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Is Eugenie Scott an Atheist?

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This question was posed in one of the earlier threads on this blog. According to the following article, “Scott describes herself as atheist but does not discount the importance of spirituality.” Scott never asked the San Francisco Chronicle to retract this designation of atheism.

EUGENIE SCOTT
Berkeley scientist leads fight to stop teaching of creationism
Monica Lam, Special to The Chronicle
Friday, February 7, 2003
©2003 San Francisco Chronicle | Feedback

URL: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/02/07/EB75914.DTL

One morning in September, Eugenie Scott of Berkeley got a long-distance phone call from an alarmed parent in Cobb County, Ga. The board of education there was considering allowing creationism to be taught side-by-side with evolution as an alternative, scientific theory on human origins.

Scott sat at her desk, beneath a portrait of Charles Darwin in an office littered with books about evolution, models of hominid skulls and a map of the human genome, and typed up a speech she has delivered many times before. While students’ religious views should be respected, she wrote, schools should allow only science to be taught in science classes.

Two hours before the board’s vote, Scott e-mailed the speech to the parent to deliver to the board. But that board had already put disclaimers against evolution in the science textbooks, saying “evolution is a theory, not a fact” and that it should be “critically considered.”

Scott, the director of the National Center for Science Education in Oakland, has been fighting this particular battle for more than 15 years, and it has taken her around the country — from small towns in California to the deep South.

Her opponents are parents, politicians and even teachers who want creationism — the belief that God created human beings as literally described in the Bible — taught in public schools. This despite the fact that the U.S. Supreme Court has issued numerous decisions disallowing the teaching of creationism in public schools because it is a religious view and would violate the separation of church and state.

Scott’s work often takes her into the Bible Belt — the Midwest and the South — but closer to home, a recent conference in San Francisco on “intelligent design” attracted 200 college students and adults. Here Scott was confronted by the relatively new attack on evolution: scientists looking for scientific evidence to prove creationism is true.

While organizers insisted that the conference was about science — creation science — not religion, almost all the speakers were creationists. The intelligent design theory says that life on Earth is so complex and intricate that only an intelligent entity could have designed it.

“What we call creation science makes no reference to the Bible,” said Duane Gish, vice president of the Institute for Creation Research in San Diego.

“It says there are two possible explanations for the origin of the universe and living things: theistic, supernatural creation by an intelligent being, or nontheistic, mechanistic evolutionary theory that posits no goal and no purpose in the evolutionary process. We just happen to be here.”

“I think what bothers me so much of the time,” Scott said, “is they take the data and theory and distort it. They must know they’re distorting.”

But intelligent design theory has gained a lot of momentum, Scott said, because it allows religion, labeled as science, to sneak into schools through the back door.

But another opponent, Phillip Johnson, a Jefferson E. Peyser professor of law, emeritus at UC Berkeley’s Boalt Hall School of Law and author of “Darwin on Trial,” said Darwinism is all about religion.

“Its (evolution’s) impact is cultural,” he said. “It’s impact is it puts God out of reality. I am not bringing religion into the sacred precinct of science. The biologists are already neck deep in religion.”

The Ohio Board of Education recently considered including intelligent design theory in the science curriculum, but after a long debate voted against it. Scott and the National Center for Science Education advised the opponents of the proposal and counts it as another victory. However, Johnson also considers it a victory because the ruling did not exclude teaching intelligent design.

Don Kennedy, a Stanford University biology professor and editor in chief of the journal Science, said Scott has been effective because she’s knowledgeable about evolutionary theory.

“She’s the central force in contesting creationist claims by bringing good science to bear,” he said.

Scott grew up in Wisconsin and studied physical anthropology. She first heard of creationism in 1971, when she was a graduate student and, fascinated by what she thought was a rarity, started collecting literature and information on the movement.

Later, while teaching physical anthropology at the University of Kentucky in 1980, she led her first successful battle, blocking a Kentucky school board from including creationism in the curriculum.

In 1987, Scott was hired as the founding director of the nonprofit National Center for Science Education, the only national organization dedicated to “defending the teaching of evolution in public schools.”

In 2001, Scott’s organization recorded incidents in 43 school districts and five state boards of education in which the teaching of evolution was challenged. Legislation promoting the teaching of creationism was introduced in eight state legislatures and in the U.S. Senate, according to the center.

“She’s a front-line soldier in this war,” said Al Janulaw, a retired schoolteacher and spokesman for the California Science Teachers Association. “She’s everywhere in the country fixing things.” The association, a membership organization of K-12 and university educators, gave Scott its Margaret Nicholson Distinguished Service Award in 2002.

Scott gave up her career as a scientist to pursue activism because she says she sees science as fundamental to a proper education.

“You can’t really be scientifically literate if you don’t understand evolution,” Scott said. “And you can’t be an educated member of society if you don’t understand science.”

Scott describes herself as atheist but does not discount the importance of spirituality.

“Science is a limited way of knowing, looking at just the natural world and natural causes,” she said. “There are a lot of ways human beings understand the universe — through literature, theology, aesthetics, art or music.”

One of Scott’s biggest victories was in Kansas. In 1999, the Kansas State Board of Education voted to remove evolution from the testing standards, generating national headlines and prompting a campaign to preserve the standards. The grass-roots group, Kansas Citizens for Science, called on Scott for advice.

“We’d never been through this before,” said Liz Craig, who helped lead KCFS’ effort. Scott provided reference materials, people to contact and a shoulder to cry on, Craig said.

Scott also traveled to Kansas for several speaking engagements. In her earnest, soft-spoken voice, she tried to explain to parents and teachers that science and evolution are not anti-religion. “Students don’t have to accept evolution,” Scott frequently has said. “But they should learn it — as it is understood by scientists.”

Two years later, a new board was elected, and it restored evolution to the school standards.

The Kansas fight drew national attention to Scott’s work and brought in additional funding. With a spacious, loft-style office on 40th Street in Oakland, NCSE’s annual budget is $500,000, and Scott recently received a raise in her salary to $70,000.

Hanging next to photos of her husband and daughter are awards and cards from scientists and teachers around the country expressing their gratitude.

In 2002, she received a public service award from the National Science Board, which governs the National Science Foundation, to go along with the CSTA honor.

Still, there are many smaller conflicts that are beyond her reach, many of which involve individual students. In the spring, a seventh-grader in Edmond, Okla., was branded “Monkey Girl” by her classmates because she wanted to learn about evolution.

NCSE wrote a letter on the girl’s behalf, asking the principal and the teacher to respect her request and to curb the peer harassment, but to no avail. The family eventually moved to another school district.

Over the years, Scott has found her fight to be much less about science and more about politics. “I learned very early on that it’s necessary but not sufficient for scientists to go to school board meetings and say, ‘We shouldn’t be teaching creationism,’ ” Scott said. “Being right doesn’t mean it’ll pass.

“Public schools are where the next generation of leaders are educated and where cultural exchange will take place,” Scott said. And Scott will be there, fighting to ensure that students are taught evolution.

It’s scientific For more information on the National Center for Science Education, visit www.ncseweb.org or contact Eugenie Scott at 420 40th St., Suite 2, Oakland, CA 94609-2509; (510) 601-7203; ncseoffice@ncseweb.org.

Comments
"But, we know that the vast majority of synonymous sites do not have a specific, conserved function." Uh huh. And a couple years ago you knew that coding genes controlled everything. Knowing is sometimes a fleeting thing, ain't it? DaveScot
"It might simply be the case that there is no better data." Indeed, quite possible. It may be the case that laboratories populations have different mutation rates than in the wild, etc... I guess the main point I'm trying to make is that synonymous sites lacking function is not an argument from ignorance. The most pausimonious explanation for the observed patterns of synonymous substitution rates is that the sites are evolving neutrally. Of course, this parsimonious explanation is not necessarily the truth, only the most reasonable hypothesis that exists at the moment that explains patterns of rate variation. In this case function is an unnecessary additional parameter, and it is removed by Occam's razor. *But* if synonymous sites do have some function, we actually know quite a lot about what sort of function it would be (just from the sequence data). This function would have to exert the same (low) pressure on the vast majority of synonymous codons across the genome (and also the same pressure on many stretches of non-coding DNA). There could be something akin to genomic formatting going on having to do with AT, GC biases, or something of that nature, something specific to the genome, rather than a particular gene. Or, it could also be the case that there is another small subset (cannot be too much more than 1%) besides splice site enhancers that do very particular functions. But, we know that the vast majority of synonymous sites do not have a specific, conserved function. cambion
"What we really need is some better data on the rate of spontaneous mutations…." It might simply be the case that there is no better data. I think you're trying to find patterns in chaos - the genomic equivalent of connecting the dots on star charts to find outlines of familiar objects. There are too many unknown variables effecting mutation rates and no tractible way of eliminating their effects to see what, if anything, is left over. Of course I could be wrong. Stranger things have happened than me being wrong... ;-) DaveScot
What we really need is some better data on the rate of spontaneous mutations... cambion
"f the effects of synonymous substitutions are subtle then they are likely not going to rise above a factor of 2 noise level due to selection pressure." Looks like we might be getting closer to agreement. Assuming that the factor of 2 reflects the true difference (rather than experimental noise) between rates of spontaneous mutation and rates of synonymous substitution, then the most pausimonious explanation would be *very* low-level selection acting at the same strength across synonymous sites and many other non-coding regions. They key here is that function cannot vary across sites... cambion
cambion "Their rates of evolution are just too similar to one another (and to ancestral repeat sequences and to the rate of spontaneous mutation) to suggest otherwise." Wasn't what you deemed "similar" a factor of 2 difference? If the effects of synonymous substitutions are subtle then they are likely not going to rise above a factor of 2 noise level due to selection pressure. DaveScot
cambion: "If Design == Function -> homology data points to common descent If Design > Function -> homology data could give either conclusion" You got it. Now, just to address the earlier discussion of PE: (Letting alone that NS+RV does not have the power that Darwin attributed to it:) In The Origin, Darwin specifically argued against isolation being necessary, and thought that any evolution that occured due to isolation would be inconsequential, since organisms evolved in larger populations would be more robust and eliminate those evolved in smaller populations. Based on analogy with human populations (big fish in little school; small fish in big school), this assumption of his seems completely logical. But the fossil record (still) clearly violates what Darwin said should be there if his theory was correct. As for PE as a patch: Isolation may tend to cause organisms to become smaller or larger (to make do with sparse food - eat less, or eat more and store it up when the opportunity presents itself). But develop new functions? That allow them to wipe out their ancestral species? And that's how all evolution occurs (since the fossil record is inexplicable otherwise)? It's a shame that it's so often misunderstood or misrepresented by creationists; there's no need to misunderstand or misrepresent PE to think that it's an unconvincing attempt to rescue a semblance of Darwin's theory from his own predictions. jay
DaveScot, I think you misunderstand me... Natural selection acting as a purely stabilizing force (i.e. not creating anyting at all) will lower the observed rates of evolution of DNA sequences. Sequences that are more important will change more slowly than sequences that are less important. This can be seen when comparing the rate of change of DNA polymerase vs. some less vital enzyme. However, the observed rates at which synonymous sites change (see points #2 - #4 above) strongly suggests that the vast majority have no function. Their rates of evolution are just too similar to one another (and to ancestral repeat sequences and to the rate of spontaneous mutation) to suggest otherwise. We don't need to know all classes of biological function to make this assessment. If synonymous sites had 'any' function whatsoever, they would NOT show the rates of evolution that they do. Well, actually, if they have some function, it must be that the function is independent of the base pairs used among synonymous sites. And in this case, we would still observe 'neutral' evolution among synonymous sites, as mutations would appear that 'neutral' in the eyes of natural selection. cambion
cambion "quite certain that synonymous sites lacking function >> synonymous sites with function" This implies that every possible function has been identified. There may be entire classes of functionality that have been missed by experiment. There's simply too much that is still unknown to make the kind of claims you're making. Let's take immune function as an example of something likely overlooked by synonymous substitution. Skin graft acceptance/rejection is an easy case to study. http://www.uvm.edu/~jdavison/davison-manifesto.html#variability
The gynogenetic offspring from a common mother are also interesting from the point of view of semi-meiosis as a device for generating genetic diversity. Frogs, like mammals, have evolved immune systems and will reject a skin transplant from a genetically different donor. Gynogenetically produced siblings reject skin transplants from one another. They also reject skin transplants from their common mother because none of them have all of her genes. In fact they each have exactly one half (qualitatively) of her total genetic constitution, the other half having been eliminated in the first polar body. The mother will, however, accept a skin transplant from any of her gynogenetic progeny because none of them have any genes that are not hers (Nace and Richards 1969).
So tell me, would a synonymous site substitution change the immune response in the above experiments? How was modified immune function ruled out in the experiments you use to conclude that synonymous substitutions have no effect other than splice site recognition? As I said before, code comparison operations that fail because of a synonymous substitution could (and almost certainly do) extend beyond splice site recognition. Mobile elements for instance glom onto sequence specific sites on the DNA molecule and the function of these mobile elements is just a complete mystery but it's reasonable to conclude there is *some* function behind them. Just a few years ago it was the consensus that coding genes do everything. Now the consensus is that there is a whole bunch of biological function that is not under the control of coding genes. DaveScot
Should be: (note* that ET does not rely in the least on Haeckel's work). cambion
mentok, "You can say that PE doesn’t postulate “short time frames” and “large mutations” or rapid mutations, all you want. You’re just playing with semantics..." I'd suggest you read the primary literature on the subject... Other straw man attacks from darwinismrefuted.com: 1. Attacking abiogenesis and then saying it has 'refuted' evolution. You can see this in their discussion of thermodynamics. They say: "The theory of evolution says that disordered, dispersed, and lifeless atoms and molecules spontaneously came together over time, in a particular order, to form extremely complex molecules such as proteins, DNA, and RNA..." The theory of evolution says nothing of the sort... 2. They refer to the overall genetic similarity of human and chimp as 95%, and then contrast this with a genetic homology (what percent of 'genes' have matches, not base pairs) of 75% between human and nematode. They say: how can 6 million year separate be 5% and a 530 million year separation be 25%. Another straw man attack. 3. "What used to be called the "recapitulation theory" has long been eliminated from scientific literature, but it is still being presented as a scientific reality by some evolutionist publications." They attack Haeckel, and justly so, but seem to rely on a sort of guild by association scenario with modern evolution theory (not that ET does not rely in the least on Haeckel's work). I'd that's just few examples. These sorts of straw man attacks makes me think that darwinismrefuted.com may have some sort of agenda to push. Maybe... cambion
jay, I understand your point much better now. You kind of put me on the defensive before with the accusation of "unscientific opinion." I agree that my assessment of molecular homology depends on an assumption of function being the only thing that is important. This assumption may or may not be valid, and whether or not it's valid determines whether 'my' point is itself valid. However, science makes assumptions all the time, just because there are assumptions doesn't make something unscientific. I thinkk we're in agreement: If Design == Function -> homology data points to common descent If Design > Function -> homology data could give either conclusion cambion
DaveScot, You make a good point... Teaches me to overstate my case. The statistical analysis that show that 'all' synonymous sites evolve at the same rate, do not have 100% statistical power. The statistics are consistent with each and every synonymous site evolving at the same rate, as well as consistent with the vast majority of synonymous sites evolving at the same rate. The latter is probably the case due to splice site enhancers. Although also possible are other synonymous site functions (you could imagine signals to tell the cell where to take the mRNA and such). So, it is quite possible (and indeed likely) that some synonymous sites have function. However, it is quite certain that synonymous sites lacking function >> synonymous sites with function. cambion
cambion: "If synonymous sites are indeed functionless (all available evidence points to this - see above post), then it follows that I can make the exact same organism in terms of structure, function, behavior, etc. with any ‘isometric’ combination of synonymous codons. From a design perspective, it doesn’t matter what synonymous sites you use. How, exactly, is this an 'unscientific opinion'?" I understood. No explanation needed. It's unscientific because you are assuming what the designer would or would not do for something that isn't constrained. That's an artistic call. "You accuse me of an “unscientific opinion” and then go on to state that the designer could have made things the way they are for “artistic reasons?” Obviously, your designer can do whatever he (it) wants to do, so why bother talking about science…" You're the one who raised the artistic critique. But that is the nature of designers. Within some constraints, they often can do whatever they want to do. And if a phenomenon is actually due to a designer, then to assume that it's not and attempt to force fit it into some pre-conceived notion of material causes will lead to the wrong conclusion. It seems that what you are really saying is that if it's not a material explanation, then it's not science. My point is simply to keep an open mind. I don't rule out neutral evolution or common descent. "This is exactly what common descent is NOT doing. It does not assume a functional (or “artistic”) explanation…" Your are misunderstanding what I said. The requirement for function tends to constrain things, and not to allow artistic license. jay
cambion
1. Synonymous sites have no observed function (expect for the 1% involved in splice site recognition). 2. Synonymous sites evolve at characteristic rate, which is the same among genes and between synonymous sites within a gene. If they have some function it must exert the same influence on each and every synonymous site.
These two points contradict each other. If synonymous changes effect splice site recognition (which is the code comparison I talked at length about) then by definition all synonymous sites cannot have exactly the same influence. Back to the drawing board with you. DaveScot
cambion Evolutionary changes take place instantaneously in a single individual. To say otherwise is to deny descent with modification. Surely you're not doing that. The time-frame argument is thus not about evolutionary change but about enough evolutionary change so that a new species is created. This can almost certainly occur as saltation by way of chromosomal reorganization. DaveScot
cambion you don't know what you are talking about and Talk Origins is useless as they don't either. Saltation is a red herring in your argument as the author of that article did not equate PE with Saltation, he said it was a modified form of it, and it is. You can say that PE doesn't postulate "short time frames" and "large mutations" or rapid mutations, all you want. You're just playing with semantics and claiming that the author of that book was attacking a straw man. That's a straw man attack by you. Anyone can do some reading and see for themselves, if you disagree, well, good luck with that..I can't debate someone who is unable to debate in a straightforward and honest way. I'm through debating you because you are consistently trying to word juggle or mischaracterize or use some other fallacious rhetoric in your futile quest to prove ID wrong at any cost (without even knowing what it really teaches nor what evolution really teaches). mentok
mentok, I'm sorry, I thought that I had actually backed up my claim. I've previously pointed out darwinismrefuted.com's statements of: “This theory was actually a modified form of the “Hopeful Monster” theory put forward by the German paleontologist Otto Schindewolf in the 1930s.” “According to this viewpoint, evolutionary changes take place in short time frames and in very restricted populations-that is, the equilibrium is divided into separate periods or, in other words, “punctuated.” Because the population is very small, large mutations are chosen by natural selection and thus enable a new species to emerge.” These statements push the idea that PE means both "short time frames" and "large mutations." Notably, darwinismrefuted.com goes on to "disprove" the fact that large mutations can be beneficial, in effect, attacking a straw man. However, I also previously posted a link to TalkOrigins posting on PE (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/punc-eq.html). Here is an excerpt: “PE is by no means either synonymous with “saltationism”, nor did Gould’s essay on Richard Goldschmidt “link” PE with Goldschmidt’s “hopeful monster” conjecture. Gould wrote an article that has caused much confusion. “Return of the hopeful monsters” sought to point out that a hatchet job had been done on some of the concepts that Richard Goldschmidt had formulated. The discussion of systemic mutations as mutations which affect rate or timing of development has caused many people to assume that Gould was somehow linking PE to this concept. A close reading of the article shows this to not be the case.” “Gould and Eldredge did not specify any particular genetic mechanism for PE. PE does not require large scale mutations.” "Short time frames" and "large mutations" are not part of PE. It's quite aggrevating to me, that they would misrespresent the theory to such a large degree (although I have to admit it makes their rhetorical argument sound better...) cambion
cambion simply claiming it is wrong and then asking me to repond to your claim is putting the cart before the horse. Since you claim they are wrong the onus is on you present a point by point rebutall and prove you are right. At least that's the preferred methond of debate. mentok
mentok, I would love to hear a response to darwinismrefuted.com's (quite possibly deliberate) misrepresentation of the theory of punctuated equilbrium. cambion
Bombadill, Was my explanation of common descent vs. common design clear enough? Please let me know if there is anything I wasn't conveying properly... cambion
jay, You say that my suggestion that “it just doesn’t matter from a design perspective…” is "an unscientific opinion." If synonymous sites are indeed functionless (all available evidence points to this - see above post), then it follows that I can make the exact same organism in terms of structure, function, behavior, etc. with any 'isometric' combination of synonymous codons. From a design perspective, it doesn't matter what synonymous sites you use. How, exactly, is this an "unscientific opinion"? You then go on to say: "Why wouldn’t (or couldn’t) the intelligent designer for, say, artistic reasons, make nonfunctional details similar on similar species?" You accuse me of an "unscientific opinion" and then go on to state that the designer could have made things the way they are for "artistic reasons?" Obviously, your designer can do whatever he (it) wants to do, so why bother talking about science... "Apart from philosophical grounds, why assume that everything must have a functional explanation?" This is exactly what common descent is NOT doing. It does not assume a functional (or "artistic") explanation... cambion
So annoying, none of my comments want to take... ----------------- DaveScot, In response to possible functions of synonymous sites... I don't want to get into this too much again (as I remember our first discussion ended on a rather sour note). However, I would like to back my self up. The argument is more complete than: "molecular biology observes no function in synonymous sites, therefore there is none." Instead, we have the following pieces of evidence: 1. Synonymous sites have no observed function (expect for the 1% involved in splice site recognition). 2. Synonymous sites evolve at characteristic rate, which is the same among genes and between synonymous sites within a gene. If they have some function it must exert the same influence on each and every synonymous site. Note that this is not the way it works with protein-coding changes. We see different rates between genes and among genes for these sites (which we know are functional). 3. This rate of evolution is the exact same (0.46-0.47 changes per site between mouse and human) for synonymous sites and ancestral sequence repeats. Now, to posit some function it must exert the same influence in both classes of putative functionless sites. 4. This rate of evolution is very close to the observed rate of spontaneous mutation. This match is perfectly predicted by population genetic theory. 5. The site frequency spectum of synonymous polymorphisms (how many polymorphisms are at X% frequency in the population) corresponds quite nicely to population genetic predictions for sites undergoing neutral evolution. There certainly can be pieces of noncoding DNA performing functions that we have no idea exist. However, I think it's pretty well settled that synonymous sites are not among these. cambion
DaveScot, In response to possible functions of synonymous sites... I don't want to get into this too much again (as I remember our first discussion ended on a rather sour note). However, I would like to back my self up. The argument is more complete than: "molecular biology observes no function in synonymous sites, therefore there is none." Instead, we have the following pieces of evidence: 1. Synonymous sites have no observed function (expect for the cambion
cambion: "it just doesn’t matter from a design perspective..." That's an unscientific opinion. "The null hypothesis given by common design would be equivelent levels of synonymous similarity between all mammalian species." Human designers make non-functional details similar on similar designed things all the time. Why wouldn't (or couldn't) the intelligent designer for, say, artistic reasons, make nonfunctional details similar on similar species? "The observed patterns of correspondence provide an excellent indication of patterns of common ancestry. It is possible that a designer is just trying to fool us, but there is no functional reason for finding these patterns." Why assume common ancestry? If not, then why assume devious intent on the part of the designer? Apart from philosophical grounds, why assume that everything must have a functional explanation? "[The] design...prediction [is that] morphologically similar species and morphologically dissimilar species should have the same level of differences regarding ribosome sequence...Plants and animals have the most differences between their conserved genes, and mammals have the least." Species with the most functional similarity having most similarity in functional coding. What a surprise. "Let me restate one thing. This only shows common descent. It is hypothetically possible that neutral evolution has been occuring for many millions of years, resulting in these patterns, while all functional differences were created by an intelligent agent and not natural selection." Even the assumptions of common descent and neutral evolution aren't necessary...except from a materialist mindset. jay
Another good example of synonymous code handling is the common practice of converting all uppercase ASCII characters to lower case before comparing. Thus a password "PASSWORD" and "password" are identical in function. Just don't rely on that that where the password parser is case sensitive. There are a plethora of parsers operating on DNA sequences in the cell. Undoubtedly many of these are still uncharacterized. So just because a ribosome doesn't seem to care which of several redundant codons is used for an amino acid doesn't mean that other parsing mechanisms ignore the difference. DaveScot
"except in some rare circumstances having to do the splice site recognition" I think that's a bit misleading. It seems to imply that we know everything there is to know about splicing mechanisms and that's pretty far from true. It was only in the past year or two that we realized the huge shortfall in expected number of coding human genes was because most of the proteins human cells can produce are the result of tRNA splicing. God only knows what all is going on. Mobile elements, for instance, are hopping around the genome like grease in a hot skillet. It's extremely premature to bound the effects that so-called synonymous mutations can have. There are analogous situations in many human devised codes where such changes have non-obvious effects. The majority of the non-obvious effects are when code comparisons are made and otherwise identical code sequences pop up as not identical, where the mismatch causes process changes further down the line. For instance, it is common programming practice to strip certain "white space" characters from a string before parsing. Yahoo's message boards for instance have spam filters that count the occurence of URLs and one that's repeated too many times throughout their system is deemed spam and all posts containing the URL are deleted. I found a charming way to defeat the filter. The filter doesn't strip ASCII carriage returns and line feeds before doing the comparison and updating the URL counts. So I append a CR or LF escape sequence to rejected URLs in my posts get around it. I can do this and still have a hotlink posted because the software that processes hotlinks does, unlike the spam filter, strip CR & LF characters before parsing. Now suppose there are cellular functions where a synonymous mutation that doesn't alter an expressed protein actually does alter things like frequency of expression, splicing, mobile elements that are glomming onto certain sequences by exact match, etc. DaveScot
"I bet they don’t add up to 100%." That would be quite exciting to somehow show that... It would be quite a contribution... cambion
"what proportion of genetic differences can be attributed to natural selection and what proportion can be solely attributed to drift" I bet they don't add up to 100%. ;-) DaveScot
Let me restate one thing. This only shows common descent. It is hypothetically possible that neutral evolution has been occuring for many millions of years, resulting in these patterns, while all functional differences were created by an intelligent agent and not natural selection. cambion
This other example I talked a bit about earlier. It is very similar to the first, only on a different timescale. There are many cellular functions that are completely conserved across such broad evolutionary distances as plants and animals. These functions include things like DNA replication (whose central protein is DNA polymerase), and protein synthesis (whose central structure (made out of RNA) is the ribosome). With a bit of genetic engineering we could swap the gene the codes the ribosome out of plants, and put it into us, replacing our own ribosome gene. As far as we know (though we can't be sure), these core cellular genes are functionally across phyla. This givess common design the same prediction as before with synonymous sites, namely that morphologically similar species and morphologically dissimilar species should have the same level of differences regarding ribosome sequence. But, again this is not what we see. Plants and animals have the most differences between their conserved genes, and mammals have the least. cambion
The first lies in the particulars of the genetic code. The codons CCT, CCC, CCA, and CCG all encode the amino-acid proline. A point mutation that changes CCT to CCA will invisible to the eyes of natural selection (except in some rare circumstances having to do the splice site recognition). Changes at these synonymous sites should accumulate over time by the process of random genetic drift at a rate equal to the rate of spontaneous mutation (I can go more into the population genetics of this if you would like). What we see is that the number of synonymous differences between the genomes of two species corresponds amazingly well to our morphological / fossil estimates. Thus, the synonymous sites of rat and mouse are much more similar than the synonymous sites of mouse and human. So far, this has held true for comparisons of human, chimp, mouse, rat, dog and cow (and that's just for mammals). These synonymous sites could be anything at all, it just doesn't matter from a design perspective (i.e. every single codon in every organsism could be CCT rather than CCC, CCA, or CCG). The null hypothesis given by common design would be equivelent levels of synonymous similarity between all mammalian species. The observed patterns of correspondence provide an excellent indication of patterns of common ancestry. It is possible that a designer is just trying to fool us, but there is no functional reason for finding these patterns. cambion
Bombadill, "I’m failing to see, cambion, how DNA homology more strongly supports common ancestry than it does common design. It seems that the only way to arrive at this conclusion is to make unwarranted assumptions about how the designer should design. Can you expound on your point here?" I'd be happy to (sorry to be slow to reply by the way). And let me preface things by saying that the following in no way speaks the issue of natural selection, only common descent... The essential thing in differentiating common descent from common design in DNA sequence data lies in telling apart analogous change (where two sequences look similar because they have similar functions, i.e. common design) and homologous change (where two sequences look similar because share ancestry, i.e. common descent). Looking at functional parts is a bad thing to do here (the functional wings of birds and bats are very similar). Instead we want to concern ourselves with nonfunctional differences (this is why paleontologists study tiny differences in the bone structure of the inner ear and such). I'll present a couple of examples of nonfunctional differences... cambion
Sorry about that... Ignore most of my comment #70 (I hit select all on my scratchpad by accident). All that I meant to paste in addresses Bombadill... cambion
DaveScot, You say: ” Are you suggesting that cancer is a novel cell type and we observed its creation in nature by random mutation and natural selection?” I would actually make an argument for that being the case. A cancer is induced by genetic change to the chromosomes within a cell. This is a form of mutation that happens in somatic tissue rather than germline tissue, and hence is not heritable. These genetic changes lead the cell to stop listening to what the cells around it are saying and strike out on its own. It keeps reproducing even though the body tells it to stop. You end up with lots and lots of cancer cells because of this. This is a form of natural selection (though from an individual cell’s perspective, rather than that of the organism). Mutation results in an increase of fitness over that of the other cells in the body. If certain cancer cells undergo futher genetic change that results in them either reproducing more quickly, or better evading the body’s defense systems, then these will be selected for and come to replace the original cancer cells. Pretty neat huh? For some reason something in my post (that goes between 19 and 20) is causing it to be dropped. I have no idea why. I'll rewriting things a bit and see if that helps. Cancer is caused when a somatic cell undergoes mutation (this is why smoking and such is linked to cancer, nicotine induces mutations). This form of mutation is non-heritable (in the organismic sense), unlike those in germline tissue. Evolution from the point of view of the organism happens in these germline mutations. However, evolution (from the cell's POV) occurs from these somatic changes. These changes lead the cell to stop listening to the cell's around and strike out on its own. It keeps replicating, even though the body tells it to stop. This results in lots and lots of cancer cells. jboze3131, It's a tradeoff. The cell's within our body our kept in line as best we can. However, note the massive prevalence of cancer as a cause of death once other causes are removed (as what's happened in the 1st world). Organisms (not the cells within them) are selected to have mechanisms to control their cells. If an organisms cannot control it's cells well enough, it will indeed "mean death to ALL the cells." However, these organisms will be eliminated by natural selection. It can take place on multiple levels at the same time, so that selection on one level conflicts with selection at another. Check out "Intragenomic conflict" at Wikipedia if you're interested... Gumpngreen, Yes, the new HeLa cells could be considered "a degenerative modification of pre-existing CSI." However, I would argue that these cells are indeed a new cell type. Theoretically, they could thrive outside the human body (almost like bacteria) given the proper environmental conditions. I don't know if you'd consider that a new species or not, given that the genome is almost exactly the same an the canonical human genome, but they live a unicellular lifestyle. "If people as you claim study evolution in order to understand the world around them ,then they would not be biased against the anti-evolution arguments." Let me rephrase my claim a bit. I claim 'I' study evolution in order to understand the world around me. I find living things in all their forms and complexity to be fascinating. I want to understand how they got to be that way. I have by no means dismissed ID as a hypothesis. If you look at some of my other posts I have suggested ways of testing some of its predictions. I'm very happy people are looking into these things. Research can only further our understanding of the world, either enhancing support for evolutionary theory, or replacing with something else. The way I see it right, however, is that criticisms of evolution remain highly speculative. Stuff along the lines of: "We see evolutionary by natural selection happening all the time Bombadill, "I’m failing to see, cambion, how DNA homology more strongly supports common ancestry than it does common design. It seems that the only way to arrive at this conclusion is to make unwarranted assumptions about how the designer should design. Can you expound on your point here?" I'd be happy to (sorry to be slow to reply by the way). And let me preface things by saying that the following in no way speaks the issue of natural selection, only common descent... The essential thing in differentiating common descent from common design in DNA sequence data lies in telling apart analogous change (where two sequences look similar because they have similar functions, i.e. common design) and homologous change (where two sequences look similar because share ancestry, i.e. common descent). Looking at functional parts is a bad thing to do here (the functional wings of birds and bats are very similar). Instead we want to concern ourselves with nonfunctional differences (this is why paleontologists study tiny differences in the bone structure of the inner ear and such). I'll present a couple of examples of nonfunctional differences... -------------------------------------- The first lies in the particulars of the genetic code. The codons CCT, CCC, CCA, and CCG all encode the amino-acid proline. A point mutation that changes CCT to CCA will invisible to the eyes of natural selection (except in some rare circumstances having to do the splice site recognition). Changes at these synonymous sites should accumulate over time by the process of random genetic drift at a rate equal to the rate of spontaneous mutation (I can go more into the population genetics of this if you would like). What we see is that the number of synonymous differences between the genomes of two species corresponds amazingly well to our morphological / fossil estimates. Thus, the synonymous sites of rat and mouse are much more similar than the synonymous sites of mouse and human. So far, this has held true for comparisons of human, chimp, mouse, rat, dog and cow (and that's just for mammals). These synonymous sites could be anything at all, it just doesn't matter from a design perspective (i.e. every single codon in every organsism could be CCT rather than CCC, CCA, or CCG). The null hypothesis given by common design would be equivelent levels of synonymous similarity between all mammalian species. The observed patterns of correspondence provide an excellent indication of patterns of common ancestry. It is possible that a designer is just trying to fool us, but there is no functional reason for finding these patterns. ----------------------------------------- This other example I talked a bit about earlier. It is very similar to the first, only on a different timescale. There are many cellular functions that are completely conserved across such broad evolutionary distances as plants and animals. These functions include things like DNA replication (whose central protein is DNA polymerase), and protein synthesis (whose central structure (made out of RNA) is the ribosome). With a bit of genetic engineering we could swap the gene the codes the ribosome out of plants, and put it into us, replacing our own ribosome gene. As far as we know (though we can't be sure), these core cellular genes are functionally across phyla. This givess common design the same prediction as before with synonymous sites, namely that morphologically similar species and morphologically dissimilar species should have the same level of differences regarding ribosome sequence. But, again this is not what we see. Plants and animals have the most differences between their conserved genes, and mammals have the least. ------------------------------------------ Let me restate one thing. This only shows common descent. It is hypothetically possible that neutral evolution has been occuring for many millions of years, resulting in these patterns, while all functional differences were created by an intelligent agent and not natural selection. cambion
"Here’s something for you to think about. How many individuals did the chromosome change (chimp/human) initially occur in and if the answer is one individual how did that one individual find a compatible mate when the different chromosome count would rule out procreation?" This is not quite true. Individuals with differ chromosome counts can indeed reproduce and have fertile offspring. Let's say there is a Robertsonian translocation so that chromosomes A and B are fused at the centromere. The mating is then: A B x A-B The zygotes have a 50% chance of being aneuploid (lacking genetic information or having double genetic information for a chromosome). These will almost always be aborted very early in the pregnancy. In fact, most spontaneous abortions are thought to result from natural chromosomal abnormalities. However, the zygotes also have a 50% chance of being euploid (having the correct amount of genetic information and hence healthy). One half of these (1/4 overall) will be A B, and one half (1/4 overall) will be A-B. Thus, the translocation is only slightly deleterious, and has a chance to be fixed in the population by drift alone (though also note that if it suceeds in getting past 50% frequency in the population, the original chromosomal state will then be selected against, and translocation's fixating will be aided by natural selection). Slightly delerious mutations do not often fix, but this is consistent with what we observe. 30 million nucleotide changes, and 1 chromosomal translocation. cambion
"Short time frame is not an unreasonable characterization. In small reproductively isolated populations mutations can become fixed in the population rapidly compared to large populations." Agreed, but Gould and Eldridge do not present this as part of PE. Note, however, Mayr discusses this when he presents his theory of peripatric speciation. cambion
"Why would anyone be trying to test a theory that’s already as well tested as gravity?" That's a pretty good point, but, you know, they're still looking for gravitons, aren't they? My basic concern is trying to establish what proportion of genetic differences can be attributed to natural selection and what proportion can be solely attributed to drift. I do accept that natural selection does fix some of the genetic changes we see between species. How many genes show evidence of positive selection? The question for me is, whether there are a few selected changes which caused a large morphological change, or numerous selected changes that caused the same large morphological change. Confirming the presence (as opposed to the quantity) of selection is more or less a side effect (at least for me). cambion
"My work focuses on trying to ascertain if we can see natural happening on the DNA sequence level. I’m not entering into things thinking that we’ll see all kinds of selection, only asking the question: “do we see the effects of natural selection on the evolution of genes in natural populations.” To me, this represents a very concrete sort of question. It becomes about quantitative answers, rather than narrative “just-so-stories” that often told in evolutionary biology." Why would anyone be trying to test a theory that's already as well tested as gravity? DaveScot
cambion Here's something for you to think about. How many individuals did the chromosome change (chimp/human) initially occur in and if the answer is one individual how did that one individual find a compatible mate when the different chromosome count would rule out procreation? If the answer is more than one individual what mechanism do you propose could produce two individuals, male and female, geographically and temporally close together, with the same new chromosome organization so that they could produce offspring of the new species? I recommend reading Emeritus Professor of Biology John A. Davison's evolutionary manifesto for hypothetical answers to the above connundrum. http://www.uvm.edu/~jdavison/davison-manifesto.html DaveScot
cambion Humans and chimps have a different number of chromosomes. How much of the difference between the species is due to chromosomal reorganization and how much due to point mutations? DaveScot
Short time frame is not an unreasonable characterization. In small reproductively isolated populations mutations can become fixed in the population rapidly compared to large populations. Large mutations is a questionable characterization but may be defended by saying rapid bursts of small mutations look like one big mutation in the fossil record since all the small ones would be unlikely to be recorded. In other words it's an artifact caused by sampling frequency. DaveScot
mentok, Does it bother you that darwinismrefuted.com did such a shody job in their discussion of Punctiated Equilbrium? Here is a sample of what they say: "According to this viewpoint, evolutionary changes take place in short time frames and in very restricted populations-that is, the equilibrium is divided into separate periods or, in other words, "punctuated." Because the population is very small, large mutations are chosen by natural selection and thus enable a new species to emerge." PE has nothing to do with short time frames or large mutations. Why is it do you think that they propogate this false understanding of the theory? I did, however, read most of the 'book'. It does make a few good criticisms, such as the difficulty distinguishing homologous structures from analogous structures, and the misrepresentation of antibiotic resistance as an incapulation of evolution. However, I was dissapointed with book's reliance on equating abiogenesis with evolution, and with using the sort of tornado in a junkyard analogies that do not fit at all. It says things like: "Quite aware that the second law of thermodynamics renders evolution impossible..." However, all it talks about regarding thermodynamics lies in abiogenesis, and not in evolution. This is another pretty serious misrepresentation of the facts. cambion
were still talking about 1. gliding, and 2. nothing that would even remotely suggest that these animals would eventually totally transform into animals with wings of ANY kind. were basing all of this on assumptions that animals can actually evolve into new types of animals (whether the process work slowly or in rapid bursts of change)...weve no empirical evidence to suggest that any mechanism is capable of doing this sort of thing. so, were dealing purely with a hypothetic evolutionary path that may not even exist. the phrase "evolutionary path" might not even be the way things truly are. therein lies the problem- all of this is hypothetic science posing as empirical science that is supposedly the basis of all biology (tho, as we have seen, recent articles by evolutionists themselves have debunked this notion.) if there is some evolutionary pathway involved, and the evolution just never went anywhere with the whole gliding to flying, skin webbing to wings idea- that would lend to the idea that the mechanism itself, that supposedly brought about all the various life forms, isnt so powerful afterall. surely flying fish with wings would survive better than those without...flying snakes could easily get away from predators, much better than a non-flying snake, no doubt. etc. jboze3131
I'm failing to see, cambion, how DNA homology more strongly supports common ancestry than it does common design. It seems that the only way to arrive at this conclusion is to make unwarranted assumptions about how the designer should design. Can you expound on your point here? Thanks. Bombadill
MGD, Again, I agree with you (however, you'll note I actually haven't used the term "evolution" to refer to the regaining of the stick insect wings, I wasn't trying to equate this with any sort of larger process). I was trying to point out the difference between the capabilities of variation and the capabilities of mutation. So we can drop the subject: I agree that seeing Drosophila (or stick insects) that recently lost their wings regain them does not prove that the same mechanism caused them to evolve their wings in the first place. cambion
"I think this is mostly semantic at this point" I agree. You call this hypothetical process "evolution", and then (by implication) use the same word to describe how insects got their wings in the first place. At best this is an unwarranted extrapolation at worst it is equivocation. "I was trying to say that mutations can make changes outside of the scope of the limits of a species’ gene pool." But the genetic and developmental aperatus was already in place. It's like having a working tv set that someone pulls the plug on (mutation). Plug it back in (back mutation) and the tv runs again. This can also happen to wingless drosophila in the laboratory. Sometimes wings can reemerge in later generations. This example wont hold water. Choose another or just drop it. MGD
Animals with gliding mechanisms such as squirrels are certainly on a different evolutionary path to birds with wings. The gliding mechanism cannot have breaks or ruffles in it, and it is a skin flap that runs continuously between the forelegs and the hindlegs. avocationist
jboze3131, First off, I think you do not give enough credit to flying fish... "because some fish can ‘jump’ out of the water into the air, were anywhere near flight? (which requires wings!)" From Wikipedia: "To prepare for a glide, the fish swim rapidly close to the surface of the water, with their fins close to the body. As they leave the water, they spread their fins. The caudal fin is usually deeply forked, with the lower lobe longer than the upper. The fish rapidly move the lower lobe to propel themselves forward once the rest of the body has already left the water. Eventually, even the tail leaves the water and the fish are airborne. They do not flap their "wings". In gliding, flyingfish can almost double their speed, reaching speeds up to 60 km/h. The glides are usually up to 30-50 meters in length, but some have been observed soaring for hundreds of metres using the updraft on the leading edges of waves. The fish can also make a series of glides, each time dipping the tail into the water to produce forward thrust." I thought that was pretty cool. "theres no way you can reasonably posit that these animals were evolving into having the ability to fly (which requires wings)" I think you misunderstand me... The 'transitional' gliding forms I was refering to will not necessary eventually evolve the capacity for powered flight. They only have the chance or opportunity to evolve flight at some point in the future. They have begun moving down that path, it's not at all certain they will finish it. As you've pointed out abundantly before, there is a lot of 'chance' involved in evolution. A flying fish already has something very close to a set of wings, namely enlarged pectoral fins. Natural selection could over time, favor the strengthening of the muscles attached to these fins, eventually allowing for powered flight. Whether or not this actually occurs is a matter of chance, chance that depends a lot on what sort of environmental pressures the fish faces. cambion
cambion those are not transitions and they are not accepted as such by evolutionists. Those creatures are not growing wings, they are not mutations. from http://www.darwinismrefuted.com/origin_of_species_04.html "At this point, it is necessary to clarify just what the concept of "transitional form" means. The intermediate forms predicted by the theory of evolution are living things falling between two species, but which possess deficient or semi-developed organs. But sometimes the concept of intermediate form is misunderstood, and living structures which do not possess the features of transitional forms are seen as actually doing so. For instance, if one group of living things possesses features which belong to another, this is not an intermediate form feature. The platypus, a mammal living in Australia, reproduces by laying eggs just like reptiles. In addition, it has a bill similar to that of a duck. Scientists describe such creatures as the platypus as "mosaic creatures." That mosaic creatures do not count as intermediate forms is also accepted by such foremost paleontologists as Stephen Jay Gould and Niles Eldredge." cambion: Here's something interesting on Gould: http://www.arn.org/ftissues/ft9801/opinion/johnson.html mentok
lol. come on cambion! if we have flying snakes, we should see near bird snakes. because something can glide by flattening its body doesnt mean it was evolving into anything. why on earth would NS choose these features then stop basically? why no true flying snakes or squirrels? because some fish can 'jump' out of the water into the air, were anywhere near flight? (which requires wings!) because a snake can flatten its body and therefore use this feature to sort of glide doesnt show any half-flight features! gliding doesnt automatically lead to flight. flattening your body is nowhere near having wings...and weve no proof that any of these animals were ever on their way to forming wings! a frog with webbed feet is even further away from wings, which again is required for flight. theres no way you can reasonably posit that these animals were evolving into having the ability to fly (which requires wings) just because one has webbed feet it can use to merely glide or that a snake can flatten its body to also glide. how would the ability to flatten ones body evolve into wings? thats speculation that doesnt even make sense. jboze3131
mentok, You say: "Why do we not see living today creatures somewhere with those mutations in the incomplete stage of turning into a flying animals?" But we do... Around us today are many transitional fliers. In this case, animals that gotten so far as to glide, but not to fly. We have 'flying squirrels,' 'flying' snakes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysopelea), 'flying' lizards, 'flying' frogs (they use their webbed feet to glide), and even 'flying' fish. Given more time any one of these (well, probably not the fish...) could evolve the capacity for powered flight. Evolution is all around us... cambion
jboze3131, "the point was- what mechanism could possibly make these massive and quick changes?" Say this with me: "Punctuated equilibrium has nothing to do with changes taking place quickly in time." Now, read that line 10 more times... cambion
cambion you posted this abstract: "Abstract: “The evolution of wings was the central adaptation allowing insects to escape predators, exploit scattered resources, and disperse into new niches, resulting in radiations into vast numbers of species." Ya see...this the problem with evolutionists whenever they write about their research. They begin with begging the question. They start from the premise that evolution was the mechanism which accounts for diversity. Then they go on to make their little thesis about whatever. Because they take evolution for granted and they are also writing for an audience which takes evolution for granted they then take no steps in their thesis to try and prove that evolution did indeed happen. It's a given. Let's continue: "Despite the presumed evolutionary advantages associated with full-sized wings (macroptery), nearly all pterygote (winged) orders have many partially winged (brachypterous) or wingless (apterous) lineages, and some entire orders are secondarily wingless (for example, fleas, lice, grylloblattids and mantophasmatids), with about 5% of extant pterygote species being flightless. Thousands of independent transitions from a winged form to winglessness have occurred during the course of insect evolution;" There he goes again. He is not actually saying anything of any real value. He is simply saying "evolution in this case went in this direction". That's just another question begging statement. There is no attempt to prove that evolution happened. You may object and say that that is just an abstract. But if you go and read the man's research you will find the same thing, it's the standard operating procedure amongst almost all evolutionists to not present any evidence that evolution actually took. It's always taken for granted and then the authors expand on their ideas of why or in what direction it took place. It's all just circular reasoning, not science. It's like children having a discussion about what the Tooth Fairy looks like. Let's continue: "...however, an evolutionary reversal from a flightless to a volant form has never been demonstrated clearly for any pterygote lineage. Such a reversal is considered highly unlikely because complex interactions between nerves, muscles, sclerites and wing foils are required to accommodate flight." Here he mistakingly makes a valid point and by doing so discredits the theory of evolution. If an animal is going to evolve froma flightless animal into a flying animal there needs to be a serious change in anatomy. Flight requires a comprehensive change to a flightless animals body plan. The probability that the number of consecutive advantageous mutations needed that can end up with an animal that can fly actually occuring, is so small that it would have to be considered impossible. Yet in nature we see flying creatures from insects to reptiles to avians. What is the probability of a flightless animal having a lineage which experienced consecutive advantageous mutations leading to the animal being changed completely and allowing it to fly? Let's for a second say that that miracle occured exactly as evolutionists claim it did. How long would it take? How many millions of years? Where are the fossils of the transitional forms? Why do we not see living today creatures somewhere with those mutations in the incomplete stage of turning into a flying animals? In fact there should be more transitional forms then completed forms. This is because according to evolution evolving is a non stop process in nature. We should continually see evolution everywhere, in the past and present. Yet we see it nowhere. But lets talk about what the Tooth Fairy likes to eat for lunch. what do think? Frunkleberry pie? Let's continue: "Here we show that stick insects (order Phasmatodea) diversified as wingless insects and that wings were derived secondarily, perhaps on many occasions. These results suggest that wing developmental pathways are conserved in wingless phasmids, and that ‘re-evolution’ of wings has had an unrecognized role in insect diversification”" Again more begging of the question. Can he prove or does he evn try to prove that stick insects "diversified"? No. It's take for granted that evolution happens so there is no need to go into all of that. Then he say "these results suggest". If you want to see something bad enough you might be able to convince yourself that it is there. What he has done is to take some examples of stick insects and then create a grand theory without any actual data to back up that theory. Is there a population survey? A genetic study amongst that popluation survey? Are there enough fossils of stick insects that will enable you to get an accurate picture of the actual situation, in other words how do we know that our data is complete? If we do not have enough data and show no proof that evolution took place, then what is the use of speculating? How is that called science? How does he know that stick insects both wingless and winged varieties are not always around somewhere? Is the fossil record on stick insects enough to show that there couldn't possibly have been both wingless and winged stick insects living during the same period? There would need to be a large amount of data and research done in order to confidently conclude what has been concluded. Yet in the fantasy realm of evolutionary "science" proof is not required. Novel theories are their sine qua non. For the unbelievers...burn them at the stake. Let's continue; "Bottom line is: stick insects have lost and regained wings many many times." Riiiiiiight. mentok
the point was- what mechanism could possibly make these massive and quick changes? and a theory that leaves no evidence for the transitions that supposedly should be found...thats a weak theory to say the least. jboze3131
MGD, "But the information was already in the genome, that’s what conserved means." I think this is mostly semantic at this point, but I also think there is something important there. mentok was saying that evolution cannot ever get anywhere because of the limits of variation within a species' gene pool. I was trying to say that mutations can make changes outside of the scope of the limits of a species' gene pool. "The remarkable thing is that random mutation, drift, etc., doesn’t scramble the information while wings are not expressed in the phenotype." This is indeed quite remarkable. (To this evolutionist) it suggests that the genes specifically involved in making wings also make other things, and it's just a question of wiring them in the correct way. Otherwise (if wing genes made wings and nothing else), once a species lost its wings, these genes would decay and it would at all easy to regain them. cambion
Oops, should be "Of course, there wouldn't be many fossils..." cambion
jboze3131, I'd suggest you reread my post. PE was suggested as a theory specifically to avoid instituting a "mechansism that made for quick bursts of change." Reading comprehension FTW. "there wouldnt be many fossils because of the way the changes happened…thats quite convenient for the theory!" Theories describe observed phenomenon. Of course, there would be many fossils if PE is correct. Your statement is akin to saying: "you say that with gravity, matter would be attracted to matter... thats quite convenient for the theory!" cambion
“Gould and Eldredge did not specify any particular genetic mechanism for PE. PE does not require large scale mutations.” so natural selection was the mechanism that made for quick bursts of changes? then again, you say that with PE, there wouldnt be many fossils because of the way the changes happened...thats quite convenient for the theory! jboze3131
"One morning in September, Eugenie Scott of Berkeley got a long-distance phone call from an alarmed parent in Cobb County, Ga. The board of education there was considering allowing creationism to be taught side-by-side with evolution as an alternative, scientific theory on human origins" Oh no! Somebody DOOOO something! ;) Mats
"I completely agree with you. I was just giving a counterpoint to mentok’s claim that: “You will never see wings growing from a creature that does not have the genetic information for wings already in it’s gene pool.” The genetic information to regain wings requires a mutation (or three) to reactiviate the developmental pathway. " But the information was already in the genome, that's what conserved means. I guess I just dont see your point. Sorry. The remarkable thing is that random mutation, drift, etc., doesn't scramble the information while wings are not expressed in the phenotype. MGD
Along these lines... http://www.darwinismrefuted.com/equilibrium.html repeats the common mis-understanding of Gould and Eldridge's theory of punctuated equilibrium. "This theory was actually a modified form of the "Hopeful Monster" theory put forward by the German paleontologist Otto Schindewolf in the 1930s." No, it wasn't. From http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/punc-eq.html "PE is by no means either synonymous with "saltationism", nor did Gould's essay on Richard Goldschmidt "link" PE with Goldschmidt's "hopeful monster" conjecture. Gould wrote an article that has caused much confusion. "Return of the hopeful monsters" sought to point out that a hatchet job had been done on some of the concepts that Richard Goldschmidt had formulated. The discussion of systemic mutations as mutations which affect rate or timing of development has caused many people to assume that Gould was somehow linking PE to this concept. A close reading of the article shows this to not be the case." "Gould and Eldredge did not specify any particular genetic mechanism for PE. PE does not require large scale mutations." It really bothers me that so many falsehoods are thrown around regarding this... cambion
In reponse to the fossil record... First off, the gaps are there, but they are not 'huge'. It's not like amphibeans suddenly appear with no record of lobe-finned lung-bearing fishes before them. However, there are numerous gaps between more closely related taxa. Explaining this is indeed difficult, I won't deny that. Let me give you Gould and Eldrige's take on it. It seems punctiated equilibrium is one of the least understood concepts, just because somehow the popular conception, has come to mean something very different than the original conception. Let take a pretty concrete example. Let's say we have a species of bird that ranges across temperate forests in North America. Gould and Eldrigde suggest that 'habitat tracking' (as well as couple other mechanisms) will cause this species to resist environmental perturbations. For instance, if the earth gets a lot cooler, the temperate forests wil move south and the birds with them. They won't have to adapt to the colder environment. This gives us morphological stasis over time. However, if the climate cools, and most the birds move south the forests, but there are a few populations that get stuck in northern forests as the climate cools. These birds will adapt to changing climate in a more or less gradual fashion, and eventually spread out over chillier northern forests. The fossil record will show the sudden appearance of this new species across a wide geographic area, but this is only because the small area in which the new species formed in unlikely to be bear any fossils. In short, evolution in small geographic expanse, will appear in the fossil record identical to evolution in short period of time. I'm not saying that this is what it must be, but I think it may be a stab in the right direction. No theory can be perfect. Modern day physics is still accepted even though they can't explain what's going on with dark matter and dark energy. cambion
mentok, I have posted the PDFs I've listed above to www.oeb.harvard.edu/hartl/id/ In response to: "Since the theory of evolution is based upon mutations which benefit the species due to survival of the fittest, we reach a self contradictory impasse." That "all mutations are harmful until the final finished product is in perfect working condition" is just your assertion. When we observe nature we see numerous mutations that don't create immediately perfect structures, but still provide an advantage to the barrer. One can even see this on the molecular level with the origin of new genes. Please, please read Long et al. regarding this. Also, the other paper to start with would probably be Hurst and Werren's review of selfish genetic elements. cambion
Bombadill, It is not surprising at all that we share DNA with plants. Evolutionary theory predicts that we shared a common ancestor around 1.5 billion years ago, when we were still unicellular eukarotic protists. Thus, our basic cellular machinery is shared, things like DNA replication, DNA repair, some basic metabolism, protein synthesis... things like that. However, I think you may have mis-heard Dr. Wells (or he mis-spoke) about 70% shared DNA with bananas. A brief Google gave me: "Humans share a 47, 63, 38, 15, and 20% homology with the fruit fly, the mouse, C. elegans, baker’s yeast, and Arabidopsis, respectively." (http://pubs.acs.org/subscribe/journals/mdd/v04/i11/html/11lesney.html). These numbers are actually a bit misleading. Plants have many genes unique to plants, and animals have many genes unique to animals, but in the genes that they share, there is only 20% average similarity. We share almost all our genes with mice, here there is 63% average similarity. These trends in genomic similarity offer strong support for common ancestry (not however for natural selection), as the levels of similarity match what we've predicted from morphological analysis. One important thing here (which differentiates this from common design of similar organisms) is that genes that have the exact same function, like DNA replication, still show the same overall pattern of decreasing similarity with morphological difference. I designer could have created a single DNA polymerase and used it in plants, fruit flies and humans. However, we see equivelent DNA polymerases that differ in neutral changes. For more information about neutral evolution (evolution without natural selection), see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutral_theory_of_molecular_evolution. Also, keep in mind that such 'neutral drift' would be compatible with a theory of front-loaded evolution. If we do indeed share 70% of DNA with bananas, but only 63% with mice, one could falsify a lot of evolutionary theory. (This doesn't mean one particular gene having 70% similarity with bananas, and all genes having an average of 63% similarity with mice). cambion
MGD, I completely agree with you. I was just giving a counterpoint to mentok's claim that: "You will never see wings growing from a creature that does not have the genetic information for wings already in it’s gene pool.” The genetic information to regain wings requires a mutation (or three) to reactiviate the developmental pathway. cambion
http://www1.minn.net/~science/Haldane.htm www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v19/i1/CostTheory.pdf MGD
"These results suggest that wing developmental pathways are conserved in wingless phasmids, and that ‘re-evolution’ of wings has had an unrecognized role in insect diversification” just what I said above. Developmental pathways were already present. MGD
A single point mutation (for example) could shut off the developmental pathway that leads to wing development in stick insects, leaving them wingless. Later, a "back mutation" could reintroduce wings to the population. Wings would not have to re-evolve. MGD
"the chimp and human dna differs by nearly 5% actually, not 1%. and thats a MASSIVE difference." I recently heard a radio interview with Embryologist, Dr. Jonathan Wells. He said that you and I share about 70% of our DNA with bananas. What am I to conclude from that... within the Darwinian framework? Bombadill
avocationist, "In other words, why did Darwin call it a damnable doctrine that he couldn’t see why anyone would want to be true?" From what I've read (which isn't all that much) it seems that Darwin lost his faith, not because of his science, but because of his personal life. The death's of his father and his daughter Annie, soured him to the idea of a benevolent Christian god. Go here: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/darwin/diary/1842.html cambion
Grr... The posting screwed up my ascii art... I hope you get the idea anyway. Let me know if it isn't clear. cambion
jboze3131, You say: "so how would you possibly draw a line from chimps to humans? without even the ancestor candidate, you sure as heck dont have its dna to look at!" Here, you are very confused. Here is what the evolution of chimps and humans is thought to look like: / * chimp-human ancestor | / \ 6 million | / \ years | / \ | / \ \ human chimp There are numerous mutations on both the chimp-specific and human-specific branches. We can draw a contiual line between chimps and humans like this: human ----------------------------- chimp It doesn't matter where along this line the human ancester falls. The line will still be the same. Here a toy example (using 0s and 1s for genetic code): 0000 / \ 1000 0100 / \ 1010 0100 Regardless of what sequence the common ancestor was. We know that there were mutations switching the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd base pairs. One can make a smooth transitions between the chimp and human genomes. "mathematically, theres really no chance that the number of mutations needed to make this difference could have taken place in the supposed 6 million yrs the narrative tells us about." Here, you are wrong. I lot of smart people have done a lot of good math dealing with gene flow through populations (this is the field of population genetics). One key piece here, is that multiple mutations can become fixed in the population at the same time. Each base pair mutates and can go to fixation independently of other base pairs. "the chimp and human dna differs by nearly 5% actually, not 1%." It depends on what metric you use. From Britten et al. (2002): "In this sample of 779 kb, the divergence due to base substitution is 1.4%, and there is an additional 3.4% difference due to the presence of indels." cambion
mentok, I'm in the middle of reading your post. I'll give a more complete response later. I just wanted to note one thing at the moment. You said: "You will never see wings growing from a creature that does not have the genetic information for wings already in it’s gene pool." Take a look at this: Whiting et al. 2003. Loss and recovery of wings in stick insects. Nature 421: 264-267. Abstract: "The evolution of wings was the central adaptation allowing insects to escape predators, exploit scattered resources, and disperse into new niches, resulting in radiations into vast numbers of species. Despite the presumed evolutionary advantages associated with full-sized wings (macroptery), nearly all pterygote (winged) orders have many partially winged (brachypterous) or wingless (apterous) lineages, and some entire orders are secondarily wingless (for example, fleas, lice, grylloblattids and mantophasmatids), with about 5% of extant pterygote species being flightless. Thousands of independent transitions from a winged form to winglessness have occurred during the course of insect evolution; however, an evolutionary reversal from a flightless to a volant form has never been demonstrated clearly for any pterygote lineage. Such a reversal is considered highly unlikely because complex interactions between nerves, muscles, sclerites and wing foils are required to accommodate flight. Here we show that stick insects (order Phasmatodea) diversified as wingless insects and that wings were derived secondarily, perhaps on many occasions. These results suggest that wing developmental pathways are conserved in wingless phasmids, and that 're-evolution' of wings has had an unrecognized role in insect diversification" Bottom line is: stick insects have lost and regained wings many many times. cambion
Mentok, I noted what you wrote above about the Darwinist establishment taking on the behaviors of a religion, and I take that to mean you see that religion has behaved badly. What do you make of that, and why do you suppose so many people hate God and religion? In other words, why did Darwin call it a damnable doctrine that he couldn't see why anyone would want to be true? avocationist
cambion you only asked one question. A continuum of variation? Evolution is not taught as a continuum of variation. Variation is a mathematically determinable number of biological features capable of being manifest within a single species through breeding. Evolution is taught as being the result of a large number of consecutive helpful mutations of the genes which then leads to natural selection and more mutations, then more natural selection, then more mutations etc, which then leads to new species. One of the problems with that theory is that there are no transitional forms. There are no living things or any in the fossil record which can be proved to be in the transitional stage between one species and another. We dont find chimps with human body parts in the present or the past. We don't find one species growing new organs which depart from their body plan. We see mutations but they are never producing new body parts, they simply create new forms of existing body parts e.g 6 fingers on a hand, or a two headed snake. You will never see wings growing from a creature that does not have the genetic information for wings already in it's gene pool. But evolution posits we should find them everywhere, past and present. Evolution teaches that mutation can create new genetic information for new body parts. This has never been observed past or present even though if evolution were true you should see transitional organs on species due to mutation all around you. Darwin was aware of this contradiction between his theory and the facts on the ground. He wrote the following in the chapter of the The Origin of Species entitled "Difficulties on Theory": "Why, if species have descended from other species by fine gradations, do we not everywhere see innumerable transitional forms? Why is not all nature in confusion, instead of the species being, as we see them, well defined?… But, as by this theory innumerable transitional forms must have existed, why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth?… But in the intermediate region, having intermediate conditions of life, why do we not now find closely-linking intermediate varieties? This difficulty for a long time quite confounded me." He concluded that the fossil record which had collected up to his time was incomplete and that in the future we find transitional forms. Now paleontologists say: Robert Carroll, an expert on vertebrate paleontology and a committed evolutionist: "Despite more than a hundred years of intense collecting efforts since the time of Darwin's death, the fossil record still does not yield the picture of infinitely numerous transitional links that he expected" Biologist Francis Hitching, in his book The Neck of the Giraffe: Where Darwin Went Wrong, states: "If we find fossils, and if Darwin's theory was right, we can predict what the rock should contain; finely graduated fossils leading from one group of creatures to another group of creatures at a higher level of complexity. The 'minor improvements' in successive generations should be as readily preserved as the species themselves. But this is hardly ever the case. In fact, the opposite holds true, as Darwin himself complained; "innumerable transitional forms must have existed, but why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth?" Darwin felt though that the "extreme imperfection" of the fossil record was simply a matter of digging up more fossils. But as more and more fossils were dug up, it was found that almost all of them, without exception, were very close to current living animals." Stephen Jay Gould, a Harvard University paleontologist and well-known evolutionist, admitted this fact first in the late 70s: "The history of most fossil species include two features particularly inconsistent with gradualism: 1) Stasis - most species exhibit no directional change during their tenure on earth. They appear in the fossil record looking much the same as when they disappear; morphological change is usually limited and directionless; 2) Sudden appearance - in any local area, a species does not arise gradually by the steady transformation of its ancestors; it appears all at once and 'fully formed'" A professor of paleontology from Glasgow University, T. Neville George, admitted this fact years ago: "There is no need to apologize any longer for the poverty of the fossil record. In some ways it has become almost unmanageably rich and discovery is outpacing integration… The fossil record nevertheless continues to be composed mainly of gaps." And Niles Eldredge, the well-known paleontologist and curator of the American Museum of Natural History: "The record jumps, and all the evidence shows that the record is real: the gaps we see reflect real events in life's history - not the artifact of a poor fossil record" But without even getting to the fossil record we can dump the idea of mutations leading to new species. That is because until a new body plan is fully developed by mutation that body plan will be a detriment to the species survival. Thereby by natural selection that species genetic information which gave rise to the mutation will die out due to survival of the fittest. Mutations leading to new organs are of no value until the new organ is fully intergrated and functioning. Until that new organ is fully in working order, working prefectly with the old body plan, then that mutation will be detrimental to the species. Since the theory of evolution is based upon mutations which benefit the species due to survival of the fittest, we reach a self contradictory impasse. This is because all mutations are harmful until the final finished product is in perfect working condition. If you are mutating towards growing wings, until the wings are complete and perfectly integrated into your body, up till then the mutations leading to the wings will be detrimental to your survival. And therefore natural selection would stop the wing mutation process at it's inception because of survival of the fittest. There are other reasons why mutation cannot produce new species having to do with how the proteins in genes work, but that is long and can seen at the website I gave a link to. mentok
theres no evidence that mutations lead to new information. unless you have dna from the hypothetical human chimp ancestor. human and chimp similarities can just as easily be seen as the work of a common designer as opposed to common descent. the chimp and human dna differs by nearly 5% actually, not 1%. and thats a MASSIVE difference. mathematically, theres really no chance that the number of mutations needed to make this difference could have taken place in the supposed 6 million yrs the narrative tells us about. micro changes have shown limits...in every experiment to date, we see that we can use selection to a certain point and mutations only lead to so much change, then we run into a dead end where the life forms involved wont change anymore and will die out. NS cannot account for the changes on any empirical basis. a theoretical narrative that doesnt really stand up to common sense, maybe...but not much else. your claim that we can follow the chimp dna line to humans doesnt make sense. that would only be possible if chimps were the ancestors of humans...thats not even theorized to be the case. since you have no link between chimps and humans (only a hypothetical being no one knows a thing about- besides the fact that artists love to make this being look half chimp and half human!), you cannot make any such tracing of mutations. you dont even know the hypothetical common ancestor, so how would you possibly draw a line from chimps to humans? without even the ancestor candidate, you sure as heck dont have its dna to look at! chimp and human differences- what do you compare them to? each other? that does you little good...you compare chimp to human, then you claim a hypothetical ancestor whose dna you dont have and base your assumptions on a narrative without any empirical evidence whatsoever! when all along, a common designer would make the dna of closely formed life forms the most similar! we share what- 20% of our dna with a houseplant...and that says what? did we evolve from plants? a common designer clearly makes sense...and its easily argued that he/she/it makes more sense than mud to man changes based on a prewritten narrative that allows the data to be crammed into the theory no matter if it fits or not. jboze3131
I found the answer to my question: "This principle holds that, since all mating attempts carried out to transform a species into another have been inconclusive, there are strict barriers among different species of living things." I completely agree that natural selection acting upon standing genetic variation will never produce a new species. There is a limited supply of genetic information contained in a species' gene pool, and selection cannot go beyond that barrier. However, mutation is a key element in evolutionary theory. Through mutation, new information (of neutral value) is continually injected into the gene pool over time. Mutation allows natural selection to explore surrounding genotypes and fix those that are more fit. Ignoring the effects of mutation shows a fundemental misunderstanding of evolutionary theory. cambion
I'm sorry, I don't quite know which question you're referring to. How would you respond to my claim that of a continuum of variation? This is different than trying to claim that this continuum is created by evolution through natural selection. cambion
I'll check it out... cambion
cambion you wrote: "We know exactly what differences exist between human and chimp DNA. Genetic science has shown us that one can connect a human genome and a chimp genome through an unbroken chain of mutations. We are left with now trying to determine the mechanisms by which these mutations accumulated." Beg the question?...much? mentok
cambion the quote from that wesbite which you refer to is preceded by 3 dots like so... and the paragraph before that one ends in 3 dots like so..., the link I gave is what appears between those dots, and more, and the answer to your question is written down there. mentok
One more thing: "Thanks to developments in genetic science, it is now understood that increases in variety within one species can never lead to the emergence of another new species." We know exactly what differences exist between human and chimp DNA. Genetic science has shown us that one can connect a human genome and a chimp genome through an unbroken chain of mutations. We are left with now trying to determine the mechanisms by which these mutations accumulated. cambion
DaveScot, I would think you might be interested in reading some of these as well... cambion
mentok, I've heard arguments very similar to this before. You say: "As we have seen, genetic science has discovered that variations, which Darwin thought could account for “the origin of species,” actually do no such thing." Which genetic science is this? I actually happen to study a lot genetic science. I know of no such discoveries. (Though that doesn't mean they don't exist, I could be ignorant.) One thing that is interesting (and I think shows evidence for a continuum between 'micro' and 'macro' evolution), lies in the human and chimp genomes. Human beings differ from one another at 0.1% of their DNA. Humans and chimps differ at 1% of their DNA. The thing is, in the eyes of 'genetic science' these differences appear to be of exactly the same nature. It looks as though its only a difference of scale and not of quality. (Keep in mind that this doesn't mean there is not some fundemental difference between them, only that we can't see one) I have a proposal for you. I'll read the online book that you linked to, if you'll agree to read (or at the least the ones that look interesting) the following papers. I think these papers should give a decent introduction to modern evolutionary genetics. I suspect you can get them all on Google scholar, however if you'd like I can try to set up a site with PDFs to make things easier. These papers use attempt to assess proportions of genetic changes that are fixed by positive selection as opposed to neutral evolution: Parsch, J., C. Meiklejohn, and D. L. Hartl. 2001. Patterns of DNA sequence variation suggest the recent action of positive selection in the janus-ocnus region of D. simulans. Genetics 159: 647–657. Clark, A. G., S. Glanowski, R. Nielsen et al (17 co-authors). 2003. Inferring nonneutral evolution from human-chimp-mouse orthologous gene trios. Science 302: 1960–1963. Bierne, N., and A. Eyre-Walker. 2004. The genomic rate of adaptive amino acid substitution in Drosophila. Mol. Biol. Evol. 21: 1350–1360. One interesting thing is, that a gene can appear that is advantageous to itself, but not to the organism that carries it. This gene will still be fixed in the population by the action of natural selection. (I think this a good example of prediction of evolutionary theory, that is different from that of design. Why would a designer burden its creations with such genetic baggage). Charlesworth, B., P. Sniegowski, and W. Stephan. 1994. The evolutionary dynamics of repetitive DNA in eukaryotes. Nature 371: 215–220. Hurst, G. D. D., and J. H. Werren. 2001. The role of selfish genetic elements in eukaryotic evolution. Nat. Rev. Genet. 2: 597–606. Ingvarsson, P. K., and D. R. Taylor. 2002. Genealogical evidence for epidemics of selfish genes. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. 99: 11265–11269. How genetic novelty arises is still a poorly understood process, but we are making some decent headway. Lynch, M, and J. S. Conery. 2000. The evolutionary fate and consequences of duplicate genes. Science 290: 1151–1155. Long, M., E. Betrán, K. Thornton, and W. Wang. 2003. The origin of new genes: glimpses from the young and old. Nat. Rev. Genet. 4: 865–875. cambion
cambion you said: "The way I see it right now, however, is that criticisms of evolution remain highly speculative." You are being judge jury and executioner without hearing the defense of the accused. If you actually have read the anti-evolution arguments you would not say such a ignorant thing. Then you said: " Most everyone seems to agree that we see evolutionary by natural selection happening all the time at a very small scale." Most everyone doesn't know what they're talking about. You are refering to what is foolishly called "micro-evolution" by harebrained hack "scientists". In fact the actual name of that phenomena is variation. In every species gene pool there can arise variation in the way the cretaures appear. A human can have black skin or white skin, red hair or brown hair, blue eyes or green eyes. A cow can be large or small, spotted or not. A bird within a certain species canhave different colors, sized, or beak shapes. Variation is not evolution of any type. To call variation micro-evolution is a misnomer since no actual evolving takes place. No new information is added to the gene pool. Variation does not give evidence for evolution because variations are the outcomes of different combinations of already existing genetic information. From http://www.darwinismrefuted.com/origin_of_species_01.html "When Darwin's The Origin of Species was published in 1859, it was believed that he had put forward a theory that could account for the extraordinary variety of living things. He had observed that there were different variations within the same species. For instance, while wandering through England's animal fairs, he noticed that there were many different breeds of cow, and that stockbreeders selectively mated them and produced new breeds. Taking that as his starting point, he continued with the logic that "living things can naturally diversify within themselves," which means that over a long period of time all living things could have descended from a common ancestor. However, this assumption of Darwin's about "the origin of species" was not actually able to explain their origin at all. Thanks to developments in genetic science, it is now understood that increases in variety within one species can never lead to the emergence of another new species. What Darwin believed to be "evolution," was actually "variation...." ...As we have seen, genetic science has discovered that variations, which Darwin thought could account for "the origin of species," actually do no such thing. For this reason, evolutionary biologists were forced to distinguish between variation within species and the formation of new ones, and to propose two different concepts for these different phenomena. Diversity within a species-that is, variation-they called "microevolution," and the hypothesis of the development of new species was termed "macroevolution." These two concepts have appeared in biology books for quite some time. But there is actually a deception going on here, because the examples of variation that evolutionary biologists have called "microevolution" actually have nothing to do with the theory of evolution. The theory of evolution proposes that living things can develop and take on new genetic data by the mechanisms of mutation and natural selection. However, as we have just seen, variations can never create new genetic information, and are thus unable to bring about "evolution." Giving variations the name of "microevolution" is actually an ideological preference on the part of evolutionary biologists. The impression that evolutionary biologists have given by using the term "microevolution" is the false logic that over time variations can form brand new classes of living things. And many people who are not already well-informed on the subject come away with the superficial idea that "as it spreads, microevolution can turn into macroevolution." One can often see examples of that kind of thinking. Some "amateur" evolutionists put forward such examples of logic as the following: since human beings' average height has risen by two centimeters in just a century, this means that over millions of years any kind of evolution is possible. However, as has been shown above, all variations such as changes in average height happen within specific genetic bounds, and are trends that have nothing to do with evolution. In fact, nowadays even evolutionist experts accept that the variations they call "microevolution" cannot lead to new classes of living things-in other words, to "macroevolution." In a 1996 article in the leading journal Developmental Biology, the evolutionary biologists S.F. Gilbert, J.M. Opitz, and R.A. Raff explained the matter this way: "The Modern Synthesis is a remarkable achievement. However, starting in the 1970s, many biologists began questioning its adequacy in explaining evolution. Genetics might be adequate for explaining microevolution, but microevolutionary changes in gene frequency were not seen as able to turn a reptile into a mammal or to convert a fish into an amphibian. Microevolution looks at adaptations that concern only the survival of the fittest, not the arrival of the fittest. As Goodwin (1995) points out, "the origin of species- Darwin's problem-remains unsolved. The fact that "microevolution" cannot lead to "macroevolution," in other words that variations offer no explanation of the origin of species, has been accepted by other evolutionary biologists, as well. The noted author and science expert Roger Lewin describes the result of a four-day symposium held in November 1980 at the Chicago Museum of Natural History, in which 150 evolutionists participated: "The central question of the Chicago conference was whether the mechanisms underlying microevolution can be extrapolated to explain the phenomena of macroevolution. …The answer can be given as a clear, No." cambion you wrote: "mentok, it would really help me if you post / link some of the “large body of scientific research which completely and utterly demolishes evolutionary theory from inside out and from top to bottom.” I’m trying to keep an open mind, please don’t flame me here…" The above link is an excellent site which is an online book which brings together all or most of the current scientific arguments against evolution. It is presented in an easy to read concise and succinct way. Although the author also has strong opinions about his own religion and other things which he links to on the front page of that website, the book itself (chapters on the left, headings on the top} is strictly science and nothing else and very well done. mentok
"If people as you claim study evolution in order to understand the world around them ,then they would not be biased against the anti-evolution arguments." Let me rephrase my claim a bit. I claim 'I' study evolution in order to understand the world around me. I find living things in all their forms and complexity to be fascinating. I want to understand how they got to be that way. I have by no means dismissed ID as a hypothesis. If you look at some of my other posts I have suggested ways of testing some of its predictions. I'm very happy people are looking into these things. Research can only further our understanding of the world, either enhancing support for evolutionary theory, or replacing it with something else. The way I see it right now, however, is that criticisms of evolution remain highly speculative. Most everyone seems to agree that we see evolutionary by natural selection happening all the time at a very small scale. Evolutionary theory makes the speculation / inference that the small scale things we see happening around us can add up to large amounts of change over large amounts of time. ID makes the speculation / inference that lots of small != large. My work focuses on trying to ascertain if we can see natural happening on the DNA sequence level. I'm not entering into things thinking that we'll see all kinds of selection, only asking the question: "do we see the effects of natural selection on the evolution of genes in natural populations." To me, this represents a very concrete sort of question. It becomes about quantitative answers, rather than narrative "just-so-stories" that often told in evolutionary biology. mentok, it would really help me if you post / link some of the "large body of scientific research which completely and utterly demolishes evolutionary theory from inside out and from top to bottom." I'm trying to keep an open mind, please don't flame me here... cambion
It is sad isn't it. I suppose you can't really blame her for telling lies like this though (I suppose she could just be really really stupid, that seems to be common among the "intellgensia" these days). Her worldview is on the line, though she is at least smarter than that moron dawkins when she plays lip service to spirituality. Though I think the right way to confront people like that is to dig away at the definition of science they use. When people realise that only "idelogically correct answers" are allowed (as more and more people do) then they will see that the divide between Young Earthers and Darwinian Naturalists is not where the Naturalists claim it is. Jason jwrennie
DaveScot, that was the best "in a nutshell" treatment of the real core issue regarding the "Darwinian Culture", if you will, that I have read. Well put!!! Bombadill
Cambion "However, comments like these are no way to win over the ’scientific community.’" No harm, no foul. Anyone that isn't "won over" by the facts isn't going to be swayed by rhetoric. All we want to do is stop the suppression of the facts. NeoDarwinian evolution relies on legal chicanery to ban criticism of it or presentation of any contradictory hypotheses in public school. This is simply not right. Not right in a scientific sense, not right in a political sense, and not right in a pedagogical sense. Unfortunately the vocal organs of the science community have driven a stake in the ground and because of their vociferous, overconfident, elitist authoritarian stance have staked their reputation with John Q. Public on the issue. It's too late for them to back out now as the damage of having to say "we were wrong" is now too large to contemplate. What's really a crying shame is that non-vocal working scientists whose professional life is not effected one iota by the NeoDarwinian evolutionary narrative will end up getting tarred by the same brush when all is said and done. ID is going to win the battle for hearts and minds. Make no mistake about that. That's inevitable and is based on objective assessment of facts on the ground. The anti-religious zealots who feel their worldview threatened by ID can only fight this battle using legal chicanery to suppress the presentation of the facts. That battle will be lost because the voters simply won't stand for it. DaveScot
One more thing, as far "winning over the scientific community" goes. Look at it from my perspective. There already exists a large body of scientific research which completely and utterly demolishes evolutionary theory from inside out and from top to bottom. Yet the fact is most "scientists" or atheists refuse to accept that research or even to study it because they think and rightly so that the only possible alternative to evolution is God. Since they reject any possibility of God they therefore do not even consider the arguments against evolution as having any value without even reading them. They are 100% intellectually dishonest and prejudiced. So I think that going about presenting what I consider to be the truth to people who have a mental bloc against God is best done by showing them their own intellectual dishonesty and prejudices. They claim that anti-evolutionists are prejudiced against science and that they are champions of reason and free thinking. Yet the truth is that they are extremely prejudiced and have an irrational mental bloc against the bugababoo "supernatural" potential of the universe as revealed by science itself. mentok
cambion ask yourself this: What value does evolutionary theory have and why is it so important to people who want it force taught onto children? If you are honest with yourself you will conclude that evolutionary theory has no real value. It may fill some kind of emotional need in atheists i.e it serves to give them a sense of "knowing" where life came from, but apart from that it serves no purpose. Except of course for the main purpose it is used for i.e to try and discredit belief in God. I think you are not really aware or you are not being honest when you there are only a few anti-religionists in the evolution camp. As yet I would say easily 99% of all evolutionists I have communicated with, which is many btw, all are strident anti-religionists. If people as you claim study evolution in order to understand the world around them ,then they would not be biased against the anti-evolution arguments. But in reality from my experience almost all evolutionists I have communicated with do not study evolution and they do not study the arguments against evolution. They simply accept the evolutionary paradigm which has been taught to them as absolute infallible truth since they were children, and then they have that fallacy re-enforced throughout their lives by academia and media outlets. They accept arguement from authority when it comes to evolution, authority being the holy all good and pure "scientific community". I don't know who you communicate with but from my extensive blogging and forum and website reading I have yet to meet an truly honest evolutionist. You may feel offended but ask yourself this; have I studied all the scientific arguments for and against evolution? If your answer is no then what right do you have to claim that evolution is good science and that ID is bad science? From my experience almost every evolution propagandist does so because they fear and loath religion. It always comes out in their discourse. They almost only discuss evolution so that they can feel they are fighting against what they see as harmful. You may disagree but I am not blind and I am not a fool. mentok
"Yet the truth is that the evolutionists want to force feed their “religious belief” onto everyone through the public schools. Ardent evolutionists believe in a materialistic ontological world view. An ontological world view is really cognate with a religious belief because it explains the nature of reality." "Evolution is now used solely as a tool to discredit belief in a superior being/intelligence in our universe. It is a tautological weapon whose sole use is in trying to change the ontological perception of people for political and philosophical reasons." There may be a few strident evolutionary theory toting anti-religionists (i.e Dawkins). However, comments like these are no way to win over the 'scientific community.' They just further the divide, make people angry and don't accomplish anything. Almost all of those who study evolution do so, because like most other scientists, they are seeking to understand the world around them. This science vs. religion stuff is ridiculous. ((And I agree there has been a lot of angry rhetoric on the other side of the fence as well)) cambion
My only point is- the far left has transformed the meaning of the Constitution. There never was a wall of Separation between church and state- we know the founders invokved God all the time in public life, offering up days of Thanksgiving, days of prayer, public prayer in session during Congress and the meetings before the establishment of the government, and so on. They even had state churchs that were official to each particular state. Sadly, the left has taken hold of Jefferson's unofficial words to the Danbury Baptists and even twisted THEM. For, even when he spoke of a wall of Separation- he merely wanted to assure the Baptists in question that the government wouldn't allow the establishment of a national church of one Christian denomination over the other. Soon after he wrote the letter, Congress spent hundreds of thousands of government dollars to buy bibles for native Americans for missionary purposes- to try to convert them to Christianity. Point is- the US Supreme Court has perversely changed what Jefferson was saying and meant, and they have, with the gudiance of the far left, have distorted the meaning of the 1st Amendment- taking away freedoms that were once guaranteed, but are now considered nonexistant from the start. That, and they've created new rights of ot thin air. Heck- take the twisting of the Constitution by SCOTUS decisions that have lead to the conception of so-called 'provacy' rights as an example...these are rights which don't exist in the Constitution, yet are constantly used to support a nonexistant Constitutional right to sodomy, abortion, and other activities that Americans have no inherent Constitutional right to! On legal grounds, the secularists have no Constitutional ground to stand up- yet, because SCOTUS has twisted what the 1st Amendment says, and the far left has been implicit in this deception since the 1940's, the courts will rule accordingly. Precedent in this regard is sickening- the lemon test is as bogus as can be...it's UnConstitutional, and it's an afront to the rights of all Americans. And, even past all of this- the parents, who know and pay for the schools with their hard earned money, should be the ones who choose what is taught. That's democracy, like it or not. The left, of course, doesn't like it so much when it comes to this matter. jboze3131
Josh, "no sane person could argue that teaching creationism would be establishing a national religion." I need to say that creationism (that is TRUE creationism, as opposed to ID slander) has no place being taught as science since God is not an empirical agent. I therefore oppose the teaching of creationism in public schools except in a theological or philosophical context. Many different beliefs are held in our nation. All should be respected, and none should receive special attention on their own regard. This is perhaps the biggest reason I have such interest in ID. Secularism is a religion that has taken hold of the public forum. Just look at the way Christ has been purged from "X-mas". The situation has degraded to the point that a teacher can be sued for saying the word "God" in any context that is not blasphemous. I consider my support of ID to be support for the ideologically neutral integrity of science as opposed to the ideologically slanted dogma of Secularism currently being preached from the pulpits of public school science classrooms. David crandaddy
Here is a quote from Eugenie in a April 2002 Science & Theology interview. A link to the whole interview is listed below "Currently, I would describe myself as a humanist or a nontheist." Science & Theology News http://www.stnews.org/Commentary-1835.htm late_model
Why have all of their denunciations of intelligent design been nothing but demagoguery? I have seen nothing of substance in any article which I have read wherein the author denounces intelligent design. Why have I not seen any complaint about this style of "preaching"? I call it preaching because it is indistinguishable from how most religious preachers attack something they don't like. The preacher "knows" the truth because the Holy Book tells him the truth and he is not to be questioned on the authenticity of his belief system. In the same exact way every single attack piece I have read has produced nothing in the way of discourse on the merits or lack thereof of intelligent design. Instead all I have read (which is quite a lot) are demagogic pronouncements about how "science" is being attacked, or "scientists" claim intelligent design is psuedo science, or "intelligent design is trying to force us back to the middle ages" and similar demagogic preaching. Those authors "know" the truth because they have been told by the high priests that the Holy Books on science are infallible and are not to be questioned. They brook no dissent in their inquisition upon non believers. Therefore there is no need to give a rational reason why we should hate everything intelligent design says or is all about. We simply should hate it because the high priests say it is cretinous, nuff said. Turn off your mind and float downstream, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. In truth those demagogues are supremely hypocritical in their rhetoric. They usually claim that those people who want to have a voice to scientifically question "the truth about evolution"; are simply out to push religion onto people. The evolutionist demagogues scream and jump up and down and get all bent out of shape over this. Yet the truth is that the evolutionists want to force feed their "religious belief" onto everyone through the public schools. Ardent evolutionists believe in a materialistic ontological world view. An ontological world view is really cognate with a religious belief because it explains the nature of reality. If someone is trying to force evolution on people through public schools as an infallible dogma, an absolute truth, then in essence they are forcing a religious belief on people. It doesn't matter what type of ontological world view you hold to be true, if public schools are going to teach evolution as an absolute truth then they are teaching one religious belief or ontological world view as absolute truth and superior to all others. What is astounding about people who get all bent out of shape about the possibility of public schools mentioning that evolution is not an infallible absolute truth is that they have so little to base their religious belief on. Evolution is now used solely as a tool to discredit belief in a superior being/intelligence in our universe. It is a tautological weapon whose sole use is in trying to change the ontological perception of people for political and philosophical reasons. mentok
scott, im sorry to say, is a sorry excuse for a "scientist", especially when she arrogantly proclaims: “You can’t really be scientifically literate if you don’t understand evolution,” Scott said. “And you can’t be an educated member of society if you don’t understand science.” so, unless you have a degree in science, study science, or are yourself a scientist, youre not an educated member of society? only those scientists who adhere to an unguided mechanism without purpose or meaning leading to humans are educated?!!! what a pile of horse you know what. the more i read of scott, the more sickening and vile she becomes. jboze3131
Is Eugenie Scott an Atheist? Well just reading between the lines the only two possible answerers i can think of are YEAH & DUH!!!!. I've reached this answer via a meticulous number crunching mathematical formula that i simply call CSF. Some of you might know my work by another name as its also commonly known as the famous "Common Sense Formula" model & yes as with any scientific model before i decided to publish my answer i had it peer reviewed by a team of independent scientist's @ UR the [university of reality ] - lol The day when Eugenie gets converted to Christianity [or anything other than athiesm ]is a day when the heavens themselves depart out of fear :) Why ? because @ that appointed time & hour God would say, WHAT JUST HAPPENED, HAS IT BEGAN ALREADY?!!!. Apparently God forgot to set his proph-o-matic clock and failed to realize [yes even God gets old sometimes:) ] at the very moment Eugeine gets converted to Christianity it signal the the End times has indeed began... lol :) :) :) Charlie Ps - If the end times really does coincides with Eugenies convertence to Christianity , then lets all just pray and hope this doesn't happen anytime soon :) IMO Eugenie Scott - what an amazing character.... Charliecrs
oh wow... this article is sickening, and the writer of the article should be either fired for ignorance and a refusal to do research or lying. this part was especially disgusting:
Scott’s work often takes her into the Bible Belt — the Midwest and the South — but closer to home, a recent conference in San Francisco on “intelligent design” attracted 200 college students and adults. Here Scott was confronted by the relatively new attack on evolution: scientists looking for scientific evidence to prove creationism is true. While organizers insisted that the conference was about science — creation science — not religion, almost all the speakers were creationists. The intelligent design theory says that life on Earth is so complex and intricate that only an intelligent entity could have designed it. “What we call creation science makes no reference to the Bible,” said Duane Gish, vice president of the Institute for Creation Research in San Diego.
intelligent design, monica says...then she suddenly says creation science. then she claims that duane gish is a creation scietist yet an intelligent design proponent. how many lies can ms. monica, with the help of the very dishonest scott, tell? I wonder if Behe and Dembski were aware that they are, as the journalists here writes "scientists looking for scientific evidence to prove creationism is true"?!?! the neverending dishonesty never ends! jboze3131
its so pathetic that the liberal fringe has successfully changed what the constitution actually says about state and religion, and the supreme court since the 40's have been implicit in assisting them distort and perverse the founding document to meet their secular ideology. ------------- "This despite the fact that the U.S. Supreme Court has issued numerous decisions disallowing the teaching of creationism in public schools because it is a religious view and would violate the separation of church and state." no sane person could argue that teaching creationism would be establishing a national religion. nor could any sane person argue that this is protecting an americans freedom of religion- americans are free to exercise their religion PERIOD. SCOTUS, thru the yrs has ruled that americans are only truly allowed to practice their religion in certain places (churches and homes...religion is banned from schools, public office holders, public bldgs, etc.) its pathetic. all of that and i never even mentioned scotts constant lies- calling it "ID creationism". she makes me sick...along with the other fringe fools who have distorted the constitution and its meaning, destroying the freedoms that were once guaranteed to all of us. jboze3131
And let's not forget Eugenie Scott's Hugh Hefner award: http://www.ainews.com/Archives/Story150.phtml. That's the problem with the ID community -- they're not in bed with the right people. salamanca
"I think what bothers me so much of the time,” Scott said, “is they take the data and theory and distort it. They must know they’re distorting." This is the sure sign of hubris. It's what Michael Shermer has done too. They present their case, and when it isn't accepted, instead of considering any merits of the other side, they blame it all on some psychological/religious cause. Ben Z
But there's no connection between atheism and undirected evolution "theory". Nosiree Bob! ;-) DaveScot
Eugenie Scott has been recognized and received awards from the American Humanist Association. Scott’s metaphysics
As I said, Scott is indeed an atheist and materialist. So, how does she reconcile her theoretical positions with her call for a pragmatic separation of the two issues? Scott espouses the view that there is a distinction between methodological materialism and philosophical materialism. The first corresponds to what any practicing scientist would do. We assume that the world is made of matter, and that if there is something else out there, this is simply beyond the scope and reach of the scientific method. The second position is rational, but not scientific. It points to the rational conclusion that there is only matter out there, even though we cannot prove it beyond any doubt. One problem with Scott’s dualism is that, even though technically correct, it smacks of political correctness, or at least lacks philosophical courage.
teleologist
I will never cease to be amazed by those who positively assert that there is no God. Simply mind boggling. Bombadill

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