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Nobel Prize winner HJ Muller, unwitting pioneer of genetic entropy theories

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hj muller

Muller received the Nobel Prize for “for the discovery that mutations can be induced by x-rays”. He studied the effects of mutation on populations, and indirectly spawned ideas which were elaborated in the book Genetic Entropy by Cornell geneticist John Sanford.

The theory of genetic entropy has the potential to overturn Darwinism on empirical grounds alone. Darwinism argues for inevitable progress, genetic entropy argues the opposite.

The thesis of genetic entropy can be explored by considering the amount of mutation in the human genome at present. Muller offers his thoughts:

it would in the end be far easier and more sensible to manufacture a complete man de novo, out of appropriately chosen raw materials, than to try to fashion into human form those pitiful relics which remained…

it is evident that the natural rate of mutation of man is so high, and his natural rate of reproduction so low, that not a great deal of margin is left for selection…

it becomes perfectly evident that the present number of children per couple cannot be great enough to allow selection to keep pace with a mutation rate of 0.1..if, to make matters worse, u should be anything like as high as 0.5…, our present reproductive practices would be utterly out of line with human requirements.

Hermann Muller quoted by John Sanford
Appendix 1, Genetic Entropy

“u” is the mutation rate. As John Sanford observes, Darwinian selection cannot keep pace with reality. Deterioration of the genome seems to be in evidence, and the efficacy of Darwinian mechanisms has been essentially falsified with respect to the human genome. Here is an excerpt of Sanford commenting on Muller’s work:

Muller calculated that the human fertility rate of that time (1950) could not deal with a mutation rate of 0.1. Since that time, we have learned that the mutation rate is a least 1,000-fold higher than he thought. Furthermore, fertility rates have declined sharply since then.

John Sanford

Walter ReMine was kind enough to point me to a more modern day version of Muller’s concerns: Why have we not died 100 times over? by Kondrashov (also from Cornell).

It is well known that when s, the selection coefficient against a deleterious mutation, is below 1/4 ~ Ne , where Ne is the effective population size, the expected frequency of this mutation is ~ 0.5, if forward and backward mutation rates are similar. Thus, if the genome size, G, in nucleotides substantially exceeds the Ne of the whole species, there is a dangerous range of selection coefficients, 1/ G less than s less than 1/4 N e . Mutations with s within this range are neutral enough to accumulate almost freely, but are still deleterious enough to make an impact at the level of the whole genome. In many vertebrates Ne ~ 10 , while G ~ 10 , so that the dangerous range includes more than four orders of magnitude. If substitutions at 10% of all nucleotide sites have selection coefficients within this range with the mean 10 , an average individual carries ~ 100 lethal equivalents. Some data suggest that a substantial fraction of nucleotides typical to a species may, indeed, be suboptimal.

Darwinian evolution doesn’t clean out all the bad in a population. Kondrashov’s observations discredit Darwin’s implicit claim of inevitable progess and the supposed survival of the fittest. The problem is that if genetic entropy is true, the ancestors are the fittest not the decendants. In that sense, the fittest don’t survive. To use Muller’s words, what remains in the end are not the fittest, but “pitiful relics”.

Kondrashov offers a supposed “fix” to the paradoxes so as to bolster Darwin’s failing theory. His fix is an appeal to “synergistic epsitasis”, but Sanford responds to this supposed “fix”:

one will encounter the term “synergistic epistasis”. When I first encountered this phrase I was very impressed. In fact, I was intimidated. It seemed to speak of a very deep understanding, a deep knowledge, which I did not possess. As I have seen it used more, and have understood these issues better, I believe I understand the term better. It is a sophisticated-sounding expression, signifying nothing. It has all the appearance of deliberate obfuscation. Literally translated, synergistic epistasis means “interactive interaction.”

Genetic Entropy by John C. Sanford is available at Amazon. I wrote a little bit about Sanford 2 years ago here: Respected Cornell geneticist rejects Darwinism.

Comments
Jerry stated: "You don’t seem to understand how micro evolution works and what are the basic tenets of it and where are the weak points of the Darwinian paradigm in total. It is not on the genetic side which is where your examples are from. Genetics predicts all the things you are bringing up. The weakness of the Darwinian paradigm has always been on the creation of new meaningful variation which is why the trilobites gene pool became narrower and narrower. That is what the Edge of Evolution is all about." --- This is what I addressed in post 54 And exactly How did I misunderstand this?bornagain77
June 13, 2008
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It would appear that mitochondiral DNA and Y-chromosomes in humans would be subject to Muller’s ratchet. In that sense, Muller’s ratchet can be applied to sexually reproducing species. Is that a reasonable statement?
For small parts of the genome, yes probably. I don't want to say definitely, because I haven't followed the mitochondrial evolution literature, so there may be evidence for recombination.
Of course, this should raise questions about why the other chromosomes haven’t degraded.
Agreed. I maintain the possibilty that a recent creation of certain life forms is the reason. It is possible the universe is old, but certain life-forms (in their current state) are recent.
But then what about the Y chromosome? Was that created before the rest of man? I've got this image of God putting it aside in his workshop for later, and when He gets round to using it, it's all manky, but He decides to stuff it in anyway.Bob O'H
June 12, 2008
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bornagain77, You have a difficult time with reading comprehension. You are making up things that I have never said. I suggest you read what I say carefully before making disparaging and sarcastic remarks and creating things in your mind which I did not say and do not hold. There is no one here who defends the ID position more than I do so you have to control your imagination and read carefully. Maybe you will learn something.jerry
June 12, 2008
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Jerry I reiterate this for you: I go to genetics and find that a loss of gentic diversity occurs with sub-speciation events (I was actually pleasantly surprised to find this out) Yet, You claim I am somehow cheating with the evidence to say that sub-species have less genetic diversity than a parent species, and to claim this as an overall proof that stays within the primary principle of Genetic Entropy, Why do you say this? Is not evolution making the grand claim that random mutations are generating genetic diversity and variability to account for the vast profusion of life we see around us? are not new mutations suppose to be the primary driving force for what is in fact driving speciation events? Should not I naturally expect to see more genetic Diversity for sub-speciation events, at least sometimes if not all the time, if Darwinism is actually true? Does or Does not Evolution actually have the grand power of creating new species of life with new, more diverse, genetic information that you and other evolutionists claim it does? Why must all sub-speciation events that I can find evidence for be accompanied by a loss of genetic diversity if evolution is so obviously true? For you to hold that evolution can create life and then in the next breath say that evolution says all sub-speciation events, that we can currently measure with science, are predicted to come at a loss of Genetic diversity is in fact two diametrically different claims for evolution. You can’t have it both ways, as with bacteria, you must present complexity that is above the level of the parent species to prove evolution true, this has never been done for any speciation event I can find? You tell me that I don't understand these things, yet if your level of understanding blinds you to these clear and obvious facts , I don't want to know any of your knowledge for it has blinded you to the truth.bornagain77
June 12, 2008
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Rates of mutation are crudely esitmated right now, partly because of the extreme expense of gene sequencing... The first cut at sequencing the human genome cost $3,000,000,000 Solexa technology hopes to allow complete sequencing of an individual at the cost of $3,000 For humans, estimates for baseline mutation rates involve assuming that humans and chimps diverged x number of million years ago, and the number of nucleotide differences gives an approximation of mutation rates for humans. Bryan Sykes refers to it in his book, Seven Daughters of Eve.... Sykes placed mito-chondrial Eve at 140,000 years ago. See this review at Salon:Seven Daughters of Eve. But Sykes mutation rates assume the Darwinain story for Human evolution. It is not unreasonable, imho, but it still is not the most accurate measurement, in principle. This form of "measuring" mutation rates is critically dependent on evolutionary assumptions (and honesty and accuracy by Darwinian paleontologists). A more direct method would involve taking the DNA of large numbers of parents and their children or grand children. A professor at LomaLinda Medical school, Dr. Sean Pitman, MD and colleague of our very own Dr. Paul Giem, MD cited a study HERE where this method [comparing parents and children] was applied. The mutation rates returned were higher than the ones Sykes used by a factor of 20. This was done on mitochondiral-DNA, not nuclear DNA, and thus it was cheaper and feasible. However with Solexa technology we might be able to do this with nuclear DNA. A fair statement at this time would be, "let's make more measurements." In any case, the study Pitman cited appeared in the prestigious scientific journal Nature.
"The rate and pattern of sequence substitutions in the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) control region (CR) is of central importance to studies of human evolution and to forensic identity testing. Here, we report a direct measurement of the intergenerational substitution rate in the human CR. We compared DNA sequences of two CR hypervariable segments from close maternal relatives, from 134 independent mtDNA lineages spanning 327 generational events. Ten subsitutions were observed, resulting in an empirical rate of 1/33 generations, or 2.5/site/Myr. This is roughly twenty-fold higher than estimates derived from phylogenetic analyses. This disparity cannot be accounted for simply by substitutions at mutational hot spots, suggesting additional factors that produce the discrepancy between very near-term and long-term apparent rates of sequence divergence. The data also indicate that extremely rapid segregation of CR sequence variants between generations is common in humans, with a very small mtDNA bottleneck. These results have implications for forensic applications and studies of human evolution. The observed substitution rate reported here is very high compared to rates inferred from evolutionary studies. A wide range of CR substitution rates have been derived from phylogenetic studies, spanning roughly 0.025-0.26/site/Myr, including confidence intervals. A study yielding one of the faster estimates gave the substitution rate of the CR hypervariable regions as 0.118 +- 0.031/site/Myr. Assuming a generation time of 20 years, this corresponds to ~1/600 generations and an age for the mtDNA MRCA of 133,000 y.a. Thus, our observation of the substitution rate, 2.5/site/Myr, is roughly 20-fold higher than would be predicted from phylogenetic analyses. Using our empirical rate to calibrate the mtDNA molecular clock would result in an age of the mtDNA MRCA of only ~6,500 y.a., clearly incompatible with the known age of modern humans. Even acknowledging that the MRCA of mtDNA may be younger than the MRCA of modern humans, it remains implausible to explain the known geographic distribution of mtDNA sequence variation by human migration that occurred only in the last ~6,500 years. Thomas Parsons, A high observed substitution rate in the human mitochondrial DNA control region, Nature Genetics vol. 15, April 1997, pp. 363-367
The Distinguished professor Michael Lynch in Nature 2004
Alternative approaches in mammals, relying on phylogenetic comparisons of pseudogene loci and fourfold degenerate codon positions, suffer from uncertainties in the actual number of generations separating the compared species and the inability to exclude biases associated with natural selection. Here we provide a direct and unbiased estimate of the nuclear mutation rate and its molecular spectrum with a set of C. elegans mutation-accumulation lines that reveal a mutation rate about tenfold higher than previous indirect estimates and an excess of insertions over deletions.
Direct measurements appear not to be exactly in line with molecular clocks, but that's ok, since we know molecular clocks are busted. I see that lab measured rates are 10 to 20 faster than what the paleontologists are speculating from various sources. Anyone with data, feel free to weigh in. I think Solexa technology will settle the issue. We'll just have to wait and see in the mean time...scordova
June 12, 2008
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BA77 I have Spetner's "Not By Chance" too. Didn't care for it near as much as Genetic Entropy. Sanford's book and hypothesis is very important IMO. You can plug any baseline mutation rate into it instead of accepting the one Sanford worked with. Using the commonly given 1 copy error per 10^9 base pairs for eukaryotes catastrophic genetic entropy happens at about the rate it's seen to happen in the fossil record. The $64,000 question is still why are ANY large genomed eukaryotes still alive and how did they get here in the first place.DaveScot
June 12, 2008
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The Modern age with all of its horrors was based on the notion that men could dispense with God and make their own happiness. It has been all down hill since the "Enlightenment" when men decided all they needed was "reason". I suppose it is wishful thinking to want to go back to before those days.poachy
June 12, 2008
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Junkyard, Maybe I should make it clear what I am arguing for. I am arguing for the Theistic ID/GE mo^del which will hold that a single male and female parent species (kind) is created by God with all inbuilt ability for variation of kind built in and that once God has created the species (kind) and He does not "tinker" with it anymore after he created it. Letting nature take its course with Genetic Entropy, so to say. So we have a overall mo^del to make predictions with. What predictions can we make with this mo^del? Well we can infer quite a lot actually. We can infer rapid environmentally driven adaptations that will all come at a cost of the original information in the genome of the parent species i.e. loss of Genetic Diversity with sub-speciation events. We can predict that sub-species will have less ability to sub-speciate than the original parent species did. We can predict that any naturally occurring mutations to the parent species genome will be detrimental to the overall complexity of the genome even though the "loss of information" may be beneficial for adaptations. We can predict that the longer God does not touch His creation and the longer "nature" alters the genome the more likely the species will lose variability (adaptive flexibility) and the more likely it is the species (kind) will go extinct. I probably left a few predictions out but this should be basic outline of the Theistic ID/GE mo^del. Well what does the fossil record overwhelmingly say? “As Niles Eldredge and Stephen Jay Gould pointed out almost three decades ago, the general pattern for the evolution of diversity (as shown by the fossil record) follows precisely this pattern: a burst of rapid diversity following a major ecological change, and then a gradual decline in diversity over relatively long periods of time.” Allen MacNeill PhD (teaches evolution) The key mystery that the mouflon (parent) sheep surprised evolutionists with is no surprise to this . As well junkyard, you seem to be stuck on a Cambrian mo^del for some sort of possible introduction of information from an "outside source". Yet I point out that this position is not sufficient to explain the fossil record as well as all other overriding evidences.bornagain77
June 12, 2008
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ba77: "JT: it seems obvious that if a very small group migrates away from a larger group, that the new group will obviously have less genetic diversity than the larger group it came from. ba77: You would think so yet this study begs to differ: Single male and female sheep maintain genetic diversity. A mouflon (considered the parent species of sheep) population, bred over dozens of generations from a single male and female pair transplanted to Haute Island from a Parisian zoo, has maintained the genetic diversity of its founding parents. --------------- I said that a smaller group leaving a larger one had less genetic diversity than the entire larger group it came from. I did not say that a group of descendents from a single breeding pair would have less diversity than the single breeding pair they came from. The article says that genetic drift is generally held to decrease genetic diversity over time, but that in this case the harshness and variability of the environment kept the species "on their toes". However genetic drift has been observed repeatedly. This one incident hasn't invalidated it. But anyway, a much smaller subgroup would be less diverse than a larger group they migrated from because they were a smaller group, not because of genetic drift. So Junkyard according to what you wrote, evolutionary theory did not predict this yet ID/Genetic Entropy does for ID/GE predicts that a parent species will maintain greater CSI diversity over sub-species strains. I'm confused. How did ID/GE predict these results if they predict a lessing of diversity due to genetic entropy and here we have a maintaining of genetic diversity. Maybe entropy is not even relevant here, but how does it predict a maintaining of diversity. (And once again, I personally was talking about something different.) The thing that causes loss of genetic diversity is a culling of preexisting CSI. Is not CSI a near synonym for genetic diversity. So a loss of of genetic diversity is caused by a culling of genetic diversity. I assume you mean this culling is always due to entropy. So genetic drift or natural selection never cause it? Your Salt Lake City and New York City comparison I believe is an attempt at obfuscation since you clearly know we are talking about the genetic diversity of specific races. It wasn't such an attempt. You have a smaller group migrating aways a much larger one. I intended it as directly comparable to the Africa example. This primary claim of Genetic Entropy is exactly what we have in the trilobite studies as well as in the overall pattern of the fossil record. I sincerely don't think that's the case. Not that I don't accept that genetic entropy is a meaningful concept if applied correctly. I accept the possibility that overall, there may have been a gradual decrease in inherent genetic potential since the Cambrian Explosion due to general decay. After all, we know that organisms die. Maybe the entire worldwide organism is gradually dying. But I think the reduction in trilobyte diversity would have to do with competitive factors and matching to the environment. And possibly also genetic drift. But as I said, in the case of wolves we know there was a huge amount of diversity there even though not expressed but that could still be retrieved, and could probably be the same with trilobytes (just repeating my previous post now). But even something that is dying overall could be growing in another sense. Gene flow and the like have generated new varieties that were not visibly present at the Cambrian Explosion. Also organisms would not have displayed certain inherent potentials they had until migrating to an environment where those traits were needed. So you would have to look at the unfolding history of life. Its not as if you are born (or rather conceived) and then immmediately start growing old with everything down hill from there. Should not I naturally expect to see more genetic Diversity for sub-speciation, events, at least sometimes if Darwinism is true? It seems there would have to be, unless the Cambrian explosion were just all of life in its grand potential just materializing instantaneously, and simulatentously appearing across the planet in mature forms and at peak population levels. w/ apologies if I've missed some of your points.JunkyardTornado
June 12, 2008
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The most obvious evidence we have for Genetic Entropy, and against evolution, is found in the rampant problem of inbreeding. Inbreeding is a major and serious problem facing ALL major domesticated plants that man raises for food, and ALL major animals that man raises for food and companionship. Indeed inbreeding is even a problem for humans themselves. As well, Inbreeding can be found to be a major problem in many "wild" populations such as the cheetah and the panda. What are the adverse effects of Inbreeding; Here is a list from: http://cc.ysu.edu/~helorime/inbred.html Inbreeding and it's General Effects Inbreeding depression encompasses a wide variety of physical and health defects. Any given inbred animal generally has several, but not all, of these defects. These defects include: Elevated incidence of recessive genetic diseases Reduced fertility both in litter size and in sperm viability Increased congenital defects such as cryptorchidism, heart defects, cleft palates. Fluctuating assymetry (such as crooked faces, or uneven eye placement and size). Lower birthweight Higher neonatal mortality Slower growth rate Smaller adult size, and Loss of immune system function. Evolution tries to get around this problem of inbreeding by saying that large populations will almost never suffer from the problem of inbreeding because the genetic diversity of the larger populations of the species as a whole will prevent the recessive deleterious genetic mutations from ever being expressed. The mutation, evolutionists say, will drift away or it will "magically disappear all together by evolutionary slight of hands" or if it is expressed it will quickly be removed by natural selection).. Yet in order for a recessive deleterious mutation to actually be removed from a population it must in fact become dominant in an individual organism (or remutated to its non-deleterious state), for the organism to be "naturally selected" against and removed from the population. Well what is the recessive mutation doing the whole time while it is waiting to be expressed in an organism so as to be removed from the population? Well obviously, it is spreading throughout the entire population is what it is doing! Natural selection is absolutely powerless to remove the deleterious mutations before it becomes dominant and is expressed. And bear in mind that the vast majority of mutations are in fact now proven to be "slightly" detrimental and recessive in their expression. Thus what we really have is a ticking time bomb for all species on earth since they were created. Indeed, the fossil record shows a fairly constant extinction rate of 3-5million years that is not due to natural catastrophe and most likely is due to "Genetic Meltdown" brought by the "mutational load" brought about by all these deleterious mutations accumulating in genomes. What inbreeding does is in fact allow the recessive mutations, which would not normally be expressed for many generations, to be expressed very quickly. This is because when siblings mate, the defective mutations, that were in one parent and are not "softened" with another genome that does not have the mutation, and they are expressed much more quickly than they normally would be. "Human life expectancy presently has an average of about 70 years, and a maximum near 120. However, when first cousins marry, their children have a reduction of life expectancy of nearly 10 years. Why is this?" It is because inbreeding exposes the genetic mistakes within the genome (recessive mutations) that have not yet had time to come to the surface". Inbreeding is like a sneak preview, or foreshadowing, of where we are going genetically as a species. The reduced life expectancy of inbred children reflects the overall aging of the genome, and reveals the hidden reservoir of genetic damage (recessive mutation) that has been accumulating. If all this genetic damage were exposed suddenly (if we were all made perfectly inbred and homozygous)- it would be perfectly lethal-we all would be de^ad, our species would instantly become extinct." (Dr. J.C. Sanford PhD.; Genetic Entropy, page 147) So, I maintain inbreeding is in fact showing us exactly what evolution does in the long term. That is, inbreeding is showing the overwhelming destructive power of "evolution" in a very short time! You see, when a population is inbred it allows the recessive deleterious mutations to become dominant for the offspring. deleterious mutations find there match to become dominant Indeed, Inbreeding is a forecaster of what is in store for the population in the future once the "deleterious mutational load" builds up because the deleterious mutations are never, ever, dealt with and WILL CERTAINLY find its match in the genome, sometime, to make it a dominant defect instead of a recessive defect that is below the power of natural selection to remove from the genome.bornagain77
June 12, 2008
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Junkyard, it seems obvious that if a very small group migrates away from a larger group, that the new group will obviously have less genetic diversity than the larger group it came from. You would think so yet this study begs to differ: Single male and female sheep maintain genetic diversity. A mouflon (considered the parent species of sheep) population, bred over dozens of generations from a single male and female pair transplanted to Haute Island from a Parisian zoo, has maintained the genetic diversity of its founding parents. This finding challenges the widely accepted theory of genetic drift, which states the genetic diversity of an inbred population will decrease over time. “What is amazing is that models of genetic drift predict the genetic diversity of these animals should have been lost over time, but we’ve found that it has been maintained,” said Dr. David Coltman, an evolutionary geneticist at the University of Alberta. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/03/070309103157.htm So Junkyard according to what you wrote, evolutionary theory did not predict this yet ID/Genetic Entropy does for ID/GE predicts that a parent species will maintain greater CSI diversity over sub-species strains. The thing that causes loss of genetic diversity is a culling of preexisting CSI. Your Salt Lake City and New York City comparison I believe is an attempt at obfuscation since you clearly know we are talking about the genetic diversity of specific races. But to your main point which I think you are sincere about; But as Jerry has pointed out that has nothing to do with the accumulation of harmful mutations somehow decimating a population over time, which is what genetic entropy is supposed to be. Well Junkyard, evolution (sometimes when its convenient (LOL)) makes the grand claim that all species arose from a universal common ancestor and in contrast Genetic Entropy makes the grand claim that the variability of a parent species will decline over time. This primary claim of Genetic Entropy is exactly what we have in the trilobite studies as well as in the overall pattern of the fossil record. “As Niles Eldredge and Stephen Jay Gould pointed out almost three decades ago, the general pattern for the evolution of diversity (as shown by the fossil record) follows precisely this pattern: a burst of rapid diversity following a major ecological change, and then a gradual decline in diversity over relatively long periods of time.” Allen MacNeill PhD (teaches evolution) As well Genetic Entropy will hold that a parent species and all its sub-species will gradually become extinct after this Gradual loss of diversity. Extinction is held to be due to accumulated deleterious mutations resulting in "mutational meltdown. Again this is exactly what the trilobite study tells us. As well the overall fossil record points to this since 90% of extinctions in the fossil are caused by some unknown natural mechanism that is not attributable to natural disasters. Genetic Entropy fits the unknown mechanism very well. So we have Genetic Entropy verified in all its primary premises in the fossil record and Evolution is not verified in any of its primary premises in the fossil record. To genetics: So I go to genetics and find that a loss of gentic diversity occurs with sub-speciation events (I was actually pleasantly surprised to find this out) Yet, You claim I am somehow cheating with the evidence to say that sub-species have less genetic diversity than a parent species, Why do you say this? Is not evoultion making the grand clam that random mutations, which are suppose to be what is actually generating more genetic diversity and variability to account for the profusion of life we see around us, are what is in fact driving speciation events? Should not I naturally expect to see more genetic Diversity for sub-speciation, events, at least sometimes if Darwinism is true? Does or Does not Evolution have the grand power of creating new species of life with new more diverse genetic information that you and other evolutionists claim it does? Why must all sub-speciation events I can find be accompanied by a loss of genetic diversity if evolution is true? For you to hold that evolution can create life and then say that all sub-speciation events, that we can currently measure with science, will come at a loss of Genetic diversity is in fact two different claims. You can't have it both ways, as with bacteria, you must present complexity that is above the level of the parent species to prove evolution true?bornagain77
June 12, 2008
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More on Muller's Ratchet (for linkage blocks in sexually reproducing species):
The most obvious and extreme form of slection interference is when there is tight physical linkage between beneficial and deleterious mutations. This results in an irreconcilable problem which has been termed Muller's Ratchet. Genetic Entropy page 81
and
Essentially all of the genome exists in large linkage blocks (Tishkoff and Verrelli, 2003), so this problem applies to virtually every single "building block" of the genome
With respect to linkage blocks, does this mean when re-combination happens between the DNA of mom and dad, the mixing does not happen at the gene level, but large blocks of genes and other DNA? If so, Sanford highlights the difficulty of Muller's Ratchet on linkage blocks in sexually reproducing creatures:
Within any given physical linkage unit, there should be, on average, thousands of deleterious mutations accumulated before the first beneficial mutation would even arise... Every single beneficial mutation would be inseparably tied to a large number of deleterious mutations.
Let us supppose we have a linkage block with 20,000 deleterious mutations, and then there appears 1 beneficial one in the linkage block. Sure sleection might happen in favor of the beneficial, but it doesn't appear that there is much route for the 20,000 deleterious mutation to be purged once this linkage block has been fixed into the population.scordova
June 12, 2008
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As far as I’m aware, the X chromosome can recombine. The Y chromosome can’t, which is probably why it’s so small and scrappy - it has suffered from genetic entropy. In some species, the Y chromosome (or its equivalent) is simply missing. Of course, this should raise questions about why the other chromosomes haven’t degraded. According to wiki, mitochondria can undergo recombination, but this is rare. It’s worth pointing out that, because each cell contains several mitochondria, the population size is larger, so mutational meltdown will be slower than in the Y chromosome.
Thank you, Bob. It would appear that mitochondiral DNA and Y-chromosomes in humans would be subject to Muller's ratchet. In that sense, Muller's ratchet can be applied to sexually reproducing species. Is that a reasonable statement? Thanks again.
Of course, this should raise questions about why the other chromosomes haven’t degraded.
Agreed. I maintain the possibilty that a recent creation of certain life forms is the reason. It is possible the universe is old, but certain life-forms (in their current state) are recent. It is also possible a front-loaded event happened to create these life forms. I have my opinions.... I could of course be wrong, but your question still appears to be a legitimate question.scordova
June 12, 2008
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Junkyardtornado, Hybridization is just another name for gene flow which is a basic part of the evolutionary synthesis. Essentially it is an increase in the gene pool by combining two isolated populations of the same species.jerry
June 12, 2008
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bornagain77, Your answers indicate you do not understand anything I have said and you continue to try to destroy things I have not said. I suggest you read carefully what I say and respond to that as opposed to what you want to destroy. Let me make it clear for you. The current evolutionary synthesis predicts a narrowing of the gene pool of a population over time. This is exactly what you see in your trilobite example and your other examples. It has nothing to do with genetic entropy. This narrowing of the gene pool is due to isolation and environmental pressures selecting for a subset of the genome which leads to a lost of variety in the gene pool. The Darwinist counters this trend of a narrowing gene pool which is predicted by the evolutionary synthesis by saying that there will be new variation created by mutation events which will expand the gene pool. While there is plenty of information for mutation events, Sanford asserts a high rate, there is no evidence of this ever producing anything meaningful and Behe's Edge of Evolution provides empirical support as to why. Sanford's ideas lead to an immensely more varied gene pool but the variety is dysfunctional and according to Sanford will lead to extinction but not necessarily to less variety in the species. So it is elements of the Darwinian paradigm that point to the narrowing gene pools and not Sanford. I am surprised that no one else has not pointed this out to you. The term entropy represents the chaos Sanford says is happening to all the genomes and not some narrowing of them. The basic argument between ID and those who support naturalistic evolution for everything hangs primarily on the creation of new variation in the gene pool and not on the processes of micro evolution which are widely accepted by ID and which predict narrower gene pools over time. Not everything the Darwinists say is nonsense. Micro evolution which they frequently point to is well established.jerry
June 12, 2008
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Was thinking about hybridization as a source of new information. Anything different than what was already in a population, if it is introduced into that population, will result in new vigor and new novel hybrids with characteristics not previously seen in either variant. That is the source of new information in the genome that we typically see, and it could not have less to do with design, rather its just, "let's throw something really really different into the mix." Invaribly the result is always good. This really doesn't have the rigor of some of the arguments in this thread, admittedly. There's not just a continual degradation we see in nature. Species are rejunventated, novel characterisitcs are expressed, by new diffent genetic info being randomly introduced into a population, or new traits being brought out as a result of a new physical environment. If a Cave Fish loses its eyes because it doesn't need them, then some other trait is developing, wich was not expressed in previous populations. Do we have any indication that eyes in general are disappearing from the planet? Or Wings? Or infrared vision. Humans may no longer have infrared vision, but its not going anyhwhere, and furthermore we got something better in exchange.JunkyardTornado
June 12, 2008
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Furthermore, if I’m not mistaken, mitochondrial DNA in human females, and the Y-chromosome in human males — are ther limintations to recombination here? I think there is much not recombination from the male side [PT posted some issues about weak recombination from father's to mitochondrial DNA, but it's not much]. Although I have Sykes book on the Y-Chromosome, I don’t have it handy. Help anyone.
As far as I'm aware, the X chromosome can recombine. The Y chromosome can't, which is probably why it's so small and scrappy - it has suffered from genetic entropy. In some species, the Y chromosome (or its equivalent) is simply missing. Of course, this should raise questions about why the other chromosomes haven't degraded. According to wiki, mitochondria can undergo recombination, but this is rare. It's worth pointing out that, because each cell contains several mitochondria, the population size is larger, so mutational meltdown will be slower than in the Y chromosome.Bob O'H
June 12, 2008
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scordova (#39) "Wholescale decimation is not necessarily implied by theory of gentic entropy. You’re making misrepresentations. You can have large populations of damaged individuals like populations wingless beetles, blind cave fish, or the other species I listed. Furthermore, the decimation may yet happen" Actually, it seems like genetic entropy as a valid principle at least in certain identified contexts would already be quite obvious to everyone, for example, aristocratic dynasties of Europe or Egypt, or in the Appalachians, or Utah, or what have you. (I presume that's the same concept.) So does anyone actually deny this. So the question is, the extent of entropy, and the frequency and source of new genetic info entering into the system. Did new info just happen once eons ago, with no new natural sources since then? Concerning cave fish - had one of those once - revolting fish that swims around constantly moving it jaws hoping to swim into something to eat; it ate all the fins off of a siamese fighting fish.JunkyardTornado
June 12, 2008
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Junkyard wrote: Its already been observed in this thread that the wholescale decimation implied by the theory of generic entropy has not been observed.
Junk, Wholescale decimation is not necessarily implied by theory of gentic entropy. You're making misrepresentations. You can have large populations of damaged individuals like populations wingless beetles, blind cave fish, or the other species I listed. Furthermore, the decimation may yet happen. You're making assumptions about how recent the healthiest individuals appeared on the planet. For the sake of argument, even though I'm a creationist, we could argue ET's or a general front loaded event happened recently, but the decimation may yet come. Also, it may be hard to observe something if one is not carefully looking for it. I pointed out, some Darwinists are already arguing for "the survival of the sickest" because they are hard pressed to explain the persistence of genetic illness in light of Darwin's theory.scordova
June 12, 2008
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For the readers' benefit, to illustrate the questions at hand, I point to an extreme example where x-ray radiation is at play (a topic for which Muller won the Nobel Prize): Consider a population of 10 individuals each with a genome of 4-giga base pairs. They are subjected to intense x-ray bombardment such that each individual on average will get 1,000,000 bad mutations and 1 good mutation. Can any amount of Darwinian selection clear out the genome of such a population if 1,000,000 bad mutations and 1 good mutation are added to each individual on average in each generation? Even if each indivdual bore 100 kids on average and we killed off 99% of the offspring, we would not be able to keep pace against genetic entropy... The relationship of the number of offspring needed to the mutation rate "u" is exponential. For u = 0.1 we need 2.4 kids per couple just to meet the selective costs. For u = 3 we need 40 kids per couple! Published estimates of u are higher than 3, maybe 100. I don't know, but it's worth looking into. For discussion of "u", see: Nachman's U-Paradox.scordova
June 12, 2008
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BA77 (#5) You point to the genetic diversity of one group of modern day humans (Africans) and compare that to the lesser genetic diversity of other groups that diverged from them. You also compare modern day wolves to modern day dogs to the same end. But it seems obvious that if a very small group migrates away from a larger group, that the new group will obviously have less genetic diversity than the larger group it came from.
The current state of science has humans migrating out of Africa 50,000 years ago. It is currently proven that the current African populations have more diversity of Genetic information than any other race of humans.
You could also point to genetic diversity in New York City and compare that to the relative lack of it in Salt Lake City and use that to indicate genetic entropy because the Mormon sect migrated from the east. But as Jerry has pointed out that has nothing to do with the accumulation of harmful mutations somehow decimating a population over time, which is what genetic entropy is supposed to be. Now that I think of it though, a small isolated population does tend have an accumulation of harmful genetics leading to decimation. But the remedy to that is always the introduction of new genetic variability from an outside source leading to new hybrids which then predominate.
The trilobite head alone, for example, displays many such characteristics. These include differences in ornamentation, number and placement of spines, and the shape of head segments... more than 70 percent of early and middle Cambrian species exhibited variation, while only 13 percent of later trilobite species did so ... Some sequences found in dogs were identical to those in wolves… The sequence divergence within dogs was surprisingly large: the mean sequence divergence in dogs 2.06 + or - 0.07% was almost identical to the 2.10 + or - 0.04% (sequence divergence) found within wolves. (notice that sequence divergence is slightly smaller for the population of dogs than for the population of wolves) ... Of special note for the Mexican hairless dog (chihuahas)...The gene that determines hairlessness is dominant but lethal when homozygous...Thus clearly the “mutation” that causes hairlessness is not a gain in information.
(BTW, No one thinks that the morphologic variability in dogs as compared to wolves has anything to do with mutations that have occurred since their divergence.). So in the case of the wolf there was all this latent variability preserved presumably for eons, even though it wasn't favored by survival. Then when humans start dog-breeding, they were immediately able to retrieve all this variability. Shouldn't we assume the same would happen if humans had started breeding trilobytes. But to return to the accumulation of harmful mutations in a small in-breeding population. Maybe this principle could be extrapolated to a macro scale and imply that unless new genetic material comes onto the planet (from an "outside source") that worldwide gradual extinction is inevitable. So the Cambrian explosion was the source of genetic variability that has been dwindling ever since (presumably). But Darwinists etc. would assume the Cambrian explosion itself was a natural event. So shouldn't ID be trying to prove that the Cambrian explosion could not be a natural event. Its already been observed in this thread that the wholescale decimation implied by the theory of generic entropy has not been observed. Thus the premise of the Kondrashov article from the OP, "Why have we not died 100 times over" Just to repeat my own comments regarding this paper when scordova brought it up in the "Gambler's Ruin" thread: So, if I’m reading the abstract (which is all that’s available) correctly, it is known fact that neutral mutations are accumulating in a typical species to such a great extent that a lot of harmful configurations of this introduced genetic material has occurred, and yet it is also known that somehow these suboptimal configurations are being dealt with (by some unknown mechanism?). So if they’re being dealt with - its not by miraculous intervention presumably.JunkyardTornado
June 12, 2008
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Off Topic video: Answering the New Atheism: Part 2 Author's Scott Hahn and Benjamin Wiker collaborate to debunk Dawkins' theories and show how inconsistent and illogical his conclusions truly are. http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=4ab6844004f641031562bornagain77
June 12, 2008
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Strike at the core, strike at the heart of Darwinism and the utter destruction it wreaked on science as well as culture and the arts. Darwin's metanarrative stirred up religious fervor for one reason only: it implied progress. We bought into his materialism because he succeeded in convincing us that nature itself was making things better. Muller's research shows that this is nonsense. No ameliorative power of any kind is obervable in nature at the molecular level. Nature has no intrinsic capacity to produce anything of value. The Modern age with all of its horrors was based on the notion that men could dispense with God and make their own happiness. Now that the myth of progress has been exposed, it becomes possible to break the stranglehold of Darwinism on the human spirit and being a new dialogue.allanius
June 12, 2008
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You may already be aware of this study Sal but if not here it is: The Strength of Phenotypic Selection in Natural Populations This review demonstrates that our information about the strength of phenotypic selection in natural populations has increased dramatically in the past 2 decades, but many important issues about selection remain unresolved. http://www.oeb.harvard.edu/faculty/hoekstra/PDFs/Kingsolver2001AmNat.pdfbornagain77
June 12, 2008
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The weakness of the Darwinian paradigm has always been on the creation of new meaningful variation
Well, it appears there are more weakness, and the weakness in question is that ability of Darwinian Selection to weed out the bad. Furthermore, this aspect is emprically testable.... The original Darwinian paradigm (as stated by Darwin himself):
Natural Selection is daily and hourly scrutinising, throughout the world, the slightest variations; rejecting those that are bad, preserving and adding up all that are good. C.DARWIN sixth edition Origin of Species — Ch#4 Natural Selection
We know that standard genetics has absolutely refuted this utopian view of selection. Darwinian selection does not hourly weed out the bad nor preserve ALL that is good. At issue is the search for evidence for how poorly Darwinian selection is unable to weed out the bad in the current day. Notice I try to refrain from the phrase "Natural Selection", because "Natural Selection" in the Darwinian sense is not observed to be what really happens in nature when illuminated by modern science.scordova
June 12, 2008
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Jerry; As I have seen numerous times, Darwinism can predict anything and can be falsified by absolutely nothing, thus it totally useless as theory of biological origins, (Useless except as it is used as a foil to refine the proper ID ). Whereas Genetic Entropy/ID also predicts the same pattern a loss of variety and Genetic diversity and can be falsified by showing sub-species that have greater potential diversity than the parent strain. Even in the recently touted acquired citrate ability of E-coli. I can surmise that it came at a loss of CSI and this can probably be verified by testing for the range of substrates that are utilized by each strain. Regardless, the fact that the mutant strain of E-coli will soon be out-competed by the Parent strain in the original environment clearly shows that the bacteria have not passed the threshold of complexity generation necessary to prove evolution true. Thus it goes on and on Jerry, evolutionists forever chasing their tail in a circle trying to find the elusive conclusive piece of evidence that will vindicate their theory, all the while the public is misled into thinking evolutionary theory has been proved true repeatedly. NO, Jerry, come to think of it, after 150 + years of evolutionists failing to provide conclusive evidence I am not worried in the least that evolution will suddenly be proved right.bornagain77
June 12, 2008
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bb wrote: scordova, John Sanford has a simulation program for modeling genetic change over time called Mendel’s Accountant. You can get more information and a link to a free download at http://mendelsaccountant.info/ . The program requires Apache Server and Perl and will run within a browser on your PC or Mac. I’m interested to know what you think about it since I’m not qualified to judge. I can point you to resources for installing and and configuring Apache and Perl if you need it.
That would be wonderful. Thank you for bringing this to my attention... I'll be meeting with Walter ReMine this month, and hope to see John Sanford in August at the ICC2008 conference. This really should be project that non-ID folk should be interested in since it deals with issues relevant to medical science. The major party on the non-ID side that has done independent work on the topic is Oxford Geneticist Bryan Sykes and friends. Sykes authored Adam's Curse:
Sykes concludes by noting that, as evidenced by declining sperm counts and high percentages of abnormal sperm, among other variables, the Y chromosome is a genetic mess and is deteriorating so quickly that men could become extinct.
Sykes gives the human race 100,000 years.... Some other geneticists have a grim view for humainity's genes (but for very different reasons). See: JohnJoe McFadden Our Genes are Doomed.scordova
June 12, 2008
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bornagain77, I suggest you tone down your rhetoric. If for example it turns out I am right then you will look foolish with some of your comments. You don't seem to understand how micro evolution works and what are the basic tenets of it and where are the weak points of the Darwinian paradigm in total. It is not on the genetic side which is where your examples are from. Genetics predicts all the things you are bringing up. The weakness of the Darwinian paradigm has always been on the creation of new meaningful variation which is why the trilobites gene pool became narrower and narrower. That is what the Edge of Evolution is all about.jerry
June 12, 2008
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Salvador, You are right, And I apologize to you Bob for my being a bit to witty in my responses to you. You are indeed a valuable counter-balance to debate with.bornagain77
June 12, 2008
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[note: correction to above post]
If we combine Muller’s recognition of near-neutral (i.e. un-selectable) mutation, with his recognition of mutational advance, we see that no selection system can stop “Muller’s Ratchet”. Even in Sexual species. page 166 Genetic Entropy
scordova
June 12, 2008
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