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BREAKING: President Trump, Mrs Trump & Ms Hicks are Positive for CV-19

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Tweets:

Tonight, @ FLOTUS and I tested positive for COVID-19. We will begin our quarantine and recovery process immediately. We will get through this TOGETHER!
— Donald J. Trump (@ realDonaldTrump) October 2, 2020

Hope Hicks, who has been working so hard without even taking a small break, has just tested positive for Covid 19. Terrible! The First Lady and I are waiting for our test results. In the meantime, we will begin our quarantine process!
— Donald J. Trump (@ realDonaldTrump) October 2, 2020

When you thought an extraordinarily chaotic year could not pull out another twist. Well, here it is. END

PS: As broad context

PPS: For reference on HCQ

Also:

PPPS: A sampler from a former CEO, Twitter (cf discussion at Forbes [also here]) commented on by Michelle Malkin, a few days ago:

See, now, that this is NOT a normal silly season cycle?

PPPPS: A summary on the U/L trajectory of CV19:

414 Replies to “BREAKING: President Trump, Mrs Trump & Ms Hicks are Positive for CV-19

  1. 1
    kairosfocus says:

    BREAKING: President Trump, Mrs Trump & Ms Hicks are Positive for CV-19

    –> What are the odds they are on a drug cocktail pivoting on HCQ and/or ivermectin? (Calling Dr Zelenko . . . )

  2. 2
    rhampton7 says:

    Fox News medical contributor Dr. Mark Siegel said on Friday morning that he will not recommend hydroxychloroquine to President Donald Trump to beat COVID-19, a drug Trump has touted as a cure to the deadly virus, against the advice of health experts.

    Speaking on the Ingraham Angle, a program on Fox News, a conservative television network, which has downplayed the coronavirus pandemic along with President Donald Trump himself, Dr. Mark Siegel said the scientific community would not recommend hydroxychloroquine to Trump because it has not been proven to cure the deadly disease.

    https://todaynewsafrica.com/i-will-not-recommend-hydroxychloroquine-to-trump-to-beat-covid-19-says-fox-news-medical-contributor/

  3. 3
    kairosfocus says:

    RH7, the problem of course is the gold standard of “proof” fallacy. It is not in the gift of science to deliver demonstration beyond correction on premises that are self evident and axiomatic to all. Post Godel, Mathematics has serious limitations on axiomatic systems. Once one resorts to inductive evidence, responsible evaluation on inference to best current (and “revise-able” [technically, provisional]) explanation, then we can find quite adequate warrant under circumstances of a fast-moving pandemic. Were I in the US First Family’s shoes, I would be dosing up on HCQ, Ivermectin, Azithromycin (or Doxycycline etc), Vits C & D also Zn, stat. I would also be taking in sun and sea breeze. Five to seven days. I would also have Drs Zelenko and Raoult on call, maybe Dr Immanuel and Dr “Been” too. KF

    PS: I note a re-analysis is pointing to effectiveness, even in the later stages of the U/L trajectory of CV19: https://www.worldtribune.com/effectiveness-of-hydroxychloroquine-was-hiding-in-plain-sight/ The key is that the mechanisms on the table are hard to dismiss: https://uncommondescent.com/medicine/the-frontline-doctors-put-some-plausible-mechanisms-for-hydroxychloroquine-on-the-table/

  4. 4
    polistra says:

    So what? In the normal world we wouldn’t have noticed when the president caught a common cold, which is what this fancy branded “virus” is.

  5. 5
    jerry says:

    would not recommend hydroxychloroquine to Trump because it has not been proven to cure the deadly disease.

    Of course this is not true and the doctor is wrong and has no evidence to back up his claim.

    In the absolute sense nothing cures anything 100%. The proper expression is that HCQ is an effective treatment for C19 in most cases when used in combination with other drugs and supplements when used early in the progression of the virus.

    But notice nothing is recommended by the doctor. At least I didn’t see it. Neither has RHampton ever recommended anything.

  6. 6
    ET says:

    The President has said he was already taking hydroxychloroquine.

  7. 7
  8. 8
    AaronS1978 says:

    And here are some of the most tasteful responses from the left

  9. 9
    kairosfocus says:

    ET, details? Was he taking Zinc Supplements? C & D? KF

  10. 10
    News says:

    For the record, Erin O’Toole, the Conservative Party of Canada leader who could well be the next Prime Minister, is in lockdown due to testing positive for COVID-19. The wife of the current Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau, tested positive too.

    Canada not over. Sorry , folks.

    No, but seriously. Boris Johnson (Britain) and Jair Bolsonaro (Brazil) got it too.

    Again sorry, folks. Britain and Brazil are not over either.

    And Wokesters, hold your War on 2 + 2 = 4 somewhere else. This is actually a great opportunity for reality to kick in.

  11. 11
    ET says:

    Ooops. It looks like he took it for a while and then stopped. He took it back in May for a couple of weeks. I don’t know what else he is doing.

  12. 12
    jerry says:

    What does it mean to have the virus? I’m asking this for clarification not rhetoric.

    A positive test? Apparently the type of test could indicate a positive when only remnants of the disassociated virus are present.

    If the test is indicative of an active virus, how wide spread is it in body?

    The only known way I know of of defeating the virus is to have it and then for the immune system to eliminate it. Which means antibodies have to be created or already present in order to eliminate the virus.

    One aspect of HCQ is to prevent it from entering the cell via ACE2 receptors. This does not kill the virus but prevents it from replicating and neutralizing the action of these receptors. Other treatments also apparently affect cell entrance via ACE2 receptors.

    HCQ also enables zinc to enter cell where zinc will prevent the cell machinery from replicating the virus and killing the cell. It is believed other molecules such as quercetin and egcg or Epigallocatechin gallate, also act as ionospheres for zinc.

    In these latter cases one has had the virus but the immune system has eliminated it or is fighting it. For most this is a mild experience similar to a cold which everyone has experienced. There are apparently other treatments/drugs/supplements that have similar effects.

    There is also apparently the presence of proteins or cells before infection that attack the virus when it appears. The virus again will not progress very far. There are proposed treatments to inject these antibodies from others or cloned in laboratories. Again killing the virus after infection. In all these instances the person would appear positive but unlikely to be tested.

    The virus differs from common cold like viruses in that it attacks the ACE2 receptors and causes extensive damage if it proceeds too far. It may also cause extensive cell damage if the immune system does not defeat it early and an over-reaction by the immune system if it also proceeds too far.

    One of the reasons the elderly are vulnerable is because their immune system is often weak or less responsive. So supplements like vitamins C and D are useful. Vitamin D also has other functions besides can improved immune response.

    This is just an attempt from the top of my head to clarify what we know. In lots of ways C19 is just like the common cold but in other ways much more dangerous.

    We could also speculate on the rationale good or bad for lockdowns or the lack of a standard treatment by the medical community but that is another long thread.

  13. 13
    News says:

    Jerry at 12: This is all like the Surgisphere scandal in the sense that we are asked to “trust science” without knowing what it means and when we find out, it doesn’t seem to mean anything we can trust. Something’s gotta give.

  14. 14
    Truthfreedom says:

    12 Jerry

    The only known way I know of of defeating the virus is to have it and then for the immune system to eliminate it.

    The “perfect” mind of the scientist- naturalist has to rely on the “imperfect workings of evolutive products.” (Immune System).
    Hehehe. Ain’t it ironic? Those very “intelligent” atheists/ naturalists can not do what a “dumb” process can. 🙂

  15. 15
    kairosfocus says:

    We must remember too that PCR tests detect several orders of magnitude below where an infection is effective. there is a debate on that too. KF

  16. 16
    Truthfreedom says:

    If I were a science worshipper (which I am not), I would be very disappointed with my goddess. Very, very disappointed. 🙂

    I hope the 3 of them get well soon.

  17. 17
    Mac McTavish says:

    Given his behavior in recent months, I don’t think that anyone is surprised that he has caught the virus. It will be interesting to see how many of his family and staff will test positive in the next few days.

    KF

    We must remember too that PCR tests detect several orders of magnitude below where an infection is effective. there is a debate on that too. KF

    Do you have a reference for this? It was my understanding that the biggest problem with the test is the high false-negative rate. Not that the analytical part of the test is not sensitive, but that the sample collection is fraught with uncertainty.

  18. 18
    News says:

    Mac McTavish at 17: You write: “Given his behavior in recent months, I don’t think that anyone is surprised that he has caught the virus.”

    As noted above at 10, MANY public figures have tested positive, including persons who might be thought among the Woke to be pillars of virtue.

    The obvious link is not presence or absence of Virtue but the need, in high politics, to constantly interact with a variety of figures from all over the globe. That’s probably what hit Sophie Trudeau (Canadian PM’s wife). The average Canadian woman can hide in her basement on emergency benefits relief if she wants. Not Sophie. Not Melania either, it seems. She interacted and got hit too.

    I bet all these people recover just fine. None of them have underlying conditions, so far as we know.

    Cease chortling, even if you think you are immune.

  19. 19
    kairosfocus says:

    MMT,

    On Aug 9 you participated in a UD thread on the disease trajectory. Kindly look at it’s OP to see the order of mag viral load detection threshold issue:

    https://uncommondescent.com/medicine/on-the-trajectory-of-covid-19-and-similar-diseases/

    Note onward links etc from comment 10 on.

    KF

  20. 20
    kairosfocus says:

    News, solid point. KF

  21. 21
    jerry says:

    It was my understanding that the biggest problem with the test is the high false-negative rate.

    There has been a lot of discussion of false positives not negatives recently. But like anything there is debate on what it means. From what I understand a positive test may indicate that sometime in the past one had the virus but not necessarily at present. So is that a false positive if you had the virus 6 months ago and not now but remnants of it show up in a PCR test? I have no ideas how long such remnants could last but apparently they do so.

    I suggest you do a search for it and CT cycle. Apparently the higher the CT cycle the more likely a positive but it maybe less infectious. Like nearly everything these days, the reports are slanted towards one’s political point of view even the so-called science sites.

    https://bit.ly/34gH0EJ

  22. 22
    daveS says:

    Mac McT & KF,

    Somewhat OT, but have you seen this tweet by a Republican woman who ran for Congress this year against Nancy Pelosi?

    Text of the tweet:

    Does anyone else find it odd that no prominent Democrats have had the virus but the list of Republicans goes on and on?

    It is a mystery… 🙂

  23. 23
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: It seems son, Barron is negative; so are the Pences, Jared, Ivanka. Mrs Barrett, too. KF

  24. 24
    jerry says:

    find it odd that no prominent Democrats have had the virus but the list of Republicans goes on and on?

    What is the end game for the virus? Does anyone believe it will go away or be eliminated? If so, then do we all have to get the virus? And is a lack of some not getting the virus nothing more than postponing the inevitable? Is the spread of the virus to more and more people who are not high risk, the desired outcome? For example, should it be desirable that all college students get it? It is desirable that all politicians who are not high risk get it?

    This brings up the issues of lockdowns and treatment which are contentious but not on topic for this thread.

  25. 25
    Truthfreedom says:

    It’s good to know that Kary Mullis, the inventor of the PCR techique and Nobel Prize winner, had zero merit. Because he was nothing but an automata fueled by his neurochemicals and programmed by evolution. He is now dead but he certainly would have been very pleased to know what the naturalist brethren “thinks” of hard working people who contribute to society.

  26. 26
    john_a_designer says:

    Twitter allowed wishes of death against President Donald Trump from its verified leftist users to stay on the platform Friday morning after the President announced that he and First Lady Melania Trump tested positive for the Chinese coronavirus. Twitter clearly states that “hoping that someone dies as a result of a serious disease” is a violation of the platform’s terms of service, but has not taken widespread action against its “blue check” users.

    https://www.breitbart.com/tech/2020/10/02/twitter-verfied-users-wish-death-on-trump-violating-platforms-rules/

    Didn’t Twitter ban America’s Frontline Doctors a few month back? For what? For trying to speak out about a potential lifesaving therapy for Covid 19? Yes, HCQ is controversial because of some supposedly conflicting data but no one has proven that it is unsafe and ineffective. Furthermore, AFD is trying to speak out in an effort to save lives. They don’t have the free speech rights to do that? But on the other hand, it’s okay for certain politically motivated people to wish someone (in this case POTUS) dies from the disease. A hypocritical double standard? It sure looks like it to me.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8568579/Twitter-cancels-Don-Jr-s-account-access-posting-claim-hydroxychloroquine-cures-COVID.html

  27. 27
    rhampton7 says:

    White House chief of staff Mark Meadows told reporters Friday morning that he expects more people in the White House will test positive for the coronavirus following President Donald Trump’s diagnosis.

    Meadows was discussing the president’s symptoms, which he described as “mild,” and responding to a question about whether officials who were traveling with Trump on Thursday—including Dan Scavino, the deputy chief of staff for communications, and Jared Kushner, Trump’s adviser and son-in-law—plan to quarantine.

    “We’ve tested all of our core staff, and I can tell you that Mr. Kushner, Mr. Scavino, myself, a number of us have been tested and come back with negative results,” Meadows said. “And yet, at the same time, I fully expect that as this virus continues to go on, other people in the White House will certainly have a positive test result.”

    https://www.newsweek.com/trump-chief-staff-expects-more-positive-covid-tests-white-house-1536015

  28. 28
    rhampton7 says:

    Mr Trump’s physician Sean Conley said in a statement that the president had “as a precautionary measure received an 8g dose of Regeneron’s polyclonal antibody cocktail”, which is administered to help reduce virus levels and speed recovery.

    He was also taking zinc, vitamin D, famotidine, melatonin and aspirin, Dr Conley said.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-54391986

  29. 29
    rhampton7 says:

    Notice what is missing from Trump’s treatment?

  30. 30
    jerry says:

    Notice what is missing from Trump’s treatment?

    No one is saying HCQ is the only treatment for C19. In fact many of us have discussed several other parts of Trump’s treatment including zinc, vitamin D, Pepcid and melatonin. Today is the first I have heard of Regeneron’s combination.

    Let’s see how well Trump does. Let’s wish him well. Regeneron is especially interested for his treatment to be successful. One issue with the Regeneron treatment is that it requires an injection and not simple.

    Since it is an antibody treatment it is like injecting with a disinfectant that kills the virus. Wouldn’t it be ironic if it worked when Trump speculated on some type of injection as a way to kill the virus.

  31. 31
    rhampton7 says:

    disinfectants are poisonous. Look at the label of any you happen and have in the house, there will be a warning.

    Antibodies, likewise, are not sold in the supermarkets to clean your kitchen and bathroom.

  32. 32
    rhampton7 says:

    For months I was told that if a person started the HCQ cocktail within a few days of testing positive, then they were essentially going to be cured.

    So why would Trump’s doctor bypass such a phenomenal treatment as HCQ for an experimental cocktail that hasn’t made it out of clinical trials?

    Maybe, Just maybe, HCQ was never the effective treatment you always believed it to be.

  33. 33
    jerry says:

    Maybe, Just maybe, HCQ was never the effective treatment you always believed it to be.

    You still do not understand what has been recommended by people here on UD. No one has said HCQ is a magic cure.

    There is zero evidence that the HCQ treatment with zinc is not effective. Whether it’s 100% effective is not as issue. There is lots of evidence that it is very effective. There is also a $200,000 reward for anyone showing it is ineffective. Why doesn’t anyone come forth with the proof? Why it was not recommended for Trump, ask his doctor.

    I have no idea why an ionophore was not given to Trump. Maybe one was and it wasn’t mentioned. He is being given zinc. Also vitamin D, Pepcid and melatonin all on the prophylactic/treatment list of supplements and drugs.

    Also the definition of a disinfectant is anything that kills infectious microbes ( to cleanse by destroying, inactivating, or significantly reducing the concentration of pathogenic agents (such as bacteria, viruses, and fungi)). It doesn’t have to be poisonous. Washing with soap will inactivate viruses and is very distasteful and harmful in large amounts but is not poisonous. So soap is a disinfectant.

  34. 34
    Mac McTavish says:

    Since it is an antibody treatment it is like injecting with a disinfectant that kills the virus. Wouldn’t it be ironic if it worked when Trump speculated on some type of injection as a way to kill the virus.

    No, it wouldn’t be ironic. It would be irrelevant. Antibodies aren’t disinfectants. Bleach is. Peroxide is.

    Did I interpret his tweet wrong, or has he been transferred to hospital? That is not something that is done unless there are serious issues.

  35. 35
    john_a_designer says:

    Dr. Ronny Jackson, former White House physician under presidents Bush, Obama and Trump is interviewed about Trump’s condition. At the 4:00 minute mark he begins talking about possible treatments. Guess what he includes.

    https://video.foxnews.com/v/6196779143001?playlist_id=930909787001#sp=show-clips

  36. 36
    rhampton7 says:

    Jerry, I repeatedly told you there was no cure and EVERY single time you refuted me. Go look at your posting history. It’s right there.

  37. 37
    rhampton7 says:

    For example, this is what Jerry said on July 11, 2020 at 11:41 am

    “There has been a known cure for over three months but the political spectrum in the US has prevented this cure from being used except in isolated cases. There are now more cures known but these too are prevented from being implemented. So a lot of dead people to make a political point.

    That is what people should be upset about. But the dead are just statistics till one wants to make a specious political argument.”

    https://uncommondescent.com/philosophy/covid-19-and-fading-respect-for-big-science/

  38. 38
    Mac McTavish says:

    KF

    On Aug 9 you participated in a UD thread on the disease trajectory. Kindly look at it’s OP to see the order of mag viral load detection threshold issue:

    I didn’t understand your point then, and I don’t understand it now. PCR is a very sensitive test but is very prone to sampling error (ie, false negatives). Antigen tests are much less sensitive but have an important role as a quick and inexpensive initial screening tool.

    If I understand you correctly, you are critical of PCR because it can test as positive at the very end of the virus running its course, or long before it can be a problem. But you also claim that for HCQ to be effective, it must be administered at the very beginning of infection. A stage that antigen may not be sensitive enough to detect.

  39. 39
    Mac McTavish says:

    News

    Cease chortling, even if you think you are immune.

    I wasn’t chortling, and I don’t think I am immune. But I do take precautions. I haven’t been inside a restaurant or bar since March. I wear a mask anytime I am inside a public space. What I don’t do is hold crowded rallies (not that anyone would show up 🙂 ), or flaunt not wearing a mask as a virtue. Or encourage others to engage in these dangerous behaviors. Even your own Prime Minister engaged in social isolation before his wife got infected (back in the spring if my memory is correct), and isolated himself after she was infected.

    Trump was tested because Hicks tested positive. He received a positive diagnosis and rather than announce it immediately, he said that he was quarantining until the results came back. Why didn’t he announce it immediately?

  40. 40
    rhampton7 says:

    Dr. Stella Immanuel, the controversial woman who claimed Hydroxychloroquine is the potential cure for Coronavirus, has lamented that President Donald Trump is being given some experimental antibody, which she described as ‘stupidness.’

    She urged the president to immediately get on Hydroxychloroquine to get cured of Coronavirus.

    https://www.pmnewsnigeria.com/2020/10/03/trump-is-being-given-experimental-antibody-stupidness-dr-stella-immanuel/

  41. 41
    kairosfocus says:

    RH7, you can say “controversial” all you like . . . such now means little more than was publicly smeared and then locked out for failing to conform to the progressivist narrative partyline . . . the fact remains that she is one of the Frontline doctors who have put on the table a plausible causal model for efficacy, a model that is obviously hard to refute and which has been backed up by adequate performance as detected even in re-analysed hospitalisation statistics. KF

  42. 42
    kairosfocus says:

    MMT, the Ct value corresponds to viral load, i.e. concentration. It takes a certain critical mass to trigger actual significant symptoms and then the full blown U/L disease process leading to the second phase that is the main danger. Any test that detects viral load of that threshold level is a valid test for presence of the disease. The current argument is that the PCR protocol in use uses too many amplification cycles, leading to detection of small loads and remnants (some suggest, even from other viri) far below that threshold. It was also used to dismiss a test that is about 1/100th the cost, that could have easily become a daily test at home kit. That second test is effective a little below the critical viral load threshold, and would have been coupled to an early symptoms treatment regime that together would have rapidly suppressed spreading of the disease. BTW, if one is reinfected with a virus X, the immune system targets it and kills it off before its load gets to the threshold for that virus X, so immunity does not mean no infection but fighting it off before it is a problem. KF

  43. 43
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: Summary of treatment of Mr Trump (we can infer similar for Mrs Trump):

    “Following PCR-confirmation of the President’s diagnosis, as a precautionary measure he received a single 8 gram dose of Regeneron’s polyclonal antibody cocktail. He completed the infusion without incident. In addition to the polyclonal antibodies, the President has been taking zinc, Vitamin D, famotidine, melatonin and a daily aspirin,” Dr. Conley wrote in a letter released Friday afternoon. “As of this afternoon the President remains fatigued but in good spirits. He’s being evaluated by a team of experts, and together we’ll be making recommendations to the President and First Lady in regards to next steps.”

    In effect, similar to snake antivenin. Should work.

    He has evidently gone to Walter Reid out of the usual “abundance of caution” similar to Boris Johnson, and is expected to work from Presidential Offices there. (That is itself an interesting note.)

    KF

  44. 44
    awstar says:

    Jerry at 33

    There is zero evidence that the HCQ treatment with zinc is not effective.

    Isn’t HCQ just the poor man’s vehicle to deliver a load of zinc?

  45. 45
    kairosfocus says:

    AWS, no, it also has direct action, largely through being a weak base readily absorbed by cells. This interferes with several viral processes. See the marked up discussion based on Dr “Been” and the Frontline doctors, here in OP: https://uncommondescent.com/medicine/the-frontline-doctors-put-some-plausible-mechanisms-for-hydroxychloroquine-on-the-table/ That’s why it is now very hard to dismiss efficacy cogently; a weak base is readily seen from chemistry, and the sorts of effects are readily plausible. Of course, such is not in the usual media narratives. Likewise the attempt to paint it a major toxic hazard is grossly exaggerating a basic fact the old pharmaco prof in my uni was fond of using to shock first year med students with — pharmacology is the study of poisons in small doses. Even carrot juice, common salt, sugar and water can become toxic. KF

  46. 46
    jerry says:

    Isn’t HCQ just the poor man’s vehicle to deliver a load of zinc?

    I’m not sure what is meant by “poor man’s version?” If there is a more effective way, I haven’t seen it. It is very cheap,, about 20 cents per pill in US a couple months ago. So a poor man could afford it.

    Apparently quercetin and egcg also work as an ionophere but not as effective but are easily available. HCQ requires a prescription in the US. These other iodophors are also very inexpensive and it is possible to take zinc and an ionophore in recommended dosages for about 15 cents a day.

    As Kf has noted HCQ has other mechanisms for thwarting the virus. See my comments above at #5 and #12.

  47. 47
    ET says:

    I have been to restaurants and bars. I have been to crowded rallies. I only wear a mask when and where required- in grocery stores, for example.

    Maybe I am just lucky. Or maybe the prophylaxis is working.

    When Trump was on the hydroxychloroquine regiment he didn’t get the virus. Just lucky?

  48. 48
    ET says:

    Hydrogen peroxide is a disinfectant. And it has been administered intravenously for years for other diseases, like emphysema.

  49. 49
    ET says:

    Does anyone else find it odd that no prominent Democrats have had the virus but the list of Republicans goes on and on?

    And yet one Democratic congresswoman had it months ago and HCQ saved her! HCQ saves a Democrat!!!

  50. 50
    jerry says:

    Trump is also on Remdesivir. If he gets better, what will they attribute it to. Odds of getting better without doing anything are about 20 to 1.

    I should probably qualify this since the survival odds by age group has gotten better over time. This probably reflects more people of each age group being tested and better treatment.

    Of course if he doesn’t get better, sell your stock in Gilead and Regeneron. The two drugs reflect two different ways of fighting a virus, antibodies and interference with replicating. See #12 above.

    Lot of high profile cases in Washington.

    Trump is by definition, high risk for C19

  51. 51
    daveS says:

    Nice rejoinder there, ET 😛

  52. 52
    jerry says:

    Support for the Oligarchs? Is that what is behind the attacks on HCQ

    This is repeated from the Frontline Doctors thread but is appropriate when discussing HCQ
    ———-

    In an article on treating viruses

    The Treatment of Viral Diseases: Has the Truth Been Suppressed for Decades?

    The COVID-19 pandemic is calling attention to the potential for treating viral diseases with currently available drugs, and exposing long-available but ignored research.
    The implications of all this are very disturbing. Where have the virologists been, and the CDC “experts” who claim to care about influenza deaths? Has the burgeoning nearly trilliondollar vaccine industry been built at the expense of patients’ lives?

    the article considers a reason behind all the anti-HCQ hysteria. HCQ threatens the very large vaccine market. If a simple treatment can defeat the C19 virus could it or something similar also defeat the flu? Or any other virus disease? Even the common cold?

    We have been told for years that there is no treatment for the flu and similar viruses or the common cold except rest and our immune system. But would that all change if a simple treatment eliminated the need for a vaccine?

    https://bit.ly/3newztR

    Is it all about the money? Is it all about the power. Are those who oppose HCQ supporting the oligarchs in the drug industry and those in the technology industry. Trump by representing the little guy threatens them both and they represent a large percentage of the economy.

    Are all these dead just “dots?”

    See bit.ly/3aMWiC4

    for Ferris wheel scene in the Third Man as Harry Lyme talks about the dead as dots as he makes money off of an ineffective vaccine.

    Is this what the anti HCQ people are defending? It appears so.

    One death is tragic, a million is a statistic.

  53. 53
    kairosfocus says:

    Jerry, I don’t think greed is main driver. We should not underestimate the fallacy of telling truth or effectiveness by the clock, in a context where pandemics move fast by definition so the sweet spot is old approved drugs — cut out basic short and long term safety demonstration issues –with multiple action, e.g. HCQ is ionophore and a weak base that readily enters cells. But there is no market for this and with exceptions research is looking for the new not the old. Then factor in gold standard fallacy indoctrination and regulations locking them in regardless of the problem of needed speed in face of pandemic.Do not overlook that we are a lot weaker on logic than we are on statistics and mathematical modelling, so we can set up impressive apparatus on weak logic. This reinforces gold standard fallacies. Then bring in politics and ego, multiplied by people whose ethics are weak and will do evil in the name of doing good. A perfect storm of chaos brews. Greed then is secondary, probably working through need to do latest greatest big payoff items to maximise shareholder returns. BTW, that is one good reason for tax incentive structures and community or state funded research institutes. That is what Dr Raoult heads. KF

  54. 54
    jerry says:

    Kf,

    I have to disagree with you. Originally I thought it was all politics and related to Trump. It is obvious that’s what is going on here at UD. The anti HCQ posters here are all based on politics. None are profiting from this in any way financially.

    But then as medical authorities chimed in and spread obvious misinformation, I started to wonder. Was there a different motive behind a lot of this besides politics? Then the Lancet debacle was brushed aside like it never happened. Just consider what it would do to the pharmaceutical industry if the need for most vaccines and many drugs disappeared and replaced with extremely inexpensive and maybe better alternatives.

    If something like HCQ and zinc could treat the biggest threat of the last 50 years what else could simple combinations of drugs/supplements also treat?

    I don’t believe it is because we are weaker on logic or statistics. I do believe that evidence and logic will not overcome feeling or attitudes but people sure can use both when it suits them. So it is not because they cannot use them.

    A very informative site for C19 is https://rationalground.com

    and here are two articles on medical misinformation

    https://rationalground.com/mistake-or-manipulation/

    Here’s another one on herd immunity

    https://rationalground.com/educating-dr-fauci-on-herd-immunity-and-covid-19-completing-what-rand-paul-began/
    ——————
    An aside. the link above for the Third Man scene with Orson Wells is
    https://bit.ly/3aMWiC4

  55. 55
    daveS says:

    These dipsticks really screwed the pooch on this one. Weeks away from a critical election, and they can’t mask up and keep their hands off each other. It’s just incredibly irresponsible.

  56. 56
    JVL says:

    Jerry: for Ferris wheel scene in the Third Man as Harry Lyme talks about the dead as dots as he makes money off of an ineffective vaccine.

    Is this what the anti HCQ people are defending? It appears so.

    It’s a great scene, partially improvised apparently. And one of my favourite movies ever. The complete portrait of a shyster: clever, witty, opportunistic but cold blooded and self-centred to a fault.

    But the question is: which view agrees with the preponderance of the known science (acknowledging the fact that new data requires reevaluation of views)? I’m not talking about ‘plausible’ functionality, that’s why new drugs have to go through a long process of establishing that they are effective as opposed to just looking good in theory. I’m talking about established, clinical evidence. I am talking about taking in all the data not just picking and choosing.

    If someone wants to declare the truth when they have not looked at and considered all the evidence then they’ve got something to sell. If you’re right then you should be able to address everything even the stuff that is contrary to your view.

  57. 57
    jerry says:

    For those interested. A 126 studies on HCQ. https://c19study.com/

    126 HCQ studies
    76 peer reviewed
    Early treatment of COVID-19 with HCQ shows high efficacy

    Early down 64%
    PrEP down 49%
    All down 34%
    Late down 26%
    PEP down 24%

    PREP – pre exposure
    PEP – post exposure

    One of the negative studies on HCQ gave lethal doses to hospitalized patients already very sick. This was the Oxford Recovery study.

    Overwhelming evidence HCQ has some positive effect. So HCQ is safe, effective and incredibly cheap. No drug company is going to make any money off it, zinc, azithromycin, vitamin D or C or ivermectin or many other possibilities.

    So the moral question is why withhold it from anyone? Downside, nothing bad happens. Upside a million + get to live longer.

    One life is tragic, a million lives are just statistical dots.

    The real downside is for the drug companies who see their expensive treatments flying away and those politically invested in wanting to see the current political order upended.

  58. 58
    john_a_designer says:

    How effective are cloth masks stopping viruses?

    How effective is a chain link fence stopping mosquitos?

    Yes, I wear a mask when I go to the grocery store etc… not because I believe masks are effective but because masks are “required.”

  59. 59
    jerry says:

    because masks are “required.”

    Is the objective to have masks permanent? Some are saying that masks should have been used in past flu seasons because they would have reduced deaths with the intention of having them required anytime a virus appears such as every flu season. And definitely in schools.

  60. 60
    kairosfocus says:

    Jerry,

    First, masks. I think felted and cloth meshes with enough fuzz will exert intermolecular, London forces and will trap significant numbers of viri and more to the point droplets. Think of how a cloth duster picks up dust. So, an increment with other things.

    As to logic and evidence, after years here I am led to conclude that we are rotten at these. We simply have not been soundly taught. A lot of what looks like reasoning is more following the dominant narrative party line. Appeal to blind following of alleged consensus authority. On another case, I see a lot of it with the chattering classes nattering away on climate issues they haven’t got a clue on substantially. They also duly scorn whoever is the target of the two minute hate. Beyond this, too much of our statistics, mathematical modelling and computer simulation has been rooted in crucial logical and evidence errors at the beginning so they create a highly misleading aura of credibility. Taleb talks about Black Swans, and that’s one issue.

    In short, first we are not sound so we are vulnerable to winds and waves of seemingly prestigious claims or teachings solemnly announced as consensus (up to no true saxon type errors) and yes that makes us also open to cunning and craftiness of willfully deceitful power-hungry manipulators and the outright greedy.

    Then, BECAUSE what is genuinely true cannot match a crooked yardstick, those enmeshed in webs of folly will reject the truth.

    Sad.

    Sandbars of Syrtis ahead, on line of drift in the storm.

    KF

  61. 61
    mike1962 says:

    Trump “disinfectant”. He was talking about UV light. Not bleach some other liquid. Read the full context.

  62. 62
    Seversky says:

    Does anyone else find it odd that no prominent Democrats have had the virus but the list of Republicans goes on and on?

    There’s no accounting for taste?

    Democrats have been more rigorous in adopting precautionary measures?

    Cocktails of HCL and Clorox, even if shaken not stirred, don’t seem to work?

  63. 63
    Seversky says:

    Jerry/57

    For those interested. A 126 studies on HCQ. https://c19study.com/

    COVIDAnalysis network

    A network of websites that have cherry-picked and misrepresented research to promote hydroxychloroquine as a proven treatment for COVID-19, despite clinical trials finding that it is not effective.

    The COVIDAnalysis network, which includes
    C19Study.com, C19HCQ.com, and HCQTrial.com, does
    not disclose its ownership on the sites and would not
    disclose it to NewsGuard, nor could NewsGuard
    independently determine who owns the network. Thus,
    there is no way to know if the sites — which are not
    financed by advertising or subscriptions — are financed
    by those with a financial or political interest related to
    the promotion of hydroxychloroquine.

    […]

    The COVIDAnalysis network’s list of studies has
    repeatedly misrepresented the conclusions of clinical
    trials that found that hydroxychloroquine provided no
    benefit for COVID-19 patients.

    For example, the websites described a clinical trial at
    the University of Minnesota as being “positive” for the
    use of hydroxychloroquine for treating COVID-19, when
    the actual study reached a negative conclusion.
    The
    trial, involving 821 patients, found that
    hydroxychloroquine did not perform better than a
    placebo in preventing people from developing COVID19 after they were likely to have been exposed to
    someone who had been infected. The study was
    published in June 2020 in the New England Journal of
    Medicine.

    […]

    Boulware also said that the websites’ analysis included
    a fabricated quote about his own comments on the
    study. C19Study.com and C19HCQ.com cited a since-
    deleted tweet from a Twitter account named “T Lewis
    MD,” which said, “I personally spoke to Boulware about
    this study. He points out its many flaws. He also points
    out that day 1-3 use had statistical significance and he’s
    gearing his other studies accordingly. He intends to
    investigate this significance further.”

    Boulware told NewsGuard that he never spoke to
    anyone associated with that Twitter account, calling the
    comment attributed to him and cited by the
    COVIDAnalysis network “100% False – coming from
    someone who chose to make up a false statement on
    Twitter.”

    After NewsGuard asked the sites’ representative about
    Boulware’s comments, the websites removed the
    Twitter comment from the article. “We have removed a
    comment from Dr. Lewis because it was deleted and Dr.
    Boulware indicates it was incorrect,” an update note on
    C19Study.com and C19HCQ.com stated.

    The sites’ study list includes a clinical trial involving 400 patients, also conducted by researchers at the
    University of Minnesota and published in the Annals of
    Internal Medicine in July 2020, that concluded that
    hydroxychloroquine did not decrease the severity of
    COVID-19 symptoms over 14 days any better than a
    placebo in patients who were not hospitalized. The
    COVIDAnalysis network, however, listed the study’s
    results as “inconclusive” instead of “negative.”

    When NewsGuard asked what justified this
    interpretation of the study, the websites’ anonymous
    representative claimed the trial was ended prematurely.
    “The trial was supposed to have 1,242 patients. i.e.,
    they chose to stop it early although they knew at the
    time they would likely be reporting a statistically
    significant positive reduction if they continued,” the
    representative said. “Since they answer your questions,
    can you ask them why they stopped the trial early in the
    context of this information?”

    Asked about this, Boulware told NewsGuard that the
    websites’ statement that there “could be an unknown
    number of undetected fake surveys” in the trial was
    groundless. “Being that the majority of participants were
    healthcare workers, we don’t have any reason to
    believe that the participants who completed surveys
    (many of whom we had email or phone conversations
    with), are at all ‘fake,’” he said. “We did screen out and
    exclude a few persons from participating in the trial who
    did not have valid emails, phone numbers, addresses,
    or provided inconsistent information during the
    screening procedures.”

  64. 64
    ET says:

    seversky:

    Democrats have been more rigorous in adopting precautionary measures?

    By hiding and not doing their jobs. 😛

  65. 65
    jerry says:

    For those interested in the effectiveness of masks, here is a video that provides an extensive look at research data for all types of masks. It is about an hour long and very thorough. https://bit.ly/3ixFt1T

    Recommend that if you look at it, do so on a computer. I tried an iPad and had difficultly controlling it but had no problem on a computer.

  66. 66
    kairosfocus says:

    Seversky, trying to pull a stunt with a chlorox reference simply underscores your lack of credibility. KF

  67. 67
    jerry says:

    The COVIDAnalysis network’s list of studies has repeatedly misrepresented the conclusions of clinical trials that found that hydroxychloroquine provided no benefit for COVID-19 patients

    Each study links to the report of the actual study and are there for anyone to look at. You are wrong about the Boulware study. They are positive for HCQ, just that they do not reach statistical significance. They are crappy studies nevertheless but the results favor HCQ just not enough to meet statistical significance.

    Boulware originally wanted to use hospitalization but couldn’t find enough people who were hospitalized so changed the criteria of the study. They were done on the wrong population, and infection was not verified for most in the study and no doctor or researcher ever saw any of the subjects. They were contacted by social media and then shipped treatments. As I said it was a crappy study but was slightly positive for HCQ,

    From what I understand bogus studies about HCQ while Boulware was recruiting made it hard to recruit people for a study. Especially when the bogus studies were saying HCQ had negative effects.

    The COVIDAnalysis network, which includes C19Study.com, C19HCQ.com, and HCQTrial.com, does not disclose its ownership on the sites and would not
    disclose it to NewsGuard, nor could NewsGuard independently determine who owns the network. Thus, there is no way to know if the sites — which are not financed by advertising or subscriptions — are financed by those with a financial or political interest related to the promotion of hydroxychloroquine.

    There is no financial interest in HCQ. It is nearly as cheap as aspirin so no one is going to make much money on it. It is a generic drug.

    Also all the studies are available to see what they say. So nothing is being hidden. My guess is that there are people who are anti-HCQ who would want to know who is behind this so they can attack him. I once saw someone on Twitter who claimed to run the site but Twitter took down his account. He was from Ireland. Twitter does that frequently and sometimes permanently. They recently took Zelenko off for a week because he said zinc works. Another person who was reporting news on HCQ was gone for two weeks. He just returned. Another was permanently taken off who was very careful In what he was saying.

  68. 68
    rhampton7 says:

    The question I asked above is being asked by others on the right:

    October 2, 2020 (LifeSiteNews) — I am following the little information we have so far about how President Trump and his wife Melania are being treated for their Wuhan virus infection. I find it alarming that Trump is not being treated with the protocols that numerous physicians have been successfully using for their COVID-infected patients. What on Earth is going on?

    Why are they using a drug for “late-stage trials” when Trump is frequently tested, was only just found to be positive and is in an “early stage” of the disease that logically calls for Hydroxychloroquine plus zinc and an antibiotic that produces excellent results in early stages?

    He should have immediately been put on the hydroxychloroquine protocol that the Frontline Doctors, epidemic and anthrax specialist Dr. Meryl Nass, renowned Yale professor of epidemiology Dr. Harvey Risch, U.S. doctor Stephen Smith and numerous doctors in other nations, doctors in India, the renowned French professor Dr. Didier Raoult, professor Dolores Cahill, and many more — all insist the evidence is “overwhelming” that this protocol is amazingly effective in correct, early use treatment of COVID-infected patients.

    It is reckless that this is not being done because there is no risk to giving it to Trump even if the medical bureaucrats still ridiculously refuse to believe that Hydroxychloroquine is effective. I mean, how many thousands more lives have to be saved and how many thousands more people have to personally testify that they would not still be alive but for the courageous, caring doctors who went out on a limb and gave then this drug, before these stubborn bureaucrats finally get out of the way of real medicine?

    https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/trump-should-receive-this-effective-covid-treatment-immediately-why-isnt-he

  69. 69
    kairosfocus says:

    RH7, we can wait a few days for things to resolve themselves. Meanwhile, the Dr “Been” mechanisms speak for themselves. So do the facts on manageable toxicity. In that context, we have become sick of the media and institutional credibility manipulation games and things are going to work out in ways that will be unexpected. KF

  70. 70
  71. 71
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: Sky News Australia, on Media and celebrity speculation regarding Mr Trump’s treatments and his doctor’s reports. The leading doctor states that he asked about HCQ but is not on it, i.e. it is his physician’s regime he is following. He has had survivor antibody treatment, has had a second dose of remdesivir (effectively, a substitute for one of the 20 AAs that blocks effective protein formation), and is known to be on Zn, vits C and D. (I assume some sort of supplementary ionophore like Quercetin is also being taken.) He was feverish and feeling run down, but has been free of fever for a day [plus now, presumably] and is “feeling better,” a sign that he is on the recovery road after a relatively mild case. His blood oxygen levels per report released have been at 96 – 98% i.e. he has not suffered the sort of heavy invisible lung damage that Dr Raoult reported based on a large number of CT scans of early phase patients. Based on a case here, what doctors call mild can have you feeling pretty smashed. In short the L-flatline after catastrophic decline trajectory is effectively off the table and the U-trajectory has been shallowed out. This suggests, he will be in a recovery, light work phase for some days and will be back to work under orders not to overdo things soon. That will doubtless include banning the reputed 18 hour workdays he is said to commonly turn in. KF

    PS: It seems there has been a cluster of infections among the Republican delegation/aides connected to the Cleveland debate, with further pointing to people preparing the site. That raises questions on protective protocols being used and how carefully work people were screened, how well and regularly surfaces were cleaned etc. esp. by contrast with the WH. Was there surface contamination and spreading?

    PPS: BTW, how available is isopropyl alcohol just now? (It is typically made from petroleum.)

    PPPS: In my view there seems to be better support for HCQ and cocktails esp with Ivermectin in play, than for Remdesivir. The antibody treatment is strictly experimental but similar treatments are longstanding. I again note that the Dr “Been” mechanisms are quite plausible– no one seriously disputes ionophore effect with Zn’s action, and HCQ is a weak base that will readily get into cells so it is credible that it will interfere with viral hijacking of the cells and the multiplication cascade — and toxicity is clearly manageable.

  72. 72
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: All of this is not just of current interest, it goes to the deep seated problems we have with evidence, logic, prudence and selective hyperskepticism driven by party-spiritedness, indoctrination, media manipulation [including big tech censorship] and ideology . . . often, dressed up in lab coats and doctor’s white jackets. KF

  73. 73
    ET says:

    The President is being treated with every known remedy for covid-19. So I don’t know what RH7 is babbling about.

  74. 74
    kairosfocus says:

    Super-cocktail!

  75. 75
    daveS says:

    From the videos, it’s obvious that Trump is doing relatively well. Those photos of him signing what appear to be random blank sheets of paper are a bit silly though. If he’s really doing “work”, maybe they should show him meeting with advisors via teleconference or on the phone at least.

  76. 76
    Mac McTavish says:

    Of note is the dramatic decline in his twitter activity.

  77. 77
    Mac McTavish says:

    KF

    It seems there has been a cluster of infections among the Republican delegation/aides connected to the Cleveland debate, with further pointing to people preparing the site.

    It probably didn’t help that Trump’s camp at the debate refused to wear masks even after being reminded of the venue’s rule.

    There is also a cluster of cases associated with the WH event to present Trump’s SCOTUS nominee, most of whom also did not wear masks.

  78. 78
    Mac McTavish says:

    It turns out that he was receiving supplemental oxygen on Thursday and Friday. And they don’t provide this unless you have significant reduction in blood oxygen.

  79. 79
    kairosfocus says:

    MMT, too many malicious leaks and irresponsible reporters/media for too long to take anything but the direct statement of responsible physician. What I noted above comes from that. In a few days we will know the outcome, which looks highly likely to be favourable. Which is what counts. KF

  80. 80
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: Doctors further states. The suggestion is he could be released as soon as Monday. The timeline indicates high fever Fri AM, and yes 2 l O2 at WH, returning from 94% to 95%. It seems a drop to 93% apparently Sat AM. Scans seem to indicate some “expected” lung signs, but apparently not of concern. Lung respiratometry is over 2500 ml. Also Dexamethasone. 5 days remdesivir (with other meds). He is reported clearly in recovery. KF

  81. 81
    john_a_designer says:

    According to Business Insider from Feb. of 2020:

    People are racing to buy face masks amid the coronavirus outbreak, but they probably won’t protect you from illness…

    For the average person, wearing a mask is not as effective a prevention measure as everyday actions like hand-washing and avoiding close contact with anyone who might be infected.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/wuhan-coronavirus-face-masks-not-entirely-effective-2020-1

    Since Feb. of this year we have been told at least four different things about masks:

    First, we were told that masks are not very effective.

    Then we were told, “Well, masks might be somewhat effective.”

    After that we were told that masks were recommended but then…

    In some states, like mine (Ohio,) masks are not just recommended they are now mandatory.

    (Talk about moving the goal posts!)

    What’s next? You’re not even allowed to question the efficacy of masks or you’re guilty of a thought crime?

    Believe it or not that has already happened.

    Are masks really about the public’s health and safety or are they about control?

  82. 82
    daveS says:

    KF,

    MMT, too many malicious leaks …

    Perhaps even some by Trump’s own chief of staff…

  83. 83
    Mac McTavish says:

    Given Trump’s recent debacle over ProudBoys I found this humorous. Over on Twitter the #proudboys hashtag is being swamped with LGBQ images. That has to be the most peaceful, and hard-hitting protest I have seen in a while. 🙂 🙂 🙂

    [SNIP, offensive imagery linked]

  84. 84
    jerry says:

    Given Trump’s recent debacle over ProudBoys

    What debacle?

    Here is the national leader of the proud boys who proudly endorses Trump. Did Trump choose wisely?

    https://bit.ly/3iuQwcu

    I suggest Chris Wallace interview him.

  85. 85
    Mac McTavish says:

    Given that Dexamethasone has only been shown to be effective in later, serious stages of the disease, I think it is reasonable to conclude that his complications were far more serious than has been reported.

  86. 86
    daveS says:

    Trump greeting supporters outside the hospital:

    https://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/1312869216954077186

  87. 87
    kairosfocus says:

    MMT, first, the actual track record of the transcript is the opposite of your spin. Second, it turns out the organisation is multiracial in leadership and apparently just had a joint presser in IIRC Utah with a BLM splinter. The narrative is false and is part of why the major media are in the do not trust bin. Finally, kindly refrain from sexual perversities and obsessions. KF

  88. 88
    kairosfocus says:

    DS, at this point the major media just hit zero point on credibility, so there is no interest in their uncorroborated narratives, malicious leakers and anonymous sources. Lucy has pulled the football away too many times, it’s over. And yes, Mr Trump seems to have done a drive past to encourage his supporters and I guess to get some outside view instead of being cooped up. He knows many supporters will for cause refuse to believe the media spun narratives but want assurance. Looks like he is likely indeed to be going home soon. KF

  89. 89
    john_a_designer says:

    Here is a follow up of my post @ # 81 where I asked,

    What’s next? You’re not even allowed to question the efficacy of masks or you’re guilty of a thought crime?

    Believe it or not that has already happened.

    According to a CBS News account posted on 8/21/20:

    The former Navy SEAL who claims he’s the one who killed Osama bin Laden during a 2011 raid tweeted on Thursday that he was banned from Delta Air Lines for not wearing a mask. Robert O’Neill took a maskless selfie of himself on Delta flight on Wednesday, posting it on Twitter with a vulgar caption…

    Delta confirmed that O’Neill had been banned adding the following statement.

    “Part of every customer’s commitment prior to traveling on Delta is the requirement to acknowledge our updated travel policies, which includes wearing a mask,” Delta said in a statement. “Failure to comply with our mask-wearing mandate can result in the ability to fly Delta in the future.”

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/navy-seal-robert-oneill-delta-airlines-bans-face-mask/

    However, it doesn’t appear that CBS made any effort to reach out to O’Neill for a comment.

    Fox Business did. O’Neill told them “that he only removed his mask to eat and drink during the flight and his actions did not constitute a violation of Delta’s policy.”

    https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/navy-seal-banned-delta-mask-meeting-ceo-ed-bastian

    O’Neill added that he was not “anti-mask.” But what would it matter if he was as long as he was willing to comply with Delta’s policy? Like I said the mask issue has morphed into something beyond a concern for the public’s health and safety. Whatever that is, neither the government nor big business has the right to control person’s thoughts or beliefs. Of course the “woke” PC left just loves the mask issue. It gives them virtually unlimited opportunities for virtue signaling.

  90. 90
    daveS says:

    KF,

    Well, Mark Meadows inadvertently blurted out information to reporters on camera, asking to be kept “off the record”. I guess it could have been planned with Trump’s approval, but that’s far-fetched.

    Nice of Trump to expose his drivers to the virus so he could bask in the applause, wasn’t it? They were wearing protective gear, but the risk was completely unnecessary.

  91. 91
    ET says:

    Strange that only the haters and the ignorant proclaim that the Proud Boys are a white supremacists’ group.

    Enrique Tarrio insists that the Proud Boys aren’t White supremacists, and he would be in a position to know. For one, he’s the international chairman. For another, he’s Black.

    And I would expect the President to get the full treatment, regardless of the stage of the disease. Mac and cheese must be the most agenda-driven, clueless troll on this blog.

  92. 92
    ET says:

    daves:

    Nice of Trump to expose his drivers to the virus so he could bask in the applause, wasn’t it?

    Did he? There isn’t a divider between the driver and the passenger? Really?

  93. 93
    daveS says:

    ET,

    A fair point, no doubt there’s a divider, which reduces the risk.

  94. 94
    ET says:

    I am sure the driver also volunteered- knew the risks and accepted the consequences. Those guys tend to wear the big boy pants.

  95. 95
    kairosfocus says:

    DS, I note the docs said the media wrenched the story. Your remarks suggest betrayal. Do you think that is going to make me take anything they have to say as anything more than the pratings of the irretrievably perjured? It’s over with the media as a whole. They gambled on wrecking their last shreds of credibility to wreck a surprise US president and outsider they didn’t have control hooks into and lost. In a few weeks, they will doubtless be using remaining influence to stir up 4GW chaos, finally sealing their accursed state. At this point it’s they went out and it was night time. It’s over, save yourself from an untoward generation. KF

  96. 96
    kairosfocus says:

    ET, he knew his troops needed a strong morale boost and a contact with undeniable truth. He put on a mask — yup, the usual suspects just exposed that deep down they know it’s more virtue signal than substance in many cases! — went out with volunteers and touched base; face to face. Besides, we shouldn’t be surprised if his virus count is way down. KF

  97. 97
    Mac McTavish says:

    KF@87, the reason I brought it up is because of the hypocrisy of your repeated denouncement of BLM because some of their followers resort to violence, yet you refuse to denounce proudboys even though some of their followers resort to violence. Is it so difficult for you to understand that a movement shouldn’t be painted with a tainted brush simply because they can’t control all those who claim to be in the same movement?

  98. 98
    daveS says:

    KF,

    You keep saying “it’s over”, but I would wager in 16 months, you’ll still be posting here. The global situation will be no worse than it is now, and likely somewhat improved. To borrow a quip, you’ve predicted 5 of the last 0 collapses of western civilization.

  99. 99
    kairosfocus says:

    MMT, what rubbish. I have never endorsed said group nor do I actually know enough substantial about them to give a clear conclusion. Save two things, I know not to trust the gaslighting machines and their narratives and it is obvious that their narrative here cannot be right if these are a group with multi-ethnic leadership. I am not going to take the narrative of known liars, slanderers and perjurers at face value, period. And that is something I for cause can see. If they are rioters, that falls directly under the stricture that not even in a lawful oligarchy is there excuse for riot. When I know enough to come to a conclusion, I will speak from evidence. Meanwhile, just know that over 30 years ago I had to deal with agit prop and cultic brain washing. I know the smell of groupthink partyline indoctrination only too well, and where that game ends. KF

  100. 100
    kairosfocus says:

    DS, I spell it out: the major dominant narrative media are dead to me, I for cause regard them as the willfully perjured, deceivers, schemers against sound civilisation, misanthropes and enablers of misanthropes, enemies of sound conscience, killers of the soul, sold on evil, seeking to buy and sell the souls of men to the highest devilish bidder in a hellish market of deception. The willfully dishonourable. Credibility, for cause, nil. KF

  101. 101
    Mac McTavish says:

    Dave

    KF,

    You keep saying “it’s over”, but I would wager in 16 months, you’ll still be posting here. The global situation will be no worse than it is now, and likely somewhat improved. To borrow a quip, you’ve predicted 5 of the last 0 collapses of western civilization.

    So, which is more appropriate? Chicken Little or The Boy Who Cried Wolf?

  102. 102
    rhampton7 says:

    Still no HCQ. Funny that they caught the infection so quickly and yet refused to implement the “cure”:

    President Donald Trump, who recently tested positive for the coronavirus, is now being treated with dexamethasone, a type of steroid that is often used to treat severely ill COVID-19 patients.

    As part of his care regimen so far, Trump has been treated with Regeneron Pharmaceuticals Inc.’ REGN still-investigational antibody treatment, Gilead Sciences Inc.’s GILD remdesivir, supplemental oxygen at least once, and now dexamethasone, in that order, according to Dr. Sean Conley, Trump’s physician.

    https://www.marketwatch.com/story/trumps-coronavirus-diagnosis-underscores-lack-of-treatment-options-for-people-with-mild-forms-of-covid-19-2020-10-02

  103. 103
    rhampton7 says:

    India is the world’s manufacturing center for HCQ and yet……

    Unconfirmed reports of US President Donald Trump taking an experimental drug after testing positive for coronavirus infection underline how Covid therapies have constantly changed over 10 months.
    India began its Covid-19 treatment protocol in March with antimalarial drug hydroxychloroquine (HCQS) taking centre stage, but it is no longer spoken about.

    Everything in Covid care is speculative at the moment, said Dr Shashank Joshi, a member of the state task force on Covid-19. “We are only sure about supportive therapies such as oxygen or prone position helping patients breathe better,” he said.

    There is also evidence of the steroid dexamethasone working well for critically ill patients.

    In India, the treatment schedule almost uniformly followed across the country involved the new antivirals favipiravir and remdesivir.

    Dr Rahul Pandit, a member of the state task force on Covid, said it is best to start patients in hospitals with antivirals. “Mild patients are given favipiravir while those with oxygen concentration of less than 94 are given remdesivir,” he said.

    A doctor pointed out that many patients did not prefer favipiravir because of the cost factor. “The entire course of favipiravir tablets costs Rs 8,000-9,000. People prefer to take the inexpensive combination of anti-parasitic drug ivermectin and antibiotic doxycycline,” he said.

    A BMC doctor said the invermectin-doxycycline combination is good for mildly ill patients who choose home isolation.

    https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/hcq-to-trumps-new-drug-a-tale-of-changing-therapies/articleshow/78470912.cms

  104. 104
    ET says:

    Never heard of the proud boys looting, rioting and trying to burn down businesses, churches and federal courts.

  105. 105
    ET says:

    The President took hydroxychloroquine back in May. These days we have more information available so I would expect he would be taking the up-to-date treatments.

  106. 106
    ET says:

    daves- Now people are whining that the President’s SUV is sealed for gas attack purposes. And that the air inside is circulated. But again, his compartment would be sealed from the rest and/ or the circulated air would be heavily filtered to keep it all nice and clean. Airlines have had it figured out for decades.

  107. 107
    kairosfocus says:

    DS (attn MMT),

    I add, we are manifestly in the storm as we speak with line of drift to sandbars of Syrtis and you are in denial.

    Let’s start with how the USA is geostrategic centre of gravity of our civilisation which has been undergoing a manifest decline and growing decadence for generations, seen in hollowing out of moral fabric, rise of holocaust of our living posterity in the womb, rise of mass confusion and indoctrination leading to deep-set polarisations.

    The associated disintegration of integrity and credibility of the political-policy system sets up the sort of breakdown that by the 40’s BC led Rome to lifelong dictatorship. The Republic failed, the Imperium was a mark of a fatally polarised, failed state. It almost collapsed in the 200’s then was divided by its leadership in the 300’s and the W part disintegrated by the late 400’s leading to a millennium of chaos. The E went into a lengthy decline to a rump state, with pivot in the 1060’s – 70’s when accession of incompetent leadership led to loss of central Anatolia (and its scorched earth ruination by enemies), which BTW was part of the context of begging for help through the crusades. One of these actually attacked the rump state on influence of Venice, leading to fatal final decline and fall by 1453. The surge into E Europe was stopped 1683 at the gates of Vienna.

    You are in a 4GW, McFaul colour revolution playbook, cultural revolution with backed red guards running riot, where 48 of 50 leading cities have suffered riot, arson, looting, mayhem etc, with police on obvious order to stand by.

    You have an election in progress where utterly discredited socialism is being advocated by those who neither understand its dangers to liberty nor its economic policy bankruptcy (i.e. failed education, malevolent, manipulated dominant media), and a mode of voting has been injected that is manifestly outright calculated to cause chaos and to compromise integrity of voting, counts and courts; under false colours of pandemic protection. You have proposals to destabilise the balance of States, Supreme Court and protective Electoral college (which forces 50 elections in parallel).

    In a month or so, you enter a chaotic election with aftermath running to January when a President must be sworn in, under circumstances where at this stage 1/2 the citizens will feel disenfranchised. That is the pact of accepting elections and basic legitimacy of major parties rooted in a consensus of constitutional democracy pivoting on natural law rights, freedoms and duties has been broken since the early 2000’s and the breach came by power grab from the left. That will predictably be chaotic, where red guards are already running riot, backed by McFaul power brokers seeking to discredit the election.

    Here is the playbook, which you obviously paid not one whit of attention to:

    The years since 2000 have seen a surprising new wave of democratic breakthroughs in the postcommunist countries of Serbia, Georgia, and Ukraine. This article compares and contrasts these three cases, naming seven common factors which made the breakthroughs in these countries possible:

    1) a semi-autocratic rather than fully autocratic regime [–> or perception];
    2) an unpopular incumbent [–> alt., media manipulation to demonise and stir critical mass of hostility];
    3) a united and organized opposition [–> so, shadowy, orchestrating networks];
    4) an ability quickly to drive home the point that voting results were falsified [–> i.e. media narrative domination, which can be just as easily used to slander a scapegoat],
    5) enough independent media to inform citizens about the falsified vote [–> too often, this may be the orchestrated media],
    6) a political opposition capable of mobilizing tens of thousands or more demonstrators to protest electoral fraud [–> or, red guards as cannon fodder], and
    7) divisions among the regime’s coercive forces [–> what of, nests of the connected embedded in state, policing and law-making arms].
    [See: Transitions from Post Communism, Journal of Democracy Volume 16, Number 3 July 2005]

    Do you not see the matches that were being played with in the corruption of courts, policing agencies and intelligence agencies since 2016? Do you not recognise the damage done through media enabling and trumpeting of same and a sham impeachment that on flimsy excuse sought to turn the US system into a parliamentary veto?

    In the Westminster system, Prime Ministers are NOT directly elected, representatives are. The PM is by definition whoever commands majority of the lower elected house. In the US, the President is elected through vote of an Electoral College enforcing locality and is one of just two nationally elected figures, i.e. his running mate is also similarly elected and serves as President of the Senate. Neither is like European presidents that are directly elected, which can and does lead to destabilisation. Further to this, impeachment is reserved for high crimes and misdemeanours on yardstick of treason. Hence the flimsy slander used some months back and the further campaign of defamation on dubious intelligence report.

    After January, the contention and chaos predictably will continue but should have a reasonably clear outcome by the end of 2021.

    Nearly fatal damage has already been done to the consensus of civil peace. Demands that cannot be met have been indoctrinated into pivotal groups and interests. Red guards are already in the streets and urban centres are set up for chaos.

    Assume a D “victory” and attempts to prosecute the leadership of the other party on the sort of trumped up, media trumpeted accusations already seen, mixed with a parallel court packing to say 12 or 13 in the already deteriorated Supreme Court, a super legislature for life. Where, locking in holocaust of the unborn, destroying the second amendment right to keep and bear arms (including persecuting those foolish enough to try to defend themselves from red guard mobs), mandating impossible socialistic and green deal agendas as well as capturing the media are all predictable. With state packing in train. Then there is line up with the two minute hate agenda or else: silence or questioning of the latest Critical X-Theory demands and ideological assertions are targetting-for-ruin invitations. Where, X ranges far and wide, rooted in Marxism. The hinterland peasantry will want to walk away from the urban dominated, corrupt election union.

    Alternatively, after bruising court fights, the man openly accused of being a nazi, racist and traitor wins, likely with Senate and House majorities. The already rioting red guards in their protected enclaves go to eleven.

    On either fork, the geostrategic vultures scent opportunity. (Actually, they have likely been part of fomenting the chaos.)

    Now, you tell me why my concerns are not realistic.

    KF

  108. 108
    kairosfocus says:

    RH7, neither you nor any of your clips can seriously show that the weak basec direct cellular action and Zn ionophore effect of HCQ are not plausible. Azithromycin is an antibiotic targetting respiratory tract secondary infections and with some antiviral action too. Risks are manageable. Reanalysis of statistics even on hospitalisation, shows that yes, there is indeed significant effect. The political and gold standard fallacy kill on HCQ is a contribution to further discrediting the progressivist establishment. KF

    PS: It makes sense for the President to take antibody therapies, which was confirmed as a one dose intervention. Antivenin and antibody treatments are long since well established. Looks like they worked too. As for Remdesivir, it is less effective than HCQ. He is confirmed to be on Zn, Vits C and D, suggesting ionophore supplements. He is going with the regime of establishment doctors, given the chaotic circumstances. I think the antibody stuff is the decisive intervention. I assume he is on an antibiotic too, we are not getting the full picture.

  109. 109
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: It seems there is a storm in a teacup over President Trump’s morale-boosting drive-out, complete with demands for two-minute hate virtue-signalling. Sadly revealing. Here is a corrective:

    https://twitter.com/CBS_Herridge/status/1312906142968930305?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

    Catherine Herridge
    @CBS_Herridge
    ·
    12h
    NEW: Doctors okayed POTUS drive-by supporters. Deputy Press Secretary tells @markknoller
    “Appropriate precautions were taken in the execution of this movement to protect POTUS + all those supporting it, including PPE…cleared by the medical team as safe to do.” @CBSNews

    My bet is, they thought it would do his morale good and was in accord with his role as national leader and politician.

    KF

  110. 110
    daveS says:

    KF,

    Now, you tell me why my concerns are not realistic.

    I don’t think that would be useful. I’m trying a different tack: Getting you to put some falsifiable predictions on the record. As events unfold, we will see who has the better record. If one of us ends up with a significantly better record than the other, then arguably that person has a better understanding of what is happening in the US at the moment.

  111. 111
    jerry says:

    The current medical treatment for C19 is only palliative care. Could Trump set an example that there are treatments. If he recovers quickly, there is nothing to point to except that he received several treatments other than palliative care. But that should set the medical recommendations in a different direction.

    Also not one of the critics here has taken on the issue of “Must we all get the virus?” What is the end game? Is it a good thing for all young adults and children that they get exposed to the virus? Why and Why not?

    In other words, is all this mask wearing and ultra precautions nothing more than virtue signaling? And actually counter productive.

    By the way, the mask video I linked to above said the typical masks used in the world are actually worse than not wearing masks for getting infections. Masks become a breeding ground for disease as the moisture and viral particles get trapped in the mask. How true it that?

    People are starting to publish graphs on when mask mandates were implemented in various cities and countries and the number of positive tests found afterward. There is nothing in these graphs to support mask wearing as effective in preventing infections. And as we have seen most infections are no more dangerous than the common cold.

    And maybe for those at high risk, treatment could alleviate the infections before they progress very far.

  112. 112
    daveS says:

    Jerry,

    Also not one of the critics here has taken on the issue of “Must we all get the virus?”

    I’m assuming not. Anyway, I’m trying to miss this one, at least until I’m vaccinated.

  113. 113
    kairosfocus says:

    DS, kindly scroll up to the McFaul playbook, in marked up form. Compare to what has been happening to the US and is continuing to happen. Note the declared agendas and underlying ideologies/theories. Notice policy statements. Observe what has already been declared about contending the election i/l/o the US Supreme Court controversies, both on replacing a vacancy and court-packing. Notice what has already happened to people trying to defend themselves from the mob, including a man being choked who on being locked off from livelihood and means of raising support for defence, committed suicide on being summoned to kangaroo court. There is a lot more. Notice what already happened post 2016. Then observe what I have pointed out as incidents and trends. We are not dealing with predictions out of the blue but historically informed analysis of what is already going on. Things have already happened that go way too far. As for geostrategic vultures, remind yourself on the post Vietnam Communist surge, which BTW was also all across the Caribbean; compare my 2016 graphic in another OP, and ask yourself what has been happening over the past four years. If the UK is now concerned on developments in Barbados tracing to China, and Jamaicans half-joke about 300 years of British colonial rule, 50 years of independence and a Chinese takeover, what should that tell you? Especially as Jamaica is a bottle stopper for the Panama Canal. The implicit suggestion in your remarks, is out of line with all prudence. I am not making predictions, shocking, destructive, chaotic things are already happening with unprecedented declarations from aspirants to power. Wake up! KF

  114. 114
    kairosfocus says:

    I have added the geostrat graphic to OP and two on HCQ

  115. 115
    daveS says:

    KF,

    I am not making predictions, shocking, destructive, chaotic things are already happening with unprecedented declarations from aspirants to power.

    You did make some specific predictions about the outcome of our national election, which I’ll be reviewing in a month or so. I laid out corresponding predictions so we can do a comparison. That’s what I’m looking for. Let’s put your understanding (and mine) to the test.

  116. 116
    JVL says:

    Jerry: Also not one of the critics here has taken on the issue of “Must we all get the virus?”

    I think not. If the death rate is 1% then IF everyone on the planet was exposed we would expect 70 million deaths. If the death rate is 0.1% then 7 million deaths. I think that is too high. And that’s not accounting for the health facilities being swamped with patients and lots of other people dying from things like cancer because they cannot get treatment.

    What is the end game?

    Protect people as much as is feasibly possible (I know, that’s where the disagreements lie) until we have (if we get) a efficacious vaccine.

    Is it a good thing for all young adults and children that they get exposed to the virus? Why and Why not?

    Not: Some will die. Could be someone you know. Do you want to take that risk? AND they might easily pass it on to someone who is much more likely to die. And the more people who get infected the more copies of the virus are in existence which means more and more mutations.

    People say the same things about measles until someone’s child dies because their parents thought it was better to expose them than to not expose them. It’s all fine on paper until it’s your child who dies.

  117. 117
    ET says:

    It’s estimated that 150,000 people die every day. So should we try to stop the days from coming?

    People die. It is what we do. There are literally hundreds to thousands of different ways you can die each and every day. Do we shelter in place because of that fact?

    Adapt or die. COVID-19 is just another thing we have to adapt to. And we can. easily. So I don’t understand the issue.

  118. 118
    ET says:

    Adapt or die. COVID-19 is just another thing we have to adapt to. And we can. easily. So I don’t understand the issue.

    Wearing a mask would be part of adapting. Hospitals and doctors would also be part of adapting. OTC supplementation is another way we can adapt.

    Why are evos such a clueless lot of ignorant haters?

  119. 119
    daveS says:

    KF,

    Wake up!

    I will add that I have contacts in some of the “hot spots” and they too would say your assessment is wildly overstated.

  120. 120
    kairosfocus says:

    DS,

    I know there is an infatuation with Popperian falsificationism but that is not an epistemological panacea. There is a reason why Lakatos spoke of degenerative research programmes and said they are born, live and die refuted, i.e. with unexplained phenomena.

    In that context, we are notreally into predictions yet, we have to get to the point of acknowledging and recognising reality first, in a context where part of the point of a McFaul style dirty form cultural revolution push is it does not LOOK like a warfare move. (You may recall, it took decades for there to be fairly widespread acknowledgement of a civil war in my homeland. The language at the time was about fairly localised political violence and shortages in shops, with mention of brigadistas, CIA dirty tricks and the like. )

    let’s start with the chart in the OP. Do your witnesses know about Mackinder’s Heartland thesis or Spykmann’s rimlands issue with long term conflict between continental and maritime powers? Do they understand that two German pushes to command the Heartland and a Soviet attempt to project from Heartland to global power explain the geostrategic patterns of most of C20? That, with the rise of Islamism and China’s return to being leading industrial power shape and shift the global power conflict? Do they recognise why sub-Saharan Africa is a key resource concentration and why the Caribbean basin is in play also?

    I assume that essentially any aware person recognises that the USA has succeeded retired global power Britain, but faces a strong isolationist mindset that does not recognise that ducking the global stage is not an option. The vultures are circling. And, they are making initial moves. E.g. it is no accident there are over a million Chinese immigrants in Africa. Also, the Islamist leadership have long hoped to make Africa the first Islamic continent. I assume we know heavy money is a weapon, and that ME powers have probably spent in the dozens to couple of hunderd B class on influence and advancing islamist ideology.

    We can take it for granted that the great northern de-Christianisation and demographic collapse are in progress. Such carries with it undermining of the moral buttresses of our civilisation, including the framework of natural law rights, freedoms and responsibilities that, duly balanced, are key buttresses of constitutional democracy. I suspect, many are not aware that the natural condition of the state is subjugation under oligarchy, that lawfiul oligarchy has to be fought for and that constitutional democracy did not become feasible until mid 1600’s to 1700’s. The undermining of buttresses and disintegration of social capital and institutional credibility point to breakdown. Such, as I noted in passing in 2016, has been collapsing at frightening pace.

    It is in that context that we see — note, observe (something you are rhetorically ducking by appeal to popperian falsificationism as though it allows sidestepping understanding and recognising what has been going on) — the dirty form McFaul cultural revolution pattern that fits in with patterns since Mao’s push to grab back power in China in 1966. Let’s refresh and refocus:

    The years since 2000 have seen a surprising new wave of democratic breakthroughs in the postcommunist countries of Serbia, Georgia, and Ukraine. This article compares and contrasts these three cases, naming seven common factors which made the breakthroughs in these countries possible:

    1) a semi-autocratic rather than fully autocratic regime [–> or perception];
    2) an unpopular incumbent [–> alt., media manipulation to demonise and stir critical mass of hostility];
    3) a united and organized opposition [–> so, shadowy, orchestrating networks];
    4) an ability quickly to drive home the point that voting results were falsified [–> i.e. media narrative domination, which can be just as easily used to slander a scapegoat],
    5) enough independent media to inform citizens about the falsified vote [–> too often, this may be the orchestrated media],
    6) a political opposition capable of mobilizing tens of thousands or more demonstrators to protest electoral fraud [–> or, red guards as cannon fodder], and
    7) divisions among the regime’s coercive forces [–> what of, nests of the connected embedded in state, policing and law-making arms].
    [See: Transitions from Post Communism, Journal of Democracy Volume 16, Number 3 July 2005]

    The Egypt case is a fairly close template, with use of real police brutality as a pivot for a power push. One that worked until a military counter push stopped the radicalisation. A key cultural revolution element in the US is CriticalX-Theories used to try to delegitimise Western Civilisation and especially the Christian heritage. Destroying monuments that go far beyond Confederate Generals (thin edge of the wedge) and included church arson, attacks on courts, demands to abolish police, equation of conservativism of the Western inheritance as nazism, turning the workplace into a mini police state etc are all relevant. So are the “mostly peaceful” riots that have led to burning, looting, mayhem and chaos for days, weeks, months in 48 of 50 leading US cities. Then there are lawfare moves and the fact that every close election won by a Republican since 2000 has faced delegitimisation, are signs. The abuse of impeachment and sustained media amplified slander storms with implication of policing and intelligence agencies also speak. And there is more. The push to abolish Electoral College, pack up to 3 -4 more judges in the Supreme Court (already corrupted into a life tenure super legislature), and try to wedge in up to several more states again point. The rise of censorship and attempts to delegitimise self defence are also signs.

    There are more.

    The point is, it is now essentially certain that there will be a chaotic election, with poorly regulated mail-in voting etc. With riots already in progress with clear evidence of red guard agitators, and lawfare on the table, the McFaul playbook becomes a grim prediction, especially if come election night, Mr Trump takes the lead. Which, I expect given that he has become a most unlikely figure championing what is left of our civilisational heritage.

    By Jan 21, one way or another there will be an appointed president. The radicalised will view Mr Trump as a nazi (based on terrible errors and smears), especially if he is to be sworn in. If the other side are in, their radical faction will feel empowered to impose a radical cultural revolution agenda.

    The prospects to Dec 2021 look grim. But by then the strategic decision should be resolved. But, the vultures will have opportunities.

    KF

  121. 121
    daveS says:

    KF,

    especially if come election night, Mr Trump takes the lead. Which, I expect given that he has become a most unlikely figure championing what is left of our civilisational heritage.

    Well, we’ll see. Sounds like a longshot at this point. If that turns out not to be the case, then it will indicate that your understanding of the situation was lacking.

    We don’t have to bring up falsificationism. If you make a bunch of predictions, and they don’t come to pass, then your credibility will take a hit.

    OT: Did you see that one of President John Tyler’s grandsons just passed away? President Tyler was born in 1790 and still has one living grandson.

  122. 122
    kairosfocus says:

    DS, I think you need to start with what is already happening, acknowledging its reality. For instance, do you recognise the McFaul pattern and its relevance to colour revolutions? KF

    PS: If the sort of radical agendas on the loose gain the boost of an electoral victory, then that is a worse scenario.

  123. 123
    kairosfocus says:

    PPS: Cf PPPS to OP, on a comment by a former CEO, Twitter. This is NOT a normal election cycle. (Cf. discussion here.)

  124. 124
    kairosfocus says:

    UPDATE: Mr Trump, scheduled to leave Hospital this evening:

    Donald J. Trump
    @realDonaldTrump
    I will be leaving the great Walter Reed Medical Center today at 6:30 P.M. Feeling really good! Don’t be afraid of Covid. Don’t let it dominate your life. We have developed, under the Trump Administration, some really great drugs & knowledge. I feel better than I did 20 years ago!
    2:37 PM · Oct 5, 2020·Twitter for iPhone

    KF

  125. 125
    daveS says:

    KF,

    I don’t think we need to start at any particular place. Whoever ends up with the best track record likely has a better understanding of what is actually happening. Right? The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

  126. 126
    rhampton7 says:

    From Reason.com

    Hydroxychloroquine Is Conspicuously Absent from Trump’s COVID-19 Treatment Regimen. And that’s good.

    You might wonder why the president’s doctors aren’t treating him with hydroxychloroquine, the compound Trump has been touting as a COVID-19 treatment for months? The answer: lack of evidence from clinical trials that it works.

    A July report of a randomized trial in which patients with early diagnoses of COVID-19 were treated with hydroxychloroquine found that the compound “did not substantially reduce symptom severity in outpatients with early, mild COVID-19.” An August study reporting the results of a multicenter randomized trial using hydroxychloroquine to treat COVID-19 patients concluded that adding the drug “to standard care did not add significant benefit, did not decrease the need for ventilation, and did not reduce mortality rates in COVID-19 patients.” An August 26 systematic meta-analysis of the effect of hydroxychloroquine administered with and without the anti-bacterial azithromycin reported that “hydroxychloroquine alone was not associated with reduced mortality in hospitalized COVID-19 patients but the combination of hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin significantly increased mortality.”

    It is not surprising that the president’s medical team have declined to prescribe hydroxychloroquine as a treatment, since no randomized controlled trials to date have shown any significant benefit to COVID-19 patients with the drug.

    https://reason.com/2020/10/05/hydroxychloroquine-is-conspicuously-absent-from-trumps-covid-19-treatment-regimen/

  127. 127
    rhampton7 says:

    No single strategy or technology is going to rescue society from the pandemic: not masks, not better testing, not a drug, not vaccines. For any of these, it’s easy to get caught up in optimism and hope. But the reality is that fighting the coronavirus requires doing many things correctly.

    That hasn’t stopped people — President Trump among them —— from grasping for single, easy solutions. In March, Trump tweeted that hydroxychloroquine, given with the antibiotic azithromycin, could be “one of the biggest game changers in the history of medicine.” They were not. He said the virus would miraculously disappear with warmer weather. Outbreaks have continued. And lately, he’s been betting on a vaccine, saying it could even come before “a very special date,” meaning Election Day.

    “The entire pandemic has been about magic bullets,” says Ashish K. Jha, dean of the Brown School of Public Health.

    What’s required now to return to a more normal life is the same thing that has been required all along: a series of incremental strategies (pushing testing, requiring masks, developing vaccines and treatments), and clear priorities (do you want to open schools or bars?) driven by an informed public debate about what matters to society.

    As H.L. Mencken famously said, for every complex problem, there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. What’s required here isn’t Rambo-style heroics. It’s clear strategy, and the kind of courage and patience under fire that soldiers in the American Revolution needed when they were told, “Don’t fire until you see the whites of their eyes.”

    https://www.statnews.com/2020/10/05/with-covid19-there-are-no-magic-bullets/

  128. 128
    jerry says:

    since no randomized controlled trials to date have shown any significant benefit to COVID-19 patients with the drug.

    None have been done so how could any show anything.

  129. 129
    kairosfocus says:

    DS, you are clearly missing the point. Again, do you see the McFaul pattern? Can you confirm provenance and date? Do you see why I annotated with a dirty form? Now, have there been cases that compare in say Egypt? What would that suggest? How could it be adapted to say Mao’s circumstances 1966? Now, compare to developments with the US. KF

    PS: Do you understand why, if the US votes power to radicals of the order we are seeing, things are much worse than I think?

  130. 130
    daveS says:

    KF,

    Eh? I thought I was the one making the point. Which is that if your historical analysis leads you to unsound prognostications, perhaps your analysis is faulty. If I turn out to be wrong, then the same applies to me.

  131. 131
    ET says:

    President Trump took hydroxychloroquine back in May. And it is very telling that he did not contract the virus back then. 😛

  132. 132
    rhampton7 says:

    Gilles Roche is not as well known as Didier Raoult. Yet he has a journey very similar to the professor who has hit the headlines since the start of the coronavirus pandemic. Like the Marseille researcher, he is an infectious disease specialist. He even knows Didier Raoult very well for having worked with him during their internship “in Claude-Bernard, in Paris, the Mecca of infectious diseases, now destroyed”. If they are also of the same generation – “He is 68 years old, I am 70”, specifies Gilles Roche in the columns of Midi Libre – the comparison stops there. The Montpellier native does not share the Marseillais’s ideas at all and has decided to break his silence by addressing his colleague in a devastating open letter. Now retired, Gilles Roche explained why he could no longer be silent in an interview for Midi Libre. He, who is familiar with Didier Raoult in his letter, wants to bring the Marseillais down from his pedestal: “The familiarity is important. Raoult is not God the Father. We have to bring it back to what it is: we are both infectious diseases “. From the time they knew each other, he retains the image of a “very capable” boy. What has changed according to him: “But like Doctor Christian Perronne, the only one to support him, he has completely broken off.”

    Gilles Roche has decided to sound the alarm bells because of the multiple statements made by his colleague which, since January, have “turned out to be false”. His letter therefore begins with an advice to the Marseillais: “Didier Raoult, please stop !!! The researcher who “worked for twenty-five years with the pharmaceutical industry” continues by asking “how far will the delirium go? “, While he accuses his colleague of a” fucked up methodology “while accusing him of using” totally inadequate communication channels “.

    Gilles Roche evokes here the “viral videos on social networks” of Didier Raoult, which would have “shamelessly encouraged the lowest conspiracy and populist tendencies, carried by the enthusiasm of the delirious crowds who [him] comforted in [his] idea of ??being some kind of divinity and made [him] blind to reality. “Before concluding his letter by recalling his” background similar to that of Didier Raoult, Gilles Roche assassinates him one last time: “So, out of pity, stop saying all your stupidities which are so damaging to society, to patients, to medicine and science! Let the professionals do their job and stop playing smart ”.

    https://www.voici.fr/news-people/actu-people/didier-raoult-attaque-par-un-ancien-camarade-de-classe-lui-aussi-infectiologue-689236

  133. 133
    rhampton7 says:

    ET

    Trump did not take HCQ in June, July, August, and September

  134. 134
    rhampton7 says:

    KF,
    Rod Dreher has some thoughts on what history should teach us…

    I have mentioned in this space — and I write about inLive Not By Lies— how the Imperial Russian government’s botched handling of the 1891-92 famine was a key turning point in the Russian Revolution of 1917. Why? Because it badly shook the confidence of the Russian people in their government’s competence. Marxist radicals never really got much traction with the broader Russian public until the famine debacle made people wonder if the system really could be counted on to keep them safe. People began to wonder if maybe the radicals were onto something in their critique of the regime. The Tsarist establishment lost a great amount of credibility with the public, and never, of course, got it back.

    Trump’s failures on Covid, epitomized by his own failure to manage his exposure with regard to White House staffers and supporters, come at a time of historic loss of public faith in institutions. As Brooks writes in his detailed essay, we are living in an era of great insecurity because of this loss of trust — and Millennials and Generation Z are the most dramatically affected by it. Again, I’m going to explore this in a separate post, but the things Brooks talks about regarding the fear, anxiety, and eagerness for protection running rampant among Millennials and Gen Z are exactly the things that Hannah Arendt observed as present in pre-totalitarian Russia and Germany.

    What Trump has done with his own Covid diagnosis is a monumental act of self-sabotage. What he is helping to sabotage is more than his own administration and re-election campaign, I fear.

    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/

  135. 135
    RHolt says:

    ET@131″ it is very telling that he did not contract the virus back then.”

    Yes, it tells us that he had no contact with the sars-cov-2 virus. HCQ an CQ fail to prevent infection with covid in vitro (using human lung cell lines and modified VERO cell lines). Why would you think it has any efficacy in vivo given that this mechanistic study demonstrates the once-thought-plausable mechanism of action for HCQ and CQ is unavailable in human lung and airway cells?

    Here is the take away line from the study:

    These results indicate that chloroquine targets a pathway for viral activation that is not active in lung cells and is unlikely to protect against the spread of SARS-CoV-2 in and between patients.

    Chloroquine does not inhibit infection of human lung cells with SARS-CoV-2
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2575-3

  136. 136
    ET says:

    RHolt:

    Yes, it tells us that he had no contact with the sars-cov-2 virus.

    It might tell you that. He was taking it with zinc. And the science supports the efficacy of using both.

    HCQ affects the pH levels. That, in turn, has an effect on the ACE2 receptors. It is also an ionophore. This allows for more zinc to be absorbed by cells. Zinc is known to prevent the virus from replicating.

    And it is very telling that no one has been able to collect the $200,000 from Dr. Zelenko.

  137. 137
    ET says:

    RH7:

    Trump did not take HCQ in June, July, August, and September.

    By then alternative treatments were available

  138. 138
    kairosfocus says:

    I find it amusing how our objectors studiously refuse to face the Dr “Been” mechanisms. That tells me something. KF

  139. 139
    RHolt says:

    ET@136 “HCQ affects the pH levels.”

    lysosomal pH, yes. And as your reference that you previously posted it takes a long time to do that and have any effect on biochemical processes.

    ET@136 “That, in turn, has an effect on the ACE2 receptors”

    No, it doesn’t. Feel free to elucidate the biochemical pathway that you believe causes this change. As much detail as possible, i.e. enzymes involved, supporting data demonstrating this mechanism, and of course some references that this pathway is present in human lung and airway cells.

    ET @ 136. “This allows for more zinc to be absorbed by cells.”

    Eucaryotic cells have lots of zinc in them. From all appearances this virus replicates just fine.

    KF @ 138 I’ve been at sea and out of contact with the real world until a few days ago. You’ll have to explain to me what Dr. “Been mechanisms’ are. Have you accepted the research results that demonstrate the proposed biochemical pathway that HCQ and CQ are hypothesized to work by don’t exist in human lung cells?

  140. 140
    kairosfocus says:

    RH, scroll up to OP. Zn ionophore is not a biochem pathway but ion transport, and weak base frustrates paths. You will find MedCram interesting. KF

  141. 141
    kairosfocus says:

    UPDATE: US President Trump speaks on arrival back at the White House: https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1313267615083761665 He suggests medicines are to be approved shortly and vaccines. I of course have doubts on vaccines for corona viruses. KF

    PS: I found some remarks by Mr Stelter of CNN:

    It’s not a real show of strength but it’s a performative show of strength, this is what strong men do in autocratic regimes. Thankfully we’re in a democracy, but this is what you see from strong men who want to appear to be leading, it’s Dear Leader sort of approach. That’s what we are seeing on the television screens . . . Meanwhile, there are big questions about the coverup. Why won’t they tell about his testing history, when he was tested. We moved from possibly being a coverup to actually being a coverup. Whether the President’s at Walter Reed or back at the White House, reporters will keep demanding answers to those questions.

    The best I can suggest is to use the mirror principle that out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks and projects to others. The slanderous suggestions of dictatorship, corruption etc with little or no basis tell us volumes on what lurks in the hearts behind such words. Clearly, this is not a normal election and something has gone very dark among the progressivists. Also, has he forgotten that medical records and history are not open information, nor should a precedent be set on that.

  142. 142
    RHolt says:

    KF @ 140 What is the IC50 or EC50 for zinc and viral replication inhibition?
    I didn’t find medcram all that impressive or informative when I looked at it prior to my taking a break from civilization the last weeks. If there is something stunning or revolutionary that you think should be viewed on medcram post the episode # and why you think it pertinent. When I get the time I’ll give it a look if it sounds interesting.

  143. 143
    RHolt says:

    KF @ 141. “The best I can suggest is to use the mirror principle that out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks and projects to others.”

    There is no question that the WH has surpassed information on the presidents health and covid infection. Not providing the date of his last negative test and first positive test is telling. initially refusing to answer if he had even been administered any oxygen at any time is also telling. Not providing info on the results of his lung scans is also a very large red flag. Administration of dexamethasone is consistent with his having severe covid as well as his blood-oxygen sats going below 94% are characteristic of severe covid. It will come out eventually that Trump has covid pneumonia and this is the reason for his steroid treatment and also why they won’t divulge the scan results. You know if the scans were clear he would be crowing from the rooftops about how he came through the infection unscathed.

    The display of bravado he is projecting is certainly, in part (likely large), characteristics of the effects of steroids. Looking at him tonight when he took his mask off (irresponsible behavior and putting others at risk aside) you could see his breathing is labored. Once it all comes out it will erode his credibility further….not that he has such left in any case. Only 26% of those polled trust him for info on covid and the recent Stanford article highlights him being a major source of misinformation in the ‘infodemic’ realm.

  144. 144
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: MSNBC speaks of Mr Trump saluting Marine One, as “a Mussolini moment.” Read the projection back to the source. This sort of language is beyond the pale. This is not a normal election, we are looking at outright agit prop, some of it outright crude; an appeal to people induced into polarised hysteria. KF

  145. 145
    kairosfocus says:

    RH, enough was given to trace a reasonable timeline and infer any reasonable need to know. There is no right to detailed medical records. I find it astonishing that I am forced to say, the sort of speech I have noted is way too far, on a figure I do not particularly find attractive. I have seen the sort of over-wrought hysterical language and angry demonising projection before, it is a feature of an ideological war. KF

  146. 146
    Mac McTavish says:

    KF

    This sort of language is beyond the pale. This is not a normal election, we are looking at outright agit prop, some of it outright crude; an appeal to people induced into polarised hysteria.

    I agree that the Mussolini comment was uncalled for, but I find it extremely hypocritical that you repeatedly criticize the media’s behavior on their coverage of Trump, but never criticize Trump on his agit prop, polarizing and outright crude behavior. You are guilty of the same thing you are accusing the media of.

  147. 147
    Mac McTavish says:

    KF

    I have seen the sort of over-wrought hysterical language and angry demonising projection before, it is a feature of an ideological war.

    Mexicans are murderers and rapists. Muslims are terrorists. Refugees will destroy your way of life. Affordable housing will destroy the suburbs. And so on. Trump is an expert at over-wrought hysterical language and angry demonising projection. A president is supposed to represent everyone’s interests, even those who didn’t vote for him. Especially those who didn’t vote for him.

  148. 148
    ET says:

    RHolt- We have already played this game with respect to pH levels and the effect it has on ACE2 receptors. You lost.

    More zinc is better- that is more zinc than the existing zinc transport system affords. That is what an ionophore allows.

  149. 149
    ET says:

    I love Mac’s bald accusations of the President. Just because you don’t like what he has to say doesn’t make it “agit prop, polarizing and outright crude behavior”. Putting words in his mouth just exposes your desperation.

  150. 150
    Mac McTavish says:

    ET

    Just because you don’t like what he has to say doesn’t make it “agit prop, polarizing and outright crude behavior”

    Given your history of commenting here you will forgive me if I question your ability to know what constitutes crude behavior.

  151. 151
    ET says:

    LoL! @ Mac and cheese- My comments here are dependent on the the lies, misconceptions and misrepresentations that I am responding to.

    Given your history of commenting here you will forgive me if I question your honesty and integrity.

  152. 152
    RHolt says:

    KF @15 “enough was given to trace a reasonable timeline and infer any reasonable need to know.”

    Not even close. For example the info on his last negative test is crucial for tracking and tracing to make all those with potential exposure to the virus, via Trump, aware of their possibly being infected. Withholding this information places all of them, their families, and social contacts at risk of continued spread of the virus. It is irresponsible to withhold such information. Then there is the question that has now arisen is that Trump and his entourage arrived at the debate too late to be tested. Instead all present were required to ‘trust’ Trump and his entourage that they were negative. Give how sick he became between Thursday and Friday it is quite plausible that he was positive at the Tuesday debate. Totally irresponsible for the leader of the free world to pull such stunts.

    Trump also wishes to be reelected. The people of this country deserve to know if their leader is healthy enough to deal with the rigors of the office. It is quite possible Trump could become a covid long-hauler which has immediate ramifications on his fitness for the office. The purposeful withholding of information and misleading information is completely unacceptable given what we know of how covid is spread and its potential impact on the human body. It is an indefensible position and the polling demonstrates that a majority of the populous feel this way as well.

  153. 153
    RHolt says:

    ET @ 148 “We have already played this game with respect to pH levels and the effect it has on ACE2 receptors. You lost.”

    So while I post references supporting the position that HCQ has no effect on ACE2 receptor and covid infection all we get from you is all bluster and no data. Not surprising, though.

    ET @ 148 “More zinc is better”

    Is it? How much more is ‘better’ or even ‘best’? If you can’t put a number to the IC50 or EC50 for zinc and viral replication why should I, or anyone, believe your bald assertions?

  154. 154
    Mac McTavish says:

    RHolt

    If you can’t put a number to the IC50 or EC50 for zinc and viral replication why should I, or anyone, believe your bald assertions?

    I will take that as a rhetorical question. 🙂

  155. 155
    kairosfocus says:

    MMT,

    while I will not be drawn into a crocodile death roll on details, I will first note that in my observation, due to the sort of two-minute hate hostility group-think pattern, it is fair comment that many things Mr Trump has said have been snatched out of context, twisted into accusations and worse.

    Three cases that spring to mind include the Charlottesville “fine people” comment (he explicitly excluded the neo nazis etc), the mexican criminality (he spoke specifically to well, criminals . . . Mexico is of course convulsed in in effect a civil war with narco terrorism), and the disinfectant (he spoke of UV light therapy not abuse of Sodium hypochlorite 5.25% or 8+% solution).

    That said, it is fairly obvious from your exaggerated dismissal that you have similarly failed to notice what I have in fact been significantly critical of Mr Trump, who is not a particularly nice figure. What do you think “NY Contractor in Chief” implies? Four years ago, I had to withdraw a double dis-endorsement as that was in an imprudent grey area. I have regarded him as needlessly abrasive and often boorish. I have called him a most unlikely champion of our civilisation, noting that he (as was so of a far more likeable personality who was harshly targetted, Reagan) is a displaced Democrat.

    A comparison is Churchill, someone the UK people never awarded an election victory until 1950 or thereabouts.

    That said, the root challenge is not a personality or likeability in general, the hinterland people of the US have rejected their coastal elites and have put in place an outsider champion because, for cause, they see that progressivist elite as on the wrong track and needing to be taught a harsh corrective lesson. That lesson is not finished and the sort of routine projection of slanderous groupthink we are seeing is part of how we know that. Mr Trump is likely to be re-elected and to win back the Representatives chamber, retaining the Senate. If he doesn’t, esp in an atmosphere of post election chaos and lawfare, multiplied by the already declared radical agendas and clear policy intent on the table, the situation will rapidly get even worse. Court packing to protect holocaust of the unborn and to remove right and means of self defence in the face of the mob, cover up of clear deep state abuses and more will not be taken quietly by the people of the hinterland. The attempt to destabilise constitutional safeguards such as the Electoral College and to bring in new states on a partisan agenda will be taken very badly indeed, were the radicals to come to power through the upcoming election. And mischaracterising the hinterland as nazis etc will not sit well.

    I have noted, 4th Gen civil war is already in progress and will peak in coming months. Needless, bad geostrategic consequences will follow. The Cultural Marxism influenced, evolutionary materialistic scientism-dominated, morally bankrupt coastal progressivist elites have much to answer for, starting with the courts, the academic and educational elites and the major media houses and voices, as well as entrenched deep state apparatchiks.

    The red guards in the streets are cannon fodder, manipulated by an ecosystem of radical Alinsky community organiser front groups, backed by a network of powerful financiers and strategists in the shadows. I have repeatedly, for cause, pointed to the McFaul pattern for colour revolutions through 4GW operations.

    KF

  156. 156
    kairosfocus says:

    RHolt, do you not see that the public and the hostile, slanderous media who just twisted a salute of respect to the crew of Marine One into a “Mussolini moment” are not the ones who will carry out/have been carrying out contact tracing etc? Again, medical confidentiality is involved, just as it was a few decades ago when the issue was being protective regarding HIV status and averting “stigma.” The same principle obtains. I also suspect on a related point that Mr Trump faces regular testing for infection, etc.and note that you are commenting adversely on want of evidence, suggesting reckless behaviour on speculation. I trust that these remarks are enough to point you in the right direction. KF

    PS: I would join Jerry in pointing you to Medcram and similar sources. They have carried on a running tutorial on CV19, and I suspect that has been helpful.

  157. 157
    kairosfocus says:

    DEVELOPING: An international group of epidemiology professionals has issued The Great Barrington Declaration regarding an advisable shift to focused protection. Tweet:

    https://twitter.com/MartinKulldorff/status/1313096570590638081

    Martin Kulldorff
    @MartinKulldorff
    ·
    20h
    The Great Barrington Declaration argues that #COVID19 #lockdowns should be replaced with Focused Protection. Please sign.
    https://gbdeclaration.org #GBdeclaration

    KF

  158. 158
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: The declaration:

    The Great Barrington Declaration

    As infectious disease epidemiologists and public health scientists we have grave concerns about the damaging physical and mental health impacts of the prevailing COVID-19 policies, and recommend an approach we call Focused Protection.

    Coming from both the left and right, and around the world, we have devoted our careers to protecting people. Current lockdown policies are producing devastating effects on short and long-term public health. The results (to name a few) include lower childhood vaccination rates, worsening cardiovascular disease outcomes, fewer cancer screenings and deteriorating mental health – leading to greater excess mortality in years to come, with the working class and younger members of society carrying the heaviest burden. Keeping students out of school is a grave injustice.

    Keeping these measures in place until a vaccine is available will cause irreparable damage, with the underprivileged disproportionately harmed.

    Fortunately, our understanding of the virus is growing. We know that vulnerability to death from COVID-19 is more than a thousand-fold higher in the old and infirm than the young. Indeed, for children, COVID-19 is less dangerous than many other harms, including influenza.

    As immunity builds in the population, the risk of infection to all – including the vulnerable – falls. We know that all populations will eventually reach herd immunity – i.e. the point at which the rate of new infections is stable – and that this can be assisted by (but is not dependent upon) a vaccine. Our goal should therefore be to minimize mortality and social harm until we reach herd immunity.

    The most compassionate approach that balances the risks and benefits of reaching herd immunity, is to allow those who are at minimal risk of death to live their lives normally to build up immunity to the virus through natural infection, while better protecting those who are at highest risk. We call this Focused Protection.

    Adopting measures to protect the vulnerable should be the central aim of public health responses to COVID-19. By way of example, nursing homes should use staff with acquired immunity and perform frequent PCR testing of other staff and all visitors. Staff rotation should be minimized. Retired people living at home should have groceries and other essentials delivered to their home. When possible, they should meet family members outside rather than inside. A comprehensive and detailed list of measures, including approaches to multi-generational households, can be implemented, and is well within the scope and capability of public health professionals.

    Those who are not vulnerable should immediately be allowed to resume life as normal. Simple hygiene measures, such as hand washing and staying home when sick should be practiced by everyone to reduce the herd immunity threshold. Schools and universities should be open for in-person teaching. Extracurricular activities, such as sports, should be resumed. Young low-risk adults should work normally, rather than from home. Restaurants and other businesses should open. Arts, music, sport and other cultural activities should resume. People who are more at risk may participate if they wish, while society as a whole enjoys the protection conferred upon the vulnerable by those who have built up herd immunity.

    On October 4, 2020, this declaration was authored and signed in Great Barrington, United States, by:

    Dr. Martin Kulldorff, professor of medicine at Harvard University, a biostatistician, and epidemiologist with expertise in detecting and monitoring of infectious disease outbreaks and vaccine safety evaluations.

    Dr. Sunetra Gupta, professor at Oxford University, an epidemiologist with expertise in immunology, vaccine development, and mathematical modeling of infectious diseases.

    Dr. Jay Bhattacharya, professor at Stanford University Medical School, a physician, epidemiologist, health economist, and public health policy expert focusing on infectious diseases and vulnerable populations.

    It seems to me we need to at least consider these issues.

    KF

  159. 159
    kairosfocus says:

    DEVELOPING: Lack of security of mailboxes was just underscored in Virginia, USA, further highlighting dangers of chaos:

    https://www.henricocitizen.com/articles/usps-collection-boxes-at-3-henrico-post-offices-broken-into/

    United States Post Service officials are investigating after outdoor mail collection boxes at six post offices in the Richmond region – including three in Henrico and one near the Henrico-Richmond border – were broken into sometime between Saturday afternoon and this morning.

    The blue metal collection boxes at the Glen Allen (Innsbrook); Lakeside; and Regency locations in Henrico and the Westhampton location near Willow Lawn, just across the county line in Richmond, were tampered with and pried open, according to United States Postal Inspector Michael Romano. Officials don’t know how much mail might have been taken from the various locations.

    Postal Service officials began receiving calls from the post office employees this morning at about 7 a.m., Romano said.

    At the Innsbrook site, officials quickly placed crime tape around the boxes and USPS plastic boxes over the deposit areas while awaiting repairs that Romano said should be completed today.

    “Obviously it’s a concern, it’s a concern for us that we’ve got the mailboxes being tampered with,” he said. “It appears in all the cases that the door latch was pried using some sort of tool of force.”

    Romano said it was too early to determine whether one person or a coordinated group of people were responsible for all six incidents or whether tampering with ballots from next month’s election was the motivation.

    In a related set of developments:

    The Supreme Court just handed Republicans and the voters of South Carolina a huge victory for election integrity!

    Democrats had sued the state to strip away an important safeguard for absentee voting, but the Court ruled against them with no Justices issuing dissents. (1/3)
    — Ronna McDaniel (@GOPChairwoman) October 6, 2020

    This win follows Republicans’ victory in the lower courts, where Democrats’ lost in their attempts to extend the state’s Election Day delivery deadline and eliminate the state’s ban on ballot harvesting. (2/3)
    — Ronna McDaniel (@GOPChairwoman) October 6, 2020

    This is the SIXTH win for Republicans in roughly the last week following major victories in Iowa, Ohio, Maine, New Hampshire and Arizona.

    The RNC will not stop fighting to https://t.co/tidEkbV9KS (3/3)
    — Ronna McDaniel (@GOPChairwoman) October 6, 2020

    KF

  160. 160
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: as with icebergs, it’s the hidden part of the revolutionary insurgency that gets ya https://uncommondescent.com/control-and-anarchy/culture-revolution-insurgency-escalator/ KF

  161. 161
    daveS says:

    KF,

    RHolt, do you not see that the public and the hostile, slanderous media who just twisted a salute of respect to the crew of Marine One into a “Mussolini moment” are not the ones who will carry out/have been carrying out contact tracing etc?

    *light coughing in the background*

  162. 162
    kairosfocus says:

    DS, c’mon, mon. It is patently medical professionals acting under medical confidentiality who have carried out the contact tracing we see the results of in the identification of a cluster. Recall, it didn’t start with Mr Trump, who was awaiting results when Hope Hicks was the spotlight. Why is it we can talk about protecting privacy of HIV positive people, avoiding stigma etc then swivel around and try to demand breach of same now. That’s a signature. KF

  163. 163
    daveS says:

    KF,

    I’m not sure it’s clear whether Hope Hicks caught it first or not. We’re being encouraged to believe so, certainly. In any case, the president is expected to be forthcoming on matters such as this. That’s part of the deal.

    My post was more about mocking Trump’s “Covita” balcony scene. We make fun of other countries when their maximum leaders behave like this, so it’s somewhat embarrassing to see it happening on American soil.

  164. 164
    RHolt says:

    DaveS @ 161 “*light coughing in the background*”

    Indeed! KF studiously ignored the gaggle of aides waiting at the open doorway for the unmasked Trump to finish his hot-op moment. Then the unmasked Trump strides through the doorway after motioning the photographer to get closer to him. After entering the WH (unmasked no helicopter inside the WH) Trump then goes back outside and renters the WH (still unmasked) for additional photographs. No respect whatsoever for the health and safety of the WH aides and staff as the infectious Trump walks through them unmasked. Hopefully, this will be the wake up call KF needs to see things as they re instead of how he wishes them to be.

    On the issue of track and tracing the WH is abhorrently refusing to do any track and tracing for the super-spreader Supreme Court nominee event. Acting to subvert and impede track and tracing is completely irresponsible and indefensible. KF brings up HIV status and privacy issues. He seems to forget that it is also a criminal act to NOT reveal ones HIV status to a sexual partner. Using KF’s logic this HIV positive individuals should be able to conceal their status from everyone after all medical confidentiality issues are the only thing that should be considered. Forget track and tracing its nobodies business but your own if you have an infectious disease. There is no need to cooperate with track and tracing efforts as exemplified by the current USA administration. Track and tracing should be eliminated to prevent ‘stigma’ from being attachedGreat example for others to follow…NOT!

    Using KF’s logic Typhoid Mary should have never been confined and quarantined as it unfairly attached a ‘sigma’ to her. Nevermind the disease she actively spread to the unaware innocents she came in contact with despite warnings to the contrary.

    Track and tracing with the current covid virus’s ever expanding reach into the US populous should not be attempted due to potential ‘stigma’ being attached to the individuals. Non-cooperation should be advocated for at every step as exemplified by Trump and his administrations. All efforts to track and trace infectious disease are, evidently, misguided, as KF’s protectionist stance of the current US administration suggests, and all such efforts should be aborted immediately.

    Hopefully KF will be able to see the the folly of his stance and protectionism of a irresponsible US leader……but I doubt it will penetrate the fog of denial that appears to be growing ever thicker with each post.

  165. 165
    ET says:

    Earth to RHolt- I posted the references for HCQ and ACE2 receptors. I also posted the MedCram video and other papers for zinc preventing the virus from replicating. Your ignorance is not an argument.

  166. 166
  167. 167
    RHolt says:

    DaveS @ 163. ‘I’m not sure whether it’s clear whether Hope Hicks caught it first”

    Indeed it is not clear at all. Hope Hicks was not at the super-spreader Rose garden event where so many got infected. The little track and tracing that has been done with the Rose garden event suggests that Trump is the source of the suer spreader even. Where and when he got infected remains unknown.

    Rather then utilize known and recognized safety measures the Trump administration falsely believed that rapid testing regime would protect the WH and all who work there. They felt no need (and still don’t) to implement other measures. IN fact Trump actively ridiculed those who wore masks attaching a ‘stigma’ to them via peer pressure tactics. The rapid testing system the administration has grown to depend on has a false negative rate of 33-45% depending if transfer media is used in the collection process (33% false negative) or if the swab is dry (45% false negative). The entire world can see how well this strategy has worked out.

  168. 168
    ET says:

    What a bunch of whining losers. COVID-19 affects the unhealthy, ie the people with poor nutrition. The people who are dying are deficient in the nutrition department. The entire world should take that as a wake-up call. But they won’t. They will just try to blame someone else.

    Super spreader events? Like all the “protests”, looting and rioting? Or the hundred of thousands of bikers who descended on South Dakota? Trumps rallies pale in comparison to those.

  169. 169
    RHolt says:

    ET @ 165 ‘I posted the references for HCQ and ACE2 receptors.’

    All hypothetical constructs no actual data documenting HCQ influence on ACE2 receptors. However, we have numerous other references documenting that the pathway you are proposing does not exist in human lung and airway tissue and that HCQ has no effect on covid infection in human lung and airway tissue.

    Noted that you still are unable to provide an IC50 or EC50 for zinc and viral replication inhibition.

  170. 170
    kairosfocus says:

    DS, do I need to raise the issue of projection, given the sort of ugly media commentary we have seen? This has now become a case of breakdown of civil peace and rise of ugly polarisation and outright accusation on the slightest chance. (That tells us about mindset, through the mirror principle.) In such a situation anything you say or do can and will be used to accuse you. That is intended to create polarisation and a bunker mentality. In such a situation, terse, summary information and symbolic acts will go to the fore. The terse remarks will provide necessary information and the symbolic acts, morale support. Indeed, hostility to that seems to be a factor in the accusations against a car ride. The outbreak is clearly being traced and contained. One is referred to the tweets in the OP. The president has clearly made a rapid recovery, which is a stabilising factor. KF

    PS: Your attention is drawn to the new OP on the insurgency escalator.

  171. 171
    kairosfocus says:

    RH: I think you need to rebalance:

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21079686/

    PLoS Pathog

    . 2010 Nov 4;6(11):e1001176.
    doi: 10.1371/journal.ppat.1001176.
    Zn(2+) inhibits coronavirus and arterivirus RNA polymerase activity in vitro and zinc ionophores block the replication of these viruses in cell culture
    Aartjan J W te Velthuis 1 , Sjoerd H E van den Worm, Amy C Sims, Ralph S Baric, Eric J Snijder, Martijn J van Hemert
    Affiliations

    PMID: 21079686 PMCID: PMC2973827 DOI: 10.1371/journal.ppat.1001176

    Free PMC article
    Abstract

    Increasing the intracellular Zn(2+) concentration with zinc-ionophores like pyrithione (PT) can efficiently impair the replication of a variety of RNA viruses, including poliovirus and influenza virus. For some viruses this effect has been attributed to interference with viral polyprotein processing. In this study we demonstrate that the combination of Zn(2+) and PT at low concentrations (2 µM Zn(2+) and 2 µM PT) inhibits the replication of SARS-coronavirus (SARS-CoV) and equine arteritis virus (EAV) in cell culture. The RNA synthesis of these two distantly related nidoviruses is catalyzed by an RNA-dependent RNA polymerase (RdRp), which is the core enzyme of their multiprotein replication and transcription complex (RTC). Using an activity assay for RTCs isolated from cells infected with SARS-CoV or EAV–thus eliminating the need for PT to transport Zn(2+) across the plasma membrane–we show that Zn(2+) efficiently inhibits the RNA-synthesizing activity of the RTCs of both viruses. Enzymatic studies using recombinant RdRps (SARS-CoV nsp12 and EAV nsp9) purified from E. coli subsequently revealed that Zn(2+) directly inhibited the in vitro activity of both nidovirus polymerases. More specifically, Zn(2+) was found to block the initiation step of EAV RNA synthesis, whereas in the case of the SARS-CoV RdRp elongation was inhibited and template binding reduced. By chelating Zn(2+) with MgEDTA, the inhibitory effect of the divalent cation could be reversed, which provides a novel experimental tool for in vitro studies of the molecular details of nidovirus replication and transcription.

    KF

  172. 172
    RHolt says:

    KF @170 ‘The outbreak is clearly being traced and contained.’

    This is false, KF. The WH has announced that it is NOT making any effort to track and trace the Rose garden event. Who should we believe…you or the WH announcement?

    KF @ 170 ‘The president has clearly made a rapid recovery, which is a stabilising factor.’

    Hopefully this is the case. However, he is heavily under the influence of a powerful steroid and all its side effects. Even his doctors acknowledge that the next week is critical and there is the very real possibility of remission in his recovery progress. His labored breathing at his photo demonstrates that all is not well with his lungs. then we have the lack of candor about what his lung scans revealed. His apparent rapid decline over a period of less than 24 hrs. Was he positive at Tuesday’s debate and this being the reason he arrived too late to be tested. Quite possible and the obfuscation and outright refusal to release the date of his last negative test does nothing to allay these concerns.

  173. 173
    RHolt says:

    Kf @ 171 see RHolt @ 169

  174. 174
    john_a_designer says:

    Kf @ 162,

    Why is it we can talk about protecting privacy of HIV positive people, avoiding stigma etc then swivel around and try to demand breach of same now.

    It’s just another clear case of a hypocritical double standard.

  175. 175
    ET says:

    RHolt:

    All hypothetical constructs no actual data documenting HCQ influence on ACE2 receptors.

    Wrong again. Your willful ignorance is not an argument. Good luck with that, though.

  176. 176
    ET says:

    Dr. Zelenko’s $200,000 challenge is still on the table. It is very telling that RHolt doesn’t accept it.

  177. 177
    JVL says:

    Kairosfocus: A comparison is Churchill, someone the UK people never awarded an election victory until 1950 or thereabouts.

    I read that and thought: surely that can’t be right but it is! He didn’t actually win a general election as the leader of his party ’til 1951! And he was actually only Prime Minister for about eight years total.

  178. 178
    daveS says:

    KF,

    DS, do I need to raise the issue of projection, given the sort of ugly media commentary we have seen?

    No, because it’s not a significant factor here.

    In such a situation anything you say or do can and will be used to accuse you.

    There is a grain of truth to this. Trump’s credibility is literally nil at this point, so it’s actually surprising when he behaves like a 74-year-old man presiding over a world power. People are so used to his antics that they sometimes jump to the wrong conclusion, leading to false accusations.

  179. 179
    kairosfocus says:

    DS:

    Trump’s credibility is literally nil at this point

    Symptomatic.

    4GW polarisation operations as a component of the insurgency escalator are successful with a key bloc.

    QED

    KF

  180. 180
    daveS says:

    KF,

    Heh. So when you said Seversky’s credibility was nil, I can reply likewise:

    Symptomatic.

    4GW polarisation operations as a component of the insurgency escalator are successful with a key bloc.

    QED

  181. 181
    kairosfocus says:

    DS, Seversky earned that rating, one step and day at a time here over years. He has not been targetted by an attack media for years on end. Your turnabout projection fails. KF

  182. 182
    daveS says:

    KF,

    The right wing attack media, which you rely on for information about the US, has indeed been targeting positions held by Seversky for decades. 🤷

  183. 183
    kairosfocus says:

    DS, I am not relying on media, save to clip key facts. What is driving me is the weight of far too much grim, bloody history. Kindly, tell me what Sunday morning talk shows are hosting Mackinder’s ghost or Spykmann’s. I might be inclined to listen. A good bit of that history, as you know, comes from personal observation. I have seen 4gw marxist insurgency up close and personal. I know people still living in denial. And what is more you know that the marginalised are worlds apart from the lockstep mainstream equivalents of TASS, Pravda, Izvestia etc. KF

  184. 184
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL, Churchill was a great but deeply flawed man. The common people and political classes remembered his domination of the Admiralty in early days of WW1, leading to fiasco at the Dardanelles. Though, much of that was operational failure that missed key opportunities. Success would have been transformative. Then, he tried to restore the pound to gold standard at par in the 20’s and was involved in the 26 general strike. He was at literally suicidal nadir in the 30’s, but was right on Hitler. He fell in with Lindemann (a physicist, I have a rarity, a textbook by him). The Government fell on winning the Norway debate on adjournment but at cost of its credit. Halifax lost and Churchill went to see the king. Just in time for Guderian’s panzers to roll on May 10, 1940. His special advisers I think made a key difference (though they made big mistakes too, e.g. the Indian famine) accounting for difference from WW1 performance and Hitler’s performance. In 1945 he was voted out in favour of Attlee. I forgot the precise year but it was about 1950 that he actually won an outright election to the premiership. By then, he was a nearly spent force with about 15 more years on the clock. Altogether, the greatest Britisher for centuries, and a Nobel Prize winning writer. A half American, too. Wilhelm II of Germany’s Mother was English, Victoria’s first daughter IIRC. Churchill held the line for “Christian Civilisation” in the dark summer of 1940. KF

  185. 185
    Mac McTavish says:

    KF, you repeatedly blame the media for creating polarization. And, I agree, that they are not helping the issue. But when you have a world leader who has been caught in thousands of easily confirmed lies, how do you expect the media to deal with it? Should they just politely accept his claims? Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me a thousand times…

  186. 186
    kairosfocus says:

    UPDATE: WH Press Secretary releases a letter from physician with President’s permission: https://twitter.com/PressSec/status/1313522747432148993?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw Progress is good, Oxygen is 96%, he reports no symptoms (strictly, such are reported by patients), and “continues to do extremely well.” Good for stability. His Secretary of course is one of the cluster. KF

  187. 187
    kairosfocus says:

    MMT, in recent decades, the US progressivists have become ever more radical, polarising US politics through breakdown of consensus on core values and understanding/principles. Many institutions including major media, academia and education are part of this. The rise of Cultural Marxist Critical X-Theories across a wide range is implicated. Currently we can see a rise on the insurgency escalator, matching McFaul playbook conditions; indicating low kinetic phase 4th gen civil war. That this has long been on the cards can be seen from the remark clipped earlier today. In that context media Quislings are of course trumpeting the red guard narrative. KF

  188. 188
    rhampton7 says:

    On Monday, the talk show host and “PragerU” founder Dennis Prager blamed the “communists running medicine” for suppressing discussion about hydroxychloroquine, but questioned why it hadn’t come up in Trump’s treatment plan.

    “They didn’t discuss it ‘yea’ or ‘nay’ with regard to the President,” he said. “The President was the one who recommended it to begin with. You’d think something would have been said. Isn’t that the obvious question everybody would have?”

    Prager has claimed to be taking hydroxychloroquine as a prophylactic for months. “It’s unconscionable, the hysteria with regard to it,” he said in August, adding that there was “blood on the hands” of doctors and journalists who kept COVID-19 patients from taking the drug.

    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/hydroxychloroquine-advocates-are-pissed-trumps-not-taking-it-for-covid

  189. 189
    jerry says:

    But when you have a world leader who has been caught in thousands of easily confirmed lies, how do you expect the media to deal with it?

    Why don’t you list the biggest lies and their consequences? That way we will know what is bothering you and then we can find out why it is not bothering others.

    Please don’t say there are so many because that just means there are none of consequence.

  190. 190
    jerry says:

    Prager has claimed to be taking hydroxychloroquine as a prophylactic for months.

    I know others who are also doing so. In some states doctors will prescribe it as an prophylactic while in others you must have symptoms and in some they make it extremely difficult even if you test positive.

  191. 191
    Mac McTavish says:

    KF

    MMT, in recent decades, the US progressivists have become ever more radical, polarising US politics through breakdown of consensus on core values and understanding/principles.

    Who determines what these core values are? At one time the consensus on core values was that a woman’s place was in the home. That she should obey her husband. That she should be paid less for the same job because a man in the same position had to support a family. That a husband was entitled to physically “correct” his wife. That a 13 year old rape victim must be forced to continue with the pregnancy. That homosexuals should be jailed or forced into conversion therapy. That we shouldn’t be allowed to marry the person we love because they are of the same gender. That we should be denied employment because we happen to be gay.

  192. 192
    daveS says:

    Jerry,

    Why don’t you list the biggest lies and their consequences?

    I thought not lying was a moral imperative?

  193. 193
    JVL says:

    Coins commemorating President Donald Trump surviving COVID-19 are already available for preorder at an online gift shop.

    The $100 “Trump defeats COVID” coins are for sale on the website of the White House Gift Shop, which is not affiliated with the White House.

    https://eu.usatoday.com/story/money/2020/10/05/trump-defeats-covid-commemorative-coins-on-sale-gift-shop/3628383001/

    And

    https://www.whitehousegiftshop.com/product-p/trump-defeats-covid.htm

  194. 194
    daveS says:

    The $100 “Trump defeats COVID” coins are for sale on the website of the White House Gift Shop, which is not affiliated with the White House.

    lol.

    Or, just three easy payments of $39.99. Perfect for display in your home or trailer.

  195. 195
    kairosfocus says:

    MMT,

    that you profess dubiousness and revert to relativistic power games as to WHO determines are already pretty good confirmation of my basic point about the attempted cultural revolution. However, history is a little hard to change when it’s in something as pivotal and transformational as the US Doi, 1776:

    When . . . it becomes necessary for one people . . . to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, [cf Rom 1:18 – 21, 2:14 – 15 . . . yes, that is context of the Christian synthesis of the heritage of Jerusalem, Athens and Rome], that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. –That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . . .

    We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions [Cf. Judges 11:27 and related discussion in Locke], do, in the Name, and by the Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

    A directly ancestral document from the Dutch Republic — Jefferson and Adams made direct reference to the Dutch as an exemplar and the chain of ideas is plain — from 1581 under William the silent of Orange gives key background:

    . . . a prince is constituted by God to be ruler of a people, to defend them from oppression and violence as the shepherd his sheep; and whereas God did not create the people slaves to their prince, to obey his commands, whether right or wrong, but rather the prince for the sake of the subjects (without which he could be no prince), to govern them according to equity, to love and support them as a father his children or a shepherd his flock, and even at the hazard of life to defend and preserve them. And when he does not behave thus, but, on the contrary, oppresses them, seeking opportunities to infringe their ancient customs and privileges . . . then he is no longer a prince, but a tyrant, and the subjects are to consider him in no other view . . . This is the only method left for subjects whose humble petitions and remonstrances could never soften their prince or dissuade him from his tyrannical proceedings; and this is what the law of nature dictates for the defense of liberty, which we ought to transmit to posterity, even at the hazard of our lives. . . . . So, having no hope of reconciliation, and finding no other remedy, we have, agreeable to the law of nature in our own defense, and for maintaining the rights, privileges, and liberties of our countrymen, wives, and children, and latest posterity from being enslaved by the Spaniards, been constrained to renounce allegiance to the King of Spain [Philip II], and pursue such methods as appear to us most likely to secure our ancient liberties and privileges.

    Then, there is Blackstone on natural law context:

    Man, considered as a creature, must necessarily be subject to the laws of his creator, for he is entirely a dependent being . . . consequently, as man depends absolutely upon his maker for every thing, it is necessary that he should in all points conform to his maker’s will. This will of his maker is called the law of nature. For as God, when he created matter, and endued it with a principle of mobility, established certain rules for the perpetual direction of that motion; so, when he created man, and endued him with freewill to conduct himself in all parts of life, he laid down certain immutable laws of human nature, whereby that freewill is in some degree regulated and restrained, and gave him also the faculty of reason to discover the purport of those laws . . . These are the eternal, immutable laws of good and evil, to which the creator himself in all his dispensations conforms; and which he has enabled human reason to discover, so far as they are necessary for the conduct of human actions. Such among others are these principles: that we should live honestly [NB: cf. Exod. 20:15 – 16], should hurt nobody [NB: cf. Rom 13:8 – 10], and should render to every one his due [NB: cf. Rom 13:6 – 7 & Exod. 20:15]; to which three general precepts Justinian[1: a Juris praecepta sunt hace, honeste vivere. alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere. Inst, 1. 1. 3] has reduced the whole doctrine of law [and, Corpus Juris, Justinian’s Christianised precis and pruning of perhaps 1,000 years of Roman jurisprudence, in turn is the foundation of law for much of Europe]. [Parenthetical remarks and emphases added.]

    Where of course I would welcome the links to the TV Programme that regularly features ghosts of these worthies and others back to, say, Cicero. Oh yes, Cicero:

    —Marcus [in de Legibus, introductory remarks,. C1 BC, being Cicero himself]: . . . the subject of our present discussion . . . comprehends the universal principles of equity and law. In such a discussion therefore on the great moral law of nature, the practice of the civil law can occupy but an insignificant and subordinate station. For according to our idea, we shall have to explain the true nature of moral justice, which is congenial and correspondent [36]with the true nature of man.

    [–> Note, how justice and our built in nature as a morally governed class of creatures are highlighted; thus framing the natural law frame: recognising built-in law that we do not create nor can we repeal, which then frames a sound understanding of justice. Without such an anchor, law inevitably reduces to the sort of ruthless, nihilistic might- and- manipulation- make- “right,”- “truth,”- “knowledge,”- “law”- and- “justice”- etc power struggle and chaos Plato warned against in The Laws Bk X.]

    We shall have to examine those principles of legislation by which all political states should be governed. And last of all, shall we have to speak of those laws and customs which are framed for the use and convenience of particular peoples, which regulate the civic and municipal affairs of the citizens, and which are known by the title of civil laws.

    Quintus [his real-life brother]. —You take a noble view of the subject, my brother, and go to the fountain–head of moral truth, in order to throw light on the whole science of jurisprudence: while those who confine their legal studies to the civil law too often grow less familiar with the arts of justice than with those of litigation.

    Marcus. —Your observation, my Quintus, is not quite correct. It is not so much the science of law that produces litigation, as the ignorance of it, (potius ignoratio juris litigiosa est quam scientia) . . . . With respect to the true principle of justice, many learned men have maintained that it springs from Law. I hardly know if their opinion be not correct, at least, according to their own definition; for “Law (say they) is the highest reason, implanted in nature, which prescribes those things which ought to be done, and forbids the contrary.” This, they think, is apparent from the converse of the proposition; because this same reason, when it [37]is confirmed and established in men’s minds, is the law of all their actions.

    They therefore conceive that the voice of conscience is a law, that moral prudence is a law, whose operation is to urge us to good actions, and restrain us from evil ones. They think, too, that the Greek name for law (NOMOS), which is derived from NEMO, to distribute, implies the very nature of the thing, that is, to give every man his due. [–> this implies a definition of justice as the due balance of rights, freedoms and responsibilities] For my part, I imagine that the moral essence of law is better expressed by its Latin name, (lex), which conveys the idea of selection or discrimination. According to the Greeks, therefore, the name of law implies an equitable distribution of goods: according to the Romans, an equitable discrimination between good and evil.

    The true definition of law should, however, include both these characteristics. And this being granted as an almost self–evident proposition, the origin of justice is to be sought in the divine law of eternal and immutable morality. This indeed is the true energy of nature, the very soul and essence of wisdom, the test of virtue and vice.

    You know where I have taken such thinking, in compressed form:

    We can readily identify at least seven inescapable first duties of reason. Inescapable, as they are so antecedent to reasoning that even the objector implicitly appeals to them; i.e. they are self-evident. Duties, to truth, to right reason, to prudence, to sound conscience, to neighbour, so also to fairness and justice etc. Such built in law is not invented by parliaments or courts, nor can these principles and duties be abolished by such. (Cf. Cicero in De Legibus, c. 50 BC.) Indeed, it is on this framework that we can set out to soundly understand and duly balance rights, freedoms and duties; which is justice. The legitimate main task of government, then, is to uphold and defend the civil peace of justice through sound community order reflecting the built in, intelligible law of our nature. Where, as my right implies your duty a true right is a binding moral claim to be respected in life, liberty, honestly aquired property, innocent reputation etc. To so justly claim a right, one must therefore demonstrably be in the right. Thus, too, we may compose sound civil law informed by that built-in law of our responsibly, rationally free morally governed nature; from such, we may identify what is unsound or false thus to be reformed or replaced even though enacted under the colour and solemn ceremonies of law. These duties, also, are a framework for understanding and articulating the corpus of built-in law of our morally governed nature, antecedent to civil laws and manifesting our roots in the Supreme Law-giver, the inherently good, utterly wise and just creator-God.

    Things like that . . .

    Until the repudiation of that inheritance, such has been central.

    That is the fight, over the key foundations and buttresses of a constitutional republic, of significant but carefully regulated democratic character.

    KF

  196. 196
    kairosfocus says:

    DS, of course you know there are commemoratives for just about any conceivable thing. I doubt they will hold collector’s value. KF

  197. 197
    jerry says:

    I thought not lying was a moral imperative?

    Well I am glad you cannot provide anything significant.

    Lying can range from telling a 4 yr old that Santa is coming soon to not telling someone you are defrauding him or her of their life savings and even far beyond that.

    Thirty people once showed at a restaurant for my wife’s 40th birthday and I told her we were only meeting an old friend for dinner. She believed me. People flew from California to New York for the dinner.

    Lying can mean a lot of things. Not all have the same effect.

  198. 198
    rhampton7 says:

    Remember Dr Raoult’s miraculous HCQ cure in Spring, when the virus was more virulent and lethal? Remember the impossible to reproduce figures from his reports?

    Well…

    Is there really no resuscitation bed at Didier Raoult’s IHU?

    THE VERIFICATION – Renaud Muselier, president of the PACA regional council and support of the Marseille professor, affirmed it, arousing the astonishment of many Internet users.

    The scene took place on September 28, on the set of CNews . Visibly indignant by the fact that the Minister of Health Olivier Véran did not meet members of the Institut hospitalo-universitaire (IHU) Méditerranée Infection during his visit to Marseille three days earlier, the journalist Pascal Praud asks for the Right to Renaud Muselier, president of the PACA regional council and support from Didier Raoult. He replied that the visit concerned the risk of saturation of intensive care services in Marseille. But ” there are no intensive care beds at the IHU “, he blurted out.

    Pascal Praud is amazed. ” They don’t have resuscitation beds at the IHU?” “. It should be remembered that the intensive care services welcome the patients most seriously affected by Covid. Logically, it is these services that record the highest Covid-19 mortality rates

    https://www.lefigaro.fr/sciences/n-y-a-t-il-vraiment-aucun-lit-de-reanimation-a-l-ihu-de-didier-raoult-nbsp-20201006

  199. 199
    rhampton7 says:

    Dr Raoult’s latest hypothesis is a real treat…

    Finally, questioned on the management of the epidemic by the States, Professor Raoult believes that “Western Europe and the United States are doing rather less well than other countries in the world (…) perhaps because our populations are too reactive or too emotional ”.

    http://www.lefigaro.fr/science.....e-20201006

    That must explain the virus running through the White House, no?

  200. 200
    Mac McTavish says:

    KF@196, exactly when did people stop having input into how our civilization should be run? Was it in 347 BC? 50 BC? 1 BC? 1776? Are you so blind that you can’t acknowledge that people in the present generation should have something to say about how their lives should be led?

  201. 201
    kairosfocus says:

    RH7, really. Dr Raoult’s research institute is housed in a four-hospital 3500 or so bed cluster with extensive facilities. Remember, he was able to whistle up multiple CT scans for 500+ patients, showing lung damage before symptoms were readily apparent. KF

  202. 202
    kairosfocus says:

    MMT,

    you have made the usual red herring led away to a strawman argument. Typical, and a sign of desperation to push through a radical agenda that cannot stand up to the classic principles of lawful liberty that lie at the foundation of constitutional democracy.

    What we cannot change at will is the clear, demonstrated record of history, on pain of turning from truth to fictitious, agenda-serving narratives; such as the 1619 project pushed by NYT. The cited facts document where our heritage has come from, the principles that are the bedrock foundation of the breakthrough of 1776. Where, the rejection or willy-nilly dismissal and distortion of those principles to serve agendas will predictably lead to marches of folly and destructive chaos. Indeed, that is precisely the consistent record of a long string of radical revolutions from 1789 on that are not restrained by the keystone natural law premise of justice, the due balance of rights, freedoms and responsibilities shaped by our inescapably morally governed nature reflected in the self-evident first duties of reason.

    Where, we cannot but observe how you must appeal to said duties even as you try to twist them to suit radical agendas. Accordingly, let me refocus my core points that have been repeatedly put on the table month after month without a cogent answer, points that you will readily see reflect Cicero, Moses, Jesus, Paul, Justinian’s Jurisconsults, Alfred’s Book of Dooms, Samuel Langton’s Magna Carta, Blackstone’s common law frame of thought, William of Orange and co, as well as the US framers . . . building a consensus that has been a guiding star to modern, sound constitutional government:

    We can readily identify at least seven inescapable first duties of reason. Inescapable, as they are so antecedent to reasoning that even the objector implicitly appeals to them; i.e. they are self-evident. Duties, to truth, to right reason, to prudence, to sound conscience, to neighbour, so also to fairness and justice etc. Such built in law is not invented by parliaments or courts, nor can these principles and duties be abolished by such. (Cf. Cicero in De Legibus, c. 50 BC.) Indeed, it is on this framework that we can set out to soundly understand and duly balance rights, freedoms and duties; which is justice. The legitimate main task of government, then, is to uphold and defend the civil peace of justice through sound community order reflecting the built in, intelligible law of our nature. Where, as my right implies your duty a true right is a binding moral claim to be respected in life, liberty, honestly aquired property, innocent reputation etc. To so justly claim a right, one must therefore demonstrably be in the right. Thus, too, we may compose sound civil law informed by that built-in law of our responsibly, rationally free morally governed nature; from such, we may identify what is unsound or false thus to be reformed or replaced even though enacted under the colour and solemn ceremonies of law. These duties, also, are a framework for understanding and articulating the corpus of built-in law of our morally governed nature, antecedent to civil laws and manifesting our roots in the Supreme Law-giver, the inherently good, utterly wise and just creator-God.

    You clearly cannot soundly answer so you have resorted to strawman tactics and the attempted nihilism of will to power leading to who controls rule making institutions can do as s/he wills.

    It doesn’t work like that.

    KF

  203. 203
    Mac McTavish says:

    KF, you appear to believe that there are no progressive movements since 1776 that are not Marxist, evil, agit prop nonsense. Yet, there was the abolition movement. The civil rights movement. The labor movement. The feminist movement. The LGBQ movement. The environmental movement. The equal rights movement. And many more. All progressive movements that have greatly improved our society.

  204. 204
    kairosfocus says:

    MMT,

    You continue to inadvertently demonstrate the point, by continuing to set up and knock over strawman targets, projecting mischaracterisations while evading a laying out of inescapable, self-evident principles. Principles, of truth, right reason, prudence, fairness etc that you are forced to implicitly appeal to even as you seek to subvert. I therefore again put up for record, what you so studiously evade:

    We can readily identify at least seven inescapable first duties of reason. Inescapable, as they are so antecedent to reasoning that even the objector implicitly appeals to them; i.e. they are self-evident. Duties, to truth, to right reason, to prudence, to sound conscience, to neighbour, so also to fairness and justice etc. Such built in law is not invented by parliaments or courts, nor can these principles and duties be abolished by such. (Cf. Cicero in De Legibus, c. 50 BC.) Indeed, it is on this framework that we can set out to soundly understand and duly balance rights, freedoms and duties; which is justice. The legitimate main task of government, then, is to uphold and defend the civil peace of justice through sound community order reflecting the built in, intelligible law of our nature. Where, as my right implies your duty a true right is a binding moral claim to be respected in life, liberty, honestly aquired property, innocent reputation etc. To so justly claim a right, one must therefore demonstrably be in the right. Thus, too, we may compose sound civil law informed by that built-in law of our responsibly, rationally free morally governed nature; from such, we may identify what is unsound or false thus to be reformed or replaced even though enacted under the colour and solemn ceremonies of law. These duties, also, are a framework for understanding and articulating the corpus of built-in law of our morally governed nature, antecedent to civil laws and manifesting our roots in the Supreme Law-giver, the inherently good, utterly wise and just creator-God.

    Notice, the stated premise of sound reformation: “from such, we may identify what is unsound or false thus to be reformed or replaced even though enacted under the colour and solemn ceremonies of law.”

    This, you studiously evaded in setting up and knocking over a strawman.

    That studious evasiveness of the manifestly self-evident, in turn, inadvertently reveals disregard for the mutuality of said principles and considerations tied to them, such as that there is built in moral governance, i.e. intelligible natural law that provides the framework of duties that guide responsible, rational significantly free creatures. Law, that is therefore discovered, recognised as self-evident and enduring — as much so, as that 2 + 3 = 5 i/l/o || + ||| –> ||||| (which pivots on first principles of reason such as distinct identity . . . ) — rather than invented and imposed by might and/or manipulation.

    Notice, here, how three distinct units united with two further ones necessarily, inescapably yields five distinct units. Something that one with experience to understand will readily see vas so and as necessarily so on pain of instant, patent absurdity. Just so, error exists is undeniably so not merely empirically so as attempted denial presents us with a case in point. And so forth. Part of our dilemma is the denial of self-evident, manifestly intelligible antecedent first truths that we are duty-bound to respect. For further example, Epictetus on first principles of reason:

    DISCOURSES
    CHAPTER XXV

    How is logic necessary?

    When someone in [Epictetus’] audience said, Convince me that logic is necessary, he answered: Do you wish me to demonstrate this to you?—Yes.—Well, then, must I use a demonstrative argument?—And when the questioner had agreed to that, Epictetus asked him. How, then, will you know if I impose upon you?—As the man had no answer to give, Epictetus said: Do you see how you yourself admit that all this instruction is necessary, if, without it, you cannot so much as know whether it is necessary or not? [Notice, inescapable, thus self evidently true and antecedent to the inferential reasoning that provides deductive proofs and frameworks, including axiomatic systems and propositional calculus etc. Cf J. C. Wright]

    The educational amputation that has blinded us to such is crippling our ability to think straight.

    The resulting breakdown of this understanding and mutuality regarding first duties constituting built in intelligible law that governs our rational freedom is precisely the root of radicalisation and source of undermining buttresses of responsible, constitutional self-government of democratic character.

    This is also the manifestation of exactly the radicalisation that drives the ever deepening hostility of ideological polarisation that has now reached 4GW civil insurgency that now steadily climbs the insurgency escalator I highlighted yesterday. There is a breach of the civil compact and it comes from those who imagine themselves champions of progress. They fail to understand that a breakdown of the civil compact leading to chaos then imposition of ideological, fundamentally lawless oligarchy is a slide into the vortex of tyranny, progressive ruin.

    I will simply note that genuine equality and rights, i.e. justice and fairness, pivot on said first duties of responsible reason. As a direct consequence, fundamental rights are not impositions of power but pivot on manifestly, demonstrably being in the right and in balance with the core rights of all. For, there is no justice, fairness or equity in compelling others to do or uphold evil and lies (such as that a man is a woman or a woman a man etc on their say so . . . yes, such an absurdity shows just how warped this is) under false colours and ceremonies of law expressed in decrees of oppression. What is a man profited if he gains the whole world at cost of tainting, fatally warping, losing and damning his own soul.

    And yes, the atheist’s veto here reveals its true, lawless character.

    I have no desire to further side track a discussion that has a different main focus, so I will simply note for record.

    1: The lasting abolition of slavery and rise of civil rights movements, was driven by the recognition by a growing mass of people (in key part influenced by the conscience softening impact of the Wesley-Whitefield revivals and successors) that the principles in the US declaration were true and mandated significant change, breaking the moral power of the hitherto dominant oligarchic interests.

    2: In turn (and as repeatedly pointed out on abundant history but studiously evaded through the Wilsonian rhetorical side-step), that trend was rooted in the rise of printing, publication of vernacular Bibles, rise of literacy, development of bills, tracts, newspapers and coffee shops etc that allowed development of informed public opinion and democratisation.

    3: Key markers of that process are the Glorious Revolution of 1688 -9 and the American one 1776 – 79. For the first time in history, it became possible to move beyond oligarchy to constitutions creating representational self-government of democratic character, motivated by key principles of lawful liberty drawn from the natural law and its extension from first duties of reason. As was pointed out above but was predictably studiously evaded in a rush to strawman tactic evasions.

    4: These are clearly documented and demonstrable on sound history, but alas there has been studious manipulation of education and public discussion that drives a hostile emotive response to sound principle and undeniable facts. Thus, we see enmity to truth and lawfulness, reflected in the cynical exploitation of first duties of reason by the critical theories that derive from Marxism historically as is plainly admitted (history that is being subverted yet again).

    5: The 1619 project championed by the New York Times and infiltrating education systems, in particular, is a glaring example, revealing the corrupt nature of so-called Critical Race Theory. I note for record again, Enc Brit on that theory:

    Critical race theory (CRT), the view that the law and legal institutions are inherently racist and that race itself, instead of being biologically grounded and natural, is a socially constructed concept that is used by white people to further their economic and political interests at the expense of people of colour. According to critical race theory (CRT), racial inequality emerges from the social, economic, and legal differences that white people create between “races”

    [–> they refuse to recognise the manifest fact that a Chinese couple or an Indian one will have children of distinct, readily recognised character, or that mixed couples will have children with shared character, tracing to genetic deposit]

    to maintain elite white interests in labour markets

    [–> the marxist labour theory of value thesis that seeks to delegitimise the value of managerial, entrepreneurial and investor services, linked risk premiums, and the ownership of savings, investments, and physical or intellectual capital]

    and politics,

    [ –> attempt to subvert the principles recognised in 1776, using acknowledged painful compromises to subvert appreciation for the force of said principles and courage to declare what one struggled to achieve]

    giving rise to poverty and criminality in many minority communities.

    [–> poverty at subsistence level is the natural malthusian circumstance, it is wealth building growth, economic-technological transformation and widely shared prosperity that require serious explanation and cumulative prudent effort, which are being undermined by said theory]

    The CRT movement officially organized itself in 1989, at the first annual Workshop on Critical Race Theory, though its intellectual origins go back much further, to the 1960s and ’70s.

    6: Where, sound reformation builds on that mutual understanding, it does not subvert it. Such subversion is precisely what we now face.

    I could go on and on, but the above is enough for the responsible.

    KF

  205. 205
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: Daily Mail:

    Joe Biden now says the second debate next week should be CANCELED if Donald Trump stays COVID positive and tells the president to stay off Twitter after his flurry of tweets from his East Wing quarantine

    Biden said Tuesday that the debate should be called off if Trump still has COVID
    Next debate is scheduled for October 15 and a third is scheduled for October 22
    Trump returned to the White House on Monday after three days of treatment for COVID-19 at the Walter Reed National Military Medical Center
    Biden’s campaign says he tested negative for COVID-19 earlier on Tuesday

    By Valerie Edwards For Dailymail.com

    Published: 01:27 BST, 7 October 2020 | Updated: 07:19 BST, 7 October 2020

    The Med people were saying through Press Secretary yesterday, that they would monitor through the weekend. Of course the PCR test detects remnants so the virus free question is debatable.

    If we are to take the tweeting index someone suggested, Mr Trump is back as NY Contractor in chief.

    I think he claimed to be feeling better than 20 years ago, when he was mid 50’s. (I guess a few days enforced bed rest did him some good.)

    KF

  206. 206
    daveS says:

    Also that steroid apparently can induce mania. And yesterday’s tweet storm was epic.

  207. 207
    ET says:

    Mac and cheese is just another insipid troll. The lefty media has been attacking Trump before he became the President. The lefty media is full of liars and losers. Their lies have been well documented. Their fear-mongering has been well documented.

    And same-sex marriage is still unnatural. So it should not be allowed on that ground alone. The next progression will be to allow all marriages for the SAME reasons we allow same-sex marriage.

  208. 208
    ET says:

    The tweet storm was epic? The new attacks have been epic loser left spewage.

    It is beyond pathetic that people attack Trump but leave the losers who started it alone.

  209. 209
    daveS says:

    ET,

    Yes, epic and not in a good way. Reminiscent of Kanye’s recent meltdowns.

  210. 210
    ET says:

    Wow. Ignoring the lefty meltdowns is a sure sign of agenda-driven bias, daves. Just look at the shite he was responding to.

  211. 211
    ET says:

    It is very telling that the lefties are mum on the new documents showing that Hillary, Biden and Obama all had a hand in the FBI trying to dig up dirt on Trump back in 2016. They started the Russian collusion BS. What they did was very illegal. Yet the lefties here have nothing to say about it.

    Very telling, that

  212. 212
    kairosfocus says:

    DS, first, the steroids were not anabolic, and what I glanced at to confirm current activity were not manic. I did not necessarily like the NY Contractor in chief tone, but the projections and accusations are over the top; some are outright conspiracism. KF

  213. 213
    daveS says:

    KF,

    Yes, not anabolic of course. Not sure why that bears mentioning.

    Neither of us is a physician, but what was going on with his erratic behavior yesterday? Canceling stimulus negotiations until after the election? Then trying to reopen them a few hours later? Nuts!

    Edit: FTR, he sent 200 tweets and retweets yesterday.

  214. 214
    daveS says:

    ET,

    Do you anticipate an appearance by this guy soon? 😂

  215. 215
    JVL says:

    ET: And same-sex marriage is still unnatural. So it should not be allowed on that ground alone.

    Do you have any legal reasons it should not be allowed?

  216. 216
    ET says:

    It is unnatural, JVL. That is legal reason enough.

  217. 217
    ET says:

    Canceling the stimulus negotiations because the democrats want to bail out democratic States that were poorly managed for years. That sounds very reasonable to me.

    What we should do is cancel the shut down and have everyone get back to work. First, the EVMS covid-19 management protocol should be made public- as in posted all over the internet and in newspapers. It should stress the prophylaxis. Then, if people don’t follow it their infection is on them.

  218. 218
    JVL says:

    ET: It is unnatural, JVL. That is legal reason enough.

    Not really. You live in a country where rights and privileges are determined by laws and precedents. So, what legal arguments would you make in a court to deny same-sex couples the right to marriage?

  219. 219
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL & ET, there is no reason to indulge further debate on what is not, though it is pretended under colour of law. It is enough to note that marriage is part of natural law and end the matter. This thread is about a much different matter. KF

  220. 220
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL, law is not arbitrary, despite what the legal positivists imagine. That is part of the intellectual bankruptcy of this phase of our civilisation. That bankruptcy invites the nihilism of might and manipulation, leading to breakdown of liberty. Such a fatal conceit is part of what will have to be corrected to restore sound order. KF

    PS: As an initial thought towards needed reform:

    We can readily identify at least seven inescapable first duties of reason. Inescapable, as they are so antecedent to reasoning that even the objector implicitly appeals to them; i.e. they are self-evident. Duties, to truth, to right reason, to prudence, to sound conscience, to neighbour, so also to fairness and justice etc. Such built in law is not invented by parliaments or courts, nor can these principles and duties be abolished by such. (Cf. Cicero in De Legibus, c. 50 BC.) Indeed, it is on this framework that we can set out to soundly understand and duly balance rights, freedoms and duties; which is justice. The legitimate main task of government, then, is to uphold and defend the civil peace of justice through sound community order reflecting the built in, intelligible law of our nature. Where, as my right implies your duty a true right is a binding moral claim to be respected in life, liberty, honestly aquired property, innocent reputation etc. To so justly claim a right, one must therefore demonstrably be in the right. Thus, too, we may compose sound civil law informed by that built-in law of our responsibly, rationally free morally governed nature; from such, we may identify what is unsound or false thus to be reformed or replaced even though enacted under the colour and solemn ceremonies of law. These duties, also, are a framework for understanding and articulating the corpus of built-in law of our morally governed nature, antecedent to civil laws and manifesting our roots in the Supreme Law-giver, the inherently good, utterly wise and just creator-God.

    And yes, this points to the inherent lawlessness of the atheists’ veto.

  221. 221
    ET says:

    Clarence Thomas weighs in:

    “By choosing to privilege a novel constitutional right over the religious liberty interests explicitly protected in the First Amendment, and by doing so undemocratically, the Court has created a problem that only it can fix,” wrote Mr Thomas.

    “Until then, Obergefell will continue to have ‘ruinous consequences for religious liberty,” he continued, whilst claiming that Davis “may have been one of the first victims of this court’s cavalier treatment of religion in its Obergefell decision” and warned: “She will not be the last.”

    It is unnatural and leads to ruinous consequences of religious liberty. So those are the legal arguments that I would make.

    And again, if we allow same-sex marriages then we can’t stop there. The same reasoning applies to all types of marriages.

  222. 222
    kairosfocus says:

    ET, I am gavelling a toxic distractor. You are right that judges legislating from the bench, under a positivist notion are destructive and are setting awful precedents. The problem is, we are seeing those who imagine they can seize and hold power to control, as the squalling over the USSC vacancy shows. KF

  223. 223
    RHolt says:

    ET @ 165 ‘I posted the references for HCQ and ACE2 receptors.’

    You did not post any references demonstrating that HCQ treatment actually alters ACE2 receptor conformation. Now if you have any references that show this change, e.g., via x-ray crystallography, go ahead and post them and make me eat crow. Otherwise, the previously posted references documenting the lack of efficacy of HCQ treatment on viral replication/infection on human lung and airway tissue stands as very strong evidence that the pathway you and KF think is plausible does not exist in these tissues.

  224. 224
    RHolt says:

    DaveS @ 213 ‘Yes, not anabolic of course. Not sure why that bears mentioning.’

    That is a puzzling response by KF. The only thing I can come up with is that he somehow thinks a statement of this sort negates the well-known neurologic and behavioral effects of dexamethasone. These well-known side effects include insomnia, euphoria, felling of invincibility, and at times delusions. the list is not inclusive and there are more but these are the most applicable to the Trump’s condition/treatment. I imagine he is being given something on the order of 6 grams of dexamethasone per day.

    Perhaps KF will clear up why he thinks that the distinction between anabolic and glucocorticoid is somehow relevant to the conversation. Or not.

  225. 225
    JVL says:

    SNIP -gavelled, as was warned. I will note the arbitrary shift under colour of law already happened, undermining appeal to anything but power. The consequences, we need to ponder. KF

  226. 226
    RHolt says:

    KF @ 220 ‘law is not arbitrary’

    Sure it is. Example permissive age for drinking alcohol.

  227. 227
    kairosfocus says:

    RHolt, do you really want to go to might and/or manipulation make ‘law’/ ‘lawfulness’/ ‘right’/ ‘rights’/ ‘justice’/ ‘truth’/ ‘logic’/ ‘knowledge’ etc? You are inadvertently demonstrating the point as to the radical breach with first duties and first principles that has been made and where it ends. Nihilism. Our civilisation is playing with hell fire it does not understand. KF

  228. 228
    kairosfocus says:

    UPDATE: W H Press Secretary releases Wed Oct 7 Doctor’s statement. Mr Trump is within normal range on examination, has been symptom free 24 hours, fever free 4 days. Blood drawn Monday had detectable antibodies, that drawn Tuesday did not. Obviously monitoring continues, it was set to go through the week end. KF

  229. 229
    JVL says:

    Kairosfocus: SNIP -gavelled, as was warned. I will note the arbitrary shift under colour of law already happened, undermining appeal to anything but power. The consequences, we need to ponder.

    So, you’re censoring dissenting views now? Isn’t this whole website about supporting dissenting views? Isn’t it about considering the data and the evidence and not about supporting some hierarchy?

    Could that possibly be a mote in your own eye?

  230. 230
    JVL says:

    SNIP — distractive as warned.

  231. 231
    JVL says:

    SNIP — distractive as was warned. And BTW passing a decree under colour of law saying pi = 22/7 or any other ratio of whole numbers or any does not change the reality.

  232. 232
    JVL says:

    SNIP — insistently distractive. There is no right to sidetrack, irrelevancies on projecting “religion” as tainting motive and unwarranted assertions on lacking confidence in warrant or legal case are duly noted as third phase trifecta rhetoric: red herrings led to strawmen soaked in ad hominems and set alight. As the below notes, UD has already entertained this toxic side issue some time ago at length during this covid crisis. That issue will not be settled here but it is in fact symptomatic of the deeper perversion of law through severing law from considerations of its foundations in our morally governed nature; starting with the inescapable first duties of reason that your own arguments pivot on. In the end either we will return to recognising such built in law that governs responsible, rationally free creatures, or else we will fall into a nihilistic vortex of might and manipulation. Already, we have seen the next item on the nihilistic confusion agenda: trying to erase the manifest fact of the two sexes and where that points. That nihilistic confusion is a factor in the present 4GW red guard cultural revolution playing out in the USA. KF, thread owner.

  233. 233
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL, you full well know that there is no right of distraction or disruptive behaviour. UD entertained the so-called same sex “marriage” issue some time ago and the usual assertions were raised at length. There is no need to sidetrack this discussion from its focus through toxic distractor: monitoring news on the illness of the person presently holding the US Presidency, an issue relevant to global stability. As of now, the series of reports points to good recovery. KF

  234. 234
    RHolt says:

    KF @ 228 ‘fever free 4 days’

    He had better be fever free since there is no better fever suppressor than the glucocorticoid steroid dexamethasone. The question remains if that status will be maintained through the continued dangerous period of potential remission.

    On the detection of antibodies that typically occurs 2 weeks after infection which adds fuel to the fire on the question if he was positive (and knew it) at Tuesday’s debate and the likely reason why he and his entourage arrived too late to be tested.

  235. 235
    JVL says:

    Kairosfocus: JVL, you full well know that there is no right of distraction or disruptive behaviour.

    Clearly opinions which you find uncomfortable can be dismissed as distracting without attempting to address them.

    Clearly dissenting opinions you are unable to address can be censored.

    Is that how your ideal government would behave? Anything that is uncomfortable or hard to answer would just be dismissed and ignored? Isn’t that what you accuse people you disagree with of doing? What kind of state do you really support? Do you really support life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness or not?

  236. 236
    AndyClue says:

    JVL: And BTW passing a decree under colour of law saying pi = 22/7 or any other ratio of whole numbers or any does not change the reality.

    Bad example. Assigning any value to the symbol pi is clearly arbitrary.

  237. 237
    RHolt says:

    KF @ 227 ‘RHolt, do you really want to go to might and/or manipulation make ‘law’’

    this has nothing to do with might and/or manipulation make ‘law’ it does have to do with a correction to your obviously factually incorrect statement.

    Here is another example of the arbitrary nature of laws: age of consent. In the USA age of consent ranges from 16-18, Japan it is 13, in China it is 14, in Bahrain it is 21. Obviously, to anyone reading this is that these are clearly completely arbitrary law(s) made, and enforced, by the citizens and law enforcement personnel in the various states and countries.

    We could look at numerous other examples of laws that are completely arbitrary so to state that laws are not arbitrary is clearly not true.

  238. 238
    kairosfocus says:

    RHolt, scroll up to OP. You will see that a week ago or so he was awaiting results of a test, where a close aide had recently been announced. I would imagine he was concerned as to whether he had caught an ordinary flu or this disease. I doubt that anyone would tolerate routine daily testing for prolonged periods with the sort of procedure in use for nasal swabs. CV19 was confirmed that evening. Add on a five day latent incubation and come forward and antibody presence is seemingly reasonable, though didn’t he receive an antibody treatment early on. KF

    PS: Disease pattern, it seems no serious progress to severe condition.

  239. 239
    ET says:

    For RHolt- From the original article, again

    The mechanism of chloroquine action on RA has long been well known. It increases a cell’s lysosomal pH. (Lysosomes are membrane bound cellular organelles [think tiny balloons inside the cell floating at a lower pH in the higher pH cytosol] containing about 50 enzymes, discovered and named in 1955.) This in turn changes their ‘leaked’ enzyme balance into the cytosol, which then inhibits the cell’s RA tissue antigen signaling, which in turn reduces the immune system’s attack on the RA tissue, slowing (but usually not stopping) progression of RA tissue damage.

    The reason the Chinese and then the French thought to use chloroquine against Wuhan coronavirus is this same mechanism of action, albeit with different sequelae. The viral S protein binds to the epithelial cell wall’s angiotensin-converting enzyme 2 (ACE2) receptor. Raising lysosomal pH changes (via indirect enzymatic action) the ‘shape’ of ACE2 enough that the S protein cannot bind to it, thus preventing cell infection. Chloroquine changes the cell ‘lock’ so the viral ‘key’ doesn’t work. Does not undo damage from infected cells, nor prevent an infected person from shedding existing viable virus, but does stop the spread in an infected person’s body—a promising therapeutic for those testing positive.

    See also: Hydroxychloroquine in COVID-19: Potential Mechanism of Action Against SARS-CoV-2:

    Its mechanism of action (MOA) includes the interference in the endocytic pathway, blockade of sialic acid receptors, restriction of pH mediated spike (S) protein cleavage at the angiotensin-converting enzyme 2 (ACE2) binding site and prevention of cytokine storm.

  240. 240
    RHolt says:

    KF @ 238 ‘You will see that a week ago or so he was awaiting results of a test, where a close aide had recently been announced.’

    ………and the results were? Here are the facts on the ground you, I, and the citizens of the US don’t know when the last negative test was. There are people who know but they don’t want us to have that information for some reason. Same goes for the lung scan results. Given Trump’s affection for bravado it isn’t a very far leap to recognize that positive information would be broadcast loudly and frequently and negative information will be covered up.

    KF @ 238 ‘I doubt that anyone would tolerate routine daily testing for prolonged periods with the sort of procedure in use for nasal swabs.’

    If testing is the foundation of your safety protocol it would be pretty irresponsible to have a lapse for any reason. It would be like having safe sex only some of the time and thinking you are protected.

    As for disease progression it’s likely that he is finished with the steroid treatment and that opens the window of concern. The steroids could be extended but that has it’s own risks as well.
    .

  241. 241
    RHolt says:

    ET @ 239 ‘The viral S protein binds to the epithelial cell wall’s angiotensin-converting enzyme 2 (ACE2) receptor. Raising lysosomal pH changes (via indirect enzymatic action) the ‘shape’ of ACE2 enough that the S protein cannot bind to it, thus preventing cell infection.’

    That is a bare assertion with no supporting data.

    Notice the word ‘Potential’ in your second citations title. There is a reason they used that word. Do you know why?

  242. 242
    kairosfocus says:

    RHolt, first, the import of the test was that he had no known CV19 positive status at that time. Second, there is no way that testing was the foundation of a protective process. Layered protection and screening of access would be. Third, the tests would probably be used periodically (but not every day) or when a questionable contact obtained. Fourth, we are looking at symptom free in context of a recovery track. Relapse is doubtless possible but not likely to be probable. Smart money is that he has beaten the disease, and the next four or so days of medical follow up will confirm the outcome. Of course, he is probably being tested daily now . . . very different from daily for what six months. But then the point is, he is in care of top flight professionals and we need to recognise that. Some of the dismissive commentary on the doctors motivated by obvious partisan hostility that popped up in the Twitter threads tells me even more about how far off the rails the US has now gone. KF

  243. 243
    daveS says:

    KF,

    Do you still think smart money is that Trump wins the election? 😛

  244. 244
    RHolt says:

    KF @ 242 ‘first, the import of the test was that he had no known CV19 positive status at that time’

    What time? What date? If you have information on the date of Trump’s last negative test in would be the only person that has that knowledge outside of Trump and his doctor. It is important to know when the last negative test was and they are withholding that information likely because it wold expose an unflattering timeline.

    KF @ 242 ‘Second, there is no way that testing was the foundation of a protective process’

    The WH administration has made clear and unequivocal statements that testing is the foundation of their safety net/protocol.

    As for disease progression he is heavily under the influence of one of the most powerful steroids in medicine and that class of drug can mask many problems that can re-occur upon withdrawal. Hope he is OK but he is by no means out of the woods yet especially if his lung scans are unfavorable but that is more information that is being withheld again likely because the results portray a figure in opposition to the one Trump wishes to project.

  245. 245
    kairosfocus says:

    RHolt, first, scroll up and read, the face value is not known to have CV19 at that time. Without good evidence to the contrary that is the reasonable start point. Next, not testing of Mr Trump primarily but testing of those seeking close access. Just as with access to a country. The point is to avoid risky contacts. KF

  246. 246
    kairosfocus says:

    DS, I remain on the view of likely outcome, with this further remark. If Mr Trump is defeated, given the radicalism seeking power through the sort of means we are seeing, that would be an even worse sign for the US and the global geostrategic situation. I have already drawn your attention to the insurgency escalator. KF

  247. 247
    Mac McTavish says:

    It appears that Regeneron is the new HCQ.
    https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1313959702104023047?s=21

  248. 248
    RHolt says:

    kf @ 245 ‘Without good evidence to the contrary that is the reasonable start point.’

    The good evidence is the administrations refusal to release the date of the last negative test. That is not being done by accident. It is purposeful and an active program of withholding of information required for contract tracing efforts and their is a reason for the refusal and withholding. It doesn’t take much imagination to figure out why this is the case.

    KF @ 245 ‘The point is to avoid risky contacts.’

    Which is why the question of why he and his entourage showed up too late to be tested prior to the debate. The purpose of that was to avoid risky contacts and it seems obvious to everyone now, given the progression of his disease, that he was positive at the debate.

  249. 249
    RHolt says:

    KF in briefly looking at your cartoon (not cartoonish) diagram upthread there are several obvious errors that you should correct.

  250. 250
    rhampton7 says:

    As scientists and public health professionals, we must convey the critical need for well-designed research, surveillance, and rigorously implemented clinical trials to identify safe, effective interventions, including preexposure and postexposure prophylaxis (PrEP and PEP), treatments, and vaccines. Objective markers of response are needed to assess efficacy, including SARS-CoV-2 shedding as a measure of infectivity in addition to clinical end points. Given the plethora of treatment and vaccine trials, many tens of thousands of study participants are needed. Recruiting Black and Latinx participants is essential, in light of the higher rates of Covid-19 acquisition and worse clinical outcomes in these groups.1 Community engagement is needed to address mistrust of research and reluctance to participate in clinical trials; health care providers, scientists, community leaders, and policymakers can all work to encourage participation.

    With Covid-19, we have the public’s attention; now we need to earn their trust by doing the best science possible, as efficiently as we can, and by clearly communicating our rationale, methods, and results. We have very limited preclinical data on SARS-CoV-2 to guide drug development and immunologic strategies. It is our duty as scientists to avoid supporting unproven interventions, conflating opinion with evidence, or making strong proclamations based on preliminary data from small studies, which are then picked up by the media.

    https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2022269

  251. 251
    ET says:

    The mechanism still exists, RHolt. The “potential” is it may potentially prevent infection.

    The guy on Watts Up is fielding questions. Perhaps you can tell him of his bald assertion. Or contact the French and Chinese labs he was talking about.

  252. 252
    rhampton7 says:

    Earlier this week, US President Donald Trump compared Covid-19 to seasonal influenza. Here I want to look at five differences between flu and Covid-19. There are more. But, these will suffice.

    1 Covid-19 is more transmissible than flu
    2 Covid-19 is more fatal than flu
    3 We have more weapons against flu than Covid-19
    4 We don’t yet have a Covid-19 vaccine, but we have multiple flu vaccines
    5 The entire global population is susceptible to Covid-19

    Details here
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/johndrake/2020/10/06/why-covid-19-isnt-just-a-bad-version-of-the-flu/

  253. 253
    RHolt says:

    ET @ 251 ‘The mechanism still exists’

    If you think so then show me the data that demonstrates this. What changes occurred in the ACE2 receptor? how was conformational change confirmed? You know all those details that science requires in order to make a mechanistic claim. All that statement represents is a something that by abstraction from other cases might exist. No confirmation of this hypothesis is present to date. However, cell culture data using human lung and airway tissue show no indication whatsoever that this biochemical pathway exists. Remember the results of that study I posted where no inhibition of covid replication or infection was seen in human lung and airway cells treated with HCQ and then challenged with sars-cov-2.

    ET @ 251 ‘The “potential” is it may potentially prevent infection.’

    Did you even read the title? Did you notice that the word after ‘Potential’ was ‘Mechanism’? Seems pretty clear what that means. I could read the article and pull some quotes out to confirm this if you want.

  254. 254
    ET says:

    What I know is that two different research teams had the same working hypothesis: “Raising lysosomal pH changes (via indirect enzymatic action) the ‘shape’ of ACE2 enough that the S protein cannot bind to it, thus preventing cell infection. The first part is true based on years of research. The second part was being tested.

  255. 255
    ET says:

    Yes, RHolt, do read the title: Potential Mechanism of Action Against SARS-CoV-2– mechanism of action against. The mechanism that makes it change shape is widely known- this restriction of pH mediated spike (S) protein cleavage at the angiotensin-converting enzyme 2 (ACE2) binding site is a given. Whether or not it is effective at preventing infection is being tested.

  256. 256
    RHolt says:

    ET @ 254 ‘The first part is true based on years of research. The second part was being tested.’

    No, it is not a given. In fact in reading through your citation and following the references cited I found (and you can too!) that all the claims are speculations and not documented. Lots of proposal and hypothesis but a distinct lack of data to confirm the hypothesized mechanism(s).

    In fact looking at reference 33 in the article we find this statement:

    “To our knowledge, there is a lack of studies on the impact of HCQ on the morphology and pH values of endosomes/lysosomes.”

    this just shows the data gap in confirming HCG/CQ effects let alone confirming the notion that ACE2 receptor modifications actually happen.

    Another issue you’re ignoring is that the TMPSSR2 enzyme is unaffected by pH changes and cleaves the S protein into its subunits just fine. This leads to covid virus entry in the cell. This was elucidated in the references I posted many weeks ago, and that KF posted a couple of weeks after that and the reference I posted upthread. It also highlights the differences in mechanistic pathways in Vero cells and human lung and airway cells. Vero cells do not get infected when treated with HCQ and challenged with sars-cov-2 virus but human lung and airway cells do get infected under the same conditions. This also underscores the need for care when extrapolating in-vitro data/results using one species to another, different, species.

    ET, if you think that pH induced enzymatic changes have occurred in the ACE2 receptor is a given you should have no problem laying your hands on the data that describe and document these changes. The reference you posted doesn’t have it nor do any of the cited articles in that reference have it.

    This is why the authors titled the article as “Potential Mechanism of Action…” instead of “Mechanism of Action…”

  257. 257
    RHolt says:

    KF @ 245 ‘Next, not testing of Mr Trump primarily but testing of those seeking close access.’

    Here I assumed that the safety protocols were put in place to not only protect the president but all other govt. officials and staff that are required for the govt to run effectively and efficiently. I didn’t realize it was solely to protect the president.

    If the former is actually correct then it is imperative that everyone is tested daily leaving no weak links in the chain. This would include the president. We now have, due to the lapses in testing protocol, the entire Joints Chief of Staffs (save one) quarantined. Two have no tested positive. Potential security risk? Well, yeah!

    If Trump didn’t want to get tested and skipped testing multiple days in a row (which he admitted too) then that is a glaring weak link presenting a threat to everyone working in that environment. you can’t keep a safe blood supply testing donations sporadically. Same goes for the WH strategy of using testing as the ‘Great Virus Protection Wall’ and of course we have the high error rate (33-45% false negatives) of the rapid testing system the WH is using. This makes daily compliance all the more critical.

  258. 258
    rhampton7 says:

    God wanted our President to know which drugs are effective against COVID by infecting him. I guess God isn’t a big HCQ supporter…

    President Donald Trump said his coronavirus infection was a “blessing from God” because it educated him about potential drugs to treat the disease in a video meant to demonstrate his return to work after several days in the hospital.

    “I think this was a blessing from God that I caught it. It was a blessing in disguise,” he said, citing his first-hand experience with the experimental combination of drugs he was administered at Walter Reed.

    He singled out in particular the high dose of an experimental antibody cocktail from Regeneron, saying he requested it from his doctors and attributing his recovery to its effects.

    Calling the drug a “cure,” Trump said he would work to make it available at no cost to other Americans.

    “I want everybody to be given the same treatment as your President,” Trump said, adding: “It was, like, unbelievable.”

    It also wasn’t clear which drugs the President continues to take. He was due to receive his final dose of remdesivir on Tuesday night at the White House but it wasn’t known if he remains on a steroid, which some inside the building have openly speculated could be altering his mood.

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/07/politics/trump-oval-office-coronavirus/index.html

  259. 259
    rhampton7 says:

    Beginning on Thursday, Ohio pharmacies, clinics and different medical services will likely be prohibited from meting out or promoting the malaria drug hydroxychloroquine, to deal with the novel coronavirus.

    State laws have been up to date on Wednesday to replicate the change but in addition included a number of caveats, reminiscent of if the prescription is for a pet or whether it is a part of a scientific trial to evaluate the effectiveness of the drug when used to struggle COVID-19.

    https://gruntstuff.com/hydroxychloroquine-banned-by-ohio-pharmacy-board-for-coronavirus-treatment/97267/

  260. 260
    ET says:

    So RHolt quote-mines a title. Potential Mechanism of Action Against SARS-CoV-2. The change exists. The protentional is only whether or not it is a mechanism AGAINST the virus. No one, but you, questions if the change occurs. It has been known for years. That is why the French and Chinese teams investigated it as a weapon against covid-19 in the first place.

    Contact them and ask.

  261. 261
    RHolt says:

    ET @ 260 “The change exists.’

    As I previously stated if this is such a given then you should have no problem providing the data that supports this assertion. It is telling that after repeated requests and posting of references that have zero supporting data you cannot provide such basic information, especially, since you claim this has been known for years.

    ET @ 260 ‘That is why the French and Chinese teams investigated it as a weapon against covid-19 in the first place.’

    You reference clearly states that the proposed use of HCQ was based on existing research with other enzymatic pathways and speculation and extrapolation of the case that perhaps this might be the case for HCQ and ACE2 receptors. There is no confirmation of this ACE2 modification and if there were data that documents this/these conformational changes of the ACE2 receptor ou would have already posted it. As it stands you have not been able to support that assertion let alone describe what, exactly, the conformational changes to the ACE2 receptor or how this was, allegedly, determined. If you can’t find the data, ET,, what makes you think it exists?

    Are the changes in the potential glycation sites? One of the sites? All of them(there are 6, FYI)? or is it some other change in enzyme shape and is the change an allosteric effect? Or is it an absence of enzyme modification? If yes, what modification? These are the questions anybody making the clams you are making should be prepared to document. Question is can you?

    .

  262. 262
    Mac McTavish says:

    I have consumed an entire bag of popcorn while sitting back and watching RHolt point out ET’s mistakes. It has been quite entertaining.

  263. 263
    kairosfocus says:

    RH, The relevant contact tracing is not a public exercise, as should be obvious from say the parallel case of HIV and the well known principle of medical confidentiality. Next, the layered protections will have inevitable priorities tied to chain of succession; due to the stability issue. The logic would be, to minimise disruption to key systems, facilities/offices, agencies and events. I doubt that clusters can be wholly blocked, but there can be containment. Thus before you get to clusters, you put layers that build on the general attempts to break transmission chains and/or minimise facility overload. Those are just general notes, we can pick up signs that point to such. But, again, there is no general loss of medical confidentiality by those holding high office, the public’s legitimate interest extends to what is needed to preserve stability and confidence. Which, BTW, would be precisely why medical bulletins are now sent to Press Secretary and issued to the public by her, instead of further opening up untrained medical officers to agit prop attack dogs in the guise of journalists. KF

  264. 264
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: I recall an incident when I went to work for an institution in my homeland. I was sent to the clinic to do a physical, which I did. then, I was to do some tests. I was handed a test order card in a weird green. What is that for? STD’s and HIV. I balked. HR tried to tell me it was routine, I responded that this was unjustified and likely to be tainting, I even pointed out that one’s status on such can change in five minutes if one is inclined to relevant behaviour; the issue is presumption of responsibility and so character, a matter of confidence in or automatic suspicion of. I ended up getting legal counsel and challenging the policy. I also shared a case of leaking in the media. The policy was against statute and was changed, however this forced me to make waves against the flow in early days on the job. We need to think about underlying issues and implications. KF

  265. 265
    jerry says:

    Whatever the mechanism for how HCQ works, it has been the most prescribed treatment against C19 in the world and argumentatively the most effective treatment.

    How do I know this? Common sense and human nature. There is no recommended alternative. So it has no competition. There are thousands trying to disprove it works and all have failed. We have on UD a local contingency of these failed attackers. On the other side there are many large studies showing effectiveness.

    There have been incredibly bad research studies published attacking it and some have been recalled. No study exist that undermines it. What is one to think of this?

    In case of being infected, immediately consider HCQ. But in combination with what seems to work best. I personally would bet on zinc but there are others.

    One of the good things about Trump getting C19 is that there now a focus on treatment where before the mantra was there was no treatment. This should lead to a host of different therapies.

  266. 266
    jerry says:

    Separate question for all those waiting for a vaccine as the world crumbles for hundreds of millions and maybe billions.

    What does a vaccine do?

    Does it provide anything more than antibodies? Is a large proportion of world already in possession of these antibodies so not in need of a vaccine? Are there therapies that also provide these antibodies? Will a large percentage of the world not need a vaccine because they are not susceptible to the effects of the virus because they are young? Shouldn’t everyone who becomes infected before a vaccine appears be given the best known treatment? Have a million plus now died without given a treatment while waiting for a vaccine?

    Another even more important question.

    Is waiting for a vaccine an extremely selfish attitude by the relatively well off who can survive the lockdowns while their poorer brethren die or have a much diminished life due to non C19 causes?

    I would answer yes to this question.

  267. 267
    daveS says:

    Jerry,

    I don’t know much about vaccines so I can’t give a very good answer to your first question. My understanding is that vaccines to stimulate the production of antibodies . I remember reading something about “memory cells” as well. I don’t know anything about whether a large proportion of the population already has these antibodies or doesn’t need a vaccine. I’m guessing that the scale of the effort to produce a vaccine indicates that many of us do need it.

    I’ve been fortunate enough to work straight through the pandemic, but I have seen many people lose their jobs. In my area, it seems that hand washing, sanitizer, masks, and social distancing is enough to keep the virus at bay. We have had no deaths and very few cases in total. Since we have the means to control the virus, it’s extremely important that the restrictions be loosened (and in fact they have, some time ago). I live in a sparsely populated area, however, so I can’t say what works in other regions. It would obviously be selfish to keep a lockdown in place when there are other effective methods for controlling the spread of the disease which allow the economy to function more normally.

    Edit:

    Shouldn’t everyone who becomes infected before a vaccine appears be given the best known treatment? Have a million plus now died without given a treatment while waiting for a vaccine?

    Answers: Yes. I don’t know.

  268. 268
    kairosfocus says:

    Jerry & DS, sobering issues. My own concern is rapid mutation and formation of other strains beyond the reach of a vaccine. Long term I think CV19 will become another strain or family of strains rather, of the common cold. KF

  269. 269
    jerry says:

    I would suggest that all follow/read Alex Berenson and Gummi Bear on Twitter. Also Jennifer Cabrera. Berenson and Gummi Bear respond to their critics so you will get their opposition thinking too. They will provide you with points of view and thinking being suppressed by the media and the medical bureaucracy.

    I specifically used “medical bureaucracy” and not “medical community” because there are literally tens of thousands of doctors opposing the medical bureaucracy and would support my position on HCQ just above because they prescribe HCQ usually in combination.

  270. 270
    jerry says:

    My own concern is rapid mutation and formation of other strains beyond the reach of a vaccine.

    If there is an effective treatment that does not depend on the variant of the virus, would a vaccine be necessary? See my comment #52 above about the origin of the medical bureaucracy opposition to HCQ. Remember the financial support for the medical bureaucracy is not patient care but either government or large organizations. Mainly these large organizations.

    The dynamics at play in the world are between those who treat or do vs the various bureaucracies who get paid by those large organizations who prosper by the relationship with these bureaucracies.

    Remember Fauci has become a multi-millionaire and never practiced medicine. And he lies about HCQ. I wonder why. See my Harry Lyme link above.

  271. 271
    RHolt says:

    Jerry @ 266 ‘Does it provide anything more than antibodies?’

    Absolutely yes. That you even pose this question is a demonstration of a distinct lack of knowledge of infectious disease treatment and prevention.

    Jerry @ 266 ‘Is a large proportion of world already in possession of these antibodies so not in need of a vaccine?’

    No

    Jerry @ 266 ‘Are there therapies that also provide these antibodies?.

    It’s been widely published that this line of therapeutics began development in early spring and is in very early stages of testing. Data released so far is promising but still very small number of trial participants with larger numbers and a more varied demographic needed to confirm both safety and efficacy.

    Jerry @ 266 ‘Will a large percentage of the world not need a vaccine because they are not susceptible to the effects of the virus because they are young?’

    Not in the least.

    Jerry @ 266 ‘Shouldn’t everyone who becomes infected before a vaccine appears be given the best known treatment?’

    Sure if they, or someone else, can pay. Trump’s treatment has been reported to cost $100,000. Under his leadership 7 million people lost health insurance so who will pay for their treatment. Trump claims to want to make the treatment he received to be free for everyone. Nobel goal but again who will suck it up and pay the bill. At 10 sick people per million dollars of treatment it won’t take many people to result in a very large number of $$ somebody is going to have to come up with.

    Jerry @ 266 ‘Have a million plus now died without given a treatment while waiting for a vaccine?’

    Huh? Have people been turned away from hospitals or have they been admitted and treated using the best known regimes?

    Jerry @ 266 ‘Is waiting for a vaccine an extremely selfish attitude by the relatively well off who can survive the lockdowns while their poorer brethren die or have a much diminished life due to non C19 causes?’

    The answer is no, of course. Common sense and logic guides us easily to this answer. Suppression of disease spread in a community benefits all and promotes cautious and protective opening of businesses and services. Careless and haphazard application and compliance with common sense health measures lead to the failed response we see in the USA. When 5% of the world population has 20-25% of active cases and deaths it is abundantly evident that the disease prevention and control policies are a utter failure.

  272. 272
    ET says:

    RHolt- seeing that YOU can’t even read a TITLE for comprehension, there is no way I am going to believe anything you say without a reference. The claim in the paper I referenced stands. You cannot refute it.

    Pound sand and learn how to read for comprehension.

  273. 273
    jerry says:

    RHolt. All nonsense!!!

  274. 274
    ET says:

    Mac ad cheese:

    I have consumed an entire bag of popcorn while sitting back and watching RHolt point out ET’s mistakes.

    What mistakes? RHolt can’t even read for comprehension. And YOU definitely cannot point out any mistakes that I have made.

  275. 275
    ET says:

    RHolt:

    You reference clearly states that the proposed use of HCQ was based on existing research with other enzymatic pathways and speculation and extrapolation of the case that perhaps this might be the case for HCQ and ACE2 receptors.

    WRONG. It does NOT say that. It clearly says that the research showed there was a change and that the change may prevent infection.

  276. 276
    RHolt says:

    Jerry @ 270 ‘If there is an effective treatment that does not depend on the variant of the virus, would a vaccine be necessary’

    Yes, a vaccine would be necessary for any of a number of common sense medically-based reasons.

    Your conspiracy theories on HCQ and its suppression is only slightly humorous up and until the point when you recognize that the indulgence in such folly put peoples lives in danger and result in the loss of life.

    Jerry @ 265 ‘On the other side there are many large studies showing effectiveness.’

    I believe the large studies you are referring too are similar, if not exactly, those put out by Raoult. In these studies 95% of the patients had NEWS scores of 2. By this point in time everyone following this disease and treatment development knows that patients with NEWS scores of 2 are likely to have no serious adverse events. You could give these patients chocolate milkshakes and they would have the same percentages of success as these poorly conducted HCQ studies generated. Which is why Raoult has been excoriated by his peers for his shoddy work and study presentation.

    Another point is Trump clams to have designed his own treatment regime. Obviously missing from the HCQ promoters-in-chief’s regime is HCQ. One doesn’t need to wonder why it wasn’t included. The reason is all too obvious. He reached the same conclusion as the majority of the practicing medical treatment and research community…..HCQ doesn’t work. We see this confirmation in human lung and airway cell culture results where HCQ fails to inhibit viral replication and infection.

  277. 277
    RHolt says:

    ET @ 275 ‘It clearly says that the research showed there was a change and that the change may prevent infection.’

    What research shows there was a change? Seems I’ve asked this question before and if, as you state, this is a given and known for years (decades) there should be oodles of references documenting this. You can’t even come up with one. Might be a reason for that, ET.

  278. 278
    ET says:

    RHolt:

    What research shows there was a change?

    The research that went into HCQ for rheumatoid arthritis. YOU can actually look it up. Or remain willfully ignorant. I don’t care.

    YOU have provided nothing but your denial and inability to read for comprehension

  279. 279
    RHolt says:

    Jerry @ 273 ‘RHolt. All nonsense!!!’

    That seems to be your stock reply when you cannot refute what has been stated. Reminds me of the comments I made on your boulware reference critique. in that critique you include numbers and conclusions that are not even found in the publication. when faced with the facts, substantiated with quotes from the article, you claim ‘nonsense’ and flee the scene. A very apparent and telling pattern of interaction.

  280. 280
    ET says:

    And RHolt- until you collect that $200,000 from Dr. Zelenko, you really don’t have anything to say about HCQ’s effectiveness for fighting covid-19.

  281. 281
    RHolt says:

    ET @ 278 ‘The research that went into HCQ for rheumatoid arthritis’

    What research into RA included/documented ACE@ receptor conformational change?

    You have now regressed to bluffing and trying to bullying your way out of admitting that you cannot find a single source of data that support your claim. As I stated several times now, there might be a reason for that, ET.

  282. 282
    ET says:

    RH&:

    2 Covid-19 is more fatal than flu

    Not true for kids. More kids, ages 0-18 died from the flu than died from covid-19, ages 0-24.

  283. 283
    ET says:

    RHolt- Your ignorance does not equate to my bluffing. What is wrong with you? You denied the reference I posted. You have proven to be unable to read for comprehension.

    You are nothing but an insipid troll

  284. 284
    RHolt says:

    ET @ 280 ‘And RHolt- until you collect that $200,000 from Dr. Zelenko, you really don’t have anything to say about HCQ’s effectiveness for fighting covid-19.’

    I think this is one of your funniest of gambits. Funny because you think science moves forward based on sham monetary challenges. Funnier because you always bring it up when you hit a brick wall trying to find some data to support your claims. Something you claim has been known for years yet no references to document this knowledge appears to exist. That is curious, isn’t it, ET?

  285. 285
    ET says:

    The mechanism that makes it change shape is widely known- this restriction of pH mediated spike (S) protein cleavage at the angiotensin-converting enzyme 2 (ACE2) binding site is a given.

  286. 286
    ET says:

    RHolt- you are just an insipid troll who cannot read for comprehension. Now you are just a liar spewing its desperate lies.

    Prove its a sham monetary challenge or shut up. Do your research and demonstrate there isn’t any conformational change in the ACE2 receptors in the presence of HCQ. or shut up.

  287. 287
    RHolt says:

    ET @ 283 ‘You denied the reference I posted’

    More bluffing. I pointed out that the reference you provided has no data to document the claim being made. Nor, as I pointed out, do the references cited in that article contain any such information. If you think the article has data documenting the conformational change(s) of the ACE2 receptor ten tell me how this was determined. What research methodology was used; x-ray crystallography or something else?

  288. 288
    ET says:

    The paper says the change happens-> restriction of pH mediated spike (S) protein cleavage at the angiotensin-converting enzyme 2 (ACE2) binding site . The challenge was to see if said change also provided an advantage against the virus

  289. 289
    RHolt says:

    ET @ 285 ‘The mechanism that makes it change shape is widely known- this restriction of pH mediated spike (S) protein cleavage at the angiotensin-converting enzyme 2 (ACE2) binding site is a given.’

    If it is widely known where are e references that demonstrate, and document these changes?

    We know that TMPRSS2 is unaffected by pH changes (in the order of physiologically feasable pH values….I’m sure a pH of 2 would denature the enzyme) so what enzyme are you talking about that interacts with sars-cov-2 spike protein if it isn’t TMPRSS2 that cleaves the S protein into its subunits in human lung and airway cells?

  290. 290
    ET says:

    And stop quote-mining my comments. It proves that you are a desperate and insipid troll.

  291. 291
    ET says:

    RHolt:

    If it is widely known where are e references that demonstrate, and document these changes?

    Contact the authors of the paper. Contact the French an Chinese research teams. Contact the author of the article from Watts Up. Or live in your willfully ignorant world.

  292. 292
    RHolt says:

    ET @ 286 ‘Do your research and demonstrate there isn’t any conformational change in the ACE2 receptors in the presence of HCQ. or shut up.

    You want me to prove a negative rather than you bearing the burden of supporting your claim with confirming data? Science doesn’t work that way, ET. You claim the knowledge that HCQ causes conformational changes in the ACE2 receptor yet you can’t provide any references with data supporting this notion. You can’t tell me what, exactly, constitutes these changes. Telling, very telling, ET.

  293. 293
    RHolt says:

    ET @ 291 ‘Contact the authors of the paper. Contact the French an Chinese research teams. Contact the author of the article from Watts Up. Or live in your willfully ignorant world.’

    The last gasp of the failure to support your claim with a single reference documenting conformational changes in the ACE2 receptor as a result of HCQ treatment. I think the readers will, at this point in time, consider the ‘willfully ignorant world’ comment of yours to be projection on your part.

  294. 294
    jerry says:

    That seems to be your stock reply when you cannot refute what has been stated.

    You did not state anything except a denial. So yes, your reply was nonsense.

    I have been reading discussions for weeks on immunity and have read the CDC document on vaccines. Nothing what I asked or suggested contradicts what is known. For example, they have found a large percentage of US blood donations from a few years ago had T cells against the virus.

    I participate in these blog discussions to learn what is known. No one here has provided anything against what I suggested. I find that interesting. RHampton is the best advocate I know for HCQ since in almost 500 posts over 6 months he has provided nothing against HCQ except for fake news and quotes from medical bureaucrats.

  295. 295
    JVL says:

    Jerry: For example, they have found a large percentage of US blood donations from a few years ago had T cells against the virus.

    Yes, I heard about that result as well. What did your source hypothesise was the cause of that?

  296. 296
    ET says:

    RHolt- I have presented my references. You choked on them.

    And showing there isn’t any conformational change isn’t proving a negative. It is showing the positive results of the ACE2 receptors staying the same in the presence of HCQ.

    And that $200,000 challenge still stands. Can hardly wait for more of your lies about that

  297. 297
    ET says:

    It is very telling that RHolt refuses to go to the source of the data.

  298. 298
    jerry says:

    Do these people need a vaccine?

    According to the CDC’s data, the survival rate for C19 is as follows:

    0-19: 99.997%
    20-49: 99.98%
    50-69: 99.5%

    Especially when there are effective treatments for those who get the virus.

  299. 299
    ET says:

    Why require a vaccine when OTC supplements can do the job?

  300. 300
    ET says:

    And it is nice to see that Mac and cheese has been relegated to being a misguided cheerleader. 😛

  301. 301
    daveS says:

    ET,

    Assuming a vaccine comes out in a few months, will you get it?

  302. 302
    Mac McTavish says:

    RHolt, a tip of my hat to you. You have far more patience and tolerance than I have. ET has a long and storied history of resorting to name-calling when he can’t defend his claims. Whenever he starts using terms like “insipid troll”, “liar”, “quote mining”, “willfully ignorant”, and “cannot read for comprehension”, you know that he is just blowing hot air and has no support for his claims. I can’t imaging that there are many sites where he is allowed to comment.

  303. 303
    ET says:

    No daves. I won’t get it unless it is mandated

  304. 304
    ET says:

    Mac and cheese is clearly just an insipid troll. I have defended my claims. Your willful ignorance isn’t my problem. RHolt’s inability to read for comprehension isn’t my problem.

    But it is hilarious that all you are is a misguided cheerleader and a pathological liar

  305. 305
    ET says:

    Again, from the paper I provided to support my claim:

    Recent Findings

    Out of these drugs, chloroquine (CQ) and hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) have demonstrated positive results indicating a potential antiviral role against SARS-CoV-2. Its mechanism of action (MOA) includes the interference in the endocytic pathway, blockade of sialic acid receptors, restriction of pH mediated spike (S) protein cleavage at the angiotensin-converting enzyme 2 (ACE2) binding site and prevention of cytokine storm.

    It is a RECENT FINDING that restriction of pH mediated spike (S) protein cleavage at the angiotensin-converting enzyme 2 (ACE2) binding site.

    As I said, obviously RHolt and mac and cheese cannot read for comprehension. Heck RHolt came here slamming the the concept HCQ can change then pH levels. After being corrected on that RHolt started running around with the goalpost and ignored everything that refuted his ignorance.

  306. 306
    jerry says:

    An article on immunity to the virus for those interested. It discusses T cells and antibodies.

    https://www.newscientist.com/article/2253386-what-are-t-cells-and-why-have-they-become-a-political-football/

    And another one from Sweden. https://news.ki.se/immunity-to-covid-19-is-probably-higher-than-tests-have-shown

    An interview 5 months ago about some possible dark matter preventing people from getting virus

    https://unherd.com/2020/06/karl-friston-up-to-80-not-even-susceptible-to-covid-19/

    Karl Friston: up to 80% not even susceptible to Covid-19
    The influential professor’s statistical observations could radically change how we lift lockdown

    Professor Karl Friston, like Michael Levitt, is a statistician not a virologist; his expertise is in understanding complex and dynamic biological processes by representing them in mathematical models. Within the neuroscience field he was ranked by Science magazine as the most influential in the world, having invented the now standard “statistical parametric mapping” technique for understanding brain imaging — and for the past months he has been applying his particular method of Bayesian analysis, which he calls “dynamic causal modelling”, to the available Covid-19 data.

    Of course they did not pay attention. Who are they that didn’t pay attention? Politicians invested in lockdowns. To politicians one life is a tragedy, a million just a statistic.

  307. 307
    jerry says:

    Has school closings increased the number of total C19 deaths?

    Article from British Medical Journal. https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m3588


    Effect of school closures on mortality from coronavirus disease 2019: old and new predictions

    We confirm that adding school and university closures to case isolation, household quarantine, and social distancing of over 70s would lead to more deaths compared with the equivalent scenario without the closures of schools and universities. Similarly, general social distancing was also projected to reduce the number of cases but increase the total number of deaths compared with social distancing of over 70s only. We note that in assessing the impact of school closures, UK policy advice has concentrated on reducing total number of cases and not the number of deaths.

    This blows the conventional wisdom out of the water.

    Then https://twitter.com/drsimonegold/status/1313199258393145344

    Out of 70,000+ positive reported COVID-19 cases on Universities:

    3 hospitalizations
    0 deaths

    One person found a college student who died but another said it wasn’t from virus. So I’m sure some will die but what is the best practice if their getting the virus saves more lives? Interesting question.

    I remember a stat that said over a thousand college kids die from alcohol consumption each year. Found it.

    About 1,825 college students between the ages of 18 and 24 die from alcohol-related unintentional injuries, including motor-vehicle crashes

  308. 308
    jerry says:

    So the data says don’t lockdown, isolate the vulnerable if they want and treat all high risk infected people. Sounds like Sweden except isolating vulnerable and treating all high risk people.

    Great Twitter exchange.

    We Live More And More In A World In Which Facts No Longer Matter

    Fact Check: True.

    Mostly for the liberal side of the political spectrum.

  309. 309
    jerry says:

    On OP topic

    Trump Stuffs Coronavirus And Mounts It On His Wall

    From a legitimate fake news site
    https://babylonbee.com/news/trump-stuffs-coronavirus-and-puts-it-on-wall

  310. 310
    john_a_designer says:

    Jerry @ 306,

    Of course they did not pay attention. Who are they that didn’t pay attention? Politicians invested in lockdowns. To politicians one life is a tragedy, a million just a statistic.

    And, who gets us into wars? Not the generals. It’s the politicians. It’s always the politicians.

  311. 311
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: Quite the fisking of the partyline laid down by NEJM https://twitter.com/AngryCardio/status/1314003169328979968 KF

  312. 312
    kairosfocus says:

    Folks, there is good substance to chew on, no need for personalities. KF

  313. 313
    rhampton7 says:

    In this randomized, controlled, open-label platform trial comparing a range of possible treatments with usual care in patients hospitalized with Covid-19, we randomly assigned 1561 patients to receive hydroxychloroquine and 3155 to receive usual care. The primary outcome was 28-day mortality.

    The enrollment of patients in the hydroxychloroquine group was closed on June 5, 2020, after an interim analysis determined that there was a lack of efficacy. Death within 28 days occurred in 421 patients (27.0%) in the hydroxychloroquine group and in 790 (25.0%) in the usual-care group (rate ratio, 1.09; 95% confidence interval [CI], 0.97 to 1.23; P=0.15). Consistent results were seen in all prespecified subgroups of patients. The results suggest that patients in the hydroxychloroquine group were less likely to be discharged from the hospital alive within 28 days than those in the usual-care group (59.6% vs. 62.9%; rate ratio, 0.90; 95% CI, 0.83 to 0.98). Among the patients who were not undergoing mechanical ventilation at baseline, those in the hydroxychloroquine group had a higher frequency of invasive mechanical ventilation or death (30.7% vs. 26.9%; risk ratio, 1.14; 95% CI, 1.03 to 1.27). There was a small numerical excess of cardiac deaths (0.4 percentage points) but no difference in the incidence of new major cardiac arrhythmia among the patients who received hydroxychloroquine.

    CONCLUSIONS
    Among patients hospitalized with Covid-19, those who received hydroxychloroquine did not have a lower incidence of death at 28 days than those who received usual care. (Funded by UK Research and Innovation and National Institute for Health Research and others; RECOVERY ISRCTN number, ISRCTN50189673. ClinicalTrials.gov number, NCT04381936.

    https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2022926

  314. 314
    rhampton7 says:

    Treating the sick and dying isn’t even the toughest part for nurse Amelia Montgomery as the coronavirus surges in her corner of red America. (Mission, Kansas)

    It’s dealing with patients and relatives who don’t believe the virus is real, refuse to wear masks and demand treatments like hydroxychloroquine.

    Montgomery finds herself, like so many other doctors and nurses, in a world where the politics of the crisis are complicating treatment efforts, with some people even resisting getting tested.

    After one tough shift in the coronavirus unit at Cox South Hospital in Springfield, Missouri, Montgomery went onto Facebook to vent her frustrations about caring for patients who didn’t socially distance because they didn’t believe the virus was real. The hospital later shared her post on its website.

    She complained that some people demand the anti-malaria drug hydroxychloroquine and think the only patients who get really sick have underlying health problems.

    “The majority of people don’t understand and can’t picture what we are seeing. That has been frustrating for all of us,” Montgomery said in an interview, adding: “It wears.”

    https://mynbc15.com/news/coronavirus/so-frustrating-doctors-and-nurses-battle-virus-skeptics-10-08-2020

  315. 315
    rhampton7 says:

    In D. Raoult’s discipline, he opposes other means of evaluation, such as the direct measurement of the viral load or the observation of the presence or absence of a pathogenic virus in a sample. Of course, in biology, controlled testing is rarely an applicable method. In addition, the measurement of viral load is an imperfect indicator of the clinical effectiveness of a molecule in curing a person. D. Raoult specifies that, for diseases with a very high case fatality rate 1 , “it is quickly to know if it works” [1].

    The problem is that the case fatality rate of Covid-19 is low (compared for example to Ebola) and that almost all of the people that his institute has treated and that he has reported in his studies would no doubt have cured spontaneously, without intervention. It is therefore not as easy as D. Raoult claims to see that “it works”.

    As Claude Bernard already wondered more than 150 years ago: “How do you know if it is the remedy or nature that has healed? » (See box). And, more problematic still, how to ensure that the evaluated treatment does not have negative effects that would outweigh the possible benefits?

    Claude Bernard (1813-1878)

    Claude Bernard, more than a century and a half ago, already warned: “A doctor who tries a treatment which cures his patients is led to believe that the cure is due to his treatment. Often doctors boast of having cured all their patients by a remedy which they have employed. But the first thing that should be asked of them would be if they tried to do nothing, that is to say not to treat other patients ; because otherwise how do you know if it is the remedy or nature that has healed? ” [1] . He will also specify that,“In short, we must leave there all these pretensions of the doctor to be an artist. These are misconceptions that are only good for promoting […] laziness, ignorance and charlatanism. Medicine is a science and not an art. The doctor should aspire only to become a scientist; and it is only in his ignorance, and in the meantime, that he can resign himself to being empirical in a transitory way ” [2] .

    Since then, the experimental method in medicine has been greatly refined. Controlled trials have become the norm and the comparison is not necessarily made with a placebo (no treatment), but with the reference treatment when there is one. An ethical framework precisely defines experimentation in humans (and even, more recently, in animals). The process of publication and peer validation has also progressed significantly, although it has many imperfections.

    https://www.pseudo-sciences.org/Didier-Raoult-contre-la-methode-scientifique

  316. 316
    kairosfocus says:

    RH7, again, fail. The reality is that HCQ based cocktails work, but are bedevilled by an establishment. Placebo gold standard fallacies have long since been exploded. KF

  317. 317
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: One of the arrested in the Whitmer case: https://twitter.com/robbystarbuck/status/1314326553506000897 This is not a Trump supporter. KF

  318. 318
    kairosfocus says:

    OCT 8 MEDICAL RELEASE: >>Since returning home, his physical exam has remained stable and devoid of any indications to suggest progression of illness. Overall he’s responded extremely well to treatment, without evidence on examination of adverse therapeutic effects. Saturday will be day 10 since Thursday’s diagnosis, and based on the trajectory of advanced diagnostics the team has been conducting. I fully anticipate the President’s safe return to public engagements at that time>>

    – Confirms diagnosis was on the Thursday
    – Points to a disease trajectory estimation based on “advanced diagnostics”
    – Indicates good response to treatments without negative problems
    – Points to stability since release with no SIGNS (not merely “symptoms”) of disease progress, i.e. relapse
    – Projects release for “safe return to public engagements” by Saturday, the 10 day point post diagnosis
    – That is, he has survived and recovered, with therapy that arrested progress of the disease; presumably it is his antibodies that finished off the infection (as opposed to outright “cures” that intervene decisively and are responsible for resolving the outcome)
    – Is there now immunity, at least to some strains?

    KF

  319. 319
    ET says:

    Is RHolt off eating crow?

  320. 320
    Mac McTavish says:

    KF

    RH7, again, fail. The reality is that HCQ based cocktails work, but are bedevilled by an establishment. Placebo gold standard fallacies have long since been exploded.

    Translation: RH7, again, fail. The reality is that HCQ based cocktails work, except when placed under the scrutiny of robust scientific examination.

  321. 321
    jerry says:

    One of the interesting phenomena is how information spreads or is suppressed and doesn’t spread. A popular British commentator on C19 is Dr. John Campbell. Not a medical doctor but a doctor of nursing. His videos have millions of views.

    He just had a video on Trump’s medicines and commented generally why each was given. On zinc he was completely unaware of its anti viral properties and discussed it on its effects on the immune system and anti inflammatory properties.

    Before we criticize Campbell too much he came out big time in support of HCQ based on large Belgian study. This shows that people close to the virus in some ways are completely unaware of others who are also close to the virus. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uzXHnUViro

    This shows the phenomena of what is called weak ties vs strong ties. Little new knowledge increases with only strong ties association. It is preaching to the choir.

    Knowledge increases as we are exposed to those we have weak ties with. One aspect of this is the UD site has a small contingent of critics who are not swayed by anything. But the value they have is that they are a window to sources of knowledge that would not be available through the strong ties.

    Their lack of coherent arguments are actually support for many of the ideas espoused here. Because they have strong ties with those critical they are verification of the lack of evidence in many areas.

    Some are already here this morning ready to pounce.

  322. 322
    jerry says:

    The reality is that HCQ based cocktails work, except when placed under the scrutiny of robust scientific examination.

    Absolute nonsense statement. No one here or anywhere has provided anything to undermine HCQ. Especially RHampton. I find that extremely interesting given the resources available.

  323. 323
    ET says:

    Dr. Zelenko’s $200,000 challenge still stands. If science really says HCQ is ineffective that challenge should be over. And yet it isn’t.

  324. 324
    Bob O'H says:

    ET – do you have a link to Zelenko’s challenge?

  325. 325
    jerry says:

    do you have a link to Zelenko’s challenge?

    It wasn’t made by Zelenko. I doubt he has that amount of money. It was made on Twitter. I will see if I can find the actual teeet. The first $100,000 was by a doctor. Then someone offered another $100,000.

  326. 326
    ET says:

    Mac and cheese’s popcorn must have soured. That’s what happens when you can’t read for comprehension, though. 😛

  327. 327
    jerry says:

    Here is the first twitter post by Dr. Urso on reward. https://twitter.com/richardursomd/status/1274871832643067904

    I want one physician in the entire world who used HCQ early, to show me it didn’t work. It doesn’t work for docs who gave toxic doses, fabricated data and never saw pts before sepsis. Oh, and their sorry “scientific” fan club. 100k to anyone to prove me wrong. Retweet that.

    I found a reference/screen shot to the additional $100,000 but not the actual tweet. I believe by a Dr. Sorensen. Urso’s offer was Jun 21 and I believe Sorensen’s offer was July 1 or there about. I first mentioned it here in early July. RHampton thought I personally was making the offer which is one of the many reasons why I don’t believe English is his first language.

    Another example of RHampton’s inability to converse in English is above. See comment 36 above. So I am not sure how much he understands on what he publishes.

    Found the second tweet https://twitter.com/EricSor35538099/status/1275099289199546368

    Doctor; I will throw in another US dollars 100,000. So, between you and me, 200,000 dollars for the doctor who can show HCQ wrong. This is going to be fun!

    Urso’s reply

    Appreciate you. Our money will be safe. Keep you updated on any details. HCQ works really well early and for prophylaxis

    Neither mentioned zinc but zinc and Zelenko became associated with it shortly after in the tweets I saw.

  328. 328
    Mac McTavish says:

    Has this $200,000 been placed in trust? The internet is full of loons betting $5,000 here and $10,000 there to provide proof of something, to disprove something or to win a debate. Nobody takes these idiots seriously.

  329. 329
    ET says:

    Looks like mac and cheese is a full-fledged coward. It seems to me that only cowards would refuse to put their money where their mouth is. The internet is full of those cowards. Cowards who hide in their basement and run their mouths because there aren’t any consequences. Cowards who eat crow and think it’s popcorn. No one takes those cowards seriously. They are entertaining though. Substance-free but still entertaining.

  330. 330
    Mac McTavish says:

    ET

    Looks like mac and cheese is a full-fledged coward. It seems to me that only cowards would refuse to put their money where their mouth is. The internet is full of those cowards. Cowards who hide in their basement and run their mouths because there aren’t any consequences. Cowards who eat crow and think it’s popcorn. No one takes those cowards seriously. They are entertaining though. Substance-free but still entertaining.

    Looks like I might have hit too close to home with my comment that the internet is full of idiots who are placing un-collectable bets on one thing or another. 🙂

    My question still stands. Has the $200,000 been placed in trust? Or is it just empty gesturing?

  331. 331
    jerry says:

    the internet is full of idiots

    One of the two idiots is a medical doctor that discovered OXERVATE , a recombinant human nerve growth factor that supports corneal innervation and integrity.

    The other idiot does not identify what he does.

    They did not put the money in trust but my guess is that they knew this would be useless since there was already good proof that HCQ works. So you could not possibly show it was not effective. But it would be enticing to show these people up if they didn’t pay. Besides much more would be coming from other sources for such a proof. Such a proof is literally worth tens of billion dollars to big Pharma.

    The anti-HCQ community has tried fake studies and lies to show HCQ didn’t work but got caught. There is also the possibility of bribes as researchers and bureaucrats have failed to identify money they or their organizations have gotten.

    No one on the planet can point to anything legitimate to show HCQ doesn’t work even with hundreds of billions at stake. If anything the fake studies are an admission it works. Why would they go such lengths to show an obscure drug worthless? One does not create a massive fake study in Lancet for ones health.

    But there are plenty of idiots/frauds still trying. And then there are the idiots that believe in these corrupt frauds.

    I have to give you credit. You have a way of getting at the truth.

  332. 332
    ET says:

    Wrong again, mac and cheese. All you have done did is further expose yourself as the cowardly insipid troll that you are. That you have a problem with people putting their money where their mouth is further proves that you lack a spine and you don’t have any integrity. You are one of those cowards who just sits back hurling nonsense and lies without fear of repercussion. Congratulations on that.

  333. 333
    rhampton7 says:

    “We started working [with it] in April, the Health Ministry had just approved the guidelines for using hydroxychloroquine as an antiviral agent. There were works that showed that it could be effective — weak evidence, but nothing else,” explains Darya Kamyshova, a clinical pharmacologist from Moscow’s Pirogov Center. According to her, treating patients with hydroxychloroquine yielded few visible results; when research data later revealed that “the drug was most likely ineffective” she “wasn’t surprised.” But not everyone at her hospital was willing to give up on medication right away. “It’s difficult for a doctor to resist the desire to treat, even if essentially there aren’t any suitable medications,” she says.

    FMBA director and former health minister Veronika Skvortsova has repeatedly referred to mefloquine as an effective treatment for COVID-19. “It completely suppresses the virus in 48 hours and reduces its effects by 75 percent when taken preventatively,” she said in May.

    You have to understand that we, as an association, never get involved in treatment issues. But here we even wrote to the Health Ministry, because we couldn’t stand it: on April 10, the FMBA published a loud statement that they had proven the antiviral properties of mefloquine against the COVID-19 pathogen. It turned out that they meant the laboratory tests and the effects of the drug on cell cultures in vitro,” Zavidova explains.

    Meduza spoke to several doctors from Moscow and other regions about the use of this drug. On condition of anonymity, doctors from Barnaul, Krasnodar, St. Petersburg, and Nizhny Novgorod told Meduza they’ve never used mefloquine to treat COVID-19. It wasn’t used very actively in Moscow hospitals either.

    Asked about mefloquine, clinical pharmacologist Darya Kamyshova tells Meduza that her hospital has never used it to treat the coronavirus, adding that using it seems like a “dubious idea.” On top of the lack of research on the drugs effects on COVID-19, Kamyshova warns of its range of side effects, “including the development of serious neurological disorders.” The chief physicians from two of Moscow’s main coronavirus hospitals — the O.M. Filatov Hospital and the I.V. Davidovsky Hospital — also confirmed that they aren’t using mefloquine to treat patients with COVID-19.

    FMBA spokeswoman Anna Sprogis didn’t respond to Meduza’s questions when contacted via messenger.

    https://meduza.io/en/feature/2020/10/09/we-don-t-know-how-to-treat-this

  334. 334
    Mac McTavish says:

    “A federal judge issued an order Friday night barring enforcement of Gov. Greg Abbott’s Oct. 1 proclamation that limited counties to one mail-in ballot drop-off location.”

    https://www.statesman.com/news/20201009/us-judge-blocks-abbott-order-limiting-ballot-drop-off-locations

  335. 335
    kairosfocus says:

    Folks, keep tone within reason please. KF

  336. 336
    kairosfocus says:

    MMT, mislocated, this thread is about in the main, the ongoing HCQ case with Mr Trump. KF

  337. 337
    kairosfocus says:

    U/D: It seems Mr Trump himself has remarked on his condition in a discussion with Fox News:

    President Donald Trump said Friday that he was “medication-free” after being treated for the coronavirus for the past week.

    “Right now I’m medication free – not taking any medications as of probably eight hours,” Trump said. “I am medication free, which frankly makes me feel good. I don’t like medication.”

    The president spoke about his experience with the coronavirus in an interview with Fox News contributor Dr. Mark Seigel on Friday that was aired on Tucker Carlson Tonight.

    The president said he currently felt “really good” and “really, really strong” after fighting the virus for over a week.

    He said that he was feeling weakness before he went to Walter Reed Military hospital on Friday after testing positive for the virus on Thursday.

    Trump said that the doctors discovered some congestion in his lungs and that he was tired and lacked his customary energy.

    “I just think that it was just, you were tired. It was just getting to you from the standpoint, you didn’t have the same energy level,” he said. “My life is based a little bit on energy, and you didn’t have it.”

    He said that the scans of his lungs initially had some congestion but that they had improved.

    Trump again praised the antibody cocktail transfusion developed by Regeneron as helping him improve rapidly at the hospital.

    Developing.

    That suggests Fri Morning was last dose, so we await results of tests:

    The president said that he had been tested again for the virus on Friday.

    “I have been retested and I haven’t even found out numbers or anything yet, but I’ve been retested, and I know that I’m at either the bottom of the scale or free.”

    (Sounds like that is not the quick version.)

    Again, developing.

    KF

    o/N: Vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8dGSyHnGF0&feature=youtu.be

  338. 338
    jerry says:

    A Blessing in Disguise

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mR52Cg__xYM&feature=youtu.be

    An unusual take on Donald Trump’s brush with C19

    Big Pharma will love what he proposes. Should you bet the ranch on Gilead and Regeneron?

  339. 339
    jerry says:

    1700 out of 1700 success with HCQ, zinc and Azithromycin.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fe1TqxvXKTs&feature=emb_logo

    Doctor in Southern California near Mexican border discusses his experiences with treating C19. Of course critics will say irrelevant since not a RCT.

    Interesting is that fever was not a common symptom.

    Other doctors were doing the same treatment but most stopped after Lancet study and FDA pulled emergency use authorization. State sent threatening letters for using HCQ.

    So how many died in US because of bogus anti HCQ studies and fake news stories? We have cheer leaders here for the fake studies and fake news.

  340. 340
    rhampton7 says:

    Doctors record an increase in patient inquiries for an experimental Covid-19 vaccine combination after Donald Trump dubbed the Regeneron Pharmaceuticals vaccine “God’s gift” which is a “cure” for the virus.

    Two physicians participating in the clinical trial told Reuters that more patients were asked to enroll in the drug trials, while medical experts pointed out that the drug, Regn-Cov2, was already too early in the trial cycle to confirm that it could assist with the treatment of Covid-19.

    Regeneron’s shares and the shares of Eli Lilly, another pharmaceutical firm performing anti-body drug research, grew Thursday after Trump confirmed treatment.

    Although Trump said that “hundreds of thousands” of doses were available for use, Regeneron said that it only had enough doses for 50,000 patients and will provide enough for 300,000 patients in the coming months. The organization announced that 275 patients enrolled in the first phase of the clinical trial.

    https://foxexclusive.com/13006/demand-surges-for-regeneron-drug-that-trump-claims-cures-covid-19/

  341. 341
    rhampton7 says:

    Vaccine expert Paul Offit talks with Medscape’s Eric Topol on the pitfalls and promise of COVID ‘Operation Warp Speed’

    Topol: Well, that gets me to our friend Anthony (Tony) Fauci, who was on CNN recently talking about the possibility of an imminent emergency use authorization (EUA) for a vaccine prior to a phase 3 trial completion.

    Tony basically said that he trusts the FDA, that they will make the right decision. My concern is that they just grandstanded about convalescent plasma, and prior to that they issued an EUA for hydroxychloroquine, which they had to revoke. And the data, obviously, hadn’t supported either of those.

    Why would we have any sense of trust that the FDA won’t make the call on a vaccine before a phase 3 trial is completed? We don’t exactly have a consistent, reliable, science- and evidence-based story from the FDA since this pandemic started.

    Offit: I think you’re right. Hydroxychloroquine should have never been given an EUA. There was no evidence to show that it worked. We certainly knew even early on that it could cause cardiac toxicity arrhythmias. That was a mistake, and it was withdrawn.

    I feel the same way about convalescent plasma. I think that should have never been approved. I mean, those data certainly don’t support its use. Both Drs Collins and Fauci had, before that EUA was granted, said they didn’t think the information is there to support it. Since the EUA was granted, the NIH put out a paper saying they don’t think it works.

    https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2020/10/05/video-vaccine-expert-paul-offit-talks-with-medscapes-eric-topol-on-the-pitfalls-and-promise-of-covid-operation-warp-speed/

  342. 342
  343. 343
    jerry says:

    LOL

    RHampton quotes two new liars, Paul Offit and Eric Topol who along with Fauci and Francis Collins make a total of four high level medical people who are liars. All in one comment. Each should know the evidence against HCQ is bogus.

    Why are these people lying? What is the motivation? Why should anyone believe anything these people are saying? Why does RHampton continue to post fake news?

  344. 344
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: Per latest WH Physician statement, Mr Trump meets CDC standards to close off isolation, has no indication of active viral particles, has had steadily increasing Ct metric [essentially an index of viral load by number of doublings to cross detection threshold in a PCR chain,] indicating progressive defeat of the virus. Apparently the regeneron antibodies will be at work for up to four months. He is released to the public, then, and is to hold a rally in FL Monday evening. In related developments Mrs Barrett is to go before the Senate the same day. The WH Press Secretary’s Twitter stream has a long list of endorsements. KF

  345. 345
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: Per a battery of tests and criteria (incl. CDC), the WH Physician confirms Mr Trump is not infectious, is negative for CV19 and is by implication released from due restrictions https://twitter.com/PressSec/status/13157642 17249771526 Did he do the FL Rally last evening? KF

  346. 346
    jerry says:

    The Swamp kills big time. Like Fauci, the FDA lies about HCQ

    FDA Can Provide No Justification for Warnings on Hydroxychloroquine

    This reply cites no studies or data demonstrating harmful effects in outpatients receiving HCQ or CQ for COVID under a doctor’s supervision.

    Table 1 in the letter lists 22 studies, at least six of which were in hospitalized patients, and the majority of which showed a favorable effect.

    There is a growing list of more than 130 studies summarized on the website c19study.com. Most show a favorable effect. Of studies of early treatment, 100 percent show a favorable effect, with a median improvement of 64 percent. Of late studies, 63 percent were positive, with a median improvement of 26 percent.

    https://aapsonline.org/fda-can-provide-no-justification-for-warnings-on-hydroxychloroquine/

    Yes, the US has done a lousy job on C19 but it is the swamp creatures who are responsible not Trump. The FDA, CDC and Fauci are the principles mainly to cause for the deaths. It is similar in other countries as well.

  347. 347
    jerry says:

    A go to site on C19 is Gummi Bear. On Fauci

    My Fauci Deep Dive

    America’s most famous public health expert:
    -Exalted deity to some
    -Embodiment of evil to others

    What’s the truth?

    It’s complicated…

    It starts slow, but boy does it get good

    https://twitter.com/gummibear737/status/1315365796181356550

    What are Fauci’s motives. You can learn by what his agency spends money on. It’s big time money.

  348. 348
    rhampton7 says:

    majority of Americans on both the right and left believe unproven or debunked conspiracy theories, according to a joint survey published by the Center For American Progress and the American Enterprise Institute’s Survey Center on American Life, some of which are extremely pertinent to the ongoing pandemic and bitterly contested election.

    * Republicans are more likely than Democrats to have incorrect beliefs about Covid-19, with 48% saying the coronavirus is no worse than the average flu compared to 25% or Democrats.

    * Forty-two percent of Republicans think hydroxychloroquine, once touted by Trump, is an effective treatment for coronavirus, compared to only 5% of Democrats — research has shown it to be ineffective.

    * Less than half of Americans, and only one in five black Americans, say they would get a free FDA-approved vaccine for COVID-19.
    Americans are reticent to get a COVID-19 vaccine because of concerns about its safety. Among those who would not get a vaccine, nearly two-thirds (65 percent) say concerns about safety is the primary reason.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/danielcassady/2020/10/13/in-an-election-season-rampant-with-mistrust-both-democrats-and-republicans-fall-for-conspiracy-theories/

    also

    https://www.aei.org/research-products/report/conspiracy-theories-misinformation-covid-19-and-the-2020-election/

  349. 349
    rhampton7 says:

    People with weak arithmetic-solving ability are more susceptible to believing in misinformation regarding coronavirus, a survey conducted across five countries has revealed. Speaking on the interesting findings from the study, Cambridge University said the results suggest that wrong information or ‘fake news’ surrounding the virus and the pandemic can thus be curtailed if the analytical abilities of people are improved, a report with the Guardian said.

    The survey was conducted in Ireland, Spain, Mexico, the US and the UK. The respondents were made to sit through three sets of tests to understand the kind of information they retain, which resulted in the researchers to come to the conclusion that the most common factor which made made people susceptible to believing misinformation regarding Covid-19 was lesser numerical literacy, which essentially is the ability to rein in and apply quantitative information broadly.

    Those who participated in the survey were given nine statements to assess, some of which were true and some falselik, e the one about 5G mobile phone users were more at risk of contracting Covid-19 to some true statements as well, such as people with diabetes are at higher risk of complications from coronavirus, among others.

    They were also enquired about what they thought of risk arising out of Covid-19 and the chances of them getting vaccinated whenever the same becomes available.

    The researchers found that higher susceptibility to fake news was related to lower self-reported compliance with public health rules for Covid-19 along with people’s willingness to get vaccinated.

    https://www.news18.com/news/buzz/weak-math-skills-make-people-more-susceptible-to-misinformation-about-coronavirus-and-its-vaccine-2963636.html

  350. 350
    rhampton7 says:

    Didier Raoult has “moved away from his scientific rigor”, according to doctor Marina Carrère d’Encausse

    The doctor Marine Carrère d’Encausse said she did not understand why Didier Raoult has “moved away from his scientific rigor” since the start of the coronavirus health crisis. Interviewed Tuesday, October 13 on Europe 1, the writer, familiar with the work of the scientist without having ever met him, explained that she had been following her studies since the start of her own career.

    Marina Carrère d’Encausse does not know the Marseille professor personally, but she has been following his work closely since the start of her medical studies. “He still has a very important medical background”, she explained to the speakers of Europe 1. “He is a man of studies, a man who spends his time doing scientific studies and who has always been very rigorous. ”

    It is for these reasons that she claims not to understand her attitude since March. “How he did to talk about drugs whose studies were not scientifically validated, I do not understand”, insisted the doctor, specifying that all the statements and studies made so far “do not judge the effectiveness at all of the drug [hydroxychloroquine]. ”

    https://www.estrepublicain.fr/sante/2020/10/14/didier-raoult-s-est-eloigne-de-sa-rigueur-scientifique-selon-la-medecin-marina-carrere-d-encausse

  351. 351
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: Mrs Melania Trump, on her CV19 bout of illness, https://www.whitehouse.gov/articles/first-lady-melania-trump-personal-experience-covid-19/ .

    She reports, Barron did not catch the disease at first but then came down with it (but was asymptomatic) and, contrary to what one would readily assume, her treatment was significantly different from her husband’s. She reports:

    I was very fortunate as my diagnosis came with minimal symptoms, though they hit me all at once and it seemed to be a roller coaster of symptoms in the days after. I experienced body aches, a cough and headaches, and felt extremely tired most of the time. I chose to go a more natural route in terms of medicine, opting more for vitamins and healthy food. We had wonderful caretakers around us and we will be forever grateful for the medical care and professional discretion we received from Dr. Conley and his team. It was an unfamiliar feeling for me to be the patient instead of a person trying to encourage our nation to stay healthy and safe. It was me being taken care of now, and getting first-hand experience with all that COVID-19 can do. As the patient, and the person benefitting from so much medical support, I found myself even more grateful and in awe of caretakers and first responders everywhere. To the medical staff and the residence staff who have been taking care of our family—thank you doesn’t say enough.

    She goes on to reach out to those facing the illness and caregivers. She returns to health issues:

    I encourage everyone to continue to live the healthiest life they can. A balanced diet, fresh air, and vitamins really are vital to keep our bodies healthy. For your complete well-being, compassion and humility are just as important in keeping our minds strong. For me personally, the most impactful part of my recovery was the opportunity to reflect on many things—family, friendships, my work, and staying true to who you are.

    I am happy to report that I have tested negative and hope to resume my duties as soon as I can. Along with this good news, I want people to know that I understand just how fortunate my family is to have received the kind of care that we did. If you are sick, or if you have a loved one who is sick—I am thinking of you and will be thinking of you every day. I pray for our country and I pray for everyone who is grappling with COVID-19 and any other illnesses or challenges.

    A different approach, a different perspective.

    KF

  352. 352
    kairosfocus says:

    RH7, the balance of valid evidence — as opposed to gold standard fallacy biases — strongly indicates efficacy of HCQ-based cocktails and that of ivermectin. Similarly, as I contemplate the return of tourism and the need for kids to be back in school [40 – 70% failing in TX is sending a message on challenges], I see the tragedy of the credibility kill on alternative testing that would detect at a threshold relevant to disease, at 1/100th the cost, far quicker than the dominant PCR based tests. Medical-pharmacological power games have sobering consequences. KF

  353. 353
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: A Danish study suggests people with A, B, AB blood types may be prone to worse complications and risk of organ damage than those with O. See https://www.upi.com/Health_News/2020/10/14/Blood-type-may-predict-risk-for-severe-COVID-19-studies-say/5361602693300/ KF

  354. 354
    jerry says:

    RHampton searches the internet for more fake news about HCQ. But reveals that Republicans are more based in science and Democrats are completely devoid of science based beliefs. Observations we have observed here.

    Forty-two percent of Republicans think hydroxychloroquine, once touted by Trump, is an effective treatment for coronavirus, compared to only 5% of Democrats — research has shown it to be ineffective.

    Research has shown just the opposite. HCQ is effective, just the opposite of almost every recent RHampton post as nearly all the studies shows it has a very positive effect. Only the bogus studies have shown it hasn’t been effective. https://c19study.com/

    137 HCQ studies 80 peer reviewed

    Early treatment of COVID-19 with HCQ shows high efficacy

    All for the world to see except for the willfully blind.

    More interesting question: what drives someone to continually post fake news stories? No one could actually believe them?

  355. 355
    ET says:

    OK great. Let’s hope the democrats who get covid-19 reject the use of the HCQ cocktail to cure them.

  356. 356
    Mac McTavish says:

    KF

    RH7, the balance of valid evidence — as opposed to gold standard fallacy biases

    Randomized control clinical trials are considered the “Gold Standard” for a reason. They are good at separating observational bias from true efficacy. And based on numerous clinical trials performed at various stages of infection, HCQ does not have any measurable benefit.

  357. 357
    jerry says:

    And based on numerous clinical trials performed at various stages of infection, HCQ does not have any measurable benefit.

    More nonsense. You can not back up anything you say nor can RHampton. You just quote fake news.

  358. 358
    ET says:

    Mac and cheese:

    And based on numerous clinical trials performed at various stages of infection, HCQ does not have any measurable benefit.

    And yet no one has been able to collect that $200,000. That alone is very telling.

  359. 359
    jerry says:

    Here is an attempt to describe how the virus affects humans.

    First, it enters the body usually through breathing in virus particles in the air that are free floating or in small droplets of moisture. So if one avoids this one will not get infected. Except the virus will not disappear and avoiding the virus forever is a fool’s perspective.

    Second, if the virus enters the body, it will eventually enter a cell or multiple cells. The virus cannot replicate except using a host’s cellular processes. The C19 virus mainly use the ACE2 receptor to enter a cell but I believe there are other pathways into the cell. So drugs or treatments that frustrates this path of entry will prevent the virus from accessing the cellular machinery for replicating. HCQ is thought to do this so it it does it prevents the virus from multiplying. Other drugs/treatments may do the same thing. Ivermectin is thought to be one but there are others.

    Third, the virus will start replicating in a cell or millions of cells. A human has several trillion cells. Zinc is thought to prevent this replicating and so does Remdesivir. The issue is how to get zinc or other anti-replicating treatments into the cell. HCQ is thought to facilitate entrance of zinc into the cell and as such a facilitator is called an ionophore for zinc. Quercetin and other supplements are also thought to be zinc ionophores.

    Fourth, the immune system is thought to actually kill live viruses but takes time to do so. This means that the virus will spread inside a cell and to other cells before the immune system can overcome the virus. The ability of the immune system to do this quickly depends on the over all strength of it. So individuals with weak immune systems will take much longer to kill virus and for some it may never completely do so. Older people often have less developed immune systems so many are less able to fight the disease. Eating right, having less body mass, having less other conditions that weaken the immune system are thought helpful for a strong immune system. So is vitamins C and D thought to be very helpful.

    Fifth, those with weak immune systems will take much longer to fight off the virus which means they will have exponentially more virus remnants in the body. The immune system seeing all these remnants goes into over drive and produces an overreaction called a cytokine storm that kill the individual. Treating the patient at this point with anti viral approaches is useless. So HCQ at this stage is pointless.

    This is where most of the anti HCQ studies have been done. Which means they are bogus studies. Evaluating a drug when it can do little positive good is a bogus study.

    It is thought some types of steroids are effective against the cytokine storm.

    Sixth, the entry of the cell via the ACE2 receptors cause other problems that lead to death.

    More later

  360. 360
    Mac McTavish says:

    Jerry

    More nonsense. You can not back up anything you say nor can RHampton. You just quote fake news.

    There have been numerous links to clinical trials included in comments on this web site.

  361. 361
    kairosfocus says:

    MMT, nothing out there overturns the evidence of effectiveness of HCT based coscktails and ivermectin. KF

  362. 362
    kairosfocus says:

    NEW DEVELOPMENT: It seems a staffer for Ms Harris has gone positive. Trust things don’t go where they can go with that monster, SARS2. KF

  363. 363
    jerry says:

    There have been numerous links to clinical trials included in comments on this web site.

    All. bogus studies (irrelevant or mis-characterized.) Why don’t you point to one?

    Some help for you. Comprehensive list. https://c19study.com/

  364. 364
    rhampton7 says:

    Peru’s government has been forced to back down in a dispute over its list of officially recommended COVID-19 treatments after a study revealed the medicines might be killing patients.

    Despite scarce research, the Health Ministry in the badly hit South American nation has for months been encouraging doctors to administer hydroxychloroquine — the antimalarial once touted by U.S. President Donald Trump as a coronavirus miracle cure — along with antibiotic azithromycin to those hospitalized with the disease.

    But a new study by the ministry’s medical research agency, IETSI, has found that patients given the two drugs together after being admitted to hospital had a 49% higher risk of ending up in intensive care, a 70% higher risk of needing oxygen and an 84% higher risk of dying. The research involved 5,683 patients.

    The initial response of the administration of President Martin Vizcarra was to fire the head of IETSI, Patricia Pimentel, supposedly for breaching research guidelines by publishing the study before it could be reviewed by Health Ministry officials.

    Asked about the sacking, Vizcarra this week said: “We all know this is a new disease. At the moment, there is no exact science to know what the treatment is.”

    But a few hours later his administration caved, abruptly announcing on Tuesday that public hospitals would no longer administer the two drugs to coronavirus inpatients. It will, however still recommend their use for outpatients and refused to reinstate Pimentel.

    https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3gmmg/country-with-highest-covid-death-rate-has-been-using-a-dangerous-stone-age-treatment

  365. 365
    rhampton7 says:

    First lady Melania Trump said in a White House letter on Wednesday that she recovered from the coronavirus through “a more natural route” of “vitamins and healthy food.”

    There’s extensive evidence linking a vitamin D deficiency to a greater risk of infection, particularly from respiratory diseases like COVID-19, though researchers don’t fully understand whether vitamin D supplements can lead to better health outcomes.

    Dr. Anthony Fauci, the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, has recommended taking vitamin D and said in September that he did so himself.

    Two other nutrients have an important role in immune-system health but have not been found to treat or prevent COVID-19.

    Getting enough vitamin C is crucial for a healthy immune system. While it can’t prevent disease, there’s some evidence that it might help people recover more quickly from illnesses such as the common cold.

    There’s also some evidence that zinc, a mineral necessary for human health, might help shorten the duration of some infections such as the common cold. Research indicates that it’s important for immune-system health generally. But no studies have found that zinc can treat or improve outcomes in patients with COVID-19.

    Eating healthfully can help protect against some conditions — such as Type 2 diabetes, obesity, heart disease, and high blood pressure — that have been linked to a higher risk of developing a serious case of COVID-19.

    However, there’s no evidence that diet alone can stave off the illness or help to treat it if you do get sick.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/melanie-trump-used-vitamins-health-food-to-treat-coronavirus-2020-10

  366. 366
    rhampton7 says:

    Two studies published Wednesday suggest that people with blood type O may have a reduced chance of catching the coronavirus and may have less severe infections thereafter. The reasons why this may be so is still unknown:

    A Danish study found that among 7,422 people who tested positive for Covid-19, only 38.4% were blood type O — even though, among a group of 2.2 million people who were not tested, that blood type made up 41.7% of the population.

    By contrast, 44.4% of group A tested positive, while in the wider Danish population that blood type makes up 42.4%…

    They found that blood group wasn’t a risk factor for hospitalization or death from Covid-19.

    Dr. Roy Silverstein from the Medical College of Wisconsin told NBC News the difference isn’t that large:

    “The study suggests if you have type O, you have a slightly lower risk,” Dr. Roy Silverstein, chair of medicine at the Medical College of Wisconsin, said. “But it’s a small decrease,” he said, adding that blood type does not equate to zero percent risk. Silverstein, who is also a former president of the American Society of Hematology, was not involved with the new studies.

    What’s more, Silverstein pointed out, the new research will not alter how doctors treat Covid-19 patients.

    A second, smaller study out of Canada looked at the severity of the infection and how that correlated with blood type:

    Researchers in Canada found that among 95 patients critically ill with Covid-19, a higher proportion with blood type A or AB — 84% — required mechanical ventilation compared with patients with blood group O or B, which was 61%.

    The Canadian study also found those with blood type A or AB had a longer stay in the intensive care unit, a median of 13.5 days, compared with those with blood group O or B, who had a median of nine days.

    https://hotair.com/archives/john-s-2/2020/10/15/studies-suggest-people-certain-blood-types-less-likely-get-covid-19-less-severe-infections/

  367. 367
    ET says:

    Until we resolve the rampant vitamin and mineral deficiencies throughout human populations, we really don’t have much of a chance at beating back viruses. Not without an effective vaccine, anyway.

    Vitamin D- 4000 IU/ day max – looking for a blood concentration of 40 nG/ mL
    Liposomal vitamin C- 500 mG/ twice a day (liposomal C is alleged to be better than even IV C)
    Zinc- Dose @ 50-75mG/ day, then to 30-50mG after a month
    Most likely people will also be low on the B’s
    Quercetin if you are at risk, front line or have been exposed. Melatonin helps prevent the inflammation associated with the infection by suppressing cytokine production. It also increases T cells. See the EVMS guide for more information and details.

    Resolving our vitamin and mineral deficiencies will easily tame covid-19. That’s why it’s been so entertaining watching the madness that has ensued in 2020.

  368. 368
    kairosfocus says:

    RH7, when a valid but limited and too often ethically challenged experimental design — placebo controls — is turned into a gold standard and used to dismiss other relevant evidence, it becomes a fallacy. This has been amply documented for many months. Your unresponsiveness only manages to show how pernicious the fallacy is. KF

  369. 369
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: UK’s Daily Mail:

    >>Seattle man becomes the THIRD American to be reinfected with coronavirus after testing positive for COVID-19 twice within 5 months

    A Seattle nursing home resident in his 60s first tested positive for the coronavirus on March 6
    He was hospitalized for 40 days with severe symptoms such as fever, chills, cough, chest pain and difficulty breathing
    Five months later, after having moved to a different facility, he began experiencing mild symptoms again
    He was sent to the ER on July 29, where he tested positive for COVID-19 for a second time
    Genetic testing revealed the first strain was similar to the one that originated in Wuhan and the second variant came to the US from Europe

    By Mary Kekatos Senior Health Reporter For Dailymail.com

    Published: 20:16 BST, 15 October 2020 | Updated: 23:48 BST, 15 October 2020 >>

    There is a suggestion that antibodies from round 1 made round 2 less intense.

    KF

  370. 370
    jerry says:

    Couple comments:

    Seattle man becomes the THIRD American to be reinfected with coronavirus after testing positive for COVID-19 twice

    There have been over 8 million C19 cases in the US so 3 getting reinfected is pretty much proof that it doesn’t reinfect. I expected much higher and we may get them.

    How many people get frequent colds? A lot. What are the chances the virus is similar each time? We don’t know but it will probably be explored in the near future. My guess is that some will start investigating the virus strand that is causing cold outbreaks as well as flu and viruses like C19.

    Second, I just bought what looks like an interesting book on science.

    The Knowledge Machine: How Irrationality Created Modern Science

    The Knowledge Machine revolutionizes our understanding of the origins and structure of science.

    I did a search since I bought the Kindle edition. Controlled experiment rates part of one page. The word random as far as doing science did not rate a mention in the book. It did say “repeated experiment” was important but not a randomized controlled experiment.

    Before one complains, I understand the value of a RCT but it is not how science was done or is done exclusively or even predominantly.

  371. 371
    rhampton7 says:

    Four coronavirus drugs were found to have “little or no effect” on hospitalized patients, according to preliminary results from a World Health Organization study.

    Anticipated findings from the WHO’s multi-country Solidarity trial were posted ahead of peer review in medRxiv on Thursday, which assessed remdesivir, hydroxychloroquine, interferon and an HIV-drug combo lopinavir-ritonavir.

    “The main outcomes of mortality, initiation of ventilation and hospitalization duration were not clearly reduced by any study drug,” according to the study.

    While hydroxychloroquine and lopinavir were dropped from the WHO trial over the summer over futility, the remdesivir findings directly contrast with results from a U.S. NIH-led study, which showed to shorten patients’ path to recovery by about four to five days. Those results were recently upheld by a final report, of which John Beigel, associate director of clinical research in the division of microbiology and infectious disease at NIAID, told TIME that “these data reinforce the value of Remdesivir in hospitalized patients.”

    The drug manufacturer of remdesivir, Gilead Sciences, released a statement voicing concerns over the WHO trial.

    The WHO study involved over 11,000 adults across 405 hospitals in 30 countries on multiple treatments tested against a control arm; 2,750 patients were allocated remdesivir. (The NIH study involved 1,062 patients who were randomly assigned remdesivir or a placebo for 10 days.)

    https://www.foxnews.com/health/four-coronavirus-treatments-remdesivir-hydroxychloroquine-flop-who-study

  372. 372
    rhampton7 says:

    Last Saturday, Brazil’s recorded COVID-19 deaths passed the 150,000 mark, seven months after the beginning of the pandemic in the country. The grim milestone was announced by the press consortium created in June by the largest Brazilian newspapers after the government of Brazil’s fascist President Jair Bolsonaro tried to censor data related to the pandemic as part of his government’s homicidal effort to reopen the economy.

    Brazil has now also recorded more than 5 million cases, ranking third in the world in number of coronavirus cases behind the US and India, and second in number of deaths, trailing only the US. The country also ranks third in deaths per million inhabitants, behind Peru and Belgium. However, four of Brazil’s 27 states have a higher mortality rate than Peru, with more than a thousand deaths per million people.

    In reality, the numbers of cases and deaths are grossly underestimated. Brazil has been one of the countries with the least testing in the world throughout the pandemic, with a test rate of less than one per thousand inhabitants, little more than Libya, a country devastated by a decade of war.

    Two health ministers were dismissed by Bolsonaro in April and May for refusing to recommend the use of hydroxychloroquine. In May, then-interim Health Minister Gen. Eduardo Pazuello recommended in a ministry protocol the use of hydroxychloroquine, together with the antibiotic azithromycin, in all adult COVID-19 cases. After Pazuello was finally sworn in on September 15, the newspaper O Estado de S. Paulo reported that the Health Ministry was discussing the distribution of a “COVID-19 kit” through the Popular Pharmacy program. Besides hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin, the kit would contain the fermifuge ivermectin, which also has no proven effectiveness against COVID-19.

    https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/10/17/braz-o17.html

  373. 373
    rhampton7 says:

    RCTs are not used by Science in general, but by medical Science. Social scientists use RCTs too, but that’s a whole different discussion.

    If you want to understand why that is so, read this

    Evolution of Clinical Research: A History Before and Beyond James Lind
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3149409/

  374. 374
    jerry says:

    RCTs are not used by Science in general, but by medical Science

    Yet few medical recommendations are based on RCTs. It’s not that they’re not useful, it’s that it is often impossible to do them right without harm to the participants. In using these tests for C19 some would have to die.

    The RCTs associated with HCQ are all bogus studies because they could not do them correctly. So they used improper situations and bad drug application in their execution making them useless. And they killed people.

    The sad thing is that they knew they were conducting false studies leading to people dying because of the fake results generated. Which leads to the question, WHY?

    And then we get people defending these fake studies that have led to people dying just to make a political point.

  375. 375
    jerry says:

    Some doctors are getting restless in Europe. Downgrading C19 to the flu?

    https://twitter.com/EatlovePray11/status/1316778274983419904

    For the full video, it’s here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3LVHUkVA4A

  376. 376
    rhampton7 says:

    Prove this absurd statement

    “The RCTs associated with HCQ are all bogus studies because they could not do them correctly”

    I have never heard this objection from a medical scientist.

  377. 377
    jerry says:

    Prove this absurd statement

    Easy. If the study was done on hospitalized patients, they are bogus studies. Nearly all the RCTs were done on hospitalized patients. In the study you just referred to above by WHO a large percentage of the patients were given HCQ while on respirators and given lethal doses of the drug. All were hospitalized.

    The ones done on early acquisition were done on the wrong patients, ones likely to recover from the virus without any treatment. So they could not show any effect of HCQ on the virus. They also have several other problems.

    For example, Fauci and others keep on bringing up the Boulware studies which were done remotely on young people and actually show a positive effect for HCQ on their revised criteria.

    I suggest you name a study and we can discuss it.

    One of the problems is finding subjects for a study. It’s easy to get patients after admittance to a hospital but not before. But hospitalized patients already are past the stage of most viral replication and HCQ will have little effect here.

    You and others have been told this several times but you and others persist in ignoring how the virus progresses and affects people.

    I have never heard this objection from a medical scientist.

    I suggest you read links provided for you. We have been providing them since late March, almost 7 months ago.

  378. 378
    kairosfocus says:

    Jerry, though refactored studies RH7 has predictably ignored showed some effect there too. KF

  379. 379
    jerry says:

    Dr. Paul Marek discusses his serendipitous discovery of a potential cure for sepsis. It would never have been approved for treatment of sepsis because those not given it would probably die. Exactly same scenario as for C19. He discusses the discovery and the absurdness of requiring a RCT. Interview from 3 years ago.

    https://bit.ly/2IG9sZx

    Dr. Marik is at the forefront of finding treatments for C19 as he is the author of the treatments at EVMS (Eastern Virginia Medical School.) Will provide more links to him later as he is proposing a completely different approach to treating C19 early called the MATH+ approach.

  380. 380
    jerry says:

    though refactored studies RH7 has predictably ignored showed some effect there too.

    I assume you mean hospitalized studies. Yes, there are even hospitalized studies showing HCQ has a positive effect. All one has to do is go to

    https://c19study.com/

    But I doubt RHampton has done so and I am not sure of his English skills. I believe it is not his first language. For example look at comment #36 where he admits I have refuted him every time. I don’t think he knows what he is writing a lot of the time. He just copies and pastes if he finds a negative article and doesn’t care if it is fake news or not.

    As I have said many times the most interesting thing is not the science but the motivations of the people posting the irrelevant/irrational comments or fake news comments. Why do they continue to do so? Most would be embarrassed to do so.

  381. 381
    Mac McTavish says:

    New Zealland’s Arden wins a landslide election, largely due to her response to COVID-19.

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/17/asia/new-zealand-election-2020-results-intl-hnk/index.html
    All without the use of HCQ.

  382. 382
    jerry says:

    All without the use of HCQ.

    On cue, another irrelevant comment. New Zealand has not gotten rid of the virus or found a way to treat it but that does not stop the non sequiturs. New Zealand just has a whole population waiting to get infected.

    I lived in New Zealand for a year. In Christchurch on the South Island. It is one of the most isolated countries in the world with a very small population.

    And by the way, I in no way believe that HCQ is the only way or the best way to treat the virus. I just find it absurd, the comments from people here claiming it has no effect. As I said above the interesting thing is the continually absurdity of people here who criticize without basis in any fact.

  383. 383
    Mac McTavish says:

    Jerry

    Easy. If the study was done on hospitalized patients, they are bogus studies.

    Most of the retrospective studies that purport to show a benefit of HCQ, including the seminal study, were performed on hospitalized patients. By your own argument, they are bogus.

  384. 384
    jerry says:

    By your own argument, they are bogus.

    Again an irrational comment.

    You prove my point by making such comments. There is a huge difference between arguing against something vs arguing for something. People are using cherry picked hospitalized studies to show negative results or lack of results. That is arguing against. But those who make this argument are ignoring that it does work in several instances. They would have to explain why it does work in many hospitalized cases before they could make the conclusion it does not work. But they don’t. Especially when the studies cited in support of not working are giving lethal doses of HCQ.

    So you cannot argue that HCQ does not work in hospitalized patients because there is no way to know the extent of the viral progression. But you can show that there are studies which show it has an effect even when it is in an extreme condition which then negates the negative conclusion.

    They are two very different logical conclusions and thought processes. You have a background in science and you continue to make these fake logical arguments.

    Hospitalized patients represent a wide range of exposure to the virus and its progression. It is likely a large number of hospitalized patients are past the viral replication phase especially if they have a weak immune system and are into another phase of the infection. It is unlikely HCQ would have much effect here. The issue is the cytokine storm or over reaction of the immune system to dead viral particles.

    For early application which is the recommended time for treatment, it is unlikely the virus has progressed too far. These would be the valid studies if done with people likely to progress further with the virus. But the couple controlled studies done here were extremely flawed, using the wrong patient population and even showed beneficial outcomes for HCQ.

    There will always be individuals who react differently but if the numbers are large enough, the information becomes clear.

    Why do you continue to ignore the obvious? Especially since it is safe and inexpensive. There is no reason not to use HCQ in the right dosages even if it is not effective. But there is study after study showing it has a positive effect. So objections to it become more irrational.

    I have just put on a clean T-shirt and it says

    Two Things are Infinite
    The Universe and Human Stupidity
    And I’m not sure about the Universe

    Albert Einstein

    Comments like yours and posts by RHampton are support for Einstein’s assertion.

  385. 385
    Mac McTavish says:

    Jerry

    Again an irrational comment.

    Really? You were the one who claimed that the RCD trials were bogus because they involved hospitalized patients, not me.

  386. 386
    ET says:

    Mac, your cowardly quote-mining just proves that you are an insipid troll. And the fact that neither you nor anyone else can claim the $200,000 says it all, really.

  387. 387
    jerry says:

    You were the one who claimed that the RCD trials were bogus because they involved hospitalized patients, not me.

    They are bogus in certain situations and thus bogus to argue to certain conclusions. Namely, they are bogus to argue against a treatment and are irrelevant for such an argument. You surely must be able to understand this. I am not arguing against the value of RCTs. I am arguing that the ones used are irrelevant for the conclusion made and thus bogus (they may be also bogus because they are very flawed studies.)

    I am also arguing that RCTs are inappropriate for evaluating a treatment where one part of the test could die. How difficult is it to understand this?

    I am also arguing against these particular RCTs are flawed because they gave potential lethal doses to the patients. If a patient is in extremis, they do not need a potentially lethal dosage of a drug especially when no one is recommending the drug be given in these amounts.

    I could give you things to read and watch but you show no evidence of ever doing so.

    Here is one showing HCQ works in hospital situation for some and discusses the dosage problem. https://bit.ly/2Qv3BqH

    This alone would disprove the proposition that HCQ does not work. But supports an alternative proposition that HCQ works in some cases. So one proposition is proven false and one is supported. The proposition that HCQ does not work is negated over and over. And the studies used to support this propositions also have serious flaws. Just because they are an RCT does not make them a valid or relevant study.

    I suggest all read my comment at 359. It was an attempt to outline what is happening with the virus and done in a parking lot while waiting for my wife to finish her dentist appointment. So it could be better and more complete but it does lay out many of the issues which critics ignore.

  388. 388
    Bob O'H says:

    ET @ 386 – Mac might not be a doctor who has treated patients with COVID-19. That alone would mean he couldn’t claim the money.

  389. 389
    Mac McTavish says:

    Bob

    Mac might not be a doctor who has treated patients with COVID-19.

    But I do play one on TV. 🙂

  390. 390
    rhampton7 says:

    A team of Spanish researchers from Quirón Hospital in Madrid has tested several drugs on 600 patients, including hydroxychloroquine. But it was cyclosporine, a treatment that prevents acute rejection during organ transplants, that had the best effects.
    According to the team at Quirón Hospital in Madrid, cyclosporine would give patients with Covid an “81% more chance of not dying” from the coronavirus. This drug usually used to prevent acute rejection of organ transplants could, according to its authors, “reduce the hyperinflammatory phase of Covid-19”.

    The study published in the journal The Lancet on October 15 analyzed the treatments of 600 patients admitted to the Madrid hospital from March 10 to April 15 and followed until May 12, date of the last event concerning one of these patients. (death or discharge from hospital, this is not specified).

    Several treatments were tested during this period even as Spain was facing a first ultra-violent wave of Covid-19: hydroxychloroquine, antivirals such as Lopinavir-ritonavir, antibiotics, corticosteroids and drugs acting in the inflammatory phase of the disease such as tozilizumab and cyclosporine.

    More impressive results than hydroxychloroquine

    The most surprising result of the study is that the patients who received cyclosporine had a higher survival rate than those who did not.

    Thus, 14% of patients who took cyclosporine died compared to 22% for those who took hydroxychloroquine. Same rate of 22% of deaths for those who were treated with an antiviral. Finally, 28% of patients treated with a corticosteroid died, 33% after treatment with tozilizumab.

    https://www.lindependant.fr/2020/10/17/covid-19-la-cyclosporine-nouveau-medicament-miracle-contre-le-coronavirus-9145915.php

  391. 391
    jerry says:

    Thus, 14% of patients who took cyclosporine died compared to 22% for those who took hydroxychloroquine. Same rate of 22% of deaths for those who were treated with an antiviral. Finally, 28% of patients treated with a corticosteroid died, 33% after treatment with tozilizumab

    Dr. Marik of EVMS said the C19 progresses in two stages. First is a viral replication phase and second is an immune dysfunction stage and happens after the virus is essentially dead in all patients. So using an anti viral after about 13 days is stupid and is counter productive.

    This means all these tests of anti-virals are a waste of time and what will work in the second phase where most people die is treatments to stop the extreme inflammation. The anti-virals are extremely useful when used early because they prevent the movement toward the inflammatory stage.

    So all these hospitalized studies that some keep on quoting are bogus and Dr. Marik says most of these medical people who designed them do not understand the disease they are treating. They are a waste of time and counterproductive in that they mislead doctors on how to treat the disease.

    An example is that Remdesivir has shown zero effectiveness when used late in treatment and the result is just as one would expect. It is meant for the viral replication phase which is long over by this time. Gilead does not tell people this and has gotten a lot of money for this misuse of their drug.

    I’m going to speculate why cyclosporine is effective and I am certainly not a doctor but people should ask medical people about it. It is an immune suppressive drug and the problem while in the hospital is an over active immune system. So it might be a question to ask a doctor knowledgeable in immune responses.

  392. 392
    kairosfocus says:

    Jerry,

    here is a study on hospitalisation cases across drugs including Remdesivir (I note the HCQ alone suggesting non-use of cocktails):

    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.10.15.20209817v1

    Repurposed antiviral drugs for COVID-19; interim WHO SOLIDARITY trial results
    WHO Solidarity Trial Consortium, Hongchao Pan, Richard Peto, Quarraisha Abdool Karim, Marissa Alejandria, Ana Maria Henao Restrepo, Cesar Hernandez Garcia, Marie Paule Kieny, Reza Malekzadeh, Srinivas Murthy, Marie-Pierre Preziosi, Srinath Reddy, Mirta Roses, Vasee Sathiyamoorthy, John-Arne Rottingen, Soumya Swaminathan
    doi: https://doi.org/10.1101/2020.10.15.20209817
    This article is a preprint and has not been certified by peer review [what does this mean?]. It reports new medical research that has yet to be evaluated and so should not be used to guide clinical practice.

    AbstractInfo/HistoryMetrics
    Preview PDF

    Abstract

    BACKGROUND WHO expert groups recommended mortality trials in hospitalized COVID-19 of four re-purposed antiviral drugs. METHODS Study drugs were Remdesivir, Hydroxychloroquine, Lopinavir (fixed-dose combination with Ritonavir) and Interferon-?1a (mainly subcutaneous; initially with Lopinavir, later not). COVID-19 inpatients were randomized equally between whichever study drugs were locally available and open control (up to 5 options: 4 active and local standard-of-care). The intent-to-treat primary analyses are of in-hospital mortality in the 4 pairwise comparisons of each study drug vs its controls (concurrently allocated the same management without that drug, despite availability). Kaplan-Meier 28-day risks are unstratified; log-rank death rate ratios (RRs) are stratified for age and ventilation at entry. RESULTS In 405 hospitals in 30 countries 11,266 adults were randomized, with 2750 allocated Remdesivir, 954 Hydroxychloroquine, 1411 Lopinavir, 651 Interferon plus Lopinavir, 1412 only Interferon, and 4088 no study drug. Compliance was 94-96% midway through treatment, with 2-6% crossover. 1253 deaths were reported (at median day 8, IQR 4-14). Kaplan-Meier 28-day mortality was 12% (39% if already ventilated at randomization, 10% otherwise). Death rate ratios (with 95% CIs and numbers dead/randomized, each drug vs its control) were: Remdesivir RR=0.95 (0.81-1.11, p=0.50; 301/2743 active vs 303/2708 control), Hydroxychloroquine RR=1.19 (0.89-1.59, p=0.23; 104/947 vs 84/906), Lopinavir RR=1.00 (0.79-1.25, p=0.97; 148/1399 vs 146/1372) and Interferon RR=1.16 (0.96-1.39, p=0.11; 243/2050 vs 216/2050). No study drug definitely reduced mortality (in unventilated patients or any other subgroup of entry characteristics), initiation of ventilation or hospitalisation duration. CONCLUSIONS These Remdesivir, Hydroxychloroquine, Lopinavir and Interferon regimens appeared to have little or no effect on hospitalized COVID-19, as indicated by overall mortality, initiation of ventilation and duration of hospital stay. The mortality findings contain most of the randomized evidence on Remdesivir and Interferon, and are consistent with meta-analyses of mortality in all major trials. (Funding: WHO. Registration: ISRCTN83971151, NCT04315948)

    Why is there such extraordinary resistance to recognising that the time to hit a viral disease prone to complications is AS EARLY AS POSSIBLE?

    And given the suspiciously scanty reference to HCQ, as opposed to cocktail, I thing the statistics become even more dubious.

    We are seeing through a window into the deep breakdown of quality of thought.

    Is it any strange thing to see similar patterns across the board, including on say the design inference on tested, reliable signs?

    Widespread sub par reasoning is commonplace.

    KF

  393. 393
    jerry says:

    This is probably TLDR (Too Long Didn’t Read) A repeat with several modifications of the comment at 359 above. This is not meant to be the definitive description of C19 but an attempt to more thoroughly understand the virus and its progression. Anyone who wants to add or clarify something, please do so.
    ————

    This is an attempt to describe how the virus affects humans.

    Background, There are two stages. There is the viral replication stage and then there is the more serious inflammatory stage where there is often immune dysregulation leading to death. See OP at top of page. Within the progression there are different phases, incubation, symptomatic, early pulmonary phase and a late pulmonary phase.

    Essentially people do not die during the first phase. But if they can be prevented from entering the second phase, their life will be normal and go on as usual. If they enter the second phase, they have a substantial chance of dying or if they survive may have long term impairment especially of the respiratory system. As noted below, most especially the young never get to the second phase.

    Treatment should be specific to each stage and within each stage there can be escalation of treatments as necessary. Timing is key for treatment and should be the mantra for anyone wanting to beat this virus. Confusing treatments for one stage with the other stage has been one of the significant medical malpractices of this pandemic. One doctor has said most treating this virus do not understand what is happening within the body.

    FirstThe virus enters the body usually through breathing in small droplets of moisture or virus particles that are free-floating in the air. So if one avoids this one will likely not get infected. Except, there is also suspicion that virus can be picked up by touching objects on which it is present or by eating food in which it may be present. Why are we washing our hands several times a day?

    A Reality, The virus will not disappear and avoiding the virus forever is a fool’s dream. So a question is what to do besides awaiting for the inevitable? Some want to lockdown and wait for a vaccine but that could be long into the future and in the meantime billions of people are experiencing massive deterioration in living conditions. And everyone is leading a far from optimal life. Except maybe the Swedes. And even there they screwed up their treatment of the elderly.

    Very little or nothing has been offered by the medical establishment for prevention or early treatment of this virus. Especially when there are hundreds of success stories for early treatment. A big question is WHY is the medical establishment silent?

    Some are having amazing success in preventing hospitalization and death after entering the hospital. For example, the hospital at the Eastern Virginia Medical School had a 6% mortality rate compared to an average of 24% in the world in July of this year. And they can point to a treatment that they used that most hospitals are still failing to use in October 2020. And there are individual doctors that are having nearly 100% success with treating patients. I can point to one in New York, two in Texas and one in California. Between them they have treated over 4,000 C19 patients with only a couple deaths and a handful of hospitalizations. But they are ignored too.

    Second, Once the virus enters the body, it will eventually enter a cell or multiple cells. The virus cannot replicate except using a host’s cellular processes. The C19 virus mainly uses the ACE2 receptor to enter a cell but I believe there are other pathways into the cell. (Not all cell have these ACE2 receptors but the lung has them and so does the lining of the blood stream as well as many other cell types)

    So drugs or treatments that frustrate this or other paths of entry will prevent the virus from accessing the cellular machinery for replicating. HCQ is thought to do this, so it could be effective by preventing the virus from entering a cell and multiplying. Other drugs/treatments may do the same thing. Ivermectin is thought to be one but there are others.

    Third, the virus will start replicating in a cell and could spread to millions of cells. A human has several trillion cells. Anything that interferes with this replication and is not harmful would prevent the virus from spreading in the body. Zinc is thought to prevent this replication and so apparently does Remdesivir. The issue is how to get zinc or other anti-replicating treatments into the cell. HCQ is thought to facilitate the entrance of zinc into the cell and as such is a facilitator called an ionophore for zinc. Quercetin and other supplements such as EGCg are also thought to be zinc ionophores. How Remdesivir gets into the cell, I do not know.

    The fact that Remdesivir was used by Trump early and has been shown to not be too useful for hospitalized patients may indicate it should be introduced early. It is however very expensive and currently only administered intravenously, making it difficult if not impossible for home consumption.

    Fourth, the immune system is thought to actually kill live viruses but takes time to do so. This means that the virus will spread inside a cell and to other cells before the immune system can overcome the virus. The ability of the immune system to do this quickly depends on its overall strength. So individuals with weak immune systems will take much longer to kill the virus and for some it may be impossible to kill it.

    Research has shown that there are few live virus particles 8-10 days after infection. But up to this time there may be nearly a billion live virus gene copies per mL. So trying to kill the virus after this time is probably a waste of time. But what remains is a large number of virus parts. Giving Remdesivir at this time is dumb but doctors all around the world in ICUs are prescribing it. Gilead is making a fortune off of this misinformation. But as mentioned above, Remdesivir may be useful early on but because it is a 5 day treatment done intravenously can only be done for a few in a hospital.

    Innate Immunity

    One important issue is that some people are thought to possess antibodies and T-cells that produce antibodies quickly to fight corona viruses. Some have estimated that the number of people with such cells and antibodies is over 20% and maybe as high as 50% in some populations. This may be why some populations around the world have showed little susceptibility to the virus. Remember the Diamond Princess where only a handful of elderly people died, even though they were quarantined together in the intimacy of a cruise ship. Did many of the Japanese passengers have immunity to the virus? People who get the virus and clear it also seem to be immune. There have been a handful of people reported to get the virus again but they are only a few out of over a hundred million confirmed cases.

    Some have speculated that this immunity is not forever and may only last a few months. However, there seems to be innate immunities or lack of it in populations for various viruses. The 1918 Influenza hit those born between 1890 and 1900 the hardest with the implications that those from other cohorts had an innate immunity to this virus due to exposure during their early years.

    Many people in the viral replication phase will clear the virus without getting any symptoms and are called asymptomatic. Others get symptoms that are mild and then they disappear. Most people under 60 years of age will fall into these two groups (99.9+%). A small portion of these people will progress to the second stage of the disease. But some age groups are much more vulnerable.

    Older people often have less developed immune systems so many are less able to fight the virus at first. Influenza strikes older people more readily too. This leads to higher loads of the virus in such individuals because the immune system does not kill the virus quickly. This leaves much higher dead remnants of the virus in their bodies. This will be important for the second stage of the disease. Most older people will also not progress to the second stage but a much higher percentage will than those under 60.

    Eating right, having less body mass, having fewer other serious medical conditions that weaken the immune system are thought helpful for a strong immune system. So vitamins C and D are thought to be very helpful as well as other supplements.

    Fifth, those with weak immune systems will take much longer to fight off the virus which means they will have exponentially more virus remnants in the body as mentioned above and are more likely to enter the second stage. The immune system seeing all these remnants does not distinguish between live and dead viruses and goes into overdrive. Actually most if not all of the virus is now dead. But these remnants produces an overreaction called a cytokine storm that starts the pulmonary phase and this is what kills many individuals infected even if the virus is not alive in the person anymore. Treating the patient at this point with antiviral approaches is probably useless but that is what has been done. When these anti-viral approaches do not work, the whole anti-viral approach is denigrated.

    So prescribing HCQ or other anti-virals at this stage is probably pointless. This may explain why many hospital-based studies show little or no benefit for HCQ. It does not mean HCQ will not work on some hospitalized patients but will probably not work very well on those in the later stages of the disease.

    But this is where most of the anti-HCQ studies have been done. Which means they are completely irrelevant for evaluating HCQ’s usefulness early in the virus progression. Evaluating a drug when it is known not to do much good is a pointless and essentially a bogus study.

    It is thought some types of steroids are effective against the cytokine storm. But in reality the treatment recommended by the medical community is still mainly palliative, and depends on the patient being able to withstand the cytokine storm. Though currently most are prescribing these steroids.

    The Eastern Virginia Medical School favors the steroid Methylprednisolone and has research showing it is much more effective than Dexamethasone. The latter got a lot of publicity from a study done at Oxford on late treatment of C19. However there are clinical studies showing Methylprednisolone is much more effective at reducing death, in some up to 75%.

    Sixth, the entry into the cell via the ACE2 receptors causes other problems that lead to death. This entry negates the effect of the ACE2 receptors and leads to coagulant factors being released in the bloodstream, causing clots and heart issues. This has caused a lot of the deaths. Treatment here is completely different since it is treating the coagulation issue. HCQ would have little value for this.

    Conclusion: Timing is Key and Treating Early is Essential

    So what is Effective

    If someone is going to recommend for or against something then it should be based on an understanding of the progression of the disease. Instead we get blanket condemnations without any reference to what is happening at a particular stage of the virus. Such blanket judgments are not helpful for anyone.

    Another takeaway from the published research is that people in the medical community do not understand the disease they are treating. The best example of this the recently published WHO study which administered drugs at the wrong time of the virus progression.

  394. 394
    jerry says:

    Kf,

    The implication of all these studies at high levels are that the medical establishment does not understand the disease. That includes some of my favorite go to people in the medical community. Just yesterday, Dr. John Campbell who has posted nearly a hundred videos on C19 came across zinc as a possibility. He is completely unaware of what is happening in a significant part of the US doctors.

    Dr. Seheult has not posted anything on the origin of the cytokine storm yet and its treatment nor did he pick up that Remdesivir will probably be ineffective at late stages.

    Drbeen (Mobeen Syed M.D, MS ) interviewed Dr. Marik in July and I only heard about it a few days ago. He also interviewed him in September.

    Either a lot of games are being played or a lot of ignorance. Probably a lot of both.

  395. 395
    jerry says:

    An example of medical ignorance leading to bogus conclusions is a study just published from Italy on patients in hospital during March.

    Remdesivir use in patients requiring mechanical ventilation due to COVID-19

    The use of HCQ was not associated with a significant clinical benefit in our cohort. This result was consistent in all the analyses performed. The lack of clinical effect, despite early use of the drug after hospitalization, is discouraging and suggests that the prognosis of patients in IMV is not influenced by HCQ. Notably, the use of HCQ for COVID-19 have relied so far on undemonstrated premises and several observational studies now question its overall efficacy.

    About half of the patients got HCQ only after entering the ICU and is an analysis of patients on invasive mechanical ventilation (IMV)

    Interesting is that Remdesivir was found to have a positive effect.

  396. 396
    ET says:

    Bob O’H:

    Mac might not be a doctor who has treated patients with COVID-19. That alone would mean he couldn’t claim the money.

    Not so. Mac could easily contact doctors who have treated patients with COVID-19 and claim a finder’s fee, if successful.

  397. 397
    jerry says:

    For a contrary opinion

    The unfinished story of hydroxychloroquine in COVID-19: the right anti-inflammatory dose at the right moment?

    https://www.ijidonline.com/article/S1201-9712(20)32236-0/fulltext#back-bib0040

    Here HCQ is of inflammatory value but not as an anti-viral. So does HCQ have different effects at different times and no effects at other times.

    Watch as Dr. Campbell discovers the benefits of zinc completely unaware of its association with HCQ. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIvRR_y5i-k

    This may be behind a paywall. https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-takes-zinc-maybe-you-should-too-11601916665

    Article in WSJ on zinc. My cost for zinc is less than 7 cents per day. Another why not supplement as are Vitamins D and C. Also pennies a day. HCQ is also pennies a day but requires a prescription in the US.

    Everything argues for HCQ usage because it’s safe, inexpensive and according to numerous sources, effective. The perfect drug!!!

  398. 398
    daveS says:

    ET,

    That sounds realistic. Maybe I’ll contact some doctors and see if they want to put their reputations on the line for the sake of an online stunt and give some random dude (me) a cut of the whopping $200,000 prize. 😂

  399. 399
    ET says:

    It’s only an “online stunt” to people too full of BS to try to refute reality.

  400. 400
    rhampton7 says:

    Jerry: “ Here HCQ is of inflammatory value but not as an anti-viral. So does HCQ have different effects at different times and no effects at other times.”

    That’s why there are RCTs.

  401. 401
    rhampton7 says:

    Research on repurposed and new drugs as potential treatments for Covid-19 seem to be driven by “hype” and “anecdotes” rather than “informativeness and social value”, noted an analysis in the British Medical Journal.

    The six authors of the report, titled ‘Producing and using timely comparative evidence on drugs: lessons from clinical trials for covid-19’ and published Friday, cited the case of the drug hydroxychloroquine as an example of ‘hyped’ research.

    Stating that the research agenda “seems to be partly driven by hype and anecdote rather than informativeness and social value, skewing the amount of available data”, the BMJ analysis said, “A disproportionately large number of studies were launched to evaluate the antimalarial drugs hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine phosphate after the publication of a controversial uncontrolled study that received substantial attention.”

    The study by French researchers, with a small sample size of 32 patients, had concluded that hydroxychloroquine “significantly reduced” the viral load. The study was non-randomized and the results were later refuted by the WHO trial.

    https://theprint.in/health/research-on-covid-drugs-driven-by-hype-and-anecdote-not-information-uk-journal-says/526162/

  402. 402
    rhampton7 says:

    Part 2

    The authors of the study — from the London School of Economics and Political Science, University of Oxford, University of Bern in Switzerland, Research Council of Norway and University of Oslo — pointed out that the Covid-19 drugs research has “exposed important flaws and failures in the current evidence ecosystem”.

    The researchers highlighted the limitations in the system for evaluating repurposed or investigational drugs for Covid-19.

    “Firstly, global clinical research activity is fragmented. The drug trials rarely have similar design features…Even when randomised trials evaluate seemingly similar endpoints such as time to clinical recovery, outcome definitions and follow-up durations vary,” they said.

    Studies also do not routinely adopt the gold standard of evaluating treatments.

    “We estimate that fewer than one third of studies evaluating covid-19 therapeutics on ClinicalTrials.gov are randomised controlled trials, which are the gold standard for evaluating treatments. Many studies test investigational agents without a control group, which can be misleading as they provide no data on what would have happened in the absence of the treatment,” the analysis stated.

    The authors called for “greater collaboration among trialists, meta-analysts, and guidance developers to improve the evidence base for new treatments”.

    While data sharing after trial completion is becoming more common, the analysis also highlighted that “data sharing is still not the norm”.

    https://theprint.in/health/research-on-covid-drugs-driven-by-hype-and-anecdote-not-information-uk-journal-says/526162/

  403. 403
    rhampton7 says:

    The malaria drug hydroxychloroquine failed to protect healthcare workers caring for coronavirus disease (COVID-19) patients from becoming infected themselves, according to results of a formal, placebo-controlled trial published on Saturday in Clinical Infectious Diseases.

    The 1,483 participants worked in emergency departments, intensive care units, and other high-risk sites in the United States and the Canadian province of Manitoba.

    They were randomly assigned to receive hydroxychloroquine 400mg, once weekly or twice weekly, for 12 weeks, or a placebo.

    Compared to the risk of infection in the placebo group, the risk was 28% lower with once-weekly hydroxychloroquine and 26% lower with twice-weekly dosing.

    But those differences were not deemed to be statistically significant, meaning they could have been due to chance rather than to the drug.

    The University of Minnesota researchers point out that recruiting participants became difficult after potential adverse heart effects of the drug were publicized, and also that the hydroxychloroquine doses may have been too low.

    “Investigation into more frequent dosing may be warranted,” they said.

    https://www.gmanetwork.com/news/scitech/science/760571/hydroxychloroquine-fails-to-protect-medical-workers-pandemic-increases-need-for-strength-training-by-elde/story/

  404. 404
    jerry says:

    RHampton just presented a study where HCQ had a positive effect. What has happened?

  405. 405
    jerry says:

    The theory is that the C19 virus does not kill many people. What kills most people is the over reaction of the immune system to dead remnants of the virus.

    The immune system sees these remnants and reacts as if they’re a live virus and then goes berserk and creates a cytokine storm that then damages the lungs and other organs.

    Those with weak immune systems take much longer to kill the virus so leave exponentially more virus fragments.

  406. 406
    jerry says:

    Another arrow in the quiver.

    After months of testing, drug Nitazoxanide shows effectiveness in reducing Covid-19 viral load

    Following is a link to English translation of Portuguese from Brazilian news story.

    https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=pt&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.gov.br%2Fpt-br%2Fnoticias%2Fsaude-e-vigilancia-sanitaria%2F2020%2F10%2Fapos-meses-de-testes-medicamento-nitazoxanida-mostra-eficacia-na-reducao-da-carga-viral-da-covid-19&sandbox=1

    New paradigm

    There are two stages to C19

    First stage – viral replication. Quicker the virus is killed the less severe C19 is. Anything that can reduce time to kill virus is paramount. Most will kill virus with current immune system but some with weak immune systems will take much longer leaving exponentially large amounts of viral fragments in body.

    Second stage – inflammation response. The large amount of viral fragments causes the immune system to go into an over reaction and produces what is a cytokine storm. It is the products of the cytokine storm that is killing most people.

    The above is not all by far. People are harmed by the entry of the virus by the ACE2 receptors which reduces the effects of this enzyme and leads to clotting factors being released and causing micro coagulation.

    Probably other effects but it is apparently the cytokine storm that is causing most of the deaths.

    Leads to the obvious conclusion that using anti viral drugs during second stage of C19 is unlikely to be effective. . So evaluating such drugs used at this stage is mal-practice by any medical officials that designed such studies or who comment on them.

    Hello, Dr. Fauci. Are you incompetent or do you have an agenda that causes people to die unnecessarily?

  407. 407
    rhampton7 says:

    An international group of researchers believe there is enough evidence that anti-malarial drugs could be repurposed to treat COVID-19 and that they should be assessed for efficacy in clinical trials. The review article, published online in Trends in Parasitology, outlines the evidence for the antiviral and anti-inflammatory properties of certain anti-malarial drugs that could play a role in tackling COVID-19.

    The research group, from institutions across Europe, Asia and Africa, point to a combination of the drugs artesunate and pyronaridine as the most promising.

    Both drugs have demonstrated antiviral effects on the SARS-CoV-2 virus in human lung cells in laboratory studies and pyronaridine is more potent than hydroxychloroquine in these tests. Artesunate also has anti-inflammatory effects and could work in a similar way to dexamethasone, which has been shown to improve survival in hospitalized COVID-19 patients receiving oxygen. And artesunate use doesn’t incur the same risk of adverse effects as dexamethasone.

    These drugs are both inexpensive and have a well-known safety profile, meaning they could be trialed in symptomatic patients with a confirmed COVID-19 diagnosis with minimal risk. They could also easily be manufactured at scale.

    The review article also acknowledges the risks of overpromising the potential of these drugs and stresses the importance of avoiding the issues and increased attention that surrounded the use of hydroxychloroquine earlier in the year.

    https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-10-anti-malarial-therapies-hydroxychloroquine-covid-.html

  408. 408
    rhampton7 says:

    Facebook users have been sharing a post saying anti-malaria drug hydroxychloroquine prevented a “catastrophic COVID disaster in an Indian slum”. This claim is partly false — the drug was given as a preventive measure to some residents of a densely-populated neighbourhood in Mumbai, but the Indian government, the World Health Organization and officials that Reuters spoke to attributed the success in curbing the spread of the virus in the area to a host of other factors. Studies have also shown that the drug is ineffective against the virus.

    several people involved in the city’s COVID-19 response put the success of the campaign down to large-scale efforts in screening the residents, isolating them and imposing a lockdown on the area to prevent them from leaving the neighbourhood.

    “Hydroxychloroquine was given elsewhere in Mumbai as well, but they did not show the same early success as Dharavi did,” said Kiran Dighavkar, assistant commissioner in Mumbai’s municipality.

    The ‘Dharavi model’ — in which tens of thousands of people were screened on their doorstep and in clinics, and isolated if they displayed symptoms — has received international praise.

    Daksha Khan, deputy health officer at Mumbai municipal body the BMC, told Reuters that “community participation” played a huge role in curtailing the virus’s spread, and that the drug was given only at a clinical level, and not to the entire community.

    According to Health advocacy group Jan Swasthya Abhiyaan’s Amulya Nidhi, Dharavi’s success in containing the virus was due to “collective community participation” and the role of the municipal health workers and local authorities, which carried out early screening and have better healthcare facilities compared to other parts in the country.

    The Indian government has also attributed Dharavi’s success to other factors including surveillance and strict containment measures. It said the Mumbai authorities “actively chased the virus and aggressively conducted targeted tracing of COVID suspects” to reduce the growth rate of the virus (here) .

    This article published by the U.S. National Center of Biotechnology Information (here) cites a number of sources to conclude that Dharavi has shown that virus transmission can be slowed down by “chasing it down, with micro-mapping, robust surveillance, public-private partnership, community engagement, and proactive leadership”.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-dharavi-idUSKBN27526S

  409. 409
    jerry says:

    Amazing!!! Two pro HCQ posts by RHampton in a row.

    In the unending quest to find anti HCQ news all he could find is pro HCQ news.

    There is hope for the world.

  410. 410
    rhampton7 says:

    In a paper recently published in MJA Insight, Professor Martin said it was time to question the assumptions and decisions made internationally in selecting drugs such as hydroxychloroquine for repurposing in COVID-19.

    “With hydroxychloroquine, the proper work hadn’t been done to know what dose to use and when to use it,” she said.

    “It is also a drug that you kind of need to have on board for about six weeks before your levels in your blood are adequate.”

    Professor Martin said the drug would have never usually gotten to clinical trials, as it would have been “weeded out” beforehand due to the side effect profile of the required dose.

    To avoid decisions like this happening again, Professor Martin and her colleagues want to see a national body made up of clinical pharmacologists, physicians, toxicologiosts, epidemiologists, immunologists, infectious disease and public health experts – as well as virologists – working together to design a “priority platform” for Australian research.

    “A team with all of those experts on it would be able to prioritise treatments on a national basis, and that way you are not getting competing trials either. It would be a coordinated, cohesive approach,” she said. “Next time, before we just launch into something because we are in a panic, we really need a national group of clinical pharmacologists and physicians and job development scientists that work in this area to design a strategy for how we are going to study these patients.”

    https://www.newcastleherald.com.au/story/6977030/covid-drug-plugged-by-trump-a-waste-of-precious-time-national-research-plan-needed/

  411. 411
    jerry says:

    Dr. Raoult has struck again with pure logic and evidence. https://bit.ly/3ojNpYG

    Rational for meta-analysis and randomized treatment: the COVID-19 example

    A recent giant review by Cochrane Library (including 1583 meta-analysis covering 228 medical conditions) fails to show any superiority of randomized studies versus observational studies in many healthcare outcomes. It is not established therefore that there are evidence of a superiority of randomized studies. The very existence of meta-analysis highlights that there are discrepancies between the different randomized studies, which proves that these studies did not eliminate biases. Indeed in this journal, as for hydroxychloroquine, it was reported that one meta-analysis demonstrates no effect of hydroxychloroquine on COVID-19 infection and the other the opposite. However, meta-analysis exemplified the role of the sponsor in the biases, as shown by us for probiotics.

    What is and what is not a valid study of a C19 treatment? Most of the studies cited by the main stream medical community do not make the cut. And RCTs may be the worse way to evaluate a treatment since they contain lots of biases designed by the authors. Instead of being bias free, they are designed to be biased. They rarely provide a good basis for making medical decisions.

  412. 412
    rhampton7 says:

    I’ll let Raoult’s comments on RCTs stand. Give him enough rope and he will hang himself

  413. 413
    rhampton7 says:

    BlOcking ACE2 alone isn’t going to stop COVID-19

    Researchers from the Technical University of Munich in Germany and the University of Helsinki in Finland led a study that discovered a receptor called neuropilin-1 gives the novel coronavirus a leg-up in infecting our tissues.
    This particular protein is relatively abundant on cells lining the nasal cavity, making it a piece of cake for the virus to establish a home inside our bodies, raise a virus family, and then spread to a new host.
    Earlier this year it was discovered that a receptor called angiotensin-converting enzyme 2 (ACE2) helps the coronavirus bind to the surface of cells, while an enzyme called Type II transmembrane serine protease (TMPRSS2) is crucial for it gaining entry.

    A crucial piece of the puzzle appeared on comparing the two viral genomes; SARS-CoV-2 had picked up sequences responsible for producing a prickly array of ‘hooks’, not unlike those used by other nasty pathogens to grip onto host tissues.

    “Compared to its older relative, the new coronavirus had acquired an ‘extra piece’ on its surface proteins, which is also found in the spikes of many devastating human viruses, including Ebola, HIV, and highly pathogenic strains of avian influenza, among others,” says Olli Vapalahti, also a virologist from the University of Helsinki.

    “We thought this could lead us to the answer. But how?”

    Consulting with colleagues around the world, the researchers zeroed in on neuropilin-1 as a common factor.

    Typically, this receptor plays a role in responding to growth factors important in tissue development, especially among nerves. But to many viruses, it’s a convenient handle for holding onto host cells long enough to break in.

    https://www.sciencealert.com/a-second-key-used-by-sars-cov-2-to-enter-cells-could-explain-why-it-s-so-infectious

  414. 414
    Mung says:

    oh my. if only everyone had died!

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