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Carpathian and ilk vs. the First Amendment to the US Constitution

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Carpathian, sadly but predictably, in the face of remonstrance has continued his attempts to support ghettoising, stigmatising and silencing the voice of the Christian in public; making himself a poster-child of a clear and present danger to liberty in our time.

For example:

>>Religious activities should all be private.

Any prospects for religious conversion should be invited to listen to the message from that faith but the message itself should be a private affair.

There are parents who may not want their children exposed to certain religions or religious teachings and that barrier to religion should be considered a fundamental right and honored by all faiths.>>

Of course, conveniently (by redefining faith into an imagined projected blind fideism) such implicitly exempt their own faith, evolutionary materialist scientism and secular humanism and/or its fellow travellers.

But, such a mentality is strikingly at odds with the classic expression of protection of civil liberties found in the First Amendment of the US Constitution, Mother of democratic constitutions in our time. Accordingly, I replied and think that it is worthwhile to headline that response:

____________

The First Amdt, US Const
The First Amdt, US Const

>>>On the 1st Amdt US Const, starting with what Congress submitted:

Transcription of the 1789 Joint Resolution of Congress Proposing 12 Amendments to the U.S. Constitution

Congress of the United States
begun and held at the City of New-York, on
Wednesday the fourth of March, one thousand seven hundred and eighty nine.

THE Conventions of a number of the States, having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best ensure the beneficent ends of its institution.

RESOLVED by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, two thirds of both Houses concurring, that the following Articles be proposed to the Legislatures of the several States, as amendments to the Constitution of the United States, all, or any of which Articles, when ratified by three fourths of the said Legislatures, to be valid to all intents and purposes, as part of the said Constitution; viz.

ARTICLES in addition to, and Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America, proposed by Congress, and ratified by the Legislatures of the several States, pursuant to the fifth Article of the original Constitution . . . .

Article the thirdCongress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances . . . .

ATTEST,

Frederick Augustus Muhlenberg, Speaker of the House of Representatives

John Adams, Vice-President of the United States, and President of the Senate

John Beckley, Clerk of the House of Representatives.

Sam. A Otis Secretary of the Senate

Thus, we see the same grand statement style that structures the Constitution as a whole:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America . . . . [Main Body, Arts I – VII] . . . . Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth. In Witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names. . . . . [AMENDMENTS].

Such a style, of course, underscores that the part be interpreted in light of the whole in its context.

Instantly, we see an emphasis on the blessings of liberty, a theological, covenantal reference that points to the Reformation era biblically rooted understanding of the double covenant of nationhood under God and good government of the nation with the consent of the governed, equally under God. (The modern secularist notion of splitting apart God and People is alien to the frame at work, and it leads to pernicious misunderstandings.)

If there is doubt as to what Blessings of Liberty refers to, observe the Congessional proclammation of a national call to penitent prayer in May 1776, on the eve of the Declaration as already cited, which in the context of the double-covenant view is a clear acknowledgement of the emerging USA being founded under God:

May 1776 [over the name of John Hancock, first signer of the US Declaration of Indpependence] : In times of impending calamity and distress; when the liberties of America are imminently endangered by the secret machinations and open assaults of an insidious and vindictive administration, it becomes the indispensable duty of these hitherto free and happy colonies, with true penitence of heart, and the most reverent devotion, publickly to acknowledge the over ruling providence of God; to confess and deplore our offences against him; and to supplicate his interposition for averting the threatened danger, and prospering our strenuous efforts in the cause of freedom, virtue, and posterity.. . . Desirous, at the same time, to have people of all ranks and degrees duly impressed with a solemn sense of God’s superintending providence, and of their duty, devoutly to rely, in all their lawful enterprizes, on his aid and direction, Do earnestly recommend, that Friday, the Seventeenth day of May next, be observed by the said colonies as a day of humiliation, fasting, and prayer; that we may, with united hearts, confess and bewail our manifold sins and transgressions, and, by a sincere repentance and amendment of life, appease his righteous displeasure, and, through the merits and mediation of Jesus Christ, obtain his pardon and forgiveness; humbly imploring his assistance to frustrate the cruel purposes of our unnatural enemies; . . . that it may please the Lord of Hosts, the God of Armies, to animate our officers and soldiers with invincible fortitude, to guard and protect them in the day of battle, and to crown the continental arms, by sea and land, with victory and success: Earnestly beseeching him to bless our civil rulers, and the representatives of the people, in their several assemblies and conventions; to preserve and strengthen their union, to inspire them with an ardent, disinterested love of their country; to give wisdom and stability to their counsels; and direct them to the most efficacious measures for establishing the rights of America on the most honourable and permanent basis—That he would be graciously pleased to bless all his people in these colonies with health and plenty, and grant that a spirit of incorruptible patriotism, and of pure undefiled religion, may universally prevail; and this continent be speedily restored to the blessings of peace and liberty, and enabled to transmit them inviolate to the latest posterity. And it is recommended to Christians of all denominations, to assemble for public worship, and abstain from servile labour on the said day.

Then, after the key successful victories that brought the full-bore French intervention that was the strategic hinge of ultimate victory:

December 1777: FORASMUCH as it is the indispensable Duty of all Men to adore the superintending Providence of Almighty God; to acknowledge with Gratitude their Obligation to him for benefits received, and to implore such farther Blessings as they stand in Need of; And it having pleased him in his abundant Mercy not only to continue to us the innumerable Bounties of his common Providence, but also to smile upon us in the Prosecution of a just and necessary War, for the Defence and Establishment of our unalienable Rights and Liberties; particularly in that he hath been pleased in so great a Measure to prosper the Means used for the Support of our Troops and to crown our Arms with most signal success: It is therefore recommended to the legislative or executive powers of these United States, to set apart THURSDAY, the eighteenth Day of December next, for Solemn Thanksgiving and Praise; That with one Heart and one Voice the good People may express the grateful Feelings of their Hearts, and consecrate themselves to the Service of their Divine Benefactor; and that together with their sincere Acknowledgments and Offerings, they may join the penitent Confession of their manifold Sins, whereby they had forfeited every Favour, and their humble and earnest Supplication that it may please GOD, through the Merits of Jesus Christ, mercifully to forgive and blot them out of Remembrance; That it may please him graciously to afford his Blessing on the Governments of these States respectively, and prosper the public Council of the whole; to inspire our Commanders both by Land and Sea, and all under them, with that Wisdom and Fortitude which may render them fit Instruments, under the Providence of Almighty GOD, to secure for these United States the greatest of all human blessings, INDEPENDENCE and PEACE; That it may please him to prosper the Trade and Manufactures of the People and the Labour of the Husbandman, that our Land may yet yield its Increase; To take Schools and Seminaries of Education, so necessary for cultivating the Principles of true Liberty, Virtue and Piety, under his nurturing Hand, and to prosper the Means of Religion for the promotion and enlargement of that Kingdom which consisteth “in Righteousness, Peace and Joy in the Holy Ghost.”[i.e. Cites Rom 14:9] [Source: Journals of the American Congress From 1774 to 1788 (Washington: Way and Gideon, 1823), Vol. I, pp. 286-287 & II, pp. 309 – 310.]

By the next year, we see in the 1778 Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union (which would be fought over in the 1860’s in a bloody civil war pivoting on the contradictions and compromises brought about by tolerating slavery):

And Whereas it hath pleased the Great Governor of the World to incline the hearts of the legislatures we respectively represent in Congress, to approve of, and to authorize us to ratify the said Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union. Know Ye that we the undersigned delegates, by virtue of the power and authority to us given for that purpose, do by these presents, in the name and in behalf of our respective constituents, fully and entirely ratify and confirm each and every of the said Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union . . . . In Witness whereof we have hereunto set our hands in Congress. Done at Philadelphia in the State of Pennsylvania the ninth day of July in the Year of our Lord One Thousand Seven Hundred and Seventy-Eight, and in the Third Year of the independence of America.

In short, the double covenant view I am putting on the table is not a mere idiosyncrasy to be brushed aside as of no significance. Instead, the persistent refusal to acknowledge easily documented well-founded historic and legal-covenantal truth is what needs to answer to some serious questions.

In that context, dating the US Constitution in terms of both The Year of our Lord AND of the independence of the US gives a big hint as to the significance of the already cited declaration of Independence. Indeed, the Constitution patently set out to deliver on new reformed government under God that would hold the legitimacy envisioned in the second paragraph of the declaration, viz:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, [cf Rom 1:18 – 21, 2:14 – 15, 13:1 – 10], that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. –That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . .

Note, the context of understanding law espoused is stated in the first paragraph: “the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God.”

That puts Blackstone’s point and that of Locke citing Hooker up-front, centre. Let us again cite Blackstone, as this was the primary legal textbook of reference in the era in question and for a century and more beyond:

Man, considered as a creature, must necessarily be subject to the laws of his creator, for he is entirely a dependent being . . . consequently, as man depends absolutely upon his maker for every thing, it is necessary that he should in all points conform to his maker’s will. This will of his maker is called the law of nature. For as God, when he created matter, and endued it with a principle of mobility, established certain rules for the perpetual direction of that motion; so, when he created man, and endued him with freewill to conduct himself in all parts of life, he laid down certain immutable laws of human nature, whereby that freewill is in some degree regulated and restrained, and gave him also the faculty of reason to discover the purport of those laws . . . These are the eternal, immutable laws of good and evil, to which the creator himself in all his dispensations conforms; and which he has enabled human reason to discover, so far as they are necessary for the conduct of human actions. Such among others are these principles: that we should live honestly [NB: cf. Exod. 20:15 – 16], should hurt nobody [NB: cf. Rom 13:8 – 10], and should render to every one his due [NB: cf. Rom 13:6 – 7 & Exod. 20:15]; to which three general precepts Justinian[1: a Juris praecepta sunt hace, honeste vivere. alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere. Inst, 1. 1. 3] has reduced the whole doctrine of law [and, Corpus Juris, Justinian’s Christianised precis and pruning of perhaps 1,000 years of Roman jurisprudence, in turn is the foundation of law for much of Europe].

The point should be clear enough, but to clench it over, let us note the precedent of the Dutch DoI of 1581 under William the Silent of Orange and against Phillip II of Spain, which was directly influenced by Vindiciae of 1579, and which makes it plain that Natural Law was understood in a specifically Christian [in fact Calvinist] context and used in the first modern declaration of independence in an unmistakeable way:

. . . a prince is constituted by God to be ruler of a people, to defend them from oppression and violence as the shepherd his sheep; and whereas God did not create the people slaves to their prince, to obey his commands, whether right or wrong, but rather the prince for the sake of the subjects (without which he could be no prince), to govern them according to equity, to love and support them as a father his children or a shepherd his flock, and even at the hazard of life to defend and preserve them. And when he does not behave thus, but, on the contrary, oppresses them, seeking opportunities to infringe their ancient customs and privileges . . . then he is no longer a prince, but a tyrant, and the subjects are to consider him in no other view . . . This is the only method left for subjects whose humble petitions and remonstrances could never soften their prince or dissuade him from his tyrannical proceedings; and this is what the law of nature dictates for the defense of liberty, which we ought to transmit to posterity, even at the hazard of our lives. [–> note the direct parallel to the preamble, US Const] . . . . So, having no hope of reconciliation, and finding no other remedy, we have, agreeable to the law of nature in our own defense, and for maintaining the rights, privileges, and liberties of our countrymen, wives, and children, and latest posterity from being enslaved by the Spaniards, been constrained to renounce allegiance to the King of Spain, and pursue such methods as appear to us most likely to secure our ancient liberties and privileges [–> note the direct parallel to the US DoI].

Now, in that light let us look with fresh insights at the 3rd article in the Congressional Resolution of March 4 1789, latterly known as the 1st Amdt US Const:

>>Article the third… Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;>>

1 –> Congress resolves and submits to the people for their ratification.

2 –> There shall be no grand federal landeskirk of the united states, building on the principle of Westphalia 1648 of locality in religion, adjusted to republican circumstances and with better protection of dissenters.

3 –> at this time of course something like nine of the thirteen states had established local state churches, the free exercise clause specifically protected freikirke.

4 –> Thus the letter by Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists of Connecticut, is properly to be understood as affirming that Jefferson respected this as setting up a wall of protection for freedom of conscience, worship and religion from interference by the state, especially the state in alliance with a grand landeskirk or some unholy cartel of such at state level.

5 –> In our time, where evolutionary materialist, scientism based secular humanism and its fellow travellers constitute a de facto anti-church cartel, American Dissenting Christians face precisely that kind of interference that this clause was intended to be a bulwark against.

>>or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press;>>

6 –> Notice, freedom to speak and to publish through media are protected in exactly the context of freedom of faith and its expression.

7 –> Yes, the primary sort of speech and publication being protected is just what Carpathian and others of like ilk would trammel, stigmatise, ghettoise and censor in the name of protecting their ears and eyes from being reminded of Him who they are fain to forget and dismiss.

8 –> The irony of this is itself a rebuke to such a radical secularism.

>> or the right of the people peaceably to assemble,>>

9 –> This is of course, again in the direct context of religious expression with application to general expression.

10 –> Peaceful assembly implies in homes, in houses of worship, in public spaces, on the streets so long as the assembly be not riotous or a mob seeking to threaten.

11 –> And, again, Carpathian and ilk are found in the lists as enemies of freedom. A sad but not unexpected irony.

>> and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances>>

12 –> As in, it was a grievance that the Constitution did not sufficiently and explicitly protect Dissenters from encroachment by potentially hostile establishments that led these to champion a bill of amendments culminating in this one as first in the list.

13 –> So, again, we find the despised evangelicals helping to build liberty.

14 –> And, the power to petition challenges the Laodicean, self-satisfied mentality of power elites that tend to lock out unwelcome voices and views. (As in, Jesus at the church door, knocking and asking to be let in . . . instead of simply forcing his way in while posing on his authority as Lord of the church; as strong a statement of Divine respect for human freedom as one can ever find, even freedom to follow a march of folly.)

It is high time for fresh thinking.>>>

_____________

We need to understand what we are facing, and we need to realise that given what is happening on the ground all around us, this is not just an isolated crank, but someone blurting out without full understanding, an agenda — nay, “a long train of abuses and usurpations . . .” —  that is clearly increasingly manifest in our time.

We need to wake up and act decisively in defence of liberty, or we will be the generation that fails in the long and sometimes challenging relay of passing the blessings of liberty to remotest posterity. END

Comments
harry, Sorry. I've witnessed in person so many people claim that Obama is a Muslim/Kenyan/communist/Nazi, that it's hard to tell the jokes from the straight lines.daveS
July 25, 2015
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Zachriel, daveS, Learn to detect a joke. It isn't Obama's stupid sputtering when he doesn't have a teleprompter that demonstrates he isn't a Christian.harry
July 25, 2015
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harry,
Obama himself slipped up and inadvertently admitted he wasn't a christian:
Goodness. Do you believe he was born in Kenya also? Kenya bids 'welcome home' to President ObamadaveS
July 25, 2015
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harry: Obama himself slipped up and inadvertently admitted he wasn’t a christian : Gee whiz. People were saying he was Muslim, and McCain hadn't gone there. That's called a slip of the tongue.Zachriel
July 25, 2015
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Zachriel, Obama himself slipped up and inadvertently admitted he wasn't a christian: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMUgNg7aD8Mharry
July 25, 2015
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StephenB: On the contrary, if your read the first amendment carefully, you will notice that all the restrictions are aimed and government–none are aimed at the Christian religion But that wasn't the precept of harry's statement, which was if Christians could enact any legislation they wanted. Historically, Christians have enforced religious conformity, often killing one another over arcane differences of dogma. Case in point: harry: Obama, our godless-social-engineer-in-chief, insists he’s a Christian when that serves is political purposes. Ah, no True Christian™. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IN05jVNBs64Zachriel
July 25, 2015
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Zachriel,
More than 90% of the U.S. Congress is Christian, with most of the remainder made up of other religious adherents, such as Judaism and Islam.
Yeah, and even Obama, our godless-social-engineer-in-chief, insists he's a Christian when that serves his political purposes.harry
July 25, 2015
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harry: "If the Christians prevailed politically in the United States and could enact any legislation they wanted, there wouldn’t then be laws forcing everyone to attend a Christian church." Zachriel
That is contrary to history. The very reason for the First Amendment was to prevent a repeat of past periods of religious compulsion and all that entailed in terms of persecution and violence.
On the contrary, Zachriel, harry is right. If your read the first amendment carefully, you will notice that all the restrictions are aimed and government--none are aimed at the Christian religion: "Congress shall pass no law with respect to the establishment of religion" etc. In other words, when it comes to religion, the government is to keep its grimy hands off of it. The founders avoided two extremes, radical separation of God and government (secularism) and radical union of God and government (theocracy), proposing instead an intersection of God and government. Hence, God grants natural rights based on the natural moral law. Accordingly, Christianity is the only world view that teaches the inherent dignity of the human person and the attendant freedom of religious expression on the grounds that humans are made in the image and likeness of God. No other worldly institution or religion recognizes that formula. Not even the United Nations, and certainly not Islam.StephenB
July 25, 2015
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kairosfocus: have you taken a few moments to actually read the OP and look at the sources cited? tl;dr kairosfocus: Absent that, your remarks will simply reflect the prejudices and indoctrinations of our day that turn on frankly suppression of history that does not fit the favoured narrative. Fallacy, non sequitur. ETA: Okay, we scanned your original post, but it doesn't seem to address the point we raised. Perhaps you could summarize your specific objections to our claim that Christians have enforced religious conformity in the past.Zachriel
July 25, 2015
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F/N: Observe how studiously the original state documents -- yes, even the calls to prayer that show context for the Blessings of Liberty and for seeing the underlying double covenant view of nationhood and government under God the author of rights and reference point for justice, were state issued documents -- cited and contextualised in the OP above are being side-stepped. Also, let us see how the line by line breakdown of Article the third has not been cogently addressed. That speaks volumes. KFkairosfocus
July 25, 2015
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Zachriel, have you taken a few moments to actually read the OP and look at the sources cited? Absent that, your remarks will simply reflect the prejudices and indoctrinations of our day that turn on frankly suppression of history that does not fit the favoured narrative. I simply highlight, what is a right, how is such founded beyond might and manipulation make 'right' and how does that speak to the issues highlighted by the US Const 1st Amdt, 1789 and onward the DoI of 1776. KFkairosfocus
July 25, 2015
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Carpathian: I don’t want laws based on a religion I don’t adhere to. As long as the law has a valid secular purpose, then it can generally pass muster. Someone may vote for a law against murder on religious grounds citing Exodus, and someone else may vote for it on practical grounds, while the courts could uphold the law as having a valid secular purpose.Zachriel
July 25, 2015
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harry: If the Christians prevailed politically in the United States and could enact any legislation they wanted, there wouldn’t then be laws forcing everyone to attend a Christian church. That is contrary to history. The very reason for the First Amendment was to prevent a repeat of past periods of religious compulsion and all that entailed in terms of persecution and violence. harry: Under the current “atheocracy,” other faith-based belief systems, and certainly Christianity, are banned from the public school system while atheistic indoctrination is promulgated freely in public schools. You seem to be conflating atheism with secularism. A religious society can have a secular government. harry: Christianity is being driven from the public square altogether... This situation would also change if the Christians prevailed politically. More than 90% of the U.S. Congress is Christian, with most of the remainder made up of other religious adherents, such as Judaism and Islam. harry: in some states, one’s minor daughter can be counseled to obtain an abortion by total strangers without her parents’ knowledge or consent. Let's try an experiment. Try to look at the contrary view for a moment, even if you don't agree with it. Can you explain why such laws have been considered necessary?Zachriel
July 25, 2015
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Carpathian,
My point is that my problem is with religions, not God. I don’t want laws based on a religion I don’t adhere to. No one should have to live with that.
If the Christians prevailed politically in the United States and could enact any legislation they wanted, there wouldn't then be laws forcing everyone to attend a Christian church. There wouldn't then be laws forcing people to become Christians. There wouldn't be laws against many activities Christians consider immoral. Aquinas, believing that human law must allow some evils to exist for the sake of the greater good, put it this way: "Human laws leave many things unpunished, which according to the Divine judgment are sins." Christians recognize that the purpose of law is not to control everything (which is more than can be said for the godless social engineers currently running the country), and that enacting laws against some activities that Christians consider to be immoral would be ridiculous and unenforceable. Wisdom permits, but does not approve of such things. There would be laws prohibiting taking the life of an innocent human being, i.e., the protection of law would be restored to the child in the womb. This was the case for over a hundred years in the United States. There would still be laws against theft, fraud, needlessly endangering the lives of others, and so on. We would call this state of affairs enforcing the natural law where it makes sense for the state to enforce it. You could call it whatever you wanted to call it. Nobody I know wants a theocracy. Much worse than that is the current "atheocracy." Under it, in some states, one's minor daughter can be counseled to obtain an abortion by total strangers without her parents' knowledge or consent. She may then get an abortion without her parents' knowledge or consent. Sometimes these abortions are botched and end up not only taking the life of one's grandchild, but the life of one's daughter as well. It wouldn't be that way if the Christians prevailed politically. There is not and can never be proof that God doesn't exist. That belief must be taken on faith. So atheism is a faith-based belief system. Under the current "atheocracy," other faith-based belief systems, and certainly Christianity, are banned from the public school system while atheistic indoctrination is promulgated freely in public schools. Christianity is being driven from the public square altogether. This is because atheism has become the de facto state religion and is hostile to other faith-based belief systems. This state of affairs is blatantly contrary to the First Amendment. This situation would also change if the Christians prevailed politically. Some kind of morality will be imposed upon the public by law. In the case of the "atheocracy," blatant immorality is also imposed upon the public. The "atheocracy" attempts to coerce people into paying for and/or participating in that which its godless social engineers know good and well violates the deepest convictions of these people. This is all government is to them: the means by which they impose their godless social engineering upon others. They would never admit it, but their attitude is: "Too bad for you if we convince your frightened teenager that the only solution to her problem is to get an abortion. Too bad for you if you consider that the murder of your grandchild. Too bad for you if the abortion is botched and we kill your daughter, too. All that matters is the implementation of our social engineering. We know what is best, not you. Quite frankly, you are nothing but another whining, bleating member of the human herd we have to manage."harry
July 24, 2015
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Seversky, an obvious red herring led away to a strawman distortion in pursuit of a turnabout accusation; indeed it is a blatant falsehood on the relevant history . . . as you know or should know. KFkairosfocus
July 24, 2015
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It sounds like the only religion that should be granted freedom is evangelical Protestantism.Seversky
July 24, 2015
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"God can talk to me any time he wants and nothing could stop him, including churches. The reason I mention churches is that since a church can’t stop God from talking to me, then churches are not required to communicate with God. My point is that my problem is with religions, not God." All of that is totally irrelevant. It is true that you are putty in God's hand and He can and will do with you as He pleases regardless of what you think or don't think of Him, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the point that freedom requires you to tolerate religious expression. Being the totalitarian that you are, you would take away the right of others to practice their religion in the public square. You and Stalin are brothers and you don't even realize it. Such is the dullness of thought brought on by the neglect of your creator.Florabama
July 24, 2015
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Carpathian, you need to soberly compare what you have said above and elsewhere with the actual text and context of Amdt 1; bearing in mind that it is clear that a lot of judicial decisions in recent decades will not stand that light -- to the point of now beginning to mount up as "a long train of abuses and usurpations" . . . 1857 was not the only time that happened. Once you do so, you will see precisely why the concern raised above has been made. All I will further say for the moment, is that the lessons of history are written in blood and tears; if we refuse to learn or willfully ignore them, we will have to pay much the same price to learn them again. And, I say that as someone whose very name has 1,000 years of history written into it, including judicial murder of a relative for daring to speak up as a legislator of Christian conscience and concern. Yes, even my very name is warning me when I see the sort of attitudes you have been surfacing. KF PS: Let me add a PS, noting first that I have already outlined how so much of the law of liberty we profess to support traces to precisely the Judaeo-Christian heritage that C so patently despises and demands to reject its moral frame of reference as an influence on the public, much less law. Here, we may see Locke, laying the ideas foundations for what would become modern liberty and democracy, by again citing "the judicious [Anglican Canon Richard] Hooker" in his Ecclesiastical Polity as he builds on the created equally in the image- of- God/ neighbour-love principle of Moshe, Jesus, and Paul, highlighting from Aristotle that indeed even the pagans sense the force of the law written on their hearts:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man’s hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. [–> Thus, we most easily perceive and regard this duty when owed to us, now we must see that others of like duty are owed the same . . . where our evident natural constitution, our surrounding world and our interior life join together in speaking to us through heart, mind and conscience, but are we inclined to listen?] From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [[Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [[Eccl. Polity,preface, Bk I, “ch.” 8, p.80]
The real alternative to such -- as is increasingly manifest all around, is might and manipulation make 'right.'kairosfocus
July 24, 2015
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liljenborg:
It will be a factor in the laws we seek to pass and the society we are a part of building.
There's the problem. I don't want laws based on a religion I don't adhere to. No one should have to live with that.Carpathian
July 24, 2015
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Florabama:
They would destroy all individual freedom to prevent their ears from hearing of the God they hate.
God can talk to me any time he wants and nothing could stop him, including churches. The reason I mention churches is that since a church can't stop God from talking to me, then churches are not required to communicate with God. My point is that my problem is with religions, not God.Carpathian
July 24, 2015
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Carpathian:
making himself a poster-child of a clear and present danger to liberty in our time.
Seriously? I am all for liberty, yours and mine. If those liberties come into conflict, we have to compromise. As an example, if you open a school day with a prayer, the only proper way to ensure free religious expression is to allow all religions the same freedom to start that day with prayer. That means on day 1, we could have a Jewish prayer, day 2 a Christian one, day 3 a Muslim one, day 4 a Hindu one, day 6 a Buddhist one, etc. Once a round is complete, an atheist should be allowed to start the day with a presentation that religions tend not to be literally true and that no one will actually die in hell for not accepting a particular prophet's teachings. This of course would only be allowed with the consent of the parents whose "consent" allows government the power to govern. Is that fair?Carpathian
July 24, 2015
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"Carpathian and ilk" are just the latest face of the same old godless tyranny that has manifested itself throughout the ages since the fall of man until today. They would destroy all individual freedom to prevent their ears from hearing of the God they hate. But these tyrants don't realize that it was their oppression that brought us the greatest leaps in freedom as expressed in the Reformation, Mayflower Compact, Magna Carta and the Constitution of the United States. Perhaps this latest resurgence of the same old face of tyranny will bring a new expression of true freedom that will take its place in the the line of these greatest expressions of God given human rights.Florabama
July 24, 2015
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Carpathian is only following the traditions of the Supreme Court in their interpretation of the establishment clause of the first amendment: You can't have prayer in public school classrooms. You can't open a public school sporting event with a prayer. You can't allow a valedictorian at a public school graduation credit his faith as a factor in his success. A church can't rent a public school gymnasium. A group of churches can't use a public park for a Christian music concert. A Bible study can't meet in a public library. A home (private) Bible study that takes up too much parking on a public road can be shut down. A preacher on a public sidewalk can be asked to leave. A display of a cross on public parkland must be removed. A nativity scene cannot be erected at a public building. The Ten Commandments cannot be displayed at a public courthouse. To summarize: you cannot be a Christian in public. The "free exercise thereof" line simply becomes a bunch of throwaway words since many "exercises" of religion, from soup kitchens to inspirational concerts cannot be performed in settings where no other people are present. Human beings are social creatures. Much of what we do happens to be "public", that is, with other people. Those of us for whom our relationship with God is the most important factor of our lives will, necessarily, live out that relationship in our public relationships and activities. The primary features of the Christian life are #1 Love God and #2 Love others. This will work out in how we treat our bosses, our coworkers, our employees, our teachers, our students, our children, our neighbors, the sick, the imprisoned, even the homeless beggar on the street corner. It will be a factor in the laws we seek to pass and the society we are a part of building. You cannot privatize the inherent value a Christian must put on other human lives. There is a reason a society based on individual rights and freedoms, like America, did not come into existence in polytheistic Rome, Hindu India, or Confucianist China, communist Russia, or Nazi Germany. Because the only the religious/philosophical foundation of Protestant Christianity will get you there. None of those "self evident" truths about equality and rights found in America's founding documents are in any way evident in the polytheistic, pantheistic, or naturalistic worldviews of those other societies.liljenborg
July 24, 2015
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kairosfocus:
We need to understand what we are facing, and we need to realise that given what is happening on the ground all around us, this is not just an isolated crank, but someone blurting out without full understanding, an agenda — nay, “a long train of abuses and usurpations . . .” — that is clearly increasingly manifest in our time. We need to wake up and act decisively in defence of liberty, or we will be the generation that fails in the long and sometimes challenging relay of passing the blessings of liberty to remotest posterity.
There is no doubt that "We need to wake up and act decisively in defense of liberty." The first step in that process, for believers anyway, is to make a realistic assessment of what we are up against. And just what are we up against?
And the devil took him up, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, and said to him, "To you I will give all this authority and their glory; for it has been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will. If you, then, will worship me, it shall all be yours." And Jesus answered him, "It is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve.'" -- Luke 4:5-8
Note that Christ doesn't correct the devil with, "The kingdoms of the world and their authority are not yours to give to me or anyone else." How did the kingdoms of the world and their authority come to belong to the devil? The devil asserts, and Christ doesn't dispute his assertion, that they have been "delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will." How did they get delivered into the devil's hands? Well, God honors the free will of man. Misuse of our free will is what empowers the devil and hands these things over to the one whom Christ referred to as "the prince of this world." I point this out to make clear that we are engaged in what is essentially a spiritual battle. It is one that most likely will increasingly become a temporal battle as well, but if our efforts do not spring from prayer and submission to the will of God, if our commander is not the "commander of the army of the Lord" (Josh 5:14) we are doomed to fail. Apart from our unity under the leadership of Christ, we will never conquer the prince of the world on his own turf. If we, on our own strength, by our own wits, playing by worldly rules and using worldly strategy, take on the prince of this world, we are doomed. To the extent that we boldly serve and prayerfully obey the commander of the army of the Lord, we will prevail. To the extent that we do this we take back what has been delivered into the hands of the prince of this world. Remember this:
And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." -- Mt 28:18
The prince of this world is powerless before our unity in submission to the One to Whom all authority genuinely belongs. He Who is within us is greater than he who is in the world. (1 Jn 4:4). When we submit to His leadership we battle not with our own strength but with His. Christian political activity that doesn't spring from prayer and isn't determined to let Christ lead it, is doomed to fail in the long run. The prince of this world is clever, and will grant us a transient victory occasionally just to keep us fighting him with our own strength. We only battle with the strength of Christ when we wholeheartedly submit to and are unified under His leadership. As Christ Himself pointed out, our unity in Him is how the world will know it was God Who sent Him into the world. I think the world will come to realize this because He reveals His omnipotence through the unity of Christians who "hunger and thirst for justice." Christian activists united under His leadership, determined to serve Christ in this way, by His strength, would change the world.harry
July 24, 2015
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Carpathian and ilk vs the First Amdt, US Const, 1789kairosfocus
July 24, 2015
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