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Sabine Hossenfelder tackles trans women in women’s sports

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And ends by saying that childhood genetic engineering will probably bring an end to high achiever sports altogether:

In 2019 a team of European researchers from the Netherlands, Norway and Belgium measured the change in grip strength for trans people after a year of hormonal therapy. They had about 250 trans women and trans men each who participated in their study. So this isn’t a huge sample but decent.

They found that grip strength decreased in trans women by minus 1 point 8 kilogram but increased in trans men by 6 point 1 kilogram. In trans men, but not in trans women, the change in grip strength was associated with change in lean body mass. So it seems that hormonal therapy does more for trans men than for trans women.

Another team of researchers from Sweden followed 11 untrained trans women and 12 untrained trans men before and up to one year after gender-affirming hormonal therapy.

They found that in trans women thigh muscle volume decreased by 5 percent and quadriceps cross-sectional area decreased by 4 percent, but muscle density remained unchanged and they roughly maintained their strength levels. In trans men, on the other hand, thigh muscle volume increased by 15 percent; quadriceps cross-sectional area also increased by 15 percent, muscle density increased by 6 percent, and they saw increased strength levels. Again it seems that hormonal therapy does more for trans men than for trans women.

It’d be rather tedious to list all the papers, so let me just say that this finding has been reproduced numerous times.

Sabine Hossenfelder, “Trans athletes in women’s sports: Is this fair?” at BackRe(Action) (June 4, 2022)

The rest of Hossenfelder’s take feels like it is aimed at avoiding watching her career sail off a cliff.

Hmmm. It is interesting that recently, Dave Chappelle, Bill Marr, and Ricky Gervais, American comics, have been able to say pretty much what they want on transgender claims — not without provoking rage — but without getting Canceled.

Comments
Let the women (adult human females) who actually play in the leagues decide democratically whether or not to allow penis-holders into the league.Paxx
June 6, 2022
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So, billiards and darts? Curling? The women's national soccer team gets beat by high school boys. Just to show the huge disparity in physical talent between males and femalesET
June 6, 2022
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When a male decides to transition to a female he gives up all privileges to compete as the gender of choice against cis females. However, I would allow them to compete as long as their place doesn't matter to anyone but themselves and their family. Meaning they do not get a trophy or ribbon.ET
June 6, 2022
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Not if the sport doesn’t involve the type of strength that the average man has in greater amount than the average woman.
And what sport would that be?jerry
June 6, 2022
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"Not if the sport doesn’t involve the type of strength that the average man has in greater amount than the average woman." So ‘some’ biological men would have to be ‘handicapped’ from competing in women's sports altogether? Like in track and field, and swimming, and etc..?bornagain77
June 6, 2022
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Belfast: Demanding that your comment be read for its content
I’m not demanding anything. You and KF, and everyone else, is free to read into my comment whatever they want. Just as I am free to ignore anyone who prefers to misrepresent my comments rather than make an attempt to understand them.JHolo
June 6, 2022
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AC: Same sex marriage, inter-racial marriage, acceptance of homosexuality and so on were policies that ENABLED and ENRICHED people and didn’t took anything away from others.
I suspect that there are some here who would disagree with you.
On the other hand every trans woman in womens sports TAKES AWAY opportunities from women.
Not if the sport doesn’t involve the type of strength that the average man has in greater amount than the average woman.JHolo
June 6, 2022
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@JH:
We saw it with women’s rights, the civil rights movement, desegregation, inter-racial marriage, the acceptance of homosexuality. Later we saw it with same sex marriage, gay couples adopting and now with transgendered rights.
Same sex marriage, inter-racial marriage, acceptance of homosexuality and so on were policies that ENABLED and ENRICHED people and didn't took anything away from others. On the other hand every trans woman in womens sports TAKES AWAY opportunities from women.AndyClue
June 5, 2022
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JH; Demanding that your comment be read for its content is an old stunt to evade revealing one’s opinion; Thackeray laughed it in the Victorian age. It is frequently found in marital rows where one party insists on it, as in ‘’I merely (simply, only, just, plainly, clearly) said…” while reserving the right to read the other’s comment for implications and innuendo. Indeed, you refused to read BA at 5 for content, but insisted that you be so read.Belfast
June 5, 2022
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So 'some' biological men would have to be 'handicapped' from competing altogether? Like in track and field, and swimming, and etc..? I don't think you have thought this all the way through Seversky. which is par for the course for you.bornagain77
June 5, 2022
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Bornagain77/21
You yourself admitted it is currently a great disservice to women when you proposed ‘handicapping’ to alleviate the obvious unfairness of biological men competing against women in women’s sports.
Are featherweight boxers being unfairly handicapped by only being matched against other fighters from that weight division rather than against middleweights or heavyweights against whom they would stand little chance? Isn't the purpose to give all competitors at least a sporting chance of winning?Seversky
June 5, 2022
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“In what ways would it be a disservice to women?” What is a woman? Vividvividbleau
June 5, 2022
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New York Times Reveals Painful Truths About "Sex Change" Surgery Chu acknowledges that the surgery won’t actually “reassign” sex: “My body will regard the vagina as a wound." Chu acknowledges that “transitioning” may not make things better and could even make things worse. We need to find better, more humane and effective, responses to people who experience dysphoria.,,, ,,, Cosmetic surgery and cross-sex hormones don’t change biological reality. People who undergo sex-reassignment procedures do not become the opposite sex—they merely masculinize or feminize their outward appearance. https://www.heritage.org/gender/commentary/new-york-times-reveals-painful-truths-about-sex-change-surgerybornagain77
June 5, 2022
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Relatd/17
Men are not women.
True, but so what? Human sexuality has both physiological and psychological components. In the vast majority of cases the physiological and psychological are aligned. Individuals are physically male or female and content to be so. But in a small number of cases there appears to be a misalignment. Individuals who are physically one sex feel themselves to belong to the other sex. If sexual reassignment procedures can be offered, even though they ae not perfect, then why not? If it makes that individual more content with their lot in life, then why not? Who is harmed?Seversky
June 5, 2022
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"In what ways would it be a disservice to women?" You yourself admitted it is currently a great disservice to women when you proposed 'handicapping' to alleviate the obvious unfairness of biological men competing against women in women's sports..bornagain77
June 5, 2022
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Bornagain77/16
Are you for biological men competing in women’s sports? and/or do you think that society would be better for it?
I would support transgender women competing in sports against cisgender women as long as the levels of competition are structured so as to minimize the physiological advantages the trans women might have, rather like the way boxing is divided into weight divisions. In don't see how society could be harmed by it and if it encouraged greater toleration of diversity then society would benefit to that extent.
Personally, I think it is blatantly obvious that it is a great disservice to women and thus society would be worse for it.
In what ways would it be a disservice to women?Seversky
June 5, 2022
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"I am not a trained monkey" But are you a hairless monkey? :) https://tenor.com/view/now-thats-funny-laughing-gif-11094450bornagain77
June 5, 2022
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KF: Why won’t you answer the question(s)?
Because I am not a trained monkey, required to do whatever you demand. If I thought that you were open to an honest discussion on the subject, I would answer.JHolo
June 5, 2022
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BA 77 at 16, Men are not women. I don't think many people understand the process or how this came about. Around 1980, I came to work and noticed a posted notice that the hospital would begin performing "sexual reassignment surgery." I sat down with two doctors who performed the procedures. They gave me a good understanding of what's involved. One employee, a woman, had the procedure. Now wearing men's clothes and having a mustache, there was no possibility of covering up the basic female bone structure.relatd
June 5, 2022
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Why won't you answer the question(s)? Are you for biological men competing in women’s sports? and/or do you think that society would be better for it? Personally, I think it is blatantly obvious that it is a great disservice to women and thus society would be worse for it..bornagain77
June 5, 2022
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Relatd: My reading comprehension is fine. The current push to promote transgenderism needs to be fully addressed.
And, in time, it will be. As the past pushes to accept women’s rights, black rights, homosexual rights and the rights of same sex marriage have been. The fact that they may not be addressed to your satisfaction doesn’t mean that they haven’t been fully addressed.JHolo
June 5, 2022
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JH at 12, My reading comprehension is fine. The current push to promote transgenderism needs to be fully addressed.relatd
June 5, 2022
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Opposite sex couples, by nature, are capable of having children. That's why we preserve marriage for the infertile - in respect of the natural capacity. The same it not true of same-sex couples. That's the problem with the parallel you're trying to make.Silver Asiatic
June 5, 2022
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Relatd: Men cannot marry men since they have no biological capacity to have children.
As is the case for many opposite sex couples and most senior couples. Should they be denied marriage? How about opposite sex couples who have no intention of having children? There are reasons for marriage other than children. My children have long left the house, yet I am still married.
Men should not compete in women’s sports, even though they may have some outward female characteristics.
Have I said they should? Are you suffering from the same reading comprehension problem that BA77 is?JHolo
June 5, 2022
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BA77: So again, you are for biological men competing in women’s sports? and/or you think that society would be better for it?
If you are incapable of reading my comment at 4 for content, there is no point trying to discuss this with you.JHolo
June 5, 2022
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JH at 4, Some things are ordered, some are not. You appear to be having difficulty with this. Men cannot marry men since they have no biological capacity to have children. A man cannot become a woman in a true sense. He has no ovaries. Also, the skeletal structure is different. Women have a pelvic tilt men do not have. By the way, I have an acquaintance who went through the process. Last I saw him, we continued a conversation we had had previously when he was male in appearance. His memories did not change. Men should not compete in women's sports, even though they may have some outward female characteristics.relatd
June 5, 2022
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So again, you are for biological men competing in women’s sports? and/or you think that society would be better for it?bornagain77
June 5, 2022
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BA77: Jholo, so you are not talking about the topic of the thread but are talking about something else? i.e. “Sabine Hossenfelder Tackles Trans Women In Women’s Sports”
It is far more on topic than talking about Darwin and sexual selection in this OP. Besides, my comment was in response to Polistra’s comment. And to that it was 100% on topic.JHolo
June 5, 2022
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Jholo, so you are not talking about the topic of the thread but are talking about something else? i.e. "Sabine Hossenfelder Tackles Trans Women In Women’s Sports"bornagain77
June 5, 2022
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BA77: JHolo, so you are for biological men competing in women’s sports? and/or you think that society would be better for it?
Your responses to people would make more sense if you read them for content rather than read into them what you want.JHolo
June 5, 2022
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