Great TED Talks vid: Human life from conception to birth

_{Denyse O'Leary

November 15, 2011

Biology, News, Video}

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StephenB: You said, "It also means that the individual life that does begin, begins at conception because there is no place else that it can begin." The question is not when does the individual life begin, the question at issues is when does the HUMAN BEING begin, and I can think of two other perfectly defensible answers: My own answer: a human being begins when the incoming soul merges with the body and brain of the fetus, some time during the third trimester when the brain is sufficiently developed for this to occur. The US Supreme Court's answer: a human being begins when the fetus is capable of surviving on its own, outside of the womb, again some time during the third trimester.Bruce David_{November 16, 2011
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Why would a scientifically literate person deny the obvious biological fact that human embryos are human beings? For ideological reasons, of course. Recognition of the humanity of unborn children is anathema to supporters of abortion. Dehumanization of children in the womb makes abortion easier to accept morally. - Michael Egnorbornagain77_{November 16, 2011
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Bruce: Science can answer the question in part and philosophy can close the loop. According to science, life doesn’t begin. It is a force already in existence that is transmitted from generation to generation. Life flows. There are no discrete intervals or points at which life starts, stops, and starts again, nor are there any discrete intervals or points at which humanity starts, stops, and starts again. Once the parents’ human life gives way to another life, that life is, and must be, human. It also means that the individual life that does begin, begins at conception because there is no place else that it can begin.StephenB_{November 16, 2011
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Bornagain, Your saying that an embryo is "a human" (meaning a human being) is equivalent to the statement that an acorn is an oak tree. I'll wager that you will not find a statement anywhere in any biology text to the effect that an acorn is an oak tree. Under the proper conditions, it will BECOME an oak tree, but if something will BECOME something else, then necessarily it isn't that thing at present (a thing cannot, after all, become something it already is). And an embryo isn't a human being unless you define it as such, and such a definition is not a statement of biology, it is a statement of religion or philosophy.Bruce David_{November 16, 2011
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Bruce you are the one trying to impose your philosophical preference for abortion onto the purely biological fact that the human embryo IS A HUMAN. Abortionists continually try to mislead people into thinking that they are not really dealing with a actual human yet the plain biological, and thus scientific, fact is that there is no point, in biological development, at which the human embryo is considered anything other than a human!!!. ,,, Because this scientific fact disagrees so strongly with your philosophical bias for abortion you tried to say (misdirect) that the 'hair, appendix, and unfertilized egg' also qualify as fully human so as to deny the clear biological fact that the human embryo is in fact a human. But clearly this is not true for hair, appendix and unfertilized egg, that's what makes you dishonest or ignorant!!!. ,,, Don't be upset at me, I'm merely 'defending the science' which you so quickly mangled to support your philosophy,,, If you want to 'debate the philosophy' over your pro-abortion views, I will not do it for I find your philosophical views completely incoherent, I will merely defend the purely biological fact that a human embryo IS A HUMAN!!! But for 'philosophy, Dr. Egnor has excellent pro-life articles in that 'philosophical' area as well,,,, if you are interested:
NCSE's Joshua Rosenau on Abortion and Murder - Michael Egnor http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/12/ncses_joshua_rosenau_my_abhorr042101.html I Answer Tantalus Prime's Queries About Abortion - Michael Egnor http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/12/in_which_i_answer_tantalus_pri041981.html "But Tantalus, are you saying there are individuals who have more humanity than others?!" http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/01/but_tantalus_are_you_saying_th043311.html
bornagain77_{November 16, 2011
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News: Are you going to let Bornagain77 get away with calling me ignorant or dishonest? Bornagain: As usual, you confuse your opinion with the truth. Whether cells contain human DNA or not is a question that biology can answer. Whether a group of cells will develop into a human body if left in utero is a question that biology can answer, at least in principle. Whether a particular group of cells constitutes a human BEING or not is NOT question that biology can answer. It is a question for philosophy or even simply a matter of definition. And there is plenty of debate about what exactly a human being is. You and I are debating it right now, for example, and there are many, many different opinions on that question, which are debated many, many times in many different contexts. You can deny it all you want, use as much boldface type as you feel like, but it won't change the fact one iota.Bruce David_{November 16, 2011
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Hi Eric, Once again, I clicked the wrong button a a couple of times and my response to you ended up in the wrong place. See 4.1.1.1 below.Bruce David_{November 16, 2011
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Hi Eric, To your question, "Just out of curiosity, where would you view human life as beginning?", my view is that the fetus becomes a human being at the point at which the soul takes up residence in the developing body, and this happens some time during the third trimester when the brain is sufficiently developed for the soul to merge its intelligence with it. My basis for this understanding is primarily the remarkable books, "Journey of Souls" and "Destiny of Souls" by Michael Newton. Regarding irreducible complexity, the actual situation is that the irreducible complexity of some subsystem of the organism INCLUDES the complexity of cells as well. The liver, for example, cannot be understood without understanding what happens within and between the individual liver cells.Bruce David_{November 16, 2011
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Bruce you state:
A human embryo is human, yes, but then so is the hair that my barber cuts off my head and leaves on the floor, so is the appendix that my doctor removed and disposed of, and so too is the egg BEFORE it is fertilized
Sorry, purely biologically speaking, which Dr. Egnor was, those (hair, appendix) are not 'biologically' human, but are merely part of a human. i.e. There is no debate about this. There is only one answer: Failure to answer correctly is evidence of ignorance or dishonesty.bornagain77_{November 16, 2011
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Bruce David, I don't know if you're reading too much into the title. The video was, after all, talking specifically about human life, not some other form of life. I think your point is taken, though, about being cautious to not include personal views as those of the community. Just out of curiosity, where would you view human life as beginning? Is there some other stage that is a more reasonable cutoff?
But I think that multicellular organisms are often at least as complex as the cells from which they are made, and that irreducible complexity in all likelihood applies to many of the larger structures found in them.
Absolutely agree. Each level of organization has its own irreducible complexity. The construction process itself in many cases is also an example of irreducible complexity.Eric Anderson_{November 16, 2011
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Well Tantalus, for all his certainty, is incorrect. A human embryo is human, yes, but then so is the hair that my barber cuts off my head and leaves on the floor, so is the appendix that my doctor removed and disposed of, and so too is the egg BEFORE it is fertilized. Whether the embryo is in addition a human BEING is the sum and substance of the entire abortion issue, and to say that there is no debate about this, no valid difference of opinion, is simply blindness.Bruce David_{November 16, 2011
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"But Tantalus, are you saying there are individuals who have more humanity than others?!"
Excerpt: I didn't ask a linguistic question, or a rhetorical question, or a logical question. I merely asked a biological question. If I were to show Tantalus a human embryo, and ask him "what is this", meaning in a biological taxonomy sense, the only correct answer is that it is a human being- a homo sapien. There is no debate about this. It is analogous to showing Tantalus my dog, and asking him what this is, in a biological-taxonomy sense. There is only one answer: Canis lupus familiaris. A domestic dog. That's it. It's not a cat or a tree. There's no debate. There are no opinions, only correct answers and incorrect answers. Failure to answer correctly is evidence of ignorance or dishonesty. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/01/but_tantalus_are_you_saying_th043311.html
Music:
U2 - Magnificent http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=7K6DDLNX
bornagain77_{November 16, 2011
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Comment #1: The title of the TED talk was, "From Conception to Birth", NOT "Human Life from Conception to Birth". Once again, a contributor to this site takes as established fact his or her quite arbitrary opinion that a fertilized egg is a human being. This cavalier lack of respect for the views of those of us who do not share that opinion is a source of considerable annoyance for me, and the main reason, by the way, that I do not support this site or DI monetarily. Comment #2: Michael Behe's notion of irreducible complexity is mostly discussed in the context of biological structures at the level of the cell, in part, I think, because Behe is a cell biochemist and that is the level of biology with which he works, so that is the source from which he drew his examples. But I think that multicellular organisms are often at least as complex as the cells from which they are made, and that irreducible complexity in all likelihood applies to many of the larger structures found in them. I think that in general, the notion of irreducible complexity is a reflection of the fact that as a general rule it is impossible to make any major change to a complex system one small step at a time. Impossible, that is, if one makes the requirement that each small step must result in a system that works at least as well as the previous version, which of course Darwinian evolution does. And as we all know, large multicellular organisms are the most complex systems we know of, far more complex than anything yet designed by human beings.Bruce David_{November 15, 2011
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This video is simply amazing, and is certainly a breath of fresh air from the bad design, 'junk DNA-vestigial organ' arguments constantly proffered on us by neo-Darwinists; Well contrary to how poorly Darwinists view human life:
MercyMe - Beautiful http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vh7-RSPuAA
Notes:
How many different cells are there in complex organisms? Humans have an estimated 10^14 cells, mostly positioned in precise ways and with precise organization, shape and function, in skeletal architecture, musculature and organ type, many of which (such as the nose) show inherited idiosyncrasies. Even if the actual number of cells with distinct identities is discounted by a factor of 100 (on the basis that 99% of the cells are simply clonal expansions of a particular cell type in a particular location or under particular conditions (for example, fat, muscle or immune cells)), there are still 10^12 (1 trillion) positionally different cell types. http://ai.stanford.edu/~serafim/CS374_2006/papers/Mattick_NRG2004.pdf Fearfully and Wonderfully Made – Glimpses At Human Development In The Womb – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4249713
The Human Body is simply amazing:
Human Anatomy – Impressive Transparent Visualization – Fearfully and Wonderfully Made – video http://vimeo.com/26011909 The ‘Fourth Dimension’ Of Living Systems https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1Gs_qvlM8-7bFwl9rZUB9vS6SZgLH17eOZdT4UbPoy0Y Does Quantum Biology Support A Quantum Soul? – Stuart Hameroff – video (notes in description) http://vimeo.com/29895068 Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart;,,
Music:
Chris Tomlin – The Way I Was Made http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VF5SZWox_JE
further notes:
Epistemology – Why Should The Human Mind Even Be Able To Comprehend Reality? – Stephen Meyer video – (Notes in description) http://vimeo.com/32145998 Extreme Fine Tuning of Light for Life and Scientific Discovery – video http://www.metacafe.com/w/7715887
bornagain77_{November 15, 2011
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This video is simply amazing, and is certainly a breath of fresh air from the bad design, 'junk DNA-vestigial organ' arguments constantly proffered on us by neo-Darwinists; Well contrary to how poorly Darwinists view human life:
MercyMe - Beautiful http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vh7-RSPuAA
Notes:
How many different cells are there in complex organisms? Humans have an estimated 10^14 cells, mostly positioned in precise ways and with precise organization, shape and function, in skeletal architecture, musculature and organ type, many of which (such as the nose) show inherited idiosyncrasies. Even if the actual number of cells with distinct identities is discounted by a factor of 100 (on the basis that 99% of the cells are simply clonal expansions of a particular cell type in a particular location or under particular conditions (for example, fat, muscle or immune cells)), there are still 10^12 (1 trillion) positionally different cell types. http://ai.stanford.edu/~serafim/CS374_2006/papers/Mattick_NRG2004.pdf Fearfully and Wonderfully Made – Glimpses At Human Development In The Womb – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4249713
The Human Body is simply amazing:
Human Anatomy – Impressive Transparent Visualization – Fearfully and Wonderfully Made – video http://vimeo.com/26011909 The ‘Fourth Dimension’ Of Living Systems https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1Gs_qvlM8-7bFwl9rZUB9vS6SZgLH17eOZdT4UbPoy0Y Does Quantum Biology Support A Quantum Soul? – Stuart Hameroff – video (notes in description) http://vimeo.com/29895068 Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart;,,
Music:
Chris Tomlin – The Way I Was Made http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VF5SZWox_JE
further notes:
Epistemology – Why Should The Human Mind Even Be Able To Comprehend Reality? – Stephen Meyer video – (Notes in description) http://vimeo.com/32145998 Extreme Fine Tuning of Light for Life and Scientific Discovery – video http://www.metacafe.com/w/7715887 http://vimeo.com/32145998
bornagain77_{November 15, 2011
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