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DOES IT MATTER WHAT WE BELIEVE ABOUT MORALITY? (A guest-post by HeKS)

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A recent post by Barry Arrington started an interesting and lively discussion about morality, whether it is objective and, if so, how it might be grounded. Barry provided the job description for a clinical ethicist and then asked how a materialist could apply for such a job in good faith, given the inability of the materialist to ground his moral and ethical views in anything more solid, objective and enduring than his own subjective opinions and the opinions of his fellow materialists.

In the ensuing discussion, it seemed that many attempts were made to divert attention away from the core issue that materialism can offer no ultimate grounding for objective moral values and duties. Instead, comments were made in which certain persons recast the original question as a claim that atheists are incapable of behaving morally, or that all atheists personally believe that there is no such thing as right and wrong.

Of course, this is not at all what was claimed. It is manifestly false that all atheists personally believe there is no such thing as right and wrong. And nobody with any sense doubts that atheists are perfectly capable of behaving morally and ethically if they so desire. The point, rather, is that the atheist who believes there really is such a thing as right and wrong, good and bad, is incapable of providing a rational basis for his belief, and the atheist who chooses to behave morally is incapable of offering any rational argument for why anybody else should feel compelled to do so if they are not similarly inclined.

After all, if Richard Dawkins is right when he says that we live in a universe that has, at bottom, “nothing but blind pitiless indifference,”[F/N 1] why should we disagree with him when he declares in the same breath that there is also “no evil and no good”? If all of reality is absolutely reducible to mindless matter and energy, why should we expect that it would have any moral aspect at all? There is nothing about a quark, an atom, or any other constituent or conglomeration of matter in any configuration than can account for the real existence of any moral law by which we humans might be bound. Why should reality contain a set of objective moral values and duties that ought to compel the behaviour of humans if they are nothing more than relatively advanced primates living “on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe” [F/N 2] and are the end result of a “meaningless and purposeless process (i.e. naturalistic evolution) that did not have [them] in mind”? [F/N 3] The very notion is absurd.

Why Does it Matter?

A casual observer presented with these facts might well ask why any of this really matters. And, indeed, why does it even matter? Does it make any difference whether morality is objective or merely subjective? And does it matter whether we believe in the objectivity of morality?

Interestingly, the atheist participants in the discussion succeeded in offering some good arguments for why a belief in the objectivity of moral values and duties really does make a difference, even if they may have done so unintentionally.

For example, in comment #34, Acartia_bogart said this:

“Nobody, including theists, can objectively demonstrate that anybody’s morality is superior than anybody else’s.”

When Barry pointed out to him that he had just “effectively demonstrated the point of the [original post]” (#36), Acartia_bogart adjusted his claim in comment #41 to say that instead of referring to “anybody” he should have said “any group”, such that his claim can be understood like this:

‘Nobody, including theists, can objectively demonstrate that any group’s (e.g. atheists or theists) morality is superior to any other group’s morality.’

Of course, on materialism, Acartia_bogart is absolutely right, but the substitution of a group in place of an individual does nothing to lessen his confirmation of Barry’s original point. In reality, not only is it not possible on materialism to objectively demonstrate (or even argue) that the morality of one group is better or worse than another, but it is impossible to objectively demonstrate that the morality of any group or person is either good or bad at all, because there is no objective standard against which their morality can be measured. Furthermore, this observation cannot be limited merely to the general groups of theists and atheists. Acartia_bogart’s comment applies equally well to any group of any size. And so, by what standard do we measure the actions of the Nazis as a group? Or the Soviet Communist Party in their promotion of Marxism-Lenninism and the rampant suffering and death that atheistic ideology caused? Or, for that matter, the hateful actions of the Westboro Baptist Church? On materialism, there is no standard by which any of these groups can be judged, much less condemned. A materialist can say he disagrees with these things, but he can’t offer any coherent reason for why his opinion should be considered normative or why anyone should feel compelled to submit to it.

Acartia_bogart’s comment was not the only telling one, however. Mark Frank also offered some interesting observations. In discussing the role of a clinical ethicist, he matter-of-factly states in comment #142:

“It is not uncommon for jobs to require people to do things they think immoral.”

To commenter StephenB, who would likely agree that he has strong a priori moral principles due to his belief in objective morality, Mark Frank says in #156:

“My inclination would be to say that someone with strong a priori moral principles such as yourself would be very uncomfortable performing a job which involved setting your own moral principles aside.”

Indeed.

In #171, Mark Frank also says this:

“A moral relativist is perfectly capable of supporting the moral purposes of an organisation – indeed he/she is better equipped to do this than a moral objectivist as this involves making moral decisions relative to the moral framework of the organisation. (In practice moral relativists do have their own views and may find their subjective opinion differs from that of the organisation – but they are likely to find it easier than an obectivist to put aside their moral views and work according to the organisation’s).”

Like Acartia_bogart, Mark’s comments are right on the money. And that’s the problem. If a moral relativist finds himself in a work situation that requires him to act in a way that he deems immoral, what of it? If some situation requires that he set aside his own moral principles and act in a way that runs contrary to them, he need not feel very uncomfortable with this. Certainly he will find it much easier to do so than would a moral objectivist. After all, in casting aside his own moral code in order to operate according to the strictures and liberties of one with which he disagrees, it’s not like the relativist believes he has contravened any objective moral truths. And it seems like a paycheque is as good an impetus as any to toss one’s own relative moral opinions to the wind. Why shouldn’t the moral relativist ignore his own moral views if he deems it to be of worthwhile benefit? It seems to me that the relative ease with which a moral relativist can cast off his own moral constraints ought to be considered a bug of relativism, not a feature.

One of the functions of a moral system is to curb the more ignoble aspects of our imperfect human nature, such as a tendency toward greed and overwhelming self-interest. And yet, how much power can a moral code have to curb such tendencies toward unbalanced self-interest if we believe it is nothing more than a useful fiction that we adhere to because we think it will benefit society at large, which is primarily of importance because that will, in turn, benefit us? Can a moral code have much of a chance to prevent us from acting against the best interests of others for our own gratification if the only rational reason we can see for following it is because it generally and ultimately serves our own interests? Who’s to say that, on any given occasion, we might not prefer to have our cake and eat it, too, choosing to temporarily disregard our moral code for our immediate benefit; especially if we have a reasonable expectation that our actions in the present won’t come back to haunt us in the future? Furthermore, if we decide to do such a thing, who, on the assumption of materialism, can say we have done anything wrong?

It should be noted that the types of comments considered here from Acartia_bogart and Mark Frank are not merely the random opinions of some internet commenters. Box, one of the participants in the discussion, offered a lengthy quote from the well-known atheist, Alex Rosenberg, who is a philosophy professor at Duke University. The quote, which expresses views not remotely unique to Rosenberg, merits duplication here in full.

Taken from Box’s comment (#174):

First, nihilism can’t condemn Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, or those who fomented the Armenian genocide or the Rwandan one. If there is no such thing as “morally forbidden,” then what Mohamed Atta did on September 11, 2001, was not morally forbidden. Of course, it was not permitted either. But still, don’t we want to have grounds to condemn these monsters? Nihilism seems to cut that ground out from under us.

Second, if we admit to being nihilists, then people won’t trust us. We won’t be left alone when there is loose change around. We won’t be relied on to be sure small children stay out of trouble.

Third, and worst of all, if nihilism gets any traction, society will be destroyed. We will find ourselves back in Thomas Hobbes’s famous state of nature, where “the life of man is solitary, mean, nasty, brutish and short.” Surely, we don’t want to be nihilists if we can possibly avoid it. (Or at least, we don’t want the other people around us to be nihilists.)

Scientism can’t avoid nihilism. We need to make the best of it. For our own self-respect, we need to show that nihilism doesn’t have the three problems just mentioned—no grounds to condemn Hitler, lots of reasons for other people to distrust us, and even reasons why no one should trust anyone else. We need to be convinced that these unacceptable outcomes are not ones that atheism and scientism are committed to. Such outcomes would be more than merely a public relations nightmare for scientism. They might prevent us from swallowing nihilism ourselves, and that would start unraveling scientism.

To avoid these outcomes, people have been searching for scientifically respectable justification of morality for least a century and a half. The trouble is that over the same 150 years or so, the reasons for nihilism have continued to mount. Both the failure to find an ethics that everyone can agree on and the scientific explanation of the origin and persistence of moral norms have made nihilism more and more plausible while remaining just as unappetizing.

[A.Rosenberg, The Atheist Guide to Reality, ch.5] – emphasis mine

Scientism, which entails materialism, cannot avoid nihilism. Of course, it is not the reliance on science, per se, that necessitates nihilism. Rather, it is the insistence that science must be strictly materialistic in nature. For at least 150 years, people have been trying to find some rational way to affirm materialism without also affirming a nihilistic moral relativism. They have been trying because, unlike the many cavalier atheists who are typically involved in these discussions across the internet, they realize that it really does matter whether humans believe in the objective reality of binding moral values and duties. It matters so much, in fact, that even atheists like Rosenberg recognize that society itself would be utterly destroyed if the logically necessary implications of materialism were widely accepted. In other words, if atheistic materialism were to prosper and the atheists decided to live in a way that was logically consistent with their basic beliefs about reality, society as we know it would ultimately disappear. And so in Rosenberg we witness an interesting internal conflict in which he is determined to affirm scientism, materialism and nihilism, and yet he can’t quite get over the fact that the actions of people like Hitler seem like they must really be wrong.

Rosenberg also makes another interesting observation. He notes that if people were to recognize the necessary nihilistic implications of scientific materialism and subsequently reject the truth of those implications, materialism, and the scientism it supports, would unravel. I completely agree. People typically like to think that their worldview is in some way logically coherent, but if the premises underlying their worldview lead inevitably to conclusions that they strongly believe are false, contrary to the evidence of their experience, and in conflict with other basic beliefs they hold more strongly and believe are more warranted, then the only reasonable course of action is to accept that one or more of the premises underlying their worldview must be false.

Arguments Against Objective Morality

But is the concept of Objective Morality actually true such that it should rightly overturn Materialism? Might it be that in believing there are at least some things that are really morally wrong we are simply mistaken? For example, in spite of our overwhelming sense that it is really morally wrong to torture and murder a child for fun, could it be that such actions are merely socially unacceptable because they happen to contravene an arbitrary set of behavioural guidelines that have been agreed on by a majority of people in a particular society? Can an argument be made against the reality of any objective moral values and duties – the existence of which most people hold to be self-evident – without first assuming the truth of Materialism as a starting point? During the discussion, Acartia_bogart offered such an argument. Here is what he said:

I accept the fact that theists believe that god provided objective morality is real. But I argue that they are nothing more than a set of rules that various societies over the centuries have established because they are beneficial to an individual’s and a society’s ability to survive and thrive. . . . If morals are truly objective and given by god, why do different religions, and even different sects within the same religion, not have the same objective morals?

As anyone remotely familiar with the debate over the objectivity of morality will recognize, this is the most common argument offered against the idea that morals are truly objective. It is also ill-conceived, because it confuses the issues of moral ontology (the basic existence of moral truths) and moral epistemology (our ability to get to know those moral truths if they exist). That humans may fail to naturally grasp all moral truths perfectly does not necessitate the conclusion that the moral truths are not there to be grasped at all. That humans manage to naturally grasp many moral truths but not all is perfectly consistent with the Judeo-Christian doctrine of mankind’s fall. It is also worth noting that, absent some kind of psychological pathology, humans naturally feel a compulsion to do whatever they happen to think is morally right, whether they happen to be correct or not. Furthermore, unless they have scarred their conscience beyond repair through sustained abuse of it, they will often experience negative psychological and physiological effects when they act in a way that they truly believe is wrong.

That there happen to be differences of opinion over what really is “the good” in some cases, even among theists, only highlights why the theist can reasonably expect some form of moral direction from the Creator of material reality and the ground of moral truths if the theist is right in thinking that such a Being exists, for why would he create a material reality that includes a moral dimension and cause to exist intelligent moral agents such as our ourselves who feel the moral prodding of a conscience if he does not care that we live according to the moral values and duties that he grounds. And if he cares, why would he not aid us in understanding his desires? Christians believe that the Creator has instructed humans in regard to his moral desires and, indeed, when it comes to those individuals and organizations that profess to be Christian but have brought about pain and suffering in various forms at different points in history, including the present, the problem almost universally stems from either ignoring or going beyond the moral dictates in the Bible that Christians admit they ought to follow as their guide. [F/N 4]

And what about the fact that non-Christians and even non-theists are capable of behaving morally or developing useful moral systems that are in many ways similar to Judeo-Christian morality? Does this other common argument somehow undermine the idea that morality is objective and grounded in God? Of course not. For one thing, some such moral systems are actually modeled on the Judeo-Christian framework in the first place, even if they have afterwards excised their own foundation. That, however, is a minor point. The more important one is that this state of affairs is expected under theism because it is believed that God implanted in humanity a natural grasp of his moral laws, even if their ability to discern them (a matter of moral epistemology) has been degraded. In fact, the apostle Paul makes this very point in Romans 2: 14, 15, when he says:

For when people of the nations, who do not have law, do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them, and by their own thoughts they are being accused or even excused.

It should not be expected under theism that humans would be incapable of discerning any moral truths at all without the assistance of an external guide. In fact, they should be expected to naturally grasp a good many such moral truths. However, there are points at which our ability to discern right and wrong breaks down, where issues become grey, and we can sometimes fool ourselves about whether some course of action is truly good or merely in line with our own desires. At these times, a Christian believes the Bible can reliably adjust their thinking onto a proper moral course.

So, in short, the most common arguments against the existence of objective morality that do no simply assume Materialism carry no logical force whatsoever. Rather, the strongest ‘argument’ against the existence of objective moral values and duties remains the mere assumption that materialism is true. That is why Materialism, as a philosophical approach to reality, is so destructive to society and even basic human rights when it is believed in earnest. While it is perfectly possible for a theist to ignore his conscience and for a Christian to disregard the moral guidelines he finds in the Bible, it is also possible to say that, in so doing, the theist has acted in a way that is inconsistent with his most basic beliefs about reality and that his actions are objectively wrong. It is also possible for one theist to rationally reason with another that he really ought to live in accord with certain moral standards; that they are indeed binding upon him. Conversely, within the framework of materialism, no moral system will ever be binding on humans. It will never be capable of rationally grounding any oughts. No matter how well constructed it may seem to be, no matter how useful, any man or woman will always have an absolute defeater near at hand in the form of two simple words: I disagree.

In light of all this, and considering the ultimate importance of this issue and the incredibly negative effects that even thoughtful and informed atheists admit would ensue if the necessary implications of Materialism were widely grasped and accepted, why do so many atheist philosophers and scientists cling to Materialism as a true picture of reality? What is the root of the obsession with naturalism in the sciences? And what evidence and arguments are marshalled in support of the truth of Materialism? Well, if I’m invited back as a guest author in the future, I would like to consider some of these questions.

HeKS

______________________________

FOOTNOTES:

1 Richard Dawkins. River Out of Eden: A Darwinian View of Life (1995)

2 Carl Sagan. Cosmos (1980)

3 George Gaylord Simpson. The Meaning of Evolution (1967)

4 It perhaps needs to be pointed out pre-emptively that Christians are not subject to the guidelines of the Mosaic Law, which, in addition to making plain to the Jews the need for the redemptive power of the promised messiah, was intended to keep them absolutely separate from the morally vile and idolatrous nations that surrounded them so as to prevent contamination by those people, especially in terms of their worship.

Comments
HeKS, correct -- and this is no "no True Scotsman" fallacy . . . here is the Apostle John:
1 Jn 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all[b] sin. 8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us . . .
Bring forth the fruit meet unto repentance, the axe is laid against the root of the tree . . . KFkairosfocus
September 12, 2014
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@kairosfocus #12
Phinehas, the problem with the immoral equivalency, no problem (except for, you hypocrites . . . ) argument is that it ignores massively bloody and quite recent lessons of history to the point where those sufficiently intelligent and/or educated to know better are responsible for their destructive manipulation and deceit by speaking in willful disregard for bloodily bought truth.
Yes, exactly. What we need to remember is that these are not merely hypothetical dangers. These ideas have already led to precisely these outcomes multiple times, to horrifying effect. To pretend that the danger has somehow passed or is some kind of extreme unwarranted extrapolation is to engage in self-delusion.HeKS
September 12, 2014
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PS: and then, there's the so what factor. I believe the individual human being is of a value that by far exceeds the economic worth of a planet, which makes me see the bloodily bought lessons of history as a sacred, hard bought trust that we had better learn from. If your system reduces man to a zero, there is a so what that devalues the price of folly, lies and manipulation, and is in the end only concerned to gain and use power to personal advantage . . . as in, can I get away with it becomes the decision criterion. And we end up precisely where Plato warned against: might and manipulation make 'right' and 'truth.'kairosfocus
September 12, 2014
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It strikes me that in using this wording in my last comment... "Even in the worst cases in history of people being mistreated by individuals and institutions that professed to be Christian" ...it may seem that I'm trying to downplay the severity of the actions carried out by these professed Christians. You could just as easily substitute "mistreated" with "abused, tortured and/or killed". Of course, I would point out that these people, though they claimed to be Christians, proved by their actions that they weren't. Christians are to try to be footstep followers of Christ. The principles underlying their approach to life ought to be 'Love God and love your neighbor as yourself.' Lip service paid to belief is not sufficient. As it says in James 2:19: "You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder."HeKS
September 12, 2014
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Phinehas, the problem with the immoral equivalency, no problem (except for, you hypocrites . . . ) argument is that it ignores massively bloody and quite recent lessons of history to the point where those sufficiently intelligent and/or educated to know better are responsible for their destructive manipulation and deceit by speaking in willful disregard for bloodily bought truth. But then, precisely because of the insidious creeping benumbing amorality involved, they already are refusing to accept responsibilities of care, prudence and sound counsel in light of truth they know or should know. The vicious, downwards spiral into nihilism has already begun. KFkairosfocus
September 12, 2014
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“What we need to worry about is people really believing the implications of materialism.” Indeed. The materialists made several attempts to answer the questions I posed in Psychopath as Ubermensch, Follow-up on Psychopath as Ubermensch, and Eric Harris was Just Paying Attention. None came close to answering the question: If materialism is true, isn’t it rational for a materialist to act like a psychopath? Barry Arrington
September 12, 2014
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@Phineas #3 Thanks for the response. A few thoughts... While I'm sure you are already aware of this and noticed it, I just want to make sure it's clear that the "damage to society" issue is not specifically a theistic argument. Even atheists like Rosenberg have recognized the ultimate truth of this argument. Still, we should be clear on what the actual claim is here, which I tried to do in my article but perhaps didn't fully succeed at. The claim is not simply that if people believe materialism and moral relativism in passing that society will fall apart. Rather, the claim is that society would fall apart if people believed these things in earnest. To say that we don't need to worry about people believing these things in passing as some kind of vague acknowledgement that they fully disregard in practice, living as though they were not true, is basically to say that we don't need to worry about people believing these things if they don't really believe them. Things we give vague mental assent to in passing have little if any effect on our actions. Things we believe deeply, on the other hand, do impact our choices and our actions. A person who claims to be a moral relativist but who thinks and acts like a moral objectivist is a relativist in name only. They are giving lip service to a logically necessary implication of their preferred worldview but then living, and often thinking, like that implication is pure fiction. People like this are often in state of a sort of self-imposed delusion. They give passing mental assent to the necessary implications of the worldview they prefer to hold, which, somewhat conveniently, frees them of any accountability to an ultimate authority (think of the bus ads: "There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life"), but in practice they disregard these implications and live as though reality is something completely different than what their worldview would dictate. What we need to worry about is people really believing the implications of materialism. And the chance of that happening increases as people are indoctrinated with materialist philosophy at younger and younger ages and with the push that some are now advocating to stamp out inherent teleological thinking about nature in children before it has a chance to take hold. The desired result is for society to spit out generations of committed materialists, but little concern is given to the fact they would have absolutely no basis whatsoever for viewing the world in anything other than nihilistic terms. And don't forget, it doesn't even take a full society of true nihilists, materialists, relativists, etc. to cause serious damage. It only takes a few in power to devastate an entire society. The 20th century saw this happen time and again. All of this should be of concern even to the soft moral relativists, or to the materialists who simply don't even recognize what their worldview entails. It's not that they need to worry, "Oh, gee, society might fall apart if I continue to vaguely believe morality is relative but act like it's objective." What they should think about is that society would fall apart if people started really believing what they kinda believe in passing. They should be considering that ideas have consequences and they should be asking themselves whether or not they really believe these things that necessarily flow from their worldview and, if not, whether their worldview is sound at all and what the implications might be for them if it is not. Now, you mention that sometimes theists live as though subjective morality were true. I agree, as I mentioned in the article. The thing is, because they don't think it's true, such a person can often be reasoned with on the basis of a common objective moral standard that is both binding and rationally grounded. There is a rational basis for making the person realize that their actions are really wrong and that they ought to behave differently. The same cannot be said of the committed materialist who chooses to act badly. Of course, as a theist, I don't want to give the impression in saying all this that I think the potential damage to society that would be caused by an earnest belief in materialism is the only problem with moral relativism and earnest materialism. For the theist, there are long-reaching personal implications here related to the way we live our lives. The point, though, is that there are numerous reasons for the non-theist to take the time to reconsider his position, ranging from something as broad as the potential impacts on society to something as personal as intellectual honesty and integrity. Finally, I don't think the things you mention really bring moral objectivism and relativism to a kind of parity at all. Even in the worst cases in history of people being mistreated by individuals and institutions that professed to be Christian, the strictures of Christian morality and the belief that they were objectively true always acted as some kind of restraint on the evil that was being perpetrated. People either had to make strained attempts to twist the words of scripture to make it seem like there was some kind of limited sanction to their bad behavior, or else they had to deal with the outcry and denunciations of others who pointed out that their actions were not in harmony with Christian belief. Many times it was both. In other words, as bad as it got, it always could have gotten much worse. To see how much worse we need only look to the various regimes in the 20th century in which atheism, materialism and scientism reigned supreme and where there was not believed to be any objective basis for criticizing the evil actions and nobody who felt compelled, on the basis of a belief in objective moral values and duties, to offer loud and sustained denunciation of what was going on. Certainly the people perpetrating these evils felt utterly unmoved by any idea of an ultimate authority judging their actions by some objective moral standard higher than their own opinions. Nothing compelled them to act in any way other than what they personally desired. This reminds me of something David Berlinski wrote in The Devil's Delusion:
At some time after it had become clear that Nazi Germany would lose the Second World War, and before the war had actually been lost, one of the senior party officers – perhaps it was Himmler – in confronting the very complicated series of treaty obligations that Germany had accepted with respect to its satraps, wondered out loud, “What, after all, compels us to keep our promises?” It is a troubling question, and one that illustrates anew the remarkable genius for moral philosophy that the Nazis enjoyed. What does?
HeKS
September 12, 2014
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KF: Charlie Peacock is, admittedly, not Plato. Still, perhaps some truth can be found in his words (which seem to echo the thoughts of the Apostle Paul in Romans 6): The disease of self runs through my veins It's a cancer fatal to my soul Ev'ry attempt on my behalf has failed To bring this sickness under control What's going on inside of me? I despise my own behavior This only serves to confirm my suspicion That I'm still a man in need of a Savior The Truth does make a difference, of course. Jesus is the Truth. The atheist is always going to see a certain amount of parity between his own behavior and that of theists. This should not be too surprising, after all, since we are all of us sinners. Perhaps becoming deeply acquainted with someone who truly walks in the Spirit each and every day will convince the atheist of a real difference, but until that point, he'll only reassure himself that Plato's words don't line up with his experience, and he'll have every reason to give more weight to his own empiricism. For me, the difference that needs to be emphasized isn't the difference between the behavior of atheists vs. theists, but the difference between the atheists metaphysical beliefs and their own moral intuitions and actions, as HeKS highlights.
People typically like to think that their worldview is in some way logically coherent, but if the premises underlying their worldview lead inevitably to conclusions that they strongly believe are false, contrary to the evidence of their experience, and in conflict with other basic beliefs they hold more strongly and believe are more warranted, then the only reasonable course of action is to accept that one or more of the premises underlying their worldview must be false.
Phinehas
September 12, 2014
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@kairosfocus Thanks a lot.HeKS
September 12, 2014
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HeKS: Congratulations! KFkairosfocus
September 12, 2014
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Phinehas, Plato warned on the long term consequences of such thought as factions emerge and become entrenched -- which we have seen again and again over the past 100 years (so the "it makes no difference" argument is either utterly ignorant or outright deceitful), 2350 years ago in The Laws Bk X:
Ath. . . . [[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that fire and water, and earth and air [[i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art, and that as to the bodies which come next in order-earth, and sun, and moon, and stars-they have been created by means of these absolutely inanimate existences. The elements are severally moved by chance and some inherent force according to certain affinities among them-of hot with cold, or of dry with moist, or of soft with hard, and according to all the other accidental admixtures of opposites which have been formed by necessity. After this fashion and in this manner the whole heaven has been created, and all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only. [[In short, evolutionary materialism premised on chance plus necessity acting without intelligent guidance on primordial matter is hardly a new or a primarily "scientific" view! Notice also, the trichotomy of causal factors: (a) chance/accident, (b) mechanical necessity of nature, (c) art or intelligent design and direction.] . . . . [[Thus, they hold that t]he Gods exist not by nature, but by art, and by the laws of states, which are different in different places, according to the agreement of those who make them; and that the honourable is one thing by nature and another thing by law, and that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.- [[Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT] These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might [[ Evolutionary materialism leads to the promotion of amorality], and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [[Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality "naturally" leads to continual contentions and power struggles], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is, to live in real dominion over others [[such amoral factions, if they gain power, "naturally" tend towards ruthless tyranny], and not in legal subjection to them.
Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to relive it. KFkairosfocus
September 12, 2014
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Thanks a lot, Barry. Wasn't expecting that. Glad you liked the article.HeKS
September 12, 2014
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Great article. HeKS has been given posting privileges here at UD.Barry Arrington
September 12, 2014
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HeKs: First of all, thanks for the well-written and well-argued post!
Rosenberg also makes another interesting observation. He notes that if people were to recognize the necessary nihilistic implications of scientific materialism and subsequently reject the truth of those implications, materialism, and the scientism it supports, would unravel. I completely agree. People typically like to think that their worldview is in some way logically coherent, but if the premises underlying their worldview lead inevitably to conclusions that they strongly believe are false, contrary to the evidence of their experience, and in conflict with other basic beliefs they hold more strongly and believe are more warranted, then the only reasonable course of action is to accept that one or more of the premises underlying their worldview must be false.
For me, this is the crux of the matter. This is because damage-to-society arguments always seem to founder (to the delight and emphasis of the detractor) when one focuses on outcomes. This is, of course, what A_B was referring to when he (effectively) wrote: ‘Nobody, including theists, can objectively demonstrate that any group’s (e.g. atheists or theists) morality is superior to any other group’s morality.’ Sure, we can find in this a rather damning admission that is absolutely germane to the argument. But we shouldn't gloss over the truth of what he is trying to say in the process: On the whole, those who claim to believe in objective truth don't end up acting all that different from those who claim to believe otherwise, and this necessarily calls into question the damage-to-society accusation. But here, the honest evaluator may make a couple of admissions in regards to the above. 1. Many materialists, to their credit, live as though objective morality exists. For example, RDFish just knows that torturing puppies is wrong, even though he chalks it up to some nebulously-defined personal intuition that he imagines emerged from evolving complexity, and even though he has no grounding for why others should be compelled to live in concert with his own evolved personal intuitions. It appears that, for him and many others, the belief about torturing puppies and other moral behavior is strong enough to override the resulting cognitive dissonance. 2. Many theists, to our shame, live as though subjective morality were true. Just like the moral relativists we decry, we make selfish choices based on what is best for us in the particular circumstance instead of based on what is objectively right. Too often, our selfishness is strong enough to override the resulting moral dissonance. Though this highlights our need for a Savior, it undermines our argument for objective morality and its benefit to society. These two things bring us into a kind of parity when all is said and done. However, the honest theist should recognize in this admission a need to live more in concert with his own beliefs. And it is hoped that the honest materialist will recognize a need to continue living counter to his beliefs, and that both the theist and the materialist will question some deeply held assumptions about life and how we live it.Phinehas
September 12, 2014
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I think the issue lies with the fact that the atheist presumes that he can be moral all on his own and that he does not need a redeemer, I say this because as an atheist for 34 years I realised that I could not be moral on my own. CS Lewis in his paper Man or Rabbit, probably puts it in the best possible way.... "It will teach you that in fact you can’t be “good” (not for twenty-four hours) on your own moral efforts. And then it will teach you that even if you were, you still wouldn’t have achieved the purpose for which you were created. Mere morality is not the end of life. You were made for something quite different from that. J. S. Mill and Confucius (Socrates was much nearer the reality) simply didn’t know what life is about. The people who keep on asking if they can’t lead a decent life without Christ, don’t know what life is about; if they did they would know that “a decent life” is mere machinery compared with the thing we men are really made for. Morality is indispensable: but the Divine Life, which gives itself to us and which calls us to be gods, intends for us something in which morality will be swallowed up."Andre
September 12, 2014
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F/N: Let us welcome HeKS to our growing list of guest-posters at UD, here, he has posted on the IS-OUGHT gap and the grounding of morality challenge faced by Evolutionary Materialists. Food for thought. KF PS: I note for separate purposes that prep time for the post based on a Word document, was ~ 15 minutes. PPS . . . O/T: After a hard-fought and sometimes bitter campaign, we have a new Premier in Montserrat this morning, with a landslide defeat of the incumbent Government Party by the newly formed PDM, led by the now former Leader of the Opposition. Acceptance and concession speeches, at last count our old friend SHV down South has not given an interview. Vote counting was just now completed, after going through the night. It will be a busy time just ahead.kairosfocus
September 12, 2014
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