Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

L&FP, 64: The challenge of self-referentiality on hard questions (thus, of self-defeating arguments)

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One way to define Philosophy, is to note that it is that department of thought that addresses hard, core questions. Known to be hard as there are no easy answers.

Where, core topics include metaphysics [critical analysis of worldviews on what reality is, what exists etc], epistemology [core questions on “knowledge”], logic [what are the principles of right reason], ethics/morals [virtue, the good, evil, duty, justice etc], aesthetics [what is beauty], and of course meta issues emerging from other subjects such as politics, history, Mathematics, Theology/Religion, Science, Psychology, Medicine, Education etc. As we look at such a list, we can see that one reason why these are difficult is that it is very hard to avoid self-referentiality on such topics, opening up question-begging on one hand and self-referential, self-defeating incoherence on the other.

For striking example, in his 1994 The Astonishing Hypothesis, Nobel Laureate Sir Francis Crick [a co-discoverer on the structure and function of DNA], went on ill-advised record:

. . . that “You”, your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll’s Alice might have phrased: “You’re nothing but a pack of neurons.” This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing.

The late Philip Johnson, of course, aptly replied that Sir Francis should have therefore been willing to preface his works thusly: “I, Francis Crick, my opinions and my science, and even the thoughts expressed in this book, consist of nothing more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules.” Johnson then tellingly commented: “[t]he plausibility of materialistic determinism requires that an implicit exception be made for the theorist.” [Reason in the Balance, 1995.]

This problem is fairly widespread, and a point that should be borne in mind when we try to argue on big questions. Regrettably, this seems harder to do than one might at first imagine.

However, Elton Trueblood, building on Josiah Royce, may have put a way forward on the table, though this turns on an irony. For, one of the points of consensus of debate is that error exists. For empirical evidence, kindly refer to primary school sums duly marked with the infamous big red X’s. (That’s why I went out of my way to use green as my marking colour . . . )

However, this is not just an empirical fact, it is an undeniably true and self-evident knowable truth. To see this, set E = error exists, and try to deny it ~E. But this means, E is . . . an error. Oops. So, we know the very attempt to deny E instantly produces patent absurdity, a self defeating self contradiction. But this simple result is not a readily dismissed triviality. No, apart from being a gentle reminder that we need to be careful, it shows that self evident, certainly knowable truth exists which instantly undercuts a wide swath of radical relativist views. Their name is Legion, in a post modern world.

We can widen the result, take any reasonably identifiable subject, G. Assign, that O is the claim that some x in G is an objective, i.e. warranted and credibly reliable truth. Try to deny it, ~O. Has o shifted away from G? No, it is still a claim on the subject matter G. So, it refutes itself. Once there is a reasonably identifiable subject, there are objective knowable truths about and in G. This is a first such truth. Of course on many topics, the second truth is, we know little more than the first truth. That is Mr Donald Rumsfeld’s known unknowns. Beyond lurk, the unknown unknowns.

BTW, Morality and History count as reasonably identifiable topics, as do Economics, Politics, etc. Controversy does not prevent us from knowing truths.

And, Dallas Willard et al (with slight adjustment) are right:

To have knowledge in the dispositional sense—where you know things you are not necessarily thinking about at the time—is to be able to represent something as it is on an adequate basis of thought or experience, not to exclude communications from qualified sources (“authority”). This is the “knowledge” of ordinary life, and it is what you expect of your electrician, auto mechanic, math teacher, and physician. Knowledge is not rare, and it is not esoteric . . . no satisfactory general description of “an adequate basis of thought or experience” has ever been achieved. We are nevertheless able to determine in many specific types of cases that such a basis is or is not present [p.19] . . . . Knowledge, but not mere belief or feeling, generally confers the right to act and to direct action, or even to form and supervise policy. [p. 20] In any area of human activity, knowledge brings certain advantages. Special considerations aside, knowledge authorizes one to act, to direct action, to develop and supervise policy, and to teach. It does so because, as everyone assumes, it enables us to deal more successfully with reality: with what we can count on, have to deal with, or are apt to have bruising encounters with. Knowledge involves assured

[–> warranted, credible] truth, and truth in our representations and beliefs is very like accuracy in the sighting mechanism on a gun. If the mechanism is accurately aligned—is “true,” it enables those who use it with care to hit an intended target. [p. 4, Dallas Willard & Literary Heirs, The Disappearance of Moral Knowledge, Routledge|Taylor& Francis Group, 2018. ]

Of course, that easily leads to the situation where false or tainted or materially incomplete knowledge claims can capture this prestige, so our knowledge institutions should be open to reform.

For this, an adapted JoHari window is helpful:

Coming back to focus, let us be on guard against making errors of self referentiality. END

Comments
F/N: try restarting your PC, you may have entered an odd state. KFkairosfocus
January 29, 2023
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Jerry, we must understand the mindset we are dealing with. The design inference on good signs is solid. That is not the issue. Here, we have an OP on a core logical problem tied to issues and it has surfaced an underlying proposed "mechanism" meant to subvert any design inference with, strong form emergence. That needs to be identified and shown for what it is, imposing a default in defence of an ideology; a principle not subject to any empirical test. How can you answer empirically to oh, it emerged in ways that cannot be deduced from prior circumstances and principles. You can only expose that this is present and what it is equivalent to, magick. KFkairosfocus
January 29, 2023
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Ba77, As I'm sure you know, Darwinist ideas must be promoted at all costs or God gets back into science, which you have pointed out. They can't allow a Divine foot in the door. Also, if Evolution was not promoted, those looking for answers could default to ID, which could get into the schools and pulpits. Not a good idea - for certain people.relatd
January 29, 2023
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the issue is not merits, rights, publications etc. It is, that we have determined lawless ideological oligarchs who have wormed their way into influence and power
While true to some extent, I have no idea what this has to do with what I said. I will continue to push focusing on ID. No one seems interested in that here. I have been reviewing comments from 17 years ago and finding interesting observations. I just found Giuseppe Puccio’s original comments. I can edit a comment on my IPad but not the computer I have. I am adding this now. Wondering what the difference is?jerry
January 29, 2023
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ideological oligarchs who have wormed their way into influence and power who — lawless — are ruthless, vindictive and cruel. This of course includes the same academy now spouting absurdities across many domains and demanding that we bow before such rubbish presented under colour of knowledge
"I think there is no God because I want to be god. " I've heard in many debates (theists vs atheists ) theists saying BS like : "Of course you can be moral being atheist" . Never. Unbelievers are not moral people because to be moral requires an unbelievable struggle and focus and that 's is not enough you need God's direct help to become a moral person . Let's not confound interested behaviour and hypocrisy with morality.Sandy
January 29, 2023
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KF @ 82, PM1 @83
KF: These poof magic emergentists reject the PSR.
Absolutely. That is their thing.
PM1: I don’t have any problems with weak emergence.
Other than the fact that is a completely superfluous term, I have no objection either. As Eric Anderson wrote:
EA: The problem is when the word emergence is used as an answer to how something came about or as a causal explanation. The only reason you know that water “emerges” from H and O is because you know that H and O will react to produce water. If you didn’t know the underlying cause, it would be illegitimate to claim that water emerges from them. You might suspect it. You might not know of another explanation. But you wouldn’t be able to say that H + O, on their own, produce water. (Further, as I’ve already mentioned, calling the process “emergence” doesn’t add anything to our knowledge or understanding. It is completely superfluous. If people want to run around using superfluous terminology, fine. But they shouldn’t expect anyone else to take them seriously.) Worse, when emergence itself is put forth as though it were a process or a cause, it is simply false. That is the problem with how the word is so often used, particularly in debates about evolution and consciousness.
So, the claim that consciousness, the free rational person, "emerges" from neuronal processes, just like water “emerges” from H + O (weak emergence), is as easily refutable as it always was. It can be treated just like the good old nonsensical materialistic claim.
My real qualms concern his use of “in principle” when it comes to strong emergence. That’s not to say that therefore strong emergence is a hopeless concept; I do think that Chalmers has correctly identified a need for a distinction here. I just don’t think that he’s correctly articulated that distinction.
Strong emergence, if the tortured concept makes any sense at all, is the only concept that pretends to offer an **explanation** (**POOF**) of consciousness, the free rational person, that differs from the utterly failed attempts of good old nonsensical materialism.Origenes
January 29, 2023
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Interesting, I am finding the inability to edit a comment on the computer I have with me while away. Usually I can edit a comment to change typos or grammar or correct usage. I will have to see if my IPad has the same issuejerry
January 29, 2023
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OT:
Mama Bear Apologetics: Empowering Your Kids to Challenge Cultural Lies by Hillary Morgan Ferrer https://www.amazon.com/Mama-Bear-Apologetics-Empowering-Challenge/dp/0736976159/ “I’m thrilled to see a book of this caliber written for moms! Mama Bear Apologetics is engaging and accessible without minimizing the seriousness of the subject matter. I’m particularly pleased by the inclusion of chapters on so-called progressive Christianity and postmodernism. Readers will gain effective tools for dismantling some of the more dangerous ideologies that pervade contemporary culture—and be able to equip their children to follow suit.” —Melissa Cain Travis, PhD, author of Science and the Mind of the Maker: What the Conversation Between Faith and Science Reveals About God Podcast: Mama Bear Apologetics Takes on Atheist Richard Dawkins https://idthefuture.com/1701/ Today’s ID the Future puts atheist Richard Dawkins’s book Outgrowing God under the microscope and reveals multiple ways his argument smashes up against contrary scientific evidence. Walking us through the critique are author and Mama Bear Apologetics founder Hillary Morgan Ferrer and her co-host, Amy Davison.
bornagain77
January 29, 2023
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PM1, Chalmers has put his finger on the problem, there is a magickal ideology of poof, emergence and once the camel's nose is under the tent, the whole beast will follow unless it is solidly restrained by recognising some form or other of sufficient reason. Thus, logic of being. And from non being, nothing comes. KFkairosfocus
January 29, 2023
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Jerry, the issue is not merits, rights, publications etc. It is, that we have determined lawless ideological oligarchs who have wormed their way into influence and power who -- lawless -- are ruthless, vindictive and cruel. This of course includes the same academy now spouting absurdities across many domains and demanding that we bow before such rubbish presented under colour of knowledge. If the craziness of US politics since 2015 did not convince us, the global mishandling of the pandemic and the surge in before time deaths should. To clench the nail over, someone paid 40+ billions to expose what was happening with Twitter and apart from a few outlets, it isn't hardly news much less the global, epochal scandal it should be. There will be no fair hearing, there will be no fair court cases, there will be no reasonable responses. The lawless oligarchs and their ideology will have to be exposed and broken, with a serious alternative in place through a David generation, trained in the College of Adullam's Cave. As an extension school of that College, let us remember the saying that a good newspaper is the people's college. Update it for our ICT era. This fight will take a generation or two, but let us remember what happened to the Iron Curtain in the end, the pity is, there being no viable successor for Russia, Putin's KGB mafia seized clearly criminal power and is now embarked on expansionism. I have long stressed that, historically, the default form of government is lawless oligarchy; since July 4, 1776 [the 1619 rubbish is blatant agit prop], the viable alternative is lawful, reform-minded constitutional, representative democracy and it matters not whether there is a president or a constitutional monarch. The equivalent of the late, great Queen Elizabeth II would have done the US much good. The ID issue is part of a civilisational crisis and the issue is to stand, not to make premature compromises with the lawless who only respect determined, superior force. Kindly, see Plato's parable of the ship of state. KFkairosfocus
January 29, 2023
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That’s not to say that therefore strong emergence is a hopeless concept
Of course it's hopeless. It is self refuting just as every form of naturalized Evolution is self refuting. The greater the changes hypothesized, the more obvious the self refutation.jerry
January 29, 2023
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David Chalmers is probably the living philosopher with whom I most enjoy disagreeing. He is utterly brilliant and I always learn something from figuring out why I disagree with him. The distinction between "weak emergence" and "strong emergence" is no exception. I don't have any problems with weak emergence. One feature of weak emergence that needs some consideration (which I'm sure Chalmers has done) is the relationship between retrospective explanation and predictability. I doubt that the basic principles of quantum mechanics -- the wave function and some definition of orbitals -- would allow one to predict the viscosity and conductivity of water. But one can use quantum mechanics to explain why water has the conductivity it has. Once you understand some ideas of subatomic structure, it's easy to see why a molecule with one oxygen atom and two hydrogen atoms would have one weak negative charge and two weak positive charges. From there it's easy to understand why some molecules will be hydrophobic or hydrophilic, depending on their distributions of electrical charge. Some basic knowledge of subatomic structure and some thermodynamics is sufficient to explain why phospholipids in water will spontaneously form a bilayer, even if a phospholipid bilayer were unexpected given the principles of subatomic structure alone. My real qualms concern his use of "in principle" when it comes to strong emergence. How do we determine what is and what is not "in principle" deducible? Surely not what is deducible by us. Then by whom? The Vulcan Science Academy? The Time Lords of Gallifrey? God? It's impossible to say. And that makes "not deducible even in principle" a vacuous concept. That's not to say that therefore strong emergence is a hopeless concept; I do think that Chalmers has correctly identified a need for a distinction here. I just don't think that he's correctly articulated that distinction.PyrrhoManiac1
January 29, 2023
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Origenes
With emergentism, a new type of causation has been introduced: causation from insufficient causes. An obvious violation of the principle of sufficient reason.
These poof magic emergentists reject the PSR. Unsurprising, as much flows from it, it is an enormously powerful principle that is the root of the causal principle [contingent beings are caused, necessary ones are framework to worlds, impossible candidates have contradictory core characteristics and cannot exist] and is tied to logic of being; as was just outlined. Instead of getting into grand debates over strong form PSR, I simply pose a weak,freedom of inquiry form. We can ask why then explore per logic of being. Bring in possible worlds as sufficiently complete descriptions of how this world is/may be/was/might have been, or another world and away we go. Candidates C may be impossible of being, or possible, i.e. would be in at least one PW were it actualised. Of possibles, contingent ones are not in all worlds, necessary ones are in all. NBs are framework for any world. Compare a world W in which C is to a near neighbour W' without C and we identify a causal constraint on C. And more. So, we see that a weak form PSR is useful. KFkairosfocus
January 29, 2023
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A comment from 17 years ago
I hope this will erase the complacency on this web site that ID is winning the war on the teaching of evolution in the US. If a state like Kansas cannot elect people that support the mild criteria that were part of their science standards, then ID is now losing the battle. We can tell ourselves all we want how the Darwinists are disassembling but I see nothing out “there” that confirms this. I know no one of my personal acquaintances except my wife who doesn’t think Darwin is the received view and is probably the correct view. This includes all my children and is a topic we do not discuss because they prefer not to. Now my children and my friends do not know very much about it but if you start discussing evolution you are looked upon as a loony and humored. The Darwinists are definitely winning the PR battle.
Until those who support ID, change their tactics this will remain true. If anything it has gotten worse for ID over the years.jerry
January 29, 2023
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Sandy @74 ~The (strong) emergence concept stems from the extreme reductionist mindset.
Chalmers: We can say that a high-level phenomenon is strongly emergent with respect to a low-level domain when the high-level phenomenon arises from the low-level domain, but truths concerning that phenomenon are not deducible even in principle from truths in the low-level domain.
Let that sink in: B “arises from” A, but B is “not deducible even in principle from” A ... IOW emergentists say, if we encounter a high-level phenomenon that cannot be explained even in principle from the low-level domain (its parts), then we say that the high-level phenomenon is explained/arises from its parts anyway. In emergentism, if the lower-level domain suffers utter failure as a sufficient cause for the high-level phenomenon, the lower-level domain is **NONETHELESS** identified as the sole cause. It is called **EMERGENCE** (**POOF**). That is, WRT causes, emergentists are focused on the low-level domain only and beforehand exclude any other type of cause from consideration. And emergentists offer as a final explanation: the higher level **POOF** emerges from the lower level—end of the analysis. So, emergentists claim that an insufficient cause (the low-level domain) can, on its own, produce an effect, that it cannot explain. With emergentism, a new type of causation has been introduced: causation from insufficient causes. An obvious violation of the principle of sufficient reason. Suppose that it has been conclusively established that consciousness cannot be explained by neurons and their interactions. Could we then all agree that, given the fact that consciousness is not caused by neurons, materialism as an explanation for everything has failed, and that logic informs us that consciousness is therefore NOT a (high-level) phenomenon that arises from the (low-level) of neurons, and move on? Nooo! No, that would not happen, because the emergentists would step in with their insane claim that **BECAUSE** consciousness cannot be explained by neurons it must **EMERGE** (**POOF**) from neurons.
Sandy: Do you mean *Poof *POOF * poof?
Forgive me for being unclear. You are right, I meant three successive **POOFS**Origenes
January 29, 2023
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HN42, excellent question. I find in the Chalmers corpus:
We can say that a high-level phenomenon is strongly emergent with respect to a low-level domain when the high-level phenomenon arises from the low-level domain, but truths concerning that phenomenon are not deducible even in principle from truths in the low-level domain. 1 Strong emergence is the notion of emergence that is most common in philosophical discussions of emergence, and is the notion invoked by the British emergentists of the 1920s. We can say that a high-level phenomenon is weakly emergent with respect to a low-level domain when the high-level phenomenon arises from the low-level domain, but truths concerning that phenomenon are unexpected given the principles governing the low-level domain. _____________ 1 In philosophers’ terms, we can say that strong emergence requires that high-level truths are not conceptually or metaphysically necessitated by low-level truths. Other notions in the main text can also be formulated in these modal terms, but I will mainly talk of deducibility to avoid technicality. The distinction between conceptual and metaphysical necessity will not be central here, but in principle one could formulate finer-grained notions of strong emergence that take this distinction into account. [Strong and Weak Emergence]
Yes, interactions of entities may yield unexpected results, which we may struggle to account for, a classic case being the discovery of chaos, leading to the famous case of a PhD based on dripping of a pipe. However, the not deducible in principle is worlds different from, unexpected. That is an opening to question begging ideological imposition, and to the problems of self reference where we are implicated. This comes out in evolutionary materialistic, scientistic accounts of origin of man, mind, morals, credible bodies of knowledge. That is precisely the issue with Darwin's horrid doubt. He projected the problem to critics of his . . . ah, ah, okay . . . theory. But, from the above it is clear that -- apart from the perceptions of those bound up in the commitments and convictions invited and cultivated by Darwinism -- doubts about the credibility of convictions of a monkey mind, are a case of a generally corrosive self referential acid. J B S Haldane saw it:
[JBSH, REFACTORED AS SKELETAL, AUGMENTED PROPOSITIONS:] "It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For
if [p:] my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain [–> taking in DNA, epigenetics and matters of computer organisation, programming and dynamic-stochastic processes; notice, "my brain," i.e. self referential] ______________________________ [ THEN] [q:] I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. [--> indeed, blindly mechanical computation is not in itself a rational process, the only rationality is the canned rationality of the programmer, where survival-filtered lucky noise is not a credible programmer, note the functionally specific, highly complex organised information rich code and algorithms in D/RNA, i.e. language and goal directed stepwise process . . . an observationally validated adequate source for such is _____ ?] [Corollary 1:] They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence [Corollary 2:] I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. [--> grand, self-referential delusion, utterly absurd self-falsifying incoherence] [Implied, Corollary 3: Reason and rationality collapse in a grand delusion, including of course general, philosophical, logical, ontological and moral knowledge; reductio ad absurdum, a FAILED, and FALSE, intellectually futile and bankrupt, ruinously absurd system of thought.]
In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” ["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. Cf. here on (and esp here) on the self-refutation by self-falsifying self referential incoherence and on linked amorality.]
Materialistic reductionism has no recourse but to atoms and the like, which we know can be organised into a signal processing, computational substrate. We see analogue signal processing, digital and summing gate plus threshold networks [neural networks]. Each is dependent on functional organisation and is information rich. Each is GIGO-limited and each is a signal processing entity, not a freely, responsibly rational agent. What is hoped for -- or is outright asserted -- is that high complexity, memory elements, feedback loops, self modification [aka "learning"] etc -- will give rise to agency in some unexpected, unpredictable manner. Including of course information in copious quantities from success filtered lucky noise. This is why proponents are resistant to the manifest, fine tuned nature of such FSCO/I rich systems, i.e. islands of function in the midst of seas of non function in a configuration space of possibilities. Which is a reliable, readily observed characteristic. If you doubt such, take time to visit a hardware store and see how even humble nuts and bolts or gears must be precisely fitted together. Such is less visible in computers, electronics etc, but it is there. It is also there in biological systems, just ask a doctor. The end of the dominance of evolutionary materialistic scientism will not come overnight. It will come as bit by bit, ever more epicycles must be added to keep things going. Backed, by ever more blatant power politics to lock out alternatives. Such as, censorship and career busting. Which, as we know, are already happening. KFkairosfocus
January 29, 2023
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PM1, it is precisely because of the slipperiness of "naturalism," that I draw out briefly, the focal form, evolutionary materialistic scientism. All are agreed that scientific methods, so called [they are legion, per Feyerabend] are often highly effective even though the sense of knowledge is a weak, defeasible form given the pessimistic induction. But, that is the general usage. Where, in particular, as scientific theories and models [as opposed to observations] are explanatory, predictive constructs, they may be reliable but cannot be deemed true as proved by observations; inferences to the best so far explanations are always just that -- so far. Science, too, lives by faith, similar to Mathematics, post Godel. However, crucially, science cannot monopolise or dominate or else it becomes a stalking horse for whatever ideology of the day prevails in relevant institutions; which is precisely what has been happening. Where, moreover, knowledge is inherently a philosophical topic, properly studied under epistemology and there is even a branch called philosophy of science. Further to such, mathematics, key to the hard sciences is inherently about issues of logic of being tied to patterns of structure and quantity and associated abstract logic model worlds. KFkairosfocus
January 29, 2023
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Seversky at 71 pays lip service to valuing empirical evidence Sev: "You could say it (empirical evidence) has more practical value and is more reliable because it has been tested against observable reality.." Yet Seversky never puts his money where his mouth is. i.e. Seversky never allows the empirical evidence to falsify his apriori belief in Darwinian evolution. Here are a few empirical falsifications of Darwin's theory that the vast majority of Darwinists simply ignore as if they do not matter to the overall scientific validity of their theory.
1. Darwin’s theory holds mutations to the genome to be random. The vast majority of mutations to the genome are not random but are now found to be ‘directed’. 2. Darwin’s theory holds that Natural Selection is the ‘designer substitute’ that produces the ‘appearance’ and/or illusion of design. Natural Selection, especially for multicellular organisms, is found to be grossly inadequate as the ‘designer substitute. 3. Darwin’s theory holds that mutations to DNA will eventually change the basic biological form of any given species into a new form of a brand new species. Yet, biological form is found to be irreducible to mutations to DNA, nor is biological form reducible to any other material particulars in biology one may wish to invoke. 4. Darwin’s theory, (via Fisher’s Theorem in population genetics), assumed there to be an equal proportion of good and bad mutations to DNA which were, ultimately, responsible for all the diversity and complexity of life we see on earth. Yet, the ratio of detrimental to beneficial mutations is overwhelmingly detrimental. Detrimental to such a point that it is seriously questioned whether there are any truly beneficial, information building, mutations whatsoever. 5. Charles Darwin himself held that the gradual unfolding of life would (someday) be self-evident in the fossil record. Yet, from the Cambrian Explosion onward, the fossil record is consistently characterized by the sudden appearance of a group/kind in the fossil record, (i.e. disparity), then rapid diversity within the group/kind, and then long term stability and even deterioration of variety within the overall group/kind, and within the specific species of the kind, over long periods of time. Of the few dozen or so fossils claimed as transitional, not one is uncontested as a true example of transition between major animal forms out of millions of collected fossils. Moreover, Fossils are found in the “wrong place” all the time (either too early, or too late). 6. Darwin’s theory, due to the randomness postulate, holds that patterns will not repeat themselves in supposedly widely divergent species. Yet thousands of instances of what is ironically called ‘convergent evolution’, on both the morphological and genetic level, falsifies the Darwinian belief that patterns will not repeat themselves in widely divergent species. 7. Charles Darwin himself stated that “If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.” Yet as Doug Axe pointed out, “Basically every gene and every new protein fold, there is nothing of significance that we can show that can be had in that gradualistic way. It’s all a mirage. None of it happens that way.” 8. Charles Darwin himself stated that “If it could be proved that any part of the structure of any one species had been formed for the exclusive good of another species, it would annihilate my theory, for such could not have been produced through natural selection.” Yet as Wolf-Ekkehard Lönnig pointed out, “in thousands of plant species often entirely new organs have been formed for the exclusive good of more than 132,930 other species, these ‘ugly facts’ have annihilated Darwin’s theory as well as modern versions of it.” 9. Charles Darwin himself stated that, ““The impossibility of conceiving that this grand and wondrous universe, with our conscious selves, arose through chance, seems to me the chief argument for the existence of God. Yet ‘our conscious selves’ are certainly not explainable by ‘chance’ (nor is consciousness explainable by any possible reductive materialistic explanation in general), i.e. ‘the hard problem of consciousness’. 10. Besides the mathematics of probability consistently showing that Darwinian evolution is impossible, the mathematics of population genetics itself has now shown Darwinian evolution to be impossible. Moreover, ‘immaterial’ mathematics itself, which undergirds all of science, engineering and technology, is held by most mathematicians to exist in some timeless, unchanging, immaterial, Platonic realm. Yet, the reductive materialism that Darwinian theory is based upon denies the existence of the immaterial realm that mathematics exists in. i.e. Darwinian evolution actually denies the objective reality of the one thing, i.e. mathematics, that it most needs in order to be considered scientific in the first place! 11. Donald Hoffman has, via population genetics, shown that if Darwin’s materialistic theory were true then all our observations of reality would be unreliable and/or illusory. Yet the scientific method itself is based on reliable observation. Moreover, Quantum Mechanics itself has now shown that conscious observation must come before material reality, i.e. falsification of ‘realism’ proves that our conscious observations are reliable!. 12. The reductive materialism that undergirds Darwinian thought holds that immaterial information is merely ’emergent’ from a material basis. Yet immaterial Information, via experimental realization of the “Maxwell’s Demon” thought experiment, is now found to be its own distinctive physical entity that, although it can interact in a ‘top down’ manner with matter and energy, is separate from matter and energy. 13. Darwinists hold that Darwin’s theory is true. Yet ‘Truth’ itself is an abstract property of an immaterial mind that is irreducible to the reductive materialistic explanations of Darwinian evolution. i.e. Assuming reductive materialism and/or Naturalism as the starting philosophical position of science actually precludes ‘the truth’ from ever being reached by science! 14. Darwinists, due to their underlying naturalistic philosophy, insist that teleology (i.e. goal directed purpose) does not exist. Yet it is impossible for Biologists to do biological research without constantly invoking words that directly imply teleology. i.e. The very words that Biologists themselves are forced to use when they are doing their research falsifies Darwinian evolution. Darwinism vs. Falsification - list and link to defense of each claim https://docs.google.com/document/d/1I6fT6ATY700Bsx2-JSFqL6l-rzXpMcZcZKZfYRS45h4/edit
Verse:
1 Thessalonians 5:21 but test all things. Hold fast to what is good.
bornagain77
January 29, 2023
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Regarding strong emergence -- Is there any way to test for the difference between strong emergence and not having any explanation at all? I don't have a problem with weak emergence but that only represents a category of explanation rather than an explanatory principle in itself. With strong emergence, if it's permissible to define an explanatory principle purely in terms of its inability to explain, then the statement "Science explains everything." becomes a tautology. Something's wrong there.hnorman42
January 29, 2023
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Whistler @64 and Bornagain77 @69, I've mentioned this before in other posts, but it bears repeating. The earliest example in history of an experiment using the complete scientific method can be found in . . . the Bible! Skeptical?
The First Recorded Scientific Experiment in History Jews and Christians have a rich legacy in scientific endeavors and discoveries. The first rigorous scientific experiment recorded in history is found in the writings of Daniel, a young Jewish captive of the Babylonian empire. Daniel and his friends did not want to eat the choice Babylonian food ordered for them by the king. As described in Daniel 1:11-16, Daniel’s experiment in nutrition included the essential components of the scientific method: • A hypothesis • A set period of time • More than one experimental subject • Both an experimental group and a control group • Well-defined parameters • A change in a single variable • An independent evaluator • Observation and analysis—subjective in the absence of blood tests • A written record • A grant This text is astonishing considering that Daniel’s experiment was conducted about 2,600 years ago! As a result, Daniel and his friends received a grant—they were allowed to maintain their vegetarian diet.
-QQuerius
January 28, 2023
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Origenes Emergentism is the hypothesis that something that cannot be explained from its parts nonetheless follows(?) from its parts and therefore **MAGICALLY** emerges from its parts **POOF**.
Do you mean *Poof *POOF * poof? :)Sandy
January 28, 2023
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Sev 71 So what? Vividvividbleau
January 28, 2023
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~ Eric Anderson on **emergence**
It is true that we can use words (like “instinct”) to describe things that are not well understood. It is also true that the word “emerge” is a perfectly legitimate word in the English language that can be used appropriately in many situations. This isn’t the problem. The problem is when the word emergence is used as an answer to how something came about or as a causal explanation. The only reason you know that water “emerges” from H and O is because you know that H and O will react to produce water. If you didn’t know the underlying cause, it would be illegitimate to claim that water emerges from them. You might suspect it. You might not know of another explanation. But you wouldn’t be able to say that H + O, on their own, produce water. (Further, as I’ve already mentioned, calling the process “emergence” doesn’t add anything to our knowledge or understanding. It is completely superfluous. If people want to run around using superfluous terminology, fine. But they shouldn’t expect anyone else to take them seriously.) Worse, when emergence itself is put forth as though it were a process or a cause, it is simply false. That is the problem with how the word is so often used, particularly in debates about evolution and consciousness. Consider the following examples: “A light emerged in the darkness.” or “A wolf emerged from the forest.” These are perfectly legitimate uses of the word “emerge”. In each case they tell us that something appeared that was not previously there – that we observed something new. Yet these statements are not attempting to be a causal explanation. No-one is claiming that the darkness somehow produced the light, or that the forest trees somehow produced the wolf.” So when we ask the question How?, it is a causal inquiry, and references to emergence are unhelpful, at best, and more often, misleading. If someone is claiming that a living organism emerged from the primordial soup or that consciousness emerged from electrical impulses between neurons, they are offering a causal explanation. And the idea of emergence doesn’t work in that capacity. It fails, both practically and logically. (....) If emergence is a class of explanations, then there must be examples of emergence that would fall into this “class or category”. One alleged example was discussed in the OP, namely the idea of the emergence of consciousness from physical properties and physical processes. CR gave another alleged example: the “universality of computation”. There are two fundamental problems with CR’s approach above: 1. We have been discussing concrete examples. His ongoing assertion that there is some kind of category error between the class and the specific examples doesn’t make any sense. It is irrational to say that “emergence” is unhelpful as a class of explanations, but helpful as a concrete explanation. This is very confused. I can certainly say that “Bob drives a car”, and that could be useful information, even if I don’t give the concrete make, model, and year of the car. The issue in this whole situation is not whether we are referring to a class or a specific member of the class. The issue is that the concept of “emergence” as an explanatory attempt to explain the origin of something is useless. It doesn’t make any difference whether we are talking about specific examples or the whole class. CR seems to have mistakenly latched onto what he perceives as some kind of category error, all the while missing the more fundamental point. 2. In none of the cases we have been discussing — consciousness or the universality of computation, for example — has the word “emergence” provided one iota of useful information. It has brought nothing to the table. Saying that it “emerged” doesn’t help us understand how it emerged or what physical characteristics caused it to emerge or even whether it did emerge. Contrary to CR’s claim, the fact that universality of computation resulsts from a specific repertoire of computations does not mean we have an “emergent explanation“. Putting that label on the results doesn’t explain anything. Thus, the OP is exactly correct to suggest that emergence really functions as “a confession of profound ignorance masquerading as an explanation.” —– As with so much in materialist thought, the explanations sound good as long as they remain vague and general. As soon as we start to ask about the details, the “explanation” crumbles. As I have often noted with evolutionary theory generally, the same principle can be applied to emergence: The perception of the explanatory power of emergence is inversely proportional to the specificity of the discussion.
Origenes
January 28, 2023
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Vividbleau/66
As StephenB would say “Reason informs the evidence not the other way around”
Reason without data is vacuous. For example, borrowing from Lewis Carroll. All borogoves are mimsy, All mome raths are borogoves, Therefore, all mome raths are mimsy. A basic deductive argument but so what? On the other hand, a collection of facts without an explanatory framework into which they can be fitted and which makes sense of them, is no more than a collection of butterflies. Interesting, but so what?
Empirical knowledge is not the highest form of knowledge.
Depends on what you mean by "highest" You could say it has more practical value and is more reliable because it has been tested against observable reality..
This is the reason many atheists ( not all) hate philosophy, often times deny reason and logic all the while totally ignorant that their “empiricism” is itself a philosophical position. Go figure.
I think there are a few atheists/empiricists/naturalists/physicalists etc, who regard philosophy as a futile exercise in circumlocutory tergiversation but I'm not one of them. As for empiricism being a philosophical position, so what?Seversky
January 28, 2023
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What is emergence? What does “emergent” mean? […] Emergent broadly speaking refers to novel types of behavior in systems with many interacting constituents. A good example is the “La ola” wave that you sometimes see in the audience of sporting events. It’s not something you can do alone. It only becomes possible because of the interaction between people and their neighbors. Indeed, something very similar happens in many condensed-matter systems, where the interactions between atomic constituents gives rise to certain types of collective behavior. These can be waves, like with la ola. The simplest example of this are sound waves. Sound waves are really just a simple, collective description for atoms in a gas that move periodically and so create a propagating mode. But we know that in quantum mechanics waves are also particles and the other way round. This is why in condensed matter systems one can have “quasi-particles” which behave like particles – with quantum properties and wave-behavior and all that – but are actually a collective that moves together. Quasi-particles are emergent from the interactions of many fundamental particles. And this is really the most relevant property of emergence. Something is emergent if it comes about from the collective behavior of many constituents of a system, be that people or atoms. If something is emergent, it does not even make sense to speak about it for individual elements of the system. There are a lot of quantities in physics which are emergent. Think for example of conductivity. Conductivity is the ability of a system to transport currents from one end to another. It’s a property of materials. But it does not make sense to speak of the conductivity of a single electron. It’s the same for viscosity, elasticity, even something as seemingly simple as the color of a material. Color is not a property you find if you take apart a painting into elementary particles. It comes from the band structure of molecules. It’s an emergent property. You will find that philosophers discuss two types of emergence, that is “strong emergence” and “weak emergence”. What I just talked about is “weak emergence”. Weak emergence means that the emergent property can be derived from the properties the system’s constituents and the interactions between the constituents. An electron or a quark may not have a conductivity, but in principle you can calculate how they form atoms, and molecules, and metals, and then the conductivity is a consequence of this. In physics the only type of emergence we have is weak emergence. With strong emergence philosophers refer to the hypothetical possibility that a system with many constituents displays a novel behavior which cannot be derived from the properties and the interactions of the constituents. While this is logically possible, there is not a single known example for this in the real world. The best analogy I can think of are photographic mosaics, that are photos made up of smaller photos. If I gave you all the individual photos and their properties you’d have no idea what the “emergent” picture will be. However, this example is hardly a natural phenomenon. To make a photographic mosaic, you start with the emergent image you want to get and then look for photos that will fit. In other words, the “strong emergence” which you have here works only thanks to an “intelligent designer” who had a masterplan. The problem with strong emergence is not only that we have no scientific theory for it, it’s worse. Strong emergence is incompatible with what we already know about the laws of nature. That’s because if you think that strong emergence can really happen, then this necessarily implies that there will be objects in this world whose behavior is in conflict with the standard model of particle physics. If that wasn’t so, then really it wouldn’t be strong emergence. […]Seversky
January 28, 2023
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Whistler, modern science was born in Medieval Christian Europe out of three Judeo-Christian presuppositions, (1) Intelligibility, (2) The Contingency of Nature, and (3) The Fallibility of Human Reasoning.
New Book: For Kepler, Science Did Not Point to Atheism - Stephen C. Meyer - January 17, 2023 The Conflict Myth Unmade,,, As historian Ian Barbour says, “science in its modern form” arose “in Western civilization alone, among all the cultures of the world,” because only the Christian West had the necessary “intellectual presuppositions underlying the rise of science.”2 So, what were those presuppositions? We can identify three. As Melissa Cain Travis shows, (in her book: "Thinking God’s Thoughts: Johannes Kepler and the Miracle of Cosmic Comprehensibility"), all have their place in Kepler’s seminal works. More generally, all find their origin in the Judeo-Christian idea of a Creator God who fashioned human beings and an orderly universe. (1) Intelligibility First, the (Christian) founders of modern science assumed the intelligibility of nature. They believed that nature had been designed by the mind of a rational God, the same God who made the rational minds of human beings. These thinkers assumed that if they used their minds to carefully study nature, they could understand the order and design that God had placed in the world.,,, (2) The Contingency of Nature Second, early pioneers of science presupposed the contingency of nature. They believed that God had many choices about how to make an orderly world. Just as there are many ways to design a watch, there were many ways that God could have designed the universe. To discover how He did, scientists could not merely deduce the order of nature by assuming what seemed most logical to them; they couldn’t simply use reason alone to draw conclusions, as some of the Greek philosophers had done.,,, (3) The Fallibility of Human Reasoning Third, early scientists accepted a biblical understanding of the power and limits of the human mind. Even as these scientists saw human reason as the gift of a rational God, they also recognized the fallibility of humans and, therefore, the fallibility of human ideas about nature.,,, Such a nuanced view of human nature implied, on the one hand, that human beings could attain insight into the workings of the natural world, but that, on the other, they were vulnerable to self-deception, flights of fancy, and prematurely jumping to conclusions. This composite view of reason — one that affirmed both its capability and fallibility — inspired confidence that the design and order of nature could be understood if scientists carefully studied the natural world, but also engendered caution about trusting human intuition, conjectures, and hypotheses unless they were carefully tested by experiment and observation.11,,, https://evolutionnews.org/2023/01/new-book-for-kepler-science-did-not-point-to-atheism/ Stephen Meyer - Ph.D. in the philosophy of science from the University of Cambridge
And the 'scientific method', or more particularly, the 'bottom-up' inductive reasoning that lays behind the scientific method, was championed and popularized by Francis Bacon primarily because of his deeply held Christian belief in man's fallen sinful nature.
Bacon’s “Enchanted Glass” – Emily Morales – December 2019 Excerpt: It was the rather low regard for the fallen human mind, besieged as it were by sin, that drove Francis Bacon, the “Father” of the Scientific Method, to formulate a new epistemology in his Great Instauration. In this brilliant man of faith’s view, the Adamic fall left an indelible mark on the human intellect, such that in its total depravity and persistent infirmity it could not be trusted to generate knowledge that was in any way free from bias, wrong presuppositions, or contradictions.,,, Recognizing then, the limitations of the human mind for revealing truth by mere logic and deductive reasoning, Bacon posited an altogether different means for knowledge acquisition: experimentation3—repeated experimentation—within the context of a scientific community (natural philosophers in his day). Bacon’s inductive methodology facilitated an explosion in knowledge of the natural world and accompanying technological advancement: https://salvomag.com/post/bacons-enchanted-glass 3. Harrison, P. (2007). The Fall of Man and the Foundations of Science. Cambridge University Press. The Fall of Man and the Foundations of Science - Peter Harrison - 2007 Description: Peter Harrison provides an account of the religious foundations of scientific knowledge. He shows how the approaches to the study of nature that emerged in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries were directly informed by theological discussions about the Fall of Man and the extent to which the mind and the senses had been damaged by that primeval event. Scientific methods, he suggests, were originally devised as techniques for ameliorating the cognitive damage wrought by human sin. At its inception, modern science was conceptualized as a means of recapturing the knowledge of nature that Adam had once possessed. Contrary to a widespread view that sees science emerging in conflict with religion, Harrison argues that theological considerations were of vital importance in the framing of the scientific method. https://www.amazon.com/Fall-Man-Foundations-Science/dp/0521117291 Peter Harrison is a former Andreas Idreos Professor of Science and Religion at the University of Oxford and is presently Research Professor and Director of the Institute for Advanced Studies in the Humanities at the University of Queensland. He was the 2011 Gifford Lecturer at the University of Edinburgh and holds a Senior Research Fellowship in the Ian Ramsey Centre at Oxford
Further notes
Bacon’s inductive methodology, which he introduced as a check and balance against humanity’s fallen sinful nature, was a radically different form of ‘bottom up’ reasoning that was completely different than the ‘top down’ deductive reasoning of the ancient Greeks which had preceded it. A form of ‘top-down’ reasoning in which people “pronounced on how the world should behave, with insufficient attention to how the world in fact did behave.” https://uncommondescent.com/logic-and-first-principles-of-right-reason/at-reasons-org-i-think-therefore-it-must-be-true-part-1-the-science-of-belief/#comment-769074
Verse
1 Thessalonians 5:21 but test all things. Hold fast to what is good.
bornagain77
January 28, 2023
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~ Why emergence is true **POOF** magic ~ 1.) If we know how the smaller or simpler entities give rise to the larger entity, then we can describe it perfectly well, thank you very much, without ever invoking this concept of “emergence”. That is why we talk about water forming from a certain number of molecules and through certain chemical bonds. We don’t talk of water “emerging” from hydrogen and oxygen. 2.) If we do know of a larger entity that cannot be explained by its parts (to date there is no known example of such), then we can’t really say, what the emergentist says, namely that the larger entity **nonetheless** emerged from the smaller entities. In fact, if we would ever be confronted with such an enigmatic thing, the logical conclusion would be, after it is established that the parts are not a sufficient cause, that the search for a sufficient cause must continue elsewhere and be directed away from the parts. Emergentism is the hypothesis that something that cannot be explained from its parts nonetheless follows(?) from its parts and therefore **MAGICALLY** emerges from its parts **POOF**.Origenes
January 28, 2023
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The secret to the Evolution debate is ecology. Nothing can enter an ecology that would destroy the ecology. This eliminates Darwinian evolution, punctuated equilibrium, emergence or any other possible mechanism except intelligence in the development of life. Adaptation or Darwinian processes exist and are active in change of life but only in relatively minor ways. That’s why what is seen is genetics and only that. There is no major accumulation of changes to a species. It would destroy the ecology. Intelligence is absolutely necessary for major change to preclude harm to the ecology. It’s as simple as that.jerry
January 28, 2023
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Whistler As StephenB would say “Reason informs the evidence not the other way around” Empirical knowledge is not the highest form of knowledge. This is the reason many atheists ( not all) hate philosophy, often times deny reason and logic all the while totally ignorant that their “empiricism” is itself a philosophical position. Go figure. Vividvividbleau
January 28, 2023
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PM1, Darwin knew enough to be very concerned about a process that if it worked would bring our thinking into deep discredit. That has not changed, and the reality is still that a computational substrate is inherently non rational, as say Haldane already realised. The resort to poof magic emergence etc is little more than a back handed admission of no good answer. We are seeing more and more reason to question what is being pushed in the name of science, education and progress by those who have entrenched themselves in key institutions. Reformation is needed but it will not come from within. KFkairosfocus
January 28, 2023
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