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Freud and Darwin II

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I was originally going to post this as a response to David Coppedge’s post, but it got too long.

The relationship between Freud and Darwin – both intellectually and institutionally – is more complicated than has been suggested here.

Although Freud had top-notch academic credentials, his career was always that of an outsider, whose main constituency was in the larger public intellectual culture and well-educated middle class people who were his client base. (Freud’s books won literary prizes, not scientific ones.) One way you can see Freud’s outsider status is that he was never granted a professorship even though he tried several times. While his theories were somewhat embraced by medical schools (peaking in the US in the 1950s), experimental psychologists, while of course familiar with his claims, generally kept their distance. In fact, Freud’s fall from grace has been really from psychiatry, which is the only field within striking distance of natural science in which he was ever held in grace.

However, it’s only been since the 1970s that Freud has been shunned specifically because his theories and treatments don’t work. Before that time, he was shunned because of what we would now regard as the interdisciplinary character of his work: He borrowed things from a lot of disciplines, and so it was always hard to test anything he said. For example, already in the 1920s Karl Popper was talking about psychoanalysis as ‘unfalsifiable’ rather than simply false. Nowadays people are more comfortable saying Freud is false.

As for Darwin, he certainly influenced Freud. But more to the point, until 1920s or possibly even 1930s, Darwin’s and Freud’s theories were subject to roughly the same degree of (dis)approval – in both cases, questions were asked whether their rather ‘big picture’ explanations could ever be tested properly, or whether they were even necessary for the conduct of empirical work in, respectively, biology and psychology. However, by the 1940s, Darwin’s theory had come to be embraced by leading biologists (outside the USSR and possibly France) as providing a valid explanatory framework. Why Darwin managed to achieve that status, while Freud never did is the interesting comparative question to ask.

Let me suggest the following: The people originally behind the Neo-Darwinian synthesis in the 1930s, whatever their (typically pro-) views about eugenics, downplayed, if not outright denied, Darwinism’s significance for explaining human behaviour. In fact, this strategy worked well for about 40 years – until E.O. Wilson published Sociobiology and Richard Dawkins published The Selfish Gene. Not surprisingly, Darwinism has come to attract an increasing amount suspicion and scepticism, once its implications for the human condition have become clearer. In contrast, Freud could never hide that his theory was about the human condition, and so accordingly it has always been under a cloud.

In short, if you want to turn Darwin into the next Freud, evolutionary psychologists should keep on coming up with the back-of-the-envelope ‘my reptilian brain made me do it’ explanations that Denyse O’Leary regularly skewers on this blog. Freudians were skewered by similar means in their day.

Comments
Mr DATCG, Thank you, but in Sulloway and 'Freud and His Critics' we are already at a second and third remove from Freud himself. What I can see in the quotes from Freud brought so far, Freud was quite aware of Darwin. Yes, who couldn't be at that time and place in intellectual history! But as in th equote about religion brought by Mr Tribune7, Freud shows he is willing to borrow the vocabulary of 'evolution' that was current in order to justify by analogy a theory of mind that was not itself derived from evolutionary ideas. For example, where in Freud is common descent? Natural selection? The development of the human mind from the needs of more primitive life? As a doctor, not a 'scientist' in the modern sense, Freud built and revised his theory on the fly. It doesn't seem to have a stable foundation in anything beyond Freud's personal experiences. IMHO!Nakashima
October 16, 2009
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Nakashima, Do you require more information about Freud's thoughts on Darwin?DATCG
October 16, 2009
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continued from Freud and His Crtics... The author here is critical of Freud's critic - Sulloway: "The unconscious, after all, belongs uncompromisingly to the realm of the psychological. Accordingly, it is neglected. I hardly need add that this neglect stands in stark contrast to Freud’s own assessment of its significance. The unconscious was for him his single most important contribution, an idea of truly epochal consequence, whose discovery he compared, in a famous passage, to the revolutions in thought brought about by Copernicus and Darwin before him." So, Freud himself was comparing himself to Darwin's momentous "revolution" as well as Copernicus. So we establish not just Freud's awareness of Darwin, but of his thoughts of Darwin as one of the most important revolutions in science of the three - including arrogantly his own. "Just as Copernicus had removed humanity from the center of the universe and Darwin denied it any special place in the hierarchy of nature, so Freud himself, he boasted, had delivered an even more devastating insult to mankind’s self-confidence." Well, well... and thus he see's himself as an equal with Darwin in removing man from his high place. You'd think Freud would know about the fallen state of Adam, but I'd be digressing. Freud... "“Human megalomania will have suffered its third and most wounding blow from the psychological research of the present time which seeks to prove to the ego that it is not even master in its own house, but must content itself with scanty information of what is going on unconsciously in its mind.”[4]" We are meaninglessly placed in an obscure darkness of a far flung universe, made up of Darwin's evolutionary tales over billions of years and we cannot trust our own minds to tell us the truth. Does that sum it up well? Here is Freud making the argument for all theist today. Thank you kindly Sigmund. "In Sulloway’s interpretation, this “Freudian revolution” effectively collapses." Yes, but it supports the argument that atheist can't have a clue. Whereas theist do.DATCG
October 16, 2009
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It does not appear to be a controversial issue given Freud's atheism and the times. And the circles of people and influences in his life.DATCG
October 16, 2009
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More from Freud and his Critics:
Sulloway’s placing of Freud between Darwin and Wilson suggests a more general tactic of his reinterpretation. He is eager to disabuse us of the notion that Freud conceived his ideas in intellectual isolation. The legend, Sulloway contends, has greatly overstated Freud’s independence and originality. Not only did Freud enjoy the sustaining inspiration of Darwin, but he also made his critical discoveries within a rich context of contemporary intellectual influences. Wilhelm Fliess, to whose relationship with Freud Sulloway devotes his two central chapters, was only the most prominent among those influences. Whether by way of personal and professional association (as with Fliess, Jean Martin Charcot, and Josef Breuer) or by way of books and correspondence (as with the sexologists Havelock Ellis and Albert Moll), Freud developed his ideas not through courageous and lonely self-examination but through the familiar vehicle of intellectual dialogue. Sulloway argues, in particular, that the figures who influenced Freud most profoundly shared the evolutionary assumptions and modes of reasoning that constitute the “hidden rationality” of psychoanalysis.
book link: Darwin query search DATCG
October 16, 2009
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More quotes from books on Freud...
Freud, Biologist of the Mind—whose subtitle is Beyond the Psychoanalytic Legend—is thus as much an attack on the hagiographic proclivities of traditional scholarship on Freud as it is a revisionist interpretation of the psychoanalytic revolution. Freud’s ideas, Sulloway insists, are simply an offshoot of the Darwinian paradigm that has dominated biological thought from the late nineteenth century to the present.
DATCG
October 16, 2009
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Nakashima, I put forth several quotes about Freud in Mr. Coppedge's post. It took all of 20secs to find. Maybe you doubt the source I list. But it is not a conservative site. Freud was an atheist and was disgusted by religion. He would naturally look to Darwin's evolution. Are you denying Freud was influenced by Darwin? Here is another story about Freud from Jewish World Review... "A great amount of scholars have discussed and criticized Freud's theory. Clearly, Freud was influenced by Darwin and Robertson Smith, two dominating figures in the 19th century who initiated the "primal horde" theory. Modern anthropologists have rejected this theory. (See H.L. Phillip, Freud and Religious belief, London, Rocklif, 1956.)" I guess, what you're saying is many people are wrong to connect Freud to Darwin? http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0601/freud.aspDATCG
October 16, 2009
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Dr Fuller--thank you for the clarifications graciously stated.David Coppedge
October 16, 2009
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I always think of Frued, anologically, as a kind of intellectual magician. He creates an alluszion that has the weak minded masses convinced- though nobody really banks on his magic being 100% true reality. There is somthing obviously missing between the translation of one's fear of spiders and their sexual difficulties regarding the relationships with their mother or wemon in general. Meanwhile Darwin plays his charade by getting you to focus on his right hand which holds a picture representing a system of statistical chance- while his other hand slips in complex positive genetic changes. I think the Platonist have it right when they see language as objective nothing more than an allusion of the mind. Perhaps Popper is right that it is the lack of falsifiability in both instances (DE and PA) that prevents them from attaining the reality of true theories like general relativity. If the question is whether Darwinism and Fruedianism is false or just merely unfalsifiable doctrines- I would hold the position that they are neither false nor unfalsifiable doctrines but in fact analogical allusions. Belive in Fruedianism while the pschiatrist pciks your pocket- and belive in evolution while the fittness landscapes cannot be purchased within the theory. Oh, and btw, believe in Marx while the government taxes you into oblivion. We can all be happy, equally poor, disabled, bi-polar schizophrenic atheists, if we would just listen to and accept the intellectual consensus on all of this. We might even be able to stop global warming. And certainly this would all be for the benefit of humanity- and not for the government, the medical industry, and public sector's teacher's unions. Watch the left hand. Pay no attention to the right.Frost122585
October 16, 2009
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Steve, help yourself to another skewer and load it up. There's plenty in the kitchen. The problem with evolutionary psychology is that it is a discipline without a subject. Old Stone Age man lived and died without leaving a memoire. We know only a very little about him. He often buried his dead in the hope of rising again (tucked into a fetal position, with grave gifts). But he never wrote a theological tract. As for pre-humans, we know nothing at all. I can't understand dogs or cats in the present day very well, so once we have defined something as "not human", you are telling me I can't understand it. So I just don't know, and bet no one else does very well either. I remember a vet confessing to me, in despair, "The trouble is, I cannot ask him what is happening." Why I didn't believe Freudians decades ago: Occultism. = A charge once levelled at me: "You say that because you hate your mother." All the external evidence is against that view. Freud is for it. Who to believe? You don't need to believe either Freud or me, but you might want to look at the external evidence before coming to a reasonable conclusion. Oh wait. According to Ivy League's Steve Pinker, our brains are shaped for fitness, not for truth, so what is reasonable does not matter anyway. And where does THAT leave you? Well then, fast forward to evolutionary psychology. Now the beauty with evolutionary psychology is, as noted above, that it moves the whole story beyond any reach of disconfirmation. No one knows what was fit for Old Stone Age man, beyond the reach of common sense, which you don't need an expensive education or a degree to figure out. Like, it was better to hunt and fish than whine and loaf, and it was better to have two legs than one, but ... I should get a degree for realizing this fact? See, that was Freud's big problem. Live people can disprove and disclaim stupid opinions by the witness of their own lives. But long dead people can't similarly blow it all out of the water. So evolutionary psychology is, in some ways, a much better racket than Freud. But it is a racket. Once you have loaded up your skewer, put it on the grill and turn it every 60 seconds.O'Leary
October 16, 2009
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Dr Fuller, Here, here to skewering tomfoolery. But could you document more clearly the influence you think Darwin had on Freud? I found, by the power of GreyskullGoogle, this in a review of a book trying to make that connection In publications and letters Freud referred to Darwin about 20 times, generally with respect, but did not endorse the idea of natural selection. I would be interested in other opinions. I feel we are edging further away from Mr Coppedge's "largely influenced".Nakashima
October 16, 2009
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