Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Why is Dawkins making this so easy for us?

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

For some, apparently Richard Dawkins is their guide to life, death and eternity.

Here’s Dawkins on the Bible, supplied by UD News:

 DAWKINS: The evidence [Jesus] existed is surprisingly shaky. The earliest books in the New Testament to be written were the Epistles, not the Gospels. It’s almost as though Saint Paul and others who wrote the Epistles weren’t that interested in whether Jesus was real.

PLAYBOY: You’ve read the Bible.

DAWKINS: I haven’t read it all, but my knowledge of the Bible is a lot better than most fundamentalist Christians’.

Here’s the apostle Paul, author of 13 or perhaps 14 (the authorship book of Hebrews is uncertain) of the 27 books of the New Testament:

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, … , And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. – 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, 17-18.

Got that?  Let me make it easier for you.

 The apostle Paul: If Jesus didn’t live, die and rise again, then we’re all damned.

Dawkins: Of course, Paul wasn’t really that bothered about whether Jesus existed. Trust me, I know the Bible really well.

How about some others who wrote the epistles? Let’s try John, who comes next, having written 5 books in the New Testament, including 3 letters. John’s made this one a really difficult one for us, by failing to raise the whole subject of Jesus’ coming as a true human being until the first lines of his first letter:

 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life—the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us – that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ. And we are writing these things so that our 1 joy may be complete.  – 1 John 1:1-4

The whole purpose of 1 John was to refute false teachers amongst the churches who taught that the Christ had not really come as a true human being…. and hence 1 John is full to bursting with lines like these:

By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already. – 1 John 4:2-3

Got that one?

The apostle John: Those who do not believe in the coming of Jesus as a true human being are the spawn of Satan.

Dawkins: John didn’t really care about whether Jesus was here or not. Was scarcely on his radar. Really, I’ve studied the Bible quite hard, you can trust me on this one.

How about the leader of the apostles, Peter – who wrote two letters and is reputed to be the main source for the gospel of Mark?

Therefore I intend always to remind you of these qualities, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have. I think it right, as long as I am in this body, to stir you up by way of reminder, since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ made clear to me. And I will make every effort so that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things. For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,” we ourselves heard this very voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain. -2 Peter 1:12-18

 You get the drill by now…

 The apostle Peter: I saw the glory of Jesus, and heard the voice of God. This stuff isn’t made up. It’s really important that you remember that.

Dawkins: Peter hardly cared about whether there was a Jesus at all. Honestly, I’m a Bible scholar.

Those dozing in the passenger seat might want to peer out of the window and take a look at where Dawkins is driving them. The man talks a good game, but he can’t read the map.

Why is Dawkins making it so easy for folk to spot his foolishness? It’s almost as if he’s dropping you a hint! In case Dawkins wants a further opinion from any other of the epistle-writers, then here’s Jude:

 But you must remember, beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ. They said to you, “In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions.” – Jude 17-18

Weren’t we talking about that earlier? 

 

 

Comments
The earliest of Paul's letters (probably 1st Thessalonians) was written about 50 to 55AD, twenty or so years after Christ's death and the Gospels were complete by about 90AD. Would Dawkins say "The evidence that Alexander the Great existed is surprisingly shaky"? After all, the first written account of his life was written by Plutarch some 400 years after his death. We could say the same about the "shaky evidence" for the existence of perhaps most famous people of the ancient world.StuartHarris
August 22, 2012
August
08
Aug
22
22
2012
06:36 PM
6
06
36
PM
PDT
I know Playboy like Dawkins knows the Bible.Mung
August 22, 2012
August
08
Aug
22
22
2012
04:21 PM
4
04
21
PM
PDT
Dawkins knows the Bible really well, just not what's in it.Mung
August 22, 2012
August
08
Aug
22
22
2012
04:19 PM
4
04
19
PM
PDT
On the Dawkins playboy thread these relevant links were posted by r2d3 and Gregory: Dawkins Owned By Lennox: Admits Jesus Existed - video http://youtu.be/lbLRE_SIMMU Start at 08:37 mark. On March 30/04 Dr. Paul Maier (recently retired Professor of Ancient History at Western Michigan University) said on the 100 Huntley Street telecast: “And you realize that 99.9% of scholars across the world will acknowledge that Jesus is an historical person. They may not say that Jesus is the Son of God, but they will say there was an historical figure named Jesus of Nazareth. But Tom [Harpur] has very grave doubts about this, so he claims. Now that floored me right there. Because, we have copious evidence for Jesus’ existence. If you don’t like the gospels, go to the Roman historian, Tacitus, who talks about the great fire of Rome and how Nero got blamed for it. To save himself, he blames the Christians. This Roman historian says that they are named for a Christus, who was crucified by one of our governors, Pontius Pilate. What more do you need? That quote alone would establish the historicity of Jesus. Suetonius mentions Christ in connection with the riot of those for or against Jesus across the Tiber. Pliny, the younger, Governor of Asia Minor, says that these Christians get up on Sunday morning and sing hymns to Christ as to a God. The Jewish rabbinic traditions mention Jesus of Nazareth in their own language. Whatmore do we need of witnesses? Josephus mentions Jesus twice. I want to point out that Christian faith is based upon fact and not on fiction. The problem nowadays is that so many people are trying to turn fact into fiction.” And from April 2011: Easter Discussion — Dr. Paul Maier — 1/2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBmAWwpZqXk Easter Discussion — Dr. Paul Maier — 2/2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....0& Dr. Paul Maier http://www.paulmaier.com/bornagain77
August 22, 2012
August
08
Aug
22
22
2012
03:49 PM
3
03
49
PM
PDT
Scoffing is the atheists main argument. It's surprisingly powerful, psychologically, but it tells us nothing about the truth of the matter. It only draws a laugh, like an anvil on a cartoon character.Collin
August 22, 2012
August
08
Aug
22
22
2012
01:57 PM
1
01
57
PM
PDT
As far as Paul's historical accuracy, it is interesting that not only was Paul interested in the details of Jesus, and not only does he share them, we also get to know the chain of evidence. Paul doesn't just tell us what he knows, he tells us where he got his information! It turns out that Paul got his information five years after Jesus' death, and he got his information straight from Peter and James. In addition, Paul cites eyewitnesses whom Jesus appeared to, who were still alive at the time, and presumably one could go and check the facts if one wanted. So, Paul got his information about Jesus only 5 years after his death, from the two people who knew him best.johnnyb
August 22, 2012
August
08
Aug
22
22
2012
01:34 PM
1
01
34
PM
PDT
Moreover, the rise of America to preeminence in science had a 'strange' correlation that new atheists certainly would not expect:
Bruce Charlton's Miscellany - October 2011 Excerpt: I had discovered that over the same period of the twentieth century that the US had risen to scientific eminence it had undergone a significant Christian revival. ,,,The point I put to (Richard) Dawkins was that the USA was simultaneously by-far the most dominant scientific nation in the world (I knew this from various scientometic studies I was doing at the time) and by-far the most religious (Christian) nation in the world. How, I asked, could this be - if Christianity was culturally inimical to science? http://charltonteaching.blogspot.com/2011/10/meeting-richard-dawkins-and-his-wife.html
In fact the negative, stifling, effect of atheism on education in America is clearly illustrated in the following study. The following study shows that the SAT (Scholastic Aptitude Test) scores for students showed a steady decline, for seventeen years from the top spot or near the top spot in the world, after the removal of prayer from the public classroom by the Supreme Court, not by public decree, in 1963. Whereas the SAT scores for private Christian schools have consistently remained at the top, or near the top, spot in the world:
The Real Reason American Education Has Slipped – David Barton – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4318930 AMERICA: To Pray Or Not To Pray - David Barton - graphs corrected for population growth http://www.whatyouknowmightnotbeso.com/graphs.html
Of related interest, as to defending the integrity of David Barton's scholarship, David Barton defends, from several recent attacks by 'friendly scholars', his scholarship for a book he wrote suggesting Thomas Jefferson held beliefs that were far more friendly to Christianity than what many 'revisionist' historians have been portraying his beliefs to be to the general public:
David Barton responds to critics during interview with Glenn Beck on GBTV - Aug, 2012 http://t.co/FPk503pp
As impressive as the preceding is to establishing Christ's positive 'actual, real' impact on human culture, and on modern science, for the better, I find the greatest proof for the authenticity of Christ's 'actual, real' resurrection from the dead and ascension into heaven, from modern science itself, and not from historical arguments on the authenticity of scripture (as impressive as it has become), or on Christ's impact on culture throughout history (as impressive at that is), I find that Christ's resurrection from the dead, although it should not even be on the 'radar scope of reason', as far as the atheistic mindset is concerned, offers the best evidence for the reality of Christ. Amazingly, a very credible reconciliation to the number 1 problem in physics and mathematics today, of a 'unification of General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, is found in the resurrection event of Christ, though Christ's resurrection should be nowhere near offering such a credible solution in the atheistic mindset:
General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Entropy, and The Shroud Of Turin - updated video http://vimeo.com/34084462
i.e. when one allows God into math, as Godel indicated must ultimately be done to keep math from being 'incomplete', then there actually exists a very credible, empirically backed, reconciliation between Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity into a 'Theory of Everything'!,,, As a footnote; Godel, who proved you cannot have a mathematical ‘Theory of Everything’, without allowing God to bring 'completeness' to the 'Theory of Everything', also had this to say:
The God of the Mathematicians – Goldman Excerpt: As Gödel told Hao Wang, “Einstein’s religion [was] more abstract, like Spinoza and Indian philosophy. Spinoza’s god is less than a person; mine is more than a person; because God can play the role of a person.” – Kurt Gödel – (Gödel is considered one of the greatest logicians who ever existed) http://www.firstthings.com/article/2010/07/the-god-of-the-mathematicians
further notes:
Colossians 1:15-20 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. The End Of Christianity - Finding a Good God in an Evil World - Pg.31 William Dembski PhD. Mathematics Excerpt: "In mathematics there are two ways to go to infinity. One is to grow large without measure. The other is to form a fraction in which the denominator goes to zero. The Cross is a path of humility in which the infinite God becomes finite and then contracts to zero, only to resurrect and thereby unite a finite humanity within a newfound infinity." http://www.designinference.com/documents/2009.05.end_of_xty.pdf Philippians 2: 5-11 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Music:
Empty (Empty Cross Empty Tomb) with Dan Haseltine Matt Hammitt (Music Inspired by The Story) http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=F22MCCNU
bornagain77
August 22, 2012
August
08
Aug
22
22
2012
01:05 PM
1
01
05
PM
PDT
I would like to point out, for one thing, that greater scholarship into the Bible, and greater evidence into the authenticity of the 'historicity of Jesus' has been, as Gary Habermas has put it, 'the argument that has changed a generation of scholars'. William Lane Craig has several videos on the historicity of Jesus that tell of this wholesale shift in academic thought. As well Dr. Timothy McGrew has a excellent series of videos defending the Bible from accusations of alleged contradictions, but more intriguingly, he has a series of video lectures on 'undesigned coincidences'. Personally, to me these 'undesigned coincidences' border on being a 'supernatural watermark' on the Bible that one would expect to see for verifying the Bible's overall authenticity. For anybody interested, Craig's and McGrew's videos on these topics are easy to find on the web. But I would like to focus in on another area establishing the authenticity of Christ's resurrection, an area that I have not seen much discussed by most scholars. I would like to focus in on Christ's impact on the world since his resurrection and since his ascension into heaven.
From Josh McDowell, Evidence for Christianity, in giving examples of the influence of Jesus Christ in culture cites many examples. Here are just a few: 1. Hospitals 2. Universities 3. Literacy and education for the masses 4. Representative government 5. Separation of political powers 6. Civil liberties 7. Abolition of slavery 8. Modern science 9. The elevation of the common man 10. High regard for human life 11. (I would like to add countless millions of salvaged lives from the ravaging effects of sin, including mine)
This extremely positive effect on culture is certainly far different from what Dawkins view of what the influence of Christianity has been like for the world. 'New' atheists, like Dawkins, like to point to the Spanish inquisition and witch hunts, etc.. etc.. to try to say that atheism is a much better worldview than Christianity for the world. Yet these 'new' atheists, amazingly, forget to look in the mirror at the exponentially worse horror that was visited upon mankind in the 'utopia' atheistic regimes of the 20th century. This following video is very clear as to pointing out the extremely different 'degrees of evil' we are dealing within these atheistic and Christian cultures:
"Christian" Atrocities compared to Atheists Atrocities - Dinesh D'Souza - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmrRC6zD4Zk
,,, Since 'modern science' is claimed to be so important by new atheists, and that modern science supposedly makes Christianity completely obsolete in their way of thinking, I would like to point out that, number 1, modern science was brought to a sustained level of maturity in the matrix of Christian Theism:
Founders of Modern Science Who Believe in GOD - Tihomir Dimitrov http://www.scigod.com/index.php/sgj/article/viewFile/18/18 Christianity Gave Birth To Modern Science - Dr. Henry Fritz Schaefer - video http://vimeo.com/16523153
and Number 2, it is impossible to epistemologically justify the rational practice of science without God. Moreover,,
Kurt Gödel - Incompleteness Theorem - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/8462821 THE GOD OF THE MATHEMATICIANS - DAVID P. GOLDMAN - August 2010 Excerpt: we cannot construct an ontology that makes God dispensable. Secularists can dismiss this as a mere exercise within predefined rules of the game of mathematical logic, but that is sour grapes, for it was the secular side that hoped to substitute logic for God in the first place. Gödel's critique of the continuum hypothesis has the same implication as his incompleteness theorems: Mathematics never will create the sort of closed system that sorts reality into neat boxes. http://www.firstthings.com/article/2010/07/the-god-of-the-mathematicians Taking God Out of the Equation - Biblical Worldview - by Ron Tagliapietra - January 1, 2012 Excerpt: Kurt Gödel (1906–1978) proved that no logical systems (if they include the counting numbers) can have all three of the following properties. 1. Validity . . . all conclusions are reached by valid reasoning. 2. Consistency . . . no conclusions contradict any other conclusions. 3. Completeness . . . all statements made in the system are either true or false. The details filled a book, but the basic concept was simple and elegant. He summed it up this way: “Anything you can draw a circle around cannot explain itself without referring to something outside the circle—something you have to assume but cannot prove.” For this reason, his proof is also called the Incompleteness Theorem. Kurt Gödel had dropped a bomb on the foundations of mathematics. Math could not play the role of God as infinite and autonomous. It was shocking, though, that logic could prove that mathematics could not be its own ultimate foundation. Christians should not have been surprised. The first two conditions are true about math: it is valid and consistent. But only God fulfills the third condition. Only He is complete and therefore self-dependent (autonomous). God alone is “all in all” (1 Corinthians 15:28), “the beginning and the end” (Revelation 22:13). God is the ultimate authority (Hebrews 6:13), and in Christ are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge (Colossians 2:3). http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v7/n1/equation#
Moreover, Godel's incompleteness theory was even extended to show that 'leaps of intuition' are necessary for the advance of modern science:
Alan Turing & Kurt Godel - Incompleteness Theorem and Human Intuition - video (notes in video description) http://www.metacafe.com/watch/8516356/
And if we look for 'leaps of intuition' throughout history in modern science, as Godel showed are required, we notice a very strange pattern in regards to scientific discovery in Judeo-Christian cultures that argues strongly that Christ is 'personally' having a 'actual, real' effect on the progress of modern science in Judeo-Christian cultures: i.e. A very strong piece of suggestive evidence, which persuasively hints at a unique relationship that man has with 'The Word' of John 1:1, is found in these following articles which point out the fact that ‘coincidental scientific discoveries’ are far more prevalent than what should be expected from a materialistic perspective,:
In the Air – Who says big ideas are rare? by Malcolm Gladwell Excerpt: This phenomenon of simultaneous discovery—what science historians call “multiples”—turns out to be extremely common. One of the first comprehensive lists of multiples was put together by William Ogburn and Dorothy Thomas, in 1922, and they found a hundred and forty-eight major scientific discoveries that fit the multiple pattern. Newton and Leibniz both discovered calculus. Charles Darwin and Alfred Russel Wallace both discovered evolution. Three mathematicians “invented” decimal fractions. Oxygen was discovered by Joseph Priestley, in Wiltshire, in 1774, and by Carl Wilhelm Scheele, in Uppsala, a year earlier. Color photography was invented at the same time by Charles Cros and by Louis Ducos du Hauron, in France. Logarithms were invented by John Napier and Henry Briggs in Britain, and by Joost Bürgi in Switzerland. ,,, For Ogburn and Thomas, the sheer number of multiples could mean only one thing: scientific discoveries must, in some sense, be inevitable. http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/05/12/080512fa_fact_gladwell/?currentPage=all List of multiple discoveries Excerpt: Historians and sociologists have remarked on the occurrence, in science, of "multiple independent discovery". Robert K. Merton defined such "multiples" as instances in which similar discoveries are made by scientists working independently of each other.,,, Multiple independent discovery, however, is not limited to only a few historic instances involving giants of scientific research. Merton believed that it is multiple discoveries, rather than unique ones, that represent the common pattern in science. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_multiple_discoveries "I have a fundamental belief in the Bible as the Word of God, written by men who were inspired. I study the Bible daily…. All my discoveries have been made in an answer to prayer." — Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727), considered by many to be the greatest scientist of all time
bornagain77
August 22, 2012
August
08
Aug
22
22
2012
01:04 PM
1
01
04
PM
PDT
DA: Well said. My own retort (with link to onward discussion and vids) is in the earlier thread. Somebody didn't do their homework. KFkairosfocus
August 22, 2012
August
08
Aug
22
22
2012
11:16 AM
11
11
16
AM
PDT
I am always astounded by those who consider themselves to be at the pinnacle of human intellectual achievement yet have no qualms whatsoever about displaying the profoundest ignorance regarding what is probably the most influential book in Western civilization.sagebrush gardener
August 22, 2012
August
08
Aug
22
22
2012
10:46 AM
10
10
46
AM
PDT
Why does he make it so easy? Because pitching he's pitching a brand name: Richard Dawkins. Along with the other members of atheism's crusty boy band, "The New Atheists" (PZ Myers, Daniel Dennett, and Ben Stiller's evil twin, Sam Harris) he's found a sure way to fortune and fame: take on christianity. They've nothing new to say but they say it very well. Their musings sell in the millions so why mess with a good thing especially when the fourth estate will never hold them accountable for a single word written or said? Not that it matters. In a few short months they'll be as fondly remembered as the Dave Clark Five or Menudo.lpadron
August 22, 2012
August
08
Aug
22
22
2012
09:29 AM
9
09
29
AM
PDT
1 2 3

Leave a Reply