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Nobel Prize winner HJ Muller, unwitting pioneer of genetic entropy theories

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hj muller

Muller received the Nobel Prize for “for the discovery that mutations can be induced by x-rays”. He studied the effects of mutation on populations, and indirectly spawned ideas which were elaborated in the book Genetic Entropy by Cornell geneticist John Sanford.

The theory of genetic entropy has the potential to overturn Darwinism on empirical grounds alone. Darwinism argues for inevitable progress, genetic entropy argues the opposite.

The thesis of genetic entropy can be explored by considering the amount of mutation in the human genome at present. Muller offers his thoughts:

it would in the end be far easier and more sensible to manufacture a complete man de novo, out of appropriately chosen raw materials, than to try to fashion into human form those pitiful relics which remained…

it is evident that the natural rate of mutation of man is so high, and his natural rate of reproduction so low, that not a great deal of margin is left for selection…

it becomes perfectly evident that the present number of children per couple cannot be great enough to allow selection to keep pace with a mutation rate of 0.1..if, to make matters worse, u should be anything like as high as 0.5…, our present reproductive practices would be utterly out of line with human requirements.

Hermann Muller quoted by John Sanford
Appendix 1, Genetic Entropy

“u” is the mutation rate. As John Sanford observes, Darwinian selection cannot keep pace with reality. Deterioration of the genome seems to be in evidence, and the efficacy of Darwinian mechanisms has been essentially falsified with respect to the human genome. Here is an excerpt of Sanford commenting on Muller’s work:

Muller calculated that the human fertility rate of that time (1950) could not deal with a mutation rate of 0.1. Since that time, we have learned that the mutation rate is a least 1,000-fold higher than he thought. Furthermore, fertility rates have declined sharply since then.

John Sanford

Walter ReMine was kind enough to point me to a more modern day version of Muller’s concerns: Why have we not died 100 times over? by Kondrashov (also from Cornell).

It is well known that when s, the selection coefficient against a deleterious mutation, is below 1/4 ~ Ne , where Ne is the effective population size, the expected frequency of this mutation is ~ 0.5, if forward and backward mutation rates are similar. Thus, if the genome size, G, in nucleotides substantially exceeds the Ne of the whole species, there is a dangerous range of selection coefficients, 1/ G less than s less than 1/4 N e . Mutations with s within this range are neutral enough to accumulate almost freely, but are still deleterious enough to make an impact at the level of the whole genome. In many vertebrates Ne ~ 10 , while G ~ 10 , so that the dangerous range includes more than four orders of magnitude. If substitutions at 10% of all nucleotide sites have selection coefficients within this range with the mean 10 , an average individual carries ~ 100 lethal equivalents. Some data suggest that a substantial fraction of nucleotides typical to a species may, indeed, be suboptimal.

Darwinian evolution doesn’t clean out all the bad in a population. Kondrashov’s observations discredit Darwin’s implicit claim of inevitable progess and the supposed survival of the fittest. The problem is that if genetic entropy is true, the ancestors are the fittest not the decendants. In that sense, the fittest don’t survive. To use Muller’s words, what remains in the end are not the fittest, but “pitiful relics”.

Kondrashov offers a supposed “fix” to the paradoxes so as to bolster Darwin’s failing theory. His fix is an appeal to “synergistic epsitasis”, but Sanford responds to this supposed “fix”:

one will encounter the term “synergistic epistasis”. When I first encountered this phrase I was very impressed. In fact, I was intimidated. It seemed to speak of a very deep understanding, a deep knowledge, which I did not possess. As I have seen it used more, and have understood these issues better, I believe I understand the term better. It is a sophisticated-sounding expression, signifying nothing. It has all the appearance of deliberate obfuscation. Literally translated, synergistic epistasis means “interactive interaction.”

Genetic Entropy by John C. Sanford is available at Amazon. I wrote a little bit about Sanford 2 years ago here: Respected Cornell geneticist rejects Darwinism.

Comments
I have a question for those who understand the hapmap project. Couldn't Sanford's ideas be evaluated by the data in this data base? If Sanford is predicting a constant deterioration of the genome by mutations, shouldn't we be able to recognize such a pattern? I realize it is a limited subset of the entire genome but every subset should show signs of genetic entropy if in fact it is operating. This data base seems to be a fascinating resource but it seems like we will need a primer on just what is in it and how it can be used or what to expect from it. I too am interested in what is known about recombination at the gamete level and whether it may be affected by epigenetic markers or other elements so the recombinations are never random. It would seem a random recombination has a potential for causing havoc in the zygote. I am certainly not knowledgeable about this so if these questions sound naive, it is due to ignorance.jerry
June 15, 2008
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Bob, Thank you again. However, just as a matter of mechanisms, it is clear human biology is able to recognize information units (like chromosomes and genes), it's a little hard to believe there aren't mechanisms that mark the beginning and end of blocks. We can't just willy-nilly slap half a linkage block into the middle of another and expect this won't result in disaster at some point....
There are genetic changes that can affect more than one gene. One such genetic chage is known as recombination, in which two chromosomes, or parts of chromosomes exchange pieces... Recombination is not a simple process. We do not yet understand how the breaking of the chromosomes and the swapping of the pieces is done as precisely as it is. We do know, though, that it is controlled by special enzymes that break the pieces, and rejoin the free ends ... not only is it under enzymatic control, it also needs certain special structures in the cell to make it work... bio physicist, Lee Spetner Not By Chance pag 39-40
We can't just willy nilly take software modules and cut them in random places and rejoin them in random places. The code blocks and rejoinings need to make sense. Thus, analogously speeaking, I have to hold out judgement that linkage blocks can just be broken apart that easily. If we don't know how chromsomal segments are identified for recombination, isn't it pre-mature to suggest that linkage blocks aren't real entitities? Especially in light of high linkage disequilibrium. In fact it appears the HapMap project is couting on the persistence of physical linkage disequilibrium. They use the word Haplotype, but is this not tied to the concept of linkage blocks? For example see : Haplotype and linkage block structure in human genome
For each highly conserved linkage block region, a phylogenetic network can be obtained, and then the phylogeny of different genes can be compared.
It would appear that at least for "highly conserved" linkage blocks, there is some hard-wiring for its identification as some sort of integrated information unit. Non-recombining linkage blocks do not appear to be purely an artifact of our imagination.scordova
June 15, 2008
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Bob, so evolution is shown not to happen for bacteria for 250 million years, yet we can infer that evolution happens for humans? Please explain your logic Bob! As well, I believe that ancient Human DNA of this nucleotide variety does not yet exist for analysis but may become available soon. So Bob When and if the ancient Human nucleotide DNA does become available, Do you care to make any predictions for what will be found?bornagain77
June 15, 2008
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But is there evidences these blocks are hardwired to be recognized as whole units in the genome?
No there isn't. They are purely a human invention - the papers Sanford refers to just observe that there are these blocks in the genome where there is very high LD, but there is no evidence that the blocks are the result of any real biological phenomena. It's just chance that means there has been little or no recombination in them.Bob O'H
June 15, 2008
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I guess it won’t surprise you to learn that I think he’s wrong. The studies he cites give evidence that there are haplotype blocks. This is not surprising - it’s the sort of thing one would expect to see with drift etc. But Sanford goes further, and assumes (with no evidence whatsoever) that these blocks are permanent. We would expect the linkage disequilibrium within these blocks to break down over time. For Sanford’s ideas to work, he would have to show that mutation accumulation would work more quickly than the decline in LD.
Much appreciated Bob for your thoughts. I put the question out because I had reservations about this portion of Sandford's thesis.... Once upon a time, I mistakenly presumed that individual nucleotides from paired chormosomes (from mom and dad) re-combined by something approximating the concept of two long rows of nucleotides (one row for one chromosome, one from the other chromosome), and one-by-one a nucleotide was crossed-over from one row to the other. But I was mistaken.... Then I began to think, we get some genes from one chromosome and then some genes from the other chromosome, where the recombination is more at the gene level than individual nucleotides... Now it seems it may be the case that not only are whole genes recombined but sets of genes and regulatory elements in the form of linkage blocks. I kept seeing the term "Linkage Disequilibrium" in Kimura's writings and it's only in the course of our discussion I'm appreciating what it represented. I generally skipped reading Kimura's papers on the topic...
Bob wrote: We would expect the linkage disequilibrium within these blocks to break down over time.
I get the impression from a mechanistic standpoint, we are still learning about linkage blocks. But is there evidences these blocks are hardwired to be recognized as whole units in the genome? For example, we view a chromosome as a whole unit, but its individual parts can re-combine. No question there. However, are linkage blocks whole units which tend to resist re-combination of it's parts? Also, are Haplotypes and Haplogroups strongly related to the concept of linkage blocks? The term haplotype is a contraction of the term "haploid genotype." In genetics, a haplotype (Greek haploos = single) is a combination of alleles at multiple loci that are transmitted together on the same chromosome. Haplotype may refer to as few as two loci or to an entire chromosome depending on the number of recombination events that have occurred between a given set of loci. In a second meaning, haplotype is a set of single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) on a single chromatid that are statistically associated. It is thought that these associations, and the identification of a few alleles of a haplotype block, can unambiguously identify all other polymorphic sites in its region. Such information is very valuable for investigating the genetics behind common diseases, and is collected by the International HapMap Project.[1][2] Many genetic testing companies use the term "haplotype" to refer to an individual collection of STR allele mutations within a genetic segment, while using the term "haplogroup" to refer to the SNP/UEP mutations which represents the clade to which a collection of potential haplotypes belong.[3] scordova
June 15, 2008
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Mitochondrial DNA doesn't have recombination every generation either.Bob O'H
June 15, 2008
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Sorry, BA, but how can stability in bacteria be relevant to the extent of linkage disequilibrium (LD) in humans? Their population sizes are much larger (which means LD is slower to build up), and they have little to none recombination (which is one thing that reduces LD).Bob O'H
June 15, 2008
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How about this study Bob: Ancient DNA and the origin of modern humans http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=33358 Of special note: Adcock et al. (7) clearly demonstrate the actual extinction of an ancient mtDNA lineage belonging to an anatomically modern human, because this lineage is not found in living Australians. Although the fossil evidence provides evidence of the continuity of modern humans over the past 60,000 years, the ancient mtDNA clearly does not, providing an excellent example of why the history of any particular locus or DNA sequence does not necessarily represent the history of a population. Adcock et al.’s (7 HMM Bob, stable record for humans presence and the only thing of note to report in changes to the genome is a loss of a mtDNA sequence. (Suggest Genetic Entropy and overall Stability to me) And in this analysis of the preceding study http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/multiregional.html excerpt: Overall, the lack of "evolution" for humans over the last 40,000 years stands in sharp contrast to the large differences seen between modern humans and Neanderthals over the same period of time.bornagain77
June 15, 2008
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Bob I think you know I don't have to point this out, If the genome of bacteria, (which we supposedly came from) is overwhelmingly stable, and even deteriorates, over millions of years, it is indeed revelent and of interest to establishing whether human genomes may also have this type of flexibility required by darwinian conjectures. Variability is a primary foundation of evolution is it not? It appears to me that you are just ignoring the foundational evidence I presented since it is inconvenient for you in this matter. But if you want, we can always go into genetic disorder studies of humans and see if you got any hope there for the "beneficial" flexibility of the human genome that you are required to demonstrate to be considered plausible. -- "Professional evolutionary biologists are hard-pressed to cite even one clear-cut example of evolution through a beneficial mutation to DNA that would violate the principle of genetic entropy. Although evolutionists try to claim the lactase persistence mutation as a lonely example of a beneficial mutation in humans, lactase persistence is actually a loss of a instruction in the genome to turn the lactase enzyme off, so the mutation clearly does not violate genetic entropy. Yet at the same time, the evidence for the detrimental nature of mutations in humans is clearly overwhelming, for doctors have already cited over 3500 mutational genetic disorders (Dr. Gary Parker). "Mutations" by Dr. Gary Parker http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/cfol/ch2-mutations.aspbornagain77
June 15, 2008
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I was replying to Sal's question about Sanford's statements about haplotype blocks. Sanford only discusses this in humans. So evidence from bacilli hardly seems relevant.Bob O'H
June 15, 2008
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The subject IS stability of the genome! If I seem scornful to you so be it, Yet I assure it is actually "non-personal" contempt for your poverty of actual evidence that can withstand scrutiny and thus the lack of reasoned judgment for the matter at hand.bornagain77
June 15, 2008
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BA77 - I see you went for scorn, and then changed the subject. Does that mean you have no better reply to what I wrote?Bob O'H
June 15, 2008
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Bob you stated: But Sanford goes further, and assumes (with no evidence whatsoever) that these blocks are permanent. LOL, A Darwinists saying "with no evidence whatsoever" LOL. Bob it is too early in the morning to make me laugh so hard. Well Bob what evidence do we have that the genome is inherently stable and resistant to change: Though it is impossible to reconstruct the DNA of the earliest bacteria fossils, that scientists find in the fossil record, and compare them to their descendants of today, there are many ancient bacterium fossils recovered from salt crystals and amber crystals that have been compared to their living descendants of today. Some bacterium fossils, in salt crystals, dating back as far as 250 million years have had their DNA recovered, sequenced and compared to their offspring of today (Vreeland RH, 2000 Nature). To the disbelieving shock of many scientists, both ancient and modern bacteria were found to have the almost exact DNA sequence. “Almost without exception, bacteria isolated from ancient material have proven to closely resemble modern bacteria at both morphological and molecular levels.” Heather Maughan*, C. William Birky Jr., Wayne L. Nicholson, William D. Rosenzweig§ and Russell H. Vreeland ; (The Paradox of the "Ancient" Bacterium Which Contains "Modern" Protein-Coding Genes) http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/19/9/1637 Revival and identification of bacterial spores in 25- to 40-million-year-old Dominican amber; (R. Cano) Dr. Cano and his former graduate student Dr. Monica K. Borucki found slight but significant differences between the DNA of the ancient 25-40 million year old amber-sealed Bacillus sphaericus, and that of its modern counterpart (sub-species), thus ruling out that it is a modern "contaminant", yet, at the same time, severely confounding Darwinists since the change is not nearly as great as the Darwinists "genetic drift" (Junk DNA) theory would require on paper. But can the slight difference that is found in the ancient amber sealed bacteria to the modern bacteria at least prove that some complexity has been gained by Darwinian Processes in those millions of years? Commenting on my inquiry for such a "fitness" test Dr. Cano stated: "We performed such a test, a long time ago, using a panel of substrates (the old gram positive biolog panel) on B. sphaericus. From the results we surmised that the putative "ancient" B. sphaericus isolate was capable of utilizing a broader scope of substrates. Additionally, we looked at the fatty acid profile and here, again, the profiles were similar but more diverse in the amber isolate." RJ Cano and MK Borucki Thus the ancient parent species of bacteria apparently had a greater level of complexity since it had more of a ability to utilize substrates, though, I must add that Dr. Cano said he is "undecided" as to whether it is definite proof for loss of complexity. That seems like pretty solid evidence to me Bob. What does evolution have Bob"? Suggestive similarities of sequences and obfuscating "just so" stories of how hypothetical beneficial mutations produces these changes? Admit it Bob evolutionists have no evidence whatsoever for there fanciful conjectures!bornagain77
June 15, 2008
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Does anyone have anything information on whether Sanford’s characterization of inherited linkage blocks is correct? If so this would be yet another torpedo into Darwin’s sinking ship….
I guess it won't surprise you to learn that I think he's wrong. The studies he cites give evidence that there are haplotype blocks. This is not surprising - it's the sort of thing one would expect to see with drift etc. But Sanford goes further, and assumes (with no evidence whatsoever) that these blocks are permanent. We would expect the linkage disequilibrium within these blocks to break down over time. For Sanford's ideas to work, he would have to show that mutation accumulation would work more quickly than the decline in LD.Bob O'H
June 15, 2008
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Well Junkyard don't read it if you read it before DUH, Since the authors are evolutionists in the first place and evolution can't possibly be false in their eyes,(All Hail, to king Darwin) I think their interpretation may be a little skewed and that they will try to find any way possible to say that their nak^ed emperor has clothes on. But hey let's look at the evidence as it really is: na^ked. Darwinism would have died a very natural death at the hands of Mendelian genetics, when the whole organism was taken away from Darwinists for selection purposes, if it had not been for the work of Haldane, Fisher and Wright who formulated the modern neo-Darwinian synthesis. Through obscure mathematics, that most no one really understood, they were able to meld Mendelian genetics with Darwinism. Mendelian genetics had established that specific traits in organisms are passed down through discrete elements of each parent called genes (This fact took away the element of variability that Darwinism needed to be viable as a theory) Yet by "mathematically" showing that individual genes could possibly vary and be selected for or against, they thus saved Darwinism from death. Yet now with ENCODE, Darwinism has to deal with a couple of brand new and bigger problems. One fact is that the Genes are now proved not to be such individual elements which may selected or discarded as NS sees fit, but that they are in fact interconnected in vastly complex interlocking ways with other genes and elements that make them severely poly-constrained to any random mutations (Sanford: Genetic Entropy). Thus, discrete individual genes are taken away from Darwinists as a element for selection, yet Mendelian Genetics still holds solidly in its explanatory power for science. The second thing that is crushing to Darwinists from ENCODE, is that Darwinists required huge sections of the Genome to be considered "Junk DNA" so as to have room do their magical math in and make Darwinism work on paper. But alas for the faithful of the church of Darwin, the large sections of "Junk DNA" that they magically made appear on paper has now disappeared in the empirical evidence of ENCODE. If you would rather not believe this simple truth I've illustrated I'm sure you can find someone over at PT to obfuscate the crap out of you and make this simple fact disappear and make you believe everything is fine in Darwinland so you can sleep well at night. But as for me, I will tell you the truth, the emperor is as na^ked as a jay-bird and has been ever since he has slipped out of Darwin's crafty mind..bornagain77
June 14, 2008
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ba77: "In June 2007, a international team of scientists, named ENCODE, published a study that indicates the genome contains very little unused sequences and, in fact, is a complex, interwoven network. This “complex interwoven network” throughout the entire DNA code makes the human genome severely poly-constrained to random mutations (Sanford; Genetic Entropy, 2005; page 141). This means the DNA code is now much more severely limited in its chance of ever having a hypothetical beneficial mutation since almost the entire DNA code is now proven to be intimately connected to many other parts of the DNA code. . . . http://www.genome.gov/25521554" It seems a casual reader of the above might assume that the ENCODE project had concluded that the genome is polyconstrained to beneficial mutations and also that they concluded something about Genetic Entropy. But the article which I think you've posted maybe a hundred times does not mention the words "mutation" "mutate" or "genetic entropy". Maybe the ENCODE project had something more specific to say elsewhere about the possibility of beneficial mutations, but not in the article you repeatedly post. In fact, it has the following to say, which I have pointed out before:
According to ENCODE researchers, this lack of evolutionary constraint may indicate that many species' genomes contain a pool of functional elements, including RNA transcripts, that provide no specific benefits in terms of survival or reproduction. As this pool turns over during evolutionary time, researchers speculate it may serve as a "warehouse for natural selection" by acting as a source of functional elements unique to each species and of elements that perform the similar functions among species despite having sequences that appear dissimilar
JunkyardTornado
June 14, 2008
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Scordova, Sorry buddy, I not quite sure exactly what Sanford is talking about there, but as far as dealing a crushing blow to Darwinism, that was done when ENCODE found preliminary evidence for a 100% severely poly-functional code, thus eliminating the "junk DNA" required for Darwinism to work on paper. i.e. The human genome, according to Bill Gates the founder of Microsoft, far, far surpasses in complexity any computer program ever written by man. The data compression (multiple meanings) of some stretches of human DNA is estimated to be up to 12 codes thick (Trifonov, 1989)! No line of computer code ever written by man approaches that level of data compression (poly-functional complexity). Further evidence for the inherent complexity of the DNA is found in a another study. In June 2007, a international team of scientists, named ENCODE, published a study that indicates the genome contains very little unused sequences and, in fact, is a complex, interwoven network. This “complex interwoven network” throughout the entire DNA code makes the human genome severely poly-constrained to random mutations (Sanford; Genetic Entropy, 2005; page 141). This means the DNA code is now much more severely limited in its chance of ever having a hypothetical beneficial mutation since almost the entire DNA code is now proven to be intimately connected to many other parts of the DNA code. Thus even though a random mutation to DNA may be able to change one part of an organism for the better, it is now proven much more likely to harm many other parts of the organism that depend on that one particular part being as it originally was. Since evolution was forced, by the established proof of Mendelian genetics, to no longer view the whole organism as to what natural selection works upon, but to view the whole organism as a multiple independent collection of genes that can be selected or discarded as natural selection sees fit, this “complex interwoven network” finding is absolutely crushing, for the population genetics scenario of evolution (modern neo-Darwinian synthesis) developed by Haldane, Fisher and Wright (page 52 and 53: Genetic Entropy: Sanford 2005)! http://www.genome.gov/25521554 BETHESDA, Md., Wed., June 13, 2007 -" An international research consortium today published a set of papers that promise to reshape our understanding of how the human genome functions. The findings challenge the traditional view of our genetic blueprint as a tidy collection of independent genes, pointing instead to a complex network in which genes, along with regulatory elements and other types of DNA sequences that do not code for proteins, interact in overlapping ways not yet fully understood." http://www.boston.com/news/globe/health_science/articles/2007/09/24/dna_unraveled/?page=1 "The science of life is undergoing changes so jolting that even its top researchers are feeling something akin to shell-shock. Just four years after scientists finished mapping the human genome - the full sequence of 3 billion DNA "letters" folded within every cell - they find themselves confronted by a biological jungle deeper, denser, and more difficult to penetrate than anyone imagined."bornagain77
June 14, 2008
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Does anyone have anything information on whether Sanford's characterization of inherited linkage blocks is correct? If so this would be yet another torpedo into Darwin's sinking ship.... Seriously, guys, Darwin relied on the ability of the good traits and bad traits to be decoupled, but inheritance of linkage blocks would annihilate his theory. Please refer to my comment here for background. The question is simple, are linkage blocks inherited like genes? If so, this is really bad for Darwinism..... I'd appreciate any input on this topic. Many thanks!scordova
June 14, 2008
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Jerry, Your treatment of the "basic mo^del" and the lack of respect you have to the depth to which it ties into the other first principles of science, lacks something to be desired, to put it very mildly. Entropy as a principle in thermodynamics, not only reflects present "deterioration from optimal" but if fact suggested an original optimal state long before the "Big Bang" was discovered. In fact the most stunning number to come out of the anthropic principle was deduced by Penrose , when he found, what could be termed to be, the initial entropy of the universe to be Ordered to 10^10^123. No Indeed jerry, Genetic Entropy fits the bill very well for the principle that empirical science is alluding to. As for any more disagreements with you, I respectfully agree to disagree with you and debate this matter with you no more. further.bornagain77
June 14, 2008
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bornagain77, Rather than comment on each item in your basic model, I will give you off the top of my head some reactions. The term "entropy" is one that describes chaos or orderliness. I am not sure it fits your scenario. While mutations are happening and affecting organisms what you are portraying is a very orderly process even if some of the paths are leading to dead ends. This is a very different concept from what Sanford describes which is an inexorable decline to dysfunction. So I would use another term to describe your model. The hypothesis that there were two parents in the deep past with all the genomic information is a form of front loading. However, there are some contradictions in such an approach which is why I was never enamored with a front loading approach. Despite what the Darwinists proclaim there is long twisted path that evolution has followed that leads from simple creatures to more complexity as the eons roll on. James Valentine, the dean of paleontologists, talks about the cell types that were present at the Cambrian Explosion and estimates there were about 40 types and that today most mammals have more than 200 cell types. And along with these cell types there is greater complexity in the organisms especially in the nervous systems and mental capabilities. So all this complexity must have been hidden in the original two parents or else it was created along the way. This is why I have a lot of problems with front loading. Why all this hidden capability not subject to selection but being preserved for the right ecological event and then all of a sudden it is gone. To me the only two alternatives that make sense are a naturalistic process that builds the complexity over time and intervention by some intelligence. I would accept the first if I thought there was any evidence for it. A naturalistic process does not some how disappear but like the rest of the laws of nature continues to lurk at every moment. But no such process is visible even with today's advances in science to find such a process. And all the forensic evidence points against it. So I am left with the improbable explanation that there has been multiple intelligent interventions into our world. Such a process is ridiculed and mocked by anti ID people as the "poof" theory or "fairy tale" theory. It is also criticized as bad theology as it hypothesizes a lesser God than the omnipotent creator of Judeo Christian theology. ID proposes the God who can't shoot straight as opposed to One who has planned it out from the very beginning and then let it all unfold, Your model is an unfolding model but it has its problems for me like the other front loaded models. Joseph, who comments here every so often, used the term "designed to evolve" and I like that but how many times was there a design event is the real question.jerry
June 14, 2008
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Jerry; micro-evolution, as you seem to be using it, will fall somewhat as a mechanism within the overall principle of Genetic Entropy. Let me try to be clear of how I am using the term Genetic Entropy since it is broader than how Sanford uses it; I am arguing for the Theistic ID(CSI)/GE mo^del which will hold that a single male and female parent species (kind) is created by God, for animals, with all inbuilt ability for variation of kind built in and that once God has created the species (kind) He does not “tinker” with it anymore after He created it. Thus, letting nature take its course with Genetic Entropy, so to say. So we have a overall scientific mo^del to make predictions and check results with (not a mechanism but a mind you). What predictions can we make with this mo^del? Well we can infer quite a lot actually. We can infer that the original genome of the parent species is optimal. We can infer adaptations of sub-species will all come at a cost of the original (CSI) information in the genome of the parent species i.e. we can infer loss of meaningful Genetic Diversity with sub-speciation events. We can predict that sub-species will have less of a ability to sub-speciate (to radiate) than the original parent species did. We can predict that any naturally occurring mutations to the parent species genome will be detrimental to the overall complexity of the genome even though the “loss of information” may be beneficial for adaptations. We can predict that the longer God does not touch His creation, and the longer “nature” permanently alters the genome, the more likely it is the species will lose morphological variability and adaptive flexibility, followed by the more likely it is the species (kind) will go extinct. I probably left a few very important predictions out but this should be basic outline of the Theistic ID/GE mo^del. So this is the basic that I start out with, then I look in detail to different studies such as the trilobite study and I find a consistent, tree like, pattern of radiation away from parent species (kind). I look to present day cichlid studies and again I find that the "ancient lineages" have a greater propensity to radiate, plus I find greater meaningful genetic and morphological diversity (photo-receptors in particular) for the "ancient lineages" of cichlids. As well I look at the oldest mtDNA evidence for humans (40 to 50k ya) and I find loss of genetic information. Present day study on humans produce same loss patterns. Dogs same, Sheep same, Pigs same etc. etc. I look to the overall fossil record and find a burst of radiation from distinct parent (kinds) species with gradual decline in diversity and variability over long periods of time. For me this consistent pattern establishes the mo^del as solid and testable. and as I told patrick: As with the 1st and 2nd law (Conservation of Energy and Entropy) flowing hand in hand to establish thermodynamics, I firmly believe that Conservation of Information and Genetic Entropy will flow hand in hand as primary principles guiding biological research. Though, anomalies may come up with Genetic Entropy, as they have come up with Entropy itself, that have to be dealt with, Genetic Entropy as a primary principle for biology will indeed hold as an overriding principle, guide and structure by which to make biological predictions with. As a sidelight, I’ve been mulling over the principle of Conservation of Information, in looking at Zeilinger’s work with quantum teleportation. And somewhat apart from the CSI developed by Dr. Dembski, I find this principle of Conservation of Information to run much, much deeper. Indeed it runs into the fabric of reality itself. Dr. Zeilinger’s work with quantum teleportation actually establishes that “information” is do^min^ate of energy/matter! Yet this is very, very peculiar thing, for as James Joule, the father of the first Law of thermodynamics, wrote: “It is manifestly absurd to suppose that the powers with which God has endowed matter can be destroyed any more than they can be created by man’s agency.” i.e. Energy can be neither create nor destroyed. And if energy can not be created nor destroyed by man’s agency, who are we to think that “information”,which has the power to tell energy what to do, should be any “less than” than energy in this attribute. Thus is it perfectly reasonable to think that “information”, which is in fact do^min^ate of energy, can neither be created nor destroyed also i.e. It is not reasonable to presume that "information" does not exist since it is primary over energy which can not be destroyed. IMO this peculiarity found in quantum teleportation necessitates, warrants, the inference to the “infinite mind of God” to stay consistent with logic and the first law, indeed to stay consistent with what we know for reality as a whole.bornagain77
June 13, 2008
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Kinda cool off topic video: Another very good argument against evolution http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=817b7893bcdeed13799bbornagain77
June 13, 2008
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bornagain77, I do not believe that micro evolution has ever added much functional information to the genome. I never said it did. It can refine a genome and lead to a more efficient variant for a new environment based on what is already in the gene pool. It also explains the varying sizes of genomes but this is probably not related to functionality. I happen to believe there is some junk DNA, just how much is debatable, but it is the most obvious answer for the varying sizes of genomes. Occasionally micro evolution can add some small things such as a new variant of an allele. I believe there is evidence for a few small changes of trivial consequence but which could affect survival such as color and length of fur or skin color or maybe the processing of some substance through an enzyme change or the anti freeze example of the antarctic fish. I am open to other examples but the Darwinists provide precious few. And I believe micro evolution best explains all your examples. It too leads to extinction for most species but for very different reasons. And if the environment does not change much such as for sea creatures there is no reason to expect much extinction as long as the gene pool is big enough. There is no naturalistic explanation that makes sense for the appearance of diverse new classes and orders in the world. But after the gene pool is available, micro evolution can explain the families, genera and species just fine.jerry
June 13, 2008
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That is to save for re-mutations back to original states of CSI.bornagain77
June 13, 2008
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Jerry , Do you believe micro-evolutionary events above the level of virus ever add information (CSI)? If you do, we disagree, if you don't, then we agree.bornagain77
June 13, 2008
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bornagain77, you said "This is what I addressed in post 54 And exactly How did I misunderstand this?" I think you should read some of the comments you made about what I said. My position at all times has been that micro evolution explains all your examples. Micro evolutionary processes make a great design mechanism to handle a world of varying environments and contingencies. It is fitting of a truly great designer. To me, Sanford's ideas will lead to nothing but chaos and since we do not see chaos, but a fairly well ordered distribution of life, one has to look elsewhere for the explanation. I can see no way that genetic entropy leads to the magnificent variety of life we see on this planet. It predicts a continual down hill struggle where selection can never get purchase. To me it is not fitting of a great designer. Micro evolution can explain most of the life we see but not all and I see no role yet for genetic entropy that makes sense. This is not to say mutations do not happen or that many are not deleterious but the complete collapse Sanford is predicting seems like looney tunes. As genomes are investigated the proof will be in the pudding. Either the genome is largely preserved or it is a rusted out car as Sanford says. It cannot be both. And please do not distort what I say. Micro evolution is not macro evolution. ID disputes macro evolution not micro evolution. So the micro evolution part of the Darwinian paradigm is accepted by most of those who support ID. You are welcome to think genetic entropy will lead to what has happened on the planet in terms of life's transitions and extinctions but I do not see it. So I will argue against it till I see better information.jerry
June 13, 2008
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Correction" And if energy can not be created nor destroyed by man’s agency, who are we to think that “information” should be any “less than” than energy in this attribute. Thus is it not reasonable to think that “information”, which is do^min^ate of energy, can NOT be created or destroyed also. IMO this peculiarity found in quantum teleportation necessitates the inference to the “infinite mind of God” to stay consistent with logic and the first law.bornagain77
June 13, 2008
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Patrick you said; "But I’m of the same opinion as you, that further evidence and not just estimates needs to be gathered before genetic entropy can be accepted." As with the 1st and 2nd law (Conservation of Energy and Entropy) flowing hand in hand to establish thermodynamics, I firmly believe that Conservation of Information and Genetic Entropy will flow hand in hand as primary principles guiding biological research. Though, anomalies may come up with Genetic Entropy, as they have come up with Entropy itself, that have to be dealt with, Genetic Entropy as a primary principle for biology will indeed hold as an overriding guide and structure by which to make biological predictions with. As a sidelight, I've been mulling over the principle of Conservation of Information, in looking at Zeilinger's work with quantum teleportation. And somewhat apart from the CSI developed by Dr. Dembski, I find this principle of Conservation of Information to run much, much deeper. Indeed it runs into the fabric of reality itself. Dr. Zeilinger's work with quantum teleportation actually establishes that "information" is do^min^ate of energy/matter! Yet this is very, very peculiar thing, for as James Joule, the father of the first Law of thermodynamics, wrote: "It is manifestly absurd to suppose that the powers with which God has endowed matter can be destroyed any more than they can be created by man's agency." i.e. Energy can be neither create nor destroyed. Yet information is shown to actually "tell energy what to do" by Zeilinger! Thus it is strongly suggested, by the empirics, to actually be primary and preceding to energy. And if energy can be created nor destroyed by man's agency who are we to think that "information" should be "less than" energy in this attribute. Thus is it not reasonable to think that "information", which is do^min^ate of energy, can be created or destroyed also. IMO this peculiarity found in quantum teleportation necessitates the inference to the "infinite mind of God" to stay consistent with logic and the first law.bornagain77
June 13, 2008
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Sal, Personally I believe that further designed mechanisms would be required to maintain data integrity over geological time periods. Of course, one could argue that sexual recombination IS that designed mechanism. But I'm of the same opinion as you, that further evidence beyond current estimates need to be gathered before genetic entropy can be accepted.Patrick
June 13, 2008
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Jerry, As for mistaking you for an evolutionists I am sorry. As you can see, I have a hard time maintaining respect for them. Yet, as in the above passage, when I see you defend a evolutionary position that needs no defending, especially when it falls within the primary principle of Genetic Entropy, If it catches my attention, I will point it out to you.bornagain77
June 13, 2008
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