Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

A note on Popular Science’s editorial tantrum = new “no comments” policy, …

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… as noted here by Nullasalus:

A politically motivated, decades-long war on expertise has eroded the popular consensus on a wide variety of scientifically validated topics. Everything, from evolution to the origins of climate change, is mistakenly up for grabs again. Scientific certainty is just another thing for two people to “debate” on television. And because comments sections tend to be a grotesque reflection of the media culture surrounding them, the cynical work of undermining bedrock scientific doctrine is now being done beneath our own stories, within a website devoted to championing science.

One way of understanding this editorial tantrum is to relate it to the transition from old to new media.

Note that the publication is not called Academic Science, it is called Popular Science. That, presumably, means dealing with the public (republic?) of regular readers with an interest in science. There will be challenges one might not have expected from within an established old boys’/girls’ club.

It used to be that commenting on stories could only be done privately. That was old media. Today, a popular medium can gain a large population of new readers with new voices, with the only cost being the staff time expense created by the need to boot trolls.

As we know, science is not in the business of “scientific certainty,” but of replicable evidence. The reader input the editors are complaining of would not be happening if the subject areas were not in a state of contention and flux, commonly called “news.”

Incidentally, speaking of states of flux, Earth’s climate usually is in just such a state, which is why dogmatism on the subject is so easy to challenge, if not ridicule. Evolution is always hostage to the next fossil dug up or the latest counter-theory genomic finding.

People who really need certainty should investigate a line of work other than science media. But maybe that decision will be made for them by the course of events.

Comments
Of course you don't know, EL. You've changed the subject, never to go back to what you so embarrassingly did. You provided a Bible passage which was supposed to vindicate your stance that the Bible commands rape, but which passage says not a single word about rape. KN points out that, even if it did, it wasn't God that commanded it. But of course, it doesn't say anything about rape in any case. Your response??? "So . . . let's talk about WLC's amoral divine command theory", which has nothing to do with rape. Hopefully people won't notice and we can drag the rubes off on another rabbit trail of insinuation and outright lies.Brent
September 27, 2013
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I just can't believe you don't understand, KN. I really mean it. There's just no excuse for not seeing what I'm getting at. In the off chance that you are on heavy cold medication or something however, the point is that YOU had to supply the rape charge above, while the text, which you said you just read, doesn't say anything about rape, or sexual slavery. Did the flying spaghetti monster tell you it was rape? Did you read the RDT Bible?Brent
September 27, 2013
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I'm lost, Brent. I honestly don't know what you are talking about. But I think I'm done arguing with KF over free-speech vs defamation. I've made my position clear, and as far as I am concerned, that's the end of it. Need a gin and tonic.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 27, 2013
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EL @39. Good work. Surely no one will notice.Brent
September 27, 2013
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Well, I’ll charitably take that as a step, KN, but you’ve also forgotten the quote marks. One wonders why YOU need to point out it was rape if it is simply a point of fact. Hmmm?
I don't understand why you're suggesting or implying here. If it's, "why didn't you correct the person on TSZ who made this claim?", it's because talking about what the Bible does or doesn't say is of little interest to me, compared to all the things that do interest me. I just took the time to look up the passage Lizzie cited, that's all. As for Kairosfocus' claims
Next ont eh subject of accusaitons of fraud, ther eis a difference between a specific case of academic dishonesty and saying blanket that somehting that is based on inductive scientific principles is a fraud in a context where this is throwing gasoline on a series of accusations that are based in a grotesque incitatory and slanderous conspiracy story.
Whereas I've made it perfectly clear that I regard design theory as an intellectual fraud because it treats a speculative hypothesis -- "perhaps intelligent design is responsible for specified complex information in living things" -- as if it were empirically confirmed. It conflates the abductive stage of inquiry -- the framing of a hypothesis -- with the inductive stage of inquiry -- where we look for empirical confirmation of the hypothesis. The fact that there's empirical confirmation for the design inference in some domains (e.g. forensics, archeology) tell us nothing about whether it is empirically confirmed in some other domain (e.g. biology).
I openly and freely hold on warrnt that evolutionary materialism is self refuting and amoral, I have shown it so.
And I have argued that this is not so, because a naturalist can happily treat moral oughts as metalinguistic devices for discursively representing patterns of norm-governed relations in large-brained social animals. Hume is right only in that there is no way of logically deducing ought-claims from is-claims; that does not bar the naturalist from offering a causal explanation of how it came to be the case that there are animals that are governed by norms and which are able to discursively represent (thereby assess and evaluate) those norms in language. So it goes on -- you make your claims, I make mine, on and on and on. The fact that you've offered your rebuttals of my views, and I've offered my rebuttals to your rebuttals, and you to mine and I to yours over and again, does not mean that you have not been refuted, still less does it mean that you have "shown" anything to be the case.Kantian Naturalist
September 27, 2013
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I honestly don't know what you are talking about, Brent. You don't agree with William Lane Craig that God commanded the Israelites to slaughter the Midianites, mothers, men and children, and leave only the virgin women? And to take them "for themselves"? I mean, I would agree with you, and I'd be delighted if you didn't share WLC's view. But it's not a "whopper" - it's an interpretation that at least one eminent Christian takes dead seriously.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 27, 2013
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Well, you have a point.
No! He doesn't. He has only a slightly smaller whopper than you.Brent
September 27, 2013
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But I should add, EL, nice attempt @34 to change the subject quickly.Brent
September 27, 2013
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EL, perhaps your head needs more hitting. How is it that you've missed the obvious from the text(s) that have been quoted recently on your own blog, which you've parroted, and now your own offering which KN has had to point out to you (although not entirely without his own sickening eisegesis)? Perhaps you aren't nearly as objective and reasonable and rational as you like to think yourself? Just . . . maybe???Brent
September 27, 2013
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Well, I'll charitably take that as a step, KN, but you've also forgotten the quote marks. One wonders why YOU need to point out it was rape if it is simply a point of fact. Hmmm?Brent
September 27, 2013
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Point of fact: in that passage, Moses is permitting the Israelite warriors to rape the Midianite women. That’s different from saying that either that Moses or the Lord commands it.
Well, you have a point. It's a shame that so many Christians don't take that view. William Lane Craig for instance claims the Israelite soldiers acts were "morally obligatory" because they had been commanded by God:
Rather, since our moral duties are determined by God’s commands, it is commanding someone to do something which, in the absence of a divine command, would have been murder. The act was morally obligatory for the Israeli soldiers in virtue of God’s command, even though, had they undertaken it on their on initiative, it would have been wrong. On divine command theory, then, God has the right to command an act, which, in the absence of a divine command, would have been sin, but which is now morally obligatory in virtue of that command.
I have to say, that passage by WLC is one of the most amoral things I have ever read. Read more: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/slaughter-of-the-canaanites#ixzz2g75p4biAElizabeth B Liddle
September 27, 2013
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You forgot the quote marks, EL.Brent
September 27, 2013
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KN: You know or should know the difference between fair comment and defamation or incitement.
Except that you, KF, seem to think you are the ultimate arbiter of the difference. That's the problem. You've set yourself up as the decider of the difference. I don't see any difference at all between your quite extraordinarily offensive claims about "evo-mat" followers, and all they threaten, using the very words, in one instance "enemies of the people". Presumably because you regard your own words as "fair comment". But read those same words in someone else's post, directed approximately in your direction and suddenly it is "defamation and incitement". That is sheer hypocrisy.
What I have headlined is both. Next ont eh subject of accusaitons of fraud, ther eis a difference between a specific case of academic dishonesty and saying blanket that somehting that is based on inductive scientific principles is a fraud in a context where this is throwing gasoline on a series of accusations that are based in a grotesque incitatory and slanderous conspiracy story.
I have read far more than specific cases of academic dishonesty here. There are many posts regularly accuse "Darwinist" scientists of things that, if true, would lose them their jobs. Cherry-picking data, making the data fit the theory. Here's one of BA77's:
Let’s not forget another time honored tradition for Darwinists in which to protect neo-Darwinism from falsificatio; the fraudulent practice of literature bluffing
I openly and freely hold on warrnt that evolutionary materialism is self refuting and amoral, I have shown it so. I do not by so doing imply t6haty those who hold to it are doing so en bloc as accessorie3s to fraud and conspiracy to commit treason and impose a tyranny.
Well, it sure seems like implying it to me. Does it occur to you that similarly apparently inflammatory statements from others may not be quite what they seem to you?
I do warn that widespread acceptance of an amoral worldview is playing with fire, in a world where there are such things as conscienceless nihilists who may be enabled thereby. And up to within the past 24 hours I rebukes Niw for going too far and using the term hoax. EL is pretending that slander, hate speech and incitation are normal free and fair expression.
No. I am saying (not "pretending") that what you seem to think are slander, hate speech and incitation are not.
Your behaviour on this is enabling.
Of course it's enabling. I host a blog to enable people to discuss things, just as Barry does here. And just as people get fairly virulent about things here (you, regularly, for instance) so do people at TSZ from time to time. That's what discussion sometimes involves. I wish it didn't. I really wish I didn't have to scroll past yards of diatribe about Alinksy and Lewontin to get to the next interesting post. But I can put up with it, because I uphold your right to express views that I think are both offensive and wrong.
You know and can do a lot better than this. EL has completely lost any respect I once had for her, her behaviour is beyond the pale of civility, as a good cop enabler and host of the bad cops. KF
I am not going to do "better" KF, because in my view, to do what you call "better" would be to do a great deal worse. I will not censor views on my blog because you don't like them, any more than I will ask Barry to censor your views at UD because I don't like them. And if you can't see that posting vast inflammatory diatribes about the threat to civilisation post by amoral evo-mat values, warning me and people like Alan of being like the Germans who had to be "marched round the camps" to see what they hand enabled, and comparing my posts to Goebbels is ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENT, to a TSZ poster posting a rant about the dangers of the Wedge document (which, ironically, is full of claims about the devastating damage done by "scientific materialism" to society), to claiming that an "honest creationist" is enabling "enemies of society" (precisely your words), and pointing out that your views on homosexuality might require you to be "marched round the camps" next time to see what you had enabled, then I say: Look. In. The. Mirror.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 27, 2013
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Point of fact: in that passage, Moses is permitting the Israelite warriors to rape the Midianite women. That's different from saying that either that Moses or the Lord commands it.Kantian Naturalist
September 27, 2013
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Brent:
I agree, KN. KF is just asking for a “little responsibility”, like perhaps mentioning to others that they shouldn’t purposely try to derail people from having a serious discussion by posting the most obviously false information in an attempt to throw a can of gasoline and cigarette on the whole scene that isn’t looking good for the TSZ people.
What? And presumably he also means that not only should EL “not sit by”, but not “take part in parroting” the obviously and embarrassingly false information, like that the Bible commands rape. What the hell is KF thinking? Numbers 31: Slaughter of all but the virgins, and sexual slavery for those.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 27, 2013
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It seems that some do not understand that when you accuse people of fraud, totalitarian conspiracy, inherent inescapable irrationality leading to heir being ENEMIES OF HUMANITY, thatr carries an enormous burden of proof. I contend that what is pro-offered as "proof" by those pushing these irresponsible narratives is at best confirmation bias, or much more likely a propagandiatic hysteria stirred up by those with malice aforethought. You will see that I have in fact responded at least in outline to the main accusations, with onward links. There is no substance to the accusations [including the underlying one that there are no empirically tested reliable signs of design in the natural world], but the accusations are out of all proportion and are calculated to lead to hate and rage, which are notoriously blinding emotions. There is so much history on where that leads, at minimum to Kulturkampf, that no responsible person should but be concerned. KFkairosfocus
September 27, 2013
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KN: You know or should know the difference between fair comment and defamation or incitement. What I have headlined is both. Next ont eh subject of accusaitons of fraud, ther eis a difference between a specific case of academic dishonesty and saying blanket that somehting that is based on inductive scientific principles is a fraud in a context where this is throwing gasoline on a series of accusations that are based in a grotesque incitatory and slanderous conspiracy story. I openly and freely hold on warrnt that evolutionary materialism is self refuting and amoral, I have shown it so. I do not by so doing imply t6haty those who hold to it are doing so en bloc as accessorie3s to fraud and conspiracy to commit treason and impose a tyranny. I do warn that widespread acceptance of an amoral worldview is playing with fire, in a world where there are such things as conscienceless nihilists who may be enabled thereby. And up to within the past 24 hours I rebukes Niw for going too far and using the term hoax. EL is pretending that slander, hate speech and incitation are normal free and fair expression. Your behaviour on this is enabling. You know and can do a lot better than this. EL has completely lost any respect I once had for her, her behaviour is beyond the pale of civility, as a good cop enabler and host of the bad cops. KFkairosfocus
September 27, 2013
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If folks about TSZ want to have a discussion about the relation between the Discovery Institute and the Christian Right, that's their business. Likewise, if they want to claim that the Christian Right is an enemy of humanity, that's their business, too. I don't see how either amounts to slander or libel. The first claim is a combination of fact (namely, the financial support that the Discovery Institute from Howard Abrahmson) and opinion; the second claim is opinion. KF seems to think that Lizzie has a moral obligation to criticize the expression of opinions on her blog with which he disagrees. This makes no sense to me at all. Obviously KF think that those opinions are false, but his thinking so doesn't make them so. An opinion with which you disagree isn't slander just by virtue of your disagreement. And KF's thinking that these opinions are not only false, but obviously false, depends on certain assumptions that to him are perfectly obvious and innocuous, but which aren't so to the folks over at TSZ. So all that is included in what's under contention.Kantian Naturalist
September 27, 2013
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I agree, KN. KF is just asking for a "little responsibility", like perhaps mentioning to others that they shouldn't purposely try to derail people from having a serious discussion by posting the most obviously false information in an attempt to throw a can of gasoline and cigarette on the whole scene that isn't looking good for the TSZ people. And presumably he also means that not only should EL "not sit by", but not "take part in parroting" the obviously and embarrassingly false information, like that the Bible commands rape. What the hell is KF thinking?Brent
September 27, 2013
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Oh, c'mon, Lizzie -- KF isn't asking to "censor" anything or anyone, just "be responsible" -- that's all! It's nice and vague enough that he can always accuse you of not "being responsible". That's how the game works -- the goal-posts can be moved at any time. Hurray! Oh, and notice that KF has pre-empted the rhetoric on "the turnabout accusation". No dice on that one, I'm afraid.Kantian Naturalist
September 27, 2013
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Heh:
Those who poison the well we may all eventually have to drink from thereby reveal themselves to be enemies of humanity. kairosfocus, April 20, 2013
Elizabeth B Liddle
September 27, 2013
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So you are asking me to censor material on my site. Well, I will not censor material on my site. I strongly believe that people have a right to say what they think, whether they are mistaken or not. I agree with you that there are legal limits and I take care that those legal limits are not crossed, but in my view nothing on my site crosses those legal limits. And, in my view, nothing that you object to on my site does not have its exact counterpart, in spades, in your posts, here. As for "enemies of humanity" - who wrote these words, KF?
evo mat thought police censors and career killers...
Evo Mat characteristically ends in radical relativisation of reason, knowledge and morals, opening the door to ruthless factions...
evo mat becomes the avant garde in a community it opens the door to radical, abusive nihilist ...
And of course, not here but at the DI:
This materialistic conception of reality eventually infected virtually every area of our culture, from politics and economics to literature and art The cultural consequences of this triumph of materialism were devastating. Materialists denied the existence of objective moral standards, claiming that environment dictates our behavior and beliefs. Such moral relativism was uncritically adopted by much of the social sciences, and it still undergirds much of modern economics, political science, psychology and sociology. Materialists also undermined personal responsibility by asserting that human thoughts and behaviors are dictated by our biology and environment. The results can be seen in modern approaches to criminal justice, product liability, and welfare. In the materialist scheme of things, everyone is a victim and no one can be held accountable for his or her actions. Finally, materialism spawned a virulent strain of utopianism. Thinking they could engineer the perfect society through the application of scientific knowledge, materialist reformers advocated coercive government programs that falsely promised to create heaven on earth.
I have simply lost count of the number of times "Darwinists" have been accused of fraud here at UD, and as for Nazis - well you brought them up, KF, when you compared Alan Fox to a Nazi enabler, and only this week you compared me to Goebbels. But the way to rebut such ideas is not by suppressing them, in my view, but by holding them to the light.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 27, 2013
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EL, I am asking you to be responsible in regards to defamatory, slanderous, falsely accusatory materials and incitement to hate and thus violence. Suppose I were to abuse UD to accuse you of say prostitution or adultery and being a madam for such, or the like. Would you consider this free expression and having a right to be here at UD? Calling people enemies of humanity, frauds and in effect nazis is much worse, and without merit. It is defamatory and incitation. Shame on you for refusing to be responsible. KFkairosfocus
September 27, 2013
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Kairosfocus: are you, or are you not, asking me to delete material from my website? If yes, then why is that not censorship? Of no, what is it that you are asking me to do?Elizabeth B Liddle
September 27, 2013
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EL, mere lies -- and you have not even shown errors much less willful deception -- are not defamation. KFkairosfocus
September 27, 2013
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EL kindly do not push words in my mouth that do not belong there. I have nowhere advocated shutting down views, which is a blatant symonym for censorship. But, that censorship is to be avoided is no excuse for the sort of defamation and hate speech I have spotlighted here just now. I HAVE said that there is a traditional format of letters to the editor, and that I can understand PS if it had instead said that it was not going to host trollish conduct like at Youtube etc and was not going to spend good money on moderation. There is a world of alternative places to comment and publicise views today. In case you have forgotten, responsibility for defamation proverbially extends from the printer and publisher to the boys selling a paper on the street side. And if defaming millions of people as enemies of humanity, primary or secondary as ringleaders and dupes without good warrant, as well as accusing an entire school of thought of science as being fraud without good reason are not defamation, nothing is. Your lack of compunction is revealing, as is your easy overnight equating of principled objection to questionable behaviour and associated ideology to racism. [I have annotated and given references in response, FYI.] KFkairosfocus
September 27, 2013
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The problem, KF, is that by shutting down views you don't like you give a carte-blanche to those who would shut down your own. This is why freedom of speech is so important. You might not like what you hear as a result, but that is surely much less of an evil than being prevented from being heard. No? I suspect you think that falsehoods should be suppressed and only the truth allowed. The trouble is that views as to what is the truth vary, and always will. No-one has a monopoly on truth and bias is impossible to avoid. That is why freedom of speech is so important to truth - it means that lies can be heard, but it also means that lies can be countered. Without that freedom, there is no way to correct a lie.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 27, 2013
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Barb:
I have said this before, and I will repeat myself. Science does not work that way! Consensus is meaningless.
Well, no, it isn't. Consensus is reached by repeated replication of results. You are right that empirical results are what matters, but one empirical result is not in itself convincing. Replication is what matters, and that is what determines the consensus. It is why meta-analyses are so important.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 27, 2013
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Pardon Let's all take a pause to rethink. First, let us never forget the potentially destructive power of the tongue and why freedom of expression meets with issues of defamation, Multiply by a major country -- the USA -- where libel law has become grossly defective over the past generation. Mix in an Internet that is largely based in that jurisdiction. Observe the pattern of trollish misconduct that taints sites like Youtube. Note also, that we are in an age where effectively anyone can set up a blog and talk like s/he is on a soap box in Hyde Park. Though of course, few may bother to take notice. (Though, too, I have had to note the long tail effect of many people, each reaching a few, and how influence spreads, as well as the fact that a Sunday School teacher who regularly teaches 20 is doing a lot, and a parson who speaks to altogether 300 people across a month is having significant impact also, so one should take heart even if one is not reaching the millions. Don't forget the power of doubling: in 10 cycles taking 6 months each, that is a million reached in five years, providing there is a steady spreading.) In this light, if Pop Sci had said it has a troll problem and it is not cost effective to go beyond the traditional letters to the editor, that would be one thing. However, what we are dealing with here is something else. The assumption that the orthodoxy of the duly anointed and prestigious is not to be questioned, and that heretics are to be marginalised, branded with a scarlet H and scapegoated, is seriously problematic. We are not God, and scientific knowledge in particular is subject to revision in light of new evidence and reasoning, in a further context that computer simulations, reconstructions and projections are not equal to real world observations. The rise and spread of self-refuting scientism -- the notion that science and its methods delimit credible knowledge -- is another worrying trend. Time for a major rethink. KFkairosfocus
September 27, 2013
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franklin:
But that is how it works.
If the results do not accurately reflect the data gathered, or if there is a problem with the methodology used to collect the data, then it really doesn't "work" at all. It's meaningless because it doesn't lead to increased knowledge or practical application.
In my experience working in labs and collaborating across several disciplines with many scientists collection of the highest quality data is paramount. Not to mention it makes interpretation a bit easier that data generated from a poorly thought out experiment or haphazard sampling methodologies. New ideas are always looked at seriously since they may represent a potential ‘scoop’ where for the competitive side of science a new finding, that is well supported and explained, represents a means to career advancement.
New ideas should be looked at seriously, but often they aren't. Part of the problem is highlighted in your final sentence: career advancement. Scientists can (and do) manipulate data in order to achieve the results they want, whether it's publication, tenure, or what have you. Scientific fraud isn't new. Look at the recent case where vaccines were supposedly connected to children developing autism; the researcher falsified nearly all his data.Barb
September 26, 2013
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