Will science extinguish religion?

_{Denyse O'Leary

April 17, 2016

News, Religion, Science}

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Closing our religion news coverage for the week: Ross Pomeroy asks at RealClearScience:

We are perhaps the first generation of humans to truly possess a factually accurate understanding of our world and ourselves. In the past, this knowledge was only in the hands and minds of the few, but with the advent of the Internet, evidence and information have never been so widespread and accessible. Beliefs can be challenged with the click of a button. We no longer live in closed, insular environments where a single dogmatic worldview can dominate.

As scientific evidence questions the tenets of religion, so too, does it provide a worldview to follow, one that’s infinitely more coherent. More.

Huh? What with the multiverse and Help! I don’t exist!, current science seems well on its way to being the most crackpot religion ever.

Too bad we live in a culture that believes in funding the state religion.

See also: Wayne Rossiter: No “I” in “Me” (and no sense in Sam Harris) The old atheists make a lot more sense. It’s not clear what the new atheists’ interest in science is all about, if Harris’s view is typical.

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Comments

BA @ 12
And yet, despite such a seemingly confident claim by Me Think, Me think has no scientific evidence whatsoever that mind can be generated by matter
Every drug that affects brain is evidence that mind is a consequence of brain's neural activity. Every victim of date rate drugs - which obliterate not just self consciousness but even memory of events - shows how mind is not distinct from brain. 'Spiritual' experience of k - hole and Magic Mushroom proves chemicals can alter conscious reality. Can you show any research on dualism or spirit that supports your world view that mind is different from brain ?Me_Think_{April 18, 2016
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Me Think dogmatically claims, (or more precisely, since Me Think does not actually think that he actually exists as a person, Me Think's brain dogmatically claims):
“Mind arises because of brain’s neurological activity. Without brain, there can be no mind. Mind is not a product of spirit or dualism.”
And yet, despite such a seemingly confident claim by Me Think, Me think has no scientific evidence whatsoever that mind can be generated by matter There is simply no direct evidence that anything material is capable of generating consciousness. As Rutgers University philosopher Jerry Fodor says,
"Nobody has the slightest idea how anything material could be conscious. Nobody even knows what it would be like to have the slightest idea about how anything material could be conscious. So much for the philosophy of consciousness. Regardless of our knowledge of the structure of the brain, no one has any idea how the brain could possibly generate conscious experience."
As Nobel neurophysiologist Roger Sperry wrote,
"Those centermost processes of the brain with which consciousness is presumably associated are simply not understood. They are so far beyond our comprehension at present that no one I know of has been able even to imagine their nature."
From modern physics, Nobel prize-winner Eugene Wigner agreed:
"We have at present not even the vaguest idea how to connect the physio-chemical processes with the state of mind."
Contemporary physicist Nick Herbert states,
"Science's biggest mystery is the nature of consciousness. It is not that we possess bad or imperfect theories of human awareness; we simply have no such theories at all. About all we know about consciousness is that it has something to do with the head, rather than the foot."
Physician and author Larry Dossey wrote:
"No experiment has ever demonstrated the genesis of consciousness from matter. One might as well believe that rabbits emerge from magicians' hats. Yet this vaporous possibility, this neuro-mythology, has enchanted generations of gullible scientists, in spite of the fact that there is not a shred of direct evidence to support it." David Chalmers on Consciousness (Descartes, Philosophical Zombies and the Hard Problem) – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK1Yo6VbRoo “But the hard problem of consciousness is so hard that I can’t even imagine what kind of empirical findings would satisfactorily solve it. In fact, I don’t even know what kind of discovery would get us to first base, not to mention a home run.’ David Barash – Materialist/Atheist - evolutionary biologist and professor of psychology at the University of Washington “We have so much confidence in our materialist assumptions (which are assumptions, not facts) that something like free will is denied in principle. Maybe it doesn’t exist, but I don’t really know that. Either way, it doesn’t matter because if free will and consciousness are just an illusion, they are the most seamless illusions ever created. Film maker James Cameron wishes he had special effects that good.” Matthew D. Lieberman – neuroscientist – materialist – UCLA professor "I think the idea of (materialists) saying that consciousness is an illusion doesn’t really work because the very notion of an illusion presupposes consciousness. There are no illusions unless there is a conscious experience or (a conscious person) for whom there is an illusion." Evan Thompson, Philosopher - author of Waking, Dreaming, Being
At the 23:33 minute mark of the following video, Richard Dawkins agrees with materialistic philosophers who say that: "consciousness is an illusion" A few minutes later Rowan Williams asks Dawkins ”If consciousness is an illusion…what isn’t?”. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWN4cfh1Fac&t=22m57s Moreover, contrary to Me Think's dogmatic assertion that mind arises from matter for which he has no scientific evidence whatsoever, there is much scientific evidence for the reality of mind. 'Brain Plasticity', the ability to alter the structure of the brain from a person's focused intention, has now been established by Jeffrey Schwartz, as well as among other researchers.
The Case for the Soul - InspiringPhilosophy - (4:03 minute mark, Brain Plasticity including Schwartz's work) - Oct. 2014 - video The Mind is able to modify the brain (brain plasticity). Moreover, Idealism explains all anomalous evidence of personality changes due to brain injury, whereas physicalism cannot explain mind. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBsI_ay8K70
Moreover, completely contrary to Me Think's materialistic thought, mind has been now also been shown to be able to reach all the way down and have pronounced effects on the gene expression of our bodies:
Scientists Finally Show How Your Thoughts Can Cause Specific Molecular Changes To Your Genes, - December 10, 2013 Excerpt: “To the best of our knowledge, this is the first paper that shows rapid alterations in gene expression within subjects associated with mindfulness meditation practice,” says study author Richard J. Davidson, founder of the Center for Investigating Healthy Minds and the William James and Vilas Professor of Psychology and Psychiatry at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. “Most interestingly, the changes were observed in genes that are the current targets of anti-inflammatory and analgesic drugs,” says Perla Kaliman, first author of the article and a researcher at the Institute of Biomedical Research of Barcelona, Spain (IIBB-CSIC-IDIBAPS), where the molecular analyses were conducted.,,, the researchers say, there was no difference in the tested genes between the two groups of people at the start of the study. The observed effects were seen only in the meditators following mindfulness practice. In addition, several other DNA-modifying genes showed no differences between groups, suggesting that the mindfulness practice specifically affected certain regulatory pathways. http://www.tunedbody.com/scientists-finally-show-thoughts-can-cause-specific-molecular-changes-genes/
as well there is much scientific evidence that mind can exist independently of the material brain upon death just as is held in Christianity
Near-Death Experiences: Putting a Darwinist's Evidentiary Standards to the Test - Dr. Michael Egnor - October 15, 2012 Excerpt: Indeed, about 20 percent of NDE's are corroborated, which means that there are independent ways of checking about the veracity of the experience. The patients knew of things that they could not have known except by extraordinary perception -- such as describing details of surgery that they watched while their heart was stopped, etc. Additionally, many NDE's have a vividness and a sense of intense reality that one does not generally encounter in dreams or hallucinations.,,, The most "parsimonious" explanation -- the simplest scientific explanation -- is that the (Near Death) experience was real. Tens of millions of people have had such experiences. That is tens of millions of more times than we have observed the origin of species , (or the origin of life, or the origin of a protein/gene, or a molecular machine), which is never.,,, The materialist reaction, in short, is unscientific and close-minded. NDE's show fellows like Coyne at their sneering unscientific irrational worst. Somebody finds a crushed fragment of a fossil and it's earth-shaking evidence. Tens of million of people have life-changing spiritual experiences and it's all a big yawn. Note: Dr. Egnor is professor and vice-chairman of neurosurgery at the State University of New York at Stony Brook. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/10/near_death_expe_1065301.html "A recent analysis of several hundred cases showed that 48% of near-death experiencers reported seeing their physical bodies from a different visual perspective. Many of them also reported witnessing events going on in the vicinity of their body, such as the attempts of medical personnel to resuscitate them (Kelly et al., 2007)." Kelly, E. W., Greyson, B., & Kelly, E. F. (2007). Unusual experiences near death and related phenomena. In E. F. Kelly, E. W. Kelly, A. Crabtree, A. Gauld, M. Grosso, & B. Greyson, Irreducible mind (pp. 367-421). Lanham, MD: Rowman & Littlefield. Near-death patients do see afterlife by JENNY HOPE - October 8, 2014 Excerpt: The latest study, by Southampton University researchers, suggests the mind may continue to exist after the brain has ceased to function and the body is clinically dead. The research team studied 63 survivors of a cardiac arrest who were resuscitated at Southampton General Hospital after they had been clinically dead with no pulse, no respiration and fixed dilated pupils. Independent studies have confirmed that the brain ceases to function at that time. But seven out of the 63 survivors recalled emotions and visions during their unconsciousness, says a report in the journal Resuscitation. Four patients (six per cent) met the strict criteria used to diagnose NDEs. They recalled feelings of peace and joy, of time speeding up, heightened senses, lost awareness of body, seeing a bright light, entering another world, encountering a mystical being or deceased relative and coming to a point of no return.,,, It has been suggested that the experiences are hallucinations, the result of disturbed brain chemistry caused by medication, lack of oxygen or changes in carbon dioxide levels. But Dr Parnia said there was no difference in oxygen levels or drug treatment between the heart attack survivors who had not had NDEs and those who had. 'In fact, the four patients who met the criteria for a true NDE actually had higher oxygen levels,' he added. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-24509/Near-death-patients-afterlife.html
And after blatantly ignoring the embarrassing fact that shutting down part of the brain associated with decision making leads to increased atheism, Me Think goes on to claim:
“IOW, instead of preaching “God is loving”, a better way to keep members in a religious group would be to say “You will go to hell and suffer if you don’t follow what God preaches ””
Yet. apparently contrary to what Me Think would “emotionally' prefer to believe, there is actually very strong scientific evidence for the reality of hell (and heaven):
Special Relativity and General Relativity compared to Heavenly and Hellish Near Death Experiences – video https://www.facebook.com/philip.cunningham.73/videos/vb.100000088262100/1113745045305094/?type=2&theater Entropic Concerns of Special and General Relativity and The Resurrection of Jesus Christ from the Dead is the correct solution for the “Theory of Everything” – video https://www.facebook.com/philip.cunningham.73/videos/vb.100000088262100/1121720701174195/?type=2&theater
bornagain77_{April 18, 2016
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BA77 @ 6,
That is basically the ‘opium of the masses’ claim.
If that's the way you want to interpret my comment, I have no problem.
First off, rationality itself can only be coherently based in a Theistic worldview which affirms the reality of ‘mind’.
Mind arises because of brain's neurological activity. Without brain, there can be no mind. Mind is not a product of spirit or dualism. As for,
Atheists embarrassed: study proves atheism uses less brain function – Oct 26, 2015 by Dr. Joel McDurmon
the paper that you cite Neuromodulation of Group Prejudice and Religious Belief reaches no such conclusion. Instead, it embarrasses religious groups. It concludes:
From Abstract: People cleave to ideological convictions with greater intensity in the aftermath of threat. The posterior medial frontal cortex (pMFC) plays a key role in both detecting discrepancies between desired and current conditions and adjusting subsequent behavior to resolve such conflicts. Building on prior literature examining the role of the pMFC in shifts in relatively low level decision processes, we demonstrate that the pMFC mediates adjustments in adherence to political and religious ideologies

From Page 12: Discussion: Down-regulating the pMFC via TMS significantly decreased both derogation of an “anti- U.S.” out-group member and avowed belief in God, angels, and Heaven following a reminder of death, supporting the hypothesis that the pMFC plays an important role in ideological responses to threat.
IOW, instead of preaching "God is loving", a better way to keep members in a religious group would be to say "You will go to hell and suffer if you don't follow what God preaches " Note that the posterior medial frontal cortex (pMFC) is a plausible mediator of shifts in ideological commitment. The pMFC complex includes the dorsal anterior cingulate cortex (dACC) and the dorsomedial prefrontal area anterior to the supplementary motor cortex (dmPFC), and has been linked to a wide variety of reactions to negative emotional stimuli (Etkinet al., 2011; Maier et al., 2012; Rushworth et al., 2007). The pMFC plays a key role in detecting discrepancies between desired and current conditions, and adjusting subsequent behavior during decision-making tasks (Bush et al., 2002; Ridderinkhof et al., 2004; Shima and Tanji, 1998). In humans, the dACC component of the pMFC has been proposed to induce a compensatory increase in moral or cultural values following exposure to threats (e.g., reminders of death,uncertainty, or meaninglessness) (Proulx et al., 2012; Tritt et al., 2012). Reminders of death trigger activity in the dmPFC (Han, Qin, and Ma, 2010; Shi and Han, 2013).Me_Think_{April 18, 2016
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I don't see that. I know lots of scientists, many who are religious in traditional ways but some who are not, and I don't see them thinking of science in ways that are like how people are religious. And, FWIW, I am not religious and I am a fan of science, but I don't see any signs in me of thinking of science as my religion.Aleta_{April 18, 2016
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For many, science has become their religion.Mung_{April 18, 2016
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Science will never replace religion. They are two distinct things, with different purposes. Science is indifferent to purpose. It is indifferent to what their discoveries are used for. For every scientific discovery, man can use them to benefit humanity or to benefit individuals or groups. Nuclear physics have provided cheap power and significantly advance medicine. But it has also resulted in the nuclear bomb. Evolution has advanced medicine and agriculture but has been used to justify eugenics. Chemistry has been used to create fertilizers and pesticides that help us feed the world, but it was used in WWI to gas the enemy. Religion provides a social venue that can unify communities. It provides hope to people who are suffering. It provides a filter through which scientific discoveries should be used.Indiana Effigy_{April 18, 2016
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Ross Pomeroy: We are perhaps the first generation of humans to truly possess a factually accurate understanding of our world and ourselves. Yes, 'we' now know that 'we' are, in fact, nothing over and beyond a happenstance conglomeration of unthinking fermions and bosons. However neither fermions nor bosons nor combinations of them can be said to understand anything or exist at the level of personhood. So, Ross Pomeroy, I hate to break it to you, but it is incoherent to use terms, we now know we cannot ground, such as "we" and "understand".Origenes_{April 18, 2016
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Me think claims that,,,
“As long as humans continue to be insecure (which is forever) , religion will continue to exists.”
That is basically the 'opium of the masses' claim. In other words, Me Think basically believes that atheists are acting rationally whereas he/she believes Christians are acting emotionally rather than rationally. Yet, as with practically every other substantial claim made by atheists, that claim is patently false. First off, rationality itself can only be coherently based in a Theistic worldview which affirms the reality of 'mind'.
Sam Harris's Free Will: The Medial Pre-Frontal Cortex Did It - Martin Cothran - November 9, 2012 Excerpt: There is something ironic about the position of thinkers like Harris on issues like this: they claim that their position is the result of the irresistible necessity of logic (in fact, they pride themselves on their logic). Their belief is the consequent, in a ground/consequent relation between their evidence and their conclusion. But their very stated position is that any mental state -- including their position on this issue -- is the effect of a physical, not logical cause. By their own logic, it isn't logic that demands their assent to the claim that free will is an illusion, but the prior chemical state of their brains. The only condition under which we could possibly find their argument convincing is if they are not true. The claim that free will is an illusion requires the possibility that minds have the freedom to assent to a logical argument, a freedom denied by the claim itself. It is an assent that must, in order to remain logical and not physiological, presume a perspective outside the physical order. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/11/sam_harriss_fre066221.html (1) rationality implies a thinker in control of thoughts. (2) under materialism a thinker is an effect caused by processes in the brain (determinism). (3) in order for materialism to ground rationality a thinker (an effect) must control processes in the brain (a cause). (1)&(2) (4) no effect can control its cause. Therefore materialism cannot ground rationality. per Box UD
Moreover, it is now found that it is the Atheist, not the Christian, that is in fact acting emotionally rather than rationally.
Atheists embarrassed: study proves atheism uses less brain function – Oct 26, 2015 by Dr. Joel McDurmon Excerpt: This has to be embarrassing . . . if you’re an atheist. A new study performed at the University of York used targeted magnetism to shut down part of the brain. The result: belief in God disappeared among more than 30 percent of participants. That in itself may not seem so embarrassing, but consider that the specific part of the brain they frazzled was the posterior medial frontal cortex—the part associated with detecting and solving problems, i.e., reasoning and logic. In other words, when you shut down the part of the brain most associated with logic and reasoning, greater levels of atheism result. You’ve heard the phrase, “I don’t have enough faith to be an atheist”? Apparently we can now also say, “I have too many brains to be an atheist.” For a group that makes so much noise vaunting its superior prowess with logic and reasoning, this study has got to be quite a deflator. For a group that claims to be rooted primarily in logic and reason, and to exist for little reason other than that they have used logic and reason to free themselves from belief in God and, as they allege, superstition and fairy tales, this study is the equivalent of a public depanting—i.e., the would-be emperor’s got no clothes. http://americanvision.org/12630/atheists-embarrassed-study-proves-atheism-uses-less-brain-function/ When Atheists Are Angry at God - 2011 Excerpt: I’ve never been angry at unicorns. It’s unlikely you’ve ever been angry at unicorns either.,, The one social group that takes exception to this rule is atheists. They claim to believe that God does not exist and yet, according to empirical studies, tend to be the people most angry at him. http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2011/01/when-atheists-are-angry-at-god Study explores whether atheism is rooted in reason or emotion - Jan. 2015 Excerpt: "A new set of studies in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology finds that atheists and agnostics report anger toward God either in the past or anger focused on a hypothetical image of what they imagine God must be like. Julie Exline, a psychologist at Case Western Reserve University and the lead author of this recent study, has examined other data on this subject with identical results. Exline explains that her interest was first piqued when an early study of anger toward God revealed a counterintuitive finding: Those who reported no belief in God reported more grudges toward him than believers." https://uncommondescent.com/just-for-fun/fun-study-explores-whether-atheism-is-rooted-in-reason-or-emotion/
Appreciate this irony, Joseph Stalin, on his death bed, one of the greatest mass murderers in history, shook his fist at the God he did not believe in.
"A story I heard personally from Malcolm Muggeridge (that stirred me then and still does even yet) was his account of a conversation he had with Svetlana Stalin, the daughter of Josef Stalin. She spent some time with Muggeridge in his home in England while they were working together on their BBC production on the life of her father. According to Svetlana, as Stalin lay dying, plagued with terrifying hallucinations, he suddenly sat halfway up in bed, clenched his fist toward the heavens once more, fell back upon his pillow, and was dead." Ravi Zacharias, Can Man Live Without God, (Word Publ., Dallas: 1994), p. 26.
Of related note:
“, I maintain that whatever else faith may be, it cannot be a delusion. The advantageous effect of religious belief and spirituality on mental and physical health is one of the best-kept secrets in psychiatry and medicine generally. If the findings of the huge volume of research on this topic had gone in the opposite direction and it had been found that religion damages your mental health, it would have been front-page news in every newspaper in the land.” - Professor Andrew Sims former President of the Royal College of Psychiatrists - Is Faith Delusion?: Why religion is good for your health - preface https://books.google.com/books?id=PREdCgAAQBAJ&pg=PR11#v=onepage&q&f=false
bornagain77_{April 18, 2016
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THE INTERNET! you mean until this we were not a generation with facts at our fingertips? Oh brother. thats lame. Prove the internet has effected double digit % of humans in reflection on the universe makeup?? What facts are there against a God? all they could say is there are no facts FOR a God.! What could be against him? Likewise Genesis.Robert Byers_{April 17, 2016
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The verse. "The fool says in his heart there is no God." simply means that the atheist is fooling himself. Listen to Dawkins, he doesn't believe a bunch of the tripe he puts out. Dawkins simply refuses to admit he might be wrong. Look at him in the movie Expelled. It is like I keep telling my wife,"I may not always be right, but the Good Lord knows I'm never wrong!" Kind of sounds like the king of a city in Rome don't it?jimmontg_{April 17, 2016
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The answer is no. But religions vary tremendously, so the question is extremely vague. Science has already replaced/displaced a great number of specifics from various religions, so the better question is what roles can religions play, what specific beliefs are tenable, what aspects of religion do people find useful, etc.Aleta_{April 17, 2016
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Science can never replace religion. Religion acts like an optimism booster. It helps billions of humans believe that tomorrow will be better and that some infinite being will solve their problems. As long as humans continue to be insecure (which is forever) , religion will continue to exists.Me_Think_{April 17, 2016
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As a Christian, I am very comfortable with what science has revealed to us about the nature of reality: “It is operationally impossible to separate Reality and Information” (48:35 minute mark) “In the beginning was the Word” John 1:1 (49:54 minute mark) Prof Anton Zeilinger speaks on quantum physics. at UCT https://youtu.be/s3ZPWW5NOrw?t=2984 Theism compared to Materialism/Naturalism - an overview – video https://www.facebook.com/philip.cunningham.73/videos/vb.100000088262100/1139512636061668/?type=2&theater The Resurrection of Jesus Christ from Death as the “Theory of Everything” – video https://www.facebook.com/philip.cunningham.73/videos/vb.100000088262100/1143437869002478/?type=2&theater Verse and Music: Colossians 1:15-20 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. Steven Curtis Chapman - Lord of the Dance (Live) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDXbvMcMbU0 supplemental note Shroud of Turin: From discovery of Photographic Negative, to 3D Information, to Quantum Hologram - video https://www.facebook.com/philip.cunningham.73/videos/vb.100000088262100/1119619634717635/?type=2&theaterbornagain77_{April 17, 2016
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