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Understanding self-evidence (with a bit of help from Aquinas . . . )

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It seems that one of the pivotal issues in reasoned thinking about design-related questions — and in general —  is the question of self-evident first, certain truths that can serve as a plumb-line for testing other truth claims, and indeed for rationality.

(Where, the laws of identity, non-contradiction and excluded middle are foremost among such first principles. And where also, some ID objectors profess to be “frightened” that some of us dare to hold that there are moral truths that are self evident.)

Where also of course, self-evident does not merely mean perceived as obvious to oneself, which could indeed be a manifestation of a delusion. Nay, a self evident truth [SET] is best summarised as one known to be so and to be necessarily so without further proof from other things.

That is, a SET is:

a: actually true — it accurately reports some relevant feature of reality (e.g.: error exists)

b: immediately recognised as true once one actually understands what is being asserted, in light of our conscious experience of the world (as in, no reasonable person would but recognise the reality that error exists)

c: further seen as something that must be true, on pain of patent absurdity on attempted denial. (E.g. try denying “error exists” . . . the absurdity is rapidly, forcefully manifest)

I think Aquinas has a few helpful words for us:

Now a thing is said to be self-evident in two ways: first, in itself; secondly, in relation to us. Any proposition is said to be self-evident in itself, if its predicate is contained in the notion of the subject: although, to one who knows not the definition of the subject, it happens that such a proposition is not self-evident. For instance, this proposition, “Man is a rational being,” is, in its very nature, self-evident, since who says “man,” says “a rational being”: and yet to one who knows not what a man is, this proposition is not self-evident. Hence it is that, as Boethius says (De Hebdom.), certain axioms or propositions are universally self-evident to all; and such are those propositions whose terms are known to all, as, “Every whole is greater than its part,” and, “Things equal to one and the same are equal to one another.” But some propositions are self-evident only to the wise, who understand the meaning of the terms of such propositions . . . .

Now a certain order is to be found in those things that are apprehended universally. For that which, before aught else, falls under apprehension, is “being,” the notion of which is included in all things whatsoever a man apprehends. Wherefore the first indemonstrable principle is that “the same thing cannot be affirmed and denied at the same time,” which is based on the notion of “being” and “not-being”: and on this principle all others are based, as is stated in Metaph. iv, text. 9.

In short, we have two facets here, First, standing by itself a SET has an objective character and is a first principle, a point of certain knowledge. But, that brings up the second aspect: we need to understand it, that we may grasp it. And, that may well fail, primarily by way of ignorance, secondarily by way of commitment to a contrary ideology that makes it difficult or even nearly impossible to acknowledge that which on the actual merits is self-evident.

How can we address the problem?

By understanding the significance of how rejecting a SET ends in absurdity. Which may be by outright obvious logical contradiction, or by undermining rationality or by being chaotically destructive and/or senseless. Moral SETs are usually seen as self evident in this latter sense.

For instance, by way of laying down a benchmark, let us take the SET that has been so often put here at UD, by way of underscoring vital moral hazards connected to evolutionary materialism (which entails that there are no objective foundations for morality, as many leading Darwinists have acknowledged on the record), to wit:

MORAL YARDSTICK 1: it is Self-Evidently True that it would be wrong to kidnap, torture, rape and murder a child. With corollary, that if such is in progress we are duty-bound to intervene to save the child from the monster.

It will be observed that essentially no-one dares to explicitly deny this, or its direct corollary. That is because such denial would put one in the category of supporting a blatant monster like Nero. Instead, the tendency is to try to push this into the world of tastes, preferences, feelings and community views. Such a view may indeed reflect such, but it is more, it asserts boldly that here is an OUGHT that one denies being bound by, on pain of absurdity. Which of course, further points to our world being a reality grounded in an IS adequate to sustain OUGHT, i.e. we are under moral government.

But, that is not all.

Let us again note Dr Richard Dawkins on the record, in Scientific American, August 1995:

Nature is not cruel, only pitilessly indifferent. This lesson is one of the hardest for humans to learn. We cannot accept that things might be neither good nor evil, neither cruel nor kind, but simply callous: indifferent to all suffering, lacking all purpose [–> It escapes Dr Dawkins that we may have good reason for refusing this implication of his favoured ideological evolutionary materialism] . . . .

In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but pitiless indifference [–> As in open admission of utter amorality that opens the door to nihilism] . . . . DNA neither cares nor knows. DNA just is. And we dance to its music. [“God’s Utility Function,” Sci. Am. Aug 1995, pp. 80 – 85.]

This is right in the heart of the science and society issues that rage over Darwinism and wider evolutionary materialist origins thought. Where, let us again remind ourselves, we must frankly and squarely face how Dr Richard Lewontin went on record also:

. . . the problem is to get [people] to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth [[–> NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]. . . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists, it is self-evident [[–> actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . ] that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality, and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test  [[–> i.e. an assertion that tellingly reveals a hostile mindset, not a warranted claim] . . . .

It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [[–> another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [[–> i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [From: “Billions and Billions of Demons,” NYRB, January 9, 1997. Bold emphasis and notes added. ]

These are smoking gun admissions as to the nature, prior commitments [viewed as self evident! . . . but actually only question-begging . . . ] and consequences of evolutionary materialist ideology, regardless of whether or not it is dressed up in the proverbial lab coat.

And, just as it is legitimate to confront a priori materialist impositions on the methods and conclusions of origins science  it is equally in order to raise serious questions on the moral implications of such ideologies and the way they irreconcilably conflict with yardstick cases of self evident moral truth.

Let us look back at that child.

S/he has no physical prowess to impose his or her will. S/he has no eloquence to persuade a demonic Nero-like monster to stop from brutally despoiling and destructive sick pleasures. S/he is essentially helpless. And yet, our consciences speak loud and clear, giving an insight that this ought not to be done, yea even, if we see such in progress we ought to intervene to rescue if we can, how we can.

Is that voice of conscience delusional, a mere survival trait that leads us to perceive an ought as a binding obligation where there is no such, or it is merely the perceived threat of being caught by superior state power or the like?

We already know from great reformers that the state can be in the wrong, though often that was taught at fearsome cost. (Nero’s vicious persecutions being themselves evidence in point.)

And, if one is imagining that a major aspect of mindedness is delusional, where does that stop?

In short, once the premise of general delusion of our key mental faculties is introduced we are in an infinite regress of Plato’s cave worlds. If we say we identify delusion A, who is to say but this is delusion B, thence C, D, E and so forth?

Plato's Cave of shadow shows projected before life-long prisoners and confused for reality. Once the concept of general delusion is introduced, it raises the question of an infinite regress of delusions. The sensible response is to see that this should lead us to doubt the doubter and insist that our senses be viewed as generally reliable unless they are specifically shown defective. (Source: University of Fort Hare, SA, Phil. Dept.)
Plato’s Cave of shadow shows projected before life-long prisoners and confused for reality. Once the concept of general delusion is introduced, it raises the question of an infinite regress of delusions. The sensible response is to see that this should lead us to doubt the doubter and insist that our senses be viewed as generally reliable unless they are specifically shown defective. (Source: University of Fort Hare, SA, Phil. Dept.)

{U/D Dec 4:}  A video adaptation (one that is closely accurate to the text of The Republic):

So, we see the cogency of UD’s own WJM as he has argued:

If you do not [acknowledge] the law of non-contradiction, you have nothing to argue about. If you do not [admit] the principles of sound reason, you have nothing to argue with. If you do not [recognise] libertarian free will, you have no one to argue against. If you do not [accept] morality to be an objective commodity, you have no reason to argue in the first place.

In short, resort to dismissing key mental capacities as general delusion is a morass, a self-refuting fallacy.  (Which is different from, whether one may be in specific error and even a great many may be in specific error. Indeed, if we look at the original Plato’s Cave parable, it side-steps that by pointing to the one man who is set free and recognises the apparatus of manipulation for what it is, then, having been led to see more widely, returns to try to help; only to face the power of a mass delusion rooted in an evident error that is clung to.)

Instead, we should respect the general capacity of our mental faculties, recognising their strengths as well as limitations, and how playing the general delusion card is self referentially incoherent and absurd.

There is absolutely no good reason to assume or brazenly assert or insinuate that our insight on moral yardstick 1, is delusional. We have instead every good reason to hold that we are morally governed, with conscience as a faculty of mind that serves that government, though it may be dulled or become defective or may be in error on specific points. (Much as is so for vision and hearing, etc.)

So, let us follow up:

1 –> Per MY # 1 etc., we see — on pain of absurdity if we try to deny — that there are self-evident moral truths, entailing that we are under the moral government of OUGHT.

2 –> Where by MY # 1, the little child has moral equality, quasi-infinite worth and equal dignity with us as fellow human beings, a status that immediately is inextricably entangled with that s/he has core rights that we OUGHT to respect: her or his life, liberty, personhood, etc.

3 –> So, we are under moral government, which requires a world in which OUGHT rests on a foundational IS that can bear its weight.

4 –> And, I am very aware of the dismissals of and debates regarding “foundationalism” out there {U/D Dec 02: link added with adjustments, “foundationalism” was there all along . . . }, on closer inspection we can readily see that our worldviews and arguments are invariably dependent on finitely distant start points on which the systems of thought or reasoning must stand:

A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}
A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way

5 –> So, also, we confront the challenge that –  there is just one serious candidate for such a  reality-foundational IS that can bear the weight of OUGHT: the inherently good eternal Creator God, whose precepts and principles will be evidently sound from . . . moral yardstick self evident truths.

6 –> Where also we can highlight the framework of such truths in the context of civil society and government, by citing a pivotal historical case or two.  First, that when he set out to ground the principles of what would become modern liberty and democracy, John Locke cited “the judicious [anglican canon Richard] Hooker” in Ch 2 Sect 5 of his second essay on civil government, thusly:

. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man’s hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [[Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [[Eccl. Polity,preface, Bk I, “ch.” 8, p.80, cf. here. Emphasis added.]

7 –> Less than a hundred years later, this was powerfully echoed in the appeal to self evident moral truths in the US Declaration of Independence of 1776:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, [cf Rom 1:18 – 21, 2:14 – 15], that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. –That [–> still, held self-evident!] to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government [–> right of judicious reformation and innovation, if necessary backed by the right of just revolution in the face of unyielding tyranny when remonstrance fails and threats or actual violence manifest in “a long train of abuses and usurpations” indicates an intent of unlimited despotism . . . ], laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . .

8 –> Those who would therefore seek to poison the well and the atmosphere for discussion on such matters, need to first pause and soberly address these historically decisive cases.

_______________

Therefore, the amorality of evolutionary materialist ideology stands exposed as absurd in the face of self-evident moral truths. Where, such moral yardsticks imply that we are under government of OUGHT, leading onward to the issue that there is only one serious explanation for our finding ourselves living in such a world — a theistic one. END

Comments
BA77: Im not referring to the heathens, but the moderators. As long as you love jesus, anything goes.Graham2
December 2, 2013
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"BA77 is never criticized for this behaviour." LOL, that is an absolute laugh, since there has been a consistent set of people over the years (neo-Darwinian atheists for the overwhelming majority of times) that have constantly criticized me (including name calling, cussing, a few death threats and the whole bit). Perhaps you are just selective about who you want to criticize me since neo-Darwinists cry wolf (read lie) so much??bornagain77
December 2, 2013
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buffalo @ 151, I've never read the Bible, so I can't comment specifically. It's my opinion that anyone who claims god told them to torture infants for fun is either evil or delusional.William J Murray
December 2, 2013
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scd: the best one can do in such cases is go by what one believes exactly.Graham2
December 2, 2013
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Graham2: I will have one more go at the question: How do we know objective morality when we see it ? If 2 people disagree on some moral issue, how do we know which one (if either) is informed by the ‘higher law’ ? No one seems to be able to answer this, yet objective morality is right at the core of all these discussions.
"How do we know objective morality when we see it ?" I think we can't "know" as in we know the theorems of math are correct based on axioms they are predicated upon. We make our best estimate of what is right. Like questions of science, there is a right answer, but we may not have the means to discern it. Thus, we may not always know what is right, even supposing, in the universal sense, there is right and wrong. "If 2 people disagree on some moral issue, how do we know which one (if either) is informed by the ‘higher law’ ?" Maybe we might not know. Each party can state what they believe, in good conscience is the right thing. I gave one example to highlight the point from the hypothetical story of Nathaniel' Hawthorne's scarlett letter where Hester Prynne is tempted to leave her fiendish husband and spend her life with Reverend Dimmesdale. If you, I or someone else had a daughter in Hester's situation, what would you advise? If Emperor Nero threatened to throw a parent and his kids to the lions if they did not burn incense to the emperor, what would the moral thing to do be? With incomplete knowledge, one can decide what actions are consistent with ones belief system. Whether that belief system is aligned with the truth is not always evident, thus the best one can do in such cases is go by what one believes. If one is not completely sure, but frames it in terms of Pascal's wager, then I've argued, one might consider seeking after God because one has more to lose by being disbelieving God than believing in him. This consideration has sparked my interest in creation science above and beyond ID. If ID is true, it doesn't answer question about "How should we then live"? For me, I've tried to find evidence if the Bible is true. I've come to accept there is good evidence to move forward with Pascal's wager that it is. My distribution function could of course be totally wrong, but the question of Pascal's wager is which wager is most consistent with one's assumed-by-faith distribution function. I believe the evidence indicates the world was designed and is the object of God's wrath and coming wrath. Seeking the Designer's mercy by any means is a better play than living ones life out like Richard Dawkins suggests that is: "create your own meaning".scordova
December 2, 2013
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I wrote:
I firmly believe not all truths cannot be reached via deduction, in fact, the most important truths can only be accepted through faith, and that included the faith acceptance of: 1. logic 2. the notion of ultimate truth 3. God 4. mathematics 5. free will
#1, #2, #4 are were deduced by Gödel's logic, not faith-first fideism, thus it was through reason I arrived that these can only be arrived at by faith! They are rooted in considerations of mathematical incompleteness, Heisenberg uncertainty, and considerations of Kolmogorov complexity. #3 and #5 are reasonable suppositions from #1, #2, #4 and other considerations. Goes to show, StephenB is just promoting falsehoods about what I do and do not believe and my reasons for believing them, and what I've said and have not said.
StephenB: No, I am not making things up. I am assessing your philosophical position
It doesn't matter that StephenB promotes false claims under the banner of "philosophical assessment" -- they are rooted in falsehood and presumption, it is falsehood, and thus it is a fabrication from his misunderstandings and misperceptions and sloppy and inaccurate mischaracterizations. That he describe his fabrications as "assessing my philosophical" position doesn't change the fact he is stating falsehoods about what I said, and what I intended by what I said. He takes issue that I don't agree with his evaluation of what I meant when I'm probably in a better position than him to know what I meant. In my case, he seems to think his perceptions about what someone meant take priority over what that person says he meant. Maybe the civil thing to do is ask, "Sal am I understanding you correctly. Are you saying God is unjust. Do you believe God is unjust." Or he could have asked, "Sal are you an anti-Biblical fideist? Do you insist on 'reliance on faith rather than reason'?" But, noooo, his misperception of what I say takes priority. Even when I tell him that the claim "God is unjust" is not what I believe, that's not what I said, that's not what I meant to say ... but noooo, the way he misperceives things about what I believe takes priority over what I actually believe. His false narrative (philosophical assessment) takes precedence over the truth. StephenB insists he understand what I intended write better than I. I never claimed God is unjust. Yet StephenB writes in comment 39:
Your natural sense of justice, the same moral sense that prompts you to accuse God of injustice
I point out in comment 40 that I never accused God of injustice. But even after telling him that, StephenB takes issue insisting I don't understand my own thoughts on the matter better than his understanding of my own thoughts. Despite me clarifying my position, without any evidence that I said God is unjust, in the very next comment (41) StephenB says:
You accused the God of the Old Testament of injustice
He makes that assertion based on his misperception. Exactly making Mark Frank's point that someone can misperceive the truth. Worse, StephenB insists his misperception is the truth. And then I assert again in comment 44:
I believe God is always just. You’re welcome to point to the readers where I explicitly made that accusation [of God being unjust] here or anywhere else. You won’t find it because I never made it. You’re just making stuff up. And long before this discussion, I described my thoughts on the matter: Malicious Design and Question of the Old Testament God The point I was making is that if you were in God’s armies in the Old Testment, and God told you to kill an infant, based on your principles of right reason, and self-evident truths, would you view this to be right? Would you view it immoral to do what God called you to do cheerfully?
That doesn't stop StephenB from responding:
I am not making things up, and it seems that I am not the only one who reads what you say in that fashion (note buffalo @15). But if I misinterpreted your negative comments about God supervising Genocide as an act of injustice, then I happily apologize.
I don't accept that as an apology. An apology is, "Sal I misunderstood you, I misperceived what was true, I was wrong to say you accused God of injustice." StephenB's notpology is rejected. StephenB could have asked, "Sal is it your position that God is unjust?" But noooooo, Stephen's misperception of what I believe is more important to making his points than what I really believe, so for him, he'll insist it is true. How does he know what I believe? He could ask? But he doesn't...I try to tell him what I believe, and he'll deny that this is what I believe! If StephenB can't discern the truth about something as basic as to what I said or did not say, what I meant by what I said, even after telling him, "I'm not saying God is unjust" -- why should I trust his line of argumentation about anything else. He'll just make a philosophical assessment, ascribe the status of truth to that assessment, and then argue vigorously why his false assessment should be accepted as truth. Not very reassuring, especially when talking about self-evident truths.scordova
December 2, 2013
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54: I agree, and BA77 is never criticized for this behaviour. So, SB,KF et al: Could you have a go at answering my question at #121?Graham2
December 2, 2013
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BA77 I have no idea what that has to do with the topic or why you are allowed to spam threads, but wrt your music link - how can you bear to listen to such turgid nonsense? If that's what getting religion does for one's music tastes, then that is another very good reason to avoid it.5for
December 2, 2013
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AL PACINO SPEECH - JUSTICE FOR ALL - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BofddwtPBPw Romans 3:10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; Benjamin Franklin’s Pursuit of the Virtuous Life - 2008 Excerpt: ,,at the age of 20, Ben Franklin set his loftiest goal: the attainment of moral perfection. "I conceiv’d the bold and arduous project of arriving at moral perfection. I wish’d to live without committing any fault at any time; I would conquer all that either natural inclination, custom, or company might lead me into." In order to accomplish his goal, Franklin developed and committed himself to a personal improvement program that consisted of living 13 virtues. (He failed to arrive at moral perfection):,,, "Tho’ I never arrived at the perfection I had been so ambitious of obtaining, but fell far short of it, yet I was, by the endeavour, a better and a happier man than I otherwise should have been if I had not attempted it." http://www.artofmanliness.com/2008/02/24/lessons-in-manliness-benjamin-franklins-pursuit-of-the-virtuous-life/ Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Top Ten Reasons We Know the New Testament is True – Frank Turek – video – November 2011 (41:00 minute mark – Despite what is commonly believed, of someone being 'good enough' to go to heaven, in reality both Mother Teresa and Hitler fall short of the moral perfection required to meet the perfection of God’s objective moral code) http://saddleback.com/mc/m/5e22f/ Falling Plates (the grace of propitiation) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGlx11BxF24
Verse and Music:
Matthew 22:36-40 Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law? And he said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second like unto it is this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments the whole law hangeth, and the prophets. Third Day - Trust In Jesus http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BtaCeJYqZA
Supplemental Note: At the 17:45 minute mark of the following Near Death Experience documentary, the Life Review portion of the Near Death Experience is highlighted, with several testimonies relating how every word, deed, and action, of a person's life (all the 'information' of a person's life) is gone over in the presence of God and judged against God's perfect moral standard of love:
Near Death Experience Documentary - commonalities of the experience - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTuMYaEB35U
bornagain77
December 2, 2013
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CS: I think thats obvious too, but SB, KF et al dont. Im curious to see if Im wrong.Graham2
December 2, 2013
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Bottom line folks, when people ask "how do we know the absolute morality?" there is always going to be a subjective element in the answer because the person giving the answer is relying on subjective elements within his/her own mental faculties. Which means it's a subjective world, folks. Deal with it.CentralScrutinizer
December 2, 2013
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Graham2 to SB: So how can we tell when different people look into their conscience and come up with different answers ? How can we tell whose conscience correctly identified the ‘higher law’ ? You are consistently avoiding the question. Do you not understand the question, or are you just winding me up ?
Like you, I've been on the side waiting for a straight, objective answer. I wouldn't hold your breath, hehe. One thing seems certain, he seems to think that he knows what the absolute morality is and you don't.CentralScrutinizer
December 2, 2013
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StephenB: You know it by its proper fit with human nature. If it promotes what is good for our nature, then it is objectively good; if it promotes what is bad for our nature, then it is objectively bad. If there is no such thing as human nature, then there can be no such thing as objective morality.
Haha. Hahahaha. Bwahahahaha. Dude, you don't seem to understand the question that's being asked of you. Wowsers.CentralScrutinizer
December 2, 2013
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Scordova:
Because I disagree with you doesn’t mean I reject reason, I reject your reasoning. You need to make that distinction.
I would argue that to reject reason's rules is to reject reason.
As it stands you’re just making up falsehoods about what I said.
No, I am not making things up. I am assessing your philosophical position, an opinion I formed on another occasion when you said this:
I firmly believe not all truths cannot be reached via deduction, in fact, the most important truths can only be accepted through faith, and that included the faith acceptance of: 1. logic 2. the notion of ultimate truth 3. God 4. mathematics 5. free will
Also, on that same occasion, you expressed doubts about the Law of Non-Contradiction. In my judgment, your position constitutes fideism and, in my judgment, it is anti-Biblical. The Bible says that we do not need to rely on faith in order to know that God or truth exists. Nothing you have written on this thread prompts me to think that you have changed your position. I probably should not have characterized it as anti-Biblical, however, since such language could be misread as meaning that you are against the Bible, in principle, which would be incorrect. So I will retract that phrase. Meanwhile, a lot of argumentation has been left behind. Do you have any substantive comments about the debate.StephenB
December 2, 2013
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WJM @66 - Indeeed there are people that are delusional. Is you claim that in these Bilical passages that is the case?buffalo
December 2, 2013
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SB: So how can we tell when different people look into their conscience and come up with different answers ? How can we tell whose conscience correctly identified the 'higher law' ? You are consistently avoiding the question. Do you not understand the question, or are you just winding me up ?Graham2
December 2, 2013
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Arguing with elitists, on either side of the ID debate, is an exercise in futility. They twist your words, pick things out of context and create strawmen like there is no tomorrow. It's time wasting and discouraging.Mapou
December 2, 2013
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Gee StephenB I just googled around for all those ideas you falsely attribute to me, and no hits where those false claims can be demonstrated. I wonder why? Here are some you falsely promoted in this thread: 1. that I accused God of being unjust 2. that I'm an anti-Biblical fideist 3. that I insist on "reliance on faith rather than reason" Like I said you have no evidence to that effect because you made those falsehoods up. Perhaps one would be tempted to sarcastically say it's self-evident you're making things up.scordova
December 2, 2013
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Graham 2
How can we ever tell if any decision made by a human being is in accord with the ‘higher law’ ? Does a bell ring or something ?
Yes. If you allow it to speak, your conscience will inform you. If you do the wrong thing, it will nag you; if you do the right thing, it will comfort you. On the other hand, one can compromise and eventually deaden his conscience if he continues to act in ways that are antagonistic to his nature. Humans are the only creatures who can pervert their own nature by acting like a lower being (animal).StephenB
December 2, 2013
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StephenB: Please respond to my arguments and stop trying to play the victim. You wrote a lot of words and I invested a lot of words in response.
No dice. You make stuff up about me, you get called on it and then you demand I respond to your arguments. You said I'm anti-Biblical. You have no evidence to that effect because you fabricated that falsehood. Show the readers where I ever claimed "I'm an anti-Biblical fideist"?
The fideist therefore “urges reliance on faith rather than reason, in matters philosophical and religious,”
Where did I urge "reliance on faith rather than reason", you're making that up to. Show the readers where I ever claimed "I'm an anti-Biblical fideist"? Show the readers where I urge "reliance on faith rather than reason", you're making that up to. Because I disagree with you doesn't mean I reject reason, I reject your reasoning. You need to make that distinction. As it stands you're just making up falsehoods about what I said. Go ahead, show the reader where I insisted on "reliance on faith rather than reason". You can't because like the other falsehoods you've promoted about what I said, you're promoting yet another.scordova
December 2, 2013
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SB: That bears directly on this question. A 'higher law' is an intersting idea, it would certainly give us certainty, but my question is: How do we know it when we see it? What frightens me is when one person thinks he has identified some moral principle that comes from this 'higher law' and imposes it on me. Perhaps he is mistaken, perhaps this particular principle really isnt in accord with the 'higher law'. How can we tell who is right ? I have no particular problem with the declaration (In any case, Im not American) but exactly the same question remains: How do we know the declaration is an expression of this 'higher law' ? Perhaps the original authors were mistaken. How can we ever tell if any decision made by a human being is in accord with the 'higher law' ? Does a bell ring or something ? Can you see the problem ?Graham2
December 2, 2013
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SB: You know it by its proper fit with human nature. Graham 2
That doesnt answer the question at all.
Yes, it does. You asked a question, and I gave you the answer.
The whole point of the question is that different people have a different view on moral questions, ie: they have a different view of its ‘fit with human nature’.
No. There are people who accept the fact that humans have a nature (and purpose) and there are those who do not. That is where the disagreement lies.
You mave merely expressed the question in different words. I harp on about this because these threads bang on endlessly about some ‘higer law’ but this concept is completely meaningless unless we can recognize it when we see it.
Recall that I asked you to comment on the Declaration of Independence, which contains references to this higher law. ["The Laws of Nature and Nature's God"]. It is time now, I think, for you to address this issue. You said that you are frightened by references to the higher law. So, my question persists: Are you frightened by the Declaration of Independence and its references to a higher law, the same higher law that informs civil law and natural rights. (You do know that natural rights come from the Natural Moral Law, right?)StephenB
December 2, 2013
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G2: If there is no 'objective morality', in some cultures they may prefer to eat their neighbors while some others don't, do you have a preference one way or the other in determining what is not a proper fit for the nature of man?Chalciss
December 2, 2013
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Scordova
There you go again, making stuff about me that isn’t true. Where did I ever say, “I’m an anti-Biblical fideist”?
"Plantinga defines "fideism" as "the exclusive or basic reliance upon faith alone, accompanied by a consequent disparagement of reason and utilized especially in the pursuit of philosophical or religious truth." The fideist therefore "urges reliance on faith rather than reason, in matters philosophical and religious," and therefore may go on to disparage the claims of reason." You are a fideist. Fideism is anti-Biblical. In my posts, I am implicitly arguing against your fideism. You are not responding except to complain that I called you a fideist. Please respond to my arguments and stop trying to play the victim. You wrote a lot of words and I invested a lot of words in response.StephenB
December 2, 2013
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SB: You know it by its proper fit with human nature That doesnt answer the question at all. The whole point of the question is that different people have a different view on moral questions, ie: they have a different view of its 'fit with human nature'. Thats precisely the point of the question. If we all had identical views on 'fit with human nature' we wouldnt have any problems, but this obviously isnt the case. You mave merely expressed the question in different words. I harp on about this because these threads bang on endlessly about some 'higer law' but this concept is completely meaningless unless we can recognize it when we see it.Graham2
December 2, 2013
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Graham 2
I will have one more go at the question: How do we know objective morality when we see it ?
You know it by its proper fit with human nature. If it promotes what is good for our nature, then it is objectively good; if it promotes what is bad for our nature, then it is objectively bad. If there is no such thing as human nature, then there can be no such thing as objective morality.
If 2 people disagree on some moral issue, how do we know which one (if either) is informed by the ‘higher law’ ?
Same answer as above.StephenB
December 2, 2013
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StephenB describes me: Your anti-Biblical fideism places you in the same epistemological camp as the agnostics
There you go again, making stuff about me that isn't true. Where did I ever say, "I'm an anti-Biblical fideist"? Feel free to produce such a quote or some equivalent quote for the readers. You won't, because you're just making stuff up, just as you did when you claimed I accused God of being unjust. That's two fabrications about me you've made in one discussions. Not cool.
StephenB describes me: Your anti-Biblical fideism places you in the same epistemological camp as the agnostics
There you go again, making stuff about me that isn't true. Where did I ever say, "I'm an anti-Biblical fideist"? Feel free to produce such a quote or some equivalent quote for the readers. You won't, because you're just making stuff up, just as you did when you claimed I accused God of being unjust. That's two fabrications about me you've made in one discussions. Not cool. That's especially ironic given that I appealed to the Bible more in this discussion than you, whereas you've appealed to whatever...scordova
December 2, 2013
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To KF/SB et al: Could you answer my question at #121 ?Graham2
December 2, 2013
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#125 TSErik OK let's keep it simple. You said:
In order to advance your position, you must find a society that has no concept, at all, of murder. One with a relativist worldview should expect to find such a society.
I am asking why as a relativist must I find such a society. Maybe everyone subjectively agrees on a concept of murder. (If your response is to tell me that it shows I don't understand the concept then perhaps a better explanation is in order.)Mark Frank
December 2, 2013
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Oh hi there, StephenB! Did you ever get round to explaining the concept of abstract reality?Alan Fox
December 2, 2013
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