Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Two or More Replaced with More Than Three


Those who don’t get the two-or-more reference should look it up. For those interested in the more-than-three reference, check out the following from CBS news about the Capistrano home Bible-study dustup.

MISSION VIEJO (CBS) — An Orange County couple has been ordered to stop holding a Bible study in their home on the grounds that the meeting violates a city ordinance as a “church” and not as a private gathering.

Homeowners Chuck and Stephanie Fromm, of San Juan Capistrano, were fined $300 earlier this month for holding what one city official called “a regular gathering of more than three people” that requires a conditional use permit, according to Pacific Justice Institute, the couple’s legal representation.

The Fromms also reportedly face subsequent fines of $500 per meeting for any further “religious gatherings” in their home…

Denyse can correct me if I’m wrong, but as I understand it, Canada has hate-speech laws, but there seems to be one exception: hate speech against conservative, traditional Christians, both Catholic and Protestant, is never targeted by the authorities.

What does this have to do with Darwinism and ID? If you can’t figure it out, there is no point in trying to explain it.

Here’s the final irony:

The city of San Juan Capistrano was founded as a mission in the late 1700s by Catholic priest Junipero Serra, who established a local chapel that remains the oldest standing building in California.

Officials with San Juan Capistrano did not respond to requests for comment.

Because they (and News) would rather feel persecuted. It can be quite a satisfying state psychologically. Some people are not happy unless they are feeling persecuted. Timbo
Help, help! I'm being repressed! Prof. FX Gumby
How do you know what the motivation was behind this? How do you know that secularists were involved? Remember too, that Orange County is quite a conservative county in California. Chances are many local government officials are anything but secularists (bureaucrats, perhaps). I do not think there is the slightest bit of evidence that this is "another instance" but an example of jumping to the wrong conclusions. Again, nobody doubts that this is not a good situation, but drawing false conclusions is not doing ID much good here. woodford
"if" not "is." Sorry for not proofing Collin
The ordinance is discriminatory, but I can't imagine that it's intentionally so. It discriminates against gatherings affiliated with a group as opposed to those that aren't. It just wasn't thought out well. It would equally discriminate against the League of Bible Study Haters meeting in the same home. ScottAndrews
I don't think it's unconstitutional to have reasonable restrictions, but is people are walking to the house and they are quiet, then the statute is unconstitutional. Besides, the statute says "3 or more." That's worse than China, imho. Collin
It is not viewpoint discrimination. Viewpoinst discrimination would be if someone deleted or otherwise suppressed Grumby's comment. Refutation is not discrimination. No one is saying that the neighbor can't have a Koran study group or a secular humanist gathering. And no one that I know of has ever claimed, in support of ID, that Darwinism should not be allowed to be taught. Just that doubts about Darwinism and ID should be allowed to be taught if the parents and teachers so desire. Collin
Where is your evidence that the neighbor, citing office, or city representatives are secularists? DrREC
Let me spell it out: Some people are so afraid of the idea of a god that they will actively thwart any idea that may tend to support the idea of a god. Theists don't have this problem so they are open to the idea of intelligent design which may support (but not prove) the existence of a god. So the motivation behind the suppression of ID is the same motivation behind the suppression of a bible study in a house: some people can't stand the idea of god. So GilDogen is right to point out another instance that shows the intolerance of these secularists. Collin
More than three in this case is twenty and fifty, once a week respectively. Apparently neighbors did complain. "Stephanie Fromm hosts a Bible study on Wednesdays that draws about 20 people, while Chuck Fromm’s Sunday-morning gathering draws as many as 50." "Capistrano’s code-enforcement department is reactive, meaning officers only respond to complaints." http://www.thecapistranodispatch.com/view/full_story/15491252/article-Capistrano-Couple-in-Legal-Battle-for-Hosting-Bible-Study-in-Home?instance=eye_on_sjc Wonder why they didn't just apply for the exemption/permit, if there is enough parking, fire exits in the building being used, etc., to host such an event. DrREC
If there are 50 people coming to the house for every meeting, and parking is limited and overwhelmed, then maybe the neighbours have something to complain about. SCheesman
Assuming you are referring to the movie Expelled, which of course is about the academic environment, that has even less to do with this particular case. Again, where is the evidence in this particular case that Darwinism was involved? Everybody here is fond of saying "let's follow the evidence", but where is the evidence in this case for the conclusion you are making? woodford
Prof.FX Gumby is merely presenting the other side of the story, the alternative viewpoint, and exercising his right to free speech. Why do you feel that the right to free speech should only apply to you - why are you so keen to engage in viewpoint discrimination? DrBot
But, honestly, does it really have anything to do with Darwinism and ID?
Here's a one-word explanation: Expelled GilDodgen
British Columbia Man Faces Six Months in Jail for Growing Food http://www.treehugger.com/files/2011/07/bc-man-faces-six-months-in-jail-for-growing-food.php Enezio E. De Almeida Filho
Prof. FX Gumby Really now! You know or full well should know that the issue at stake in both cases is freedom of speech for causes unpopular with elites and power brokers; by which rule games are being played to tilt the field and censor out what is not desired, knowing here that Christians will not riot. As to the snide attempt to conflate design thought and Christian thinking with a cluster of terms that are code for "right wing theocracy," that speaks volumes, none of it good. You know or should full well know that the roots of the design inference lie in the likes of Plato, and that the inference to design is an inference to a causal process, not to any particular designer. But of course post Lewontin, materialists have to try something to project the a priorism that has been so unwittingly revealed. A timeout for examination of the Weak Argument Correctives under the resources tab, is in order. GEM of TKI kairosfocus
Even if you swing both ways? paragwinn
either way, unconstitutional Collin
What does this have to do with Darwinism and ID? If you can’t figure it out, there is no point in trying to explain it.
It's easy really. This is a case of the secular authorities persecuting "conservative, traditional Christians", just like they persecute the conservative, traditional Christian ideas of ID. Prof. FX Gumby
Since this account is coming through the mainstream media, are you sure you can trust their reporting? paragwinn
Orgies would fall under fraternal organizing, so if you were meeting on a regular basis, you would still need a permit. paragwinn
Gil: "What does this have to do with Darwinism and ID? If you can’t figure it out, there is no point in trying to explain it." If this is all true as stated, then of course it's a violation of personal liberty. But, honestly, does it really have anything to do with Darwinism and ID? Is there truly even a scrap of evidence that somehow the "Darwin lobby" had a part in this? Or that there some form of Christian persecution is taking part? I don't know, perhaps it's just some disgruntled neighbor with an axe to grind? I don't think if the Darwin Illuminati would dare set foot in Orange County... woodford
Unbelievable! You can have orgies, but heaven forbid you study the Bible! Blue_Savannah
Neil, We'll see. It will be interesting to find out how many other, non-religious, "more-than-three" private home gatherings have been targeted with citations and fines by Capistrano city officials. GilDodgen
There isn't enough information in the cited report. My guess is that this has nothing to do with Darwinism, ID, religion, anti-religion, etc. This is the sort of thing that you see in some upscale communities whose residents want to keep the community quiet, and are objecting because they think that to allow this would set a precedent that would allow other activity that they are trying to keep out. Personally, I would not want to live in that kind of restrictive community. Neil Rickert
While I understand that the state of California is in dire straits financially, this form of revenue collection is completely idiotic. Barb

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