Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Logic & First Principles, 21: Insightful intelligence vs. computationalism

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

One of the challenges of our day is the commonplace reduction of intelligent, insightful action to computation on a substrate. That’s not just Sci Fi, it is a challenge in the academy and on the street — especially as AI grabs more and more headlines.

A good stimulus for thought is John Searle as he further discusses his famous Chinese Room example:

The Failures of Computationalism
John R. Searle
Department of Philosophy
University of California
Berkeley CA

The Power in the Chinese Room.

Harnad and I agree that the Chinese Room Argument deals a knockout blow to Strong AI, but beyond that point we do not agree on much at all. So let’s begin by pondering the implications of the Chinese Room.

The Chinese Room shows that a system, me for example, could pass the Turing Test for understanding Chinese, for example, and could implement any program you like and still not understand a word of Chinese. Now, why? What does the genuine Chinese speaker have that I in the Chinese Room do not have?

The answer is obvious. I, in the Chinese room, am manipulating a bunch of formal symbols; but the Chinese speaker has more than symbols, he knows what they mean. That is, in addition to the syntax of Chinese, the genuine Chinese speaker has a semantics in the form of meaning, understanding, and mental contents generally.

But, once again, why?

Why can’t I in the Chinese room also have a semantics? Because all I have is a program and a bunch of symbols, and programs are defined syntactically in terms of the manipulation of the symbols.

The Chinese room shows what we should have known all along: syntax by itself is not sufficient for semantics. (Does anyone actually deny this point, I mean straight out? Is anyone actually willing to say, straight out, that they think that syntax, in the sense of formal symbols, is really the same as semantic content, in the sense of meanings, thought contents, understanding, etc.?)

Why did the old time computationalists make such an obvious mistake? Part of the answer is that they were confusing epistemology with ontology, they were confusing “How do we know?” with “What it is that we know when we know?”

This mistake is enshrined in the Turing Test(TT). Indeed this mistake has dogged the history of cognitive science, but it is important to get clear that the essential foundational question for cognitive science is the ontological one: “In what does cognition consist?” and not the epistemological other minds problem: “How do you know of another system that it has cognition?”

What is the Chinese Room about? Searle, again:

Imagine that a person—me, for example—knows no Chinese and is locked in a room with boxes full of Chinese symbols and an instruction book written in English for manipulating the symbols. Unknown to me, the boxes are called “the database” and the instruction book is called “the program.” I am called “the computer.”

People outside the room pass in bunches of Chinese symbols that, unknown to me, are questions. I look up in the instruction book what I am supposed to do and I give back answers in Chinese symbols.

Suppose I get so good at shuffling the symbols and passing out the answers that my answers are indistinguishable from a native Chinese speaker’s. I give every indication of understanding the language despite the fact that I actually don’t understand a word of Chinese.

And if I do not, neither does any digital computer, because no computer, qua computer, has anything I do not have. It has stocks of symbols, rules for manipulating symbols, a system that allows it to rapidly transition from zeros to ones, and the ability to process inputs and outputs. That is it. There is nothing else. [Cf. Jay Richards here.]

What is “strong AI”? Techopedia:

Strong artificial intelligence (strong AI) is an artificial intelligence construct that has mental capabilities and functions that mimic the human brain. In the philosophy of strong AI, there is no essential difference between the piece of software, which is the AI, exactly emulating the actions of the human brain, and actions of a human being, including its power of understanding and even its consciousness.

Strong artificial intelligence is also known as full AI.

In short, Reppert has a serious point:

. . . let us suppose that brain state A [–> notice, state of a wetware, electrochemically operated computational substrate], which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief [–> concious, perceptual state or disposition] that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.

This brings up the challenge that computation [on refined rocks] is not rational, insightful, self-aware, semantically based, understanding-driven contemplation:

While this is directly about digital computers — oops, let’s see how they work —

. . . but it also extends to analogue computers (which use smoothly varying signals):

. . . or a neural network:

A neural network is essentially a weighted sum interconnected gate array, it is not an exception to the GIGO principle

A similar approach uses memristors, creating an analogue weighted sum vector-matrix operation:

As we can see, these entities are about manipulating signals through physical interactions, not essentially different from Leibniz’s grinding mill wheels in Monadology 17:

It must be confessed, however, that perception, and that which depends upon it, are inexplicable by mechanical causes, that is to say, by figures and motions. Supposing that there were a machine whose structure produced thought, sensation, and perception, we could conceive of it as increased in size with the same proportions until one was able to enter into its interior, as he would into a mill. Now, on going into it he would find only pieces working upon one another, but never would he find anything to explain perception [[i.e. abstract conception]. It is accordingly in the simple substance, and not in the compound nor in a machine that the perception is to be sought . . .

In short, computationalism falls short.

I add [Fri May 31], that is, computational substrates are forms of general dynamic-stochastic systems and are subject to their limitations:

The alternative is, a supervisory oracle-controlled, significantly free, intelligent and designing bio-cybernetic agent:

As context (HT Wiki) I add [June 10] a diagram of a Model Identification Adaptive Controller . . . which, yes, identifies a model for the plant and updates it as it goes:

MIAC action, notice supervisory control and observation of “visible” outputs fed back to in-loop control and to system ID, where the model creates and updates a model of the plant being controlled. Parallels to the Smith model are obvious.

As I summarised recently:

What we actually observe is:

A: [material computational substrates] –X –> [rational inference]
B: [material computational substrates] —-> [mechanically and/or stochastically governed computation]
C: [intelligent agents] —-> [rational, freely chosen, morally governed inference]
D: [embodied intelligent agents] —-> [rational, freely chosen, morally governed inference]

The set of observations A through D imply that intelligent agency transcends computation, as their characteristics and capabilities are not reducible to:

– components and their device physics,
– organisation as circuits and networks [e.g. gates, flip-flops, registers, operational amplifiers (especially integrators), ball-disk integrators, neuron-gates and networks, etc],
– organisation/ architecture forming computational circuits, systems and cybernetic entities,
– input signals,
– stored information,
– processing/algorithm execution,
– outputs

It may be useful to add here, a simplified Smith model with an in the loop computational controller and an out of the loop oracle that is supervisory, so that there may be room for pondering the bio-cybernetic system i/l/o the interface of the computational entity and the oracular entity:

The Derek Smith two-tier controller cybernetic model

In more details, per Eng Derek Smith:

So too, we have to face the implication of the necessary freedom for rationality. That is, that our minds are governed by known, inescapable duties to truth, right reason, prudence (so, warrant), fairness, justice etc. Rationality is morally governed, it inherently exists on both sides of the IS-OUGHT gap.

That means — on pain of reducing rationality to nihilistic chaos and absurdity — that the gap must be bridged. Post Hume, it is known that that can only be done in the root of reality. Arguably, that points to an inherently good necessary being with capability to found a cosmos. If you doubt, provide a serious alternative under comparative difficulties: ____________

So, as we consider debates on intelligent design, we need to reflect on what intelligence is, especially in an era where computationalism is a dominant school of thought. Yes, we may come to various views, but the above are serious factors we need to take such into account. END

PS: As a secondary exchange developed on quantum issues, I take the step of posting a screen-shot from a relevant Wikipedia clip on the 1999 Delayed choice experiment by Kim et al:

Wiki clip on Kim et al

The layout in a larger scale:

Gaasbeek adds:

Weird, but that’s what we see. Notice, especially, Gaasbeek’s observation on his analysis, that “the experimental outcome (encoded in the combined measurement outcomes) is bound to be the same even if we would measure the idler photon earlier, i.e. before the signal photon by shortening the optical path length of the downwards configuration.” This is the point made in a recent SEP discussion on retrocausality.

PPS: Let me also add, on radio halos:

and, Fraunhoffer spectra:

These document natural detection of quantised phenomena.


Comments
H (& attn BB), I have not at all argued or assumed that God has to "add" a soul, I have simply pointed out that the physics that governs computational substrates is manifestly inadequate to support genuinely free rationality. So, if we are rational and so free, embodiment does not account for rationality. That requires that if we are free there is more to reality than the domain of physics. And if there is not, then we are not rational and not free; we are in the grip of a grand delusion, which is exactly what Rosenberg or Crick etc have argued or directly implied. I find the latter self-referentially incoherent. (Indeed I am not even confident that we can get to a point where a computational substrate has enough awareness -- consciousness -- to have a delusion. [Kindly see the infographic in the OP on rocks, dreams and delusions.]) I therefore conclude that there is more to reality, which grounds our ability to confidently do physics and associated mathematics. This points to something like the Smith model applying to our bio-cybernetic loops. I infer, for cause, a supervisory oracle which has essential unity. We may debate precise ontology and source, but just to be able to genuinely debate, it is there. Can we genuinely debate? I take it, yes. It is after that that I point to the moral government of our rationality through inescapable duties to truth, right reason, prudence, fairness/justice etc, and to the challenge that such implies that rationality operates on both sides of the IS-OUGHT gap. This needs to be bridged and that points to the roots of reality, thus we may infer that those roots lie in a necessary being that is inherently good as well as capable of founding a cosmos. How this specifically translates into how we come to have the requisite supervisory oracle, is an onward issue. To get there we must first fully recognise that this is what we are. That is why I prioritise the first issue: are we genuinely rational and free, or not? If there is unwillingness to address this and answer yes, any subsequent questions are pointless. If you agree yes but hold that the physical world exhausts reality, you need to ground rationality on physical entities. There is cause to hold, this is not possible but if you disagree, kindly adequately ground rationality on a purely physical reality: ______ If you disagree, rational discussion would be impossible on your premises. KFkairosfocus
June 1, 2019
June
06
Jun
1
01
2019
06:49 AM
6
06
49
AM
PDT
kf is saying that the physical body, as produced by the biological genetic processes that pervade it, has to be accompanied by something else: he speculates on a being from an additional dimension:
In cybernetic terms, we can identify a supervisory, non-computational oracle that observes, interacts with, is a self-moved initiating causal agency integral to a properly functioning human bio-cybernetic entity. The living meat entity is not the whole story. That is independent of how such comes to be. ... Thus, the rational ensouled agent is back on the table. Tied to, embodied in, being the form of but not merely emergent from and controlled by the body.
That is, God has to add the soul to the body, in some way, to give it free will, consciousness, etc. The question is, then, if humans designed this genome which produce a person, as we are speculating on, would God automatically and inevitably give it a soul, or would God say, "I didn't do this", and leave it a meatbot? And then the next question would be, would we be able to tell the difference? Would decisions made by a meatbot appear different from a rational, morally governed agent with free will?hazel
June 1, 2019
June
06
Jun
1
01
2019
05:31 AM
5
05
31
AM
PDT
Brother Brian,
In your own words you believe that producing such a life form from scratch is feasible, if not inevitable. So the question stands, would such a being be a rational thinking being with a soul or won’t it be an illusion, a meatbot?
Good luck getting a clear answer on that :) But to be fair, I wouldn't be able to give an informed answer until I could observe such a being, and that likely won't happen in my lifetime, I wager. Still, if I could interact with this being, I think it would be fairly easy to determine whether they are a normal, rational human (as you point out in #65).daveS
June 1, 2019
June
06
Jun
1
01
2019
05:02 AM
5
05
02
AM
PDT
BB, the matter is deeper than and different from that. The bodily, material components and their near-neighbour (thus, field of influence) interactions do not account for essential phenomena of the human as whole, functional being. Therefore, on the premise that rationality is real, this does not exhaust human nature. In cybernetic terms, we can identify a supervisory, non-computational oracle that observes, interacts with, is a self-moved initiating causal agency integral to a properly functioning human bio-cybernetic entity. The living meat entity is not the whole story. That is independent of how such comes to be. How does such a mind over matter amphibian come to be, we do not fully know, but there are hints here and there that there are transcendent dimensions of reality at work. Just think of the 4 vs 3 dimension issues on a Klein bottle. That I don't know the answer to origin (and do not venture to speculate for the moment lest it shifts focus from what is primary and a premise for onward reasoning) does not entail that I do not have a reason to hold, existent and important. Once we see distinction of characteristics there is distinct identity. The problem is to see how they are so in a whole, and it is evident that consciousness is pervasive across the gamut of the body but not constrained by the physics of material components and interactions. A simple solution is to posit a -- as opposed to THE -- 5th dimension [viewing time as no. 4] whereby an entity or point or locus there is present in correspondence to points in the common four. This is similar to how the N pole is simultaneously due north of all points on the seemingly flat surface of the earth. Because there is a third dimension and the globe is just that, a 3-d not 2-d or near 2-d entity, with a closed form that has poles. So, for argument, consider that there is a 5th dimensional pole that is intimately connected to each point in our bodies but is not working as simply a mechanical and/or stochastic component. A partial candidate is the nervous system with info flows and storage, but this does not capture the whole, especially rational, responsible freedom. It does point to information and influence that can be present and influential on a pervasive basis. We thus come to the supervisory oracle with memory and interactions in the cybernetic loop. There is need for a unitary entity, a monad, which functions as a rational, responsible, morally governed centre of self-aware, conscious, volitional identity. Thus, the rational ensouled agent is back on the table. Tied to, embodied in, being the form of but not merely emergent from and controlled by the body. Feser's point on remaining life in a recently detached, potentially re-attachable hand seems insightful. Where, what if such an entity forms with the body and is deeply connected to its informational, formational aspects (maybe even is part of the shaping fields that seem to guide bodily formation) but is not a composite entity, and is detachable. On detachment, the body eventually is unable to continue and decay processes take over, but the monad continues in its own domain. These are speculative but are intended to open up room for re-thinking. KFkairosfocus
June 1, 2019
June
06
Jun
1
01
2019
12:39 AM
12
12
39
AM
PDT
F/N4: Feser is also relevant:
someone could have good philosophical reasons for thinking that there must be some way to combine hylemorphism and dualism. That, I submit, is precisely the position Aquinas finds himself in. As an Aristotelian, he is convinced that the human soul is the form of the living human body. It is therefore responsible for all the various human capacities -- nutrition, reproduction, growth, sensation, appetite, locomotion, intellect, and volition -- in just the way the souls of plants and non-human animals are responsible for their capacities. But Aquinas is also convinced that our purely intellectual capacities cannot have a corporeal organ. The reason is that he endorses philosophical arguments for the immateriality of the intellect of the sort that go back to Plato and Aristotle. That much gives him grounds for concluding that the soul carries out immaterial operations alongside its corporeal ones. Add to this the (independently motivated) Scholastic thesis that agere sequitur esse -- that “action follows being,” so that the way a thing acts reflects the manner in which it exists -- and we have grounds for concluding that, though the soul is the form of the body, it must in some way have a kind of subsistent immaterial existence. The view might seem odd, but it is hardly unmotivated or ad hoc. On the contrary, it is a natural way of trying to reconcile two theses that Bill himself would acknowledge to have serious philosophical arguments in their favor. Nor . . . is Aquinas somehow departing radically from Aristotle. For Aristotle too was committed both to hylemorphism and to the view that the intellect is immaterial -- indeed, to the view that the active intellect is immortal . . . . Needless to say, Aristotle had no Christian theological ax to grind; he was simply following the philosophical arguments where they led. There is no reason to accuse Aquinas of doing anything different, and it is hardly unreasonable to suggest that the way to harmonize the various aspects of Aristotle’s position is the way Aquinas does. That does not mean that one might not still question whether Aquinas’s position is ultimately coherent . . . or criticize it on other grounds. But the charge that it is “wholly unmotivated and ad hoc” -- a piece of Christian apologetics with no independent philosophical rationale -- is, I think, completely unwarranted. Now, does Aquinas’s dualism cohere with his hylemorphism? . . . Let’s note first that there is nothing in hylemorphism that requires that we deny that a form per se can have an existence apart from matter. Aristotle’s opposition to Platonism might seem to rule this out, but it doesn’t. What Aristotelianism rules out is that universals can exist both apart from their instances and apart from any mind. But when Aquinas says that certain forms exist without matter -- the human soul, or an angel -- he is not talking about universals existing apart from matter. Nor is he even talking about a form by itself existing apart from matter, but rather a form plus an act of existing. Hence he is talking about concrete particulars, albeit immaterial ones. (Aristotle himself, who knew a thing or two about hylemorphism, allowed for immaterial things -- the “Intelligences” which he took to move the heavenly spheres.) So, there is nothing necessarily un-Aristotelian in the notion of a form without matter. But what about the form of a material thing? The soul is, for Aquinas, the form of the body. So how could it possibly exist apart from the body? {An objector being replied to] asks why things should be any different with human beings than they are with Fido. But Aquinas is quite clear about the answer to that question: The difference is that the human soul carries out immaterial operations (i.e. intellectual ones) while a dog’s soul does not. And if it operates apart from matter and agere sequitur esse, then it must subsist apart from matter. True, it would not subsist as a complete substance since (qua form) it is only part of a complete substance. But it would subsist as an incomplete substance, like a severed hand which subsists at least for a time apart from the body (as can be seen from the fact that the hand can be reattached) . . . . Necessarily, a form is a form of that of which it is the form. But a subsistent form is possibly such as to exist apart from that of which it is the form . . . . That they can both be true can be seen when we keep in mind how Aristotelians understand concepts like necessity, possibility, essence, and the like. Suppose we say that it follows from the nature or essence of a dog that it has four legs. Does that mean every single dog necessarily has four legs? No, because a given dog might have lost a leg in an accident, or failed to develop all four legs due to some genetic defect, or (if only recently conceived and still in the womb) may simply not yet have developed all four legs. What it does mean is rather that a mature dog in its normal state will necessarily have four legs. As Michael Thompson and Philippa Foot have emphasized, “Aristotelian categoricals” of the form S’s are F convey a norm and are not accurately represented as either existential or universal statements of the sort familiar to modern logicians. “Dogs have four legs” is not saying “There is at least one dog, and it has four legs” and neither is it saying “For everything that is a dog, it is four legged.” It is saying that the typical dog, the normal (mature) dog, has four legs. Similarly, to say “Human souls are associated with bodies” is to say that the human soul in its normal state is associated with its body, just like the human hand in its normal state is associated with its body. But it doesn’t follow that it cannot exist apart from the body, any more than it follows that the hand (at least while its tissues are still alive) can exist apart from the body . And again, the reason this is possible with the human soul and not with Fido’s soul is that the human soul, unlike Fido’s soul, carries out immaterial operations even when it is associated with the body.
Food for rethinking, especially given the extended Smith model in the OP with a candidate supervisory oracle highlighted. KFkairosfocus
June 1, 2019
June
06
Jun
1
01
2019
12:08 AM
12
12
08
AM
PDT
KF@61, if I am reading you correctly, any human synthesized being that is indistinguishable from a human in behavior or abilities, would be incapable of reason. Their thinking, reasoning and free will would be an illusion because there has been no input from some immaterial oracle. I hate to beat a dead horse, but that is a religious one, not a scientific one. If it is impossible to distinguish our manufactured human from natural born humans, then the best conclusion we can draw is that it is human.Brother Brian
May 31, 2019
May
05
May
31
31
2019
11:15 PM
11
11
15
PM
PDT
F/N3: More from Oderberg, to help us open up our thinking:
It will not do to respond (as would most defenders of the idea that artificial intelligence captures the essence of human cognition) that since computers can do arithmetic, and by their very nature have no conscious experience, it must be the case that what I claim to exist for people is an illusion. For the response assumes that what we do and what computers do when they calculate that two and two make four is the same in the first place. As a matter of scientific sociology, for what it is worth, no one has the faintest idea of what humans do when they do arithmetic, specifically, what goes on in the brain when even the simplest of calculations is carried out. Ipso facto there is no agreement on what physical system best models what we do. 8 But the logical point is that one may not assume that what humans and computers do is fundamentally the same; rather, this is a proposition that has to be proven. Moreover, the phenomenological evidence in the human case is so strong that we have a priori reason for thinking that whatever physical model is proposed, it will not capture what we do. One could, of course, seek to show that some physical model captures what we do if one took there to be no problem concerning the reduction of conscious experience in the first place. However, this is a claim that dualists of all stripes deny, so minimizing the problem will gain no traction. Nor, again, is it of any force to claim that since humans can perform unconscious calculation, such an activity can have no phenom- enology. For the question is not about what we can do unconsciously. Similarly, if unconscious perception were a genuine phenomenon (a mat- ter of dispute), 9 this would not disprove the existence of subjective expe- rience during conscious perception. Thus, one cannot neutralize the claim that there is a phenomenology of psychological activity by appealing to unconscious kinds of the same or similar activity.
KF PS: In digital computers, in principle a full adder is made up of half adders and combining circuitry based on physical instantiations of bitwise boolean algebra logic operations. In theory X-OR, AND, OR, NOT, in praxis NAND or NOR as these are closer to the natural circuit behaviour and are faster. For analogue and neural nets, we look to weighted combinations, amplifications and passing on. However, the functionality lies in the imposed architecture, not the particular components and near neighbour interactions. These components neither know nor care that addition, subtraction by complements, shifting etc are happening in ways that more or less reliably effect arithmetic operations and extensions, often taking advantage of properties of bit based systems. Presentation in decimal forms is often a conversion. Working in binary coded decimals is inefficient. Notice BTW how we architecturally impose a form and framework, composing a system that uses particular components, purposefully and with understanding to effect the result we want, here as a self-moved chosen action. And self-moved indicates that the rational self is reflexive, memory using [memories are based, generally, on feedback and storage structures] and cumulative. There is succession, a trajectory, a self-shaping at work that is influenced by successive choices, actions, results, evaluations etc.kairosfocus
May 31, 2019
May
05
May
31
31
2019
11:10 PM
11
11
10
PM
PDT
F/N2: Oderberg summarises eight theses, building on the Aristotelian-Thomist synthesis:
the central theses to be defended are as follows. (1) All sub- stances, in other words all self-subsisting entities that are the bearers of properties and attributes but are not themselves properties or attributes of anything, are compounds of matter (hyle¯) and form (morphe¯). (2) The form is substantial since it actualizes matter and gives the substance its very essence and identity. (3) The human person, being a substance, is also a compound of matter and substantial form. (4) Since a person is defined as an individual substance of a rational nature, the substantial form of the person is the rational nature of the person. (5) The exercise of rationality, however, is an essentially immaterial operation. (6) Hence, human nature itself is essentially immaterial. (7) But since it is immate- rial, it does not depend for its existence on being united to matter. (8) So a person is capable of existing, by means of his rational nature, which is traditionally called the soul, independently of the existence of his body. (9) Hence, human beings are immortal; but their identity and individu- ality does require that they be united to a body at some time in their existence.
KFkairosfocus
May 31, 2019
May
05
May
31
31
2019
11:00 PM
11
11
00
PM
PDT
F/N: For what it is worth, here is SEP on Aristotle's conception:
Hylomorphism in General In De Anima [--> the soul], Aristotle makes extensive use of technical terminology introduced and explained elsewhere in his writings. He claims, for example, using vocabulary derived from his physical and metaphysical theories, that the soul is a “first actuality of a natural organic body” (De Anima ii 1, 412b5–6), that it is a “substance as form of a natural body which has life in potentiality” (De Anima ii 1, 412a20–1) and, similarly, that it “is a first actuality of a natural body which has life in potentiality” (De Anima ii 1, 412a27–8), all claims which apply to plants, animals and humans alike. In characterizing the soul and body in these ways, Aristotle applies concepts drawn from his broader hylomorphism, a conceptual framework which underlies virtually all of his mature theorizing. It is accordingly necessary to begin with a brief overview of that framework. Thereafter it will be possible to recount Aristotle’s general approach to soul-body relations, and then, finally, to consider his analyses of the individual faculties of soul. ‘Hylomorphism’ is simply a compound word composed of the Greek terms for matter (hulê) and form or shape (morphê); thus one could equally describe Aristotle’s view of body and soul as an instance of his “matter-formism.” That is, when he introduces the soul as the form of the body, which in turn is said to be the matter of the soul, Aristotle treats soul-body relations as a special case of a more general relationship which obtains between the components of all generated compounds, natural or artifactual. The notions of form and matter are themselves, however, developed within the context of a general theory of causation and explanation which appears in one guise or another in all of Aristotle’s mature works. According to this theory, when we wish to explain what there is to know, for example, about a bronze statue, a complete account necessarily alludes to at least the following four factors: the statue’s matter, its form or structure, the agent responsible for that matter manifesting its form or structure, and the purpose for which the matter was made to realize that form or structure. These four factors he terms the four causes (aitiai)
KFkairosfocus
May 31, 2019
May
05
May
31
31
2019
10:53 PM
10
10
53
PM
PDT
BB (& attn H, DS, ET et al), the physics is quite plain, and so the combinations and interactions of material components (from atoms and molecules on up) for cause are known to be irrelevant to rational relationships of meaning, intention, implication, inference, conscious self-awareness etc. Further, future laws will be compatible with the present framework, so we are not going to build up intelligence, rationality and moral government from the bottom up. In short, the known and plausible future laws do not account for such, indeed that's why there is a literature that such aspects of our being are delusional, and another literature that seeks forms of naturalism that somehow evades such an import. The latter -- on fair comment -- consistently fails by falling into the former on close inspection or else by being in effect a repudiation. The obvious solution is that we have a supervisory oracle that rises above computation, which oracle is our core self in the relevant sense; something that is not built up from separate interacting components (which would simply extend the realm of physics). So even if in a few generations a human zygote can be chemically synthesised and implanted or nurtured in some sort of incubator, such would only account for the bodily aspect of our being. If I were to put a bet, it would be somewhere on the lines of an extension to or adaptation of hylemorphic views that look to the form of the human as a core of distinct unified identity that transcends the composition and near-neighbour interactions of parts -- so, it forms and informs, and/or to quantum influences on resolution of states, tied to an observer that is able to so interact . . . but this is only a pointer it is not a solution worked out. The problem is, that dominant radically secularist ideologies of our time tend to make us blind to the issues at stake. KFkairosfocus
May 31, 2019
May
05
May
31
31
2019
10:42 PM
10
10
42
PM
PDT
Dave@54, very interesting point. What I would be interested to hear KF’s response to is this: if we used the same technology described in the other thread to synthesize a human genome and somehow cloned it and grew it to adulthood, would it have a soul? Would it be a rational thinking being? Or would it just be an illusion? KF
If configurations and mechanical/stochastic interactions of matter were the whole story, we would not be relevantly rational.
The scenario presented above and by DaveS are the result of configurations and mechanical/stochastic interactions of matter. In your own words you believe that producing such a life form from scratch is feasible, if not inevitable. So the question stands, would such a being be a rational thinking being with a soul or won’t it be an illusion, a meatbot?Brother Brian
May 31, 2019
May
05
May
31
31
2019
04:17 PM
4
04
17
PM
PDT
daves:
But I don’t know of any barriers that would prevent people from designing (or significantly modifying) humans this way [and perhaps building them from scratch].
One BIGGIE: We don't know what it is that makes a human a human. We know that genetics influence and control development. But influencing and controlling are not determining factors. The reason this synthesized genome works with bacteria is simple- no body plan; no body parts; no cellular differentiation.ET
May 31, 2019
May
05
May
31
31
2019
02:30 PM
2
02
30
PM
PDT
hazel:
If human beings, working in a lab, assembled the genome of a human being, possibly improving it in various ways including the work explained in the OP, and then cloned that and grew it into human being, would that human being have consciousness, free will, the ability to think abstractly, etc? If so (and you would think that would be the case), what would that say about the nature of consciousness, et al?
Genomes do not determine what the final form will be. So it wouldn't say anything about the nature of consciousnessET
May 31, 2019
May
05
May
31
31
2019
01:35 PM
1
01
35
PM
PDT
I think this will have to remain a thought experiment (unless that guy in China tries it). But I don't know of any barriers that would prevent people from designing (or significantly modifying) humans this way [and perhaps building them from scratch]. Not that I would know, of course.daveS
May 31, 2019
May
05
May
31
31
2019
12:39 PM
12
12
39
PM
PDT
H, try it. KF PS: Notice IVF. Also, notice the basis on which I have reasoned, not genomes and codes in such, but the dynamics of atomic matter and any reasonable facsimile: bio-cybernetic systems and by ready extension non-bio-cybernetic systems. If configurations and mechanical/stochastic interactions of matter were the whole story, we would not be relevantly rational.kairosfocus
May 31, 2019
May
05
May
31
31
2019
12:25 PM
12
12
25
PM
PDT
re 54: that's a fascinating question. If human beings, working in a lab, assembled the genome of a human being, possibly improving it in various ways including the work explained in the OP, and then cloned that and grew it into human being, would that human being have consciousness, free will, the ability to think abstractly, etc? If so (and you would think that would be the case), what would that say about the nature of consciousness, et al?hazel
May 31, 2019
May
05
May
31
31
2019
12:09 PM
12
12
09
PM
PDT
KF,
BB, physics is why, as already pointed out. KF
What if a person performed the same modification as seen in the Syn61 case on a particular human genome, then used cloning technology to "create" a human being from that genome? Would that not be an example of designing a being with rational thought, free will, etc.?daveS
May 31, 2019
May
05
May
31
31
2019
10:07 AM
10
10
07
AM
PDT
F/N: let me make a very broad outline, using the phase/configuration space concept. Systems that change state across time can be represented as taking up positions in an abstract space that maps the states, when motion is important, a phase space, otherwise configuration space. The path across states can be mechanically driven and/or stochastic, or it can be under intelligent control. For instance, a heavy object that is not supported near earth's surface will fall at initial acceleration g N/kg, by mechanical necessity. If it is a die, and it hits and tumbles, which face is uppermost is effectively chance following in general some sort of relevant distribution. Strictly, we have chaos, driven by eight corners and twelve edges, so there is sensitive dependence to initial conditions, leading to effective unpredictability. Pulling in the quantum world, some things seem to be directly random and stochastic. By contrast, one could set up a six state code and string dice to spell out a message by setting the uppermost face by intelligently directed configuration. The question is, that computational substrates are mechanical and/or stochastic, rather than intelligent. KFkairosfocus
May 31, 2019
May
05
May
31
31
2019
09:58 AM
9
09
58
AM
PDT
BB, physics is why, as already pointed out. KFkairosfocus
May 31, 2019
May
05
May
31
31
2019
09:30 AM
9
09
30
AM
PDT
F/N: I have added to the OP following the general dynamic-stochastic system diagram, a chart showing a bio-cybernetic agent based on the Smith model. KFkairosfocus
May 31, 2019
May
05
May
31
31
2019
09:30 AM
9
09
30
AM
PDT
Brother Brian:
If the designer of humans can produce something with rational thought, free will, moral governance, whatever, .. why can’t humans, eventually, do the same?
If the designer of cars can produce something that goes where we drive it, why can't cars, eventually do the same? If the designer of houses can produce something that houses people, why can't houses, eventually, do the same? If Brother Brian can keep producing his ignorant question, why can't his ignorance, eventually, go away?ET
May 31, 2019
May
05
May
31
31
2019
09:19 AM
9
09
19
AM
PDT
KF@47, That still doesn’t answer the question. If the designer of humans can produce something with rational thought, free will, moral governance, whatever, .. why can’t humans, eventually, do the same? We both know what the answer is but that would require you to admit that your argument is a religious one and not a scientific one.Brother Brian
May 31, 2019
May
05
May
31
31
2019
06:13 AM
6
06
13
AM
PDT
ET, easy on rhetorical voltage please. It is clear where balance on merits is. KF PS: Emergency here, I have to engage RW developments and issues. UD in the gaps, for now.kairosfocus
May 31, 2019
May
05
May
31
31
2019
05:28 AM
5
05
28
AM
PDT
BB, the basic framework of physics is not up for debate. The issue is reality beyond what that framework of physics covers, that grounds rational freedom. We are back to phusis -- nature and metaphusis -- beyond nature, here conceived in terms of what physics studies. If we are genuinely rational and responsible, physics' subject matter and dynamic-stochastic frameworks do not exhaust reality. If physics does exhaust reality, we are not rational and physics itself is suspect, as it is an allegedly rational enterprise. I hold, it is undeniably true that we are rational and responsible, so reality transcends physics to enfold a domain of rational, morally governed entities that evidently are not composed of proper interacting parts that thus give rise to capabilities and characteristics. KFkairosfocus
May 31, 2019
May
05
May
31
31
2019
05:25 AM
5
05
25
AM
PDT
daves:
Anyway, if this James Stewart simulation were good enough, then it would begin to raise all sorts of questions about what makes us different from machines.
Anyway, if pigs could fly or if puddles could think...
Just like comparing nonhuman animals to humans raises many interesting questions.
Such as?ET
May 31, 2019
May
05
May
31
31
2019
05:05 AM
5
05
05
AM
PDT
Brother Brian:
My point is that humans are known to be able to use reason and thought to design many things.
You can't.
So the question still stands, why is it impossible for humans to ever design a thinking, reasoning being?
We don't have the ability to do so. Why is it impossible for Brother Brian to be a reasonable and thinking human?ET
May 31, 2019
May
05
May
31
31
2019
05:03 AM
5
05
03
AM
PDT
KF
BB, I repeat, we are working with technologies that are inherently mechanically and/or stochastically governed, thus inherently not capable of rational, insightful contemplation, inference and decision.
Again, this is certainly up for debate, but that is not what I am arguing. My point is that humans are known to be able to use reason and thought to design many things. The designer of humans is proposed to be competent at this as well. So the question still stands, why is it impossible for humans to ever design a thinking, reasoning being? Off topic: you might want to put ET back on his leash. He is peeing on the carpet again.Brother Brian
May 31, 2019
May
05
May
31
31
2019
04:50 AM
4
04
50
AM
PDT
DS, no, a canned oracle is a computational mech-stochastic entity not freely rational. KFkairosfocus
May 31, 2019
May
05
May
31
31
2019
04:49 AM
4
04
49
AM
PDT
F/N: I add to OP, a general sys model f/wk and . . . just now RW emergency permitting . . . will add on supervisory oracle architecture. KFkairosfocus
May 31, 2019
May
05
May
31
31
2019
04:48 AM
4
04
48
AM
PDT
KF,
DS, I speak of an oracle as a non algorithmic source of meaningful information in a relevant context, i.e. an original source, not mechanically or stochastically determined. A significantly free source of meaningful information. KF
In that case I would say that such an oracle_KF could not be "canned" and implemented as part of an expert system. Anyway, if this James Stewart simulation were good enough, then it would begin to raise all sorts of questions about what makes us different from machines. Just like comparing nonhuman animals to humans raises many interesting questions.daveS
May 31, 2019
May
05
May
31
31
2019
04:39 AM
4
04
39
AM
PDT
1 7 8 9 10 11

Leave a Reply