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Darwinism from an informatics point of view

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progflowAs everyone knows, life in all its countless instances (organisms) involves internal instructions, as well as processors that run them. Without these instructions, no organism would be able to originate in the first place, let alone develop or survive. The discovery of these instructions – contained in DNA/RNA macromolecules and the molecular machinery that reads and writes them in biological cells – has been hailed as one of the greatest theoretical and experimental breakthroughs of the 20th century. The ID movement claims that these scientific findings have only served to highlight the weaknesses and inconsistencies of the neo-Darwinian theory of macro-evolution, according to which all species have evolved from a common ancestor, as a result of random mutation and natural selection.

The discovery of complex information processing in biology invites the question of whether there are any significant similarities between bio-informatics and the artificial informatics of computers, i.e. so-called computer science. Given that in both fields information has to be managed and processed, some similarities must of course exist. In this post, I will attempt to outline some conclusions on this topic, which lead us inexorably to the conclusion that Darwinian theory is incapable in principle of explaining the mystery of the origin of life and of species, as it claims to do.

When we consider the development of organisms and their complex internal organs and biological systems, we can easily see that these developmental sequences – and here I am talking about both ontogenetic and phylogenetic sequences – must involve complex programs, which embody decision logic about what has to be assembled, and also when and where it should be assembled. In other words, the right things need to be put in the right place at the right time, according to a precise schedule which is in some respects even more rigorous than schedules used in human engineering. For example, the development of an embryo is a process whose countless steps need to be choreographed in their most minute details by a program that is oriented towards the final result. Any error in the execution of this program may have severely deleterious consequences. The same thing can be said regarding the alleged macroevolution of new kinds of organs or even new body plans.

Given that biology and informatics both make use of programs, it will be necessary for me to say a few things about computer programming, in order to explain as clearly as possible exactly what a program is. I know that a lot of UD readers are software developers, so the points I will be making below will be very obvious to them. However, I’ll have to ask them to bear with me, as some of our readers are laypeople in these fields.

In order to process information – i.e. create software – it is necessary to create data and programs. Data is passive information: it cannot change or decide anything by itself. For example, let’s say I have a string variable (called $a) and I set it to contain the value “something” – or maybe I have a numeric variable $b which I set to contain the value 3.14. In these cases, I am neither specifying what should be done with the set values, nor when it should be done. Hence if I were to confine my work as a programmer to simply declaring the values of passive data, I would never be able to actively run a program or control any of its processes. Putting it another way: a program, in its simplest concept, is a blueprint specifying the reiteration of basic decision structures, about what to do and when to do it. A program must specify conditions and actions forming a control structure:

conditions (when to do it)
{

actions (what to do)

}

In other words, a program is active information. Since it determines conditions and actions, it has to be able to decide and organize things, and it also has to be able to create and change data. A program implies a decision hierarchy – in a word, a “logic”. It states what to do, when certain particular conditions arise. Once a program is designed, its execution by a processor can be used to control data and processes of any kind.

The simple structure described above can be repeated many times and can also be nested to create very complex structures with multiple nesting layers, such as the following example, with three nesting levels (the indentations and carriage returns have been inserted to help the reader understand the program flow, but are irrelevant per se at the level of machine code):

conditions
{

actions
conditions;
{

actions;
conditions;
{

actions;
conditions;
{

actions;

}

}

}

}

Another important concept of programming is that of the sub-function or sub-routine:

function
{

}

The main program can reference and run a sub-function as follows:

conditions
{

actions
&function

}

where “&” is the symbol for referencing.

A sub-routine is a sub-program (or “child” program) of the parent program (usually called “main”) that invokes it, which can be referenced (i.e. used indirectly, thanks to a pointer that points to it). Two important things to note about sub-functions are that they work only if they exist somewhere within the software (a very obvious point) and that they are “called” by the main program. In other words, even if we have entire libraries of sub-functions, they will be useless if they are never called: they will be “dormant software”. Thus in a sense, dormant sub-functions constitute passive information. They are passive because they still require a caller that can run them. A sub-function which is never called does absolutely nothing.

From another point of view, programming can be defined as whatever implements control of a process. Since – as Michel Behe says – the fundamental problem of biochemistry and molecular biology (and, in the final analysis, of systems biology) is the problem of control, it follows that programming is indispensable in biology, where countless complex and concurrent processes are involved. Because multiple processes are running at the same time in biological systems – a property that scientists refer to as concurrency – there must be some higher level of direction that governs them all.

It should be noted that the conclusions obtained above hold quite independently of whether an organism’s biological instructions are completely contained within its genome, or only partially. There are many (and I would count myself among them) who suspect that the genome, by itself, does not contain enough information to account for the overall biological complexity of an organism. However one thing is certain: the assembly instructions of living beings must exist somewhere, and the science of generating instructions (computer science) can help us understand their organization and fabrication.

Modern evolutionary theory proposes several unguided mechanisms in order to explain the alleged global macroevolution of species from a single common ancestor: random genetic mutations, sexual genetic recombination, horizontal gene transfer, gene duplication, genetic drift, and so on. According to evolutionary theory, the output of all of these blind processes is subsequently processed (or filtered) by natural selection, which allows only the fittest to survive and reproduce. However, as we will see below, not one of these processes is capable of generating programs. Hence they are also incapable of creating new organs, new body plans, or even new species.

The concept of the gene is fundamental to evolutionary theory in particular, and to genetics and biology in general. Despite its importance, we are still a long way from a clear definition of what a gene is. From the old definition of “recipe for a protein” to the new definition of “functional unit of the genome,” the concept of gene has evolved to the point where some researchers now openly declare that “a gene is a unit of both structure and function, whose exact meaning and boundaries are defined by the scientist in relation to the experiment he or she is doing.” In practice, this means that a gene is whatever a particular scientist has in mind when he/she is doing a particular experiment.

The argument which I am putting forward here cuts through these definitional controversies, because from my informatics-based perspective there are really only two possibilities, which can be summarized as follows: either (a) genes are data (which corresponds to the above old definition of a gene); or (b) genes are functions (which corresponds to the new definition). The key point to understand here is that the development of new organs or body-plans (macroevolution) necessarily involves new decision logic, i.e. new hierarchies of nested control structures. Specifically, the architectural complexity (at the system level) of new organs or body-plans and their embryogenesis involves assembly instructions which require advanced-level control, and hence advanced programming.

Let’s suppose that the first option is correct, and that genes are data. In this case, it can easily be demonstrated that point random mutations, sexual recombination, horizontal gene transfer and data duplication are all incapable of creating the hierarchical decision logic of the main program. In fact, data is what the main program elaborates. Data is passive, while the program is active. What is passive cannot create what is active. This is just as true for intelligently designed data as it is for the data upon which the random operations of Darwinian evolution are applied.

We can illustrate this point from another perspective, by using the analogy of the bricks in a building. If genes are data containing only “recipes for proteins,” and proteins are the “bricks” of the organism “building,” then it is obvious that genes/bricks (and the random Darwinian operations performed upon them) cannot account for the construction and assembly of the organism/building – that is, the set of rules and instructions specifying the way in which the various bricks have to assemble together, in order to yield the unity of a complete system. The building construction metaphor also helps us understand why different organisms can have almost the same genetic patrimony. Just as the same bricks can be used to construct entirely different buildings, the same genes can be used to develop entirely different organisms. In other words, in both biology and architecture, what matters are not the basic building blocks, but rather the higher-level instructions which operate upon them.

Now let’s consider the second alternative, which is that genes are equivalent to software sub-functions. This is quite a generous assumption for evolutionists to make, because it implies that genes possess their own internal decision logic, without explaining how they acquired it. In reality, the so-called “regulatory regions” of genes probably don’t warrant being described as true algorithms. But even if genes were the equivalent of software functions, then once again, random mutations, sexual recombination, horizontal gene transfer and duplication of functions would still be incapable of creating hierarchical decision logic. Why not? Because the decision logic contained in the main program is what invokes the functions (by referencing them). Just as a hammer or a drill cannot create a carpenter, the above operations on functions are incapable of creating their user.

Let us note in passing that the classic evolutionist objection that a mutation involving only a few bits (or even a single bit) is capable of triggering major changes (evolutionists typically cite homeobox genes that control some configurations of the body plan, etc.) contains another misunderstanding. For the active information for these changes still has to exist somewhere, and it must be as large as the changes require it to be. It is true that a programmer can write a very short “wrapper program” to trigger large changes, but that doesn’t mean that the changes themselves require only a little information to specify. For example, I can write a short piece of code which I choose to run on my computer – say, a word processor or a chess program. This code is a few bits long, but the word processor and the chess program are really large programs. All the function does is point to or reference them. However, the function doesn’t create the active information contained in the word processor or chess program software; rather, it simply switches control between the two. Hence there is no free-lunch creation of information whatsoever here.

Leaving aside the problems associated with defining what a gene is, it can still be shown that the random processes which evolutionary theory claims are capable of generating biological complexity, simply don’t work. They don’t work because they are, by their very nature, incapable of generating the top-down functional hierarchy of nested decision structures that is responsible for making the whole system. Since this objection to the adequacy of random processes is an in-principle objection, it is useless for evolutionists to attempt to counter it by resorting to vast amounts of time or huge probabilistic resources. The fundamental problem of Darwinism is that the greater cannot come from the less.

To sum up: Darwinism, from an informatics point of view, has absolutely zero credibility. This explains, among other things, why so many computer programmers who are interested in the ID/evolution debate are on the ID side. In their own job they have never seen a single bit of software arise gratis. Rather they have to create, bit by bit, the active information of the software applications they develop. These people are justifiably perplexed when they encounter the evolutionist claim that God did not have to write a single line of code, because biological complexity (which is far greater than any computer software) arose naturalistically. “Why no work for Him and so much work for me?” they may ask. In this post, I hope I have helped explain that God, also in this case, expects far less from us than what He Himself did and does.

Comments
---Toronto: “You’ve left out that my Nature and your God have a peer-to-peer relationship when it comes to my definition of a first cause.” I have explained why it is not a “peer-to peer” relationship. You have not addressed those reasons but rather continued to claim that nature can be a first cause, not to mention that fact that you never defined nature in the first place. ---“It is as pointless to talk specifics about nature as it is to ask whether the box containshis cat was properly ventilated.” Perhaps that is because you never bothered to define nature. What you are really talking about, I gather, is the physical universe, but, of course, a well-formed definition leads to clarity, and clarity is the Darwinists greatest enemy. ---“My description about God or your description of nature is meaningless for the point that is being debated.” We do not have to describe God or nature, for that matter, to know what can and cannot qualify as a first cause. ---“The actual point is, do we call the first cause God, and say it communicates with us, OR…, do we call it Nature and say it doesn’t communicate with us.” No, the point is that you deny the status of the causeless cause by reducing it to nature and then asking nature to assume that role. Nature, because it changes, is material, and began in time, cannot be the first cause, which must be unchanging, non-material, and eternal. Ignoring that point will not make it go away.StephenB
May 27, 2010
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niwrad @ 115,
The informatics-biology analogy is supported by many Darwinists too.
Here is my response to aqeels @ 11.
[aqeels:] I think the safest analogy we can make is that at the heart of things is information, and that biological entities must process it like a black box.
[Toronto:]I have no problem with the above statement at all despite being an atheist, (but a humble one).
What you are promoting is not yet developed enough to be useful as an analogy.Toronto
May 27, 2010
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Toronto #109
It wasn’t meant to defend blind evolution. It was in response to: [niwrad:] "How can the same bits be data and program at the same time for the same compiler". It was meant to show that your analogy, that "human designed computer systems are like biological processes", is not valid.
Interesting. Don’t you defend blind evolution? The informatics-biology analogy is supported by many Darwinists too. For example Richard Dawkins writes:
Genetics has become a branch of information technology. Really the genetic code is digital, exactly in the same sense in which computer codes are. It is not a vague analogy, rather a real truth. (A Devil’s Chaplain, chap. 1)
Unfortunately they don’t accept the unavoidable consequence of this analogy: no information technology can be created by blind evolution.niwrad
May 27, 2010
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Bioluminescence is a phenomenon that is difficult for evolutionists to explain because it occurs across phylums. It can be found in potato plant leaves, foxfire fungi, squids, fireflies, the black dragonfish and sharks (and other places as well). Bioluminescence is a double-edged sword. It brings camouflage, a meal, or a mate in the correct context but would actually be deadly if it occurred in the wrong species (as with a mouse on a dark night). From a programming point-of-view, we can look at specific capabilities withing flora and fauna as being akin to subroutines in computer program. They bear the marks of an Intelligent Programmer because they are task-specific and are sprinkled disparately across phylums. Just as "just-in-time" factory inventory systems show the mark of intelligent planning, so the "just in time" appearance of bioluminescence among specific species shows the work of Divine Intelligence.dynamicXdesign
May 27, 2010
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Nakashima #107
The Lisp example I gave earlier could have been written before 1960. IBM 360 assembler language is also not an advanced programming technique.
Don’t equivocate Nak. Meta-programming is an advanced programming technique not in historical sense, rather in conceptual sense.
But I take that you finally agree that there is no fundamental distinction of a categorical nature between program and data in computers, only a distinction in common practice and pedagogy today.
You have misunderstood my friend, I do not agree at all. The distinction between data and program is a particular case of the more general distinction between agent and acted, subject and object, referencer and referenced, observer and observed, etc. Also in self-modifying software there is a code that writes and a code that is written. So, despite that both are instructions the distinction between writer and written holds and is what matters (and is far more than a mere pedagogical issue). The distinction between active and passive exists of course also in informatics because it is a general principle. This principle is what refutes at its root any illusion of self-action in general (and in particular of self-assembly).
At another level, insertions, deletions, and mutations certainly do create new sequences of instructions. All forms of recombination create new sequences of instructions.
One of the claims of my post was that such operations, which you cite, have analogous counterparts in informatics and biology (and justify, among other things, the informatics-biology analogy I support). My conclusion (different from yours) was that such operations on pieces of code are unable to create the hierarchical decision logic that uses and references them to construct new systems. In other words to create new junk sequences of instructions is a "horizontal" process, so to speak. To create functioning hierarchical decision logic is a "vertical" job that only intelligence can do.niwrad
May 27, 2010
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StephenB, Please see my posts at 103 and 104.Toronto
May 27, 2010
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StephenB @ 110, You've left out that my Nature and your God have a peer-to-peer relationship when it comes to my definition of a first cause. In that case, if my first cause is in any way lacking the required capabilities, then yours is lacking in the same way. Please try to understand at what level of abstraction this point is being made at. We are talking at the level of "Schrodinger's Cat" . It is as pointless to talk specifics about nature as it is to ask whether the box containg his cat was properly ventilated. Despite the fact that a physicist was talking about Quantum Mechanics, there was no physics or math required for the level of abstraction that the experiment occupies. My description about God or your description of nature is meaningless for the point that is being debated. The actual point is, do we call the first cause God, and say it communicates with us, OR..., do we call it Nature and say it doesn't communicate with us.Toronto
May 27, 2010
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---Toronto: "My first cause …..”is”….. Nature" I have already provided a number of reasons why nature cannot be a first cause. You simply ignored them. There are many more. At some level, Darwinists always reject causality and, in the process, reason itself.StephenB
May 27, 2010
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niwrad @ 105,
Your reference to advanced programming techniques (as self-modifying code, mixing code and data space, etc.) doesn’t help your cause of defending blind evolution.
It wasn't meant to defend blind evolution. It was in response to:
[niwrad:] How can the same bits be data and program at the same time for the same compiler.
It was meant to show that your analogy, that "human designed computer systems are like biological processes", is not valid. Any conclusions you derive from your analogy will also be invalid.Toronto
May 27, 2010
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niwrad @ 106, Your first cause ..."is".... God. My first cause ....."is"..... Nature. Since they are; "peers at my level of abstraction", how can "I" possibly have created a contradiction?Toronto
May 27, 2010
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Mr Niwrad, The Lisp example I gave earlier could have been written before 1960. IBM 360 assembler language is also not an advanced programming technique. But I take that you finally agree that there is no fundamental distinction of a categorical nature between program and data in computers, only a distinction in common practice and pedagogy today. As such the basis for your initial analogy is disproven. No one is arguing that evolution creates instructions, in the sense of creating new natural laws. The instruction set of our cosmic computer is fixed. Evolution only exploits quirks of physics and chemistry that have existed from the beginning. At another level, insertions, deletions, and mutations certainly do create new sequences of instructions. All forms of recombination create new sequences of instructions. Whether these operations have clear analogs in terms of computers is merely a limitation of the analogy. The field of genetic programming does make the analogy strongly.Nakashima
May 27, 2010
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Toronto #104 You wrote in #95:
Why can you have an uncaused first cause, (i.e., God), and I can’t?
There your desire was to have your own uncaused first cause (different from God). Then in #104 you wrote:
No we are not discussing the cause of nature, we are discussing the cause of life.
Since the uncaused first cause is obviously also the cause of nature, in #104 you contradict your #95.niwrad
May 27, 2010
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Nakashima #99, Toronto #100 Your reference to advanced programming techniques (as self-modifying code, mixing code and data space, etc.) doesn’t help your cause of defending blind evolution. In fact my thesis was that evolution cannot create instructions. If evolution cannot create instructions to greater reason is unable to create instructions that create/modify instructions (as in self-modifying programming). What cannot create code a fortiori cannot create meta-code. So, in your attempt of defending evolution, you worsen your position by putting advanced programming on the table, because advanced programming needs more intelligence than simple programming. In a sense self-modifying programming implies an additional abstraction layer. For intelligence no problem insofar intelligence is, beyond many other things, what can create multiple hierarchical layers of abstraction upon matter. Unfortunately for evolution these same layers become additional impossibility layers. To avoid a possible misunderstanding, I add that evolution, beyond damage data, can well damage instructions (and eventually meta-instructions) of course. In this sense I agree with you that evolution "operates" on instructions too.niwrad
May 27, 2010
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StephenB @ 102,
We are discussing the cause of nature.
No we are not discussing the cause of nature, we are discussing the cause of life. If you want me to prove the cause of nature instead, you have to prove the cause of God.Toronto
May 26, 2010
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StephenB @ 102, Good, we agree life had a cause. The only thing left to determine is what that cause was. Imagine that an ID proponent puts an envelope on a table followed by one from an Evo advocate, both containing data about their cause. 1) Are you allowed to treat the envelopes differently? 2) If the envelopes must be treated identically, then either envelope can contain the identity of the first cause. If you insist they can be treated differently, then you have jumped a layer of abstraction which makes any logical debate impossible.Toronto
May 26, 2010
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---Toronto: “We are actually in almost total agreement yet you refuse to acknowledge it. ---“Why can you have an uncaused first cause, (i.e., God), and I can’t?” — “I believe life had a cause.” —Toronto: ”I believe that cause came from within nature.” ---Where do I say nature came from nature? To come from “inside nature” is to come “from nature.” We are discussing the cause of nature. Nature cannot bring itself into being, either “from itself” or from “inside itself.” Also, nature, since it is material, is always changing. The cause of that change must come from the outside. Imagine a pan full of water changing from cold to hot. The cause of that change must come from the outside, either from the flame on the range top or from some other source of heat. The pan of water cannot warm itself. The change most certainly cannot come from the inside of the pan. Nothing can be the cause of its own change. Further, the first cause of all other changes must, itself, be unchanging. If it could change, that change would have to come from another cause. Also, the first cause must be immaterial, because only non matter is unchangeable. That is one of many reasons why nature cannot qualify as a first cause.StephenB
May 26, 2010
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niwrad @ 98, —Toronto: “I believe life had a cause.” —Toronto: ”I believe that cause came from within nature.” Where do I say nature came from nature? I don't know how I can in any way simplify this.Toronto
May 26, 2010
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niwrad @ 97, You said this:
How can the same bits be data and program at the same time for the same compiler?
I answered with this:
[Toronto @ 96:] The point is that my loader can map the address spaces of two different tasks such that task A generates data that task B has mapped as code space.
I invite you to pick apart my post @ 96. There is no need to appeal to anyone as either my comment at 96 is valid or it's not. If there is something wrong with it, you should be able to show me where I went wrong. You have not convinced me, ROb or Nakashima, i.e., people that seem to be familiar with computing concepts, that your analogy is valid. If your analogy was actually workable, we three should be the easiest to convince, not the hardest. Specifically, it is your analogy, not someone elses, that is flawed.Toronto
May 26, 2010
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Mr Niwrad, How can the same bits be data and program at the same time for the same compiler? I was going to quote for you from the lessons in IBM 360 Assembler Language that I took in college, since my professor was quite proud of how easy and useful it was to write self modifying code in BAL. However, I see that Wikipedia has a page on Self Modifying Code which would be better for you to learn from. You might note that on self modifying code has evolutionary uses, according to that page.Nakashima
May 26, 2010
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Toronto #95
Why can you have an uncaused first cause, (i.e., God), and I can’t?
Simply because yours is not a first cause. In fact yourself defined it as "coming from within nature" (#91). As can a thing "within nature" be the cause of nature? Causa sui fallacy…niwrad
May 26, 2010
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Toronto #96 The analogy between informatics and biology, which you deny while many agree with, is based on the fact that only instructions/decisions can make organization. Your negation of the informatics-biology analogy implies you believe that biological organization can be created without instructions/decisions. A biological development is not a one-step photocopy process. It entails countless steps and at every step needs countless decisions about what, when and where to assembly. It is beyond me how you think to organize a biological development without instructions/decisions. Instead it is clear to me why you (and other evolutionists) deny this analogy: it is a nail in the coffin of Darwinism because informatics is designed cent per cent (and you as a programmer understand it). You assembler example doesn’t change one bit of this situation.niwrad
May 26, 2010
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niwrad @ 94,
How can the same bits be data and program at the same time for the same compiler?
Please read all of the following. The compiler has nothing to do with it at the system level. I can write the scheduler for an OS in assembler meaning there is no compiler. I can load and locate assorted standard linked Microsoft ".exe" modules and start them off as seperate tasks without knowing what type of compiler produced them so long as they're in standard PE format and thus re-locatable by my loader. The point is that my loader can map the address spaces of two different tasks such that task A generates data that task B has mapped as code space. Task B doesn't realize that the code it is executing, (Task B code), was actually generated by Task A in what A considers it's data space, (Task A data). Your analogy doesn't hold up.Toronto
May 26, 2010
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StephenB @ 93, We are actually in almost total agreement yet you refuse to acknowledge it. Why can you have an uncaused first cause, (i.e., God), and I can't?Toronto
May 26, 2010
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Nakashima #92,
Program and data are not categorically different. If a program reads or writes the bits at a memory address, they are data. If the same memory address becomes the content of the instruction pointer, those same bits are program.
How can the same bits be data and program at the same time for the same compiler? They cannot be both when elaborated by the same code. For example the same bits string cannot mean "$a=3.141592653589" (data) and "if ($a==3) {$b=4}" (decision) when codified by the same code. You need two different codes to get two different meanings from the same bits string. But this way we are led again to the very question of this post: the creation of codes. Codes are what can interpret data. As such they are unreachable by blind evolution, which can change (damage) data only, but cannot create the interpreter of data, which overarches them.niwrad
May 26, 2010
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---Toronto: "I believe life had a cause." ---"I believe that cause came from within nature." Your soltution begs the question and simply denies causality at the next level. Big Bang cosmology shows that nature is an effect from another cause. It did not or could not bring itself into being. I have never met a Darwinist who does not deny causality at some level." Further, I anticipated your comment, since it is quite common. That is why I wrote this: "Press them on the point and they will change their story and insist that the conditions really were present in the cause all along. That shifting strategy doesn’t work, of course, because intelligent agents, who can decide to create or not to create cannot, at the same time, be a law, which can only do what it does."StephenB
May 26, 2010
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Mr Niwrad, I agree that there is a categorical differeince between the substance of the univese and the laws that govern it (modulo the possibility that a Theory Of Everything could discover that there are no free parameters). My dispute with you is whether there is a valid analogy between these two categories and the ideas of program and data as used in computers. This analogy is the basis for your argument. It is flawed. Program and data are not categorically different. If a program reads or writes the bits at a memory address, they are data. If the same memory address becomes the content of the instruction pointer, those same bits are program. It is as simple as that.Nakashima
May 25, 2010
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StephenB @ 90, I believe life had a cause. I believe that cause came from within nature.Toronto
May 25, 2010
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This thread brings back memories of other discussions that I have had with Darwinists on the matter of what is logically possible or not possible. On multiple occasions, I have emphasized the point that nothing can come into existence without a cause, which is another way of saying that something cannot come from nothing. At other times, I have focused on various corollaries with respect to this same law of causality, not the least of which is the fact that a cause cannot give what it does not have to give. If the effect was not first present in the cause in some way, it cannot become manifest. I have further emphasized that this law of causality is derived from the equally compelling law of identity. Again, I remind everyone concerned, both ID supporters and the anti-ID critics, that Darwinists do not accept these logical principles or the practical guidance that they offer for arriving at reasonable answers to all the questions that have been put on the table. We have heard every objection imaginable, beginning with claims that the law of causality does not apply to the real world and ending with inquiries about the definition of the “something” that cannot come from nothing. Naturally, if something can come from nothing, then clearly an information code can emerge from physical laws or from matter itself. Is this reasonable? Of course not. ---As niwrad explains, “From the natural laws can only emerge what is potentially contained in them. Biological and informatics codes are not potentially contained in those laws then there must exist a higher source that imposes these abstract codes upon the material supports. ---To deny this conclusion is as to claim that a cards deck can create the poker rules by itself.” As clear as this point ought to be, Darwinists simply do not believe it because they reject the principle of causation that informs it. For them, there is no reason why biological and informatics codes that are not potentially contained in laws cannot emerge from those laws. For them, nothing is impossible: Rational universes create themselves, life comes from non-life, and mind emerges from matter. What is to prevent it? Indeed, they can find no reason to rule out the prospect that poker rules could emerge from a deck of cards. Granted, they will concede that we “have no evidence” that any such event has ever occurred, but they will not assert, in principle, that such an event could not happen. To do so, would be to acknowledge causality as a law, which would be tantamount to abandoning their materialistic paradigm, which requires selective causality. Thus, when presented with a reasoned argument that draws on the limits of that which is possible in a logical sense, they simply tear down reason’s wall and ask, “why not?” That same thing is happening right here on this thread and there really isn’t much that can be done about it except to call attention to it. Press them on the point and they will change their story and insist that the conditions really were present in the cause all along. That shifting strategy doesn’t work, of course, because intelligent agents, who can decide to create or not to create cannot, at the same time, be a law, which can only do what it does. The bottom line is that it seldom advances the cause of rational discourse to discuss science with those who dispute the law of causality without at least making the point that the discussion is not founded on a rational basis. Science is, after all, a search for causes. What is the point of probing the possible causes of anything with someone who thinks that events can occur without causes? That would be like trying to solve a murder with someone who believes that not all murders require a murderer. Just about the time you have built your argument to the point at which you can declare with confidence that A must have committed the murder because neither B or anyone else could have done it, your Darwinist friend, if he doesn’t like your conclusion, will likely plead that it may be one of those murders that occurred without a murderer.StephenB
May 25, 2010
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niwrad @ 87,
The logical distinction that you cannot deny is between things and instructions/decisions about things.
What about self-modifying code?Toronto
May 25, 2010
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R0b #84
Your appeals to intelligence and freedom are rife with metaphysical assumptions that I have never understood, so I won’t pursue you down that path.
Have you never understood if *you* are intelligent and free? I won’t pursue you down the path of physics because the topic of this post is about the instructions to construct complex systems, which are a software layer beyond the physical laws.niwrad
May 25, 2010
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