Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

We have the hat, but where’s that rabbit? High levels of information in “simple” life forms

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In Tuesday night, a guest speaker spoke to my adult night school class in why there is an intelligent design controversy. He talked about the central problem of evolution: The fact that high levels of information are present in life forms that are supposed to be early and simple.

Some guests attended the talk, and one of them announced that if intelligent design is correct, scientists would not see the need to do any research because Goddunit. Or something like that.

The more I thought about what he was saying, the more it puzzled me. Finally, I realized:

For the materialist, the PURPOSE of science is to show that high levels of information can be created without intelligence.

Therefore, in looking for causes of events, the materialist accepts ONLY a solution that shows that high levels of information can come from random assembly (= without intelligence).

He has not shown that high levels of information can be created without intelligence. He assumes that his assertion is true and looks for evidence to support it.

Discoveries that disconfirm his initial belief are not treated as evidence.

Keep looking, he says, keep looking … that magic information mill has GOT to be somewhere!

What if random assembly is not in fact the answer? Then either

1. No solution is found (because there never was any solution in the direction in which he is looking)

or

2. An inadequate solution is patched together and defended as the best available solution – usually that means that claims for the solution are overstated wildly to the public.

But it is the materialist scientist’s duty to keep looking for the magic mill even if the fact that random assembly did not occur is overwhelmingly obvious.

And he displays his virtue to his peers by never questioning the system and by showing hostility and contempt for anyone who does question it.

Given his initial convictions, the materialist cannot believe that a non-materialist is actually doing science. He cannot envision any approach to the fact base that does not have as its base an effort to show that the information was created randomly.

As a matter of fact, the fact base could easily be approached otherwise, and often more fruitfully, too. If we assume that an object in nature is designed, we do not waste time trying to imagine how it could have come about randomly. We study its characteristics and make predictions about its behaviour, function, and so forth.

But that doesn’t help prop up materialism – which seems to be the big project nowadays.

To see why materialism is on a slow train to nowhere, go here. These heroes of materialist evolution theories  are at least as sharp as a marshmallow and twice as swift too.

Also, at The Mindful Hack and Post-Darwinist and elsewhere:

Antony Flew: Is he too old Also, New York Times spin: Elderly ex-atheist is just senile.

Intelligence: How much is heredity and how much environment? – the Flynn effect

Books at home predict student success better than parents’ education

US anti-religion group loses standing to fight lawsuits

Faking out brain injury tests – yes, it can be done

AIDS numbers downsized: a learning experience

Pudging the Truth

Grandma was right: Just eat and be thankful

Our weighty obsession – this one should be required reading for teen girls. Eating disorders very often begin with a diet.

Comments
Just delurking for a moment here--it seems to me that GAW has a good point; O'Leary's post and subsequent comments are almost comically overgeneralized, and not worthy of a site run by Dr. Dembski. Angryoldfatman, we should lead by example, I think. Justifying juvenile accusations by saying "They did it first!" is, well, juvenile. Those of us who are interested in seeing ID as science gain traction need to hold ourselves to a higher standard.James Stanhope
November 24, 2007
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Turnabout is fair play, GAW.angryoldfatman
November 24, 2007
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Denyse, Wow: according to this last bit, "materialists" have been brainwashed ("trained to think a certain way"), are uncreative, unquestioning, not independent, are like dogs ("barking in unison"), rely simply on feelings ("it all feels so GOOD"), are analogous to drunkards ("the headache doesn’t happen until sobriety sets in"), and are prone to scapegoating -- and even then choose the wrong targets. To follow this (addiing "I suspect" and "I suppose" in lieu of evidence), that would make non-materialists independent thinkers, creative, questioning, indivdiualists, reliant on thought, sober, and not prone to scapegoating. Goodness gracious, Denyse! Try using a broader brush next time: you're not generalizing enough.getawitness
November 24, 2007
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Peter, I don't think it is quite as simple as that. The materialists have been trained to think a certain way and do not have the creativity to think in any other way. They are not asking themselves questions like, do I dare to differ? It just wouldn't occur to them to evaluate independently a simple question like whether materialism is ceasing to provide answers because it has reached the limit of its usefulness or whether a reasonable person - faced with the current apparent design of life - should propose materialist hypotheses today. I suspect that, in most jobs in science, creativity is not rewarded but deference to the status quo is. When easy rewards come from barking in unison, a person must have had an unusual experience if he is going to stop barking and start thinking. Also, where a political party or movement that the scientist supports has taken on "the cause", it all feels so GOOD. No, it still doesn't work, but it feels good. And the headache doesn't happen until sobriety sets in. Then, I suppose, one looks for scapegoats or something. (Hint: The Christian fundies are a good bet because unlike the Muslim fundies, they won't blow up the train station and blame the materialists for causing them to do it.)O'Leary
November 24, 2007
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"if intelligent design is correct, scientists would not see the need to do any research because Goddunit"
Well now they're being honest with us. What is most important is not the truth, but their jobs. They would rather protect their status/ paycheck then to entertain the possibility that evolution may be wrong. But this assumption is as false as their belief in evolution. Cosmologist have not been put out of business because of the Big Bang theory. It is impossible to learn everything. They can continue to study biology until the end of time.Peter
November 24, 2007
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It's worth keepng in mind, as well, that "only natural causes" means - in the context - only material causes. I don't mind the idea that science studies only natural causes IF we mean that science does not study miracles, which are segregated from nature by definition. But the expression does not typically mean that. It typically means that science is compelled to assume that high levels of information can be created through random movements of molecules. That is the fundamental article of the materialist creed, and it has never been demonstrated. Because it has never been - and probably cannot be - demonstrated, the materialist demands that we assert it as an article of faith. Submit if you must, but don't make a virtue of your cowardice.O'Leary
November 24, 2007
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Bevets, I found this yesterday and find it fitting to that very shallow "only natural causes argument" of materialist Declaration of Scientific Principle: When in the course of scientific endeavor, it becomes apparent that deeper truths exist, a decent respect to Nature requires that such truths be explored. We hold these truths to be scientifically approachable, that all forms of existence are interconnected, that they possess certain fundamental and unalienable properties. That to describe this interconnectedness and these properties, successive theories shall be constructed by mankind, deriving their explanatory and predictive powers from the approximations of laws of Nature. That whenever any theory becomes inadequate of these ends, it is the duties of mankind to modify it or to abolish it, and to establish new ones, laying the foundation on such principles and organizing the structures in such forms, as to mankind shall seem most likely to reflect their understanding and knowledge of Nature. In memory of Thomas Jefferson (October, 2003) off topic: here is a song for all those who are writing a book. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2138831816104572640&q=unwritten&total=4610&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0bornagain77
November 24, 2007
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Reason being that the pivotal step of confirming an OoL process would be to reproduce it in a lab - which means you’d be confirming both the process and the possibility of intelligence guiding it at once.
Very good. Thank you for that. Same with Dawkins' example of dog breeding as proof of NDE, I suppose.russ
November 24, 2007
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For scientific materialist the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. We might therefore more accurately term them "materialists employing science." ~ Phillip Johnson Science is typically defined as objective investigation (discovering and testing facts)--the means for making faster airplanes and better medicines. But there's another definition held implicitly in the scientific establishment, and it is tantamount to the philosophy of materialism or naturalism. This is the idea that science may legitimately employ only natural causes in explaining everything we observe. The way this definition of science operates is to outlaw any questioning of naturalistic evolution. Darwinists don't ask whether life evolved from a sea of chemicals; they only ask how it evolved. They don't ask whether complex life forms evolved from simpler forms; they only ask how it happened. The presupposition is that natural forces alone must (and therefore can) account for the development of all life on earth; the only task left is to work out the details. ~ Nancy Pearceybevets
November 24, 2007
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Tell it, Denyse. They can get away with this since the ID research program is still in it's infancy. But the materialists will have no way to spin it when new understandings and new treatments and cures come out of the application of the ID paradigm. I for one look forward to that day.poachy
November 24, 2007
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I actually recall a philosopher (alas, I forget who) stating that intelligent design can never really be ruled out when it comes to various scientific questions, OoL included. Reason being that the pivotal step of confirming an OoL process would be to reproduce it in a lab - which means you'd be confirming both the process and the possibility of intelligence guiding it at once. I do agree, though, about materialist aims with science.nullasalus
November 23, 2007
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