Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Eric lets the amoral cat out of the bag: “It may be ‘so what’ to you (and me) that morality is ultimately subjective . . .”

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

It is instructive to see this inadvertently revealing comment on a blog post by Jason Rosenhouse.

But first, let’s remind ourselves of a very important visually made point:

Of Lemmings, marches of folly and cliffs of self-falsifying absurdity . . .
Of Lemmings, marches of folly and cliffs of self-falsifying absurdity . . .

And now:

>>eric April 15, 2015

Of course, you can challenge my definition. You can say that it’s just a product of my own subjective judgment that it’s bad to harm sentient beings. But so what?

I have not read Arrington’s posts, but I would bet that he is exactly going after the subjective vs. objective distinction. There’s been a recent spate of philosophers and/or reasonably prominent atheists trying to propose an objective morality (without the need for a god). I would bet he is going after these ideas.

It may be “so what” to you (and me) that morality is ultimately subjective, but many people find that thought upsetting. Arrington is pushing on that discomfort to gain converts for theism. He’s proselytizing: design will give you laypeople back that foundation for objective morality you want so badly, so (this part is implied and rarely stated) therefore you should believe in design.>>

In short, we are right back to an indifferent shoulder-shrug to the longstanding (cf. Plato in The Laws Bk X, c 360 BC) implication of evolutionary materialism, that might and manipulation make ‘right.’ (So, it’s just a matter of who has more might and who is cleverer at manipulating the opinions — and, especially the emotions — of the sheeple who think that we are under objective moral government of OUGHT. Who actually imagine they have real unalienable rights, starting with life, liberty, conscience and the like.)

Which, should ring some very loud warning bells.

In answer to such cynicism, I draw to our attention, a warning and a hope at the foundation of modern liberty and democracy, as Locke cites Hooker in his 2nd treatise on Civil Government:

>>. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man’s hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [[Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [[Eccl. Polity, preface, Bk I, “ch.” 8, p.80]>>

And again, Jefferson et al as they built on that foundation in the US DoI 1776:

>>We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness . . . >>

So, whose report do we believe — eric et al, or Locke, Hooker and Jefferson et al, why? And, where does this all point? END

Comments
You have this backwards. The point is not that some philosophers dreamed up a set of morals from a theory of an ultimate deity, but that since we feel objective morals pressing on us, they necessarily point us to God.
Brent, no. The press of morals on us does not necessarily point to a deity or any specific deity. The press of morals on us necessarily tells us that we need to understand their imperative.
It's easy to say no to a guy named Brent on Uncommon Descent, but one would like to see you acknowledge that in fact this is the thought of the greatest thinkers in history. I don't recommend taking anything on authority alone, but it would be nice to have a reasoned explanation as to why you would contradict the intellectual towers of the past.
Certainly we don’t know that any morals are objective, and as my comments indicate, even belief in a deity cannot make one’s morals “objective”.
Actually, this couldn't be more wrong even if you tried. If any "moral" isn't objective, it simply isn't a moral. Again, the term "subjective morality" is for the gutless atheist. Nothing subjective carries the weight of ought. If morality doesn't have the weight of ought, then we aren't talking morality any more.
You have an interesting theory, but I am not aware of any reason to give it credence.
It's not mine alone, and if you cannot find any reason within the countless volumes produced to show you the reasons, then perhaps you aren't being quite as objective on this question as you suppose.
You have to deny morality to deny God, and very, very few atheists have the guts to do that.
This is simply wrong. I don’t deny God, but I know that morality exists whether God does or not. Few atheists “deny morality” because there’s every reason not to.
No! This is magnificently and obviously right. You cannot get an ought from subjective anything, and that's all you are left with without an ultimate, transcendent authority. And absent an ought, you are absent morals.
If man and his whims are the source of the moral law, then man governs the moral law, and the moral law does not govern man.
Whims are not the source of moral law, but unless a deity speaks directly to you, humans govern moral law anyway.
Translation: Whims are not the source of the moral law, but whims are the source of the moral law anyway. When you have to make arguments that rely on such obviously contradictory language, especially within the span of a single sentence, it should be a pretty big clue you are not speaking the truth.
What I know of religiously based moral law has passed through the hands of innumerable humans, each smearing it with their own biases. I have never heard the voice of God.
You have heard the voice of God. It would be nearer the truth to say you could hardly think of a time you were not actively hearing the voice of God. That would be another issue, however . . .
Moral law governs humans because we have needs that only it can provide; but again we don’t need a God to give morality to us, and believing in gods has not spared us from moral uncertainty.
Why do you speak of the moral law as something separate and distinct from humans? If we are the source of the moral law as you say, then stop it. From now on, say what you really think and must necessarily mean: 'Humans govern humans.'Brent
July 2, 2015
July
07
Jul
2
02
2015
06:20 PM
6
06
20
PM
PDT
sean samis
OK, now I’m gonna call [snip, language] on you. Christians “introduced” marriage?! Please! That’s utter nonsense. Marriage is various forms is found in nearly all cultures throughout time.
We are discussing definitions and who has the "right" to use them for the purpose of shaping a culture. Christians introduced the first definition of marriage as a man and woman becoming "one flesh." In that context, it was understood that the family had the right to direct the government rather than the other way around. The government was never suppose to have "rights." The Supreme Court recently undercut that definition and arrogated to itself that same right--to define marriage. The principle I outlined is still in force. Every right entails the elimination of another right. Now, instead of the family directing the government, which is natural, the government directs the family (and of course seeks to eliminate it as the primary institution), which is unnatural. Hence, the Natural Moral Law.
And finally, your answer is nonresponsive; my question stands: If I grant to all the right to equal protection under the law, or to religious liberty, from whom am I taking a right? That question is not about same-sex marriage.
Your question does not apply because it isn't specific. One specific right will always compromise another specific right. Example: The right to not be offended eliminates the right of religious expression. The right to a free college education takes away the right of the taxpayer to retain part of his income. Again, no specific right can be granted except at the expense of another right. If you can think of an example, please share it. SB: Is abortion immoral by your standard?
Yes, of course it is.
Excellent. We agree on at least one point. Also, it will help to further illustrate my point. The right to an abortion will take away another person's right to live. Are you starting to understand how this works?
But so is abandoning unwanted babies and their desperate mothers to the tender cares of an indifferent society.
Agreed.
Worrying about the first 9 months of a child’s life cannot compensate for the moral failure exhibited by indifference to the child’s welfare over their remaining 900 months. (900 months equaling 75 years, a reasonable life-span.) This indifference is manifestly Evil.
Agreed.
As Dietrich Bonhoeffer noted once: sometimes every choice results in Evil.
Yes, and it is also the case that sometimes every choice involves "harm" on both sides, which is why harm cannot be the sole metric for determining what is moral. I may have to harm someone to stop him from harming me. One nation may have to harm thousands from another nation in order to prevent being enslaved. So some standard other than harm must ultimately be applied to make moral judgments. That standard is the natural moral law (and the Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount). More important still, you cannot possibly know what harm is for someone without knowing the purpose of that person's existence (or lack of it). If his (or her) purpose is to be with God for eternity, we harm him if we take him away from that destiny, which would mean eternal harm. Even if we protect him from all other harm, we have harmed him beyond repair. On the other hand, if he has no purpose, then the word "harm" takes on a whole new meaning.StephenB
July 2, 2015
July
07
Jul
2
02
2015
05:45 PM
5
05
45
PM
PDT
sean samis
If this is something you are unaware of then there is no point in trying to discuss this with you. How could you not know? Anyone who’s up to date on cosmology knows of what I write. But not you.
Citation needed.
This is still meaningless. How is love without conditions different from hate without conditions? Or fish without conditions? Or shoes?
Hate will always have some form of justification, love however can be manifested unconditionally and that is the purest state of love, evil is not an opposite force of good, there is only love and lack of love and lack of love always has reasons egocentric reasons, we think that love and hate are two equal forces because the love we see today is mostly conditional like hate but true love is unconditionally and true hate does not exist, if you are for example racist the reason you hate a person its because he is not the same color or culture as you, the ego hates and you are not the ego, can you uncondinionally hate yourself? You can unconditionally love yourself by accepting who you are and therefore accepting life as it is, hate is just an excuse because people are afraid to step into the light guided by love.
Saying X is without conditions tells us nothing about what X is.
I don't understand what you are trying to say.
All I’m looking for is your definition of “love”. Do you not have one?
a profoundly tender, passionate affection for another person.
You are saying that God’s love is Unconditional. OK, if that’s the case, you are saying God does not care if we sin or not; he still loves us and will reward us all the same way because His love is UNCONDITIONAL.
We are the images of God, that means that we punish themselves, God doesn't send people to Hell, Hell is not a material place that you go like a prison camp, Hell is a state of your consciousness, you die and all you have left is the guilts that you were a bad person, that's why when someone dies we say as a wish "REST IN PEACE" because good people have peace because they didn't do anything evil to disturb their consciousness. You Atheists must understand that we are images of God NOT SEPARATED ENTITIES. Cool.
But only on youtube. It appears that you are unable to explain these many proofs, which makes me think you don’t even understand them. That makes your claims unreliable and pretty much worthless.
The video i shared provided scientific evidence.
No, it doesn’t. I think you’re tangled up in the Observer Conundrum. You don’t understand it. Ah well.
Yes it does...Reality doesn't exist until is measured. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/05/150527103110.htm
If I posted all the sites and articles that prove that consciousness remains an enigma and that no Creator is needed, you’d not be persuaded. So why would you think a boat-load of links would persuade me? If you cannot explain how this works, then I have no reason to think you have it right.
What do you mean how it works? When there is no measurement there is no reality, the Macroworld doesn't exist until it is measured.JimFit
July 2, 2015
July
07
Jul
2
02
2015
04:08 PM
4
04
08
PM
PDT
SS, As of now I have to consider that I am dealing with people to whom key words and institutions such as marriage and rights are meaningless beyond that which manipulation and might can foist on the public, the law and institutions. This turns such into utter nihilists who are not to be trusted in any serious endeavour or in the community. In particular, statements or promises or even court rulings and acts under colour of law for the moment that freedom of conscience has some regard are to be taken as meaningless. A promise from one whose word is worth nothing is a comfort only to a simpleton. Especially, in a context where activists have already proved that they have judges in their back pockets willing to bankrupt small businesses with six figure fines and/or legal costs. In short, the nihilistic liar and the manipulator violate truth, justice, law and even communication itself, showing such to be enemies of humanity. That, is the line which has been passed. That, is the fire that is being foolishly played with by those who enable or go along with such. And, that hellish fire is going to create a horrific conflagration in our civilisation if we do not come to our senses as of yesterday. In my homeland there is an apt saying: fire deh pon mus mus tail, but him think seh a cool breeze deh deh. In that light, I now require and request that those who wish to further discuss the homosexualist twisting of the law on marriage, take such a discussion elsewhere. This thread is not on that subject, and I will not allow it to be further diverted to such. Not, with marauding activists going around looking for the next target to pounce on and haul before corrupted courts or the like. There is a far more central issue on the table, and I would appreciate a return to that topic. But I will pause to say this much on Creation order, naturally evident marriage, by way of citing the central teacher of the Judaeo-Christian tradition, on what no counterfeit, manipulation or perversion can ever change no matter what bench of judges or parliaments full of politicians may wish to say:
Mt 19:4 He [Jesus] answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.”
What God joins and has embedded in our nature as morally governed creatures, let not man (oh, so wise in his own eyes) put asunder. KFkairosfocus
July 2, 2015
July
07
Jul
2
02
2015
03:32 PM
3
03
32
PM
PDT
Mr Seamis, I have edited you for vulgarity. I expect that you will avoid such from now on. KFkairosfocus
July 2, 2015
July
07
Jul
2
02
2015
03:08 PM
3
03
08
PM
PDT
JimFit @49:
...everything physical began to exist including space and time, the BB is the absolute beginning of everything physical. Where did you read that the Big Bang will prove that the Universe is a part of an infinite Universe? That is so wrong that i wont even comment...
If this is something you are unaware of then there is no point in trying to discuss this with you. How could you not know? Anyone who’s up to date on cosmology knows of what I write. But not you.
There are different types of love, i am talking about unconditional love aka love without conditions.
This is still meaningless. How is love without conditions different from hate without conditions? Or fish without conditions? Or shoes? Saying X is without conditions tells us nothing about what X is. All I’m looking for is your definition of “love”. Do you not have one? I suppose I could just proceed on the assumption that by love, you mean substantially the same thing as the standard English definition: an intense feeling of deep affection; a feeling of strong or constant affection for a person arising out of kinship or personal ties, admiration, benevolence, or common interests; or unselfish loyal and benevolent concern for the good of another. You are saying that God’s love is Unconditional. OK, if that’s the case, you are saying God does not care if we sin or not; he still loves us and will reward us all the same way because His love is UNCONDITIONAL. Cool.
...it has been proven that Consciousness precedes Materialism again and again.
But only on youtube. It appears that you are unable to explain these many proofs, which makes me think you don’t even understand them. That makes your claims unreliable and pretty much worthless.
Quantum Mechanics reveals that consciousness has a special, even a central, position within material reality.
No, it doesn’t. I think you’re tangled up in the Observer Conundrum. You don’t understand it. Ah well. If I posted all the sites and articles that prove that consciousness remains an enigma and that no Creator is needed, you’d not be persuaded. So why would you think a boat-load of links would persuade me? If you cannot explain how this works, then I have no reason to think you have it right. sean s.sean samis
July 2, 2015
July
07
Jul
2
02
2015
02:54 PM
2
02
54
PM
PDT
StephenB @48
If the Supreme Court redefines the meaning of marriage, then Christians have lost their right to define it, even though it was they who introduced it.
OK, now I’m gonna call [snip, language] on you. Christians “introduced” marriage?! Please! That’s utter nonsense. Marriage is various forms is found in nearly all cultures throughout time. And Christians have a “right to define marriage”?! [snip]! They didn’t invent it; they didn’t introduce it; they have no proprietary interest in it. Christians have a right to define marriage for themselves, but not for all humanity. And finally, your answer is nonresponsive; my question stands: If I grant to all the right to equal protection under the law, or to religious liberty, from whom am I taking a right? That question is not about same-sex marriage.
Is abortion immoral by your standard?
Yes, of course it is. But so is abandoning unwanted babies and their desperate mothers to the tender cares of an indifferent society. Worrying about the first 9 months of a child’s life cannot compensate for the moral failure exhibited by indifference to the child’s welfare over their remaining 900 months. (900 months equaling 75 years, a reasonable life-span.) This indifference is manifestly Evil. Aborting the child to save them from a lifetime of poverty, desperation, crime, ignorance, and suffering is not worse than allowing that kind of suffering itself. Abortion is never necessary, but sometimes it is less cruel than the ghetto, the slum, and the prison. Abortion is not always the worst outcome. As Dietrich Bonhoeffer noted once: sometimes every choice results in Evil.
Would it be moral for humans to totally separate sexual activity from procreation by practicing artificial birth control and homosexuality to such extent that the population dies and human history ends? Is anyone “harmed” if that happens?
The question is whether this UNLIKELY policy (another extreme example) is voluntarily carried out by every human. In that extraordinary situation, it is not immoral. No one was forced. It is, however, quite unlikely. I’d bet the farm against it happening voluntarily. sean s. {WARNING: I have a zero tolerance policy on vulgarity. I expect compliance. KF}sean samis
July 2, 2015
July
07
Jul
2
02
2015
02:16 PM
2
02
16
PM
PDT
… or just an event that caused the creation; events don’t require consciousness or intent. If the “Big Bang” is correct, our universe is probably just a part of a larger Universe which has existed forever. Lacking any real beginning, it lacks any need for a creator.
Oh men...again, everything physical began to exist including space and time, the BB is the absolute beginning of everything physical. Where did you read that the Big Bang will prove that the Universe is a part of an infinite Universe? That is so wrong that i wont even comment...
You still have not said what the word ‘love’ means to you. And there’s no reason to believe the brain does not create feeling.
There are different types of love, i am talking about unconditional love aka love without conditions. There is no reason to believe that the brain creates anything...not to mention that creation implies consciousness. Does the brain create anything on its own unconsciously? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBsI_ay8K70 Refuting Physicalist Objections https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB5TNrtu9Pk Quantum Physics debunk Materialism https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C5pq7W5yRM
The GR can be grounded in experience. It needs nothing more. Is consciousness materialistic? Sure. Why not?
Experience is part of being Conscious and Consciousness is transcendent, it has been proven that Consciousness precedes Materialism again and again. The bizarre nature of reality as laid out by quantum theory has survived another test, with scientists performing a famous experiment and proving that reality does not exist until it is measured. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/05/150527103110.htm
Nah. With regards to consciousness, these are all sheer speculation. It is not established that consciousness is a quantum effect any more than smell is. Many try to pin it down, none have done so.
Quantum Mechanics reveals that consciousness has a special, even a central, position within material reality. Quantum Enigma Observation in Quantum Mechanics and the 'Collapse of the Wavefunction' http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1961ZPhy..161..454J http://journals.aps.org/pr/abstract/10.1103/PhysRev.47.777 http://philoscience.unibe.ch/documents/TexteHS10/bell1964epr.pdf http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v446/n7138/full/446866a.html https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvMx1baJwpA http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023%2FA%3A1026096313729 http://arxiv.org/abs/0704.2529 http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2007/apr/20/quantum-physics-says-goodbye-to-reality https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nttB3Wze3Y8 http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9903047 http://www.bottomlayer.com/bottom/kim-scully/kim-scully-web.htm http://arxiv.org/abs/1106.4481 http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20600-quantum-magic-trick-shows-reality-is-what-you-make-it.html https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiNJRh2fxY8 http://arxiv.org/abs/1206.6578 http://www.nature.com/news/2007/070416/full/news070416-9.html http://arxiv.org/abs/1207.5294 http://www.pnas.org/content/108/4/1256.abstract http://meetings.aps.org/Meeting/MAR07/Event/57254 http://www.nature.com/nnano/journal/v7/n5/full/nnano.2012.34.html http://www.livescience.com/19268-quantum-double-slit-experiment-largest-molecules.html http://arxiv.org/abs/0909.1469 http://www.nature.com/news/2011/050411/full/news.2011.210.html http://www.wired.com/2009/09/quantum-entanglement/ http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100317/full/news.2010.130.html http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0801/0801.0337.pdfJimFit
July 2, 2015
July
07
Jul
2
02
2015
01:49 PM
1
01
49
PM
PDT
sean samis
If I grant to all the right to equal protection under the law, or to religious liberty, from whom am I taking a right?
If the Supreme Court redefines the meaning of marriage, then Christians have lost their right to define it, even though it was, in large part, they who introduced it. One group gains the right to define marriage, another group loses it. (The definition has been changed from one man and one woman to anything the person "getting married" wants it to be.)" If one group is granted a right, another group will ALWAYS lose a right. It is a zero sum gain. There are no exceptions to this principle. It is not possible to even think of one. If you disagree with me, try to come up with a specific example, and I will show you which right was gained and which right was lost.
Harm: any physical injury, financial loss, or impairment of liberty; or a substantial risk of any of these against the express consent of the one harmed or placed at risk. Psychological harm significant enough to risk manifestation in physical injury is included as a harm.
Is abortion harmful (and immoral) by your standard? Presumably, you would agree that it is immoral since it harms the unborn child. Yet I suspect that you would reject that argument. Would it be harmful (and immoral) for humans to totally separate sexual activity from procreation by practicing artificial birth control and homosexuality to such extent that the population dies and human history ends? Is anyone “harmed” if that happens?StephenB
July 2, 2015
July
07
Jul
2
02
2015
01:39 PM
1
01
39
PM
PDT
JimFit @45:
Since everything physical have a beginning then the Universe didn’t existed prior to its existence, that makes it by definition a creation tha happen due to an act and an act demands a Consciousness, ...
... or just an event that caused the creation; events don’t require consciousness or intent. If the “Big Bang” is correct, our universe is probably just a part of a larger Universe which has existed forever. Lacking any real beginning, it lacks any need for a creator.
Unconditional love is not based on feelings, i love someone no matter if he/she/it has feelings. I choose to have feelings after i love unconditionally, the brain doesn’t create feelings.
You still have not said what the word ‘love’ means to you. And there’s no reason to believe the brain does not create feeling.
The Golden Rule cannot be grounded on Materialism, it cannot be grounded on space and time. What’s the source of the golden rule? Your Consciousness. Is your Consciousness materialistic? No its not.
The GR can be grounded in experience. It needs nothing more. Is consciousness materialistic? Sure. Why not?
Four intersecting lines of experimental evidence from quantum mechanics that shows that consciousness precedes material reality (Wigner’s Quantum Symmetries, Wheeler’s Delayed Choice, Leggett’s Inequalities, Quantum Zeno effect)
Nah. With regards to consciousness, these are all sheer speculation. It is not established that consciousness is a quantum effect any more than smell is. Many try to pin it down, none have done so. sean s.sean samis
July 2, 2015
July
07
Jul
2
02
2015
01:29 PM
1
01
29
PM
PDT
StephenB @43:
Why does it “harm” a child to tell him that homosexuality is intrinsically disordered?
Because it’s false.
...it is always harmful to tell someone a lie about nature and morality.
Agreed.
According to the natural moral law, homosexual acts violate the laws of nature, which means that they are immoral.
The “natural moral law” is neither “natural”, “moral”, nor a “law”. It is a religious construct which seeks to justify religious rules by appeals to nature. Unfortunately, it must cherry pick what is natural to justify what it wants to prove “moral”. Vengeance is perfectly natural, but is considered immoral. Celebacy is unnatural, but considered moral. And so forth. Homosexuality is natural; it has been observed in nature as well as human communities.
I have defined harm in the context of my argument. You have not defined harm in the context of your argument. Yet you define immorality as “harming” someone.
But I did offer to if you wanted it, in #34. Apparently now you do. OK. Here we go: A Rational Moral System First of all, I prefer the term rational moral system, not “materialistic ...” and I will refer to it that way here. The “materialistic” beginnings of a moral system are very basic: we are material, living creatures who are vulnerable to injuries, age, ignorance, and other weaknesses. Nature has made us social creatures that generally do best living in stable communities. We are capable of acquiring some knowledge and some foresight. All simple facts. Theists frequently assert that if there were no deity, there could be no morality. But it is useful to flip that over: given the moral systems we have, if there are no deities, where did these moral systems come from? Absent any deity, they are most certainly the product of tens of thousands of years of experience humans have dealing with the problems of living together in families, clans, tribes, and communities. Differences in moral systems can be understood simply as the different solutions different cultures came up with to solve the moral issues that all human communities experience. Rational persons have come to expect natural processes to be characterized by a certain degree of variation. Absent any deity the process of creating moral systems is entirely natural with the expected natural variations. Many people focus on the differences between these various moral systems and determine that there’s little useful to learn from their comparisons. Others focus on the things these moral systems do have in common and find the basis of a rational, debiased “natural law” system. I favor that last approach myself. (By “debiased” I mean moral principles extracted from idiosyncratic cultural aspects.) There occurs a long, complex story of comparative religion, psychology (how the mind works) and sociology (how humans and communities behave). This forum does not need the burden of that here, only the results matter here. The net result: I believe there are two basic rules to any valid, rational moral system: 1. Do No Evil. (Evil and Harm are defined below.) 2. Do unto others that which you would have them do unto you. (That should sound familiar.) Evil is any act with respect to another person which... 1. causes Harm, 2. is Intentional, and 3. is Unnecessary. Harm: any physical injury, financial loss, or impairment of liberty; or a substantial risk of any of these against the express consent of the one harmed or placed at risk. Psychological harm significant enough to risk manifestation in physical injury is included as a harm. Intentional: includes premeditation, recklessness, and unreasonable negligence. Unnecessary: not justified by mitigation or prevention of other, greater harms or injustice nor justified by the consent of the one harmed. This probably covers more than 80% of genuine Evil, and is a good starting point. I do not claim it is complete. Suggestions will be considered. Having defined Evil, what is Good? Good is a category of not-Evil behaviors and results which are not generally definable beyond saying that Good is a non-overlapping set with Evil. What is Evil is never Good, what is “good” for X might not be “good” for Y. Obviously there can exist a large category of behaviors and results which are not clearly Good, but not clearly Evil. Objective definitions of “Good” are a mirage because even things that seem obviously good (necessities like food, water, air, shelter, security) can become not-good by being excessive or restricting or otherwise harmful. Which leaves us with: what makes something “Good” simply has no generally applicable, objective answer; every person has a right (a liberty) to decide that for themselves. As long as they Do No Evil, they have a right to decide for themselves what is the Good for themselves (but not for others). Definitions of “Good” are usually reducible to “something not bad”. No greater definition is needed or wanted. There is a reason that the most commonly shared moral concepts are best characterized as “Thou shalt not”s. It is often clearer to simply determine what to avoid or prohibit than to try to list all the things we must or should do. Worse yet, seeking an “objective” definition of Good is often a pretext to Evil: “objective Good” can be used as a weapon with which to deprive others of their liberties (a harm). Compelling others to do things because these things are “objectively Good” is one of the keys to tyranny. Forbidding actually Evil behaviors is clearer and less prone to abuse. This is as far as I am going to go for now. If I had more time, I’d write something briefer. Most of the above is just cut and paste with a bit of editing to clean it up or fit it to the context of this thread. Basically, this is nothing new. sean s.sean samis
July 2, 2015
July
07
Jul
2
02
2015
01:12 PM
1
01
12
PM
PDT
sean samis
It is not logically necessary. The rest of your claims are only opinions. Perhaps your claims are right, but you’re not doing a good job of making them sensible to me. That may be my fault, but that’s how it is.
Definition of creation noun cre·a·tion : the act of making or producing something that did not exist before : the act of creating something Since everything physical have a beginning then the Universe didn't existed prior to its existence, that makes it by definition a creation tha happen due to an act and an act demands a Consciousness, this Cosmic Consciousness is what we call God. Since a transcendent Creator exists then He is Eternal, He isn't bound from time, He exists eternally.
Unfortunately, it’s not clear to me what you ARE talking about. It looks to me that you are using the word ‘love’ with a substantially different meaning than the English word ‘love’. Even in English, love is not about rewards, it’s about conduct and feelings toward another. Is God’s love similar enough to human love that a person could have expectations about God’s behavior based on what it means to love someone?
Unconditional love is not based on feelings, i love someone no matter if he/she/it has feelings. I choose to have feelings after i love unconditionally, the brain doesn't create feelings.
Nope, Nope, and Nope. I accept the Golden rule. I don’t accept any of this transcendence stuff because there’s no good reason to that I can see.
But you self debunked yourself. The Golden Rule cannot be grounded on Materialism, it cannot be grounded on space and time. What's the source of the golden rule? Your Consciousness. Is your Consciousness materialistic? No its not. Four intersecting lines of experimental evidence from quantum mechanics that shows that consciousness precedes material reality (Wigner’s Quantum Symmetries, Wheeler’s Delayed Choice, Leggett’s Inequalities, Quantum Zeno effect): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1G_Fi50ljF5w_XyJHfmSIZsOcPFhgoAZ3PRc_ktY8cFo/editJimFit
July 2, 2015
July
07
Jul
2
02
2015
01:10 PM
1
01
10
PM
PDT
JimFit @42:
...Eternity exists, Eternity is a fact and that the Universe is a Creation is a fact also and a physical creation needs a transcendent Creator since everything physical began to exist (that’s a fact also), which means that He must be Eternal (above spacetime). If you are Eternal you can’t do evil because evil is purposeless on Eternity. Evil cannot be aimless while unconditional love can be aimless that’s why God is all loving.
That the universe exists is a fact. That something happened to create it (“the Big Bang”) is only certain because there’s evidence of it. It is not logically necessary. The rest of your claims are only opinions. Perhaps your claims are right, but you’re not doing a good job of making them sensible to me. That may be my fault, but that’s how it is.
I am not talking about love with rewards.
Unfortunately, it’s not clear to me what you ARE talking about. It looks to me that you are using the word ‘love’ with a substantially different meaning than the English word ‘love’. Even in English, love is not about rewards, it’s about conduct and feelings toward another. Is God’s love similar enough to human love that a person could have expectations about God’s behavior based on what it means to love someone?
The Golden Rule is transcendent therefor it goes against Materialism which exists only inside spacetime. If you accept the Golden Rule you accept transcendence therefor you accept absolute morality since change exists only on Materialism. Transcendence is unchangeable, it isn’t affected by spacetime to change. The Golden Rule is delivered from your Consciousness which precedes Material reality not Material Reality (space,time,matter).
Nope, Nope, and Nope. I accept the Golden rule. I don’t accept any of this transcendence stuff because there’s no good reason to that I can see.
Reason doesn’t equal Goodness, something evil can be reasonable. I don’t understand how History, Biology, and Psychology equal Goodness or drive morality.
Never said anything about reason, history, biology, or psychology equaling Goodness. I’m not even sure what that means. sean s.sean samis
July 2, 2015
July
07
Jul
2
02
2015
12:31 PM
12
12
31
PM
PDT
sean samis
The truth is that homosexuality is within the normal range of human behaviors; some have instincts toward it, most do not.
Would it harm the child if he was taught that homosexuality is within the normal range when, in fact, it is not within the normal range? You have not defined normal. I say that 3% of the population is not normal. What is your definition of normal? Did you know that 4% of the population is sociopathic? Do you think sociopaths fall within the "normal" range?StephenB
July 2, 2015
July
07
Jul
2
02
2015
12:25 PM
12
12
25
PM
PDT
sean samis
This is a theology which adds up to almost nothing that I can see. Q: does the term ‘love’ mean with regard to God essentially the same thing as it means with regards to humans? Is “God’s love” essentially the same as human love?
No that's not Theology, Eternity exists, Eternity is a fact and that the Universe is a Creation is a fact also and a physical creation needs a transcendent Creator since everything physical began to exist (that's a fact also), which means that He must be Eternal (above spacetime). If you are Eternal you can't do evil because evil is purposeless on Eternity. Evil cannot be aimless while unconditional love can be aimless that's why God is all loving. We are the images of God not separated entities, that means that we too can love unconditionally each other just like God. I am not talking about love with rewards.
I agree that what is moral or immoral is independent of place and time. I am not at all sure that any morality is ‘absolute’; the moral valence of any act can be conditioned by its context. That which is ‘torture’ in one scenario is ‘surgery’ in another. You do not understand materialism; I know of no materialist who’d agree that things are moral or immoral because of gravity or time. Materialistic morality needs only reason and the evidence of history, biology, and psychology. If you mean the Golden Rule when you say the “golden law” then yes, you are right. I embrace the Golden Rule. No deity (transcendent or otherwise) is needed for that.
The Golden Rule is transcendent therefor it goes against Materialism which exists only inside spacetime. If you accept the Golden Rule you accept transcendence therefor you accept absolute morality since change exists only on Materialism. Transcendence is unchangeable, it isn't affected by spacetime to change. The Golden Rule is delivered from your Consciousness which precedes Material reality not Material Reality (space,time,matter). Reason doesn't equal Goodness, something evil can be reasonable. I don't understand how History, Biology, and Psychology equal Goodness or drive morality.JimFit
July 2, 2015
July
07
Jul
2
02
2015
10:53 AM
10
10
53
AM
PDT
StephenB @38:
Am I harming a child if I send him to a government school which teaches him that homosexuality is normal and that he should be open to the experience even if his instincts go the opposite direction? Or, am I harming the chld if I educate him at home and tell him the truth, namely that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered and violate the natural moral law. Define harm in that context. Which approach harms the child and why?
This is silly. Both harm the child. Your example can be summarized as follows: given a school which teaches falsehoods and advocates particular life choices regardless of the child’s instincts, is there a harm to children who attend the school? Well Doh! Of course there is. In both situations, the probability is quite high of inflicting unjustified emotional harm so severe as to have physical manifestations. It does not matter if the school is run by the government or you. It does not matter if the school teaches that homosexuality is normal (it’s not uniquely so) or that homosexuality is intrinsically disordered and violates natural law (those are false too). The truth is that homosexuality is within the normal range of human behaviors; some have instincts toward it, most do not. The child should be taught to examine their instincts, discuss them with trusted adults, and decide how to respond. Your question gives me the choice between two situations doing it wrongly. A pox on both of them. Your example is silly. Here’s a less silly example: a school that teaches children that homosexuality is intrinsically disordered, that it violates natural law, and that the children should avoid it even if their instincts go in its direction. This has been quite common until lately, and has literally driven children to suicide. @40:
All rights are subject to a zero sum gain. To grant one person a right always means taking away a right from some other person.
If I grant to all the right to equal protection under the law, or to religious liberty, from whom am I taking a right?
if you grant rights to everyone who demands one, you create chaos.
Good thing I haven’t, huh?!
There is no political or constitutional right for same sex marriage. No rational argument can be advanced to support the idea.
Sure there is. The principle of equality before the law extends the right to marry to all couples who are similarly situated. Different-sex couples, inter-racial couples, inter-faith couples, and same-sex couples need not be distinguished; all are equally entitled to the same marital rights. Protecting the marital rights of one kind of couple takes nothing away from the rights of the others or any other persons. Equal protection and religious liberty stand in support of this marital right for all the couples I mentioned. sean s.sean samis
July 2, 2015
July
07
Jul
2
02
2015
10:39 AM
10
10
39
AM
PDT
sean samis
I have not written anything in this thread about “basic rights”; I’m not even sure that’s a useful term. IMHO, rights are rights, and no right is absolute.
Well, here is the thing. All rights are subject to a zero sum gain. To grant one person a right always means taking away a right from some other person. If you have the right of way at a four way stop, then I don't have it. If I grant one person the right not to be offended or to receive a free college education, I automatically take away another person's right to speak or retain part of his income. So, if you grant rights to everyone who demands one, you create chaos. It becomes a war of all against all. That is why there are very few "basic" political rights, such as the freedom to express one's religious beliefs, to live, to speak, and to assemble. Only those rights that are necessary to preserve a well-ordered society are basic. There is no political or constitutional right for same sex marriage. No rational argument can be advanced to support the idea.StephenB
July 2, 2015
July
07
Jul
2
02
2015
09:50 AM
9
09
50
AM
PDT
logically_speaking @37
I embrace the Golden Rule. No deity (transcendent or otherwise) is needed for that”. Which makes the Golden Rule an objective moral standard IMO.
As I wrote earlier, the distinction between objective and subjective is probably pointless in this matter because these terms differ principally in their degree of confidence. I am highly confident that the GR is almost always true; I cannot at this moment even imagine a situation where it would not hold. Is the GR objective? Not necessarily; but it’s pretty close to that.
The right to life ... seems pretty absolute to me
So when the police kill someone that’s a crime always? If it’s not, then the right to life is not absolute.
The right to freedom
So when they put someone in prison, that’s a crime always? If it’s not, then the right to freedom is not absolute.
The right to property
So if property is repossessed due to failure to pay debts, taxes, or because the property was used in a crime, that taking of property is a crime itself always? Or if the other guy won’t sell available property to you? That’s a crime always? You know where this is going... All rights have their reasonable bounds.
The responsibility to protect these rights.
This is not a right, so it’s a whole different topic. If this responsibility is absolute, then you MUST risk your life to help others. I’m sure there’s very little agreement on that. sean s.sean samis
July 2, 2015
July
07
Jul
2
02
2015
09:37 AM
9
09
37
AM
PDT
SB: …what is your basis for determining which public behaviors are moral and which public behaviors are immoral? sean samis
Public behaviors which cause an unjustified harm to others (including impairment of their liberties) are immoral. I’ve written about this in the past on this site, complete with a detailed explanation of what constitutes a “harm”. Here I give only a summary. If you need the whole thing, I can cut-and-paste with the best of them.
You have given me no summary to evaluate. Meanwhile, I would like to know your standard for evaluating mental harm. Try this one: Am I harming a child if I send him to a government school which teaches him that homosexuality is normal and that he should be open to the experience even if his instincts go the opposite direction? Or, am I harming the chld if I educate him at home and tell him the truth, namely that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered and violate the natural moral law. Define harm in that context. Which approach harms the child and why?StephenB
July 2, 2015
July
07
Jul
2
02
2015
09:30 AM
9
09
30
AM
PDT
Sean Samis, "I embrace the Golden Rule. No deity (transcendent or otherwise) is needed for that". Which makes the Golden Rule an objective moral standard IMO. "IMHO, rights are rights, and no right is absolute". 1. The right to life. 2. The right to freedom. 3. The right to property. And, 4. The responsibility to protect these rights. Those seem pretty absolute to me, everything else is a privilege. A crime is committed if it violates any of those rights.logically_speaking
July 2, 2015
July
07
Jul
2
02
2015
08:48 AM
8
08
48
AM
PDT
Brent @35:
You have this backwards. The point is not that some philosophers dreamed up a set of morals from a theory of an ultimate deity, but that since we feel objective morals pressing on us, they necessarily point us to God.
Brent, no. The press of morals on us does not necessarily point to a deity or any specific deity. The press of morals on us necessarily tells us that we need to understand their imperative. Certainly we don’t know that any morals are objective, and as my comments indicate, even belief in a deity cannot make one’s morals “objective”. You have an interesting theory, but I am not aware of any reason to give it credence.
You have to deny morality to deny God, and very, very few atheists have the guts to do that.
This is simply wrong. I don’t deny God, but I know that morality exists whether God does or not. Few atheists “deny morality” because there’s every reason not to.
If man and his whims are the source of the moral law, then man governs the moral law, and the moral law does not govern man.
Whims are not the source of moral law, but unless a deity speaks directly to you, humans govern moral law anyway. What I know of religiously based moral law has passed through the hands of innumerable humans, each smearing it with their own biases. I have never heard the voice of God. Moral law governs humans because we have needs that only it can provide; but again we don’t need a God to give morality to us, and believing in gods has not spared us from moral uncertainty. sean s.sean samis
July 2, 2015
July
07
Jul
2
02
2015
08:42 AM
8
08
42
AM
PDT
Sean Samis @8,
1. If the deity’s existence is not objectively knowable, then the morality “it provides” cannot be objective. Subjective claims about the existence of a deity cannot result in an objective morality.
You have this backwards. The point is not that some philosophers dreamed up a set of morals from a theory of an ultimate deity, but that since we feel objective morals pressing on us, they necessarily point us to God. You have to deny morality to deny God, and very, very few atheists have the guts to do that. If man and his whims are the source of the moral law, then man governs the moral law, and the moral law does not govern man. As such, speaking of subjective morality is only the outing of a gutless atheist.Brent
July 2, 2015
July
07
Jul
2
02
2015
08:10 AM
8
08
10
AM
PDT
To JimFit and StephenB; JimFit @17:
Christianity is about unconditional love. God created us...
This is a theology which adds up to almost nothing that I can see. Q: does the term ‘love’ mean with regard to God essentially the same thing as it means with regards to humans? Is “God’s love” essentially the same as human love?
Morality is also transcendent and steams from our transcendent consciousness, the golden law would apply even if we move outside earth or back in time, it would still be immoral etc to torture you even if we go to the moon, absolute morality cannot be grounded on materialism, we don’t say etc that if i kick you is bad because this rock is heavy or because its 9 o’clock. You seem to agree with the golden law
I agree that what is moral or immoral is independent of place and time. I am not at all sure that any morality is ‘absolute’; the moral valence of any act can be conditioned by its context. That which is 'torture' in one scenario is 'surgery' in another. You do not understand materialism; I know of no materialist who’d agree that things are moral or immoral because of gravity or time. Materialistic morality needs only reason and the evidence of history, biology, and psychology. If you mean the Golden Rule when you say the “golden law” then yes, you are right. I embrace the Golden Rule. No deity (transcendent or otherwise) is needed for that.
There are of course some moral choices which are subjective etc it is immoral for a Muslim woman to walk publicly without her head covered but that doesn’t mean that all moral choices are equally subjective.
No. A Muslim woman may decide for herself that it is immoral for her to walk publicly without her head covered. A different Muslim woman might conclude that head covering has no moral significance. Both are valid moral choices. Your comments regarding ISIS (properly called Daesh imo) are somewhat muddled; I choose not to try to figure them out. StephenB @20:
Public morality is nothing more than the outward expression of private morality.
Not necessarily. But this is probably not an important point here.
...what is your basis for determining which public behaviors are moral and which public behaviors are immoral?
Public behaviors which cause an unjustified harm to others (including impairment of their liberties) are immoral. I’ve written about this in the past on this site, complete with a detailed explanation of what constitutes a “harm”. Here I give only a summary. If you need the whole thing, I can cut-and-paste with the best of them.
What is your basis for saying that some rights are basic while others are not?
I have not written anything in this thread about “basic rights”; I’m not even sure that’s a useful term. IMHO, rights are rights, and no right is absolute. sean s.sean samis
July 2, 2015
July
07
Jul
2
02
2015
07:13 AM
7
07
13
AM
PDT
StephenB:
No, the argument is that, in spite of your claims that “all morality is subjective,” you really do think that slavery is objectively wrong after all. You have just acknowledged the point again. You think slavery is objectively wrong.
Indeed. And REC thinks Jefferson should be judged according to his [REC's] allegedly subjective view on the morality of slavery, even though Jefferson existed in a time far different from our own, and that we all should all agree with him. It just never ceases to amaze me.Mung
July 2, 2015
July
07
Jul
2
02
2015
07:12 AM
7
07
12
AM
PDT
Folks, the above exchanges underscore the point from the clip in the OP. Subjectivists in the end are appealing to the common moral sense that we are indeed governed by OUGHT (while refusing to acknowledge where it points), or else they are manipulating that sense, or else they are implying the sort of appeal to force that is either direct or implicit in the point that courts and parliaments are backed up by guns. That is, it is dangerous to be right when government goes wrong. Now, too, above, there was an attempt to dismiss the question of grounding OUGHT. We can take it sufficiently from above that even the most explicitly subjectivist or relativist among us do invariably imply that some things are wrong -- ought not to be done. In so doing, they either end in amoral, might and manipulation makes right nihilism or else they acknowledge that we are under moral government in accordance with our nature (which implies what is good for us individually and -- per our social nature -- collectively). Manipulative or intimidating nihilism is its own self-referentially absurd refutation, we need not further debate such. We have excellent reason to accept the general testimony of humanity that we are under the government of OUGHT, manifest quite often in the testimony of conscience when not warped and readily discernible as Hooker pointed out in what was clipped from Hooker, who went on to highlight Aristotle. Let us refresh our memories again:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man’s hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [[Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [[Eccl. Polity, preface, Bk I, “ch.” 8, p.80]
But also, the issue of grounding of OUGHT arises, in light of the IS-OUGHT gap. That points onward to the valid part of Hume's challenge, that the only place where OUGHT can be grounded is in the foundations of reality. That is, we require an IS that simultaneously, adequately grounds OUGHT. Actually, that is not strong enough. Given moral government, there must be an IS that simultaneously adequately grounds OUGHT. After centuries of debates, it is patent that there is but one serious candidate: the inherently good creator God, a necessary and maximally great being who is worthy of ultimate loyalty and reasonable service by doing the good evident from our common nature as his morally governed creatures. And so it is no surprise to see in this light the force of the 2nd paragraph of the 1776 US DoI, as it rises beyond Leff's grand sez who to ground just government and respect for rights on the civil peace of justice under God who endows us with certain rights written into our nature. Consequently governments that fail to properly guard such genuine rights -- we may properly dismiss manipulation, word twisting, law-wrenching and intimidation as grounds for manufacturing novel "rights" out of thin air -- are subject to reformation or in extreme cases abolition followed by reconstitution on a sounder footing. Let us refresh our memories by direct citation:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness . . .
This is of course the charter and birth certificate of modern liberty and democracy. It is quite evident also that at the hands of radical activist relativists and subjectivists, there has been a steady erosion of the foundations and an increasing manipulation of law, courts and more to push agendas pivoting on interests grounded in amorality, nihilism, the inherently disordered, the economically and socially suicidal and just plain marches of folly. Such is not new, the tendency of democracies to be manipulated, fall under mob rule and worse has long been noted on, starting with the likes of an Alcibiades. What is new is the increasing undermining of rationality driven by lab coat clad evolutionary materialist ideology leading to confusion about the central importance of responsible freedom. So, modern democratic government in our civilisation faces the choice of reformation and renewal or else marching over the cliff into absurdity and the consequences of mass folly. And, it looks increasingly like the heirs of the Parthian horseback bowmen of old are getting ready to saddle up again. I think we would all profit from pondering the lessons of Ac 27: http://kairosfocus.blogspot.com/2013/01/acts-27-test-1-on-celebrating-new-year.html Oh, there's no real risk, a quick sail down the coast to Phoenix on a convenient south wind can take us all to a so much better port. Don't mind the ravings of that prisoner in chains with his neurotic visions of disaster. Ah, yes, here comes the breeze we want now . . . let's sail out. KFkairosfocus
July 2, 2015
July
07
Jul
2
02
2015
01:17 AM
1
01
17
AM
PDT
SB: “The natural moral law is, by definition, objective by virtue of the fact that nature is objective.”
That is one way to finish the discussion. Declare X is objective by definition. It is also completely incoherent.
If you don't understand that nature is an objective reality outside of and independent of human perception, then I cannot help you.StephenB
July 1, 2015
July
07
Jul
1
01
2015
11:05 PM
11
11
05
PM
PDT
SB: The fact that you, yourself, recognize slavery as an objective evil. If you had not recognized it, it would not have occurred to you to use it against Jefferson. REC
Seriously!?!
Yes, seriously---and obviously.
The argument is that I think something is wrong, therefore it is objectively wrong?
No, the argument is that, in spite of your claims that "all morality is subjective," you really do think that slavery is objectively wrong after all. You have just acknowledged the point again. You think slavery is objectively wrong.
Silly. Counterpoints: not every slave owner thought they were doing wrong.
Even Jefferson knew that slavery was wrong, and said so.
I think denying universal marriage is wrong.
Perhaps, but you can provide no rationale for thinking that denying universal marriage is wrong.
You think depriving some people of their rights is ok.
That is a very reckless statement and quite untrue. I believe everyone is entitled to basic human rights. The so-called right for one man to marry another man is not a basic human right.
Do you need a dictionary definition of “objective”?
No, but it seems evident that you do. First, you say that "all morality is subjective," then you say that slavery is "wrong," which means objectively wrong--as opposed to "wrong for you," which is subjective.StephenB
July 1, 2015
July
07
Jul
1
01
2015
10:53 PM
10
10
53
PM
PDT
Thanks for the reply, REC. If all morality is subjective, then of course you cannot tell me that my decision to discriminate against women, or enslave black people, is wrong. You can say you disapprove, but of course that means little to me, since I approve. Whether I am allowed to own slaves, then, is strictly a matter of votes -- majority rules -- or force -- might makes right. Your will prevails, or mine. But neither side can claim the moral high ground, as the moral landscape is perfectly flat. Similarly, if ISIS kidnaps & rapes little girls, they are not guilty morally. You disapprove, they approve. If they have the numbers and the guns, they win. Again, the moral landscape is featureless and flat. Professor Leff's essay brilliantly explained why this must be so if no ultimate God exists. He argues that this angst is inevitable, since modern people don't believe in God. In the end, all he can do is list things that we KNOW are evil, yet admit that there is no basis for this evaluation. You are absolutely right that theists argue about how to interpret scriptures. However, there is broad agreement on certain things, such as the Ten Commandments, the Golden Rule as explicated by Jesus, and other commands to help others in need, don't take revenge in our hands, forgive those who sin against us just as we have been forgiven. The problem isn't usually that we are ignorant of what God wants, it's just that we don't want to do it. Speaking personally, knowing that lust is wrong is different than never lusting; and knowing that hate is wrong is different than blessing the guy who just cut me off in traffic.anthropic
July 1, 2015
July
07
Jul
1
01
2015
10:29 PM
10
10
29
PM
PDT
anthropic @27 If I claim I objectively believe segregation is right, from God or from natural law or both, would your 'objective' interpretation trump mine**? My point is that ALL morality is subjective. Even if there is a God-given code, or natural law, your interpretation of those isn't infallible. Society has to work it out--sometimes painfully slowly, with glaring contradictions (e.g. Jefferson and his world: ALL men are created...). Claiming your morality is transcendent and objective doesn't help. History bears witness to this point. Do you think Jerry Fallwell or the Judges I cite below knew they were behaving wrong? Shouldn't they have access to the same objective truths you know anthropic? I'm familiar with Leff. Curiously, only the religious right refers to him as an atheist, in their selective reading of his works. **e.g.: PA Supreme Court: “[t]he natural law which forbids [racial intermarriage] and that social amalgamation which leads to a corruption of races, is as clearly divine as that which imparted to [the races] different natures.” The lower court which upheld Loving v. Virginia cited the fact that God had put the races on separate continents as proof “that he did not intend for the races to mix.” Jerry Falwell: ""If Chief Justice Warren and his associates had known God's word and had desired to do the Lord's will, I am quite confident that the 1954 decision would never have been made," ... "The facilities should be separate. When God has drawn a line of distinction, we should not attempt to cross that line." "The true Negro does not want integration.... He realizes his potential is far better among his own race." Falwell went on to announce that integration "will destroy our race eventually. In one northern city," he warned, "a pastor friend of mine tells me that a couple of opposite race live next door to his church as man and wife." http://wakeforestlawreview.com/2012/04/a-unique-religious-exemption-from-antidiscrimination-laws-in-the-case-of-gays-putting-the-call-for-exemptions-for-those-who-discriminate-against-married-or-marrying-gays-in-context/ http://www.thenation.com/article/agent-intolerance#REC
July 1, 2015
July
07
Jul
1
01
2015
08:51 PM
8
08
51
PM
PDT
Hey, REC. One question, and one comment. Question: If morality by its nature is subjective, then would you deny me the right to own a slave based on nothing more than your disapproval? Why should your subjective opinion trump my own? Comment: Yale Law Prof Arthur Leff published a famous discussion of law without a lawgiver. Leff, an atheist, concludes that we really do know some things are objectively wrong, but without belief in God there is no ultimate grounding for morality. As he puts it, without "thus saith the Lord", all human moral constructs (and laws) are vulnerable to the rejoinder, "Sez who?" Before going further, you might benefit by reading his remarkable essay, Unspeakable ethics, Unnatural Law here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/4531646/Arthur-Leff-Unspeakable-Ethics-Unnatural-Law#scribdanthropic
July 1, 2015
July
07
Jul
1
01
2015
08:32 PM
8
08
32
PM
PDT
1 2 3 4

Leave a Reply