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The “quine dilemma” of evolution

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Sorry if this post is a bit for computer programmers, anyway I trust that also the others can grasp the overall picture.

Evolutionists claim that what it takes to evolution to work is simply “a populations of replicators, random variations on them, and a competition for survival or resources”.
Today we will try to partially layout how to simulate on computer such process. First off, we need the replicators, i.e. digital programs able to self-reproduce. In informatics jargon, a computer program able to self-reproduce, i.e. to produce as output a copy of its source code is called a “quine”. Therefore in a sense a quine is a little, minimal digital “bio-cell”. You can write the code of a quine in any programming language. Also with the same language you can do that in various ways. Here I will examine a quine written in Perl language by Tushar Samant, it is but one of many examples.

Its source code is the following:

$a=’X‘; print map “\$a=’$a’; $_, q($_)”, q(print map “\$a=’$a’;$_, q($_)”)

If you have Perl installed on your computer you can easily verify that if you run this script, it prints itself on the screen. Eventually if you redirect the output to a file, such file will be a perfect copy of its generator file.

Von Neumann mathematically proved that a self-reproducing automaton must contain a symbolic description or representation of itself and a constructor (see my previous post). Also our quine contains a symbolic description of itself (the code on the right, the quoted “q(print map…)”), while the code on the left (the first “print map”) is the operation on the description (the constructor), to output the whole quine. Some say that, this way, the quine necessarily works somehow in “auto-referential” mode. (About “quines”, self-reference, automata, meta-languages and artificial intelligence I suggest reading the book by Douglas Hofstadter, “Gödel, Escher, Bach”, 1979.)

Why in the source code I have highlighted in blue color a “neutral” zone, in red color a “critical zone”? This distinction holds not only for this quine, rather for almost all quines (and in a sense even for almost all computer programs or any system in general). Random variations in the red zone destroy the self-reproducing function. Differently, most variations in the neutral zone don’t cause malfunctioning. If, for example, we change the value of the $a variable from “X” to, say, “fb_M+hF6.oia7-jj” we get a bigger script, but it continues to self-replicate.

Now, let’s imagine that we want to develop a small evolution simulator on our computer. We could set an initial number of those quines and make them self-reproduce to obtain a growing population. Eventually we could apply random variations, generation by generation, on their neutral zones. Then we have to write in our evolution simulator a “fitness function” working in this somewhat digital environment. A first simple idea could be to establish that only the bigger quines survive. However such evolution simulation would be very poor. In fact, the variations inside the digital organisms would be trivial, sure no new organization arises. Moreover the fitness function is poorly specified, because what matters is only the quantitative size of the quines, how much they are “fat” so to speak. Certainly no really different organism arise.

Therefore, if we want to test the above evolutionist claim, we could imagine a more complicated fitness function, based on the concept of predation, just a suggestion. The organisms that are somehow able to “eat” parts of other organisms are more fit to survive. They are the “predators”, while the organisms eaten are the “victims”, who necessarily die. This would be similar to what happens in nature per Darwinian selection. Also we could think of a selection based on a competition for resources.

At this point the question is: what variations are necessary to transform our initial quines into evolved predators or resource seekers? No random variation can produce such increase in organization, because, as seen above, almost all random variations in the red zone are fatal and the variations on the blue zone are neutral. However to transform our quines in predators or resource seekers is not impossible. But one has to increase the organization of the critical zone in substantial manner. New source code has to be written in the red zone. Changes in the blue zone are useless. The predation macro function needs sub-functions: movement, enemy detection, fight… Analogously, the resource seeker function needs: movement, resource detection, import of resources…

To keep our discourse simple, as an example, I modified the initial quine with a simple, very rudimental, movement sub-function (which serves to both the higher functions): now the replicator can perform a random walk on a grid with steps of 1 unit in 8 different directions. To do that I used the $p variable to store the X/Y information (where the replicator stays on the grid at a given time). The result could be something like this:

$a=’X‘;$p=q(500_500);$e=q(($x, $y) = split /_/, $p;$x+=int(rand(2))*(-1)**int(rand(2)); $y+=int(rand(2))*(-1)**int(rand(2));$p =~ s/\d+_\d+/${x}_${y}/;);eval $e;print map “\$a=’$a’; \$p=’$p’; \$e=’$e’; eval ‘$e’;$_, q($_)”, q(print map ” \$a=’$a’;\$p=’$p’;\$e=’$e’; eval ‘$e’; $_, q($_)”)

With this modification the automaton continues to be able to self-replicate, and — if introduced in a suitable evolution program simulator (which I have not programmed thus far) — it moves on a grid. Notice however that both the constructor and the symbolic description are changed.

All that leads us directly to what I call the “quine dilemma” of unguided evolution. If random variations are harmless or neutral (blue zone) they create no new organization. If evolution has to create complex functional novelties, new organization, it must operate in the red zone and necessarily become potentially destructive. To speak of “dilemma” here is euphemistic. This dilemma is worse than Hamletic, because de facto is a show-stopper for evolution. The quine dilemma holds in computer programming, as in biology. In fact, in the lab you can crash the cellular replication by introducing random variations in a cell. Needless to say, this dilemma has a lot to do with the experimental fact that unicellulars grown in the lab haven’t yet evolved in … frogs or butterflies (e.g. Lenski’s work).

I like to cite Larry Wall, the computer scientist who invented Perl, who sums it up best: “The potential for greater good goes right along with the potential for greater evil”. Larry said that in the context of software development, but mutatis mutandis it holds also in general, biology included. In short, no power without risk.

I said “biology included” because the objection by evolutionists might be that in biological replicators there is no “quine” problem, because the information for new organization (which random variation applies on) is decoupled from the information for construction. This claim is fully illogical because the information for new organization is the information for construction, what else. An organism is constructed according to assembly instructions. If you want a different organism you have to modify them. No decoupling is possible between instructions and organism because the latter is the direct product (bit by bit) of the former. No decoupling is possible between cause and effect.

To sum up, the initial claim that evolution needs only “a populations of replicators, random variations on them and a competition” is only an hope, because just in simple replicators it crashes against basic conceptual obstacles, one of which is indeed the “quine” dilemma.

Comments
DATCG at 49: I've read over Behe's responses -- several of them -- and haven't found any argument that K76T is deleterious. He doesn't address, for example, why it remains in populations after chloroquine is discontinued, and even remains in populations that regain sensitivity to quinine. I think Behe's entire Edge argument requires limited or narrow pathways, or some obstacle (the grand cnyon is his metaphor). In short, Behe and Wagner are on a collision course. Behe argues that pathways are narrow and full of roadblocks, and Wagner argues that there are innumerable paths. I would also point out that extinction is always an option. If bacteria could quickly evolve resistance to drugs then antibiotics wouldn't work at all. As it is , it takes years for populations to become resistant.Petrushka
January 27, 2015
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Petrushka + Zachariel
You can’t disprove evolution by writing an incompetent computer program.
I have no need of writing computer programs to know that random creation of organization is absurdity raised to the Nth power. Nowhere organization arises without intelligent design. It is a matter of principles. If sometimes at UD I write notes from an informatics point of view it is because usually the readers who work in informatics are particularly apt to grasp the above principles. If I am "incompetent" at simulating evolution, well I wait for competent evolutionists to provide simulations proving their theory of unguided macroevolution of all species from unicellular. No wonder nothing of the sort has been produced by them thus far. It will never be, given the above impossibility.niwrad
January 27, 2015
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thanks Petrushka, was curious if that was it. Aware of Behe's responses to Miller's claims. I'm sure UD will cover it, so I'll await that post and not discuss it more on Niwrad's post.DATCG
January 27, 2015
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niwrad @ 43
Pure contradiction. “Robustness (=resistance to variations) is the enabler for… variations.” Likewise, for you, brake is enabler of speed!
Ha! You have a completely different notion of 'Robustness'. I request you to read the latest literature Eg: Andreas Wagner's papers or you could read his book - 'Arrival of the Fittest'.Me_Think
January 27, 2015
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Put simply, Behe describes a certain mutation -- K76T -- as deleterious. A grand canyon that must be jumped over before it can participate in a beneficial combination. Everyone else seems to disagree. Since K76T shows up wherever malaria is treated with cloroquinine, there are a lot of grand canyon jumpers. I suspect this is a case where Wagner's concept of multiple equivalent metabolic pathways might be relevant. I look forward to the exchange.Petrushka
January 27, 2015
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Datcg at 41: http://www.millerandlevine.com/evolution/behe-2014/Behe-2014.pdf Behe has recently responded. Stay tuned.Petrushka
January 27, 2015
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niwrad: Nowhere I said that a quine is a complete evolution simulator. As pointed out above, a quine, which is a replicating program, is a poor model because it conflates the model and what is being modeled. A proper simulation will be a process independent of the computational system. There will be a replicator, an environment, and a relationship between the two. "You can’t disprove evolution by writing an incompetent computer program." — Petrushka fifthmonarchyman: For convention Let’s call those aspects that can’t be modeled algorithmically “design functions”. Saying not all aspects of evolution can be modeled doesn't mean they are or are not algorithmic. For instance, a sequence folds into a complex three-dimensional shape with unevenly distributed charges. This can't be currently modeled, but it doesn't mean that the folding of enzymes is being done by an external agent. The evidence indicates it's a natural consequence of the molecular structure of the sequence. Indeed, random sequences can fold into structures that are designed to bind to specific substrates.Zachriel
January 27, 2015
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Mapou #26
The only way for evolution to create new genes is via mutations. However, since bacteria could not survive without the ability to exchange genes, evolution never gets started.
Both statements are incorrect. New genes can be generated by recombination - from donor sequence both external and internal to the current cell - as well as by mutation. The boundary of a functional product is no more 'visible' to recombinational mechanisms than it is to mutation. And bacteria don't need to exchange genes to survive. They only need to replicate what they have. Of course getting that going is a tough problem. But such genes as are exchanged are replicated ones - copies of another sequence, not de novo sequences.Hangonasec
January 27, 2015
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Me_Think #38
Do you really think Quine represents these aspects of evolution?"
Nowhere I said that a quine is a complete evolution simulator. However it is a first tile of the puzzle. And this tile just doesn't square with the pretension of unguided evolution.
Robustness is the enabler for searching new pathways and genetic variations.
Pure contradiction. "Robustness (=resistance to variations) is the enabler for... variations." Likewise, for you, brake is enabler of speed!niwrad
January 27, 2015
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Robustness doesn't create anything. Robustness is just a word indicating that equivalent coding strings are always nearby. In terms of evolution, it also helps that there are many functionally equivalent metabolisms. The recent and ongoing research into robustness has changed th terms of the debate. If you want to claim that islands of function are isolated and unreachable, you are going to have to do some actual research. Actually, a lot of research.Petrushka
January 27, 2015
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22 Petrushka said,
"Behe asserted it would take two simultaneous fortuitous mutations, but after the experiments are run, there are at least seven paths involving one mutation at a time."
Can you cite paper and experiments please?DATCG
January 27, 2015
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Me_think says, Did I say RM/NS is abandoned ? Read again: No model can simulate all aspects of evolution. I say, "all aspects" is what I meant when I said "what ever". Read carefully I'm not saying you are abandoning RM/NS. I'm saying your side is abandoning the idea that evolution is algorithmic. If I understand you, you are saying that there are at least some parts of evolution that are non-algorithmic. These are what I'm calling "design functions". What parts of evolution are "design functions"? Is it more that 10%? 50%? peacefifthmonarchyman
January 27, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman @ 37
I’m amazed that the other side is now abandoning the idea that RM/NS plus what ever is algorithmic. If we can’t model evolution what good is it as a materialistic theory?
Did I say RM/NS is abandoned ? Read again: No model can simulate all aspects of evolution.Me_Think
January 27, 2015
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niwrad @ 36
A quine is a model with possibility of replication, memory, inheritance, variation, all things related to evolution of unicellulars
Quine just prints it's own simple source code, so unless you 'pre-load' memory allocation, inheritance and variation in code, you won't get the output. Evolution depends on environment, random genetic mutation and competition pressure which are not just random but temporal too. Do you really think Quine represents these aspects of evolution? Why would anyone create Avida and Mendel's Accountant if all those could be done with a Quine ?!!
(Don’t say “biocells are robust” for I just explained that robustness opposes evolution.)
Why not? Robustness is what creates the genetic and metabolic hyper-dimension network (Wagner et al.). It is the enabler for searching new pathways and genetic variations.Me_Think
January 27, 2015
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I'm amazed that the other side is now abandoning the idea that RM/NS plus what ever is algorithmic. If we can't model evolution what good is it as a materialistic theory? me_thinks says No model can simulate all aspects of evolution. I say, For convention Let's call those aspects that can't be modeled algorithmically "design functions". So now according to ME_think we can say that evolution equals "algorithmic functions" plus "design functions" Can you tell us precisely what aspects of evolution are "design functions"? Thanks in advance peacefifthmonarchyman
January 27, 2015
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Me_Think #33
Quine as an evolutionary model is ‘not even wrong’. You need to raise the level of discussion to atleast Avida Vs Mendel’s Accountant.
A quine is a model with possibility of replication, memory, inheritance, variation, all things related to evolution of unicellulars. So it is not the crap you say. Macroevolution, as meant by all Darwinists, is "unicellular2man" by unintelligent processes. Before "raising the level of discussion" explains why a quine crashes when you apply unintelligent variations to get a new function. (Don't say "biocells are robust" for I just explained that robustness opposes evolution.) If you fail to get a single new function go figure if your blind evolution is able to create organisms, which are giant hierarchies of countless correlated functions.niwrad
January 27, 2015
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Mung @ 34 Computer models do help us in simulating some aspects of evolution - like studying robustness, random walk, creating and testing multidimensional genome networks, studying fitness landscapes etc. Of course none of them can ever match Nature, but they do help in advancing our understanding of the evolutionary process.Me_Think
January 27, 2015
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Me_Think: No model can simulate all aspects of evolution. You're missing the point. We're talking about computer models. Unless some significant progress has been made that I am unaware of, there are no biological computer models. Computer models can tell us nothing about evolution.Mung
January 26, 2015
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No model can simulate all aspects of evolution. Quine as an evolutionary model is 'not even wrong'. You need to raise the level of discussion to atleast Avida Vs Mendel's Accountant.Me_Think
January 26, 2015
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Petrushka: You can’t disprove evolution by writing an incompetent computer program. L Oh freaking L.Mung
January 26, 2015
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Neil Rickert:
Maybe some evolutionists claim that. To me, that looks too simplistic. I see a need for the biology, not just the replication.
ok, but we're talking about computers. You disagree with those who think they can model biology in a computer?
And, as I see it, change in the environment is what drives a lot of evolutionary change.
So change in the environment causes genetic change? How does that work?Mung
January 26, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman: Guaranteeing “fixity” while programing “nonfixity” is a problem that will not be solved by a clever computer program. As there exist evolutionary algorithms that don't crash, it's clear that crashing is not inevitable. fifthmonarchyman: If the weather is algorithmic what I have in my computer can be equivalent in every way to what I see float by on a summer day. What you have in your computer is a model, not clouds. If you model evolution, then you don't have organisms and environments, but models of organisms and environments.Zachriel
January 26, 2015
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This is an excellent topic. From what I know Avida is now like the Holy Grail of Darwinian evolution education. This is what it has for variables:
The basic components of the Darwinian evolutionary mechanism are variation (V), inheritance (I), natural selection (S) and time (T).
http://avida-ed.msu.edu/ http://avida-ed.msu.edu/curricula/UnderstandIntroGenVar_Handout.pdf I bolded the words that precisely describe what it demonstrates, the "Darwinian evolutionary mechanism". What matters to ID is that the Darwinian model is not to demonstrate "intelligent cause" or even "intelligence" it's limited to "Darwinian evolution" only. The winning strategy is to provide the models required to demonstrate what ID theory is premised to explain. That's why the multiple level model explained by the theory was so vital to the success of ID in science. Only needed this, which is the same url my name links to: http://theoryofid.blogspot.com/ It's good to know how the Darwinian evolution model works. And for the ID movement it's even better to know how the ID model works. So does anyone want to code a simple as possible model to demonstrate intelligence? Which of the three intelligence levels to model up from is all up to you.Gary S. Gaulin
January 26, 2015
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zac said, The k-complexity of a sequence is never much more than the length of the sequence itself. I say, yep that is the point. My guess and it's only a guess is that the required sequence will remain just out of reach. you say, Why would the simulation crash? I say, Did you not read the OP? Huh? I say, Guaranteeing "fixity" while programing "nonfixity" is a problem that will not be solved by a clever computer program. X+F-F=X no matter how you slice it You say, It’s like modeling the weather. You don’t have actual clouds inside your computer. I say, If the weather is algorithmic what I have in my computer can be equivalent in every way to what I see float by on a summer day. That is the point. peacefifthmonarchyman
January 26, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman: 1) We could measure the complexity of the model. I have a guess that it will quickly become apparent that any successful mutating quine will have unbounded k-complexity. The k-complexity of a sequence is never much more than the length of the sequence itself. fifthmonarchyman: 2) I agree that what we really need to do is model the environment that contains the quine in addition to the quines themselves. This multiplies the required complexity exponentially. It multiplies the complexity of the environmental simulation, but not of the replicators, which is the fundamental error made in the original post. fifthmonarchyman: 3) Increased computing power will not provide any relief from the dilemma. All it will do is allow the stimulation to crash at an increased rate. Why would the simulation crash? fifthmonarchyman: 4) A better designed program will not provide relief because the problem is not lack of efficiency. You can’t make 2+2=5 simply by developing a more clever arithmetic. Huh? fifthmonarchyman: 5) I’m amazed that the other side is now claiming that computer programs are a poor analog for evolution. A quine, which is a replicating program, is a poor model because it conflates the model and what is being modeled. A proper simulation will be a process independent of the computational system. There will be a replicator, an environment, and a relationship between the two. It's like modeling the weather. You don't have actual clouds inside your computer. Mapou: Bacteria’s ability to exchange genes is not an evolutionary mechanism for the simple reason that it does not create new genes. Of course it's an evolutionary mechanism.Zachriel
January 26, 2015
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Petrushka got it all wrong:
Does complexity harm the evolutionary hypothesis? Not at all. For one thing, microbes do not have to invent everything by themselves. They exchange genes rather promiscuously. Anything new and useful spreads.
Bacteria's ability to exchange genes is not an evolutionary mechanism for the simple reason that it does not create new genes. It is an adaptive mechanism that presupposes the existence of a huge variety of existing functional genes. The only way for evolution to create new genes is via mutations. However, since bacteria could not survive without the ability to exchange genes, evolution never gets started.
Does it make origin of life a difficult problem? Yes. but we already knew that.
A difficult problem? That's a laugh. It shows that random processes are insufficient to create living, self-replicating, adaptive organisms. The gap between molecules and the complexity of life is impossible for natural forces to breach. The only solution is design. It's simple, really, but have fun drinking your kool-aid. Looking at the rings on your hands does not make you a hell of a man.Mapou
January 26, 2015
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Hey niwrad, This is an excellent and fascinating thread a couple of observations if I may 1) We could measure the complexity of the model. I have a guess that it will quickly become apparent that any successful mutating quine will have unbounded k-complexity. 2) I agree that what we really need to do is model the environment that contains the quine in addition to the quines themselves. This multiplies the required complexity exponentially. 3) Increased computing power will not provide any relief from the dilemma. All it will do is allow the stimulation to crash at an increased rate. 4) A better designed program will not provide relief because the problem is not lack of efficiency. You can't make 2+2=5 simply by developing a more clever arithmetic. 5) I'm amazed that the other side is now claiming that computer programs are a poor analog for evolution. The whole point of Darwin's contribution was to frame biology in an algorithmic light. RM/NS is simply an algorithm. Algorithms are what computers were made for. peacefifthmonarchyman
January 26, 2015
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Very well, show me a textbook that says amoebas evolved into men. It appears that you are confusing modern microbes with common ancestors. This is wrong on two counts. The firs, and least important, is that modern microbes are every bit as evolved as multi-celled organisms. the second, is that evolution is a walk along the network of chemistry that allows survival. It doesn't have a direction toward anything. If the Cambrian were re-run, we would expect to see entirely different outcomes. Populations change, but they do not evolve toward targets or goals. As for Behe's Edge, it is the best reasoned objection to evolution. Behe accepts common descent. His argument is that there are places on the map with no roads connecting towns. this is a testable proposition, but the technology to do the testing is recent.Petrushka
January 26, 2015
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Petrushka #22 "Amoebas have not evolved to men ... if you want to test evolution, take something like Behe’s chloroquine resistance in malaria". You seem to sell a low-profile definition of evolution. But in school for "evolution" they teach children Darwin's macroevolution, not Behe’s chloroquine resistance.niwrad
January 26, 2015
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Amoebas have not evolved to men, and there is no biologist who thinks they could in the remaining lifetime of the earth. That is the kind of thing creationists think evolution means, and that confusion is why folks like Doug Axe can make a living proving it doesn't happen. If you want to test evolution, take something like Behe's chloroquine resistance in malaria, and do the chemistry to see how possible it is. Behe asserted it would take two simultaneous fortuitous mutations, but after the experiments are run, there are at least seven paths involving one mutation at a time. The multiplicity of paths is part of what I mean by robustness. The universality of genomic robustness could not have been tested ten years ago. The manufacture of biological molecules was not possible at a reasonable cost. Now it can be tested, and it turns out that the possibility of silent mutations and multiple pathways is the rule, rather than the exception. So if you are going to model evolution, you need to model actual chemistry, which is much more permissive than computer programming.Petrushka
January 26, 2015
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