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Science writer: Many Worlds (quantum multiverse) as a fantasy, verging on nihilism

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Schrodinger’s cat in Many Worlds/Christian Schirm, Wikimedia Commons

Many worlds:The Many-Worlds Interpretation (MWI) of quantum mechanics holds that there are many worlds which exist in parallel at the same space and time as our own. The existence of the other worlds makes it possible to remove randomness and action at a distance from quantum theory and thus from all physics. – Stanford Plato

Philip Ball, a British physicist turned science writer, reflects at Aeon on who loves the Many Worlds notion and why:

In any event, both ideas display a discomfort with arbitrariness in the universe, and both stem from
the same human impulse that invents fictional fantasies about parallel worlds and that enjoys
speculating about counterfactual histories.

Which is why, if I call these ideas fantasies, it is not to deride or dismiss them but to keep in view the fact that, beneath their apparel of scientific equations or symbolic logic, they are acts of imagination, of ‘just supposing’. But when taken to the extreme, they become a kind of nihilism: if you believe everything then you believe nothing. The MWI allows – perhaps insists – not just on our having cosily familial ‘quantum brothers’ but on worlds where gods, magic and miracles exist and where science is inevitably (if rarely) violated by chance breakdowns of the usual statistical regularities of physics.

Certainly, to say that the world(s) surely can’t be that weird is no objection at all; Many Worlders harp on about this complaint precisely because it is so easily dismissed. MWI doesn’t, though, imply that things really are weirder than we thought; it denies us any way of saying anything, because it entails saying (and doing) everything else too, while at the same time removing the ‘you’ who says it. This does not demand broadmindedness, but rather a blind acceptance of ontological incoherence.

That its supporters refuse to engage in any depth with the questions the MWI poses about the ontology and autonomy of self is lamentable. But this is (speaking as an ex-physicist) very much a physicist’s blind spot: a failure to recognise – or perhaps to care – that problems arising at a level beyond that of the fundamental, abstract theory can be anything more than a minor inconvenience. If the MWI were supported by some sound science, we would have to deal with it – and to do so with more seriousness than the merry invention of Doppelgängers to measure both quantum states of a photon. But it is not. It is grounded in a halfbaked philosophical argument about a preference to simplify the axioms. More.

By all means, read the whole thing. One of the best reflective pieces on the subject to come along in years.

Couple thoughts:

Although Philip Ball seems to think Many Worlds got started to solve a problem in quantum mechanics, there is reason to believe that it has an enormous philosophical appeal anyway to post-empirical types in science, who have no use for concepts like falsifiability or Occam’s razor.

Science is actually only an ornament, a trinket, in Many Worlds/multiverse reasoning. Sages sitting on a riverbank 2500 years ago could come up with the same sorts of ideas, and the same amount of evidence.

Today it could hardly matter less that there is no evidence for these Many Worlds. Evidence is just not hot any more.

See also: As if the multiverse wasn’t bizarre enough …meet Many Worlds

But who needs reality-based thinking anyway? Not the new cosmologists

Follow UD News at Twitter!

Comments
Sure, wallstreeter43, feel free to invite Fleming here.skram
February 22, 2015
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Skram , still avoiding my question . Lets setup a little debate between u and fleming . Lets see if his theory is quackery like u ignorantly assert it or it's actually u that's the quack. Why are u avoiding the question ? It's not like he isn't accessible because he has already shown the willingness to engage others to explain the theory . My guess is that you will keep avoiding the question ;) And we all know what that means Oh and by the way Skram what's ur infinitely educated opinion on the shroud ? Let me guess, u believe its a medival fake despite most of the evidence that it isn't right ;) This is where u will avoid yet another question if mine right ;) Got to love the honesty and integrity of atheism in action .wallstreeter43
February 22, 2015
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The number "34 thousand billion watts" thrown around makes no sense. It isn't the power of UV radiation that determines the exposure, it is the total energy, i.e., the number of photons absorbed. One doesn't even need a PhD in physics to understand this simple fact.skram
February 22, 2015
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Great post BA77!! Will research it fully today. It seems the more we study the shroud the more it puts us with the only historical event that makes sense of how that image was firmed and that's the resurrection of Christ . What this is starting to show is that God is no magician , but the most imaginative scientist ever. Where is Diogenes , my guess is that he SKRAMMED Oops , I couldn't resist ;)wallstreeter43
February 22, 2015
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Fleming's theory makes no sense. Look at how he equates double slit experiment with 'picture building'. I am sure an IDer at UD has a better understanding of double slit experiment than Fleming :
The image may have been produced in some ways similar to the well-known quantum version of the double-slit experiment where the picture can be built up photon by photon; like the spatial coherence of the double-slit image, so too the image on the Shroud is spatially coherent. The Shroud consists of flax; melanin is well known to exist within the epidermis of various species including plants. In general melanin absorbs UV radiation possibly on a photon by photon basis to protect chromosomes from UV damage. There are certain characteristics that this synergistic biophysical hypothesis matches to previous experimental observations including the recent finding of ‘double superficiality
How does this theory explain the 34 thousand billion watts required for creating the vacuum ultraviolet (VUV) ?Me_Think
February 22, 2015
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wallstreeter43:
Sir am, why. It engage him on that forum and put your money where ur mouth is .
Take out whatever it is in your mouth and say that again, please.skram
February 22, 2015
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Sir am, why. It engage him on that forum and put your money where ur mouth is . He has a phd . My guess is you will take a rain check on that challenge because it is you that doesn't know squat . But then again u don't know much about the shroud if turin and u will assert that's its a fake right , and I'm very sure u don't know squat about the shroud ;)wallstreeter43
February 22, 2015
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Actually, the biophotonic hypothesis has some very substantial empirical evidence behind it. First it is important to note that the image on the Shroud is found to be formed by a quantum process, not by a classical process:
The absorbed energy in the Shroud body image formation appears as contributed by discrete values – Giovanni Fazio, Giuseppe Mandaglio – 2008 Excerpt: This result means that the optical density distribution,, can not be attributed at the absorbed energy described in the framework of the classical physics model. It is, in fact, necessary to hypothesize a absorption by discrete values of the energy where the ‘quantum’ is equal to the one necessary to yellow one fibril. http://cab.unime.it/journals/index.php/AAPP/article/view/C1A0802004/271 Scientists say Turin Shroud is supernatural – December 2011 Excerpt: After years of work trying to replicate the colouring on the shroud, a similar image has been created by the scientists. However, they only managed the effect by scorching equivalent linen material with high-intensity ultra violet lasers, undermining the arguments of other research, they say, which claims the Turin Shroud is a medieval hoax. Such technology, say researchers from the National Agency for New Technologies, Energy and Sustainable Economic Development (Enea), was far beyond the capability of medieval forgers, whom most experts have credited with making the famous relic. “The results show that a short and intense burst of UV directional radiation can colour a linen cloth so as to reproduce many of the peculiar characteristics of the body image on the Shroud of Turin,” they said. And in case there was any doubt about the preternatural degree of energy needed to make such distinct marks, the Enea report spells it out: “This degree of power cannot be reproduced by any normal UV source built to date.” http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-say-turin-shroud-is-supernatural-6279512.html The Center Of The Universe Is Life – General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Entropy and The Shroud Of Turin – video http://vimeo.com/34084462
Moreover, humans emit biophotonic 'quantum' light:
Photocount distribution of photons emitted from three sites of a human body - 2006 Excerpt: Signals from three representative sites of low, intermediate and high intensities are selected for further analysis. Fluctuations in these signals are measured by the probabilities of detecting different numbers of photons in a bin. The probabilities have non-classical features and are well described by the signal in a quantum squeezed state of photons. Measurements with bins of three sizes yield same values of three parameters of the squeezed state. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16520060 Image - This first image shows one of the test subjects in full light. The middle image shows the body giving off weak emissions of visible (biophotonic) light in totally dark conditions. The rightmost image of the subject, captured in infrared wavelengths, shows the heat emissions. http://msnbcmedia1.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/090722-body-glow-1p.grid-6x2.jpg Biophotons - The Light In Our Cells - Marco Bischof - March 2005 Excerpt page 2: The Coherence of Biophotons: ,,, Biophotons consist of light with a high degree of order, in other words, biological laser light. Such light is very quiet and shows an extremely stable intensity, without the fluctuations normally observed in light. Because of their stable field strength, its waves can superimpose, and by virtue of this, interference effects become possible that do not occur in ordinary light. Because of the high degree of order, the biological laser light is able to generate and keep order and to transmit information in the organism. http://www.international-light-association.eu/PDF/Biophotons.pdf
Thus regardless of whatever you may think of his math or whatever, the empirical evidence itself tells us, much contrary to materialistic thought, that humans are emitting 'biological laser light'. Obviously this readily implies a 'quantum mechanism' is in place to explain how the 'quantum' image formed on the Shroud. The only outstanding question left is what caused the extreme intensity and synchronicity of the burst of 'biological laser light' from the body of Christ so as to form the image on the Shroud. Needless to say, the resurrection of Christ from death answers that outstanding question nicely! Of related note:
The Puzzling Role Of Biophotons In The Brain - Dec. 17, 2010 Excerpt: In recent years, a growing body of evidence shows that photons play an important role in the basic functioning of cells. Most of this evidence comes from turning the lights off and counting the number of photons that cells produce. It turns out, much to many people’s surprise, that many cells, perhaps even most, emit light as they work. In fact, it looks very much as if many cells use light to communicate. There’s certainly evidence that bacteria, plants and even kidney cells communicate in this way. Various groups have even shown that rats brains are literally alight thanks to the photons produced by neurons as they work.,,, ,,, earlier this year, one group showed that spinal neurons in rats can actually conduct light. ,, Rahnama and co point out that neurons contain many light sensitive molecules, such as porphyrin rings, flavinic, pyridinic rings, lipid chromophores and aromatic amino acids. In particular, mitochondria, the machines inside cells which produce energy, contain several prominent chromophores. The presence of light sensitive molecules makes it hard to imagine how they might not be not influenced by biophotons.,,, They go on to suggest that the light channelled by microtubules can help to co-ordinate activities in different parts of the brain. It’s certainly true that electrical activity in the brain is synchronised over distances that cannot be easily explained. Electrical signals travel too slowly to do this job, so something else must be at work.,,, (So) It’s a big jump to assume that photons do this job. http://www.technologyreview.com/view/422069/the-puzzling-role-of-biophotons-in-the-brain/
bornagain77
February 22, 2015
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I have skimmed an article by Tony Fleming, in which he presents his alternative to electrodynamics. It's abundantly clear that he only has a rudimentary understanding of electromagnetism and does not even understand what the term "gauge" means. Tony's current job title is a General Manager, which indicates that he has not been doing physics for quite a while. He is a garden-variety crackpot. He uses sciency-sounding terms like "gauge" and "spinor," but he does not understand them. For example, in this paper what he terms "spinors" are actually vectors.
Each spinor refers to a centre of motion
That's hilariously misguided.skram
February 22, 2015
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wallstreeter - thanks for the excellent research and for all the references you've posted. It's impressive! Thanks for links to the St Louis conference you mentioned. I've got Antonacci's book and two by Ian Wilson that I'm looking forward to. I just finished a relatively new one "The Truth about the Shroud of Turin" by Robert Wilcox. That was great also. I thin some of the most important evidence is with the peer reviewed work that overturned the carbon 14 analysis. That has not been well publicized.Silver Asiatic
February 22, 2015
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Fleming is a very sharp physicist , and from watching the video it's apparent that he's a Christian :) And it looks like he is part of the biophotonics institute in Australia . Here is a message board that he participates in. http://www.toequest.com/forum/your-toe-theory/92-em-self-field-theory.html And the aim of the website http://www.unifiedphysics.com And he defends the math of self-theory here on a forum against critiques . This stuff is way over my head. This guy is a brain and a half lol http://mathforum.org/kb/message.jspa?messageID=5512750wallstreeter43
February 21, 2015
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Hey BA, I just went throigh the tony fleming video. Fascinating stuff. He is both a physicist and biophysicist and the theory he is working on os self-field theory which seeks to unify physics and biophysics . It's a real theory and is slowly being accepted in academia but very few in academia are educated in this theory . http://www.science20.com/profile/tony_fleming ABOUT TONY Tony is a mathematical physicist and biophysicist with more than 35 years experience and is currently the General Manager of the Biophotonics Research Institute, Australia. He has written two books both published by Pan Stanford Publishing, (1) Self-Field Theory - A New Mathematical Description of Physics, and (2) Inside the Photon - A Journey to Health. Bioelectromagnetic and Electromagnetic research -As a professional for the past 34 years Tony has been involved in a wide range of mathematical applications. These academic and research involvements have been mainly communications, bioeffects, and medical therapies. For the past decade he has been involved in a research project Self-Field Theory (SFT) that had its genesis within his Ph.D. studies, a field theory that provides a unifying principle within physics and biophysics. At the very least this is a modelling technique with physics wide application, but it is also a mathematical formulation for providing analytic insight across physics. SFT revises our concepts of relativity, uncertainty and many other mathematical and physical concepts. It gives revision to quantum theories and is recently being accepted reasonably widely within the research community, although there is much education of academia to be performed SFT is distinct from classical Electromagnetics and Quantum Field Theory. SFT promises to yield new directions in traditional, alternative, and modern medicine, biology, energy production, earthquake prediction, global warming, cosmology, and theoretical physics to name a few fields where it applies. Because of the ubiquitous nature of electromagnetics at the faculty level, SFT will hopefully bring fresh impetus across academia, science and technology. His theory is that the cells in Christ's body started firing a type of UV radiation which was also captured on the surface of the shroud as his body came back to life . I know you are familiar with the 2011 study by the ENEA that replicated a small area of linen by firing a uv laser at it. Flemings theory seems to work in conjunction with the ENEA study if I'm correct . ENEA also replicated the tiny 2 micrometers thickness of the shroud image . http://cosmiclog.nbcnews.com/_news/2011/12/22/9636065-was-holy-shroud-created-in-a-flash-italian-researchers-resurrect-claim?lite Here we see the ENEA scientists talk about this and at the bottom of the article engage shroud skeptic joe nickell and just expose his non scientific pseudo criticism as garbage . In other words he gets humiliated lol. Here in this article ENEA talks about how they replicated only a small area of line and the power output needed to create a full body image would be in the area of 34 thousand billion watts and the amount of power needed for this kind if laser doesn't exist today . http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/documents/detail/articolo/sacra-sindone-holy-shroud-sabana-santa-10738/ “However, Enea scientists warn, "it should be noted that the total power of VUV radiations required to instantly color the surface of linen that corresponds to a human of average height, body surface area equal to = 2000 MW/cm2 17000 cm2 = 34 thousand billion watts makes it impractical today to reproduce the entire Shroud image using a single laser excimer, since this power cannot be produced by any VUV light source built to date (the most powerful available on the market come to several billion watts )”."" But then add that they are still not able to replicate many other features of the shroud image. I call it the technology of God. However the Shroud image “has some features that we are not yet able to reproduce – they admit - for example, the gradient of the image caused by a different concentration of yellow colored fibrils that alternate with unstained fibrils”. And they warn: “We are not at the conclusion, we are composing pieces of a fascinating and complex scientific puzzle”. The enigma of the image of the Shroud of Turin is still “a challenge for intelligence”, as John Paul II said. Here is another link explaining self field theory which is a new mathematical description of physics . Exciting stuff. http://www.unifiedphysics.com/unified-physics/self-field-theory/ And finally here is a paper that describes the video presentation tony fleming gave http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/stlflemingppt.pdfwallstreeter43
February 21, 2015
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Your very welcome Bornagain77 Thanks you also for the tireless work u have done here which has helped influenced me and other into the ID camp. Please make sure to also view the new document tray on professor Fanti as it is the. It's recent shroud documentary and he has gotten even closer to replicating the image on the shroud with his corona discharge theory . It's my favorite :)wallstreeter43
February 21, 2015
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Thanks for the videos wallstreeter43. I am about to view this one: Tony Fleming – biophotonic theory that biophotonic IV light was emitted by the body of Christ to cause that image http://youtu.be/X4bejqAVfOkbornagain77
February 21, 2015
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I agree totally silver. I've spent just as much time with evangelicals (almost became one )as I have with Catholics and I'm a Catholic . The deep and loving fellowship that evangelicals with each other is something that rubbed off on me personally and is something we Catholics need more of in our churches . But as you also said we have put aside our denominational differences and have come together on this blog , and unity in these issues is something I think Christ loves to see . Yes Luther was correct in being against most relics in his time as many were being used for profit and to deceive innocent people out if their money. And yea the shroud has much scientific evidence going for it. In fact much if the best research on it wasn't done by Christian scientists but non Christian scientists like World renowned blood chemist Alan Adler who is Jewish and determined through peer reviewed blood chemistry research that the red stuff on the shroud was human blood of type AB and billirubin blood which shows us that the man of the shroud was tortured severely . Agnostic Cambridge trained art historian thomas de Wesselow who dispelled all the silly pseudo claims by these ignorant atheist sites that the shroud image was a typical medieval art style image when he correctly noted in his book the sign that the image. On the shroud confirmed to known art style in any period of time. Agnostic doctor August Accetta who after his gamma ray research and subjecting his body to potentially harmful radioactive material converted back to Christianity . Agnostic lawyer mark Antonacci whose tenacity for doing research ended up bringing him to Christianity starting with his research into the shroud , all from an argument t about religion with his Christian girl friend . Agnostic shroud historian Ian wilson who converted to Christianity through his research on the shroud. Atheist physicist bryan miller who one day asked God to reveal himself to him in a different way as he was a scientist and his brain was wired this way . Barrie Schwortz as silver mentioned is an Orthodox Jew yet believes in the authenticity of the shroud . Agnostic thermal chemist Ray Rogers whose peer reviewed chemical analysis research published in thermochinica acta overturned the 1988 c14 tests . 21st century science can't replicate this image and the closest anyone ever has gotten to replicating it is with radiation models . This not only shows that no medieval forger could have reasonably replicated this image but simply didn't have the technology to do it . Heck we today don't even have it. So many evidences are against the forger theory . For instance , pollen found in the shroud come from the area of Jerusalem and bloomed only during springtime . Now if any one of you were a medieval forger why in the heck would u sprinkle pollen from Jerusalem on the shroud knowing full well that there was no way to even identify it during that time . No reasonable person would assume that the forger would do it or need to do it in order to fool a medieval audience . The more ur study the shroud the more it pulls u in and when it pulls you in your hooked lol. Hmm where has Diogenes gone off to ;)wallstreeter43
February 21, 2015
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Sparc - Luther was mostly concerned with the traffic and abuse of relics. I've known several Evangelicals who are open to the honor of relics and sacred places. The shroud has support from researchers with diverse backgrounds. Barrie Schwartz, one of the most famous, is Jewish. As wallstreeter said, it's not just a Catholic thing. At the same time, I think American and European Protestants are quite different. In the US we've done a pretty good job to put aside differences and work together. I think UD is a good example of this, with Catholics and Protestants supporting each other side-by-side and hardly ever fighting about denominational stuff. I think most of the Catholics here (like myself) have a lot of admiration and gratitude for the evangelicals and protestants working in ID have done through the years.Silver Asiatic
February 21, 2015
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Sparc ,the shroud of turin is no ordinary relic. Why so you think Diogenes ran from it when all of the facts were supplied . It's not a catholic or Protestant relic but a relic for all Christians. Stephen jones who runs one if the top shroud if turin blogs is a calvinist himself . If all the evidence is true then.shroud image could be a snapshot if the resurrection moment right befire Jesus's body came back to life . Most shroud researchers overlook the blood and focus on the image for one obvious reason , that we see blood every day , but we have never seen an image like that . One important aspect of the blood is the blood clots. They are anatomically perfect, unbroken and unsmeared. Tell me how do you wrap a bloodied corpse with a burial shroud, then take the man off the shroud (or he gets up under his own power) without smearing or breaking the blood clots . This tells us that the man of the shroud had to have come off that shroud in an unnatural way, or a supernatural way ;) There is a reason why it's one of the most scientifically studied objects on earth .wallstreeter43
February 21, 2015
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Digenes: “Sean and his atheist friends” are not pushing MWI as a form of metaphysics, or for metaphysical reasons. There is a philosophical, or to be more precise, an epistemological reason to prefer MWI, namely the belief that the scientific method by definition should prefer the simpler hypothesis among those that are equally good at predicting and explaining the observations."
The problem is, as I see it, is not so much theism vs atheism, but that one of the entailments of MWI is that one must jettison the idea of free-will, which is to deny one's own primary conscious experience for the sake of a "simpler" hypothetical abstraction. That's a lot to ask.mike1962
February 21, 2015
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I've learned that Luther and other reformers denied relics. Thus, can anybody explain why evangelical Christians here are so obsessed with the Turin shroud? Or has UD been taken over by good old Catholics lately? ETA: Or are European and American Protestants that different?sparc
February 21, 2015
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Ok guys it looks like my St. Louis shroud video links are still awaiting moderation, bit if anyone wants the links just show me an email at this screen name at yahoo dot come. I will also post the videos this weekend on the God and science forum :)wallstreeter43
February 21, 2015
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Hey guys I have posted the video links for the Missouri shroud conference but fir some reason it's awaiting moderation . Hooefully it passes soon.wallstreeter43
February 20, 2015
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These are videos from the most recent shroud conference in October 2014 This is a video from Los alamos labs chemist Robert Villarreal http://youtu.be/5MXdxTVC7O0 Video of my favorite shroud researcher Barrie Schwortz who is an Orthodox Jew who believes in the authenticity of the . Barrie was the documenting photographer of Sturp. http://youtu.be/wsGm5T6LOW8 This video is of doctor Petrus Soons who was the first to create a life size hologram of the shroud and doing the presentation of his work is the inventor of the vo8 image analyzer (which NASA uses to map out then erratic of mars and the moon in 3d) talks about the halo around the head of the man of the shroud and it's connection to the mandylion. Fascinating presentation and info that I didn't even know about . I will be viewing this video today. http://youtu.be/2Ypw61sr2ag Another awesome video from engineer Jeffrey skurka on the neutron flux theory in agreement with mark Antonacci and his team of scientists . BA and silver you guys will love this one . http://youtu.be/nXX-HA4CFYY Dana fullbright debunking the theory that a massive 9.0 earthquake caused the caused neutron flux to create that image in the shroud . Very good presentation http://youtu.be/Lac80MMs7hA Historian daniel scavone on documents in Constantinople showing the shroud was in edessa http://youtu.be/gn80uTv6irU Bishop michael Sheridan talks about how the shroud could be used as support for our faith, not a substitute for our faith. http://youtu.be/UgGZCzESOeU Presentation by dame Isabelle piczek world renowned artist and particle physicist specializing in the field of time. The published date says August 2014 so I don't think this is from the St. Louis conference as that is in October . Lots of goodies here guys :) http://youtu.be/_u4gPl9A2Lw Physicist art Lind talking about the blood stains and the unique explanation for them. Lind is one if the scientists on mark Antonacci's team. Emmanuella marinelli - shroud and iconography http://youtu.be/_cp5epABtOE Robery Rucker mcnp analysis of neutrons released by Jesus's body during hs resurrection . I haven't seen this or most if these videos yet as I've ben very busy but my guess is that this ties in direct with Antonacci and his teams neutron flux their that would prove the resurrection if neutrons were found on the shroud . It's an hour video so it's a bit long compared to the others . http://youtu.be/5Cjyvd2hMhg From the mandylion to the shroud by Ivan polvarari http://youtu.be/xcp4RnV5p6w Scientist Bruno barberis -the current state of science http://youtu.be/vQAWolRKaXo Another of my favorites , shroud expert Russ breault http://youtu.be/yTt8VKow6b4 Capes at barta talks about new studies that show the soul on the sudarium of Oviedo match very closely to soil found in Golgotha . Very exciting presentation. This video I have seen. http://youtu.be/Pny7WGyq8ZU Professor Giulio Fanti 12 years of shroud research read by shroud expert Joseph Marino . http://youtu.be/E56zyNufEU0 Pam moon- further evaluation of the 1988 c14 samples http://youtu.be/RkJdgb-Ok5c Tony Fleming - biophotonic theory that biophotonic IV light was emitted by the body of Christ to cause that image http://youtu.be/X4bejqAVfOk There are more videos from the conference but I think I've overflowed you guys with enough info for now . To end this post here is the newest shroud video documentary on professor Giulio Fanti and his corona discharge theory in which he actually does produce an image by corona discharge by I putting massive amounts of electrical energy to cause an image very much like the shroud image . I wonder what event could have caused this kind if massive energy to happen in first century Jerusalem . Silver and BA, you both will love this video documentary as it details fanti's lomg journey on the shroud from when he was a kid in Italy . http://youtu.be/I4c4812XA9A Whew guys , talk about information overload hehe Wallwallstreeter43
February 20, 2015
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Diogenes , it looks like u have taken my advice and ignored the shroud of turin. See, now u can remain a happy atheist ;) Ignore what doesn't fit and hold strong to a worldview that has no evidence , no ultimate value, no ultimate meaning , no ultimate purpose , no ultimate hope and no objective moral values. The definition of true insanitywallstreeter43
February 20, 2015
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Skram , this is researched info as is BA's posts which actually helped me in my conversion from evolutionist to ID advocate so I wouldn't actually call it spam :)wallstreeter43
February 20, 2015
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Diogenes- science only cares about reality. You are trying define science in such a way as to limit it from pursuing reality. It ain't workin'...Joe
February 20, 2015
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I don't have much time to comment today, I think, so I will copy this comment I wrote at Sean Carroll's blog, in response to a Hindu critic. Kashyap: “But you should realize that Sean [Carroll] and his atheist friends launch tirades against religion and metaphysics and at the same time are pushing MWI which sounds very much metaphysical to me!!” No. This is a typical flattening argument used against atheists, ‘Why you atheists believe things on faith, so atheism is just like a religion!’ No. It’s a South Parkian flattening argument: e.g. those who oppose bullies are themselves bullies, those who oppose religion are themselves religious, those who oppose fascism are themselves fascist, etc. It’s about as sensible as saying “Those who don’t like mayonnaise do so because deep down inside, they really like mayonnaise.” No we don’t. An argument against mayonnaise is not mayonnaise-based. “Sean and his atheist friends” are not pushing MWI as a form of metaphysics, or for metaphysical reasons. There is a philosophical, or to be more precise, an epistemological reason to prefer MWI, namely the belief that the scientific method by definition should prefer the simpler hypothesis among those that are equally good at predicting and explaining the observations. And “simpler” here is not defined by counting the number of entities, especially not by counting the number of entities deducible as conclusions from a hypothesis. E.g. If I find termite damage in my house, I don’t say, “There must be ONE TERMITE in my house– because ONE TERMITE is a simpler hypothesis than 10,000! termites” No, neither just one termite, nor 50 million, is the simplest hypothesis; and zero termites would be ridiculous. Rather, to form the simplest hypothesis we would ask, given termite damage, what is the typical size of a termite infestation in a house? And any deviation from that number, higher or lower, is a less simple hypothesis. Thus, hypothesizing one termite is a more complex hypothesis, and hypothesizing ZERO termites is absurd! To be precise: in general, an unparsimonious hypothesis is assessed by counting the number of its extraordinary claims that are not supported by extraordinary evidence; and by ‘extraordinary claim’ I mean any assigning of a property to a hypothetical entity which is improbable for most entities of that type. This is a philosophical argument in the same sense that any restriction to the scientific method is epistemological, e.g. we’re rejecting conclusions that go against the scientific method, which we try to apply consistently. Moreover, as an epistemological matter, we’re including deductions from scientific hypotheses as being “scientific”, and part of science, even if the deductions are not themselves testable, so long as the premises upon which the deductions are based are testable. For example, if I were to ask, “Do your car keys still exist when no one is observing them?” the scientific answer is “Yes, they still exist when we’re not watching them” because that follows as a deduction from the testable premises “The keys existed a minute ago” and “matter rarely disappears.” To say, “My car keys disappear when I’m not watching them” may be ontologically simpler, because the number of hypothetical entities is smaller, but it is NOT the simpler hypothesis, because you’re hypothesizing an invisible force that makes matter disappear and re-appear higgled-piggledy. That’s extraordinary and that makes it complex. The anti-MWI position, which should correctly be called “Disappearing Worlds” or perhaps even better, “Disappearing Twins” (because they believe Schrodinger’s equation is invisibly violated to make all the variant versions of them disappear), pretends to define science in such a way that it excludes untestable deductions as not “scientific”, but it is hypocritical because it only defines “scientific” this way to make your invisible twins disappear, but not at any other times where this definition of “science” would lead to unpopular conclusions. If the “Disappearing Twins” proponents were consistent in their definition of “science”, i.e. rejecting untestable but natural deductions, they would have to call it “unscientific” to believe the far side of the moon exists when we’re not looking at it; or it’s unscientific to believe Comet Shoemaker-Levy obeyed Newton's Laws before it hit Jupiter, because the comet hit the far side of the planet where we couldn’t see it; etc. etc. But no, the anti-MWI “Disappearing Twins” proponents do not apply their strict definition of “science” to exclude deductions where they would be unpopular, or bad for their PR for them to do so. So the anti-MWI crew will never say, “Your car keys don’t exist when you’re not looking at them!” They hypocritically redefine “science” this way, that way, and the other way as necessary for PR reasons, rejecting untestable “Alternate Me’s” one minute, but accepting equivalently untestable deductions like “My car keys still exist even when I’m not looking at them” the next minute. So yes, MWI does have a philosophical, or to be more precise an epistemological motivation: we’re trying to define “science” consistently, and they’re not. They’re into PR and emotional gratifications.Diogenes
February 20, 2015
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We now have two spammers: ba77 and ws43. There goes the neighborhood.skram
February 20, 2015
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Your very welcome BA77, thank you also for all the exhaustive good work you have done here . When I first converted from evolutionist to ID advocate your posts gave me a lot of good info to read and soak up. I'll have a few videos up in a bit , just battling a flu right now but it also gives me an excuse to stay home lol.wallstreeter43
February 20, 2015
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Silver here is part 1 of stephen jones critique of Charles freeman. To get to part 2 and so on the link to the next parts are at the bottom of the part 1 article . It's a multi part series . http://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com/2012/07/my-critique-of-charles-freemans-turin.htmlwallstreeter43
February 20, 2015
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Silver, we are left to wonder what in addition to the burial cloth he saw ? Some skeptics ask why didn't the apostles mention the image and show it to others in the gospel. The main reason would be that if they take that burial cloth out if the tomb they would be violating a. Sacred Jewish law of taking a bloodied burial cloth out of a tomb and in first century Jerusalem the blood on a burial cloth is considered sacred and not to be tampered with . Skeptics also ask why there was very little mention of the shroud for the first 300 years if Christianity . The rman empire spent the first 300 years killing Christians and it was well known that they were trying to eradicate any evidence of Christianity including relics . Barrie Schwortz talks about this and more in this very entertaining video presentation in front of a crowd of evangelical Christians. Schwortz was an secular Jew that came back to his Orthodox Judaic faith and to a god through the shroud . He was also the documenting photographer on the sturp team that got permission in 1978 from the Vatican to study the shroud firsthand for 5 straight 24 hour days . It took him 18 years of research to finally start believing in the shroud . http://youtu.be/N0N9cMUQrZIwallstreeter43
February 20, 2015
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