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More on selective hyperskepticism — answering the “Jesus never existed” historical fallacy

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It is important, as we go on to deal with understanding the deadlock on discussions about design theory, to understand how many evolutionary materialists and fellow travellers address evidence and reasoning.

For example, in recent weeks, here at UD, we have had to address how not even self-evident first principles of reason are regarded by many objectors to design thought.

Similarly, once record (or testimony) does not fit the preferred narrative, it is going to be dismissed as inadequate and/or delusional or as suspected of fakery.  In effect, after all, our senses and perceptions are not utterly reliable, so if something does not fit the lab coat clad evolutionary materialist narrative, something must be wrong.

The case of Jesus of Nazareth is emblematic, as it is frequently projected that there is insufficient evidence to ground the bare existence of such a figure.

For instance, we can find the dean of the New Atheists, Dr Richard Dawkins (late of Oxford University) in an interview with the September 2012 Playboy magazine (HT: UD News):

DAWKINS: The evidence [Jesus] existed is surprisingly shaky. The earliest books in the New Testament to be written were the Epistles, not the Gospels. It’s almost as though Saint Paul and others who wrote the Epistles weren’t that interested in whether Jesus was real. Even if he’s fictional, whoever wrote his lines was ahead of his time in terms of moral philosophy.
PLAYBOY: You’ve read the Bible.
DAWKINS: I haven’t read it all, but my knowledge of the Bible is a lot better than most fundamentalist Christians’.

Of course, this confident manner, breezy and contemptuous dismissal is the very opposite to what Paul wrote c. 55 AD, to the Corinthians regarding the core facts of the gospel transmitted to him through the official testimony communicated by Peter, James, John and other leading witnesses in Jerusalem, c. 35 – 38 AD. Testimony and record sealed in the blood of the martyrs.

In this context, it is worth the while to first pause and view Strobel’s 101 level summary presentation on The Case for Christ, as a first level response to the arguments that the world’s most famous carpenter and itinerant preacher never existed, or the like skeptical arguments:

[vimeo 17960119]

This is of course just a preliminary.

Likewise, dismissive skeptics would be well advised to pause and ponder Morison’s challenge in his famous, Who Moved the Stone, before they trash their own credibility as reasonable and responsible thinkers:

[N]ow the peculiar thing . . . is that not only did [belief in Jesus’ resurrection as in part testified to by the empty tomb] spread to every member of the Party of Jesus of whom we have any trace, but they brought it to Jerusalem and carried it with inconceivable audacity into the most keenly intellectual centre of Judaea . . . and in the face of every impediment which a brilliant and highly organised camarilla could devise. And they won. Within twenty years the claim of these Galilean peasants had disrupted the Jewish Church and impressed itself upon every town on the Eastern littoral of the Mediterranean from Caesarea to Troas. In less than fifty years it had began to threaten the peace of the Roman Empire . . . .

Why did it win? . . . .

We have to account not only for the enthusiasm of its friends, but for the paralysis of its enemies and for the ever growing stream of new converts . . . When we remember what certain highly placed personages would almost certainly have given to have strangled this movement at its birth but could not – how one desperate expedient after another was adopted to silence the apostles, until that veritable bow of Ulysses, the Great Persecution, was tried and broke in pieces in their hands [the chief persecutor became the leading C1 Missionary/Apostle!] – we begin to realise that behind all these subterfuges and makeshifts there must have been a silent, unanswerable fact. [Who Moved the Stone, (Faber, 1971; nb. orig. pub. 1930), pp. 114 – 115.]

In this context, we should ponder Simon Greenleaf (a founding figure for the modern theory of evidence) on what he termed the error of the skeptic, viz., what I have descriptively labelled selective hyperskepticism, in his Testimony of the Evangelists:

. . . the subject of inquiry [i.e. evidence relating to the credibility of the New Testament accounts] is a matter of fact, and not of abstract mathematical proof. The latter alone is susceptible of that high degree of proof, usually termed demonstration, which excludes the possibility of error . . . In the ordinary affairs of life we do not require nor expect [mathematically/logically] demonstrative evidence, because it is inconsistent with the nature of matters of fact, and to insist on its production would be unreasonable and absurd . . . The error of the skeptic [–> what I have descriptively termed selective hyperskepticism] consists in pretending or supposing that there is a difference in the nature of things to be proved; and in demanding demonstrative evidence concerning things which are not susceptible of any other than moral evidence alone, and of which the utmost that can be said is, that there is no reasonable doubt about their truth . . . .

Greenleaf went on to provide some tested, glorified common sense, long since court case tested rules of evidence, as summarised in the same Testimony of the Evangelists; on the strength of his magisterial Treatise on Evidence:

1] THE ANCIENT DOCUMENTS RULE: Every document, apparently ancient, coming from the proper repository or custody, and bearing on its face no evident marks of forgery, the law presumes to be genuine, and devolves on the opposing party the burden of proving it to be otherwise. [p.16.]

3] On Inquiries and Reports: If [a report] were “the result of inquiries, made under competent public authority, concerning matters in which the public are concerned” it would . . . be legally admissible . . . To entitle such results, however, to our full confidence, it is not necessary that they be obtained under a legal commission; it is sufficient if the inquiry is gravely undertaken and pursued, by a person of competent intelligence, sagacity and integrity. The request of a person in authority, or a desire to serve the public, are, to all moral intents, as sufficient a motive as a legal commission. [p. 25. Cf here especially the archaeologically well supported, historical backbone of the NT, Luke-Acts, given Luke’s famous preface and thesis statement at the beginning of Luke Ch 1: “1 Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the things that have been accomplished among us, 2 just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word have delivered them to us, 3 it seemed good to me also, having followed all things closely for some time past, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 that you may have certainty concerning the things you have been taught.]

4] Probability of Truthfulness: In trials of fact, by oral testimony, the proper inquiry is not whether it is possible that the testimony may be false, but whether there is a sufficient probability that it is true. [p. 28.]

5] Criteria of Proof: A proposition of fact is proved, when its truth is established by competent and satisfactory evidence. By competent evidence is meant such as the nature of the thing to be proved requires; and by satisfactory evidence is meant that amount of proof, which ordinarily satisfies an unprejudiced mind [in British usage, the man in the Clapham Bus Stop], beyond any reasonable doubt. [pp. 28 – 9.]

6] Credibility of Witnesses: In the absence of circumstances which generate suspicion, every witness is to be presumed credible, until the contrary is shown; the burden of impeaching his credibility lying on the objector. [p. 29]

7] Credit due to testimony: The credit due to the testimony of witnesses depends upon, firstly, their honesty; secondly, their ability; thirdly, their number and the consistency of their testimony; fourthly, the conformity of their testimony with experience; and fifthly, the coincidence of their testimony with collateral circumstances. [p.31.]

8] Ability of a Witness to speak truth: the ability of a witness to speak the truth depends on the opportunities which he has had for observing the facts, the accuracy of his powers of discerning, and the faithfulness of his memory in retaining the facts, once observed and known . . . It is always to be presumed that men are honest, and of sound mind, and of the average and ordinary degree of intelligence . . . Whenever an objection is raised in opposition to ordinary presumptions of law, or to the ordinary experience of mankind, the burden of proof is devolved on the objector. [pp. 33 – 4.]

9] Internal coherence and external corroboration: Every event which actually transpires has its appropriate relation and place in the vast complication of circumstances, of which the affairs of men consist; it owes its origin to the events which have preceded it, it is intimately connected with all others which occur at the same time and place, and often with those of remote regions, and in its turn gives birth to numberless others which succeed. In all this almost inconceivable contexture, and seeming discord, there is perfect harmony; and while the fact, which really happened, tallies exactly with every other contemporaneous incident, related to it in the remotest degree, it is not possible for the wit of man to invent a story, which, if closely compared with the actual occurrences of the same time and place, may not be shown to be false. [p. 39.]

10] Marks of false vs true testimony: a false witness will not willingly detail any circumstances in which his testimony will be open to contradiction, nor multiply them where there is a danger of his being detected by a comparison of them with other accounts, equally circumstantial . . . Therefore, it is, that variety and minuteness of detail are usually regarded as certain test[s] of sincerity, if the story, in the circumstances related, is of a nature capable of easy refutation, if it were false . . . . [False witnesses] are often copious and even profuse in their statements, as far as these may have been previously fabricated, and in relation to the principal matter; but beyond this, all will be reserved and meagre, from fear of detection . . . in the testimony of the true witness there is a visible and striking naturalness of manner, and an unaffected readiness and copiousness in the detail of circumstances, as well in one part of the narrative as another, and evidently without the least regard to the facility or difficulty of verification or detection . . . the increased number of witnesses to circumstances, and the increased number of circumstances themselves, all tend to increase the probability of detection if the witnesses are false . . . Thus the force of circumstantial evidence is found to depend on the number of particulars involved in the narrative; the difficulty of fabricating them all, if false, and the great facility of detection; the nature of the circumstances to be compared, and from which the dates and other facts to are be collected; the intricacy of the comparison; the number of intermediate steps in the process of deduction; and the circuity of the investigation. The more largely the narrative partake[s] of these characteristics, the further it will be found removed from all suspicion of contrivance or design, and the more profoundly the mind will rest in the conviction of its truth. [pp. 39 – 40.]

12] The degree of coherence expected of true witnesses: substantial truth, under circumstantial variety. There is enough of discrepancy to show that there could have been no previous concert among them, and at the same time such substantial agreement as to show that they all were independent narrators of the same great transaction, as the events actually occurred. [p.34. All cites from The Testimony of the Evangelists (Grand Rapids, MI: Kregel Classics, 1995). The First Easter’s timeline gives a good case in point, given the focal issue here. You may find it profitable to also examine Edwin Yamauchi’s review and W L Craig’s remarks on the resurrection vs the current version of the hallucination hypothesis. Craig’s critical assessment of the Jesus Seminar is also well worth the time to read it.]

In this context, Habermas’ UCSB lecture on the minimal facts is well worth viewing:

[youtube ay_Db4RwZ_M]

Also, Paul Maier on the historicity of Jesus vs fashionable skeptical narratives:

[youtube XAN3kQHTKWI]

It is further worth a pause to note Paul Barnett’s summary of the record of early non-Christian sources on the basic facts of the early Christian movement and particularly the existence of Jesus as an historical figure:

On the basis of . . . non-Christian sources [i.e. Tacitus (Annals, on the fire in Rome, AD 64; written ~ AD 115), Rabbi Eliezer (~ 90’s AD; cited J. Klausner, Jesus of Nazareth (London: Collier-Macmillan, 1929), p. 34), Pliny (Letters to Trajan from Bithynia, ~ AD 112), Josephus (Antiquities, ~ 90’s)] it is possible to draw the following conclusions:

  1. Jesus Christ was executed (by crucifixion?) in Judaea during the period where Tiberius was Emperor (AD 14 – 37) and Pontius Pilate was Governor (AD 26 – 36). [Tacitus]
  2. The movement spread from Judaea to Rome. [Tacitus]
  3. Jesus claimed to be God and that he would depart and return. [Eliezer]
  4. His followers worshipped him as (a) god. [Pliny]
  5. He was called “the Christ.” [Josephus]
  6. His followers were called “Christians.” [Tacitus, Pliny]
  7. They were numerous in Bithynia and Rome [Tacitus, Pliny]
  8. It was a world-wide movement. [Eliezer]
  9. His brother was James. [Josephus]

[Is the New Testament History? (London, Hodder, 1987), pp. 30 – 31. Cf. McDowell & Wilson, He Walked Among Us (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson, 1993) for more details; free for download here.]

A video presentation on such extra-bliblical support:

[youtube 4bLlpiWh9-k]

Likewise, we can trace and summarise the chain of custody of the NT accounts, thanks to McDowell and Wilson:

The chain of custody on the NT
The chain of custody on the NT

Cumulatively, the weight of textual evidence for the NT is overwhelming relative to the rest of classical literature, and grounds the authenticity of the text beyond reasonable dispute. The credibility of the basic narrative rests on the patent fact that it is eyewitness lifetime record, maintained in many cases at the price of peacefully surrendering one’s life to judicial murder or mob lynching rather than deny solemn, sacred trust of truth. A testimony that within a generation shook the foundations of Rome and drew the ire of the demonically mad emperor Nero, as the Christian movement grew and became unstoppable. All, backed up by a pattern of archaeological-historical confirmation and support summed up by Craig Evans in his 2004 Benthal public lecture:

The story told in the New Testament Gospels—in contrast to the greatly embellished versions found in the Gospel of Peter and other writings— smacks of verisimilitude. The women went to the tomb to mourn privately and to perform duties fully in step with Jewish burial customs. They expected to find the body of Jesus; ideas of resurrection were the last thing on their minds. The careful attention given the temporary tomb is exactly what we should expect. Pious fiction—like that seen in the Gospel of Peter— would emphasize other things. Archaeology can neither prove nor disprove the resurrection, but it can and has shed important light on the circumstances surrounding Jesus’ death, burial, and missing corpse . . . .

Research in the historical Jesus has taken several positive steps in recent years. Archaeology, remarkable literary discoveries, such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, and progress in reassessing the social, economic, and political setting of first-century Palestine have been major factors. Notwithstanding the eccentricities and skepticism of the Jesus Seminar, the persistent trend in recent years is to see the Gospels as essentially reliable, especially when properly understood, and to view the historical Jesus in terms much closer to Christianity’s traditional understanding, i.e., as proclaimer of God’s rule, as understanding himself as the Lord’s anointed, and, indeed, as God’s own son, destined to rule Israel. But this does not mean that the historical Jesus that has begun to emerge in recent years is simply a throwback to the traditional portrait. The picture of Jesus that has emerged is more finely nuanced, more obviously Jewish, and in some ways more unpredictable than ever. The last word on the subject has not been written and probably never will be. Ongoing discovery and further investigation will likely force us to make further revisions as we read and read again the old Gospel stories and try to come to grips with the life of this remarkable Galilean Jew.

In this context, it is finally worth doing some summing up on the minimal facts:

The minimal facts method only uses sources which are multiply attested, and agreed to by a majority of scholars (ranging from atheist to conservative). This requires that they have one or more of the following criteria which are relevant to textual criticism:

  1. Multiple sources – If two or more sources attest to the same fact, it is more likely authentic
  2. Enemy attestation – If the writers enemies corroborate a given fact, it is more likely authentic
  3. Principle of embarrassment – If the text embarrasses the writer, it is more likely authentic
  4. Eyewitness testimony – First hand accounts are to be prefered
  5. Early testimony – an early account is more likely accurate than a later one

Having first established the well attested facts, the approach then argues that the best explanation of these agreed to facts is the resurrection of Jesus Christ . . . . [Source: “Minimal facts” From Apologetics Wiki. Full article: here. (Courtesy, Wayback Machine.)]

Why is that so?

The easiest answer is to simply list the facts that meet the above criteria and are accepted by a majority to an overwhelming majority of recent and current scholarship after centuries of intense debate:

[THE TWELVE “MINIMAL FACTS”]

1. Jesus died by crucifixion [–> which implies his historicity!].

2. He was buried.

3. His death caused the disciples to despair and lose hope.

4. The tomb was empty (the most contested).

5. The disciples had experiences which they believed were literal appearances of the risen Jesus (the most important proof). [–> Note, the fact-finding is a cautious statement as to what the disciples believed based on their individual and collective experiences; this is not a miracle claim]

6. The disciples were transformed from doubters to bold proclaimers.

7. The resurrection was the central message.

8. They preached the message of Jesus’ resurrection in Jerusalem. [–> dating to the 30’s AD, per the consensus on the source and timing of the recorded (c. AD 55) creedal summary with identified lead witnesses found in 1 Cor 15:1 – 11]

9. The Church was born and grew.

10. Orthodox Jews who believed in Christ made Sunday their primary day of worship.

11. James was converted to the faith when he saw the resurrected Jesus (James was a family skeptic).

12. Paul was converted to the faith (Paul was an outsider skeptic).

[Cf. Habermas’ paper here and a broader more popular discussion here. NT Wright’s papers here and here give a rich and deep background analysis. Here is a video of a pastoral presentation of a subset of the facts. Habermas presents the case as videos here and here, in two parts. Here is a video of a debate he had with Antony Flew.]

The list of facts is in some respects fairly obvious.

That a Messiah candidate was captured, tried and crucified — as Gamaliel hinted at — was effectively the death-knell for most such movements in Israel in the era of Roman control; to have to report such a fate was normally embarrassing and discrediting to the extreme in a shame-honour culture. The Jews of C1 Judaea wanted a victorious Greater David to defeat the Romans and usher in the day of ultimate triumph for Israel, not a crucified suffering servant.  In the cases where a movement continued, the near relatives took up the mantle. That is facts 1 – 3 right there. Facts 10 – 12 are notorious. While some (it looks like about 25% of the survey of scholarship, from what I have seen) reject no 4, in fact it is hard to see a message about a resurrection in C1 that did not imply that the body was living again, as Wright discusses here. Facts 5 – 9 are again, pretty clearly grounded.

So, the challenge is to explain this cluster or important subsets of it, without begging questions and without selective hyperskepticism. The old Deist objections (though sometimes renewed today) have deservedly fallen by the wayside. [Also, cf. ten video shorts on popular myths here.]

We may briefly compare:

“Theory”
Match to four major credible facts regarding Jesus of Nazareth & his Passion
Overall score/20
Died by crucifixion
(under Pontius Pilate) at
Jerusalem
c 30 AD
Was buried, tomb was found empty
Appeared to multiple disciples,
many of whom proclaimed
& suffered for their
faith
Appeared to key
objectors who then became church leaders: James & Paul
Bodily Resurrection
5
5
5
5
20
Visions/
hallucinations
5
2
2
1
10
Swoon/recovery
1
3
2
2
8
Wrong tomb
5
1
1
1
8
Stolen body/fraud
5
2
1
1
9
Quran 4:155 -6: “They did not slay him, neither crucified him.” 1 1 1 1 4
 “Jesus never existed” 1 1 1 1 4
 “Christianity as we know it was cooked up by Constantine and  others at Nicea, who censored/ distorted the original record” 1 1 1 1 4
“What we have today is ‘Paulianity,’ not the original teachings of Jesus and his disciples” 2 1 1 2 6
Christianity — including the resurrection —  is a gradually emerging legend based on a real figure
5
1
1
1
8
Complete legend/pagan copycat (Greek, Persian, Egyptian, etc)
1
1
1
1
4

(I have given my scores above, based on reasoning that should be fairly obvious. As an exercise you may want to come up with your own scores on a 5 – 1 scale: 5 = v. good/ 4 = good/ 3 = fair/ 2 = poor/ 1 = v. poor, with explanations. Try out blends of the common skeptical theories to see how they would fare.)

Laying a priori anti-supernaturalism aside as a patent case of worldview level question-begging closed mindedness, the above table shows that there are two serious candidates today, the resurrection as historically understood, or some version of a collective vision/hallucination that led to a sincere (but plainly mistaken) movement.

The latter of course runs into  the problem that such collective visions are not psychologically plausible as the cultural expectations of a resurrection would have been of a general one in the context of the obvious military triumph of Israel. Nor, does it explain the apparently missing body. Moreover, we know separately, that the culturally accepted alternative would have been individual prophetic visions of the exalted that on being shared would comfort the grieving that the departed rested with God. So, an ahead of time individual breakthrough resurrection — even, one that may be accompanied by some straws in the wind of what is to come in fulness at the end — is not part of the mental furniture of expectations in C1 Judaism.  Where, hallucinations and culturally induced visions are going to be rooted in such pre-existing mental “furniture.”

Where, also — tellingly — the women who bought spices and went to the tomb that morning plainly expected to find it occupied by a dead prophet, one unjustly judicially murdered as so many others had been.  (And if you doubt the account that reports how these women became the first to discover the tomb and to see the risen Messiah, consider how dismissive C1 Jews were to the testimony of “hysterical” — that very word in English is rooted in the Greek for womb, hustera (reflecting a very old prejudice . . . ) — women. Such an embarrassing point would only be admitted if the reporter was seeking to tell the full truth as best as he could, regardless of how poorly it would come across to his audience; a C1 audience, not a C21 one.)

The Easter event cuts across all reasonable cultural expectations, and obviously forced a much closer — transforming — look at messianic prophetic passages such as Isa 52 – 53 which plainly led to an aha moment.

Notwithstanding, I can understand how someone can come to a conclusion that the famous carpenter from Nazareth turned itinerant preacher ran into troubles with local and colonial authorities and paid with his life. Then, maybe someone is willing to argue that (despite the problems) some of the followers had visions that convinced them that he was risen from death and against all odds stood in the teeth of concerted powers to the point where at length after a bloody trail of woe, persecution and peaceful martyrdom, the Christian faith prevailed.

But the sort of dismissiveness about the bare historicity of the carpenter from Galilee — itself BTW, a major point of admitting an embarrassing fact that in those days was enough to make many inclined to dismiss — does not come across as reasonably warranted by evidence.

Frankly, it comes across as smacking of ideological desperation to lock out of consideration a major but unwelcome worldview alternative, ethical theism in the Judaeo Christian tradition.

And, in that context, the matter sheds a telling light on the attitudes and agendas that seem to lurk in the background of debates over things like the design inference.

In short, I am appealing for a less polarised, less intransigently hyperskeptical approach to evidence and warrant. And, not just for the design issue. I frankly fear that the locked-in agenda approach is a big part of a march of folly now in progress at all sorts of levels across our civilisation. A civilisation that, to me, seems to be on a collision course with reality — and which is inclined to forget that those who despise the lessons of history bought with blood and tears doom themselves to pay much the same price yet again.

change_challCan we not find a better way? Before it is too late? END

 

Comments
LT: Isn't it interesting that you are off on tangents? Doesn't that tell us something significant? Of the list of Q's, only one is fully relevant. And there is an obvious reason why Ac ends in 62 AD without the resolution of the hearing. It had not happened yet, inter alia suggesting that Lk-Ac served as defense briefs at least in draft form. Given the strong historical interest of the work, it is very hard to put up another reason why there is such a cut off. As J A T Robinson, in his re-evaluation, puts on the table. Beyond that I will simply say that there are good sources on Paul out there and that Ac 15 and Gal 2 need not refer to the same visits. Paul was obviously in Jerusalem many times across his life; two relevant ones in the 40's being the famine relief visit in answer to a revelation and the more obviously public controversy resolving one in c 49 AD, following his first missionary tour; both while he was based on Antioch in Syria. And, once we have a reasonable source, we have an epistemic right to learn from it as teaching us history. As full well you know. A much more relevant question is how something so obviously un-rhetorical (positively embarrassing in fact with both Jews and Gentiles . . . that message of the cross thingie and more) and un-philosophical in C1 terms, was ever able to wax strong and prevail, especially when believing it could easily cost you your life. The answer Paul gives us later in 1 Cor 1 is this, which is to be understood in the context of events in Ac 17 and 18:
1 Cor 1: 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. Christ the Wisdom and Power of God 18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.” 20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach[b] to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom [Philo + sophia = love of wisdom], 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards,[c] not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being[d] might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him[e] you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”
In short, the gospel message was utterly, embarrassingly cross-grained to the things that would be generally persuasive in that time and place, to the point that we see here irony laid on pretty thickly. There was an unanswerable manifestation of power, carried by the 500 eyewitnesses and inducing further manifestations of power (which continue to today) that transforms life and impacts people with the manifest hand of God to save, heal and deliver. He yet answers by FIRE. As Pascal so memorably noted in that private note on November 23 1654:
"The Memorial": The year of grace 1654 Monday, 23 November, feast of Saint Clement, Pope and Martyr, and of others in the Martyrology. Eve of Saint Chrysogonus, Martyr and others. From about half past ten in the evening until half past midnight. Fire 'God of Abraham, God of Isaac, God of Jacob,' not of philosophers and scholars. Certainty, certainty, heartfelt, joy, peace. God of Jesus Christ. God of Jesus Christ. My God and your God. 'Thy God shall be my God.' The world forgotten, and everything except God. He can only be found by the ways taught in the Gospels. Greatness of the human soul. 'O righteous Father, the world had not known thee, but I have known thee.' Joy, joy, joy, tears of joy. I have cut myself off from him. They have forsaken me, the fountain of living waters. 'My God wilt thou forsake me?' Let me not be cut off from him for ever! And this is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.' Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ. I have cut myself off from him, shunned him, denied him, crucified him. Let me never be cut off from him! He can only be kept by the ways taught in the Gospel. Sweet and total renunciation. Total submission to Jesus Christ and my director. Everlasting joy in return for one day's effort on earth. I will not forget thy word. Amen.
He yet answers those who respond to the promptings of the Spirit, turning to the truth and the right. Yes, there is adequate, accessible evidence with in fact millions of the transformed across the ages and today. That is why, from the Apostles, martyrs and confessors of C1 to those of the Islamic State and Umpqua last week, there have been so many unwilling to live a lie merely to save for the moment what they cannot keep in the end; who have gained what they cannot lose. Yes, that is the voice of Jim Elliot, martyr missionary to the Auca tribe. And in that context, the C1 record and surrounding information bring us face to face with the force of those twelve minimal findings of fact that have come to the fore across the past generation. Across the spectrum of scholarship. KFkairosfocus
October 6, 2015
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KF @35
Sounds far too closely familiar for comfort, 1900 years later.
Yes, it certainly does.
Persecution Will Come “Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves. Beware of men, for they will deliver you over to courts and flog you in their synagogues, and you will be dragged before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them and the Gentiles. When they deliver you over, do not be anxious how you are to speak or what you are to say, for what you are to say will be given to you in that hour. For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. Brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death, and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes. “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. It is enough for the disciple to be like his teacher, and the servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign those of his household. [Matthew 10:16-25 (ESV)]
Have No Fear “So have no fear of them, for nothing is covered that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known. What I tell you in the dark, say in the light, and what you hear whispered, proclaim on the housetops. And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. But even the hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows. So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven. [Matthew 10:26-33 (ESV)]
Rev. 22:21Dionisio
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KF (41), Following your lead, our neutral observer might want to explore this Paul character, and so would inevitably learn that there are many questions about the life of Paul that scholars have debated over the years. Among them: * Was Paul actually in Jerusalem studying under Gamaliel? * What was the “thorn in the flesh” of 2 Corinthians 12:7? * Are the reports of the meeting in Jerusalem told in Galatians 2:1-10 and Acts 15:6-29 reconcilable? * Was Paul actually a Roman citizen? * Could someone like Apollos actually be preaching Christianity without the Holy Spirit (as related in Acts 19:1-7)? * What does Paul mean in 1 Corinthians 4:21 when he threatens the Corinthians with a stick? * Why does Acts end where it does? Of course, none of these controversies necessarily casts doubt on the passage you cite, where Paul relates the history/teaching he received about Jesus' post-death visits (which would have occurred some twenty or more years earlier in a land 1650 miles away). I don't see exactly what you think I am being hyperskeptical about, selectively or otherwise. Would you be interested in sharing how you yourself have avoided selective hyperskepticism in your own thinking?LarTanner
October 6, 2015
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LT, Pardon but your hypothetical, neutral interested reviewer will first need to address issues such as this from c 55 AD:
1 Cor 15:1 15 Now I would remind you, brothers,[a] of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me . . . 11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.
As in, the summary traceable to c 35 - 38 AD, of the testimony of the chief witnesses, this being recorded to a partly hostile audience with invite to check it out on grounds that the majority of the witnesses were alive at the time. Summary, paid for in the blood of the witnesses to the point that they re-wrote the meaning of the word for witness to mean witness sealed in the courage that surrenders to judicial or mob murder rather than falsely recant supremely important truth. Further to this, Lk-Ac is the historical backbone of NT studies and passes the test of multiple archaeological support in a context of showing habitual detailed accuracy. This two-volume work covers c 4 BC - 62 AD, is self consciously historical and somehow otherwise inexplicably does not go into the shortly following deaths of three principals and the epochal Jewish War from 66 AD though precursors are clearly evident 57 - 59 AD. This work clearly points to earlier oral and written sources and per analysis uses Mk as a major trusted source, dating that to likely 50 - 60 AD. Lk and MK, per embarrassment, as well as 1 Cor 15 almost go out of their way to make a case that rhetorically undermines the case save to one realising this is painful and inconvenient truth telling. And of course neither Mk nor Lk are Apostles, but there is no serious historic dispute to authorship: Mk records Peter's report and Lk an associate of Paul records on commission a historical writeup. Which turns out to fit the times very well. The hostility of the "neutral onlookers I leave to this as a handy summary:
Although Robinson was within the liberal theology tradition, he challenged the work of colleagues in the field of exegetical criticism. Specifically, Robinson examined the New Testament’s reliability, because he believed that very little original research had been completed in the field during the period between 1900 and the mid-1970s. Concluding his research, he wrote in his work, Redating the New Testament,[13] that past scholarship was based on a “tyranny of unexamined assumptions” and an “almost willful blindness”. Robinson concluded that much of the New Testament was written before AD 64, partly based on his judgement that there is little textual evidence that the New Testament reflects knowledge of the Temple’s AD 70 destruction. In relation to the four gospels’ dates of authorship, Robinson placed Matthew at 40 to after 60, Mark at about 45 to 60, Luke at before 57 to after 60, and John at from 40 to after 65.[14][15] Robinson also argued that the letter of James was penned by a brother of Jesus Christ within twenty years of Jesus’ death, that Paul authored all the books that bear his name, and that the apostle John wrote the fourth Gospel. Robinson also opined that because of his investigations, a rewriting of many theologies of the New Testament was in order.[16][17][18] C. H. Dodd, in a frank letter to Robinson wrote: “I should agree with you that much of the late dating is quite arbitrary, even wanton, the offspring not of any argument that can be presented, but rather of the critic’s prejudice that, if he appears to assent to the traditional position of the early church, he will be thought no better than a stick-in-the-mud.”[19]
And even were the later dates that are now common, up to c 85 AD on the table that is still within eyewitness lifetime. Yes Jn may be 95 or so, as an end of life by the surviving member of the twelve. That is no problem, especially for one showing detailed knowledge of pre-66 - 70 Palestine. Not to mention, such dates are well within reach of competent reports and histories. The traceable chain from there on simply underscores the authenticity. Going beyond, this is all distractive from the focal dozen minimal facts, which are a summary of the barebones consensus of a generation of scholarship, after the rethinking that John Robinson is indicative of. Just for those who need it, I note the codex P52 c 125 AD from Egypt bookends the NT as C1, and the usage of 25 of the books by 96 - 115 by the first three writing Fathers as implicitly acknowledged scripture underscores the timeline in the OP. I clip the OP again, in context of the actual substantial account and its almost in your face the "un-rhetoric" unvarnished approach:
That a Messiah candidate was captured, tried and crucified — as Gamaliel hinted at — was effectively the death-knell for most such movements in Israel in the era of Roman control; to have to report such a fate was normally embarrassing and discrediting to the extreme in a shame-honour culture. The Jews of C1 Judaea wanted a victorious Greater David to defeat the Romans and usher in the day of ultimate triumph for Israel, not a crucified suffering servant. In the cases where a movement continued, the near relatives took up the mantle. That is facts 1 – 3 right there. Facts 10 – 12 are notorious. While some (it looks like about 25% of the survey of scholarship, from what I have seen) reject no 4, in fact it is hard to see a message about a resurrection in C1 that did not imply that the body was living again, as Wright discusses here. Facts 5 – 9 are again, pretty clearly grounded. So, the challenge is to explain this cluster or important subsets of it, without begging questions and without selective hyperskepticism. The old Deist objections (though sometimes renewed today) have deservedly fallen by the wayside.
And finally, I am speaking to a pattern that has become very evident in recent weeks, of an intransigence that starts with resisting even distinct identity and its immediate corollaries. Going on to the sort of trashing of history and record exemplified by Prof Dawkins as cited as exhibit no 1 in the OP, and continuing straight down the line. Something is deeply wrong, and selective hyperskepticism is as good a label as any. If anyone needs to know how pervasive and dangerous this is, just google "elevatorgate." In short, I am saying, enough is enough. Remember, onlookers, I am not trying to "prove" Jesus' resurrection or the like, I am laying down twelve general consent findings of fact across the spectrum of scholarship, on 3,000 works, and I am then inviting examination in light of reasonable principles of investigation. We need to rethink the attitude, skepticism is a virtue and instead seek to be reasonable, fair but careful and responsible, truth honouring thinkers. KFkairosfocus
October 6, 2015
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And LarTanner knows that he can't know.... Well how do you know that you can't know?Andre
October 6, 2015
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Thank you, KF. The neutral and interested observer can review from different scholarly sources when the four canonical gospels were written, where, by whom, and for what possible reasons. That observer can also assess whether the canonical gospels seem to have corroboration outside themselves for specific events. I cannot comment on your charge of my own "selective hyper-skepticism." I agree that there probably was a historical Jesus. I have come to believe that there really might have been an historical figure behind King Arthur. I figure there was probably a real Buddha and a real Mohammed. I am not sure if there was a Homer. I think William Shakespeare was Shakespeare. I think Oswald killed Kennedy. It's a strange and confusing world, my man. People and our stories don't make it any less so.LarTanner
October 6, 2015
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F/N: It should be clear enough what this issue of witness and record is showing on the epistemological questions connected to ID. We are dealing with an ilk not open to self-evident first principles of reason, starting with the import of distinct identity. We are dealing with those who will not respond reasonably to eyewitness testimony and credible record coming from exceptionally good chain and repository. We have no reason to be confident that such can be trusted with the reconstruction of a deep past of origins on inference to best explanation informed by traces of the past and observed credibly adequate causal factors. Indeed, such will predictably exert selectively hyperskeptical dismissals driven by a priori commitment to evolutionary materialist scientism dressed up in a lab coat or its fellow travellers. This is a part of the accelerating intellectual disintegration of our civilisation that frankly has me extremely pessimistic as marches of folly increasingly take over everywhere we care to look. KFkairosfocus
October 6, 2015
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LT, there you go again asserting away the facts. I suggest that you start with the fact that we have four gospels, one with a vol 2 which has a lot of eyewitness testimony on the period 4 bc - 62 ad, plus several epistles with a lot of very early materials embedded. Where as already shown, a lot of the substance reported is exactly what someone in C1 - 2 making up stories would not do, utterly embarrass himself rhetorically again and again with both Jewish and Greco-Roman audiences . . . which is exactly the sort of thing that set up the pattern just seen where the Roman Governor of Bithynia did not know just how to try Christians but was confident that being such a suspect person and "obstinate" in the face of an order to desist from such a "superstition" from so august a person should cost you your life. An attitude that is already resurfacing. . The extra-biblical witnesses come later though some are within the window. Next, you have archaeological support, which lends considerable credibility to the sources. As Robinson said, there is no good reason to put the Gospels outside the eyewitness window, and the same can be said for the core Pauline deposit. And on chain of custody cf the timeline in the OP above. The early Christian deposit is collectively the best attested body of evidence of anything documentary from antiquity; it is only serious prejudice that has led many to think they can despise and dismiss it to the point of the fallacy of confident manner dismissal of the bare historicity of the world's most famous carpenter. Once witnesses show themselves reasonably credible, there is no good reason that we cannot learn from them. And notice, the list of facts in view -- recall, this is the majority to consensus view across relevant scholarship in the past generation, on methods outlined above -- does not include any declaration of any supernatural event, though it leaves us the challenge to explain why the core C1 leaders were so convinced they surrendered life rather than deny what they believed to be truth known by being eyewitnesses. So, it is pretty plain that we are here dealing with selective hyperskepticism. Which is the point of the OP. KFkairosfocus
October 6, 2015
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KF (31 and 32): It simply, factually cannot be said that "every one of those minimal facts comes from multiple primary eyewitness lifetime sources passed down in good chain of custody or repository." We do not have good enough warrant either for "eyewitness" or "good chain of custody," which is not to say we have no warrant at all or nothing substantial to say. Bart Ehrman's scholarly and popular work covers this ground, but then so does the entire field of biblical criticism In any case, onlookers can sort through Habermas and his "minimal facts" arguments for themselves. They can review Ehrman and other scholars of biblical texts and history. Song - It Don't Matter to MeLarTanner
October 6, 2015
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D, thanks. Notice, Pliny the Younger, c 112 AD:
in the case of those who were denounced to me as Christians, I have observed the following procedure: I interrogated these as to whether they were Christians; those who confessed I interrogated a second and a third time, threatening them with punishment; those who persisted I ordered executed. For I had no doubt that, whatever the nature of their creed, stubbornness and inflexible obstinacy surely deserve to be punished. There were others possessed of the same folly; but because they were Roman citizens, I signed an order for them to be transferred to Rome.
Sounds far too closely familiar for comfort, 1900 years later. KFkairosfocus
October 6, 2015
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Interesting discussion. Thank you KF for the insightful OP, thank y'all for your comments.Dionisio
October 6, 2015
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The war of atonement: http://kairosfocus.blogspot.com/2015/10/october-6-1973-42-years-remembering-yom.htmlkairosfocus
October 6, 2015
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LT: I draw your attention, this very week and this very day the anniversary of the Yom Kippur attack in 1973, that so nearly destroyed Israel when the Syrians broke through:
Pliny the Younger was governor of Pontus/Bithynia from 111-113 AD. We have a whole set of exchanges of his letters with the emperor Trajan on a variety of administrative political matters. These two letters are the most famous, in which P. encounters Christianity for the first time. Pliny, Letters 10.96-97 Pliny to the Emperor Trajan It is my practice, my lord, to refer to you all matters concerning which I am in doubt. For who can better give guidance to my hesitation or inform my ignorance? I have never participated in trials of Christians. I therefore do not know what offenses it is the practice to punish or investigate, and to what extent. And I have been not a little hesitant as to whether there should be any distinction on account of age or no difference between the very young and the more mature; whether pardon is to be granted for repentance, or, if a man has once been a Christian, it does him no good to have ceased to be one; whether the name itself, even without offenses, or only the offenses associated with the name are to be punished. Meanwhile, in the case of those who were denounced to me as Christians, I have observed the following procedure: I interrogated these as to whether they were Christians; those who confessed I interrogated a second and a third time, threatening them with punishment; those who persisted I ordered executed. For I had no doubt that, whatever the nature of their creed, stubbornness and inflexible obstinacy surely deserve to be punished. There were others possessed of the same folly; but because they were Roman citizens, I signed an order for them to be transferred to Rome. Soon accusations spread, as usually happens, because of the proceedings going on, and several incidents occurred. An anonymous document was published containing the names of many persons. Those who denied that they were or had been Christians, when they invoked the gods in words dictated by me, offered prayer with incense and wine to your image, which I had ordered to be brought for this purpose together with statues of the gods, and moreover cursed Christ--none of which those who are really Christians, it is said, can be forced to do--these I thought should be discharged. Others named by the informer declared that they were Christians, but then denied it, asserting that they had been but had ceased to be, some three years before, others many years, some as much as twenty-five years. They all worshipped your image and the statues of the gods, and cursed Christ. They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food--but ordinary and innocent food. Even this, they affirmed, they had ceased to do after my edict by which, in accordance with your instructions, I had forbidden political associations. Accordingly, I judged it all the more necessary to find out what the truth was by torturing two female slaves who were called deaconesses. But I discovered nothing else but depraved, excessive superstition. I therefore postponed the investigation and hastened to consult you. For the matter seemed to me to warrant consulting you, especially because of the number involved. For many persons of every age, every rank, and also of both sexes are and will be endangered. For the contagion of this superstition has spread not only to the cities but also to the villages and farms. But it seems possible to check and cure it. It is certainly quite clear that the temples, which had been almost deserted, have begun to be frequented, that the established religious rites, long neglected, are being resumed, and that from everywhere sacrificial animals are coming, for which until now very few purchasers could be found. Hence it is easy to imagine what a multitude of people can be reformed if an opportunity for repentance is afforded. Trajan to Pliny You observed proper procedure, my dear Pliny, in sifting the cases of those who had been denounced to you as Christians. For it is not possible to lay down any general rule to serve as a kind of fixed standard. They are not to be sought out; if they are denounced and proved guilty, they are to be punished, with this reservation, that whoever denies that he is a Christian and really proves it--that is, by worshiping our gods--even though he was under suspicion in the past, shall obtain pardon through repentance. But anonymously posted accusations ought to have no place in any prosecution. For this is both a dangerous kind of precedent and out of keeping with the spirit of our age.
The martyrs of Bithynia speak. KFkairosfocus
October 6, 2015
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LT, you of course know or should know every one of those minimal facts comes from multiple primary eyewitness lifetime sources passed down in good chain of custody or repository. Indeed, the best we have from antiquity. In the main they are supported by opposition forces, and/or are notorious by impact on world history. There is no reasonable doubt that these twelve minimal facts of history have been scrutinised as none other, often in extremely hostile ways. And of course, summary historical facts, save as stated directly by eyewitnesses are always conclusions from investigations. That does not prevent them from being accurate facts. Here, facts to moral certainty. Not one of these facts in and of itself is a miracle claim, but they report the conviction of the apostles and other martyrs sealed with their blood at the hands of judicial or mob murder. A sealing that continues to this very day as I just had to note. Rather than face them and face why they are so plausibly so as historical facts of unequalled strength, you have tried to demote them to mere opinions and beliefs. Never mind that the list is actually based on a survey of the range of scholarship across a generation in something like 3,000 sources on scholarship, across the spectrum. Let me again clip my summary on inherent reasonableness:
That a Messiah candidate was captured, tried and crucified — as Gamaliel hinted at — was effectively the death-knell for most such movements in Israel in the era of Roman control; to have to report such a fate was normally embarrassing and discrediting to the extreme in a shame-honour culture. The Jews of C1 Judaea wanted a victorious Greater David to defeat the Romans and usher in the day of ultimate triumph for Israel, not a crucified suffering servant. In the cases where a movement continued, the near relatives took up the mantle. That is facts 1 – 3 right there. Facts 10 – 12 are notorious. While some (it looks like about 25% of the survey of scholarship, from what I have seen) reject no 4, in fact it is hard to see a message about a resurrection in C1 that did not imply that the body was living again, as Wright discusses here. Facts 5 – 9 are again, pretty clearly grounded. So, the challenge is to explain this cluster or important subsets of it, without begging questions and without selective hyperskepticism. The old Deist objections (though sometimes renewed today) have deservedly fallen by the wayside.
Let me add a summary from an eyewitness relative to the criterion of embarrassment and truthfulness with a rhetorically massively disadvantageous case c 55 AD:
1 Cor 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. 18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.” 20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach[b] to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
Not, a man from a palace or a great school, but a Carpenter from a village that provided labour to Sepphoris. A Jew, and even within Judaism, from a despised backwater, from a town that even within the Galilee was looked down on. (Never mind, obscurity was sought for protection from demonstrated murderous powers, that family of blood, the Herods.) An itinerant homeless preacher dependent on support from a circle of women. With a circle of ordinary men as close followers. Viewed as a threat and dealt with decisively: a potential rebel or trigger nailed by Rome and accursed to Israel as hanged on a tree. To the Greeks, in the main not even at the near threshold of the schools of the Rhetors much less the Stoics or Epicureans. That should have been the end of the story. But, as Morison highlights, it was not, making the why that was not so, a supremely challenging point. Even, before we get to the millions transformed across 2,000 years:
[N]ow the peculiar thing . . . is that not only did [belief in Jesus’ resurrection as in part testified to by the empty tomb] spread to every member of the Party of Jesus of whom we have any trace, but they brought it to Jerusalem and carried it with inconceivable audacity into the most keenly intellectual centre of Judaea . . . and in the face of every impediment which a brilliant and highly organised camarilla could devise. And they won. Within twenty years the claim of these Galilean peasants had disrupted the Jewish Church and impressed itself upon every town on the Eastern littoral of the Mediterranean from Caesarea to Troas. In less than fifty years it had began to threaten the peace of the Roman Empire . . . . Why did it win? . . . . We have to account not only for the enthusiasm of its friends, but for the paralysis of its enemies and for the ever growing stream of new converts . . . When we remember what certain highly placed personages would almost certainly have given to have strangled this movement at its birth but could not – how one desperate expedient after another was adopted to silence the apostles, until that veritable bow of Ulysses, the Great Persecution, was tried and broke in pieces in their hands [the chief persecutor became the leading C1 Missionary/Apostle!] – we begin to realise that behind all these subterfuges and makeshifts there must have been a silent, unanswerable fact. [Who Moved the Stone, (Faber, 1971; nb. orig. pub. 1930), pp. 114 – 115.]
Ironically, your attempted dismissal is a back-handed compliment to the strength of the case. And, to the explanatory gap between the historic Christian understanding and the next "best" attempt. Wheel an tun an come again . . . KF PS: The martyrs of Umpqua stand in witness against those who have for decades sown contempt, slander and utterly unjustified blanket hostility to Christians, setting up a climate of such polarisation and demonisation that the madman is now hearing voices of permission to murder on sight. For shame!kairosfocus
October 6, 2015
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BA77, thanks. Indeed there comes a time and place for almost suicidal courage to stand. Which, is written into my name with martyr's blood. And this past week we saw some ordinary people in an ordinary town hitherto only known for fly fishing having to stand peacefully, one by one, for the truth of the gospel in the face of demonic hate, at the cost of their lives. KFkairosfocus
October 6, 2015
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KF (20), If you mean Habermas, those "minimal facts" are not facts, strictly speaking. A neutral observer will see it's self-evident that his facts are actually beliefs or conclusions. I will not go through any of the twelve beliefs but rather will say that none of them undermines or is undermined by my approach, which agrees that the Jesus character in the Gospels derives from at least one actual human being and that the Jesus narrative derives from some events that really happened. There is a good deal of agreement in our positions. Sly and the Family Stone, "Thank You(Falettinme Be Mice Elf Agin)"LarTanner
October 6, 2015
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Thanks kf. Here is one for you: Mandisa - Esther - Born For This - music video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxFCber4TDobornagain77
October 6, 2015
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BA77, this one is for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3wwWFsSlNQ KFkairosfocus
October 5, 2015
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LT, Trusting . . . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLJ7Hkx6YwM KFkairosfocus
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LT: More from Carlene D -- Holy . . . : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGuiMq2FcGk KFkairosfocus
October 5, 2015
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LT: Jamaica's gospel sweetheart, on standing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOe_rJa1Pks KFkairosfocus
October 5, 2015
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LT, Jamaica style: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYp7mp-JgbM KFkairosfocus
October 5, 2015
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LT, song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vjlpg9i2Bg KFkairosfocus
October 5, 2015
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LarTanner states:
I do agree with you that Christianity’s marketing program was the best the world had seen to date.
Well, while I agree that eternal life with our loved ones in the presence of almighty God is a mighty fine 'marketing program', I think persecution here and now in this life, as was witnessed recently at the school shooting, mitigates that eternal life 'marketing program' rather effectively so as to separate the sheep from the goats:
China on course to become ‘world’s most Christian nation’ within 15 years – 19 Apr 2014 Excerpt: By 2030, China’s total Christian population, including Catholics, would exceed 247 million, placing it above Mexico, Brazil and the United States as the largest Christian congregation in the world, he predicted. “Mao thought he could eliminate religion. He thought he had accomplished this,” Prof Yang said. “It’s ironic – they didn’t. They actually failed completely.” http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/10776023/China-on-course-to-become-worlds-most-Christian-nation-within-15-years.html Knowing our world: The three major reasons for persecution of Christians worldwide - Denyse O'Leary Excerpt: The world-wide picture is sobering. Pew Research Center, Newsweek, and The Economist all agree that Christians are the world’s most widely persecuted group. Marshall and team offer information about three quite different reasons for persecution by different types of regimes (pp. 9–11): First, there is post-Communist persecution, following the collapse of Communism in the late 1980s, where the regimes " … have since retreated to an onerous policy of registration, supervision, and control. Those who will not be controlled are sent to prison or labor camps, or simply held, abused, and sometimes tortured." The most intense persecutor is the still Communist (not post-Communist) regime, North Korea (pp. 9–10). There, “Christians are executed or sent to prison camps for lengthy terms for such crimes as the mere possession of a Bible.” Second, in some countries, “Hindu or Buddhist religious movements equate their religion with the nature and meaning of their country itself.” They persecute minority tribes as well as religions (pp. 10–11). These countries include Sri Lanka, Nepal, and Bhutan. Third, of course the Muslim world where "Even though the remaining Communist countries persecute the most Christians, it is in the Muslim world where persecution of Christians is now most widespread, intense, and, ominously, increasing. Extremist Muslims are expanding their presence and sometimes exporting their repression of all other faiths. … Even ancient churches, such as the two-thousand-year-old Chaldean and Assyrian churches of Iraq and the Coptic churches of Egypt, are under intense threat at this time. (p. 11)." http://www.thebestschools.org/bestschoolsblog/2013/03/30/knowing-world-major-reasons-persecution-christians-worldwide/ Index of persecution of Christians in countries worldwide 2015 http://www.statista.com/statistics/271002/persecution-of-christians-worldwide/
Verse:
Matthew 13:5-6 "Others fell on the rocky places, where they did not have much soil; and immediately they sprang up, because they had no depth of soil. "But when the sun had risen, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
bornagain77
October 5, 2015
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LT, start with the twelve minimal facts. KFkairosfocus
October 5, 2015
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Strange that our modern dating system (calendar) is based on the existence of a person that didn't exist.Virgil Cain
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Andre, Early Christians had several different views/interpretations of Jesus, from not divine at all to fully divine. The Gospel of Judas considers Jesus an alien from Barbelo. I am interested in where it's dais there will be no sex in heaven. I'm just unfamiliar with which text mentions this, and when the text might have been written. I do agree with you that Christianity's marketing program was the best the world had seen to date.LarTanner
October 5, 2015
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Lartanner... The Christians of that time worshipped him as God. They noted his miracles. The Roman historians of the time records that the crazy Christians worshipped him as God and his enemies accused him of being a sorcerer that got his powers from the devil. The historical accounts and the hostile accounts matter of factly corroborate the Gospels. I'll tell you why I consider the bible account true. The Bible says there will be no sex in heaven. Just imagine you are trying to sell a new religion and your punchline to a bunch of males is No sex in heaven... Don't think it will sell well unless it is true. Which man do you know in this universe that is going to willingly give up sex? Hell has a better chance of freezing over. Literally.Andre
October 5, 2015
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Re.: "I'm sure there's a kernel of truth there." I assume most people agree with you; the real point of contention is how big that kernel actually is. Increasingly more people seem willing to accept that the kernel might be pretty small and that the gospel stories, Pauline epistles, and ensuing Christological doctrines are exactly what they appear to be (with respect to the person of Jesus): imaginative interpretations of events (some real) and fact, and of their precursor interpretations. The neutral observer has no issue with the Christian Jesus deriving from an historical individual or from a composite of individuals. Neither does the neutral observer discount the possibility that the texts bundled together as the New Testament are entirely true: such a person weighs and considers the entire spectrum and hopes to locate the truth along it.LarTanner
October 5, 2015
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Bob As a Christian I am very aware of the fact that the Gospels could be biased. But he is affirmed by non bias sources and absolutely acknowledged by sources hostile to him. Three very different sources corroborate his existence absolutely, thus I have no problem with the claims of the Historical Jesus. To deny he ever existed is ludicrous.Andre
October 5, 2015
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