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A second question for neo-Darwinists, on the age of the Earth

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Here’s a question for neo-Darwinists: “If someone could prove to you that the Earth was ten or even one hundred times younger than the currently accepted figure of 4.54 billion years, would you give up your belief in evolution by natural selection? Or putting it another way, what’s the youngest age that you, as a Darwinian evolutionist, would accept for the age of the Earth? How low would you go?”

In my previous post, A hypothetical question for neo-Darwinists, on the age of the earth, I challenged neo-Darwinian evolutionists to provide an estimate (to the nearest order of magnitude) of how much time it should take for evolution by natural selection to generate complex life-forms like ourselves from the earliest life-forms. Not surprisingly, no Darwinist was brave enough to submit an estimate.

But let that pass. The question I have posed in today’s post is one that any Darwinist should be able to answer. No mathematical calculations are required; all I am asking evolutionists is what they would be prepared to believe. Here’s my challenge: think of a number that represents the minimum amount of time (in years) in which you’d be prepared to accept that life could have evolved from the earliest living thing to complex animals, including ourselves. Write that number down, and please, don’t read any further until you have done so.

The diversity of estimates for the age of the Earth in the 1920s

Now, I’d like readers to have a look at the following passage, from Chapter 2, section 2 of H. G. Wells’ Outline of History (Macmillan, New York, 1921; first edition, 1920). I should point out that Wells was a trained biologist and an ardent supporter of Darwinism, and that he claimed to have had a great deal of assistance from scientists, historians and other specialists in writing his Outline of History (not to mention his liberal use of a manuscript written in 1919 by a Canadian author named Florence Deeks):

Speculations about geological time vary enormously. Estimates of the age of the oldest rocks by geologists and astronomers starting from different standpoints have varied between 1,600,000,000, and 25,000,000. That the period of time has been vast, that it is to be counted by scores and possibly by hundreds of millions of years, is the utmost that can be said with certainty in the matter. It is, quite open to the reader to divide every number in the appended time diagram by ten or multiply it by two; no one can gainsay him. (1921, p. 10)

On page 11, Wells provides two time-scales: one based on a high estimate of 800 million years for the age of the Earth, with life originating 600 million years ago, and the Cenozoic era, or “age of the mammals,” some 40 million years ago, and the other based on a low estimate of 80 million years with life originating 60 million years ago, and with the age of the mammals commencing just 4 million years ago. Think about that: just 60 million years to get “from goo to you,” and a mere 4 million years to get “from shrew to you.” (Although the first mammals appeared in the late Triassic, modern placental mammals are currently believed to have evolved from shrew-like creatures which appeared shortly after the extinction of the dinosaurs, which marks the beginning of the Cenozoic era.) However, if Wells had drawn a time-scale for a 25,000,000-year chronology, which, in his own words, “no one can gainsay” – at least, not in 1921, when he wrote his book – then life would have evolved over a period of less than 20 million years, and the “age of the mammals” would have commenced a mere 1.25 million years ago. I hope my readers will agree that even in Darwin’s day, the absurdity of supposing that evolution could have taken place over such a short timescale would have been readily apparent.

Bear in mind, please, that there is a 64-fold disparity between the highest and the lowest estimates of the age of the Earth, as quoted by H. G. Wells. And bear in mind also that the Scopes trial was held in 1925, just a few years after the publication of Well’s Outline of History.

The scientific consensus regarding the age of the Earth in the nineteenth century

In my previous post, I narrated the story of how William Thomson, the most highly esteemed physicist of his day, who was later made Lord Kelvin, estimated the age of the Earth at 100 million years or so – a number that caused Darwin and his disciples to suffer a great deal of discomfiture, as they realized that there was no way to fit the entire course of life’s evolution into such a short period. Luckily for them, they were subsequently given some extra breathing space by geologists. Wikipedia takes up the story in its article on the age of the earth. To begin with, it describes how well-supported Lord Kelvin’s estimate was, in the nineteenth century. Indeed, Darwin’s own son, the astronomer George H. Darwin, came up with estimates which supported Kelvin’s figure:

In 1862, the physicist William Thomson published calculations that fixed the age of Earth at between 20 million and 400 million years. He assumed that Earth had formed as a completely molten object, and determined the amount of time it would take for the near-surface to cool to its present temperature. His calculations did not account for heat produced via radioactive decay (a process then unknown to science) or convection inside the Earth, which allows more heat to escape from the interior to warm rocks near the surface…

The physicist Hermann von Helmholtz (in 1856) and astronomer Simon Newcomb (in 1892) contributed their own calculations of 22 and 18 million years respectively to the debate: they independently calculated the amount of time it would take for the Sun to condense down to its current diameter and brightness from the nebula of gas and dust from which it was born. Their values were consistent with Thomson’s calculations. However, they assumed that the Sun was only glowing from the heat of its gravitational contraction. The process of solar nuclear fusion was not yet known to science.

Other scientists backed up Thomson’s figures as well. Charles Darwin’s son, the astronomer George H. Darwin, proposed that Earth and Moon had broken apart in their early days when they were both molten. He calculated the amount of time it would have taken for tidal friction to give Earth its current 24-hour day. His value of 56 million years added additional evidence that Thomson was on the right track.

The last estimate Thomson gave, in 1897, was: “that it was more than 20 and less than 40 million years old, and probably much nearer 20 than 40”.

Radioactivity to the rescue?

The lead isotope isochron that Clair Patterson used to determine the age of the solar system and Earth (Patterson, C., 1956, Age of meteorites and the earth, Geochimica et Cosmochimica Acta 10: 230-237). Image courtesy of jmpalin and Wikipedia.

The discovery of radioactivity overturned these estimates, but it took a few decades for the science of radiometric dating to become established and to win scientific acceptance, thanks in no small measure to the indefatigable efforts of the geologist Arthur Holmes (pictured at top, courtesy of Wikipedia):

In 1896, A. Henri Becquerel discovered radioactivity. In 1898, Marie and Pierre Curie discovered the radioactive elements polonium and radium. In 1903 Pierre Curie and his associate Albert Laborde announced that radium produces enough heat to melt its own weight in ice in less than an hour.

Geologists quickly realized that the discovery of radioactivity upset the assumptions on which most calculations of the age of Earth were based. These calculations assumed that Earth and Sun had formed at some time in the past and had been steadily cooling since that time. Radioactivity provided a process that generated heat. George Darwin and John Joly were the first to point this out, also in 1903…

The pioneers of radioactivity were chemist Bertram B. Boltwood and the energetic [Ernest] Rutherford… Boltwood did the legwork, and by the end of 1905 had provided dates for 26 separate rock samples, ranging from 92 to 570 million years. He did not publish these results, which was fortunate because they were flawed by measurement errors and poor estimates of the half-life of radium. Boltwood refined his work and finally published the results in 1907… His studies were flawed by the fact that the decay series of thorium was not understood, which led to incorrect results for samples that contained both uranium and thorium…

Although Boltwood published his paper in a prominent geological journal, the geological community had little interest in radioactivity. Boltwood gave up work on radiometric dating and went on to investigate other decay series. Rutherford remained mildly curious about the issue of the age of Earth but did little work on it.

Robert Strutt tinkered with Rutherford’s helium method until 1910 and then ceased. However, Strutt’s student Arthur Holmes became interested in radiometric dating and continued to work on it after everyone else had given up. Holmes focused on lead dating, because he regarded the helium method as unpromising. He performed measurements on rock samples and concluded in 1911 that the oldest (a sample from Ceylon) was about 1.6 billion years old. These calculations were not particularly trustworthy. For example, he assumed that the samples had contained only uranium and no lead when they were formed.

More important research was published in 1913. It showed that elements generally exist in multiple variants with different masses, or “isotopes”. In the 1930s, isotopes would be shown to have nuclei with differing numbers of the neutral particles known as “neutrons”. In that same year, other research was published establishing the rules for radioactive decay, allowing more precise identification of decay series.

Many geologists felt these new discoveries made radiometric dating so complicated as to be worthless. Holmes felt that they gave him tools to improve his techniques, and he plodded ahead with his research, publishing before and after the First World War. His work was generally ignored until the 1920s

Holmes’s persistence finally began to pay off in 1921, when the speakers at the yearly meeting of the British Association for the Advancement of Science came to a rough consensus that Earth was a few billion years old, and that radiometric dating was credible. Holmes published The Age of the Earth, an Introduction to Geological Ideas in 1927 in which he presented a range of 1.6 to 3.0 billion years. No great push to embrace radiometric dating followed, however, and the die-hards in the geological community stubbornly resisted. They had never cared for attempts by physicists to intrude in their domain, and had successfully ignored them so far. The growing weight of evidence finally tilted the balance in 1931, when the National Research Council of the US National Academy of Sciences decided to resolve the question of the age of Earth by appointing a committee to investigate. Holmes, being one of the few people on Earth who was trained in radiometric dating techniques, was a committee member, and in fact wrote most of the final report.

The report concluded that radioactive dating was the only reliable means of pinning down geological time scales. Questions of bias were deflected by the great and exacting detail of the report. It described the methods used, the care with which measurements were made, and their error bars and limitations…

An age of 4.55 ± 0.07 billion years, very close to today’s accepted age, was determined by C.C. Patterson using uranium-lead isotope dating (specifically lead-lead dating) on several meteorites including the Canyon Diablo meteorite and published in 1956.

To sum up: the scientific consensus regarding the reliability of radiometric dating is barely eighty years old. Neo-Darwinian evolutionists would presumably concede that their theory requires billions of years for it to work. By their own admission, then, there must have been reasonable doubt about the validity of Darwin’s theory of evolution – or, indeed, any other theory which postulated that life had evolved as a result of an unguided process – until as recently as eighty years ago.

Feet to the fire: five questions for neo-Darwinists

I’d like to finish off with five challenging questions for neo-Darwinian evolutionists, and I’d like some honest answers, please:

(1) In view of the fact that the best science of the day supported an estimate of the age of the Earth of no more than 100 million years, which was far too short a time-frame for Darwinian evolution to generate complex animals from the first living cell, will you concede that until 1903 (when geologists realized that these scientific estimates were flawed), Darwin’s theory of evolution could at best have been regarded as a highly speculative hypothesis, which a prudent scientist would have probably rejected?

(2) In view of the fact that radiometric dating did not win general scientific acceptance until 1931, will you also concede that between 1903 and 1931, a prudent scientist would have been perfectly justified in withholding his or her assent to Darwin’s theory of evolution, and in continuing to entertain the hypothesis that (at least some) life-forms had been designed by an intelligent being?

(3) In view of the fact that the Scopes trial was held in 1925, will you concede that the reporters at the 1925 Scopes trial, most of whom displayed a consistent bias against fundamentalism in their news stories, were guilty of a rush to judgement in their public endorsement of evolution?

(4) In view of the fact that Professor Gregory Chaitin, a world-famous mathematician and computer scientist, conceded in his talk, Life as Evolving Software, given on 2 May 2011, that according to current toy models of Darwinian evolution, the evolution of complex life-forms from the simplest living cell should take not billions of years but quintillions of years (as I described in my previous post and at greater length in my earlier post, At last, a Darwinist mathematician tells the truth about evolution, will you concede that it is reasonable for modern-day Intelligent Design theorists to doubt the Darwinian theory of evolution and to entertain the hypothesis that life was designed by an intelligent being?

(5) In view of the fact that the world-renowned evolutionary biologist, Dr. Eugene Koonin, has estimated in his peer-reviewed paper, The Cosmological Model of Eternal Inflation and the Transition from Chance to Biological Evolution in the History of Life, (Biology Direct 2 (2007): 15, doi:10.1186/1745-6150-2-15) that the probability of even a simple life-form evolving in a region the size of the observable universe, within the time available, is less than 10-1,018, in 1 in 1 followed by 1,018 zeroes, and in view of the fact that the multiverse is a highly speculative hypothesis for which no experimental evidence exists, will you concede that the Darwinian theory of evolution must also revert to the status of a highly speculative hypothesis, until solid scientific evidence of the existence of the multiverse is forthcoming?

That concludes my questions for today.

Comments
VJ
Some of the people who read my posts (e.g.wd400) are biologists, by the way.
Maybe one or two scientists read your posts from time to time - but lets face it UD is not on the reading list of most practising scientists and most of those that do read it are banned or discouraged from commenting. Barry has decided that it should essentially be a forum for the ID community to debate among themselves - opponents are subject to unpredictable banishment and moderation. That's fine. It is his forum and he has a perfect right to run it however he wishes. But you really want to challenge the scientific community you will need to post outside this gated community.Mark Frank
November 8, 2013
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Hi VJ
Congratulations for finding an exception to my statement, “If A is speculative and B is speculative, then so is A-or-B.” However, I would say that the statement, “If A is a speculative mechanism and B is also, then A-or-B is as well” holds true.
  I wonder what you mean by a mechanism? Are petrol, diesel and LPG engines mechanisms? If so, given that a car passed this way it is speculation that its mechanism was a petrol engine or that it was a diesel engine or that it was an LPG engine. However, it is pretty certain that it was petrol, diesel, or LPG.  I think you should gracefully admit your error here.  It is obviously possible that there should be two or more speculative mechanisms for something but we should be pretty certain that it is one of them.Mark Frank
November 8, 2013
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Hi Mark Frank, Congratulations for finding an exception to my statement, "If A is speculative and B is speculative, then so is A-or-B." However, I would say that the statement, "If A is a speculative mechanism and B is also, then A-or-B is as well" holds true. I'm glad you've conceded that the case for evolution in the 19th century was not compelling, but merely "respectable." In any case, I would still maintain that even in an age when people knew nothing about DNA, naturalists could have figured out from observations of species stability that the lifetime of a species was closer to 1 million than 100,000 years (actually it's 5 million) and that the number of species "from goo to you" must have beenat least 1,000. Anything less than that, and you don't have evolution anymore; what you have is magic. Some of the people who read my posts (e.g.wd400) are biologists, by the way. Cheers.vjtorley
November 8, 2013
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VJ #51
All well and good, but unless you can show that random variation is sufficient to account for the diversity of life-forms we see on Earth today – in other words, that macroevolution is but microevolution writ large – then you haven’t made a compelling case for evolution.
Assuming we are still talking about the status of Darwin’s theory prior to about 1930, then there was the evidence I pointed to and and a problem that according to the best current estimate of the age of the earth (which was far from proven itself) there wasn’t enough time. As I said this gave the Darwinian theory a respectable but not firmly established status.  The fact that the earth turned out to be much older  strikes me as a very strong vindication of Darwin’s theory. Think of it as a somewhat controversial prediction that came true. The same applies for a particulate mechanism of inheritance. I will let wd400 respond to the stuff on Chaitin.
wd400 also contends that Dr. Eugene Koonin’s calculations regarding the origin of life are “rife with questionable assumptions.” I reproduced the text of Dr. Koonin’s core argument in my recent post, Hoyle’s fallacy? I think not. I invited readers to fault Koonin’s logic, if they could. Not a single scientist attempted to do so.
Are you saying not a single scientist responded to your OP?  Why on earth would you think a single scientist even read it? In any case Koonin’s stuff appears to be about the origin of life which is not the subject of neo-Darwinian evolution.Mark Frank
November 6, 2013
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Neil @53: Apologies, I should have said "universal common descent" (or perhaps common descent across boundaries higher than, say, family). Common descent in the extremely limited sense that creatures come from their parents is of course observed. Common descent that goes much beyond that remains in the realm of speculation.
. . . random mutation leading to change are both observed . . .
Sure, again if we are just talking about minor variations within species. What I referred to was "the idea that random mutations in DNA can lead to new types of organisms." That remains firmly in the realm of speculation as well.Eric Anderson
November 6, 2013
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VJ May I point out a straightforward fallacy in #50:
If A is speculative and B is speculative, then so is A-or-B.
Mr. X lives 50 kms from his work. He has a car but there is also a convenient train and being a fit man he sometimes bicycles. On a specific day the theory that he came to work by train is speculative as are the theories that he came by car and by bicycle. But the theory he came by train or car or bicycle is well established.Mark Frank
November 6, 2013
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And it also applies to abiogenesis, ...
Agreed.
..., and common descent, and the idea that random mutations in DNA can lead to new types of organisms, ...
Common descent and random mutation leading to change are both observed as ongoing processes. The science is mostly about the ongoing processes. There's a lot about the history of life on earth, leading to current species, that has to count as hypothesis. But what is observed and studied as ongoing processes is surely science.Neil Rickert
November 6, 2013
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Neil @49:
Precisely. That applies to ID, and it also applies to string theory.
And it also applies to abiogenesis, and common descent, and the idea that random mutations in DNA can lead to new types of organisms, and all the other hypotheses that come under the broad heading of "evolution." Fair enough.Eric Anderson
November 6, 2013
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Hi wd400 and Mark Frank, Mark Frank lists the following as compelling evidence for evolution: "all the evidence for Common Descent (which I believe you accept), artificial selection, and simple observation of apparently random variation in reproduction." All well and good, but unless you can show that random variation is sufficient to account for the diversity of life-forms we see on Earth today - in other words, that macroevolution is but microevolution writ large - then you haven't made a compelling case for evolution. In response to my claim that even modern scientists (such as Professor Gregory Chaitin) admit that there doesn't appear to be enough time for Darwinian evolution to generate the complex life-forms we see on Earth today from simple organisms, wd400 replies that "Gregory Chaitin's calculation doesn't bear much resemblance to biology as it actually happens." True, but there is a very good reason for that. As Professor Chaitin himself argued, in his 2011 talk, Life As Evolving Software, some of which I transcribed here:
But what happens if you try to make things a little more realistic? You know, no oracles, a limited run time, you know, all kinds of things. Well, my general feeling is that it would sort of be a trade-off. The more realistic your model is – this is a very abstract fantasy world. That's why I'm able to prove these results. So if it's ... more realistic, my general guess will be that it’ll be harder to carry out proofs... Either you're going to prove beautiful theorems because your model is very much in the fantasy world of pure math, of if you make it more realistic, I suspect it would be very difficult or impossible to prove theorems, but you may be able to do massive computer experiments and accumulate suggestive empirical data, so to speak, from big computer runs, looking at typically how these random walks behave...
wd400 also contends that Dr. Eugene Koonin's calculations regarding the origin of life are "rife with questionable assumptions." I reproduced the text of Dr. Koonin's core argument in my recent post, Hoyle's fallacy? I think not. I invited readers to fault Koonin's logic, if they could. Not a single scientist attempted to do so. The crucial sentence in Koonin's argument reads as follows:
In other words, even in this toy model that assumes a deliberately inflated rate of RNA production, the probability that a coupled translation-replication emerges by chance in a single O-region [i.e. observable universe - VJT] is P < 10^(-1,018).
Although Dr. Koonin goes on to say that his model "is not supposed to be realistic by any account," I think it is obvious from his paper that he intended to demonstrate that abiogenesis would not work without a multiverse to enlarge the possibility space. If you think his logic is flawed, then I'd like to hear why. In short: neo-Darwinian evolution still appears to me to be a highly speculative hypothesis at best.vjtorley
November 6, 2013
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Hi wd400 and Mark Frank, Thank you for your comments. Evidence for common descent, taken by itself, is not evidence for evolution, if by "evolution" you mean a natural process through which all living things arose from a common ancestral stock, as a result of laws of Nature which are still in operation today, and without the need for any additional intelligent guidance. [On this definition, the extent of God's involvement in evolution, if any, is limited to His establishing the laws of Nature when creating the universe.] Common descent (which I also accept) is thus a necessary but not a sufficient condition for evolution. I should mention that according to Peter J. Bowler's book, The eclipse of Darwinism: anti-Darwinian evolution theories in the decades around 1900 (Baltimore: Johns Hopkins University Press, 1983), "Kelvin himself favored some form of theistic evolution in which divine guidance speeded up the process." (p. 24) Would either of you call Kelvin an evolutionist? Just curious. As you rightly point out, wd400, there were indeed alternative theories to Darwin's, in the nineteenth century. Some evolutionists posited saltations; others invoked Lamarckian inheritance (a notion which Darwin himself felt obliged to appeal to, in later editions of his Origin of Species). However, the crucial problem with these exotic mechanisms, from a scientific standpoint, was that there was not a scintilla of experimental evidence for them, whereas the operation of natural selection could be readily observed by any naturalist. Thus alternative evolutionary theories to Darwin's could only be described as speculative hypotheses at best. You seem to believe that some "grand disjunction" of all the above naturalistic theories - either Darwin's theory or saltationism or orthogenesis or Lamarckianism - would have made the theory of evolution, broadly defined, intellectually irresistible to any fair-minded person living after Darwin published his Origin of Species. But when I look at this "grand disjunction," here is what I see: a theory [Darwinism] which relies on a known mechanism but which (on the evidence available at the time) seemed unlikely to be able to generate life in all its diversity within the maximum time allowable for the age of the Earth, plus several other theories for which there was zero experimental evidence at the time. Since each of the disjuncts was a speculative hypothesis in the year 1900, I can only conclude that the "grand disjunction" of all these theories was also a speculative hypothesis. (If A is speculative and B is speculative, then so is A-or-B.) To be continued...vjtorley
November 6, 2013
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Eric:
OK, so hypotheses themselves aren’t “science,” but they inform the scientific investigation.
Precisely. That applies to ID, and it also applies to string theory.
Incidentally, in your view would you say that at some point a hypothesis becomes science?
It's hard to say what that means. Some people seem to think that a scientific theory is a well supported hypothesis. But I don't agree with that. A well supported hypothesis might develop into a theory, but that involves lots of change from the original hypothesis. And some hypotheses do well on tests but become little more than a footnote in history.Neil Rickert
November 6, 2013
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VJ #40
What would you describe as the most compelling evidence for Darwinism, prior to 1903?
As presented by Darwin and Wallace – all the evidence for Common Descent (which I believe you accept), artificial selection,  and simple observation of apparently random variation in reproduction.
And why would you describe the two difficulties you raised as mere “unsolved problems” rather than evidence against Darwin’s theory at that time? (I’m reminded of Cardinal Newman’s saying that ten thousand difficulties do not make a doubt. It’s funny to see evolutionists employing similar distinctions!)
It is a matter of degree. They were obviously major concerns but neither the age of the earth or the nature of inheritance was firmly fixed. They were big enough concerns to effectively put Darwin’s theories on hold until the neo-Darwinian synthesis came along.Mark Frank
November 5, 2013
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Apologies for the mispost. Neil:
All confirmed cases of intelligent design used natural processes.
I'm not trying to get into esoteric discussions of natural vs. supernatural or something like that or whether purposeful design can be considered a "natural" process. I'm just using the terms in the ordinary way they are typically used and understood. Regardless, my question was simply intended to help me ascertain if you were drawing a distinction between design and non-design hypotheses in terms of their being "science," which you addressed with your next comment, so I think I'm there.
The possibilities are speculative hypotheses, awaiting supporting evidence.
OK, so hypotheses themselves aren't "science," but they inform the scientific investigation. As long as we're putting all hypotheses on equal footing, I suppose that is one possible way to look at it, (although the effort to formulate a hypothesis is generally considered a part of the "scientific method"). Anyway, I appreciate the clarification. I thought from your initial comment perhaps you were making a substantive distinction between design and non-design, but I see you are just making a semantic distinction between a hypothesis and the scientific endeavor of investigating the hypothesis. ----- Incidentally, in your view would you say that at some point a hypothesis becomes science? In other words, at what point does a "speculative hypothesis awaiting supporting evidence" become part of science? At the point where it is considered a "fact," based on some kind of consensus, or does it never actually become science (science being just the investigative process)? Thanks,Eric Anderson
November 5, 2013
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Neil:
All confirmed cases of intelligent design used natural processes.
Eric Anderson
November 5, 2013
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Eric:
However, you then seem to be saying that the possibility the widget came about by design is not science? If so, that presumably means that the possibility the widget came about through purely natural processes is also not science?
I'm not sure of the point there. All confirmed cases of intelligent design used natural processes. Even the Biblical account of man being from from dust of the ground seems to suggest natural processes (plus guidance).
Let’s take a concrete example. An object, the Moon, exists. The process of investigating its origin can be considered science, I presume we agree. If there are various possibilities about its origin, the process of investigating those possibilities is therefore science. What does it mean to say that the possibilities themselves aren’t science?
The possibilities are speculative hypotheses, awaiting supporting evidence.Neil Rickert
November 5, 2013
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Brent:
Which is just stating boldly (and contradictorily) what you, a short time ago, ridiculed me for saying: that evolutionary hypothesizing believes evolution took a long time, and therefore finding fossils in the dirt is supposed evidence of how old the dirt is. You apparently want to suggest that geologists could date fossils without assumptions, like that evolutionary theory was true and the fossils must be old.
As far as I know, geologists were actually using fossil evidence to date rocks prior to Darwin proposing his theory of evolution. The way geologists used that evidence did not depend on assumptions about evolution. They correlate the kind of fossils with the age as determined by other indicators. From that, they show that the kind of fossil is a good measure of age. And then they use that measure in other places where the fossils are the only indicators.Neil Rickert
November 5, 2013
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Neil @34:
We were not discussing any actual historical fact. We were discussing the possibility that something might eventually turn out to be historical fact.
Bear with me a moment, because I'm trying to understand your point here. Let's assume a historical fact occurred -- say, a novel widget came into existence. Then let's assume we don't presently know whether the widget was designed or came about through purely natural processes. Theory A suggests the widget was designed. Theory B suggests the widget came about through purely natural processes. I understand you to say that the process of investigating Theory A and the process of investigating Theory B are both science. I'm with you there. However, you then seem to be saying that the possibility the widget came about by design is not science? If so, that presumably means that the possibility the widget came about through purely natural processes is also not science? Presumably one goal of science is to investigate and learn about the world -- how things came about, why they are the way they area, how they work, etc. So I'm not sure what it means to say that the "possibility" of something isn't science. Let's take a concrete example. An object, the Moon, exists. The process of investigating its origin can be considered science, I presume we agree. If there are various possibilities about its origin, the process of investigating those possibilities is therefore science. What does it mean to say that the possibilities themselves aren't science? Are we simply saying that the existence of the Moon itself isn't science or that the historical fact of the Moon's existence isn't science?Eric Anderson
November 5, 2013
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Neil,
This is getting silly. I see a glass of water on that table. That counts as evidence that the table exists. It also counts as evidence that the glass exists.
Which means that the two being found together is irrelevant, as you, yourself, continue and say . . .
Nevertheless, I cannot conclude that the existence of the table is evidence for the glass, nor can I conclude that the existence of the glass is evidence for the table.
So neither is evidence of, or supporting evidence of, the other. So why, before, did you act as if you were saying something special in saying that the two independent facts were found together? You admit neither supports the other.
Geologists use fossil evidence as part of how the estimate ages. Biologists use fossil evidence as supporting evolution.
Which is just stating boldly (and contradictorily) what you, a short time ago, ridiculed me for saying: that evolutionary hypothesizing believes evolution took a long time, and therefore finding fossils in the dirt is supposed evidence of how old the dirt is. You apparently want to suggest that geologists could date fossils without assumptions, like that evolutionary theory was true and the fossils must be old. To use fossils as evidence for age, there must be independent evidence of the age of the fossils. This supposed independence, however, leans on the idea that evolution, and the time needed to accomplish it, are true. But, if you wish to say that the evidence for the age of the fossils is truly independent, then whence the idea that that independent evidence being found together is in any way significant? As per your own analogy, the evidence of the table is just that you see a table like structure, and the evidence for the glass is just that you see a glass like structure. That they are found together is of no relevance. Now, you may want to throw up your hands at this point and say it's pointless to try to reason with me, but that would be wrong, I think. Why? Because, in the context of what Dr. Torley is talking about, the whole point isn't, simply, old or young, but rather, old enough, or, too young. And he then goes on to suggest that, indeed, there have been times in the past, and again presently, that it appears the time available for evolution is not adequate. The independent verification of the age of the earth, then, is the only important factor. And, if it is, what is, again, the supposed significance that the same evidence for evolution is also evidence for the age of the earth? The only logical reason I can come up with is that you want to suggest that evidence for the age of the earth is bound up in the fossil evidence because evolutionary time scales are necessarily true because evolution is true.
It does not follow that the age of the earth is evidence for evolution. And it does not follow that evolution by itself determines the age of the earth.
You've now allowed yourself some wiggle room. Interesting.
If there’s a hypothetical case for the earth being younger than we believe, then that hypothetical case must say a lot about the fossil evidence. Don’t ask me to make conclusions about the implications for evolution, without telling me what that hypothetical case says about the fossil evidence.
Either the case for the age of the earth being adequate for evolutionary time scales is strong or it is not. If the question on the table is, "Can we believe in Neo-Darwinian evolution based on evidence of the age of the earth?", you cannot say that Neo-Darwinian evolution is true and so the required time must be available. If the theory is questionable at all (which is the real point), then you cannot refer to its veracity to confirm that which it is itself in need of gaining credence from.Brent
November 5, 2013
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When was the last year scientists were permitted to openly discuss the prospect of Common Descent being false without inspiring a witch-hunt?lifepsy
November 5, 2013
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Hi Mark Frank, Thank you for your comments. I was struck by your remarks on the status of Darwin's theory of evolution prior to 1903:
Unproven, but not highly speculative. There was compelling evidence for it but also major unsolved problems – the age of the earth being one, the need for a particulate as opposed to blended inheritance mechanism being another. This would give it the status of say string theory at the moment. Not accepted – but not rejected.
What would you describe as the most compelling evidence for Darwinism, prior to 1903? And why would you describe the two difficulties you raised as mere "unsolved problems" rather than evidence against Darwin's theory at that time? (I'm reminded of Cardinal Newman's saying that ten thousand difficulties do not make a doubt. It's funny to see evolutionists employing similar distinctions!)vjtorley
November 5, 2013
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wd400
"the evidence for the fact of evolution (common descent) is so strong that it hasn’t been seriously questioned since Darwin’s generation."
Maybe 'common descent', the idea that all life evolved from a common ancestor, should be finally be 'seriously questioned'?
Scant search for the Maker Excerpt: But where is the experimental evidence? None exists in the literature claiming that one species has been shown to evolve into another. Bacteria, the simplest form of independent life, are ideal for this kind of study, with generation times of 20 to 30 minutes, and populations achieved after 18 hours. But throughout 150 years of the science of bacteriology, there is no evidence that one species of bacteria has changed into another, in spite of the fact that populations have been exposed to potent chemical and physical mutagens and that, uniquely, bacteria possess extrachromosomal, transmissible plasmids. Since there is no evidence for species changes between the simplest forms of unicellular life, it is not surprising that there is no evidence for evolution from prokaryotic to eukaryotic cells, let alone throughout the whole array of higher multicellular organisms. - Alan H. Linton - emeritus professor of bacteriology, University of Bristol. http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?storycode=159282 "I think the tree of life is an artifact of some early scientific studies that aren't really holding up." - Dr. Craig Venter, American Biologist - quoted from following video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXrYhINutuI Here Are Those Incongruent Trees From the Yeast Genome - Case Study - Cornelius Hunter - June 2013 Excerpt: We recently reported on a study of 1,070 genes and how they contradicted each other in a couple dozen yeast species. Specifically, evolutionists computed the evolutionary tree, using all 1,070 genes, showing how the different yeast species are related. This tree that uses all 1,070 genes is called the concatenation tree. They then repeated the computation 1,070 times, for each gene taken individually. Not only did none of the 1,070 trees match the concatenation tree, they also failed to show even a single match between themselves. In other words, out of the 1,071 trees, there were zero matches. Yet one of the fundamental predictions of evolution is that different features should generally agree. It was “a bit shocking” for evolutionists, as one explained: “We are trying to figure out the phylogenetic relationships of 1.8 million species and can’t even sort out 20 yeast.” In fact, as the figure above shows, the individual gene trees did not converge toward the concatenation tree. Evolutionary theory does not expect all the trees to be identical, but it does expect them to be consistently similar. They should mostly be identical or close to the concatenation tree, with a few at farther distances from the concatenation tree. Evolutionists have clearly and consistently claimed this consilience as an essential prediction. But instead, on a normalized scale from zero to one (where zero means the trees are identical), the gene trees were mostly around 0.4 from the concatenation tree with a huge gap in between. There were no trees anywhere close to the concatenation tree. This figure is a statistically significant, stark falsification of a highly acclaimed evolutionary prediction. http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2013/06/here-are-those-incongruent-trees-from.html That Yeast Study is a Good Example of How Evolutionary Theory Works - Cornelius Hunter - June 2013 Excerpt:,,, The evolutionists tried to fix the problem with all kinds of strategies. They removed parts of genes from the analysis, they removed a few genes that might have been outliers, they removed a few of the yeast species, they restricted the analysis to certain genes that agreed on parts of the evolutionary tree, they restricted the analysis to only those genes thought to be slowly evolving, and they tried restricting the gene comparisons to only certain parts of the gene. These various strategies each have their own rationale. That rationale may be dubious, but at least there is some underlying reasoning. Yet none of these strategies worked. In fact they sometimes exacerbated the incongruence problem. What the evolutionists finally had to do, simply put, was to select the subset of the genes or of the problem that gave the right evolutionary answer. They described those genes as having “strong phylogenetic signal.” And how do we know that these genes have strong phylogenetic signal. Because they give the right answer. This is an example of a classic tendency in science known as confirmation bias. You search for the evidence that confirms your hypothesis, and ignore or explain away the rest. This is what happens when the theory is in control. The theory determines the right answer. One way or another, the study will arrive at the right answer, no matter what is required. http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2013/06/that-yeast-study-is-good-example-of-how.html Oops, Evolution Forgot About the Eukaryotes - February 14, 2013 Excerpt: How about this 1998 paper in which the evolutionists admit that “One of the most important omissions in recent evolutionary theory concerns how eukaryotes could emerge and evolve.” Evolution omitted how eukaryotes could emerge and evolve? That would be like physics omitting gravity, politics omitting elections or baseball omitting homeruns. Yet this paper came more than a century after evolutionists began insisting that it is beyond all reasonable doubt that the species, and that would be all the species, arose spontaneously. http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2013/02/oops-evolution-forgot-about-eukaryotes.html
Nor does the experimental evidence suggest that such a transition from single cell aggregates to multicellular organisms is possible. To highlight the monumental problem that Darwinian processes face in going from a single cell to a multicellular creature, it is found that,,
"The likelihood of developing two binding sites in a protein complex would be the square of the probability of developing one: a double CCC (chloroquine complexity cluster), 10^20 times 10^20, which is 10^40. There have likely been fewer than 10^40 cells in the entire world in the past 4 billion years, so the odds are against a single event of this variety (just 2 binding sites being generated by accident) in the history of life. It is biologically unreasonable." Michael J. Behe PhD. (from page 146 of his book "Edge of Evolution")
And yet, Dr. Behe, on the important Table 7.1 on page 143 of Edge Of Evolution, finds that a typical cell might have some 10,000 protein-binding sites. Whereas a conservative estimate for protein-protein binding sites in a multicellular creature is,,,
Largest-Ever Map of Plant Protein Interactions - July 2011 Excerpt: The new map of 6,205 protein partnerings represents only about two percent of the full protein- protein "interactome" for Arabidopsis, since the screening test covered only a third of all Arabidopsis proteins, and wasn't sensitive enough to detect many weaker protein interactions. "There will be larger maps after this one," says Ecker. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/07/110728144936.htm
So taking into account that they only covered 2%, of the full protein-protein "interactome", then that gives us a rough number, for different protein-protein interactions, of 310,000. Thus, from my very rough 'back of the envelope' calculations, we find that this is at least 30 times higher than Dr. Behe's estimate of 10,000 different protein-protein binding sites for a typical single cell (Page 143; Edge of Evolution; Behe). Therefore, at least at first glance from my rough calculations, it certainly appears to be a impossible step that evolution cannot make, by purely unguided processes, to go from a single cell to a multi-cellular creature. Experimental work agrees with this conclusion:
More Darwinian Degradation - M. Behe - January 2012 Excerpt: Recently a paper appeared by Ratcliff et al. (2012) entitled “Experimental evolution of mulitcellularity” and received a fair amount of press attention, including a story in the New York Times.,,, It seems to me that Richard Lenski, who knows how to get the most publicity out of exceedingly modest laboratory results, has taught his student well. In fact, the results can be regarded as the loss of two pre-existing abilities: 1) the loss of the ability to separate from the mother cell during cell division; and 2) the loss of control of apoptosis. http://behe.uncommondescent.com/2012/01/more-darwinian-degradation/
Moreover, the fossil record does not support common descent from a single cell organism:
"We go from single cell protozoa. which would be ameoba and things like that. Then you get into some that are a little bit bigger, still single cell, and then you get aggregates, they're still individual cells that aggregate together. They don't seem to have much in the way of cooperation,,, but when you really talk about a functioning organism, that has more than just one type of cell, you are talking about a sponge and you can have hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands of cells. So we don't really have organisms that function with say two different types of cells, but there is only five total. We don't have anything like that." - Dr. Raymond G. Bohlin - quote taken from 31:00 minute mark of this following video Natural Limits to Biological Change 2/2 - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo3OKSGeFRQ Challenging Fossil of a Little Fish Excerpt: “I think this is a major mystery in paleontology,” said Chen. “Before the Cambrian, we should see a number of steps: differentiation of cells, differentiation of tissue, of dorsal and ventral, right and left. But we don’t have strong evidence for any of these.” Taiwanese biologist Li was also direct: “No evolution theory can explain these kinds of phenomena.” http://www.fredheeren.com/boston.htm
Also see Meyer's NY Times bestselling book: "Darwin's Doubt"bornagain77
November 5, 2013
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Most of these questions form exhibit 134,123 in the case against using "Darwinism" to describe all of evolutionary biology. The apparently young age of earth was one of the reasons for the so called "Eclipse of Darwinism" at the turn of the 20th century (a realtively minor one, it turns out). But it was Darwin's theory of evolution that had troubles with a young earth - the evidence for the fact of evolution (common descent) is so strong that it hasn't been seriously questioned since Darwin's generation. Your first 3 questions force a false dichotomy between a particular theory of evolution and the fact evolution has happened. Gregory Chaitin's calculation dosn't bear much resemblence to biology as it happens and Koonin's calculation are about the origin of life and (like all such calculations)rife with questionable assumptions.wd400
November 5, 2013
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Brent: This is getting silly. I see a glass of water on that table. That counts as evidence that the table exists. It also counts as evidence that the glass exists. Nevertheless, I cannot conclude that the existence of the table is evidence for the glass, nor can I conclude that the existence of the glass is evidence for the table. Geologists use fossil evidence as part of how the estimate ages. Biologists use fossil evidence as supporting evolution. It does not follow that the age of the earth is evidence for evolution. And it does not follow that evolution by itself determines the age of the earth. If there's a hypothetical case for the earth being younger than we believe, then that hypothetical case must say a lot about the fossil evidence. Don't ask me to make conclusions about the implications for evolution, without telling me what that hypothetical case says about the fossil evidence.Neil Rickert
November 5, 2013
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Neil, No. You said:
Evolution is supported by a mountain of evidence.
Very clear.
Much of that evidence also counts as support for the age of the earth.
Seems clear: that evidence for evolution also counts as support for the age of the earth. I.E., for example, we know the earth must be old because evolution is thought to happen slowly. If your goal is to assess the veracity of a hypothesis it does little good to say the hypothesis, if true, tells us one thing that then is supposed to verify the hypothesis. Here you either have independent evidence for the old age of the earth, consistent with evolution, or you are going in circles. You wedded evolutionary theorizing with the age of the earth, but there should be no reason to. I don't see what evidence there is supposed to be that just happens to independently give evidence to both. Perhaps there is, but I doubt it; and even if there is, you needn't have worded your post as you did.
Nobody could prove the earth to be much younger, without first countering that evidence.
Well, if I'm right, it is going to be hard to counter circular evidence if someone is determined to accept it.Brent
November 5, 2013
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Eric:
Indeed, it was the failure of the paleontological record to behave properly and follow Darwin’s “innumerable slight successive” changes, that prompted Gould & Co. to propose punctuated equilibrium. Yes, that rhetorical stroke of genius which essentially adopted as its doctrine the idea that evolution happens too fast and too remotely for it to be detected. It is always happening just out of reach of our ability to observe. That’s why there is a dearth of observational evidence — indeed, that lack of evidence is just what our theory predicts! Brilliant!
Evolution is mostly about setting up unfalsifiable, models and rescue devices, and then claiming them to be scientific because the unfalsifiability is "predicted".lifepsy
November 5, 2013
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Eric:
but (ii) the actual historical fact of something being designed is not science?
We were not discussing any actual historical fact. We were discussing the possibility that something might eventually turn out to be historical fact.
However, I can’t help but feeling like perhaps this is an example of selectively-applied skepticism. For instance, we can think of many concepts in biology that are incompletely defined, or poorly defined, or where definitions are open to dispute.
There's a difference between using poorly defined concepts (which we all do), and making poorly defined concepts the centerpiece of what is claimed to be a scientific theory. My objection is to the latter. By comparison, I also object to the assertion in epistemology, that knowledge = justified true belief. That attempts to define knowledge in terms of three hopelessly vague concepts. Likewise, I have long thought that what AI people call "intelligence" is not even close to what we ordinarily mean by intelligence. ID proponents won't define their terms. Yet they arbitrarily reject that evolution is itself a system of intelligent design. That's the problem we have here. No, I don't think this is selective skepticism.Neil Rickert
November 5, 2013
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goodusername @30: Right, because evolution happens slowly, except when it happens quickly. :) But what we do know, is that it always seems to happen just out of reach of our observations. That was the brilliance of Gould's punctuated equilibrium: of course you don't observe evolution actually happening -- that is just what our theory predicts!Eric Anderson
November 5, 2013
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Brent:
It seems that it would be good, then, to explain what the person with better reading comprehension was supposed to take from your words
I would hope that they would take me to have said just what I said. In particular, I would hope that they would not make a clearly fallacious inference from what I said, and then claim that I had asserted the conclusion of that clearly fallacious inference.Neil Rickert
November 5, 2013
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Neil @9:
There is no such implication from what I wrote. All I said that was being a possibility does not make it science. Investigating that possibility could be science. But it would be the investigation, not the possibility, that would be science.
Thank you for the clarification and please accept my apologies if my question sounded accusatory. I'm struggling a bit to understand the distinction you are drawing. If I hear you correctly, you are saying two things: (i) the endeavor of investigating whether something was designed could be science; but (ii) the actual historical fact of something being designed is not science? I guess I'm not clear on the distinction you are drawing.
I think I have been clear in earlier posts, that I am not committed to materialism or to naturalism. I am committed to the importance of evidence and investigation. As to what constitutes adequate evidence and adequate investigation, I’ll judge that after the fact. It’s not up to me to place limits on how a researcher does his work. It is up to me to decide, after the fact, whether I am persuaded by the evidence provided.
Well said.
One of the problems posed by ID, is that we do not have clear agreement on what constitutes intelligence, and on what constitutes design. While it might be unreasonable to insist on clear definitions prior to the completion of a research program, it is essential to have clear definitions by before evaluating the claimed conclusions of such research.
I hear your point about wanting more precise definitions of words like "intelligence" and "design." However, I can't help but feeling like perhaps this is an example of selectively-applied skepticism. For instance, we can think of many concepts in biology that are incompletely defined, or poorly defined, or where definitions are open to dispute. Evolutionary theory even more so. And yet, that does not necessarily mean that those areas aren't science. Furthermore, there are other fields that use the concepts of intelligence and design quite fruitfully, notwithstanding that we don't have a precise definition of the terms. The failure to have a precise definition may indeed prevent some people from getting on board with the particular evidence presented, but it doesn't mean we aren't dealing with science.Eric Anderson
November 5, 2013
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If species were evolving all the time, then they would have expected to see a new one arise, once in a while. The fact that they hadn’t seen any would have suggested that the lifetime of a species would be on the order of say, 1 million years. They must have also realized that more than 100 steps were required to get from a bacterium to a human being. Hence they must have realized that 100 million years were not enough.
If "Darwin's Bulldog" and Darwinism's co-founder don't count as Darwinists, I'm not sure who, besides Darwin, does. :-) If by "evolving all the time" you mean constant morphological change, even Darwin didn't believe that. As Darwin wrote in Origin: "Many species once formed never undergo any further change... and the periods, during which species have undergone modification, though long as measured by years, have probably been short in comparison with the periods during which they retain the same form." So, yes, in stable conditions a species can be likewise very stable with no noticeable change taking place. But Darwin believed that pretty substantial change had taken place via artificial selection in very short periods of time, with new varieties arising in mere centuries, even decades, that are arguably new species. And Darwin saw that new species seem to arise very quickly in nature under certain conditions, such as on young islands. So it would hardly make sense to try to use the stable periods of a species as a kind of clock to measure how long it would take, in general, to get from a bacterium to a human being. Actually, Darwin would probably agree that, yes, there are lineages from the early earth - bacteria - that have developed very slowly (if at all) for many millions of years as you described - that's why there's still bacteria.goodusername
November 5, 2013
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