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Bird brains and ID definition of intelligence?

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I (your regular News writer, O’Leary) am enjoying a week off to write something else, but noted that some commenters at How clever is that cockatoo? (and elsewhere?) wanted an ID definition of intelligence.

Here is the conventional definition with which I am familiar, and I think most ID theorists would accept it:

The Latin verb “intellego” (inter + lego) means “I choose between.” Intelligence, so defined, means the ability to choose one solution to a problem where other, less productive, ones are available.

An intelligent dog, observing humans raising the latch on a grooming shop cage’s door, may realize that he could raise the latch on his cage himself, using his jaw or paw. (I have seen a dog figure this out, unassisted.) A less intelligent dog would choose a less successful strategy—perhaps, just whine and bark for a human to come and do it (in a situation where no human has any intention of doing it until the groomer is ready for the dog). 😉

Choosing the correct solution is the way intelligence creates information. The more intelligent dog now has information about how to free himself from the cage. The less intelligent dog does not.

A human can frustrate even an intelligent dog’s escape efforts by transferring him to a different cage, perhaps one where 1) he cannot see exactly what the human is doing; or 2) fingers are needed to work the mechanism; or 3) a punched-in numerical code opens the door.

What the humans have done in this case is moved the search space for solutions beyond the physical and/or mental capacities of the dog.

Animals differ both individually and by species in intelligence in this sense. There does not appear to be a strict hierarchy of intelligence. Birds species, in particular, seem to vary widely in their ability to choose a successful strategy from alternatives, as opposed to simply following some sort of imprint, for good or ill.

Note that “intelligence” in this sense is quite distinct from “wisdom” or “insight” or other similar qualities.

Comments
RD:
I would love to hear from an “ID Theory” defender who can answer these questions regarding ID Theory, however.
Been there, done that. And all you could do is throw a fit and start your usual deception.Joe
July 8, 2013
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Lizzie:
My problem with ID isn’t that I think there is no Creator, but that we can’t infer a Creator the complexity of biology.
LoL! We don't infer design by the presence of mere complexity.
I don’t know why IDists always assume that the only reason anyone would be persuaded by evolutionary theory is because they think (or want it to be the case that) there’s no creator.
What other reasons are there?
Evolutionary biology could be 100% true,
What does that even mean? What does evolutionary biology say and where does it say it?Joe
July 8, 2013
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RD:
The biological designs are actually the things that everybody is trying to explain, not the explanation.
Yes, I know. That is teh DESIGN I have been talking about. The biological design is NOT the iCause, duh. It is the ieffect.
Anyway, ID says the explanation for these biological designs is an “Intelligent Cause”. I’m just trying to figure out what they mean.
And you have been told what we mean. Again you think your willful ignorance means something and i still find that hilarious. Archaeologists claim artifacts require an intelligent cause. Forensic scientists say crimes require an intellignet cause. Now please shut up and read "Nature, Design and Science".Joe
July 8, 2013
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Hi Axel,
You wouldn’t be the first brilliantly intelligent person to say stupid things or ask stupid questions, RD, as you well know.
I don't think my questions are stupid.
It’s all about openness to assumptions. Science will, CAN, NEVER explain the origin of life.
I think that is an open question. It appears, however, that "ID Theory" explains precisely nothing, although it claims to explain life and the universe.
Your questions might have made some sense under the limited purview of Newtonian, mechanistic, science, but with the relentless progress of quantum mechanics.
Why does QM make it nonsensical to ask if ID is saying that the cause of life experienced consciousness? If ID Theory is not making that claim, then fine. If it is, then there should be some reason ID Theory gives to believe it.
Science is no longer in a position to answer the big questions, such as the OOL.
You are arguing with the wrong guy, Axel. You are not an "ID Theory" proponent, so my questions are not directed at you. I would love to hear from an "ID Theory" defender who can answer these questions regarding ID Theory, however. * * * 1) What, if any, evidence does ID provide to support a claim that the iCause experiences conscious awareness? 2) What, if any, evidence does ID provide to support a claim that this iCause could explain in grammatical language how biological systems operate? 3) What, if any, evidence does ID provide to support a claim that the iCause can do anything else aside from produce the very features we are trying to explain (biological complexity, fine-tuned constants, etc), and if there is such evidence, what other things does this evidence lead us to believe the iCause could do? Anyone? Cheers, RDFishRDFish
July 8, 2013
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That's not their fault. They're just doing the math.Axel
July 8, 2013
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You wouldn't be the first brilliantly intelligent person to say stupid things or ask stupid questions, RD, as you well know. It's all about openness to assumptions. Science will, CAN, NEVER explain the origin of life. Already quantum physicists are having to shuffle unintelligible paradoxes around. but it sounds a whole lot more probable than creation being the product of some kind of dumb entity (I don't you lot to have a bout of the vapours by referring to a god or a divinity - which is a scandalous situation, really, from an epistemic standpoint) with infinite power. Your questions might have made some sense under the limited purview of Newtonian, mechanistic, science, but with the relentless progress of quantum mechanics. It doesn't make any sense at all. Deal with the minutiae. Science is no longer in a position to answer the big questions, such as the OOL. Leave that to the people who claim some familiarity with the more abstruse spiritual and theological knowledge. IDers are pointing out the non-local, super natural direction in which the minutiae of quantum mechanics increasingly points.Axel
July 8, 2013
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Hi Axel,
You know what ‘intelligent’ means, RD
It means many different things to different people in different contexts. I'm asking what it means in ID Theory.
The only arcana involved are at the religious level of the deepest paradoxes/mysteries. IDers are saying (if I interpret them aright, ‘Look! After being ship-wrecked, I ended up on a desert island, and found an old car-radiator, quite far inland. I thought, ‘Gee, someone’s been here?’
Cars are things we recognize as artifacts of human beings, so we would infer the existence of humans there. What does ID Theory propose that biological systems are artifacts of?
Your bottom line is: ‘There is no Creator.’
You are confusing me with somebody else. My bottom line is: If you are going to present a scientific theory - a scientific explanation of some phenomenon - then you should actually say what it is you are proposing as the explanation.
IDers may legitimately deny their scientific ID theory is based on belief in a Creator. What infuriates atheists is that they know that nevertheless, they have left the door open to the possibility of a divinity.
I'm certainly not the furious one here - it's all the IDers who get really angry at me for asking these simple questions. * * * 1) What, if any, evidence does ID provide to support a claim that the iCause experiences conscious awareness? 2) What, if any, evidence does ID provide to support a claim that this iCause could explain in grammatical language how biological systems operate? 3) What, if any, evidence does ID provide to support a claim that the iCause can do anything else aside from produce the very features we are trying to explain (biological complexity, fine-tuned constants, etc), and if there is such evidence, what other things does this evidence lead us to believe the iCause could do? Anyone? Cheers, RDFishRDFish
July 8, 2013
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Your bottom line is: ‘There is no Creator.’ It is a gratuitous and infinitely obstructive and infertile assumption. That is not where to start. It’s no different from the countryman who told a stranger asking directions to a certain town, that if he wanted to go there, he wouldn’t start from where they were.
Where does RDFish say this? I certainly don't say it. My problem with ID isn't that I think there is no Creator, but that we can't infer a Creator the complexity of biology. I don't know why IDists always assume that the only reason anyone would be persuaded by evolutionary theory is because they think (or want it to be the case that) there's no creator. Evolutionary biology could be 100% true, and all that would say about any creator is that she was smart enough to design a universe that didn't require endless patches and upgrades.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 8, 2013
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You know what 'intelligent' means, RD; you know what 'design' means; you know what 'cause' means. You recognise complexity in an effective artifact, created by a human intelligence; you know what means, 'best' means, you know what 'inference' means, you know what 'explanation' means. I don't mean to be rude, but you seem to view inferences that are so simple and straightforward as to be virtually automatic irrelevant, in favour of goodness knows what vast, imponderable conceptual leap you obviously wish to be necessary. Why ask for a crystal ball all the time, when you can read the book of nature? The only arcana involved are at the religious level of the deepest paradoxes/mysteries. IDers are saying (if I interpret them aright, 'Look! After being ship-wrecked, I ended up on a desert island, and found an old car-radiator, quite far inland. I thought, 'Gee, someone's been here?' If our pathetic wee artifacts cry out Intelligent Design, why would not the creation all around us? Starting with a living cell. When you've found out the origin of life, itself - I don't mean discredited conjectures - then you might have some intellectual authority to question the reasoning of IDers in that matter and all these peripheral areas. Your bottom line is: 'There is no Creator.' It is a gratuitous and infinitely obstructive and infertile assumption. That is not where to start. It's no different from the countryman who told a stranger asking directions to a certain town, that if he wanted to go there, he wouldn't start from where they were. IDers may legitimately deny their scientific ID theory is based on belief in a Creator. What infuriates atheists is that they know that nevertheless, they have left the door open to the possibility of a divinity. As poor old Luwontin, in effect, grizzled.Axel
July 8, 2013
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Hi Axel, Sorry Axel but you seem even more confused now. One more time: I am not talking about religion. If you would like to talk about religion, perhaps you can find someone else to talk to about that. I have no trouble with religion, but not being religious myself I don't talk about it much. I do love science, however, and I'm interested in ID Theory. My questions are about this "intelligent cause" that people say is the best scientific explanation for life and the universe. I would like to know what they mean, so I ask these very simple questions. It is surprising to me that nobody will answer them. If ID provides no evidence for these things in particular I think you should just say so. In any case, you needn't imply that I am stupid. Why do people here get so insulting when I ask these questions? Hmmmm. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
July 8, 2013
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Anyone with a grain of sense would ask, what could such a designer NOT do? Which was what Einstein said in his poetic rapture, was it not? What have you got between your ears???? As if explaining the miraculous beauty, efficiency, coordination and all round complexity of a single cell were not enough to make a person fall to his knees in wonder, at its unambiguously divinely intelligent designer, creator and sustainer.Axel
July 8, 2013
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Hi Axel, You seem confused by my post - I wasn't talking about religion. I was talking about this "Intelligent Design Theory" which says an "intelligent cause" is the best explanation for life and the universe. I'm trying to figure out what this theory actually means by this, so I've asked these questions. Can you answer them? Anyone else? Cheers, RDFishRDFish
July 8, 2013
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What, if any, evidence does ID provide to support a claim that the iCause can do anything else aside from produce the very features we are trying to explain (biological complexity, fine-tuned constants, etc), and if there is such evidence, what other things does this evidence lead us to believe the iCause could do? Anyone? 'My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind.' 'The scientists’ religious feeling takes the form of a rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law, which reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection.' '.....an utterly insignificant reflection.' Two quotes by youknowwho. Just a little humility, RD. Just a little. And even your questions will become intelligible.Axel
July 8, 2013
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Uh, Joe, perhaps you haven't seen the memo. The biological designs are actually the things that everybody is trying to explain, not the explanation. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha You are so funny! Anyway, ID says the explanation for these biological designs is an "Intelligent Cause". I'm just trying to figure out what they mean. 1) What, if any, evidence does ID provide to support a claim that the iCause experiences conscious awareness? 2) What, if any, evidence does ID provide to support a claim that this iCause could explain in grammatical language how biological systems operate? 3) What, if any, evidence does ID provide to support a claim that the iCause can do anything else aside from produce the very features we are trying to explain (biological complexity, fine-tuned constants, etc), and if there is such evidence, what other things does this evidence lead us to believe the iCause could do? Anyone?RDFish
July 8, 2013
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RD:
Joe’s excuse is that ID is a scientific theory that doesn’t actually try to explain anything.
Spoken like a true asshole. ID explains the DESIGN you moron. ID does NOT even try to explain the designer(s). BTW your "questions" prove that you are totally clueless.Joe
July 8, 2013
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Nobody seems willing to answer these questions. Hmmm. Joe's excuse is that ID is a scientific theory that doesn't actually try to explain anything. Ok then! Will anyone else take a crack at it? --- I think these questions would help clarify positions here regarding ID quite a bit. The “iCause” is just a neutral term I’m using here to mean “That which ID proposes as the best explanation for life and the universe”. 1) What, if any, evidence does ID provide to support a claim that the iCause experiences conscious awareness? 2) What, if any, evidence does ID provide to support a claim that this iCause could explain in grammatical language how biological systems operate? 3) What, if any, evidence does ID provide to support a claim that the iCause can do anything else aside from produce the very features we are trying to explain (biological complexity, fine-tuned constants, etc), and if there is such evidence, what other things does this evidence lead us to believe the iCause could do? Cheers, RDFishRDFish
July 8, 2013
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ID is about the DESIGN. ID is NOT about the designer(s). Reality proves that we do not have to know anything about the alleged designer(s) before determining design is present. Anything we learn about the designer(s) comes from studying the design and all relevant evidence.Joe
July 8, 2013
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So you think you can have a design without a designer, Joe?
NopeJoe
July 8, 2013
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So you think you can have a design without a designer, Joe? I agree! Cool!Elizabeth B Liddle
July 8, 2013
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LoL! ID is NOT about the designer. And RD's quote-mine doesn't refute that. Apparently RD is proud to be an ass also.Joe
July 8, 2013
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Hahahahahaha! Definition of ID: (from http://www.intelligentdesign.org/whatisid.php and many other places):
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.
I define "iCause" as "that which ID proposes as the best explanation" for these features. Joe says "Oh, ID isn't about that!" Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!RDFish
July 8, 2013
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RD- RD must stand for really dumb or really deranged. ID is about the DESIGN. ID is NOT about what caused the design, ie ID is NOT about the DESIGNER. And the ICause would be the designer. But let's back up- RD sed:
1) What, if any, evidence does ID provide to support a claim that the iCause experiences conscious awareness?
My response of ID is NOT about the “iCause”., was to that and nothing else. That RD felt the need to change the posts around to make it seem like I was responding to something else just expoases his ignorant deception ploy. I guess when your ignorance has been exposed again and again, as RD's has, you try anything and everything out of desperation. Thank you for proving that you are a deluded coward, RD.Joe
July 8, 2013
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RDFISH: The “iCause” is just a neutral term I’m using here to mean “That which ID proposes as the best explanation for life and the universe”. JOE: ID is NOT about the “iCause”. => JOE: ID is NOT about the best explanation for life and the universe. :-) Cheers, RDFishRDFish
July 7, 2013
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So RDFish is so deranged he has to mix up quotes in order to imagine he scored some point. ID is about the DESIGN, not what caused the design.Joe
July 7, 2013
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RDFISH: The “iCause” is just a neutral term I’m using here to mean “That which ID proposes as the best explanation for life and the universe”. JOE: ID is NOT about the “iCause”.
:-) Cheers, RDFishRDFish
July 7, 2013
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And RD continues to expose his ignorance:
1) What, if any, evidence does ID provide to support a claim that the iCause experiences conscious awareness?
ID is NOT about the "iCause".
2) What, if any, evidence does ID provide to support a claim that this iCause could explain in grammatical language how biological systems operate?
Just our knowledge of cause and effect relationships. Plus the fact that no one can demonstrate nature, operating freely, doing so.
3) What, if any, evidence does ID provide to support a claim that the iCause can do anything else aside from produce the very features we are trying to explain (biological complexity, fine-tuned constants, etc), and if there is such evidence, what other things does this evidence lead us to believe the iCause could do?
OK wait- when trying to explain Stonehenge we say it was designed by some unknown humans- ie intelligent agencies. We don't ask if those agencies could have also built the pyramids.Joe
July 7, 2013
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Alan Fox:
Perhaps StephenB is thinking of a sub-agency of environmental design, for example spider webs, termite mounds, caddis fly houses etc.
LoL! Spiders, termites and caddis flies are designing agencies, Alan.Joe
July 7, 2013
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“Intelligence” is that which can manipulate nature/ the environment for its own purpose
So when a river carves a path to the sea for the purpose of carrying water there, it is acting intelligently?
A river has that "purpose"? Please do tell how you determined that.
And when evolutionary processes alter the genomes of populations of organisms in order to adapt them to their environments, that is also an instance of intelligence at work?
Intelligently designed evolutionary processes, yes, absolutely. Again it's amazing how little of this debate that you actually understand. ID says organisms were designed to evolve and evolved by design. Get that through to your neural network.Joe
July 7, 2013
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Nevertheless, animals are agents of design.
I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.
Perhaps StephenB is thinking of a sub-agency of environmental design, for example spider webs, termite mounds, caddis fly houses etc.Alan Fox
July 7, 2013
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Hi StephenB, I think these questions would help clarify positions here regarding ID quite a bit. The “iCause” is just a neutral term I'm using here to mean “That which ID proposes as the best explanation for life and the universe”. 1) What, if any, evidence does ID provide to support a claim that the iCause experiences conscious awareness? 2) What, if any, evidence does ID provide to support a claim that this iCause could explain in grammatical language how biological systems operate? 3) What, if any, evidence does ID provide to support a claim that the iCause can do anything else aside from produce the very features we are trying to explain (biological complexity, fine-tuned constants, etc), and if there is such evidence, what other things does this evidence lead us to believe the iCause could do? Cheers, RDFishRDFish
July 7, 2013
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