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Sean Carroll: “Nowadays, when a more scientific worldview has triumphed and everyone knows that God doesn’t exist . . . ” — really?

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Carroll, here, was responding to a Weekly Standard cover article on the reactions to philosopher Nagel’s publication of Mind and Cosmos: Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature is Almost Certainly False :

What I find particularly interesting in the captioned clip is the laudatory reference to “a more Scientific WORLDVIEW” which is immediately problematic, as worldviews are matters of philosophical points of view and linked cultural agendas. That is, they are categorically distinct from science in any proper sense.

A clue for what is really meant comes from what immediately follows: “and everyone knows that God doesn’t exist.” Really, and how can science actually establish such a thing, especially in a world with literally billions of theists, many being reasonably educated and informed? Plainly, what is actually implied is that in the academy and among the post-Christian Western chattering classes, evolutionary materialistic scientism is a dominant and in fact domineering ideology.

One that, in fact, rather inconveniently has had a 100+ year track record of not just marginalising, silencing or expelling critics or doubters, but a body count northwards of 100 millions. (So much for the snide characterisation of the West’s Christian heritage by the Torquemada standard. [Cf. here on in context on the sins and blessings of Christendom.])

We could make reference to a well known cat out of the bag remark in NYRB by Richard Lewontin on how a priori materialism has been imposed on science, or the like. However, that is liable to simply invite troll rants, let the link stand for those who need to re-familiarise themselves with the record.

Instead, let us simply note that in the captioned, Carroll more than amply confirms the point regarding the cat Lewontin let out of the bag. Where, too, scientism — the notion that, roughly, evolutionary materialism dominated, Big-S “Science” is “the only begetter of truth [and thus, knowledge]” — is immediately self-refuting. For, this claim is a claim about philosophy that tries to discredit such claims. Unfortunately, that is not going to help those trapped in the evo mat cave escape their bonds and delusions. The issue is how to move the Overton Window:

Of course, we have already taken step 1, by headlining and briefly exposing immediately fatal errors on the public record for one of the better known spokesmen for evolutionary materialistic scientism [= “naturalism,” more or less].

What can we do for step 2?

We have to look at warrant for theism (at least at intro to 101 level), and in my view a good place to start is an article responding to a dismissive article that popped up here in the Caribbean about a year ago. Here we go:

>>Over the years, many millions have met and been transformed through meeting God in the face of Christ. This includes countless Jamaicans [and many other people across the Caribbean and wider world]. It also includes many famed scholars, eminent scientists and leaders of powerful reformations. Logically, if just one of these millions has actually been reconciled with God through Christ, God must be real and the gospel must be true. (Where, if instead so many are deeply delusional, that would undermine the rational credibility of the human mind.)

However, for some years now various voices have tried to dismissively question God, the gospel and Christians. So, it is not unexpected to see Mr Gordon Robinson writing in the Gleaner recently (on Sunday, August 26, 2018),  about alleged “dangerous dogma promulgated by the Church and its many brainwashed surrogates,” “perverse propaganda spread by Christian churches,” “sycophants” and the like.

Along the way, he managed to ask a pivotal question: “Who/what is God?”

Regrettably, he also implied outright fraud by church leaders: “Either the Church has NO CLUE about who/what God really is, or it deliberately misrepresents God’s essence in order to frighten people into becoming church members and tithing. Nothing else makes sense.”

Fig 1 DNA, Showing the Genetic Code (HT ResearchGate)

In fact, a simple Internet search might give a better answer. For, thinkers such as a Thomas Aquinas or an Augustine of Hippo or a Paul of Tarsus or even a Wayne Grudem or a William Lane Craig have long since credibly addressed the idea of God and systematic theology at a little more sophisticated level than Sunday School lessons or Internet Atheist web sites. In so doing, they have made responsible cases that rise above the level of caricatures of the art on the Sistine Chapel’s ceiling.

We may begin with Paul in Romans 1, 57 AD: “Rom 1:19 . . . what can be known about God is plain to [people], because God has shown it to them. 20 For [God’s] invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So [people] are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.”  [ESV]

Here, one of the top dozen minds of our civilisation first points out how our morally governed interior life and what we see in the world all around jointly call us to God our Creator. But, too often we suppress the force of that inner testimony and outer evidence. (This, predictably, leads to unsound thinking and destructive deeds stemming from benumbed consciences and en-darkened minds.)

For one, consider how for sixty years now we have known that the DNA in the cells of our bodies has in it complex, alphanumeric, algorithmic code that is executed through molecular nanotechnology to build proteins, the workhorses of biological life. That’s why Sir Francis Crick wrote to his son Michael on March 19, 1953 that “we believe that the DNA is a code. That is, the order of bases (the letters) makes one gene different from another gene (just as one page of print is different from another).”

Crick’s letter

Figure 2: Crick’s March 19, 1953 letter, p. 5 with a highlight (Fair use)

Yes, alphanumeric code (so, language!), algorithms (so, purpose!), i.e. intelligent design of life from the first living cell on. Including, us. No wonder the dean of the so-called New Atheists was forced to admit that Biology studies complicated things that give a strong appearance of design. 

1947 saw the advent of the transistor age, allowing storage of a single bit of information in a tiny electronic wonder. We have since advanced to computers based on silicon chips comparable in size to a thumb-nail, with millions of transistors. These microchips and support machinery process many millions of instructions per second and have storage capacities of many gigabytes. Coded electronic communication signals routinely go across millions of miles through the solar system.  Every one of these devices and systems required careful design by highly educated engineers, scientists and programmers. The living, self-replicating cell’s sophistication dwarfs all of these; yet we question the all-knowing God, the author of life.

A nerve cell

Next, Mr. Robinson and others inevitably appeal to our known duty to truth, right reasoning, fairness, prudent judgement, etc.  But, where did that inner moral law (testified to by our consciences) come from? Surely, it is not a delusion; or else responsible, freely rational discussion would collapse into nihilistic chaos: might and manipulation (= “power and propaganda”) make ‘right,’ ‘rights,’ ‘justice,’ ‘truth,’ ‘knowledge’ etc. Instead, our conscience-guarded hearts and minds clearly show the Creator’s design that we freely live by the light and law of truth and right.

Such considerations – and many more – point us to the only serious candidate for the source of reality that can bridge IS and OUGHT: the inherently good (and wise) Creator God, a necessary and maximally great being. Who is fully worthy of our loyalty and of humble, responsible, reasonable service through doing the good. Then, we may readily draw out the classic understanding of God described in scripture and studied in systematic theology: all-good, eternal, creator and Lord with sound knowledge and full capability to work out his good purposes in the right way at the right time. [Cf. Grudem, at Web Archive, here.]

Moreover, what we most of all need to know about God is taught by Jesus the Christ, recorded in scripture within eye-witness lifetime then accurately handed down to us for 2000 years now, at fearsome cost: the blood of the martyrs. Martyrs, who had but one incentive: that they directly knew and must peacefully stand by the eternal truth – cost what it will. They refused to be frightened by dungeon, fire or sword, much less mere rhetoric. Why would thousands die horribly to promote a known lie?

[I add, Strobel on the Case for Christ:]

Their record is that Christ is the express image of his Father, Logos – Cosmos-ordering Reason himself, prophesied Messiah, the Saviour who in love died for us on a cross. He rose from the dead as Lord with 500 eye-witnesses, precisely fulfilling over three hundred prophecies that were long since recorded in the Old Testament. (See esp. Isaiah 52:13 – 53:12, c. 700 BC.) He ascended to his Father in the presence of the apostles. He shall return as eternal Judge, before whom we must all account. (Yes, professing and “backsliding” Christians too.) The Bible also records Jesus’ prayer for us: “this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and [“thy Son”] Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent.” [John 17:1- 5, cf. 3:16.]

That is the truth witnessed by the church, whether it was 33 AD in Jerusalem before an angry Sanhedrin, or 50 AD before the laughing Athenians (who had built a public monument to their ignorance of God), or today . . .>>

So, Mr Carroll, no, it is not so that “everyone knows that God doesn’t exist.” Indeed, just the opposite is true: arguably, millions, having met and been transformed by God, know God. They don’t just know about him.

Perhaps, it is time for a more sober-minded discussion on the roots of reality. END

F/N: For reference, I attach, first on turning back at the brink:

Next, on the Overton Window (vs Plato’s cave of manipulated shadow-shows:

Then, on a model of key spheres and sources of influence:

Then, on a model of political possibilities, drawing out the significance of Constitutional Democracy:

U/d b for clarity, nb Nil

Also, on law:

Noting Augustine and Aquinas:

And Aquinas on law in general:

Comments
Why should anyone care what anyone else thinks, JAD? But anyway, that's a typical reply by you, so I think a strong case can be made that there is no reason for me to care what you think. Therefore, a) we shouldn't interact with each other, as you obviously have no interest in any possibly constructive discussion, and b) I should ignore anything you have to say about me.hazel
October 4, 2019
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Why should I, or anyone else, care at all what you believe and think, Hazel?john_a_designer
October 4, 2019
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I certainly believe that human beings are morally fallible, and have no idea why JAD thinks I don't.hazel
October 4, 2019
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It is very unfair to us who have been commenting off and on here for 10+ years to have to continuously deal with trolls, drive-bys and sock puppets who have absolutely no obligation to be honest and truthful. But apparently, that is what Seversky believes. He even cites a couple examples from the Bible that he thinks supports that view: “The midwives deliberately deceived Pharaoh—and God appears to reward them for it.” (Exod. 1:17–21) “Rahab communicated a falsehood to protect the spies—and is apparently applauded for it.” (Josh. 2:1–7; cf. Heb. 11:31). https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/how-materialist-fundamentalists-are-like-islamic-fundamentalists/#comment-684699 Barry gives a response @ #2 and #9. I give a very succinct answer @ #10.
I think there is a difference between what I call “rule absolutism” and moral objectivism. You don’t have to accept rule absolutism to be a moral objectisivist. Indeed, I would argue that morality is not based on some written code but on our moral conscience which has been written on the hearts of all human beings by the Creator. See Paul’s comments about this is Romans chapter 2.
https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/how-materialist-fundamentalists-are-like-islamic-fundamentalists/#comment-684758 Of course, Paul goes on to argue in Romans 3 that we are morally fallible. We don’t always do what we know is right. (Which is why we need a written code or laws. I think it was James Madison who said if men were angels they wouldn't need laws or government.)
While there may be extraordinary circumstance which force exceptions to the so-called rules, 99.9% of the time we are obligated to tell the truth. There are some strong pragmatic arguments that confirm this truth about Truth. Telling truth is critical to the functioning of society. Consider how important it is when it comes to finance and business, government and law enforcement as well as personal relationships. Indeed, if you a conscious human being with a conscience you know this is true because it is self-evidently true. However, materialistic atheists (like Ruse, Dawkins, Dennett, Provine…Rosenberg [and Sean Carroll] etc.) have no basis for either epistemological or moral truth. There is no capital-T Truth according to them (I can provide their quotes if you wish.) But how can you trust someone who doesn’t believe there is such a thing as moral truth? Morality is useless unless there is some kind of real and binding interpersonal moral obligations. Obligations are not subjective personal preferences. For example, we are obligated to tell the truth whether it advances our self-interest or not. Obligations also demand that there is some kind of interpersonal moral standard which more than one person MUST admit is the right, correct and true standard. The materialist atheist has no reason to accept such a standard. So what reason would anyone have to believe that he (or she) is able to treat other honestly and fairly? How. for example, can you have an honest and fair discussion on-line about morality if you don’t feel you have a personal obligation to be truthful? I don’t see how you can or ever could.
https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/how-materialist-fundamentalists-are-like-islamic-fundamentalists/#comment-684864 I succinctly summarize my argument @ #14:
[T]he underlying concept or key question is this: Is morality based on a set of rules that are written down somewhere OR are “the rules” based on a moral standard that transcends space, time and culture? An “objective” and honest look at human history strongly suggests it’s the latter not the former. For example, no one today would defend the U.S. Supreme Court’s dreadful 1857 Dred Scott decision as being morally just (it was effectively overturned by the 13th and 14th amendment after a civil war that took 600,000 lives.) In other words, even the so called Supreme Court is fallible. Of course, that raises the question what is the ultimate source of the transcendent moral standard?
Again, as human beings we are all morally fallible. That’s not an opinion. It’s the self-evident and honest Truth. But apparently Ed and Hazel don’t think so.john_a_designer
October 4, 2019
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hazel:
Ok, God exists. Now what?What are your practical ideas for reforming civilization.
Get people to listen to God's Words, duh.
That is the question Ed is asking:
Is Ed too stupid to ask it?ET
October 4, 2019
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Ed George:
Obviously you would criminalize abortion, not that this would stop abortion.
Murder is already criminalized. Obviously people are just stupid and will end up doing whatever they want.ET
October 4, 2019
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I retract post 53, as I know it is pointless to ask. Good luck, Ed.hazel
October 4, 2019
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Ok, God exists. Now what? What are your practical ideas for reforming civilization. That is the question Ed is asking: why is it a "distraction" to ask it when you spend thousands of words telling us how bad things are?hazel
October 4, 2019
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EG, your distractions are over, you have demonstrated that you have no credibility as you cannot cease from enabling holocaust. Further, you have yet to show that you have an adequate worldview basis for moral government and sound law (starting with, moral government of reasoning through the built-in law of our responsibly, rationally free minds). [The just linked also outlines the worldview, policy framework and culture rescue context of the needed reformation -- something I have put on the table for years so your projections of imagined Christofascist tyranny and "right wing" theocracy have no merit to the point of being snidely defamatory by way of setting up a strawman target. Shame on you!] It is clearly established that the 1960's mark a break in our civilisation, the point where it failed and can only recover through profound reformation that resolves our guilt of the river of innocent blood of 800+ million unborn children, marking the worst holocaust in history -- a holocaust we are continuing to enable to this very day. That is ended, guilty as charged. Now, the focus returns to that which you have strained every nerve to distract from, once I drew attention a day ago to the telling silence of inveterate objectors. Again, cat out of the bag by Sean Carroll: “Nowadays, when a more scientific worldview has triumphed and everyone knows that God doesn’t exist . . . ” — really? Your answer is ________, and your response to how this abundantly corroborates concerns over Lewontin's, the US NSTA-NAS, etc endorsement of lab coat clad imposition of evolutionary materialistic scientism is: _______ The silence so far speaks, tellingly. KF PS: Just for record, here is Lewontin's notorious cat out of the bag moment:
. . . to put a correct [--> Just who here presume to cornering the market on truth and so demand authority to impose?] view of the universe into people's heads
[==> as in, "we" the radically secularist elites have cornered the market on truth, warrant and knowledge, making "our" "consensus" the yardstick of truth . . . where of course "view" is patently short for WORLDVIEW . . . and linked cultural agenda . . . ]
we must first get an incorrect view out [--> as in, if you disagree with "us" of the secularist elite you are wrong, irrational and so dangerous you must be stopped, even at the price of manipulative indoctrination of hoi polloi] . . . the problem is to get them [= hoi polloi] to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world [--> "explanations of the world" is yet another synonym for WORLDVIEWS; the despised "demon[ic]" "supernatural" being of course an index of animus towards ethical theism and particularly the Judaeo-Christian faith tradition], the demons that exist only in their imaginations,
[ --> as in, to think in terms of ethical theism is to be delusional, justifying "our" elitist and establishment-controlling interventions of power to "fix" the widespread mental disease]
and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth
[--> NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]
. . . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists [--> "we" are the dominant elites], it is self-evident
[--> actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . . and in fact it is evolutionary materialism that is readily shown to be self-refuting]
that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality [--> = all of reality to the evolutionary materialist], and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test [--> i.e. an assertion that tellingly reveals a hostile mindset, not a warranted claim] . . . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us [= the evo-mat establishment] to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [--> another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [--> i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door . . . [--> irreconcilable hostility to ethical theism, already caricatured as believing delusionally in imaginary demons]. [Lewontin, Billions and billions of Demons, NYRB Jan 1997,cf. here. And, if you imagine this is "quote-mined" I invite you to read the fuller annotated citation here.]
That is the clear, underlying ideological context for Mr Carroll's foolish, ill-advised knowledge claim. A claim that fails to address the impact of our moral government combined with the logic of being implication of a finitely remote, necessary being root of reality and source of all worlds. As a reminder, I clip 32 above, documenting what you would duck by using red herring tactics that in the end only serve to enable the continuing rivers of innocent blood shed through the abortion holocaust:
we can look at Mr Carroll’s remarks as reflective of a common feeling among the so-called progressivist elites. It drips with contempt towards the benighted who imagine they can know what “WE” know does not exist — which, as God is a serious candidate necessary being — implies that they think God is impossible of being. A serious NB candidate will either be impossible as a square circle is impossible or else it will be actual, as part of framework for any world to be. And that burden of warrant has never been met.* Carroll’s assertion reflects ignorance of philosophy, which of course such often despise once they swallow scientism, and that ignorance comes back like a boomerang. It is time to call the bluff. KF * PS: Yes, I imply that we have every good reason to see God as credibly possible of being, and therefore actual by force of serious candidacy to be a necessary being. Your credible alternative candidate for a world-source and world framing root of being capable of soundly grounding morally governed, rational, responsible, significantly free creatures is ______ and your warrant for said is _________ . Where, your grounds for impossibility of God are ____ or else your grounds that he is not a serious candidate NB are _______ .
kairosfocus
October 4, 2019
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KF
At this point, the only thing that can work is a profound reformation, but that is precisely what every muscle and sinew of the radical secularists is straining to block.
But I don’t think I have heard what you think the specifics of this reformation would be. Obviously you would criminalize abortion, not that this would stop abortion. Would you criminalize homosexual acts? Contraceptives? Sex for pleasure? Questioning the Bible? I’m really not sure what you want to see happen.Ed George
October 4, 2019
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F/N2: if you want it in shorter terms, here is Jesus of Nazareth, speaking to the self-imagined leading lights of his day, c 30 AD:
Matt 16:1 Now the Pharisees and Sadducees came up, and testing Jesus [to get something to use against Him], they asked Him to show them a sign from heaven [which would support His divine authority]. 2 But He replied to them,
“[a]When it is evening, you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is red.’ 3 And in the morning, ‘It will be stormy today, for the sky is red and has a threatening look.’ You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but cannot interpret the signs of the times? 4 An evil and [morally] unfaithful generation craves a [miraculous] sign; but no sign will be given to it, except the sign of [the prophet] Jonah.”
Then He left them and went away. [AMP]
How willfully blind we are to the patent, glaring warning signs of our times! And again, the prophet Isaiah, 700+ years before that:
Isa 5:18 Woe (judgment is coming) to those who drag along wickedness with cords of falsehood, And sin as if with cart ropes [towing their own punishment]; 19 Who say, “Let Him move speedily, let Him expedite His work [His promised vengeance], so that we may see it; And let the purpose of the Holy One of Israel approach And come to pass, so that we may know it!” 20 Woe (judgment is coming) to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter! 21 Woe (judgment is coming) to those who are wise in their own eyes And clever and shrewd in their own sight! 22 Woe (judgment is coming) to those who are heroes at drinking wine And men of strength in mixing intoxicating drinks, 23 Who justify the wicked and acquit the guilty for a bribe, And take away the rights of those who are in the right! 24 Therefore, as the tongue of fire consumes the stubble [from straw] And the dry grass collapses into the flame, So their root will become like rot and their blossom blow away like fine dust; Because they have rejected the law of the Lord of hosts And despised and discarded the word of the Holy One of Israel.
We cannot say we were not warned long since. KFkairosfocus
October 4, 2019
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F/N: As for the rhetorical and agit prop antics we see being mindlessly echoed and amplified all across our civilisation [with the USA in the shameful and utterly foolish lead], Plato also warned against such in his parable of the ship of state. For, Plato’s Socrates spoke to this sort of situation, long since, in the ship of state parable in The Republic, Bk VI:
>>[Soc.] I perceive, I said, that you are vastly amused at having plunged me into such a hopeless discussion; but now hear the parable, and then you will be still more amused at the meagreness of my imagination: for the manner in which the best men are treated in their own States is so grievous that no single thing on earth is comparable to it; and therefore, if I am to plead their cause, I must have recourse to fiction, and put together a figure made up of many things, like the fabulous unions of goats and stags which are found in pictures. Imagine then a fleet or a ship in which there is a captain [–> often interpreted, ship’s owner] who is taller and stronger than any of the crew, but he is a little deaf and has a similar infirmity in sight, and his knowledge of navigation is not much better. [= The people own the community and in the mass are overwhelmingly strong, but are ill equipped on the whole to guide, guard and lead it] The sailors are quarrelling with one another about the steering – every one is of opinion that he has a right to steer [= selfish ambition to rule and dominate], though he has never learned the art of navigation and cannot tell who taught him or when he learned, and will further assert that it cannot be taught, and they are ready to cut in pieces any one who says the contrary. They throng about the captain, begging and praying him to commit the helm to them [–> kubernetes, steersman, from which both cybernetics and government come in English]; and if at any time they do not prevail, but others are preferred to them, they kill the others or throw them overboard [ = ruthless contest for domination of the community], and having first chained up the noble captain’s senses with drink or some narcotic drug [ = manipulation and befuddlement, cf. the parable of the cave], they mutiny and take possession of the ship and make free with the stores; thus, eating and drinking, they proceed on their voyage in such a manner as might be expected of them [–> Cf here Luke’s subtle case study in Ac 27]. Him who is their partisan and cleverly aids them in their plot for getting the ship out of the captain’s hands into their own whether by force or persuasion [–> Nihilistic will to power on the premise of might and manipulation making ‘right’ ‘truth’ ‘justice’ ‘rights’ etc], they compliment with the name of sailor, pilot, able seaman, and abuse the other sort of man, whom they call a good-for-nothing; but that the true pilot must pay attention to the year and seasons and sky and stars and winds, and whatever else belongs to his art, if he intends to be really qualified for the command of a ship, and that he must and will be the steerer, whether other people like or not-the possibility of this union of authority with the steerer’s art has never seriously entered into their thoughts or been made part of their calling. Now in vessels which are in a state of mutiny and by sailors who are mutineers, how will the true pilot be regarded? Will he not be called by them a prater, a star-gazer, a good-for-nothing? [Ad.] Of course, said Adeimantus. [Soc.] Then you will hardly need, I said, to hear the interpretation of the figure, which describes the true philosopher in his relation to the State[ --> here we see Plato's philosoppher-king emerging]; for you understand already. [Ad.] Certainly. [Soc.] Then suppose you now take this parable to the gentleman who is surprised at finding that philosophers have no honour in their cities; explain it to him and try to convince him that their having honour would be far more extraordinary. [Ad.] I will. [Soc.] Say to him, that, in deeming the best votaries of philosophy to be useless to the rest of the world, he is right; but also tell him to attribute their uselessness to the fault of those who will not use them, and not to themselves. The pilot should not humbly beg the sailors to be commanded by him –that is not the order of nature; neither are ‘the wise to go to the doors of the rich’ –the ingenious author of this saying told a lie –but the truth is, that, when a man is ill, whether he be rich or poor, to the physician he must go, and he who wants to be governed, to him who is able to govern. The ruler who is good for anything ought not to beg his subjects to be ruled by him [ --> down this road lies the modern solution: a sound, well informed people will seek sound leaders, who will not need to manipulate or bribe or worse, and such a ruler will in turn be checked by the soundness of the people, cf. US DoI, 1776]; although the present governors of mankind are of a different stamp; they may be justly compared to the mutinous sailors, and the true helmsmen to those who are called by them good-for-nothings and star-gazers. [Ad.] Precisely so, he said. [Soc] For these reasons, and among men like these, philosophy, the noblest pursuit of all, is not likely to be much esteemed by those of the opposite faction; not that the greatest and most lasting injury is done to her by her opponents, but by her own professing followers, the same of whom you suppose the accuser to say, that the greater number of them are arrant rogues, and the best are useless; in which opinion I agreed [--> even among the students of the sound state (here, political philosophy and likely history etc.), many are of unsound motivation and intent, so mere education is not enough, character transformation is critical]. [Ad.] Yes. [Soc.] And the reason why the good are useless has now been explained? [Ad.] True. [Soc.] Then shall we proceed to show that the corruption of the majority is also unavoidable, and that this is not to be laid to the charge of philosophy any more than the other? [Ad.] By all means. [Soc.] And let us ask and answer in turn, first going back to the description of the gentle and noble nature.[ -- > note the character issue] Truth, as you will remember, was his leader, whom he followed always and in all things [ --> The spirit of truth as a marker]; failing in this, he was an impostor, and had no part or lot in true philosophy [--> the spirit of truth is a marker, for good or ill] . . . >>
(There is more than an echo of this in Acts 27, a real world case study. [Luke, a physician, was an educated Greek with a taste for subtle references.] This blog post, on soundness in policy, will also help) Again, the lessons of sound history were bought with blood and tears. Those who neglect, reject, refuse to learn and heed them doom themselves to pay in the same terrible coin over and over again. KFkairosfocus
October 3, 2019
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EG, your distractions and strawman tactics continue, proof positive that you have no cogent answer to the central issue on the table as summed up by Sean Carroll, ideological imposition of atheism dressed up in a lab coat and claiming to be knowledge: “Nowadays, when a more scientific worldview has triumphed and everyone knows that God doesn’t exist . . . ” — really? As for your strawman, maybe it has not registered that by refusing to acknowledge and address the central evil of our time, that across the 1960's our civilisation was moved to the point that in the 1970's it undertook the worst -- and ongoing -- holocaust in history, 800+ million (with another million victims per week) you make yourself into a poster-child of the problem of absurd moral blindness and rampant evil demonstrating that our civilisation has failed, decisively failed. There is a right term for this, echoing the indictment of Germany by the White Rose martyrs: enabling of holocaust. You therefore show that you have no credibility to soundly address any matter like this. At this point, the only thing that can work is a profound reformation, but that is precisely what every muscle and sinew of the radical secularists is straining to block. The likely consequences are sobering, starting with the leading nation in the civilisation, the USA. Which, is already in low kinetic, 4th generation civil war with emphasis on street theatre, media amplified agit prop [that makes darkness seem light and light darkness] and linked lawfare that is currently wrecking principles of sound government and those of the civil peace of justice (such as protection of the innocent, starting with life but extending to freedom of conscience, expression and the right to innocent reputation etc, including the matter of bankrupting process as a way of crushing the targetted, whose reputations have been trashed . . . and including media amplified 4 am Cheka- style SWAT team arrests etc . . . ); leading to fatal disaffection. Much of that, pivoting on sustaining the holocaust of our living posterity in the womb; where mass blood guilt like this is infinitely worse than the shadow of even racism -- a point that is routinely suppressed. For shame. Where will we go to cleanse ourselves from the rivers of innocent blood we have shed through the abortion holocaust? A holocaust in material part enabled through the amorality and implicit nihilism of evolutionary materialism, scientism and the implication of radical relativisation of truth, knowledge, law, justice, doing the right. So, the willful blindness we see is utterly, utterly telling. KF PS: And it is not as though we were not warned. Again, here is Plato in The Laws, Bk X, 2350+ years ago:
Ath [in The Laws, Bk X 2,350+ ya]. . . .[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that fire and water, and earth and air [i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art . . . [such that] all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only [ --> that is, evolutionary materialism is ancient and would trace all things to blind chance and mechanical necessity] . . . . [Thus, they hold] that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.-
[ --> Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT, leading to an effectively arbitrary foundation only for morality, ethics and law: accident of personal preference, the ebbs and flows of power politics, accidents of history and and the shifting sands of manipulated community opinion driven by "winds and waves of doctrine and the cunning craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming . . . " cf a video on Plato's parable of the cave; from the perspective of pondering who set up the manipulative shadow-shows, why.]
These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might,
[ --> Evolutionary materialism -- having no IS that can properly ground OUGHT -- leads to the promotion of amorality on which the only basis for "OUGHT" is seen to be might (and manipulation: might in "spin") . . . ]
and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [ --> Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality "naturally" leads to continual contentions and power struggles influenced by that amorality at the hands of ruthless power hungry nihilistic agendas], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is,to live in real dominion over others [ --> such amoral and/or nihilistic factions, if they gain power, "naturally" tend towards ruthless abuse and arbitrariness . . . they have not learned the habits nor accepted the principles of mutual respect, justice, fairness and keeping the civil peace of justice, so they will want to deceive, manipulate and crush -- as the consistent history of radical revolutions over the past 250 years so plainly shows again and again], and not in legal subjection to them [--> nihilistic will to power not the spirit of justice and lawfulness].
kairosfocus
October 3, 2019
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KF
I have never spoken to a golden age,...
That is true, but you clearly believe that civilization before the 60s was better than it is now. It is this assertion that I disagree with. We live longer, infant mortality is lower, there is no state or western country where inter-racial marriages are illegal, women can no longer be legally prevented from jobs, hitting and raping your wife is now illegal, you can no longer be jailed for having sex with someone of the same sex, teens who get pregnant are no longer required to leave their schools, women now have access to birth control, you can no longer be jailed for blasphemy, blacks can now eat in any restaurant and don’t have to sit at the back of the bus. The same cannot be said for any time before the 60s.Ed George
October 3, 2019
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Let us refresh our memories, from the title: >>Sean Carroll: “Nowadays, when a more scientific worldview has triumphed and everyone knows that God doesn’t exist . . . ” — really?>> This is a serious issue of civilisational import. In the OP, I answered Carroll. Let us take it for granted that UD is always under hostile, obsessive scrutiny, so the sort of rhetoric of distraction above speaks volumes.kairosfocus
October 3, 2019
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EG, a strawman is a case of a red herring. I have never spoken to a golden age, but I have spoken to a point where our civilisation failed. Zooming back a little, the British Empire similarly failed in the thirty one years from 1914 to 1945. Was that Empire ideal? No. But did its failure carry sobering consequences, yes. Again, across the 60's our civilisation failed, and the abortion holocaust of 800+ millions and mounting at another million per week is the strongest single proof of it. So is the refusal to face it and acknowledge that A is A. That also resets your credibility to judge of such issues to nil. A genuine litmus test, failed. Likewise, it is almost amusing to see the studious avoidance of the pivotal issue put on the table through the title, much less the OP. Fail, again. KFkairosfocus
October 3, 2019
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Hazel
Good points, Ed.
Thank you. Where KF sees a decline in civilization I see a civilization fighting to better itself. Obviously there are going to be some bumps along the way as we learn how to deal with new technology or the granting of new rights. But if you don’t try, you don’t improve. KF’s idealized civilization never existed, and never will. The terrible sixties that KF speaks of was also the birth of real equality for women, of the civil rights movement, of not blindly accepting what the government, or the priest, was saying. I would much rather live in today’s society, in spite of its many problems, than return to one where men could legally rape their wives, where women who were raped were “asking for it”, where homosexuals were persecuted and often prosecuted, where there were institutional and family cover ups of pedophilia, where women were often pressured into having sex in order to get or keep a job.Ed George
October 3, 2019
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EG, have you forgotten the fundamental transformations or even "revolutions" that happened as the dominant baby boom generation came of age? This was the time when the so-called sexual/free love revolution happened, and things that went with it. It was when the push that culminated in the abortion holocaust happened. It was when the crimes of Stalin et al were forgotten (and those of Mao were studiously ignored). It was when the geostrategic tide of WW3 -- the so called cold war -- shifted to the Communists, leading in the next decade to a massive surge in the global S that looked un-stoppable until John Paul II, Blonie Fields, Thatcher and Reagan came together in a critical mass as we went into the 80's. It was the point when existentialism was king. It was the point where the elites of our civilisation began the radical secularist atheistically driven push, taking advantage of a new, powerful mass broadcast medium, television . . . especially colour television with several dominant channels; the point when post-literacy entered. They rode piggyback on unrest over Vietnam to try to discredit the traditional order. And much more. It was the obvious kairos, and we can now see that at that juncture our civilisation failed. Today, we reap the consequences. We were not born yesterday -- I have to flag the obvious attempt to distract us at that level: history, cultural agendas and worldviews, geostrategics, major spiritual trends and turning points. Likewise, the distractor from the cat out the bag admission by Carroll and the answer that pivots on logic of being, roots of reality and the crucial fact that reality includes morally governed creatures. KFkairosfocus
October 3, 2019
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Good points, Ed.hazel
October 3, 2019
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EG, trends obviously picked up across the 1960’s.
I think you might be falsely extrapolating an increase in reporting to an increase in actual incidents. For example, pedophilia is most frequently perpetrated by a family member or a person in some level of authority (eg teacher, scout leader, priest, etc). Before the 60s and 70s, when these crimes were found out, the police were almost never called. The family, or church, or scouting, would make efforts to cover it up. If you have any real evidence that pedophilia, or the manipulation and pressuring of young women into having sex is actually increasing, I would love to see it. Weinstein just did what movie producers have been doing since the advent of talkies. It is heard about more today because women in society have been fighting for, and getting, more power, and society has started to listen. The increased reporting of these things is a sign that society is no longer tolerating the abuse of women, not a sign of a decline of civilization.Ed George
October 3, 2019
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I've been here for almost a year, off and on, but mostly off now, FWIW. I am sure it is easy to see that I am me and not one of those other two people.hazel
October 3, 2019
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Folks, a better focus. If ever there were utter nothing, such would forever obtain. If a world is, something always was, causally adequate to account for it. Including, rational, free, responsible, morally governed creatures. This is an independent, necessary being world root of moral character and adequate in knowledge and power to be source and sustainer of a world. In this context, the better suggestion is that God is a serious candidate to be that world root, and that there is no good reason to hold him impossible of being. That insight dramatically shifts the credibility of the view that God is. KFkairosfocus
October 3, 2019
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Riddle me this, riddle me that, guess me this riddle and p'rhaps not: If you clone a horse, what is the relationship between the two horses?kairosfocus
October 3, 2019
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If my memory is serving me correctly Ed George, Brother Brian and Hazel all showed up here at UD about the same time. When was that? Maybe Ed, if he is really on the up and up, can tell us. Can anyone else remember?john_a_designer
October 3, 2019
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Same horse, only the mane has changed. :DET
October 3, 2019
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See https://uncommondescent.com/philosophy/why-is-there-something-instead-of-nothing-being-logic-first-principles-24/ and https://uncommondescent.com/atheism/bbc-swings-and-misses-why-is-there-something-instead-of-nothing-pt-2-being-logic-and-first-principles-24b/kairosfocus
October 3, 2019
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Horses from the same stables.kairosfocus
October 3, 2019
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kairosfocus- Have you noticed that Ed's "arguments" are the exact same as Brian's?ET
October 3, 2019
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EG, trends obviously picked up across the 1960's. By the 1970's we had destabilisation of economic trends too. More importantly, we saw in the 70's the rising tide of the central moral cancer of our civilisation, which you and others refuse to acknowledge: the ongoing abortion holocaust of at least 800+ millions in 40+ years and mounting at another million per week. The associated blood guilt taints and warps everything else, now looking like it is ready to go critical. Associated, we saw the undermining of the natural law foundation for justice as criterion for law and government, opening the door for the rising tide of legal nihilism, further tied to radical secularist humanism and atheism as a mass phenomenon, further gutting foundations of moral law and restraint. No wonder, all sorts of manifest perversities and pathologies are demanding to become the driving force of law and government. It is in this context that we can look at Mr Carroll's remarks as reflective of a common feeling among the so-called progressivist elites. It drips with contempt towards the benighted who imagine they can know what "WE" know does not exist -- which, as God is a serious candidate necessary being -- implies that they think God is impossible of being. A serious NB candidate will either be impossible as a square circle is impossible or else it will be actual, as part of framework for any world to be. And that burden of warrant has never been met.* Carroll's assertion reflects ignorance of philosophy, which of course such often despise once they swallow scientism, and that ignorance comes back like a boomerang. It is time to call the bluff. KF * PS: Yes, I imply that we have every good reason to see God as credibly possible of being, and therefore actual by force of serious candidacy to be a necessary being. Your credible alternative candidate for a world-source and world framing root of being capable of soundly grounding morally governed, rational, responsible, significantly free creatures is ______ and your warrant for said is _________ . Where, your grounds for impossibility of God are ____ or else your grounds that he is not a serious candidate NB are _______ .kairosfocus
October 3, 2019
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KF
EG, I haven’t said this is worse than say Rome in the days of Caligula then Nero;
My point is that I don’t think it is any worse than it was in the 19th or 20th centuries. The tools used are certainly different (internet, etc. ), but I see no evidence that the relative numbers and severity of these crimes has changed over the last couple centuries.Ed George
October 3, 2019
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