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Debating Darwin and Design: A Dialogue Between Two Christians

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A couple of months ago, I agreed to take part in a written debate with a good friend of mine, Francis Smallwood. Francis, like me, is a commited Christian. Unlike me though, he is also a neo-Darwinist. On his blog Musings Of A Scientific Nature he writes on many different scientific issues, although his primary focus is on Darwinism. I encourage UD readers to check his blog out.

As an enthusiastic ID proponent, I obviously think his embrace of Darwinian theory is profoundly mistaken, and equally I think his criticisms of ID are weak. However, he is at least willing to engage in debate with people of opposing view points and is not as dismissive as most Darwinists.

Our idea was to chose several points of contention that are related to the debate between ID and Darwinism. These will include questions such as: Is ID science or creationism? Can we detect design in nature? What is the evidence for neo-Darwinism?, and several others. In turn, we will focus on each particular issue and have an extended back and forth.

We have aimed to keep the discussion civil and measured, making sure we refrain from lapsing into the usual name-calling and vituperation. Though this is intended to be an extended debate over a long period of time, we have only just scratched the surface of the debate. The first issue we have chosen to focus on is the question whether ID is genuine science or merely a form of stealth creationism. So far we have had a couple of exchanges and more will be forthcoming.

I thought some readers here may be interested in this discussion and so will post my responses to Francis on here over time. At the top will be a link to his blog so you can go there and read his responses yourself. Though the discussion so far is fairly elementary, I hope some will find it edifying and we will be sure to get into deeper waters as these issues are opened up and probed further.

We began by writing opening statements to this discussion. You can read Francis’ statement here My statement can be read below:

Debating Darwin and Design

A Dialogue Between Two Christians

Joshua Gidney-Opening Statement

‘Automatically rejecting dissenting views that challenge the conventional wisdom is a dangerous fallacy, for almost every generally accepted view was once deemed eccentric or heretical. Perpetuating the reign of a supposed scientific orthodoxy in this way, whether in a research laboratory or in a court room, is profoundly inimical to the search for truth…’1

Stephen J. Gould

When it comes to the ultimate, vexing questions of origins, life, meaning and purpose, few are as hotly debated as questions about Darwin’s theory of evolution and Intelligent Design theory. For decades there has been much controversy in public and academic circles and although this controversy is most prevalent in America, the heated discussion can be found thriving almost anywhere. Due to the nature of the issues, discussions are often fraught with emotion, ideological baggage, worldview and religious beliefs and so it is often remarkably difficult to get to the truth behind the matters at hand. These questions are so important and attract such passion because they are to do with our own history, nature and origin. As philosopher and mathematician David Berlinski notes ‘There is a wide appreciation of the fact that if biologists are wrong about Darwin, they are wrong about life…’2 They are also important because science is one of the most successful and powerful cultural authorities, and theories firmly held to be true within the scientific community often have a huge influence on how everybody else views the world.

It is true to say that Neo-Darwinism ‘The synthesis of Darwin’s original theory with Mendelian genetics…’3, is zealously affirmed by the majority of those within the scientific community. Biological complexity, they claim, has evolved by natural selection acting upon random/chance genetic mutations, producing descent with modification. Neo-Darwinian theory can be expressed simply in the following way:

RV + NS –> DWM

These are purely non-teleological unguided mechanisms and so it is argued that Neo-Darwinism is sufficient to explain the diversification of all biological life without reference to any creative intelligence. The theory is said to be strongly supported by several different lines of evidence which ‘Taken together…converge to provide a mutually supporting evidential framework.’4, and although the theory has been voluptuously embraced by the majority of the scientific community, it has been rejected with contempt and disdain by many people ever since it was first proposed.

Amongst Darwin dissenters are Creationists who mistakenly oppose it based on their particular literalistic interpretation of the Genesis account of creation. On the other hand many committed atheists attempt to surreptitiously foist a metaphysically naturalistic philosophy onto the theory. Since the majority of the human race is religious in some sense, no wonder it’s opposed and disbelieved by so many! Despite all this it is vital to note that ‘There is an important difference between the biological theory of evolution and the various philosophies that people have tried to derive from it…’5 Neo-Darwinism, if true, would not in any way imply atheism as there are many independent reasons to think that it is false. Also it seems that it is perfectly possible to reconcile scripture with the theory of evolution as Christians are open to a wide variety of interpretations, allowing them to follow the evidence wherever it leads. Science is not in a perpetual conflict with Christianity. The more fundamental question is whether or not Neo-Darwinism is true. I myself do not think so. Being a committed Christian, I used to be a tentative theistic evolutionist but against my will I have recently been persuaded to join another party.

As I have mentioned, the clash between creationism and evolution has a long and turbulent history, but in the last couple of decades the Neo-Darwinian paradigm has been challenged by another voice. This challenge has come from the Intelligent Design movement. They are a small but growing number of scientists and academics from various fields, who believe strongly that Neo-Darwinian theory is inadequate to explain certain physical features within the universe. They also believe that there is positive, scientifically detectable evidence that some form of intelligent agency is involved. Being a born again Darwinian, Richard Dawkins, along with most other evolutionary biologists, affirm that biology is ‘The study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed.’6 The appearance of design being entirely illusory. In contrast, ID theorists believe that ‘…real design exists in nature and is empirically detectable by the methods of science’7 (emphasis added). Philosopher Peter S. Williams succinctly summarizes the core claim of ID theory as claiming that ‘empirical evidence warrants a scientific design inference using reliable design detection criteria.’8

ID advocates claim that to recognise something as having been designed, it needs to exhibit both complexity and specificity. Design theorist William A. Dembski has defended this design detection criteria at length and it is known as “specified complexity”, also referred to as “complex specified information” (CSI). This criterion tells us that ‘Neither complexity without specificity nor specificity without complexity compels us to infer design’9, but a combination of both does. It is important to note that ‘Design detection is used in a number of scientific fields, including anthropology, forensic sciences that seek to explain the cause of events such as a death or fire, cryptanalysis and the search for extra-terrestrial intelligence (SETI)’10, and thus design detection is already used in other scientific circles. Once the design detection criteria is applied to particular features in the universe, design theorists argue that intelligent design can be shown in several areas within nature (this is a point that’s often forgotten by many critics). Proposed areas that claim to exhibit signs of intelligent causation are the information rich structures found in DNA, irreducibly complex bio-molecular machines, the Cambrian explosion, the fine-tuning of our solar system and local habitat, and the fine-tuning of the initial conditions of the universe for the development of carbon based life. Design inferences tend to be more controversial in the area of biology because they suggest that there are certain features that cannot be explained by purely Darwinian processes.

Although the ID movement is growing, it is true to say that the majority of the mainstream scientific community do not accept it. In fact, to say this would be an understatement. There are many people who hold ID theory in such withering contempt, that it probably makes their blood pressure rise to triple digits when they discuss it. Witness chemist Peter Atkins in his remarkably apoplectic review of biochemist Michael Behe’s book Darwin’s Black Box:

‘Dr Behe waves his magic wand, discards the scientific method, and launches into his philosopher’s stone of universal explanation: it was all designed. Presenting this silly, lazy, ignorant, and intellectually abominable view — essentially discarding reason and invoking that first resort of the intellectually challenged (that is, God).’11

Vacuous objurgations such as these are often hurled by many scientists who oppose ID and it often prompts a lapse from the well-ordered decencies of academia. As the controversial movie Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed revealed, opposition amongst the scientific ‘elite’ is often so vociferous that many people who have expressed support for ID, have been ostracized and ‘expelled’ from academia, several supporters losing their jobs.12 As well as provoking indignation amongst many atheistic scientists, it also frustrates many theistic evolutionists and Creationists. Theistic evolutionist Denis Alexander claims that ‘it fails to meet the most basic criteria of scientific theorising and practice.’13 whilst biologist and Catholic Kenneth Miller, one of ID’s most vehement critics, argues that ‘…design is built upon a stunning lack of curiosity and a remarkable unwillingness to embrace scientific discovery. Design rests ultimately on the claim of ignorance…’14 Critics claim incessantly that ID theory is merely a form of “stealth creationism”, that ‘Not a single paper espousing creationism or intelligent design has ever been published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal.’15, and that all of the claims made by ID theorists have been refuted or are devoid of any content.

As mentioned, despite all the controversy and often vituperative debate that this topic provokes, these questions remain at once profound, fascinating and important. As a committed Christian, I used to hold the position of theist evolution but have gradually been persuaded that the Neo-Darwinian synthesis is deficient and that the ID theorists are correct. I think that ID is too often misrepresented, misunderstood and its various criticisms are largely without merit. I also affirm that it is a legitimate scientific theory. My good friend Francis is also a committed Christian but holds to a theistic evolutionary view and so on this issue we are in disagreement. Because we are both fascinated with questions such as these, we have decided to initiate a respectful written dialogue, all of which will gradually be published on both our blogs. It should be said that neither of us are scientists or are formally qualified in the areas pertinent to the issues, but we will attempt to responsibly present research and substantial and informed argumentation. We both hope that readers will find the discussion edifying, thought provoking, and helpful.

References

    1. Brief Amici Curiae of Phys., Scientists, and Historians of Sci. in Support of Petitioners, Daubert v. Merrell Dow Pharmaceuticals, Inc., at 2–6, 509 U.S. 579 (1993) (No. 92–102).
    2. David Berlinski. The Devil’s Delusion: Atheism and its Scientific Pretensions. (United states: Basic Books. 2009). p.186.
    3. Graeme Finlay. Stephen Lloyd. Stephen Pattemore. David Swift. Debating Darwin: Two Debates: Is Darwinism True & Does it Matter? (Milton Keynes: Paternoster Press. 2009). p.X.
    4. ibid. p.131.
    5. Dennis Alexander. Robert S. White. Beyond Belief: Science, Faith and Ethical Challenges. (Oxford: Lion Hudson. 2004). p.106.
    6. Richard Dawkins. The Blind Watchmaker. (New York: W.W. Norton & Company. 1986). p. 1.
    7. Marcus R. Ross. Intelligent Design and Young Earth Creationism: Investigating Nested Hierarchies of Philosophy and Belief. (2003) Available at: http://gsa.confex.com/gsa/2003AM/finalprogram/abstract_58668.htm
    8. Peter S. Williams. The Design Inference from Specified Complexity Defended by Scholars Outside the Intelligent Design Movement: A Critical Review. Philosophia Christi (Vol. 9, Issue 2, 2007). Available at: http://epsociety.org/library/articles.asp?pid=54
    9. Williams. The Design Inference from Specified Complexity Defended by Scholars Outside the Intelligent Design Movement: A Critical Review. Op.cit.
    10. Uncommon Descent. ID Defined. Available at: https://uncommondescent.com/id-defined/. (Accessed 25th August 2011).
    11. The Secular Web. 1998. Peter Atkins Review of Darwin’s Black Box. Available at: http: < http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/peter_atkins/behe.html>. (Accessed 25th August 2011).
    12. Cf. Ben Stein’s Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed (Premise Media/Vivendi Entertainment, 2008).
    13. Denis Alexander. ‘Designs on Science’. Available at: < http://www.bethinking.org/resource.php?ID=260&TopicID=2&CategoryID=1>. (Accessed 26th August 2011).
    14. Kenneth Miller. Only a theory: Evolution and the Battle for America’s Soul. (Viking Penguin: New York. 2008). p.87
    15. Charles Foster. The Selfless Gene: Living With God and Darwin. (Hodder & Stoughton: London. 2009) p. xiv.
Comments
Sorry, Mung; I missed the wink of the eye.Timaeus
September 7, 2012
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Timaeus, My comment about species being immutable within limits was meant tongue in cheek :). They are either mutable or immutable. I often challenge young earth creationists to explain the rate of evolution that must have taken place since the flood in order to explain the vast diversity of species we observe today.Mung
September 7, 2012
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Mung: Whether species are immutable, within limits, is something that I don't claim to have enough knowledge to pronounce upon. I certainly agree that one could never get macroevolution if the only mechanism operating is the Darwinian. But that doesn't mean that macroevolution didn't happen. It just means that, if it happened, something else was driving it -- possibly other natural mechanisms, or possibly God. Ray, as his past posts here and elsewhere show, is committed, for a priori religious reasons, and in advance of reading any scientific research, to the view that macroevolution did not happen. Thus, he is not against just Darwinism, but against any formulation of macroevolution. And that's his right, to be against macroevolution if he wishes. But it's not his right to peddle historical ignorance. It's socially irresponsible to do so. I've challenged him to stop being socially irresponsible, and acquire learning before he speaks. We'll see if he does.Timaeus
September 7, 2012
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Etienne Gilson’s book, from *Aristotle to Darwin and Back Again*. It’s recently been reprinted; you can buy it quite cheaply.
Great book.Mung
September 7, 2012
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Ray Martinez: I don't work for the Discovery Institute. I'm a freelancer. Nor does Francis Smallwood, the person whose words you are criticizing. In fact, Francis Smallwood openly admits to *not* being an ID proponent, so why you would take his view as typical of the people here, or at Discovery, I have no idea. As for your historical remarks, you continue to publically embarrass yourself when you make them. Have you ever set foot inside a library? And if not, how would you know what is "uncontested among scholars"? As for references, I did provide one reference to cover several of the things that I said -- Etienne Gilson's book, from *Aristotle to Darwin and Back Again*. It's recently been reprinted; you can buy it quite cheaply. But I don't expect that you will read it. Your mind is already made up, and you don't want to be confused by the facts. Ray, the reason you are not popular here is that you are a dogmatist. That difficulty could be overcome, however, if you were a dogmatist who was willing to learn. But you aren't. You are still making the same errors you made when you first started posting about evolution on the internet, years ago. There has been no growth, no maturing of your thought. People give you corrections, and you repeat the same errors as if you had not heard them. People give you book recommendations, and you don't read them. People tell you to go back to school and study these subjects, and you won't. Ray, you want people to take your views seriously. There is an easy way to guarantee that they will do that. Learn the subject that you are talking about. If you do that, people will respect what you have to say. If you don't, you will continue to be dismissed as a backwoods "fundy." It's your choice. Let's put this to the test. I've told you about Gilson's book. Now, suppose you withhold all further comments on this site until you have read that book. Suppose that after you have read the book, you post here again, with either (a) a scholarly refutation of Gilson's historical remarks, citing other academic literature of similar quality to show where Gilson was wrong; or (b) a confession Gilson was right, and that you were wrong, about the history of evolutionary theory. If you were to do this, my respect for you would go up, and I would start to take you seriously as a conversation partner. The ball's in your court.Timaeus
September 7, 2012
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Timaeus:
Still beating the same creationist drum, I see.
But species are immutable, within limits.Mung
September 7, 2012
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Timaeus #27 "Still beating the same creationist drum, I see. It’s been explained to you maybe 50 times that “evolution” and “Darwinism” aren’t the same thing, but you persist in identifying them." Discovery Institute propaganda. Darwinism and evolution are perfectly synonymous. Before 1859 species were considered immutable (Darwin 1859:6; London: Murray). Science accepted evolution as explicated by Darwin. It has never looked back since. Because the fact is SO basic, rudimentary and uncontested among scholars, this is why I say the Discovery Institute, as represented here by Timaeus, is engaged in propaganda. These "Christians" and "IDists" stand with Darwin and Dawkins, not science as it existed before the rise of evolution. This is why these persons deny, by assertion, Darwinism and evolution to not be synonymous---as if Darwinism is not about evolution! [snip more long-winded subjective, convoluted and non-referenced propaganda by D.I. apologist Timaeus....] RM (Old Earth Paleyan IDist-species immutabilist)Ray Martinez
September 7, 2012
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For example say there is software, ie something other than matter and energy, inside living organisms. The only way we would even look for such a thing is under the design paradigm, and we would never find it under evolutionism because such a thing couldn't exist under that paradigm. Next say there are limits to which genetic change can alter a population. Well THAT would also be nice to know in order to understand ourselves and the organisms we observe.Joe
September 7, 2012
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Ok Neil, I will help you out- ID is as useful to biology as archaeology and forensics are to other physical sciences. Ya see, Neil, science asks three basic questions, one of which is "how did it come to be this way?". IOW Neil, it matters to an investigation whether or not something was designed- you need to know that before you can understand it.Joe
September 7, 2012
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kairosfocus#30:
Scientific theories must also reasonably be potential truth bearers.
I agree with that. But a theory does not need to be true, in order to be a truth bearer. The English language is a truth bearer. We express a great many truths in English. Nevertheless we see the English language as neither true nor false. We apply assessments of truth to statements expressed in English. Similarly, we assess the truth of statements that are made under a scientific theory.Neil Rickert
September 7, 2012
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Joe#29:
Yeah archaeology and forensics also have nothing to offer science.
You seem to be disagreeing with something that I did not say. My comment was specifically about the usefulness of ID to research in biology. Yes, if ID is found to be true, that might have value in other parts of science, such as an anthropological study of the intelligent designers. What I am doubting, is that it would have any importance within biology.Neil Rickert
September 7, 2012
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Timaeus#28:
In your divorce of science from truth, you are representing one particular position within the philosophy of science, as if there are no others.
Let me be clear here. I did not divorce science from truth. Indeed, truth is very important to science. My comment was specific to scientific theories. There's a lot more to science than theories.
And in fact, some theories have been proved true.
It's an unfortunate fact that the term "theory" is sometimes applied to what should be called an hypothesis. While I say that a theory is neither true nor false, I do not say that an hypothesis is true or false. The whole point of an hypothesis is to assert a tentative belief so that we can investigate whether it is true or false. It may well be that Darwin intended his ideas to be an hypothesis, and did not think of them as a scientific theory. However, they have become a theory because of the way that they are used, the way that they have become a very useful and productive guide to biological research.Neil Rickert
September 7, 2012
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PS: re "It makes no sense to say that heliocentrism is true," let us note that the barycentre of the orbits of the planets are within the sun. And, Mercury's orbital drift that is a support to relativity, is premised on just that, orbiting the sun. Sorry, the frame of reference of the sun is a very valid one for addressing the motion of the planets, which orbit in near ellipses. Don't forget the impact of Galileo's direct observation of moons orbiting Jupiter.kairosfocus
September 7, 2012
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NR: Scientific theories must also reasonably be potential truth bearers. That is, in the end, we are interested to know the truth about the world. The notion that research can be guided is just one factor, if it is allowed to displace others, we can easily have ideological lock-up in a failed paradigm that has too much invested in it by power brokers to be allowed to fail. KFkairosfocus
September 7, 2012
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Neil Rickert:
What matters for a scientific theory, is whether it is useful as a guide to further research. The evidence strongly suggests that neo-Darwinism has been useful and continues to be useful, regardless of whether it is true.
No one uses it Neil- it is a useless heuristic. It doesn't generate any predictions- so what good is it?
As best I can tell, ID is unlikely to be at all useful to further research in biology, even if it turns out to be true.
Yeah archaeology and forensics also have nothing to offer science. :roll:Joe
September 7, 2012
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Neil Rickert: In your divorce of science from truth, you are representing one particular position within the philosophy of science, as if there are no others. But even if we accept your narrow understanding of science, it still does not follow that non-scientific questions are unimportant. They might be very important. The question whether or not neo-Darwinism is true is quite important philosophically and theologically. And of course, you remarks overlook the fact that, even under your model of science, while no theory can ever be proved true, some observations can prove certain theories false. It is imaginable that neo-Darwinian theory could be proved false -- i.e., that it could be shown that random mutations plus natural selection could not deliver the goods. And in fact, some theories have been proved true. William Harvey's theory about the circulation of the blood was for a long time merely one possible explanation of the data; it is now the only possible explanation of the data. The best word in English for that is "true." As for whether ID can be useful as a heuristic in biology, see the writings of Steve Fuller. Historically, design notions have proved useful in every natural science; the contrary view, that everything originates in chance and blind natural laws, has been relatively useless. Newton and Boyle were animated by design thinking: they understood the universe as a planned and structured whole, whose laws were given by God. And of course, the recent blow to the "junk DNA" view indicates that design theory makes much more useful predictions than Darwinism does, so even on your narrow theory of what science is, ID is actually a better scientific approach.Timaeus
September 7, 2012
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Ray Martinez: Still beating the same creationist drum, I see. It's been explained to you maybe 50 times that "evolution" and "Darwinism" aren't the same thing, but you persist in identifying them. Your statements about "evolution" necessarily excluding intelligent causes are simply false. Philosophically false, and historically false. You have not studied the history of the term "evolution." (Or at least, you have relied on intellectually poor creationist sources, instead of serious academic sources.) Originally "evolution" was in fact a *teleological* concept, and when Darwin came along, he *avoided* using the term "evolution" for a long time precisely for that reason. The word "evolved" occurs only once in *The Origin of Species*, and only at the end. Later Darwin acceded to the usage that became common, the usage that identified his theory as a theory of "evolution"; and later still, people started speaking of "*the* theory of evolution" as if it were identical with "Darwinism" -- which it never was. You can read a good academic account of all this in Gilson's book on Aristotle and Darwin. There have been many theories of what in Darwin's day and later was often called "transformism" -- the view that some species have changed into other species. Each theory offers its own scientific or metaphysical "mechanism" by which such changes could occur. Darwin offered one view -- the main agent of change was natural selection acting on heritable variation. Others offered other views. Lamarck, Bergson, etc. You clearly have not studied the very wide range of evolutionary views, and have wrongly identified "evolution" with "Darwinism." This indicates to me that your reading comes largely from popular rather than scholarly sources. None of your quotations from Darwin prove what you are trying to prove from them. That Darwin did not believe the stories of the Old Testament were true does not make him a materialist. Certainly he was a "naturalist" -- thought that the origin of species could be explained wholly by natural causes, given a universe operating by natural laws (which he as often as not supposed to have been established by God). He may also, at some points in his life, have been nearly a "materialist" -- holding the belief that nothing other than matter exists, not even God. But in his biology he never argued from materialism as a philosophical position. His work presupposes only the more modest claim of naturalism, i.e., that if there is a God, he never operates except through the natural causes that he has ordained. There is only one point in your diatribe that is valid. It is wrong simply to "assume" the existence of a macroevolutionary process, as Francis Smallwood does. There is circumstantial evidence for such a process, but it is not so firmly established that it can be taken as a simple fact. But the arguments against such a process must come from science, not from the Bible -- that is, if you are going to claim that macroevolution is bad *science* (as opposed to bad theology). So raving about how Darwin rejected the Old Testament accomplishes nothing. You have to show why the circumstantial evidence that seems to point to evolution is counteracted by biological, geological, and other data, and why evolution is not the most parsimonious explanation of the data.Timaeus
September 7, 2012
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@dregstudios First time I've seen you here, so welcome to UD :) I'd like to oppose your claim:
There is no argument against the Theory of Evolution other than that of religious doctrine.
Evolution could not produce a human from a chimp-like ancestor in periods even much longer than 6m years. Take HIV and p. falciparum (common human malaria), two examples from Michael Behe’s book, Edge of Evolution. Due to their short generation times and staggering populations, in the last several decades, each have had around a million times more selection and mutation events than humans would've had since a chimp divergence. Yet they’ve each developed 1 and 0 new protein-protein binding sites, respectively, and HIV has had a duplicated a gene. Other microbes have also shown remarkable little evolution over similarly vast and rapidly reproducing populations. But in the same time, humans would have needed to develop around 280 -1400 proteins of novel function (depending on which study you read and how "novel" is defined) through processes of duplications, fusions, de novo from junk DNA, and some without homologs at all. Give a million times less opportunity, hominins would have had to evolve a thousand times faster. Evolution is a billion times too slow. But even that's too conservative, since: 1. Sexual recombination slows macroevolution, (summary) 2. Epigenetic changes that form gene networks add another layer of complexity not accounted for here, causing the road from micro to macro to be logarithmic, not linear. 3. Some microbes show similarly little-to-no evolution over not just dozens, but millions of years. 4. Our high mutation rate of 30-60 SNP's gives the fittest members of every primate population (including humans) multiple deleterious mutations (most slightly, like rust on a car), causing a net decrease in fitness every generation. Yet beneficials take thousands of years to appear and fixate. Evolution is one step forward, two thousand backward. If you need me to, I can provide more details or sources for any of these claims. As it is, I'm trying to avoid spamming the thread.JoeCoder
September 6, 2012
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As best I can tell, ID is unlikely to be at all useful to further research in biology, even if it turns out to be true.
That is a valid concern, but consider this -- if we are de-evolving, losing complexity and getting sicker, etc., that has medical significance. It may well be that real evolution is loss of integrated complexity, not acquisition of it. This has implications for understanding the human condition and eco systems. Secondly, if steganography is true, it will enable biolgoical understanding and medical science in ways we never dreamed. See: How IDists can win the warscordova
September 6, 2012
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Francis Smallwood: The statement that ‘life has evolved’ is uncontroversial (at least it should be!) and accepted by me and Joshua, although perhaps to slightly different degrees. So it is not a debate over evolution, as such, but a debate over causal mechanisms. Imagine that; two Christians who accept the MAIN CLAIM of Darwinism (= Materialism)! "But I had gradually come, by this time [1837-1838], to see that the Old Testament from its manifestly false history of the world, with the Tower of Babel, the rainbow as a sign, etc., etc., and from its attributing to God the feelings of a revengeful tyrant, was no more to be trusted than the sacred books of the Hindoos, or the beliefs of any barbarian" (Darwin, Autobio: 85). Darwin rejected the Bible during the same two years in which he "clearly conceived" his fully material theory of evolution (Darwin, Autobio: 124). In short, our two "Christians" are standing with closet Atheist Charles Darwin and fanatical Atheist Richard Dawkins. ***** Their "debate" presupposes the truth of evolution and the only thing up for grabs is how evolution occurs! Imagine that; an alleged IDist accepts the MAIN CLAIM of his sworn enemy (Darwinism)! Are we to believe Joshua Gidney does NOT know that evolution was accepted as fully material and unintelligent?---that there is no such thing as "Intelligent evolution"? If Intelligence is involved with biological production then no effect can be described as having evolved. Effects must be described in terms supporting teleology, like design. Why must an IDist be told these 101 facts? Answer: Because our "IDist" is really an Evolutionist, and an ignorant one at that. We should not be viewed as attacking poor Joshua Gidney; for his position is Dembski's position undoubtedly. Are we to believe the super-educated William Dembski does not know that effects cannot be called evolutionary if caused by Intelligence? Since Dembski has spoken up for evolution the issue is moot. He now must defend the "logic" of "Intelligence created unintelligent process." And if the process is not unintelligent why call it evolution? One cannot have it both ways since evolution is inextricably associated with unintelligence. Ray Martinez (Old Earth, Paleyan IDist-species immutabilist)Ray Martinez
September 6, 2012
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The more fundamental question is whether or not Neo-Darwinism is true.
No, that is not an important question at all. What matters for a scientific theory, is whether it is useful as a guide to further research. The evidence strongly suggests that neo-Darwinism has been useful and continues to be useful, regardless of whether it is true. As best I can tell, ID is unlikely to be at all useful to further research in biology, even if it turns out to be true. My own personal view: A scientific theory is neither true nor false. And that's because a scientific theory is not a description of the world. Rather, it is a system of practices and standards to be followed by the scientists in their research. I'll illustrate this with the example of heliocentrism. It makes no sense to say that heliocentrism is true. Einstein taught us that there is no such thing as absolute motion; there is only relative motion. If we want a true statement about the sun and earth, we should say that both are hurtling through the cosmos in intertwining paths. What heliocentrism gives us, is a standardized way of making observations and of interpreting observations. And that is part of what makes it more useful than the true statement about intertwining paths. By the way, I have bookmarked the blogs of you and your opponent, where you have been having this debate. I'll spend some time looking through the argument. I've read the intros, and they promise a good discussion. So thanks for bringing this to our attention.Neil Rickert
September 6, 2012
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Bits of Mystery DNA, Far From ‘Junk,’ Play Crucial Role - September 2012 Excerpt: The system, though, is stunningly complex, with many redundancies. Just the idea of so many switches was almost incomprehensible, Dr. Bernstein said. There also is a sort of DNA wiring system that is almost inconceivably intricate. “It is like opening a wiring closet and seeing a hairball of wires,” said Mark Gerstein, an Encode researcher from Yale. “We tried to unravel this hairball and make it interpretable.” There is another sort of hairball as well: the complex three-dimensional structure of DNA. Human DNA is such a long strand — about 10 feet of DNA stuffed into a microscopic nucleus of a cell — that it fits only because it is tightly wound and coiled around itself. When they looked at the three-dimensional structure — the hairball — Encode researchers discovered that small segments of dark-matter DNA are often quite close to genes they control. In the past, when they analyzed only the uncoiled length of DNA, those controlling regions appeared to be far from the genes they affect. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/06/science/far-from-junk-dna-dark-matter-proves-crucial-to-health.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all
bornagain77
September 6, 2012
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"There is no argument against the Theory of Evolution other than that of religious doctrine."
Nonsense. Show me how random mutations + natural selection was responsible for the development of any novel cell type, tissue type, organ or body plan. Please provide a blow by blow, gap free account. Thank you. P.S. I'm not religious.CentralScrutinizer
September 5, 2012
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Here in TN, they have taken steps though new legislation to allow creationism back into the classroom. This law turns the clock back nearly 100 years here in the seemingly unprogressive South and is simply embarrassing. There is no argument against the Theory of Evolution other than that of religious doctrine. The Monkey Law only opens the door for fanatic Christianity to creep its way back into our classrooms. You can see my visual response as a Tennessean to this absurd law on my artist’s blog at http://dregstudiosart.blogspot.com/2012/04/pulpit-in-classroom-biblical-agenda-in.html with some evolutionary art and a little bit of simple logic.dregstudios
September 5, 2012
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Possible "onion test" solution- onion test:
The onion test is a simple reality check for anyone who thinks they have come up with a universal function for non-coding DNA. Whatever your proposed function, ask yourself this question: Can I explain why an onion needs about five times more non-coding DNA for this function than a human? Further, if you think perhaps onions are somehow special, consider that members of the genus Allium range in genome size from 7 pg to 31.5 pg. So why can A. altyncolicum make do with one fifth as much regulation, structural maintenance, protection against mutagens, or [insert preferred universal function] as A. ursinum?
Why do older computers contain more parts than their modern counterparts? Why are older computer codes longer and more cumbersome than their modern counterparts? The point is some designs just require more parts. Multiple designers or one designer trying new/ different things. For example think of how large our genome would have to be if it wasn't for alternative (gene) splicing allowing for more proteins than there are genes. A genome without that functionality would need more DNA for those gene products that cannot be manufactured via alternative splicing. Or even, as another pro-ID blogger put it:
What could some onion “junk” DNA be used for? Well, unlike humans, onions can't control their environment or move away from it. Onions have no choice but to adapt. It could be that onions were designed with a lot of adaptive capacitance allowing its descendents to change into different kinds of onions that could thrive in many different environments. Deletion of DNA used for adaptive capacitance could then still easily result in a viable onion. It would be an onion with less adaptive capacitance than the original but still able to produce offspring that could thrive in the current environment. Multiple lines of deletion of DNA used for adaptive capacitance could also result in speciation and account for the various DNA sizes for different species of onion. The idea of adaptive capacitance is hardly far-fetched. We already know that stem cells change into other types of cells even though most of the cell types that derive from stem cells have the same DNA coding. In fact, this hypothesis that some non-coding DNA may serve as adaptive capacitance has already been unwittingly tested at least once. PZ Myers describes the experiment in his blog here. To summarize, the experiment involved moving 10 lizards out of their environment to the tiny island of Pod Mrcaru. After only 36 years these lizards changed into a different kind of lizard. There were changes to their skulls, limbs and even personality. Even more remarkable is the fact that their digestive system “evolved” cecal valves allowing them to digest a broader range of plant material. It’s just plain silly to think that this could be the result random mutation and natural selection over the course of just 36 years (could someone please do the math). This could only happen if previously existing information in the collective genomes of these lizards was selected in response to the environment.
Joe
September 5, 2012
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Junk No More: ENCODE Project Nature Paper Finds "Biochemical Functions for 80% of the Genome" - Casey Luskin September 5, 2012 Excerpt: The Discover Magazine article further explains that the rest of the 20% of the genome is likely to have function as well: "And what's in the remaining 20 percent? Possibly not junk either, according to Ewan Birney, the project's Lead Analysis Coordinator and self-described "cat-herder-in-chief". He explains that ENCODE only (!) looked at 147 types of cells, and the human body has a few thousand. A given part of the genome might control a gene in one cell type, but not others. If every cell is included, functions may emerge for the phantom proportion. "It's likely that 80 percent will go to 100 percent," says Birney. "We don't really have any large chunks of redundant DNA. This metaphor of junk isn't that useful."" We will have more to say about this blockbuster paper from ENCODE researchers in coming days, but for now, let's simply observe that it provides a stunning vindication of the prediction of intelligent design that the genome will turn out to have mass functionality for so-called "junk" DNA. ENCODE researchers use words like "surprising" or "unprecedented." They talk about of how "human DNA is a lot more active than we expected." But under an intelligent design paradigm, none of this is surprising. In fact, it is exactly what ID predicted. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/09/junk_no_more_en_1064001.html
bornagain77
September 5, 2012
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Thanks Colin... Off-topic but awesome2: Junk DNA debunked: Here is a video from Channel 4 news (UK). Scientists go deeper into DNA (Video report) http://bcove.me/26vjjl5amelvinvines
September 5, 2012
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Of Related note: The information density found in DNA is many orders of magnitude greater than anything man has yet designed in computer memory:
Harvard cracks DNA storage, crams 700 terabytes of data into a single gram - Sebastian Anthony - August 17, 2012 Excerpt: A bioengineer and geneticist at Harvard’s Wyss Institute have successfully stored 5.5 petabits of data — around 700 terabytes — in a single gram of DNA, smashing the previous DNA data density record by a thousand times.,,, Just think about it for a moment: One gram of DNA can store 700 terabytes of data. That’s 14,000 50-gigabyte Blu-ray discs… in a droplet of DNA that would fit on the tip of your pinky. To store the same kind of data on hard drives — the densest storage medium in use today — you’d need 233 3TB drives, weighing a total of 151 kilos. In Church and Kosuri’s case, they have successfully stored around 700 kilobytes of data in DNA — Church’s latest book, in fact — and proceeded to make 70 billion copies (which they claim, jokingly, makes it the best-selling book of all time!) totaling 44 petabytes of data stored. http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/134672-harvard-cracks-dna-storage-crams-700-terabytes-of-data-into-a-single-gram Information Storage in DNA by Wyss Institute - video https://vimeo.com/47615970 DNA Stores Data More Efficiently than Anything We've Created - Casey Luskin - August 29, 2012 Excerpt: Nothing made by humans can approach these kind of specs. Who would have thought that DNA can store data more efficiently than anything we've created. But DNA wasn't designed -- right? http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/08/who_would_have_063701.html 3-D Structure Of Human Genome: Fractal Globule Architecture Packs Two Meters Of DNA Into Each Cell - Oct. 2009 Excerpt: the information density in the nucleus is trillions of times higher than on a computer chip -- while avoiding the knots and tangles that might interfere with the cell's ability to read its own genome. Moreover, the DNA can easily unfold and refold during gene activation, gene repression, and cell replication. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091008142957.htm Biochemical Turing Machines “Reboot” the Watchmaker Argument - Fazale Rana - July 2012 Excerpt: Researchers recognize several advantages to DNA computers.(7) One is the ability to perform a massive number of operations at the same time (in parallel) as opposed to one at a time (serially) as demanded by silicon-based computers. Secondly, DNA has the capacity to store an enormous quantity of information. One gram of DNA can house as much information as nearly 1 trillion CDs. And a third benefit is that DNA computing operates near the theoretical capacity with regard to energy efficiency. http://stevebrownetc.com/2012/07/02/biochemical-turing-machines-%E2%80%9Creboot%E2%80%9D-the-watchmaker-argument/
For comparison sake the following, is the extremely meager result that man has accomplished using all his brain power trying to get purely material processes to generate DNA/RNA molecules:
Scientists Say Intelligent Designer Needed for Origin of Life Chemistry Excerpt: Organic chemist Dr. Charles Garner recently noted in private correspondence that "while this work helps one imagine how RNA might form, it does nothing to address the information content of RNA. So, yes, there was a lot of guidance by an intelligent chemist." Sutherland's research produced only 2 of the 4 RNA nucleobases, and Dr. Garner also explained why, as is often the case, "the basic chemistry itself also required the hand of an intelligent chemist." http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/07/scientists_say_intelligent_des.html Stirring the Soup - May 2009 "essentially, the scientists have succeeded in creating a couple of letters of the biological alphabet (in a "thermodynamically uphill" environment). What they need to do now is create the remaining letters, and then show how these letters were able to attach themselves together to form long chains of RNA, and arrange themselves in a specific order to encode information for creating specific proteins, and instructions to assemble the proteins into cells, tissues, organs, systems, and finally, complete phenotypes." Uncommon Descent - C Bass: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/stirring-the-soup/#comments Origin of Life: Claiming Something for Almost Nothing Excerpt: A press release from the University of Colorado advertised a paper by Michael Yarus and team in PNAS.1 The team, funded by a $415,610 grant from the National Institutes of Health, concocted a “Tiny RNA Molecule With Big Implications for the Origin of Life.” It’s the smallest ribozyme yet, with only five nucleotides, and it is able to “catalyze a key reaction that would be needed to synthesize proteins.” Tom Blumenthal, a colleague working with Yarus, said, “Nobody expected an RNA molecule this small and simple to be able to do such a complicated thing as that.” By implication, this ribozyme could have been a stepping stone on the way to larger and more complex molecules of life. Yarus has been a strong proponent of the “RNA World” hypothesis. The team’s findings argue that RNA enzymes (ribozymes) did not have to be as complex at first to have a function. He said, “If there exists that kind of mini-catalyst, a ‘sister’ to the one we describe, the world of the replicators would also jump a long step closer and we could really feel we were closing in on the first things on Earth that could undergo Darwinian evolution.” He refers to the fact that Darwinian evolution by natural selection cannot be invoked till there is a replicator – a system able to duplicate its parts accurately. Yarus admitted, “the tiny replicator has not been found, and that its existence will be decided by experiments not yet done, perhaps not yet imagined.” But does this work support a naturalistic origin of life? A key question is whether the molecule would form under plausible prebiotic conditions. Here’s how the paper described their work in the lab to get this molecule: RNA was synthesized by Dharmacon. GUGGC = 5’-GUGGC-30 ; GCCU – 5’P-GCCU-3’ ; 5’OH-GCCU = 5’-GCCU-3’ ; GCCU20dU = 5’-GCC-2’-dU; GCC = 5’-GCC-3’ ; dGdCdCrU = 5’-dGdCdCU-3’ . RNA GCC3’dU was prepared by first synthesizing 5’-O-(4,4’- Dimethoxytrityl)3’-deoxyuridine as follows: 3’-deoxyuridine (MP Biomedicals; 991 mg, 0.434 mmol) was dissolved in 5 mL anhydrous pyridine and pyridine was then removed under vacuum while stirring. Solid was then redissolved in 2 mL pyridine. Dimethoxytrityl chloride (170 mg, 0.499 mmol) was dissolved in 12 mL pyridine and slowly added to 3’-deoxyuridine solution. Solution was stirred at room temperature for 4 h. All solutions were sequestered from exposure to air throughout. Reaction was then quenched by addition of 5 mL methanol, and solvent was removed by rotary evaporation. Remaining solvent evaporated overnight in a vacuum chamber. Product was then dissolved in 1 mL acetonitrile and purified through a silica column (acetonitrile elution). Final product fractions (confirmed through TLC, 1.1 hexane:acetonitrile) were pooled and rotary evaporated. Yield was 71%. Dimethoxytrityl-protected 30dU was then sent to Dharmacon for immobilization of 30-dU on glass and synthesis of 5’-GCC-3’-dU. PheAMP, PheUMP, and MetAMP were synthesized by the method of Berg (25) with modifications and purification as described in ref. 6. Yield was as follows: PheAMP 85%, PheUMP 67%, and MetAMP 36%. Even more purification and isolation steps under controlled conditions, using multiple solvents at various temperatures, were needed to prevent cross-reactions. It is doubtful such complex lab procedures have analogues in nature. http://www.creationsafaris.com/crev201003.htm#20100302a
bornagain77
September 5, 2012
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JoeCoder you are much too modest:
Here is a good summary by JoeCoder of exactly why the chromosome 2 argument fails https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/spring-it-on-em-and-watch-the-fur-fly/#comment-431951 further notes debunking Chromosome 2 argument: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1enllGchcY4Thz0xWFG8Rj8Y0bddOcBdIzKeoY1XxSqs/edit
As well JLAfan2001, I seriously, if I were you, would not place any of my money on the remaining 20% being found to be non-functional Junk as you seem to be so anxious to do:
What Is The Genome? It's Certainly Not Junk! - Dr. Robert Carter - video - (Notes in video description) http://www.metacafe.com/w/8905583 Multidimensional Genome - Dr. Robert Carter - video (Notes in video description) http://www.metacafe.com/w/8905048 The Extreme Complexity Of Genes - Dr. Raymond G. Bohlin - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/8593991/ The Mysterious Epigenome. What lies beyond DNA - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpXs8uShFMo
bornagain77
September 5, 2012
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Off-topic but awesome: Junk DNA debunked: http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/junk-dna-concept-debunked-by-new-analysis-of-human-genome/2012/09/05/cf296720-f772-11e1-8398-0327ab83ab91_story.html?hpid=z3Collin
September 5, 2012
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