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Re, Seversky: “a lot of this reads like complaining because science isn’t coming up with observations and theories that you like . . . “

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Sometimes, an issue comes to a head, and there is then need to deal with it. The headline inadvertently shows that we are at such a juncture and the post yesterday on time to take the lead is therefore timely. For, the underlying problem at work on ID is that there is an often implicit but sometimes quite explicit ideologically loaded redefinition of science at work.

Accordingly, I think it appropriate to headline my response to Seversky, including the onward accusation of religious bias:

KF, 28 (in reply to 21): >>Strawman soaked in ad hominems and set alight to cloud, confuse, poison and polarise the issues:

a lot of this reads like complaining because science isn’t coming up with observations and theories that you like or, more specifically, that are consonant with your religious presuppositions.

What part of:

Science seeks to accurately observe, describe, explain, predict and enable us to act effectively in our world. So truth-seeking is critical to science. Therefore we have to respect findings of related disciplines that support that work. Therefore, we must anchor on empirical observations and recognise that theories are inferences to the best current explanation and are inherently provisional. They remain [live] theories so long as it is credible that they may be substantially true and no further. They are inherently provisional; subject to empirical testing and the requirement of well-tested empirical reliability.

This holds for experimental sciences. It holds doubly for observational sciences and doubly again for scientific investigations of origins, where that deep past cannot itself be observed; we see traces and try to reconstruct and date past circumstances back to origins. All of this successively degrades strength of epistemic stance of relevant theories.

All of this, the a priori materialist activists and their enablers will not acknowledge and have repeatedly tried to turn into accusations of stealth Creationism, “religion” inserting itself into the temple of science and the like.

— is so hard to understand?

Or, do I need to point to the exchanges in Kansas c 2001 – 2007:

2001 radical re-Definition imposed by evolutionary materialism activists: “Science is the human activity of seeking natural explanations of the world around us.”

2005 correction to that tendentious re-Definition: “Science is a systematic method of continuing investigation, that uses observation, hypothesis testing, measurement, experimentation, logical argument and theory building, to lead to more adequate explanations of natural phenomena.”

2007 re-imposition after a dirty agit-prop operation and threats from NSTA and NAS to hold the children of the state hostage: “Science is a human activity of systematically seeking natural explanations for what we observe in the world around us.”

Of course, “natural explanations” is patently a code for naturalistic explanations. Imposing an ideological a priori as Lewontin indicated, is grand question-begging, indoctrination and disregard for duty to seek, present and stand by truth. The accurate description of reality.

Further, this was backed up by outright abuse of influence to hold families, children and their education hostage. Here is an excerpt from the NAS-NSTA letter that makes a very ugly downright threat that the complicit, enabling media did not expose:

. . . the members of the Kansas State Board of Education who produced Draft 2-d of the KSES have deleted text defining science as a search for natural explanations of observable phenomena, blurring the line between scientific and other ways of understanding. Emphasizing controversy in the theory of evolution — when in fact all modern theories of science are continually tested and verified — and distorting the definition of science are inconsistent with our Standards and a disservice to the students of Kansas. Regretfully, many of the statements made in the KSES related to the nature of science and evolution also violate the document’s mission and vision. Kansas students will not be well-prepared for the rigors of higher education or the demands of an increasingly complex and technologically-driven world if their science education is based on these standards. Instead, they will put the students of Kansas at a competitive disadvantage as they take their place in the world.

Utter moral and intellectual bankruptcy expressed in outright nihilistic, will to power might and manipulation make ‘truth,’ ‘right,’ ‘knowledge,’ ‘history,’ ‘education’ and more.

This was and remains utterly indefensible.

Just by contrast, let me clip some high quality college-level dictionaries from the period before this radical redefinition was imposed by domineering and disregard for truth:

science: a branch of knowledge conducted on objective principles involving the systematized observation of and experiment with phenomena, esp. concerned with the material and functions of the physical universe. [Concise Oxford, 1990]

scientific method: principles and procedures for the systematic pursuit of knowledge [”the body of truth, information and principles acquired by mankind”] involving the recognition and formulation of a problem, the collection of data through observation and experiment, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses. [Webster’s 7th Collegiate, 1965]

The first battle for leadership in science is to restore sanity to the basic understanding of what science is and does.

Something is DEMONSTRABLY rotten in the state of science and science education and it must first be faced if we are to get anywhere sensible.

Going further, with an historically-, epistemologically- and inductive logic limitations- sound understanding of science in hand, we can then look at experimental vs observational vs origins sciences, facts of observation vs theoretical explanations, degrees of warrant and responsible balance on claims such as “science is the only begetter of truth.”

Next, we can then squarely face the nigh on 70 year old finding that there is ALPHABETIC, CODED TEXT in the heart of the cell. Associated with, transcribing, editing, translation machinery and regulatory networks. Sophisticated digital information and communication systems at molecular scale and obviously tracing to origin of the living cell. Where the first cells credibly had 100 – 1,000 kbits of information in such codes, just to code the proteins and RNA they used.

It is not too difficult to show that 100 kbits implies a configuration space of ~ 9.99 *10^30,102 possibilities, per n bits implies 2^n possibilities. The search challenge for such with an observed cosmos of ~ 10^80 atoms with ~ 10^-14 chemical level interactions per second [fast for organic chem] on a time span ~ 10^17 s since the singularity is hopelessly too small a scope of generously possible search to space. It is not credible that any blind chance and mechanical necessity process arrived at such functionally specific complex organisation and associated information [FSCO/I] on the gamut of available search resources.

The only empirically well warranted causal explanation for such FSCO/I — and yes I am applying Newton’s vera causa principle — is intelligently directed configuration. On trillions of known cases.

Design sits at the table for explaining the FSCO/I in life as of right, from OOL up.

The imposed a priori evolutionary materialism lockout is bankrupt and dead.

Next, scroll up and glance at Barnes’ chart on just two of the many finely tuned factors: strong nuke force and fine structure constant. Holding nuclei together but with room for nucleosynthesis and electromagnetic [thus also weak] interactions. Notice the window of possibilities? And where our observed cosmos is?

Now, on the contingent option, fine tuning is blatant.

On the oh there is a covering superlaw option, we have simply exported the fine tuning up one level, as in where did such a locking law come from.

Where, you can see the multiverse appeal dilemma: keep your lab coat and recognise that appeal to multiverse is weak as scientific speculation [when we lack observation and perhaps observability . . . ] or go to multiverse and recognise you left the lab coat on the peg by the door and have to deal with worldview level comparative difficulties.

On either prong, we face John Leslie’s challenge:

“One striking thing about the fine tuning is that a force strength or a particle mass often appears to require accurate tuning for several reasons at once. Look at electromagnetism. Electromagnetism seems to require tuning for there to be any clear-cut distinction between matter and radiation; for stars to burn neither too fast nor too slowly for life’s requirements; for protons to be stable; for complex chemistry to be possible; for chemical changes not to be extremely sluggish; and for carbon synthesis inside stars (carbon being quite probably crucial to life). Universes all obeying the same fundamental laws could still differ in the strengths of their physical forces, as was explained earlier, and random variations in electromagnetism from universe to universe might then ensure that it took on any particular strength sooner or later. Yet how could they possibly account for the fact that the same one strength satisfied many potentially conflicting requirements, each of them a requirement for impressively accurate tuning?” [Our Place in the Cosmos, The Royal Institute of Philosophy, 1998 (courtesy Wayback Machine).]

AND:

“. . . the need for such explanations does not depend on any estimate of how many universes would be observer-permitting, out of the entire field of possible universes. Claiming that our universe is ‘fine tuned for observers’, we base our claim on how life’s evolution would apparently have been rendered utterly impossible by comparatively minor alterations in physical force strengths, elementary particle masses and so forth. There is no need for us to ask whether very great alterations in these affairs would have rendered it fully possible once more, let alone whether physical worlds conforming to very different laws could have been observer-permitting without being in any way fine tuned. Here it can be useful to think of a fly on a wall, surrounded by an empty region. A bullet hits the fly Two explanations suggest themselves. Perhaps many bullets are hitting the wall or perhaps a marksman fired the bullet. There is no need to ask whether distant areas of the wall, or other quite different walls, are covered with flies so that more or less any bullet striking there would have hit one. The important point is that the local area contains just the one fly.”

Cosmological fine tuning is here to stay, and it puts design squarely on the table as candidate to beat. For origin of our observed cosmos. The only actually scientifically observed one.>>

My onward invitation was: “Now, lead, follow or kindly stand aside.”

That’s where we now are. END

Comments
BA77 @33, The list of coauthors is mostly in alphabetical order by last names. I counted 115 coauthors. The first 5 names don't seem in alphabetical order. The first and the last (#115) coauthors have email addresses provided. Bob O'H has the institutions # 1 and 74 following his name. Probably he does work associated with those institutions in Germany and Norway respectively? Bob's last name seems Irish. Perhaps his ancestors were from Ireland? One of my favorite math professors at Oxford is also from Ireland. The last name in the list is not in alphabetical order probably because it's the name of an important scientist associated with the paper.Dionisio
January 26, 2018
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Thank you for posting the link, Bob O'H. I'm going read through it and then let you know what I think about it. ;) Andrewasauber
January 26, 2018
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I hold that having a name anywhere on that list is not a point of honor, as some here seem to think it is, but is actually a point of shame. On my measure, the more responsible you were for that paper, the greater your shame should be. i.e. It is basically propaganda. Who in their right mind did not already intuitively know the conclusion of the paper? It's main purpose is obviously, in fact, more for propaganda than for science.bornagain77
January 26, 2018
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BA77 @33, Good points. Also interesting videos. Thanks. BTW, the numbers next to the names of the coauthors are references to the institutions they are associated with. Most positions within the list may not be precisely significant regarding importance.Dionisio
January 26, 2018
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gpuccio, I completely agree with your entire commentary @32. Thanks.Dionisio
January 26, 2018
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So Bob O Hara is the 73rd or 74rth co-author to a paper that, basically, finds humans presence on the earth to be fairly 'restrictive' to animal movements. ,,, Perhaps, given Bob's atheistic presupposition, more forced abortions, such as they have in China, would be the solution for him? Or if things get too bad with humans restricting animal movement, perhaps forced reductions in human populations could be achieved via massive concentration camps? Unfortunately for Bob, and other atheists who find humanity to be 'detrimental', and have even found humans to be 'chemical scum' on the earth, humanity is now found to have far more significance in this universe and on this earth than was ever presupposed in his atheistic worldview:
Humanity – Chemical Scum or Made in the Image of God? – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElBWAwjPzyM
Verse:
Isaiah 45:12 I am the one who made the earth and created people to live on it. With my hands I stretched out the heavens. All the stars are at my command.
P.S, It is highly ironic that Bob would complain about a lack of science on UD when Darwinian evolution itself has turned out to be the very antithesis of sound science:
Darwinian Evolution: A Pseudoscience based on Unrestrained Imagination and Bad Liberal Theology - video https://youtu.be/KeDi6gUMQJQ
bornagain77
January 26, 2018
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Dionisio: The scientific qualifications of Bob O'H are in no way under discussion. That's why his comments are always appreciated (at least by me). Of course, he cannot make Arthur Hunt's arguments, because he probably knows about them as much as we do: that is almost nothing. But he could certainly make his own arguments. After all, my OPs are not about physics: like him, I am not a physicist! :) Seriously, I have nothing against Bob O'H, and of course he is perfectly free to take part in the discussions about my OPs, or not, like anyone else. But, in general, it's a little frustrating (yes, everyone has his specific frustrations, it seems) to see that intelligent and competent discussants from the other side complain about some lack of scientific discussions here (and I could partially agree about that) and then almost never take part in the biological discussions (and I believe we have had a few interesting ones), while they are always ready to intervene generously in the many discussions about religion, morals, politics, and so on (I have nothing against those discussions, but technically they are not strictly scientific, that's all). In general, it's a strange behaviour! :)gpuccio
January 26, 2018
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gpuccio, You've anticipated my point! :) That's what I wanted to do: let Bob O'H know that perhaps he would enjoy engaging in the interesting scientific discussion that the distinguished professor Arthur Hunt started with you last December 21, but has not come back since last December 26, exactly a month ago. Perhaps Bob O'H could take over and continue that interesting discussion? That would be very appreciated. BTW, this website UD should be honored to count a scientist like Bob O'H among its frequent [objecting] commenters. As we can see @29, Bob O'H has coauthored a recent paper in a very prestigious peer-reviewed journal.Dionisio
January 26, 2018
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Bob O'H: "My comment was expressing a frustration about a lack of science on these pages." Well, I have tried to do my part about that. With very scarce participation from the other side, includind maybe you. The most recent example: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-spliceosome-a-molecular-machine-that-defies-any-non-design-explanation/#comment-650102 Your comments would be highly appreciated. Who knows, maybe you could feel less frustrated, after all... :)gpuccio
January 26, 2018
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Moving in the Anthropocene: Global reductions in terrestrial mammalian movements Science 26 Jan 2018: Vol. 359, Issue 6374, pp. 466-469 DOI: 10.1126/science.aam9712 Marlee A. Tucker1,2,*, Katrin Böhning-Gaese1,2, William F. Fagan3,4, John M. Fryxell5, Bram Van Moorter6, Susan C. Alberts7, Abdullahi H. Ali8, Andrew M. Allen9,10, Nina Attias11, Tal Avgar12, Hattie Bartlam-Brooks13, Buuveibaatar Bayarbaatar14, Jerrold L. Belant15, Alessandra Bertassoni16, Dean Beyer17, Laura Bidner18, Floris M. van Beest19, Stephen Blake20,21, Niels Blaum22, Chloe Bracis1,2, Danielle Brown23, P. J. Nico de Bruyn24, Francesca Cagnacci25,26, Justin M. Calabrese3,27, Constança Camilo-Alves28,29, Simon Chamaillé-Jammes30, Andre Chiaradia31,32, Sarah C. Davidson33,20, Todd Dennis34, Stephen DeStefano35, Duane Diefenbach36, Iain Douglas-Hamilton37,38, Julian Fennessy39, Claudia Fichtel40, Wolfgang Fiedler20, Christina Fischer41, Ilya Fischhoff42, Christen H. Fleming3,27, Adam T. Ford43, Susanne A. Fritz1,2, Benedikt Gehr44, Jacob R. Goheen45, Eliezer Gurarie3,46, Mark Hebblewhite47, Marco Heurich48,49, A. J. Mark Hewison50, Christian Hof1, Edward Hurme3, Lynne A. Isbell18,51, René Janssen52, Florian Jeltsch22, Petra Kaczensky6,53, Adam Kane54, Peter M. Kappeler40, Matthew Kauffman55, Roland Kays56,57, Duncan Kimuyu58, Flavia Koch40,59, Bart Kranstauber44, Scott LaPoint20,60, Peter Leimgruber27, John D. C. Linnell6, Pascual López-López61, A. Catherine Markham62, Jenny Mattisson6, Emilia Patricia Medici63,64, Ugo Mellone65, Evelyn Merrill12, Guilherme de Miranda Mourão66, Ronaldo G. Morato67, Nicolas Morellet50, Thomas A. Morrison68, Samuel L. Díaz-Muñoz69,70, Atle Mysterud71, Dejid Nandintsetseg1,2, Ran Nathan72, Aidin Niamir1, John Odden73, Robert B. O’Hara1,74, Luiz Gustavo R. Oliveira-Santos75, Kirk A. Olson14, Bruce D. Patterson76, Rogerio Cunha de Paula67, Luca Pedrotti77, Björn Reineking78,79, Martin Rimmler80, Tracey L. Rogers81, Christer Moe Rolandsen6, Christopher S. Rosenberry82, Daniel I. Rubenstein83, Kamran Safi20,84, Sonia Saïd85, Nir Sapir86, Hall Sawyer87, Niels Martin Schmidt19,88, Nuria Selva89, Agnieszka Sergiel89, Enkhtuvshin Shiilegdamba14, João Paulo Silva90,91,92, Navinder Singh9, Erling J. Solberg6, Orr Spiegel93, Olav Strand6, Siva Sundaresan94, Wiebke Ullmann22, Ulrich Voigt95, Jake Wall37, David Wattles35, Martin Wikelski20,84, Christopher C. Wilmers96, John W. Wilson97, George Wittemyer37,98, Filip Zi?ba99, Tomasz Zwijacz-Kozica99, Thomas Mueller1,2,27,* 1Senckenberg Biodiversity and Climate Research Centre, Senckenberg Gesellschaft für Naturforschung, 60325 Frankfurt (Main), Germany. 2Department of Biological Sciences, Goethe University, 60438 Frankfurt (Main), Germany. 3Department of Biology, University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742, USA. 4SESYNC, University of Maryland, Annapolis, MD 21401, USA. 5Department of Integrative Biology, University of Guelph, Guelph, Ontario N1G 2W1, Canada. 6Norwegian Institute for Nature Research, P.O. Box 5685 Torgard, NO-7485 Trondheim, Norway. 7Departments of Biology and Evolutionary Anthropology, Duke University, Durham, NC 27708, USA. 8Hirola Conservation Programme, Garissa, Kenya. 9Department of Wildlife, Fish and Environmental Studies, Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences, Umeå 90183, Sweden. 10Institute for Water and Wetland Research, Department of Animal Ecology and Physiology, Radboud University, 6500GL Nijmegen, Netherlands. 11Ecology and Conservation Graduate Program, Federal University of Mato Grosso do Sul, Campo Grande, MS, Brazil. 12Department of Biological Sciences, University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. 13Structure and Motion Laboratory, Royal Veterinary College, University of London, London NW1 0TU, UK. 14Wildlife Conservation Society, Mongolia Program, Ulaanbaatar, Mongolia. 15Carnivore Ecology Laboratory, Forest and Wildlife Research Center, Mississippi State University, Box 9690, Mississippi State, MS, USA. 16Animal Biology Postgraduate Program, São Paulo State University, São José do Rio Preto, SP 15054-000, Brazil. 17Michigan Department of Natural Resources, 1990 U.S. 41 South, Marquette, MI 49855, USA. 18Department of Anthropology, University of California, Davis, CA 95616, USA. 19Department of Bioscience, Aarhus University, 4000 Roskilde, Denmark. 20Max Planck Institute for Ornithology, Vogelwarte Radolfzell, D-78315 Radolfzell, Germany. 21Wildlife Conservation Society, Bronx, NY 10460, USA. 22University of Potsdam, Plant Ecology and Nature Conservation, 14476 Potsdam, Germany. 23Department of Biology, Middle Tennessee State University, Murfreesboro, TN 37132, USA. 24Mammal Research Institute, Department of Zoology and Entomology, University of Pretoria, Hatfield 0028, Gauteng, South Africa. 25Department of Biodiversity and Molecular Ecology, Research and Innovation Centre, Fondazione Edmund Mach, 38010 San Michele all’Adige (TN), Italy. 26Department of Organismic and Evolutionary Biology, Harvard University, Cambridge, MA 02138, USA. 27Smithsonian Conservation Biology Institute, National Zoological Park, Front Royal, VA, USA. 28Departamento de Fitotecnia, Universidade de Évora, Pólo da Mitra, 7002-554 Évora, Portugal. 29ICAAM–Institute of Mediterranean Agricultural and Environmental Sciences, University of Évora, Évora, Portugal. 30Centre d’Ecologie Fonctionnelle et Evolutive UMR 5175, CNRS–Université de Montpellier–Université Paul-Valéry Montpellier–EPHE, 34293 Montpellier Cedex 5, France. 31Phillip Island Nature Parks, Victoria, Australia. 32School of Biological Sciences, Monash University, Melbourne, Australia. 33Department of Civil, Environmental and Geodetic Engineering, Ohio State University, Columbus, OH 43210, USA. 34Department of Biology, Fiji National University, P.O. Box 5529, Natabua, Lautoka, Fiji Islands. 35U.S. Geological Survey, Massachusetts Cooperative Fish and Wildlife Research Unit, University of Massachusetts, Amherst, MA 01003, USA. 36U.S. Geological Survey, Pennsylvania Cooperative Fish and Wildlife Research Unit, Pennsylvania State University, University Park, PA 16802, USA. 37Save the Elephants, P.O. Box 54667, Nairobi 00200, Kenya. 38Department of Zoology, University of Oxford, Oxford OX1 3PS, UK. 39Giraffe Conservation Foundation, P.O. Box 86099, Eros, Namibia. 40German Primate Center, Behavioral Ecology and Sociobiology Unit, 37077 Göttingen, Germany. 41Restoration Ecology, Department of Ecology and Ecosystem Management, Technische Universität München, 85354 Freising, Germany. 42Cary Institute of Ecosystem Studies, Millbrook, NY 12545, USA. 43Irving K. Barber School of Arts and Sciences, Unit 2: Biology, University of British Columbia, Okanagan Campus, Kelowna, BC V1V 1V7, Canada. 44Department of Evolutionary Biology and Environmental Studies, University of Zurich, 8057 Zurich, Switzerland. 45Department of Zoology and Physiology, University of Wyoming, Laramie, WY 82071, USA. 46School of Environmental and Forest Sciences, University of Washington, Seattle, WA 98195, USA. 47Wildlife Biology Program, Department of Ecosystem and Conservation Sciences, College of Forestry and Conservation, University of Montana, Missoula, MT 59812, USA. 48Bavarian Forest National Park, Department of Conservation and Research, 94481 Grafenau, Germany. 49Chair of Wildlife Ecology and Management, Albert Ludwigs University of Freiburg, 79106 Freiburg, Germany. 50CEFS, Université de Toulouse, INRA, Castanet Tolosan, France. 51Animal Behavior Graduate Group, University of California, Davis, CA 95616, USA. 52Bionet Natuuronderzoek, 6171EL Stein, Netherlands. 53Research Institute of Wildlife Ecology, University of Veterinary Medicine Vienna, A-1160 Vienna, Austria. 54School of Biological, Earth and Environmental Sciences, University College Cork, Cork, Ireland. 55U.S. Geological Survey, Wyoming Cooperative Fish and Wildlife Research Unit, Department of Zoology and Physiology, University of Wyoming, Laramie, WY, USA. 56North Carolina Museum of Natural Sciences, Raleigh, NC 27601, USA. 57Department of Forestry and Environmental Resources, North Carolina State University, Raleigh, NC 27695, USA. 58Department of Natural Resource Management, Karatina University, P.O. Box 1957-10101, Karatina, Kenya. 59Department of Psychology, University of Lethbridge, Lethbridge, Alberta T1K 3M4, Canada. 60Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory, Columbia University, Palisades, NY 10964, USA. 61Cavanilles Institute of Biodiversity and Evolutionary Biology, Terrestrial Vertebrates Group, University of Valencia, E-46980 Paterna, Valencia, Spain. 62Department of Anthropology, Stony Brook University, Stony Brook, NY 11794, USA. 63International Union for Conservation of Nature (IUCN) Species Survival Commission (SSC) Tapir Specialist Group (TSG), Rua Licuala, 622, Damha 1, Campo Grande, CEP: 79046-150, Mato Grosso do Sul, Brazil. 64IPÊ (Instituto de Pesquisas Ecológicas; Institute for Ecological Research), Caixa Postal 47, Nazaré Paulista, CEP: 12960-000, São Paulo, Brazil. 65Vertebrates Zoology Research Group, Departamento de Ciencias Ambientales y Recursos Naturales, University of Alicante, Alicante, Spain. 66Embrapa Pantanal, Corumbá, MS 79320-900, Brazil. 67National Research Center for Carnivores Conservation, Chico Mendes Institute for the Conservation of Biodiversity, Atibaia-SP 12952-011, Brazil. 68Institute of Biodiversity, Animal Health and Comparative Medicine, University of Glasgow, Glasgow, UK. 69Center for Genomics and Systems Biology, Department of Biology, New York University, New York, NY 10003, USA. 70Department of Microbiology and Molecular Genetics, University of California, Davis, CA 95616, USA. 71Centre for Ecological and Evolutionary Synthesis, Department of Biosciences, University of Oslo, Blindern, NO-0316 Oslo, Norway. 72Movement Ecology Laboratory, Department of Ecology, Evolution and Behavior, Alexander Silberman Institute of Life Sciences, Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Jerusalem 91904, Israel. 73Norwegian Institute for Nature Research, NO-0349 Oslo, Norway. 74Department of Mathematical Sciences and Centre for Biodiversity Dynamics, Norwegian University of Science and Technology (NTNU), 7491 Trondheim, Norway. 75Department of Ecology, Federal University of Mato Grosso do Sul, Campo Grande, MS 79070-900, Brazil. 76Integrative Research Center, Field Museum of Natural History, Chicago, IL 60605, USA. 77Consorzio Parco Nazionale dello Stelvio, Bormio (Sondrio), Italy. 78Univ. Grenoble Alpes, Irstea, UR LESSEM, BP 76, 38402 St-Martin-d’Hères, France. 79University of Bayreuth, BayCEER, 95447 Bayreuth, Germany. 80Nationalpark Schwarzwald, 77889 Seebach, Germany. 81Evolution and Ecology Research Centre and School of Biological, Earth and Environmental Sciences, University of New South Wales, Sydney, NSW 2052, Australia. 82Pennsylvania Game Commission, Harrisburg, PA 17110, USA. 83Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology, Princeton University, Princeton, NJ 08544, USA. 84Department of Biology, University of Konstanz, 78467 Konstanz, Germany. 85Directorate of Studies and Expertise (DRE), Office National de la Chasse et de la Faune Sauvage, Montfort, 01330 Birieux, France. 86Department of Evolutionary and Environmental Biology, University of Haifa, 3498838 Haifa, Israel. 87Western Ecosystems Technology Inc., Laramie, WY 82070, USA. 88Arctic Research Centre, Aarhus University, 8000 Aarhus C, Denmark. 89Institute of Nature Conservation Polish Academy of Sciences, 31-120 Krakow, Poland. 90REN Biodiversity Chair, CIBIO/InBIO Associate Laboratory, Universidade do Porto, Campus Agrário de Vairão, 4485-661 Vairão, Portugal. 91Centre for Applied Ecology “Prof. Baeta Neves”/InBIO Associate Laboratory, Instituto Superior de Agronomia, Universidade de Lisboa, Tapada da Ajuda, 1349-017 Lisbon, Portugal. 92Centre for Ecology, Evolution and Environmental Changes, Faculdade de Ciências da Universidade de Lisboa, Campo Grande, 1749-016 Lisbon, Portugal. 93Department of Environmental Science and Policy, University of California, Davis, CA, USA. 94Jackson Hole Conservation Alliance, Jackson, WY 83001, USA. 95Institute for Terrestrial and Aquatic Wildlife Research, University of Veterinary Medicine Hannover-Foundation, 30173 Hannover, Germany. 96Center for Integrated Spatial Research, Environmental Studies Department, University of California, Santa Cruz, CA 95060, USA. 97Department of Zoology and Entomology, University of Pretoria, Hatfield 0028, South Africa. 98Department of Fish, Wildlife and Conservation Biology, Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO 80523, USA. 99Tatra National Park, 34-500 Zakopane, Poland. ?*Corresponding author. Email: tucker.marlee@gmail.com (M.A.T.); thomas.mueller@senckenberg.de (T.M.) Science 26 Jan 2018: Vol. 359, Issue 6374, pp. 466-469 DOI: 10.1126/science.aam9712Dionisio
January 26, 2018
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Bob O’H @26, That’s an interesting paper you coauthored. Thanks for sharing it here.Dionisio
January 26, 2018
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kf @ 17 - if the discussion was about physics, then I probably decided that I wasn't knowledgeable enough to comment. I'm not a physicist.Bob O'H
January 26, 2018
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Andrew @ 15 - here. I'm part of the large et al. list. I didn't post the link earlier because I didn't have it. Thank you for your patience.Bob O'H
January 25, 2018
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harry @ 11
Seversky, Using the wildest stretches of your thoroughly indoctrinated imagination, do you find anything even slightly suspicious about the following: Famous atheist Carl “billions and billions” Sagan assured us that “The cosmos is all that ever was, and all that ever will be.” He explained to us that if we ever received a transmission from deep space containing cleverly arranged prime numbers we could be certain that the message was intelligently designed.
Nope, why should I? We've never observed a natural phenomenon tapping out the first hundred in the sequence of prime numbers or any reason to think that mathematics are anything other than the creation of intelligent agents such as ourselves.
Darwin couldn’t have known this, but it turns out that the physical dimension of life consists of digital information-based nanotechnology the functional complexity of which is light years beyond anything modern science knows how to build from scratch.
I remember reading that in the early days of brain research the organ was sometimes described in terms of telephone exchanges. The brain isn't a telephone exchange but that was the most advanced technology available at that time which could be used to try and construct a model of the organ. Today we use information technology, computers and cybernetics because they are the most advanced technologies available. But they are still modeling "languages" or analogies. They still don't mean that we were designed by alien cyberneticists any more than we were designed by alien telephone engineers.
Atheism assures us that this information-based, beyond-our-own nanotechnology came about mindlessly and accidentally. But a mere clever arrangement of prime numbers is proof of intelligent design. Stretch your imagination to its limits and ask yourself “Could this possibly be a case of atheists believing what they desperately want to believe instead of letting the evidence guide them?”
You still don't seem to get it. As an a/mat I have absolutely no problem with the possibility that some ancient alien intelligence had a hand in the creation or seeding or development of life on Earth. I think that's probably true of most materialists. It would be incredibly exciting to find compelling evidence - such as a deeply-buried black obelisk that beams a signal into space when exposed to sunlight - that something like that had happened. Unfortunately, we don't have anything like that yet so the question is still open.Seversky
January 25, 2018
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Sev You mean science should be handed over to your priesthood instead? Ponder that question.tribune7
January 25, 2018
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tribune7 @ 4
The definitions presented as authoritative are an attempt to limit investigation and make inquiry follow a dogma rather than imagination. They are an attempt to establish a priesthood. They are anti-science in the classic understanding of the word.
You mean science should be handed over to your priesthood instead?
The thing to realize is that just because one claims authority doesn’t mean we have to accept it. As much as they wish to they can’t stop the graffito being scrawled on their wall or prevent the metaphorical finger being waved at them in the marketplace.
Funny, I was going to say something like that about religions.Seversky
January 25, 2018
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What part of:
Science seeks to accurately observe, describe, explain, predict and enable us to act effectively in our world. [...] All of this, the a priori materialist activists and their enablers will not acknowledge and have repeatedly tried to turn into accusations of stealth Creationism, “religion” inserting itself into the temple of science and the like.
I don't know of any materialist who would quarrel with science as broadly defined above although there are some, myself included, who reject the false distinction between so-called observational and historical sciences. As for religion inserting itself "into the temple of science and the like" I remind you of the 2007 survey of high school science teachers which found that 13% of them were openly teaching creationism in the science classroom in brazen defiance of the prescribed curricula. That in itself provides more than sufficient warrant for serious concern.
Of course, “natural explanations” is patently a code for naturalistic explanations. Imposing an ideological a priori as Lewontin indicated, is grand question-begging, indoctrination and disregard for duty to seek, present and stand by truth. The accurate description of reality.
If either you or Lewontin can come up with some facet of reality that is not capable of natural or naturalistic explanation then feel free to present it.
Utter moral and intellectual bankruptcy expressed in outright nihilistic, will to power might and manipulation make ‘truth,’ ‘right,’ ‘knowledge,’ ‘history,’ ‘education’ and more. This was and remains utterly indefensible.
I have no idea how you get all that from a letter making perfectly justifiable criticisms of the board's attempts to water down the KSES which had a clear religious purpose.
The first battle for leadership in science is to restore sanity to the basic understanding of what science is and does.
I think we already have a pretty good basic understanding already of what science is and how it is done. All we need to do is to protect it from the various groups in society that vie for political power and social influence and who would try to break it if it doesn't toe their various religious or political lines
Something is DEMONSTRABLY rotten in the state of science and science education and it must first be faced if we are to get anywhere sensible.
Science, as human enterprise, suffers from the failings of the people who practice it just like any other. Is it any more "rotten" than religion or politics? I would say not and it's unquestionably more productive than any of the alternatives.
It is not too difficult to show that 100 kbits implies a configuration space of ~ 9.99 *10^30,102 possibilities, per n bits implies 2^n possibilities. The search challenge for such with an observed cosmos of ~ 10^80 atoms with ~ 10^-14 chemical level interactions per second [fast for organic chem] on a time span ~ 10^17 s since the singularity is hopelessly too small a scope of generously possible search to space.
Yes, a "tornado in a junkyard" by any other name. The chance of highly complex entities springing into existence fully-formed is so remote as to be next to impossible. We get it. So it's just as well that evolution or OoL researchers are not suggesting that.
Design sits at the table for explaining the FSCO/I in life as of right, from OOL up.
Maybe, but it needs to bring rather more than just the appearance of design and questionable probabilities if it is to keep a place at the table.
The imposed a priori evolutionary materialism lockout is bankrupt and dead
There's no lockout only a failure to justify letting it in.
Now, on the contingent option, fine tuning is blatant.
So is Douglas Adams's puddle.Seversky
January 25, 2018
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F/N: ENV on the 2005 situation -- note what NYT did:
Kansas Definition of Science Consistent With All Other States Contrary to Media Claims Robert L. Crowther, II | @RLCrowther November 15, 2005, 1:40 PM The New York Times report that Kansas state has redefined science is in fact false and the reporting misleads the public in regards to how science is defined by most states across the country. In a Science Times article echoing other mainstream media’s misreports, the New York Times today reports that Kansas has “redefined science,” stating: In the course of revising the state’s science standards to include criticism of evolution, the board promulgated a new definition of science itself. This is not accurate, the state did not adopt a “new definition of science.” In fact, the standard now in place in Kansas realigns the state with all other states in the nation that define science in their standards. Kansas reinstated a traditional definition of science which reads: “Science is a systematic method of continuing investigation that uses observation, hypothesis testing, measurement, experimentation, logical argument and theory-building to lead to more adequate explanations of natural phenomena.” This is nearly identical to the definition of science adhered to in 40 states across the country (nine states do not define science at all). Kansas is the only state that did not have a traditional definition of science. In May of this year Discovery Institute issued a study examining the definitions of science used by all states in the nation which found that: The definition of science … is fully consistent with definitions used by all other states in the U.S. By contrast, the definition of science currently used in the Kansas standards … is idiosyncratic and out of step with current educational practice. The Discovery Institute study was conducted by biologist, Dr. Jonathan Wells, a senior fellow with the Institute’s Center for Science & Culture, and later sent to the Kansas State Board of Education. The complete text of the study is published below so that readers can see for themselves what the definitions of science are like in all states. Definitions of Science in State Standards Research by Jonathan Wells, Ph.D Summary The definition of science proposed in the Minority Report [note: the minority report is what the Kansas state board of education adopted as its new science standards] is fully consistent with definitions used by all other states in the U.S. By contrast, the definition of science currently used in the Kansas standards and defended by the Majority is idiosyncratic and out of step with current educational practice. Reviewers Dennison and Miller claim that the Minority Report proposes a radical re-definition of science. Yet a comprehensive survey of state science standards (attached below) shows that all other states in the union that define science in their standards define it in a way similar to the Minority. Dennison and Miller, along with reviewers Heppert and Theobald, also claim that the revised definition would open the door to supernatural explanations in science. This is simply false: No one is proposing that supernatural explanations should be included in science. The definition of science in the current Kansas science standards is unlike any other in the U.S. By defining science first and foremost as “seeking natural explanations,” the current standards subtly shift the emphasis in science education from the investigative process to the end result. This shift is out of step with modern science education, which gives priority to the activity of formulating and testing hypotheses. The Minority’s definition is consistent with science as an open-ended inquiry that follows the evidence wherever it leads. The Majority’s definition, by contrast, shortcircuits this process of inquiry and encourages premature answers to scientific questions — the sort of “just-so stories” criticized by scientists such as Stephen Jay Gould. The only other state in the U.S. that explicitly limits science to naturalistic explanations is Massachusetts. In the Massachusetts science standards, however, this limitation comes at the end of a detailed description of the scientific enterprise that begins by defining science more generally as “attempts to give good accounts of the patterns in nature.” Only Kansas currently defines science primarily as “seeking natural explanations.” As the comprehensive survey attached below shows, the Minority’s proposed revision would bring the Kansas science standards back into the mainstream of the U.S. science education community. A Comprehensive Survey of State Science Standards Of the fifty states, nine include no definition of science or explicit description of scientific inquiry in standards accessible through the Internet. The standards of forty states include a definition of science or explicit description of scientific inquiry that is consistent with the one proposed in the Minority Report. Only Kansas defines science as “seeking natural explanations.” Here is a sampler of science definitions used by other states: Arizona: “Science is a process of gathering and evaluating information, looking for patterns, and then devising and testing possible explanations.” Arkansas: “Science is a way of knowing that is characterized by empirical criteria, logical argument, and skeptical review.” Connecticut: “Scientific inquiry is a thoughtful and coordinated attempt to search out, describe, explain and predict natural phenomena.” Idaho: “Science is a human endeavor that seeks to understand the universe by observation, experimentation, and rational interpretation of observations.” Louisiana: “Science is a way of thinking and a system of knowledge that uses reason, observation, experimentation, and imagination.” Montana: “Science is an inquiry process used to investigate natural phenomena, resulting in the formation of theories verified by direct observations.” [CONTINUES]
KFkairosfocus
January 25, 2018
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BO’H may well have a paper in Science. KF
KF, He prolly does. Why is it a chore for him to post a link to some information about it? I mean, apparently he has all the time in the world to post drive-by comments... why can't one have a link in it? Andrewasauber
January 25, 2018
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Bob, I’m not going to get into a game of “definitional gerrymandering”, That's fine but that is really the big issue. Ask why would ID need a special site? What happens when ID proponents defend their views on other science-based sites? Is there polite if vigorous disagreement or are they mocked and driven away? How about in an academic environment where one's job/tenure may be on the line? Limiting natural science to discussions of natural mechanisms is fine, but the minute you start holding natural science as the the determining authority for all truth and morality and public policy -- I'm not accusing you of this, but obviously this happens -- you stop practicing natural science.tribune7
January 25, 2018
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AS. BO'H may well have a paper in Science. KFkairosfocus
January 25, 2018
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BO'H: Pardon but with all due respects, where were you when we just had several threads on technical matters up to and including the issue of an extension to the second law of thermodynamics? Indeed in the above and onward linked there is a significant body of scientific matter at stake, but the basic problem is we are also dealing with a radical, ideologically loaded, historically unjustified redefinition of science that turns it into little more than atheism dressed up in a lab coat; imposing a crooked yardstick standard. Until that is understood and addressed, we cannot make serious progress. But then, we are also dealing with refusal to acknowledge self-evident first principles of right reason tied to distinct identity, challenges to what knowledge is and to what truth is, that is how far we have slipped as a civilisation. KFkairosfocus
January 25, 2018
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JDK, you full well know we long since thrashed this out in UD's pages and I can freely say that the people of Kansas were deceived by activists whose asserted ideologically loaded redefinition of science falls of its own weight. Further to this, as was just noted, NSTA and NAS outright held the children of Kansas hostage for their education and job hopes. In this, the radical activists were aided and abetted by a complicit, enabling media that simply has not properly disclosed the truth about what the impositions in the 2001 and 2007 redefinitions do to science. (Cf. case in point here.) In effect, turning it into atheism in a lab-coat that locks out findings that do not fit the evolutionary materialistic agenda. In short, this is a classic case of nihilists -- yes, face it -- using will to power and manipulation to impose a crooked yardstick as standard of what is straight, accurate and upright. When that is done, what is really so cannot ever pass the crooked test. KFkairosfocus
January 25, 2018
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Actually, if you check, um, Science this week, you’ll see my name.
Link? (I can already tell this isn't going to go well.) Andrewasauber
January 25, 2018
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harry @ 11: Good points.Truth Will Set You Free
January 25, 2018
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asauber @ 8 - I'm doing science. Actually, if you check, um, Science this week, you'll see my name. If you check very closely. kf @ 9 - My comment was expressing a frustration about a lack of science on these pages. I'm not going to get into a game of "definitional gerrymandering", which is what will happen. I am neither a philosopher or lexicographer, so I don't want to get into definitional games.Bob O'H
January 25, 2018
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kf, your summary of the Kansas situation is abysmal. The "dirty agit prop" operation of restoring the definition of science occurred because the people of Kansas voted out the 2005 Board and voted in Board members who supported mainstream science: democracy in action. The supporting letters you quote were not threats: they were statements of opinion that many people, including the majority of voters in Kansas, believed were true. And the Kansas science standards explicitly pointed out that many important questions in the world could not be addressed by science: the standards did not endorse materialism. I'm not going to get involved in arguing with you about this, but your ideologically-fueled intellectuall dishonesty is duly noted.jdk
January 25, 2018
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“a lot of this reads like complaining because science isn’t coming up with observations and theories that you like . . . “
Seversky, Using the wildest stretches of your thoroughly indoctrinated imagination, do you find anything even slightly suspicious about the following: Famous atheist Carl "billions and billions" Sagan assured us that "The cosmos is all that ever was, and all that ever will be." He explained to us that if we ever received a transmission from deep space containing cleverly arranged prime numbers we could be certain that the message was intelligently designed. Darwin couldn't have known this, but it turns out that the physical dimension of life consists of digital information-based nanotechnology the functional complexity of which is light years beyond anything modern science knows how to build from scratch. Atheism assures us that this information-based, beyond-our-own nanotechnology came about mindlessly and accidentally. But a mere clever arrangement of prime numbers is proof of intelligent design. Stretch your imagination to its limits and ask yourself "Could this possibly be a case of atheists believing what they desperately want to believe instead of letting the evidence guide them?" As you consider that keep in mind that the very definition of technology is the application of scientific knowledge for a purpose. Life is technology beyond our own.harry
January 25, 2018
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Yes, getting back to the science would be nice.
Dittostribune7
January 25, 2018
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BO'H: what, kindly tell us, is science, and why do you understand it that way? Do you see why we would be concerned over a game of definitional gerrymandering backed by raw nihilistic power? KFkairosfocus
January 25, 2018
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