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Proteins Fold As Darwin Crumbles

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A Review Of The Case Against A Darwinian Origin Of Protein Folds By Douglas Axe, Bio-Complexity, Issue 1, pp. 1-12

Proteins adopt a higher order structure (eg: alpha helices and beta sheets) that define their functional domains.  Years ago Michael Denton and Craig Marshall reviewed this higher structural order in proteins and proposed that protein folding patterns could be classified into a finite number of discrete families whose construction might be constrained by a set of underlying natural laws (1).  In his latest critique Biologic Institute molecular biologist Douglas Axe has raised the ever-pertinent question of whether Darwinian evolution can adequately explain the origins of protein structure folds given the vast search space of possible protein sequence combinations that exist for moderately large proteins, say 300 amino acids in length.  To begin Axe introduces his readers to the sampling problem.  That is, given the postulated maximum number of distinct physical events that could have occurred since the universe began (10150) we cannot surmise that evolution has had enough time to find the 10390 possible amino-acid combinations of a 300 amino acid long protein.

The battle cry often heard in response to this apparently insurmountable barricade is that even though probabilistic resources would not allow a blind search to stumble upon any given protein sequence, the chances of finding a particular protein function might be considerably better.  Countering such a facile dismissal of reality, we find that proteins must meet very stringent sequence requirements if a given function is to be attained.  And size is important.  We find that enzymes, for example, are large in comparison to their substrates.  Protein structuralists have demonstrably asserted that size is crucial for assuring the stability of protein architecture.

Axe has raised the bar of the discussion by pointing out that very often enzyme catalytic functions depend on more that just their core active sites.  In fact enzymes almost invariably contain regions that prep, channel and orient their substrates, as well as a multiplicity of co-factors, in readiness for catalysis.  Carbamoyl Phosphate Synthetase (CPS) and the Proton Translocating Synthase (PTS) stand out as favorites amongst molecular biologists for showing how enzyme complexes are capable of simultaneously coordinating such processes.  Overall each of these complexes contains 1400-2000 amino acid residues distributed amongst several proteins all of which are required for activity.

Axe employs a relatively straightforward mathematical rationale for assessing the plausibility of finding novel protein functions through a Darwinian search.  Using bacteria as his model system (chosen because of their relatively large population sizes) he shows how a culture of 1010 bacteria passing through 104 generations per year over five billion years would produce a maximum of 5×1023 novel genotypes.  This number represents the ‘upper bound’ on the number of new protein sequences since many of the differences in genotype would not generate “distinctly new proteins”.  Extending this further, novel protein functions requiring a 300 amino acid sequence (20300 possible sequences) could theoretically be achieved in 10366 different ways (20300/5×1023). 

Ultimately we find that proteins do not tolerate this extraordinary level of “sequence indifference”.  High profile mutagenesis experiments of beta lactamases and bacterial ribonucleases have shown that functionality is decisively eradicated when a mere 10% of amino-acids are substituted in conservative regions of these proteins.  A more in-depth breakdown of data from a beta lactamase domain and the enzyme chorismate mutase  has further reinforced the pronouncement that very few protein sequences can actually perform a desired function; so few in fact that they are “far too rare to be found by random sampling”.

But Axe’s landslide evaluation does not end here.  He further considers the possibility that disparate protein functions might share similar amino-acid identities and that therefore the jump between functions in sequence space might be realistically achievable through random searches.  Sequence alignment studies between different protein domains do not support such an exit to the sampling problem.  While the identification of a single amino acid conformational switch has been heralded in the peer-review literature as a convincing example of how changes in folding can occur with minimal adjustments to sequence, what we find is that the resulting conformational variants are unstable at physiological temperatures.  Moreover such a change has only been achieved in vitro and most probably does not meet the rigorous demands for functionality that play out in a true biological context.  What we also find is that there are 21 other amino-acid substitutions that must be in place before the conformational switch is observed. 

Axe closes his compendious dismantling of protein evolution by exposing the shortcomings of modular assembly models that purport to explain the origin of new protein folds.  The highly cooperative nature of structural folds in any given protein means that stable structures tend to form all at once at the domain (tertiary structure) level rather that at the fold (secondary structure) level of the protein.  Context is everything.  Indeed experiments have held up the assertion that binding interfaces between different forms of secondary structure are sequence dependent (ie: non-generic).  Consequently a much anticipated “modular transportability of folds” between proteins is highly unlikely. 

Metaphors are everything in scientific argumentation.  And Axe’s story of a random search for gem stones dispersed across a vast multi-level desert serves him well for illustrating the improbabilities of a Darwinian search for novel folds.  Axe’s own experience has shown that reticence towards accepting his probabilistic argument stems not from some non-scientific point of departure in what he has to say but from deeply held prejudices against the end point that naturally follows.  Rather than a house of cards crumbling on slippery foundations, the case against the neo-Darwinian explanation is an edifice built on a firm substratum of scientific authenticity.  So much so that critics of those who, like Axe, have stood firm in promulgating their case, better take note. 

Read Axe’s paper at: http://bio-complexity.org/ojs/index.php/main/article/view/BIO-C.2010.1

Further Reading

  1. Michael Denton, Craig Marshall (2001), Laws of form revisited, Nature Volume 410, p. 417
Comments
StephenB (356), "Trying to argue on behalf of a first cause with someone who thinks that something can come from nothing is like trying to solve a crime with someone who thinks that a murder can occur without a murderer." Nonsense. Murders are events in the classical world. Events in the quantum world require different scientific explanations, as has been made clear to you countless times. The trouble with you is that you think you can formulate all encompasing laws from classical world events and use them in the quantum realm and cosmological realm. You can't. "Such a person is impervious to reason and cannot be persuaded by any argument." No, it's the people who hold on to faith blindly that are impervious to reason and unpersuadable. Bizarrely, it's considered a virtue in some faiths.Gaz
July 19, 2010
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PaV (355), "Gaz: Don’t believe everything you read on the internet. Some things need looking up. Here’s a better account: http://www.messengersaintantho.....125IDRX=42" I don't see how it helps your argument to say I shouldn't believe everything I read on the internet, and for you to then give me another page off the internet! Anyway, reports of miraclkes ought to be treated with the utmost scepticism as natural explanations are commonplace. As far as John XXIII goes, I'll take the Reuters report as being more credible than your website any day. "As it turns out, earlier this year I was personally involved in the exhumation of a body. It was of a woman who had been dead and buried for no more than 5 years. California law requires that embalming take place/ or refrigeration. I am almost 100% certain that she was embalmed. When the fragile casket was opened, it revealed a once beautiful woman who now had lost more than half of her face—”Thou art dust, and unto dust you shall return.”" So you're not 100% sure. And even if she was embalmed, just how well was it done? "Here’s the actual statement bye the Vatican official Fr. Ciro Benedettini: “The body is well preserved which needs no comment or hypotheses concerning supernatural causes.”" And I'll take the Reuters report of medical embalming (amd also mention on wiki of a triple sealed casket). "IOW, we all should be able to figure it our ourselves. Right, Gaz?" That's what I did. Not sure what YOU did. "BTW, are you aware of the case of St. Sharbel, whose body—dead and buried body—was producing fluid. Is that sort of like having a missing arm grow back?" Er, no it isn't. One thing to expel fluid, another thing to grow a new limb. But if expelling fluid is so important to you, look at the well-documented miracle of Ganesh the Hindu elephant-god. Will you now convert to Hinduism? "I once saw the hand of saint martyred in England in the early 1600’s. It was kept in a glass repository. Did they have embalming back in the 1600’s?" Yes. they have had it since at least ancient Egyptian times - i.e. pre-Christianity. Perhaps we should worship Isis and Osiris? "I can go on and on like this Gaz." I know you can. But it isn't to any great effect. "OTOH, I can deny that I exist, if I want. But the objective fact is that I do exist. Gaz, you can deny anything you want. But is that really sensible." Not really, although it didn't stop Descartes. It's not a matter of denying anyhting at all, it's a matter of reasoned scepticism and looking at the evidence. By all objective basis, the miracles you've mentioned - and for that matter every other one I've come across - has a more rational explanation than "God did it".Gaz
July 19, 2010
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Phaedros (352), "This is a load of pseudo-science B.S. and you know it." Charming turn of phrase. So - it's "pseudo-science B.S." to come up with an explanation based on the known workings of the human brain, but not pseudo-science B.S. if it has a supernatural explanation (i.e. God helped me see the future)? Do you want to think about that one again?Gaz
July 19, 2010
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Phaedros (351), "Michael Shermer was on and he said that if the chances of this happening were 1 in a million that might seem a lot but in a country of say 300 million it could easily happen 300 times. The question is, however, what are the actual chances. I don’t thnik Shermer would know the answer to that." Nor, I suspect, do those who proclaim them "miracles". That's the problem: they should not be considered "miracles" until such analyses are done.Gaz
July 19, 2010
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TRRRUMPET!kairosfocus
July 18, 2010
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veilsofmaya: First of all thank for taking the time again to clarify your thought. I could go on commenting on many points, but perhaps you will agree that this thread is now too big and old. And probably I have already clarified my position in previous posts. So, I suggest that for the moment we stop here. I am sure we can deepen some parts of this interesting discussion in some new thread. I do believe that you are a good interlocutor, so I will be happy to take again some discussion with you as soon as possible (but not again on solipsism, I hope :) ). Best.gpuccio
July 18, 2010
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@kairosfocus and gpuccio Next, you claim that empirical observations supports a theory that a complex combination of chance, natural laws, environment, geographical features, etc. cannot explain the biological complexity we observe, therefore an intelligent agent is the best explanation. However, the problem here is threefold. First, it implies that darwinism claims to completely understand exactly how the complex combination of chance, natural laws, environment, geographical features, etc. translates in to exactly what we observe. Therefore you can clearly rule out natural processes as a cause. However, no one in biology actually makes this claim. Nor is this controversial. For example, do you deny that what we observe could be interpreted as the result of an undirected cause so complex we cannot fully understand it? Note: that you personally do not make such an interpretation does not mean others could not reasonable reach such an interpretation. Second, it makes the assumption that what we specifically observe is what this process was attempting to achieve and calculates the "odds" as such. This might work for a cause that exhibits intent, but is inappropriate for a undirected process. Third, AFAIK most variants of ID do not claim the entirety of biological complexity we observe was formed all at once or temporally arrived as via slight variations of existing forms that materialized out of thin air. Instead it suggests that the process is virtually identical to neo-darwinism with the exception of an intelligent designer specifying the exact time, order, locations and degree of change in genetic structures in parent organisms which eventually produced the specific biological complexity we observe. Even if the claim of materialization out of thin air is made, the resulting empirical observations would be virtually the same. While we have yet to discover exactly how this occurs, both Darwinism and ID agree that DNA, RNA and the entirety of genetic materials in an organism are the blueprint that actually defines the complexity and features we observe. We know this because each of us starts out as a single cell and mature into a complex organism rather than appear out of thin air. This third point is precisely what I mean by ID being a concluded elaboration of Darwinism. Specifically, darwinism provides a cause for biological complexity that is known to exists and is known to strongly influences the genetic structure of living organisms: the complex combination of chance, natural laws, environment, geographical features, etc. Furthermore it presents this same cause as the underlying principle which explains the specific biological complexity we observe. That is, the specific rates, features and structure of the features we observe are a direct result of this particular cause. On the other hand, ID provides an abstract possible cause for biological complexity: an inference to design in human beings. However, it's unclear that a one or more designers with the necessary means and opportunity to design what we observe existed 3.5+ billion years ago. Nor is it clear that designers would have continued to exist until at least 3-6 millions years ago to cause the final step that resulted in the complexity of live we observe today. Furthermore, no underlying principal is provided to explain the specific biological complexity we observe. In other words, that's just what the designer must have wanted, must have been capable of, etc. If the the designer could anticipate the10^300 possible folding geometries necessary to create one functional protein, causing the retina of an eye face one direction, rather than another, would appear to be child's play. Therefore, the human eye has a backward retina because thats what the designer just so happened to have wanted. But what would any designer make such a choice? Again, no underlying principle that explains this is provided by the ID. Note that, in the case of ID, the designer's abilities and capabilities are inferred by the specific biological complexity we observe. This is the opposite of Darwinism, in which the specific observed rates, features and structures are explained by the underlying principal of chance, natural laws, environment, geographical features, etc. This is similar to the contrast between realism and solipsism. Finally, in replacing a concrete cause with an abstract cause, ID not only negates the underling premise darwinism uses to explain the specific biological complexity we observe, but fails to present it's own underlying principle to replace it. In other words, what the theory of ID attempts to present is an "explanation" of why the biological complexity we observe is caused by a designer, rather than darwinism. But it never actually gets around to explaining the specific biological complexity we observe. As such, It merely explains away darwinism. This is for reasons that are transparent and obvious, It's possible all biological complexity we observe really could have been caused by an intelligent designer and the conclusion reached by ID may in fact be true. However, we can discard the particular theory currently presented by ID proponents because it reachers this conclusion via a bad explanation. Note that I do not have to claim to know ID is false to make this claim.veilsofmaya
July 17, 2010
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@kairosfocus and gpuccio The point I'm making here is that, when you take solipsism seriously, it implies the same empirical predictions as realism. If we were to only apply Occam's razor, solipsism would be favored as it wouldn't need to posit the existence of an external reality. Again, the reason why I'm not a solipsist because solipsism does not explain why the observations just happen to look like realism, but in actuality is internal. As a critical rationalist, I understand how the problem of induction and the incompleteness of empiricism has changed the way we solve problems. That is, any theory can make any predictions which can be "supported" by observations. For example, i could posit a theory which claims we can know we exist in a virtual reality simulation because the color of the sky is blue. Clearly, applying the scientific method would result in empirical observations that "support" this theory. However, I haven't presented a good explanation as to why the sky being blue is a good indicator that we exist in a virtual reality simulation. As such, it's a bad explanation. Furthermore, I could add a laundry list of other empirical predictions, such as the existence of leaves that are green and tree bark that is brown, that the earth's surface consists of 30% land and 70% water, etc. In fact, I could suggest that everything we observe is what one would predict if we existed in a virtual reality simulation. As such, I'd have a massive amount of empirical observations that "supports" my theory. But, yet again, we can discard this theory because it provides no underlying premise which explains why the specific things we observe indicates we exist in a virtual reality simulation. Furthermore, my theory becomes a convoluted elaboration of reality because it negates the explanation of realism, despite providing no explanation to replace it. This is despite the fact that an inference to human design suggests some vague intelligent agent could design a virtual reality simulator and choose to create an elaborate environment with interactions and incredible detail, etc. Clearly this is a logical possibility, but does this particular theory I've just presented above justify reaching this conclusion? No, it doesn't. It may be that we really do exist in a virtual reality simulation designed by an intelligent agent. The ultimate conclusion the theory reached may in fact be true. However, this particular theory I've just presented can be discarded because the specific means by which it reached this conclusion is via a bad explanation. Note that I do not have to claim to know we do not exist in a virtual reality simulation to say we are justified in discarding this particular theory. The key point here is that a theory may be wrong for all the right reasons or right for all the wrong reasons. We should not support a particular theory just because our intuition tells us the conclusion it reaches is true since there really is such a thing as a bad explanation and there are clear ways to identify them. Only if a theory with the right reasons comes along, should we accept it. However, it's very likely you think ID has reached the correct conclusion for reasons you think are "right" but are intentionally absent from the theory ID officially presents. This is because ID wants to be accepted as science and the very definition of the designer you presuppose prevents his inclusion in the theory. Calming science is biased for rejecting your intentionally incomplete theory is disingenuous.veilsofmaya
July 17, 2010
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StephenB the title of this new book by William Lane Craig reminded me of your "to the heart of the matter" debating style: "On Guard" by William Lane Craig - video interview http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcsT4ZAGnuk http://www.bgassociates.com/images/GMDC%20TOUCHE.jpg The book is available here: On Guard: Defending Your Faith with Reason and Precision by William Lane Craig, Lee Strobel http://www.amazon.com/Guard-Defending-Faith-Reason-Precision/sim/1434764885/2bornagain77
July 17, 2010
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--Gaz to BornAgain77: "Indeed. I think the origin of energy in the Big Bang is better explained by a quantum mechanical event, but of course I could be wrong. You’ve certainly given me no better explanation." Trying to argue on behalf of a first cause with someone who thinks that something can come from nothing is like trying to solve a crime with someone who thinks that a murder can occur without a murderer. Such a person is impervious to reason and cannot be persuaded by any argument.StephenB
July 16, 2010
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Gaz: Don't believe everything you read on the internet. Some things need looking up. Here's a better account: http://www.messengersaintanthony.com/messaggero/pagina_articolo.asp?IDX=125IDRX=42 As it turns out, earlier this year I was personally involved in the exhumation of a body. It was of a woman who had been dead and buried for no more than 5 years. California law requires that embalming take place/ or refrigeration. I am almost 100% certain that she was embalmed. When the fragile casket was opened, it revealed a once beautiful woman who now had lost more than half of her face---"Thou art dust, and unto dust you shall return." Here's the actual statement bye the Vatican official Fr. Ciro Benedettini: "The body is well preserved which needs no comment or hypotheses concerning supernatural causes." IOW, we all should be able to figure it our ourselves. Right, Gaz? BTW, are you aware of the case of St. Sharbel, whose body---dead and buried body---was producing fluid. Is that sort of like having a missing arm grow back? I once saw the hand of saint martyred in England in the early 1600's. It was kept in a glass repository. Did they have embalming back in the 1600's? I can go on and on like this Gaz. OTOH, I can deny that I exist, if I want. But the objective fact is that I do exist. Gaz, you can deny anything you want. But is that really sensible.PaV
July 16, 2010
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Gaz as well I couldn't help noticing this statement of yours: "Indeed. I think the origin of energy in the Big Bang is better explained by a quantum mechanical event," Well thanks for clearing that up LOL!!! Do you mind elaborating just a little on this "quantum mechanical event" that produced this most highly ordered occurrence of 1 in 10^10^123 for the initial entropy of the universe? In fact it is such a precise order that it gives all indications of being purposely intended by Almighty God to most reasonable men, thus I am truly interested as to why you (on the off chance you are reasonable) would even entertain the doubt that it was unintended.bornagain77
July 16, 2010
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Gaz I believe I found the fault in DuWell's reasoning , thus as well as in your reasoning, he states: "If it were true that information actually had to be transferred, backwards teleportation should not be possible. Recall there seems to be no possible mechanism for information transfer in backwards teleportation. Backwards teleportation is possible, so it seems that the inference made by Bennett, et al. is not a good one to make.” Now first and foremost, DuWell is NOT contesting the fact that a photon qubit is mathematically defined as infinite information, which is in fact my main point of interest to be made to you about a photon, i.e. he is just contesting that infinite information is actually teleported because he believes backward teleportation would be impossible if infinite information were to actually be teleported instantaneously. This is because because he has no known "mechanism" by which he can explain such a time defying process,,, Yet the fatal flaw in his reasoning for trying to rule out Bennett's inference, for instantaneous information transfer, is found on the bottom of page 10 or 11 where he states: "On the assumption that information can't be transferred back in time, this eliminates any possible channel for information transfer from the(sic) Alice's photon to Bob's. Excuse me gaz but information is shown to be completely transcendent of any material basis or space-time considerations by the refutation of the hidden variable arguments, as well as by the work done in quantum erasure experiments where "backwards in time" events are normal, thus his starting presupposition that it would violate some "backwards in time" constraint is in fact flawed in its basic premise. i.e. He does not realize he is actually dealing with a entity that is completely transcendent of space-time matter-energy in the first place. i.e. he cannot refute something that is not bound by space and time with a principle derived from the constraints of space and time! There is another flaw in his thinking, but what is pointed out is enough for now. i.e. You can go with the summation of Duwell's college paper if you want but ALL my money is riding on Bennett's interpretation of his own work since it is in fact the horse that brung us to teleportation in the first place.bornagain77
July 16, 2010
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"On seeing the future: I had it too, after a two-month spell of depression when a loved relative died, 20 years ago, but I attributed it (correctly, according to a psychologist friend of mine) as a short circuit of my short term memory into long term whilst the mind was disturbed. It happened regularly, then it disappeared a while later." This is a load of pseudo-science B.S. and you know it.Phaedros
July 16, 2010
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Gaz- "That happens even to atheists." I find it funny when people say this, as though it shouldn't happen to atheists or something. Anyways, I was watching a thing on 20/20 or Dateline about some cancer recoveries that were being reported as miracles. Michael Shermer was on and he said that if the chances of this happening were 1 in a million that might seem a lot but in a country of say 300 million it could easily happen 300 times. The question is, however, what are the actual chances. I don't thnik Shermer would know the answer to that.Phaedros
July 16, 2010
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PaV, Thanks for your replies, but as an example I'll let the reported words of the Vatican speak for me about John XXIII: http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/vennari2.html The other events you mention are also unremarkable. As for Lourdes miracles: people wh are ill - even very seriously ill - do, sometimes, make spontaneous recoveries that doctors can't explain. That happens even to atheists. Now, if amputees grew new limbs at Lourdes, then I'd look again at the evidence, but until then.... On seeing the future: I had it too, after a two-month spell of depression when a loved relative died, 20 years ago, but I attributed it (correctly, according to a psychologist friend of mine) as a short circuit of my short term memory into long term whilst the mind was disturbed. It happened regularly, then it disappeared a while later. Sorry - still no mobjective evidence for God....Gaz
July 16, 2010
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bornagain77 (346), "Well Gaz, If you can see no need for a transcendent cause to explain the origination of photons in the big bang, and you can’t see that information is shown to be exactly the entity that is sufficient to explain that transcendent cause, there really is nothing I can do for you anymore." Indeed. I think the origin of energy in the Big Bang is better explained by a quantum mechanical event, but of course I could be wrong. You've certainly given me no better explanation. And whilst I appreciate your earnest attempts, I don't think you'll do it by giving me evidence in a paper by Duwell and then backing away from Bennett when I point out Duwell doesn't support you! Thanks anyway though, it's been a blast as usual.Gaz
July 16, 2010
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Gaz: Two more things: Pope John XXIII's body lies in a glass sarcophagus in St. Peter's in Rome. It's incorrupt. It's been 47 years since his death. St. Pio (Padre Pio) lies incorrupt in San Giovanni Rotundo, near Foggia, Italy (southern Italy). He died in 1968. For 50 years he had the stigmata; the five wounds of Christ. He was put into the hospital so that doctors could determine if the stigmata was the result of hysteria. It wasn't. He only consumed the sacred host and wine celebrated at Mass for the 30-40 days he was there. When they weighed him on the way out, they found that he weighed a pound more. The saint quipped, "I guess if I want to lose weight, I'll have to start eating." To deny God's existence, you MUST explain these instances using only material forces. Good luck!PaV
July 16, 2010
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Gaz: "The heavens proclaim the glory of the Lord." The world, that it exists, and its wonderful awesomeness, are "objective" evidence of God. Now, when an artist paints, he oftentimes leaves a signature mark on the canvass. But sometimes its hidden. And yet the experienced eye can spot the work. There isn't some formation of clouds that is going to spell out: I'm God. I really exist. Now, what other kinds of evidence, objective evidence exists for God? Miracles. To this day, in Lourdes, France, for example, there are documented cases of physical healing. Where I live, there was a case of a miraculous healing that lead to the canonization of a 16th century priest about six years later. This all happened no more than 20 years ago. How do we know it was a miracle? Because he was in a hospital, and from the evening before to the morning after, he went from the point of death to sitting up in bed eating. None of the doctors could explain it. Then there is the Shroud of Turin. Scientists can't explain its origins (and the carbon-14 testing done 30 years ago is now considered to be inaccurate because of known reweaving done to the shroud in the 15th century). Nor can it explain the image on Juan Diego's tilma (a woolen body blanket)---which is now almost 400 years old (and formed in almost the very same fashion as that of the Shroud) There's simply no known human means of forming these images. Science stands before them mute. But for me, personally, I figured out God existed when I was five. I was struck with the fact of my own existence. I understood that there was a time when I didn't exist. And, basically, reasoned my way back to the First Cause. (with mom and dad's help, of course) There I was, five years old, asking my parents how to pray. Then there are my own personal experiences of God found in prayer---some certainly exceptional. And, just to add to the grab-bag, there was an experience of "fore-seeing" what would happen minutes before it happened---and fore-seeing "live, and in color", the real deal. This happened when I was twenty, while standing in a chemistry lab. Nothing 'religious' about it. But, how could the future be present before it is present, unless that future is present within some living object; and we call that living object, God. You want to "know" God like you "know" the computer screen you're now looking at---objectively (you make an "object" of it; you treat it like an "object"). But God is only known through faith. To "know" God like your computer screen would be to enable you to manipulate God just like you can manipulate your computer screen. And, thus, God would no longer be God. We approach God through the "darkness" of faith. This is an open invitation always made to us by God. I once was in England, at Windsor Castle, looking through the sarcophagi in St. George's Chapel. There was one with the name of Bonaparte. (It apparently was some cousin of Napoleon's) I thought to myself, "how did this end up here?" On the side was an inscription that read something like this: "Lord, give me faith; for without faith, I cannot pray; and without prayer; I cannot come to know You; and without knowing You, I cannot be saved." (From memory, so if someone can correct this, that would be great.) If you would have asked me, I would have said that a Bonaparte didn't have a prayer of ever ending up within Windsor Castle, inside St. George's Chapel.PaV
July 16, 2010
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Well Gaz, If you can see no need for a transcendent cause to explain the origination of photons in the big bang, and you can't see that information is shown to be exactly the entity that is sufficient to explain that transcendent cause, there really is nothing I can do for you anymore.bornagain77
July 16, 2010
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Gaz as well, though not to completely undermine the author's objections against Bennet, Bennet's team happens to be the team who actually brought teleportation to reality; In 1993 an international group of six scientists, including IBM Fellow Charles H. Bennett, confirmed the intuitions of the majority of science fiction writers by showing that perfect teleportation is indeed possible in principle, but only if the original is destroyed. http://www.research.ibm.com/quantuminfo/teleportation/ Thus, me being a "proof is in the pudding" type guy, Since the author (Aemond Duwell) has in fact not physically teleported anything, but only objected from what can be termed a theoretical position of interpretation while working for a PhD in physics: http://www.uni-konstanz.de/ppm/People.htm Then I am much more apt to take the opinion of the man who brought teleportation to light. But in case you think Duwell's approach to quantum mechanics is in any way friendly to materialism/atheism I suggest you read his profile closely: Armond Duwell: Armond Duwell graduated with a BS in physics from Georgia Tech in 1998 and recently received his Ph.D. in History and Philosophy of Science from the University of Pittsburgh. His dissertation was entitled: "How to teach an old dog new tricks: quantum information, quantum computation, and the philosophy of physics". Armond's current work focuses on quantum information theory. The physicist Chris Fuchs has made the radical claim that probabilities in quantum mechanics are actually best interpreted as degrees of belief. His claim is that somehow the formalism of quantum mechanics is as much about what we believe as subjects as it is about the objective physical world. If that is true, it is profound. Armond is currently interested in classifying which elements of quantum mechanics are subjective and which are objective, and providing and assessing arguments for various classification schemes,,, http://www.uni-konstanz.de/ppm/People.htmbornagain77
July 16, 2010
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bornagain77, I fail to see how your 342 provides objective evidence for God. It isn't mentioned anywhere within the articles you cite, which are articles involving quantum physics and the possible application thereof rather than God. It does not show that a "photon is made of infinite information", it shows what was already known, i.e. that photons exist in a superposition of states which can have a range of values (theoretically infinite) until the wavefunction collapses when the photon is observed. Where God comes from in your analysis of these articles remains obscure.Gaz
July 16, 2010
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And while it is true that it is very difficult to compute how proteins fold, that is not a problem which cannot be solved algorithmically in finite time: indeed, a lot of people are trying to solve it, and making progress. It just requires very big computational resources, but certainly not infinite resources.
I see there's a new thread on this subject, so I'm going to watch it and other relevant threads. This one has become too long for me to load continuously. As for design being a tractable problem, I would agree that it is tractable to evolutionary algorithms. It will never, however, yield the kind of generalizations that typify most human engineering. The problem is complexity: the combination of sensitivity to initial conditions, and the sheer quantity of starting points and branches. Protein folding is just the beginning of the problem. You have to solve for all the emergent properties of combinations, followed by the problem of competition, ecology and environmental change.Petrushka
July 16, 2010
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Gaz, despite the author's objection, there is another line of evidence that, overturns his doubts, and concretely suggests that "specified" infinite information is what the photon qubit is actually made of: More supporting evidence for the transcendent nature of information, and how it interacts with energy, is found in these following studies: Single photons to soak up data: Excerpt: the orbital angular momentum of a photon can take on an infinite number of values. Since a photon can also exist in a superposition of these states, it could – in principle – be encoded with an infinite amount of information. http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/7201 They provided proof of principle here: Ultra-Dense Optical Storage - on One Photon Excerpt: Researchers at the University of Rochester have made an optics breakthrough that allows them to encode an entire image's worth of data into a photon, slow the image down for storage, and then retrieve the image intact. http://www.physorg.com/news88439430.html This following experiment clearly shows information is not an "emergent property" of any solid material basis as is dogmatically asserted by some materialists: Converting Quantum Bits: Physicists Transfer Information Between Matter and Light Excerpt: A team of physicists at the Georgia Institute of Technology has taken a significant step toward the development of quantum communications systems by successfully transferring quantum information from two different groups of atoms onto a single photon. http://gtresearchnews.gatech.edu/newsrelease/quantumtrans.htm It is also interesting to note that a Compact Disc crammed with information on it weighs exactly the same as a CD with no information on it whatsoever. Thus Gaz, here we are with three lines of evidence very strongly showing that infinite information is what is what a photon is actually made of. i.e. Information is NOT a "emergent property" of any materialistic basis as atheists dogmatically assert (at least if they are consistent)! We also have evidence in teleportation experiments, and even in refutation of hidden variables, showing that information is completely transcendent of energy, as well as exercising direct dominion of energy. thus Gaz "implemented" transcendent information is the only known entity of physics that is able to explain the origination of energy in the Big Bang. You can quibble whether it is exactly "infinite" information per each photon qubit or not, I really don't care since the evidence is clear for it being transcendent information, in the first place, at the basis of the photon qubit,bornagain77
July 16, 2010
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gpuccio (340), Thanks for the post and the sentiments in it. Incidentally I appreciate your posts too. Despite the fact we probably come to different conclusions I have to say I agree with all of your post here with the possible exception of the second to last paragraph about NDEs being convincing. The very best to you and yours, both for now and the future - whatever it holds and however far it may stretch!Gaz
July 16, 2010
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Gaz: I have never considered belief in God as an issue really relevant here, but just because I like your posts, I will say a couple of words. First of all, I don't believe that belief in God (or, if we want, belief that God does not exist) is ever the result of merely cognitive or rational arguments. the cognitive aspect is important, and it can and should guide the personal search of each of us, but there is no doubt that such a fundamental choice in worldview is determined also by other components (feeling, intuition, experiences, and whatever). And I think that it's right that way. That said, I deeply respect those atheists who have reached sincerely and serenely their convictions, and who sincerely put them to the test not only of their reason, but also of their personal life. Which is exactly the same feeling I have for religious people who do the same. Fear of God's punishment is, IMO, a very bad motive, either for believing in God or for not believing in Him. That does not mean that it is an uncommon motive. I would like to share your conviction that fear of punishment is not a strong motivation, both in atheists and in religious people, but I am not completely optimistic about that. But I am sure that you are really sincere when you say that it was never an issue for you, and I am happy of that. Love, love for truth, and a deep sincere need of the soul are certainly better motives for our worldviews, whatever they may be. I hope and believe that they are the foundation for yours. Finally, a couple of words anout NDEs. Just a friendly advice: don't underestimate the huge amount of information about that kind of phenomena. They are really interesting, and IMO often very convincing. I don't think anybody should believe in God only because of that: first of all they are at most evidence for personal survival, and not necessarily for the existence of God, and second, as I have said, nobody will ever believe in God only because there are evidences. If that were the case, I think everybody would spontaneously believe in God, because I really believe that the evidences are everywhere. So, NDEs are just one more example. But they are a very interesting example. And one rich of information. If you read the serious literature about them, maybe you will find that there is something worthwhile in it. One important mark of a good worldview, be it religious or atheistic, is remaining open to glimpses of truth, wherever we can find them. I sincerely wish you that your worldview may happily accompany you throughout your life.gpuccio
July 16, 2010
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bornagain77 (337), I don't see how you consider this objective evidence of God. The paper you link to states: "Concept 2. is used by Bennett, et al. Recall that they infer that since an infinite amount of information is required to specify a qubit, an infinite amount of information must be transferred to teleport. Thus, their explanatory project is to provide a mechanism whereby all the information required to specify a qubit is actually transferred. There seems to be no reason to make the inference that motivates this explanatory project. In fact, there is reason to doubt that it is a good one to make. If it were true that information actually had to be transferred, backwards teleportation should not be possible. Recall there seems to be no possible mechanism for information transfer in backwards teleportation. Backwards teleportation is possible, so it seems that the inference made by Bennett, et al. is not a good one to make." By my reading, this suggests that the model whereby infinite information is required to sspecifiy a qubit is not actually a good model (and the author goes on to suggest Concept 3 is the better model). This paper actually appears to go AGAINST your argument. Where does this leave your objective evidence for God? Re: your 338: I'm afraid Job is not objective evidence for God either.Gaz
July 16, 2010
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Gaz as far as man never being able to create light from infinite information,,, Job 38:19-20 "What is the way to the abode of light? And where does darkness reside? Can you take them to their places? Do you know the paths to their dwellings?bornagain77
July 16, 2010
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Gaz you state: "for example, assessing what the near death experiences actually are: are they real events or are they internal perceptions of an individual brain, such as distorted memories (like dreams) arising as neural pathways change and shut down?" But that point was addressed specifically here: Near Death Experiences – Scientific Evidence – Dr Jeffery Long – Melvin Morse M.D. – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4454627 and here: The Day I Died – Part 4 of 6 – The NDE of Pam Reynolds – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045560 And to top all that off for the "physical" validity of NDE's that I presented, which you did not bother to look at, I also showed you a study showing over 90% of blind people "seeing" in their NDE's,,, That is pretty darn good objective evidence! Which is a lot more than I can say for any of the "objective" evidence that has ever been presented to me for neo-Darwinian evolution You say you wanted objective evidence for God and I presented this,,, ID - The Anthropic Hypothesis http://lettherebelight-77.blogspot.com/2009/10/intelligent-design-anthropic-hypothesis_19.html but, again you can't be bothered to read anything and say you want just one piece of evidence out of the overwhelming wealth of evidence that makes the case in the paper,,, So for just one piece of evidence from the paper I present: Explaining Information Transfer in Quantum Teleportation: Armond Duwell †‡ University of Pittsburgh Excerpt: In contrast to a classical bit, the description of a (photon) qubit requires an infinite amount of information. The amount of information is infinite because two real numbers are required in the expansion of the state vector of a two state quantum system (Jozsa 1997, 1) --- Concept 2. is used by Bennett, et al. Recall that they infer that since an infinite amount of information is required to specify a (photon) qubit, an infinite amount of information must be transferred to teleport. http://www.cas.umt.edu/phil/faculty/duwell/DuwellPSA2K.pdf The reason this evidence presents "objective" evidence for God is that information is shown to be transcendent of matter-energy space-time in the teleportation experiment. Yet we know that matter-energy space-time were created by a transcendent cause in the big bang since space-time matter-energy were in fact brought into existence at the Big Bang. That it would be found to take infinite information to "mathematically define" the (photon) qubit is in fact exactly what we would expect to find if energy, which is the primary "material" component of this universe, were in fact created by the infinite, and perfect, transcendent mind of God since only God has access to infinite information so as to implement in such a precise way as to make a photon arise.bornagain77
July 16, 2010
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Gaz: As the above linked documents in a fair amount of detail I have long since done so. It is therefore sad to see your resort to the rhetoric of turnabout, as that is precisely a classic symptom of the problem of selective hyperskepticism. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
July 16, 2010
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