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Weikart-Ruse Debate in STANFORD REVIEW

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This just published at the STANFORD REVIEW:

The Impact of Darwinism
By Tristan Abbey

With the premiere of Ben Stein’s new movie, Expelled, many people are pondering the long-term impact of Darwinism on society. We touched base with two experts on the subject. Arguing that Darwinism has had a largely positive impact on society is Michael Ruse, the Lucyle T. Werkmeister Professor of Philosophy at Florida State University. Arguing that Darwinism has had a largely negative impact on society is Richard Weikart, Professor of History at California State University, Stanislaus. . . .

ACCORDING TO WEIKART: “[I]n the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries most leading Darwinists, including Darwin, tended to stress human inequality more than equality, in part because evolution requires biological variability. Darwin stated in The Descent of Man: “At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace throughout the world the savage races.” By the mid-twentieth century and thereafter most Darwinists abandoned racial inequality, stressing the common ancestry of all humans. . . .”

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Comments
I misposted above.... remove it if you can- it is supposed to go on thenew post by scordova... I want to change it a little so just erase this one if possible.Frost122585
April 29, 2008
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Cordova, Good article. It's good to see that people are back on the march. You know, we do live in America where people have a right to be heard and express what they think within reason. A theory as sketchy as Darwin’s, which chalks up life to a random process of sorts that requires a schizophrenic foundational theory of "multi-universes" (which there is not a shred of evidence for) in order to account for the complexity, specification and diversity of life, is to say the least quite worthy of some heavy criticism. Not to mention the fact that Darwinists themselves are in constant disputes about the character of the evolutionary theory they think is right. Moreover, IDists have a completely separate view of the entire matrix of historical data. And they say there is no controversey?! And I remind us all that in this country the majority rules but the minority's rights are to be protected. Most people in this country for whatever reason DONT think DE is the full answer to life’s origins. So let them teach it! The problem is because of radical politics and a very agenda driven media, people have been purposely misinformed about ID. If people really understood what ID was in fact about, and the scientific methods used to come to some to its conclusions, people would realize that ID is far from creationism and a lot closer to pure empiricle science then they they are being told. What Judge Jones did was disgraceful but its good so see that people are not giving up on the good and most important fight. On another thread last night people posted a few good G.Orwell quotes. The first with thanks to JPCollado “If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.” And then these two from myself- “Whoever is winning at the moment will always [seem] to be invincible.” and “Sometimes the first duty of intelligent men is the restatement of the obvious.” I think, we need not bow down to a politic driven mainstream society with plans that are reminiscent of 1984. People have a right to know and hear the truth and in the case of DE the dissent comming from all angles ecxcpet the government controlled education establishment.Frost122585
April 29, 2008
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Larry Fafarman, I like your antipathy to Darwin—but when you take America to task for its support of Israel—I and many millions of others won’t go there. Let’s tell the children the truth!! The hatred of Israel is completely irrational, based on hateful propaganda, and so what is needed is not passive acquiescence but fearless confrontation with truth—for which some might be interested in reading this amazing piece. Judaism never noisily announces a “turn the other cheek” philosophy, yet Israel is the only nation that in practice does just that. Here—maybe a couple of Golda Meir quotes are in order:
We can forgive you for killing our sons. But we will never forgive you for making us kill yours.
Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.
Why is it that Muslims can live in peace as full citizens in the Jewish state but the whole world insists that any Muslim state must be completely Judenrein? Yes, indeed, we’ve gotten off topic—but I just couldn’t let this ride.Rude
April 29, 2008
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Two Orwell Quotes I think are applicable to ID. "Whoever is winning at the moment will always seem to be invincible." and "Sometimes the first duty of intelligent men is the restatement of the obvious."Frost122585
April 29, 2008
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Ooooooooh... I love that quote!StephenA
April 29, 2008
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God bless tribune. And before I go to bed, let me just part with another G.Orwell quote: "If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear."JPCollado
April 28, 2008
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Say goodnight JP.tribune7
April 28, 2008
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Jerry: "Before people keep on condemning what the US has done" A little clarification, Jerry. Decent American people don't do the things that organizations like the CIA has done. This is not the fault of the USA but of macabre un-elected men (and some women) who are running the show with their dirty little dollars and shadowy influence.JPCollado
April 28, 2008
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tribune: "JP — Exactly! No Iraqi can hold office without the approval of the U.S. which is working in cahoots with Iran. It’s as clear as day now." Yup, you got it. Iran too. CIA activities in IranJPCollado
April 28, 2008
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tribune: Do you believe Dick Cheney brought the Twin Towers down through timed explosives?" I don't know about that, but he is affiliated with a group that showers praises on a totalitarian government that is capable of doing just that to its own people. Certainly anything is possible in the backstabbing world of politics. And synthetic terror is not something new. Ever heard of false flagging? Wikipedia again: "False flag operations are covert operations conducted by governments, corporations, or other organizations, which are designed to appear as if they are being carried out by other entities." I guess you can say that in a purely darwinian world, the big and strong does eat the small and weak.JPCollado
April 28, 2008
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Move to close thread:)William Wallace
April 28, 2008
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JP -- Exactly! No Iraqi can hold office without the approval of the U.S. which is working in cahoots with Iran. It's as clear as day now.tribune7
April 28, 2008
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JPCollado: "Can anyone in Iraq vote for any nominee without the approval of the US?" tribune: 'Well, yes." According to the wiki website article you provided:
An American private intelligence agency has suggested that the process of "Iraqising" the party is supported by Iran to help the United States to stabilise Iraq, prior to an "honorable exit".
To help the US? Did this come before or after the assassination(!) of Baqir al-Hakim? Seeing that wikipedia has been used as a reference in this instance, let us proceed with the subject concerning the CIA's involvement in Asia, but for our present purposes, Iraq.
In 1963, the United States backed a coup against the government of Iraq headed by General Qasim, who five years earlier had deposed the Western-allied Iraqi monarchy. Roger Morris, a former National Security Council official who became a journalist, states "The C.I.A.'s 'Health Alteration Committee,' as it was tactfully called, sent Qassim [Kassim in the article] monogrammed, poisoned handkerchief, though the potentially lethal gift either failed to work or never reached its victim." {...} According to Roger Morris, CIA helped the new Baath Party government in ridding the country of suspected leftists and Communists. The Baathist government used lists of suspected Communists and other leftists provided by the CIA, to systematically murder opponents Iraq's educated elite--killings in which Saddam Hussein himself is said to have participated. The victims included hundreds of doctors, teachers, technicians, lawyers and other professionals as well as military and political figures. SOURCE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Iraq
JPCollado
April 28, 2008
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Before people keep on condemning what the US has done, one should reflect on what the opposition did. Communist governments managed to kill about 100 million in the 20th century and essentially eliminate religion as part of most of what they controlled. Maybe what was waiting for these countries if we hadn't intervened was something similar to Cuba. Or maybe it would have grown to the countries next to them. Or maybe it would have been worse.jerry
April 28, 2008
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leo, My apology for misinterpreting your comments.jerry
April 28, 2008
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Well, it may be the SpecOps training I received in Panama back in 1992, dealing, of all things, with helping to route “Colombian resistance”, whatever that means… Actually, I can't even guess what that sentence means. Are you saying we are/were actively seeking to undermine the democratic government of Columbia or are you saying we are/were seeking to support it against the narco-terrorist and leftist groups seeking to undermine it through kidnappings and random acts of terror. And if the latter are you objecting? But one more thing: do you believe Saddam was not a creation of the CIA? I believe that Saddam was not a creation of the CIA. Do you believe Dick Cheney brought the Twin Towers down through timed explosives?tribune7
April 28, 2008
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tribune: "I am saying that the United States has a much smaller role with regard to the strife in these countries than you seem to think" Well, it may be the SpecOps training I received in Panama back in 1992, dealing, of all things, with helping to route "Colombian resistance", whatever that means...but who am I to complain. There are others more qualified to tell the story I guess. But one more thing: do you believe Saddam was not a creation of the CIA?JPCollado
April 28, 2008
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So you believe, in true Christian spirit, that what was done through Pinochet was justified? In true Christian spirit why are you judging Pinochet? Or the CIA for that matter? Can anyone in Iraq vote for any nominee without the approval of the US? Well, yes.tribune7
April 28, 2008
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I don’t know if you are implying that the CIA has or had no role in the creation of strife I am saying that the United States has a much smaller role with regard to the strife in these countries than you seem to think AND I am also saying that the United States has a much greater role in ending the strife in these countries than some seem able to conceive much less concede. The reason why the U.S. is "hated" -- envied is actually the more appropriate word -- is because we are big and we are free. It is really hard to believe that we are "hated" since half the world seems to want to move in with us. The people who truly hate us are the academics and foreign bureaucrats who think our existence sets a bad example for the sheep they want to keep pacified.tribune7
April 28, 2008
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tribune&: "El Salvador is a democracy, now btw. As is Nicaragua and Chile." So you believe, in true Christian spirit, that what was done through Pinochet was justified? And talking about democracy, would you call it such when, let's take Iraq for example, candidates are "pre-selected" before the general voting process? Can anyone in Iraq vote for any nominee without the approval of the US?JPCollado
April 28, 2008
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Hello tribune7, I don't know if you are implying that the CIA has or had no role in the creation of strife in these politically sensitive and fragile countries.JPCollado
April 28, 2008
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...and just in case you missed the first part http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJkBTVyLAUU May God protect Alex Jones! In times of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act - George OrwellJPCollado
April 28, 2008
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extensive ‘psych-ops’ to help bring down the government of Salvador Allende How? By encouraging Allende to put restrictions on speech and confiscate farms and ignore the courts? a drawn out civil war in El Salvador, where leftist rebels were in conflict with the US-backed right-wing gov’t. Why are you implying we were wrong to support the government? El Salvador is a democracy, now btw. As is Nicaragua and Chile. How's Cuba doing, btw?tribune7
April 28, 2008
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Leo, I think you raise an insightful question. I hafta admit that I also doubted your sincerity until you acknowledged the influence of Darwin on Nazi ideology. That helped me place your question in the proper perspective. I'm not sure what the answer is, though. I'm guessing you'd get a different answer in this forum than you'd get in a pro-DE forum...if your question would be taken seriously at all in that venue. I'll take a preliminary stab at responding. The DE people I know who tend more toward "preserving life" than "destroying life" seem to find more meaning in common descent than in natural selection. The postings of the last few days have led me to conclude that Hitler, at least, tended to emphasize natural selection over common descent (if he believed in the latter at all). I have a great deal of admiration for those who respect life in all its forms due to their perception of our common ancestry. To me, common ancestry per se carries no moral imperative though...unlike the notion that all of life proceeds from the hand of a common creator who has charged us humans with responsibility to care for it. Nevertheless, if they can end up at the same place I do by following a different narrative, I am not going to criticize them. But I do recognize how tenuous their conclusions are, and the fact that others can use the very same narrative to arrive at very different conclusions.Lutepisc
April 28, 2008
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One of the most courageous Americans of the 21st century goes on to give some air to the subject of eugenics and the connection with Darwin in his most excellent documentary ENDGAME: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=174QiTrzFV8JPCollado
April 28, 2008
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...not that the CIA has not resorted to troop-training, arms smuggling, torture, drug trafficking, assassinations and terrorism. It's all Israel you see. She is the one with the reputation for covert interference in the affairs of nations around the globe, with a long tradition of meddling in the politics of Latin America, forcing regime change and disposing of disliked leaders. You know, like in 1954, with the destabilization of Guatemala and the whole deal with the US-multinational United Fruits…. or 1961, with the “removal” of Rafel Trujillo; or 1973, when the CIA carried out terrorist acts, trained and armed fascist paramilitary groups and carried out extensive ‘psych-ops’ to help bring down the government of Salvador Allende. General Pinochet became dictator, and the CIA helped him to liquidate thousands of perceived radicals; or during the ‘80s, when the US became embroiled in a drawn out civil war in El Salvador, where leftist rebels were in conflict with the US-backed right-wing gov’t. On and and on and on the list goes. It’s all Israel you see.JPCollado
April 28, 2008
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Dave, It's all well and nice to quote Jesus on casting the first stone. But isn't this fundamentally based on the idea that we can cast stones as Hitler? If by saying Bavarian Knitting clubs influenced Hitler, we are "throwing stones" at the knitters, isn't our basis of condemnation itself a person? Now, we have come to a kind of agreement that "throwing stones at Hitler" is not only acceptable, but we jeopardize our standing as a good citizen for even framing it in that light. However, making Hitler a discontinuous and singular demonic figure is neither naturalistic nor, specifically, is it Christian. However, we've long known of "tyrants". And calling a suspected tyrant a "tyrant" is not beyond the bounds of good Christianity, especially if we are somewhat measured in our assessment. I think eugenics plays a role, but so does the nihilistic narrative that reads everything as strategies of survival: Existing to further exist. I think this is arguably as horrible as any other element, but much more subtle and insipid. Hitler's POV to me is that without external expectations on the creature Man, he is free to pursue his self-interest--or the interest of his "breed"--in whatever manner necessary.jjcassidy
April 28, 2008
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JPCollado: "the CIA meddling into the affairs of other countries doesn’t help either. In fact, this MAY be the sole reason for much of the hatred the US has garnered throughout the world" Larry Farfarman: "Wrong — the US is hated for other reasons, and the extreme one-sidedness of US support for Israel is one of them." So that is why South America is turning heads over heels against the US....Israel, eh?JPCollado
April 28, 2008
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In fact, this MAY be the sole reason for much of the hatred the US has garnered throughout the world.
Wrong -- the US is hated for other reasons, and the extreme one-sidedness of US support for Israel is one of them.
Yeah, if only all our presidents weren’t as even-handed as Jimmy Carter. Why those Iranians would never have even dreamed of taking those hostages at the embassy.
Jimmy Carter was not to blame for the Iran hostage crisis. In that crisis, the US even had the support of Iraq and Libya's Gadafi (sp?).Larry Fafarman
April 28, 2008
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Just for the record Larry Fafarman, I don't have any of those things. Didn't even know when his birthday was until someone on this site wrote about it. The only Darwin memorabilia I own is a copy of On the Origin of Species and I suspect that is more than what most 'Darwinists' own. Perhaps I have to go shopping, maybe get myself one of those silly Darwin fish with the legs...leo
April 28, 2008
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