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Kirk Durston: A common either-or mistake both Darwinists and ID theorists make

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Biophysicist Kirk Durston of the New Scholars Society offers an explanation below:

Note: Kirk Durston is back and this post has been stuck to the front page until late this evening EST, so that further comments and his responses may be noted. – News

There is a common either-or mistake made by most Darwinists and, quite frequently, by ID theorists as well. The mistake, which is an example of the fallacy known as the false dichotomy, can be described as occurring when one assumes that either no functional information encoded in the genomes of life can be produced by natural processes, or all of it was produced by natural processes. A closely related mistake made by Darwinists is the assumption that if natural processes can produce a trivial level of functional information, then we can safely conclude that natural processes can produce all biological information.

There are still challenges in mathematically defining functional information or functional complexity. For my purpose here, however, I will simply use the mathematical descriptions published by Hazen et al., and Durston et al. Both approaches cited are very closely related to an earlier equation published in 1951 by Leon Brillouin, which can be simply represented as

FI = -log nf/nt

Where nf = number of sequences that are functional and nt = the total number of possible sequences. It should be clear from the above equation that if nf is large enough for examples to be generated by random recombinations, then functional information (FI) can be generated by random natural processes, albeit a trivial level. For example, it is clear from work done at the Georgia Institute of Technology, that nf for simple binding pockets is pretty high, which entails that the FI required to code for binding pockets is relatively trivial.

Reflection on the above equation reveals that the FI required for a given function can range anywhere from zero to some very high number. It is, therefore, a mistake to assume that FI can only be generated by intelligence; a trivial level of FI can be produced by completely mindless processes, as should be obvious from the above equation, and as the Georgia Tech results illustrate.

It is also a mistake to assume, as many Darwinists do, that because mindless processes can generate a trivial level of FI, therefore mindless processes can generate high levels of FI. Again, reflection upon the above equation (or the more detailed equations published by Hazen or Durston) reveal that the higher the FI required, the less probable it becomes (i.e., the nf/nt ratio approaches zero).

The fatal mistake made by Darwinists at this point is to invoke what has become the Darwinist god-of-the-gaps, namely selection. As we can illustrate from evolutionary algorithms, selection requires a fitness function which, itself requires FI to encode. Of course, it follows from what I am arguing here that trivial levels of selection can be produced with trivial levels of FI. The question is whether natural selection has sufficient information to locate stable, functional, biological proteins. All our work to date seems to falsify that option and verify the need and actual role for intelligent design (in this case human) when producing artificial proteins of any significant structure. To clarify, recent building of artificial proteins is an example of intelligent design in action.

The Georgia Tech work has led some Darwinists to believe that because binding pockets are relatively trivial to encode in a sequence that, therefore, we have somehow explained how natural processes could have encoded biological proteins. In real life, however, proteins are about a lot more than simple binding. Binding to the right molecule is important, at the right time, at the right location and with the right binding strength so that the bond can be broken at the right time and place, etc. This can often require a larger 3D structure for proper functionality, that has a nf/nt ratio approaching zero. For example, if we take the results published for 35 protein families by Durston et al., and solve for nf/nt, we observe that it is extremely small for many protein families.

My contention is that the ability to generate statistically significant levels of functional information is unique to intelligence. It follows from this that if a function can be achieved with a statistically insignificant level of FI, then intelligence is not required. Statistical significance, therefore, is the safeguard against false positives and can be measured in a variety of ways, such as measuring the adjusted residual of the outcome and choosing a cutoff that represents a very high confidence level, such as 99.9% or greater. With this in mind, an executive summary of my own case for intelligent design in biological life is available here.

Comments
'I know what evolutionism says, Jerad. I also know that it isn’t a theory. That is because it can’t muster testable hypotheses along with predictions.' - Joe Yeah, but there could be a multiverse in which it can, Joe! Darwinism, multiverses.... You know what? I think the desperation they indicate, must be a function of a desperation verging on outright despair, on the part of atheists, for an emotional crutch. Only an overpowering emotional craving could deprive them of their wits in such an overt, obdurate and scary fashion.Axel
July 27, 2013
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Well, Gregory, when it comes down to it, while I hardly understand a word of the technical guff you wrote in #89, re ID, I'm a great believer in the dictum of Watergate's wily, old, hick, country lawyer, Sam Irving; viz if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, waddles like a duck ... well supposing instead of that handful of characteristics, we consider in the same light, the punctilious coincidence of 140 odd physical calibrations, required for the existence of our universe, would that not suggest design yet more powerfully yet, even very much more powerfully, than observable features of the behaviour of a duck? Is inference a sly evasion or trick in such a context? Requiring a mind-boggling conceptual leap? I don't think so. I don't know about you, Gregory, but I reckon a lot of your anti-ID confreres must need their mothers to do up their shoe-laces in the morning.Axel
July 27, 2013
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That’s not the issue. ToE proposes a method of reiterated variation and selection that can result in phenotypic change over time. I don’t ask you to believe it, just try not to misrepresent it.
Actually, I buy that as the underlying theory that a very large number who are pro naturalistic evolution actually believe. It seems to be what several are defending here. My problem with this theory which can be demonstrated to actually work in the real world is that the only phenotypic changes that can be pointed to are trivial. It does not lead to anything of consequence in the evolution discussion. So I believe this is an accurate description, but an irrelevant one to the total discussion. Is there anyone who is pro naturalistic evolution who disagrees with this assessment or wants to amend this statement in any way? Because if there isn't then we can save a lot of pixels and focus on the theory under contention. The interesting thing is that after 8 years of this blog, there is a discussion about such a simple matter.jerry
July 27, 2013
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So Mr. Fox, you are basically saying that even if we grant you the ‘assumption’ of protein making machines that are made out of, you guessed it, proteins, you still do not have any evidence that Darwinian processes can make, you guessed it again, proteins??? And the point of avoiding the OOL issue was what exactly? Top Ten Most Cited Chemist in the World Will Buy You Lunch If You Can Explain To Him How Evolution Works – James Tour, Phd. – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCyAOCesHv0bornagain77
July 27, 2013
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Alan Fox is lying as there isn't any ToE. He cannot link to it and he cannot reference it. Not only that Alan is still ignorant wrt the meaning of "default". And finally only the willfully ignorant cannot grasp that how life originated directly impacts how it evolved.Joe
July 27, 2013
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Mr Fox
Yes, Mr Cunningham?
Even giving atheists the ‘assumption’ of protein making machines that are made out of, you guessed it, proteins, do you have any evidence that Darwinian processes can make, you guessed it again, proteins???
That's not the issue. ToE proposes a method of reiterated variation and selection that can result in phenotypic change over time. I don't ask you to believe it, just try not to misrepresent it.Alan Fox
July 27, 2013
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Mr. Fox, as to "with the assumption of an existing population of self-sustaining self-replicators" Even giving atheists the 'assumption' of protein making machines that are made out of, you guessed it, proteins, do you have any evidence that Darwinian processes can make, you guessed it again, proteins??? Notes: In fact the Ribosome, which makes the myriad of different, yet specific, types of proteins found in life, is found to be severely intolerant to any random mutations occurring to proteins. The Ribosome: Perfectionist Protein-maker Trashes Errors Excerpt: The enzyme machine that translates a cell's DNA code into the proteins of life is nothing if not an editorial perfectionist...the ribosome exerts far tighter quality control than anyone ever suspected over its precious protein products... To their further surprise, the ribosome lets go of error-laden proteins 10,000 times faster than it would normally release error-free proteins, a rate of destruction that Green says is "shocking" and reveals just how much of a stickler the ribosome is about high-fidelity protein synthesis. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/01/090107134529.htm And exactly how is the evolution new life forms suppose to 'randomly' occur if it is prevented from 'randomly' occurring to the proteins in the first place? As well, the 'protein factory' of the ribosome, which is the only known machine in the universe capable of making proteins of any significant length, is far more complicated than first thought: Honors to Researchers Who Probed Atomic Structure of Ribosomes - Robert F. Service Excerpt: "The ribosome’s dance, however, is more like a grand ballet, with dozens of ribosomal proteins and subunits pirouetting with every step while other key biomolecules leap in, carrying other dancers needed to complete the act.” http://creationsafaris.com/crev200910.htm#20091010a As well, The Ribosome of the cell is found to be very similar to a CPU in a electronic computer: Dichotomy in the definition of prescriptive information suggests both prescribed data and prescribed algorithms: biosemiotics applications in genomic systems - 2012 David J D’Onofrio1*, David L Abel2* and Donald E Johnson3 Excerpt: The DNA polynucleotide molecule consists of a linear sequence of nucleotides, each representing a biological placeholder of adenine (A), cytosine (C), thymine (T) and guanine (G). This quaternary system is analogous to the base two binary scheme native to computational systems. As such, the polynucleotide sequence represents the lowest level of coded information expressed as a form of machine code. Since machine code (and/or micro code) is the lowest form of compiled computer programs, it represents the most primitive level of programming language.,,, An operational analysis of the ribosome has revealed that this molecular machine with all of its parts follows an order of operations to produce a protein product. This order of operations has been detailed in a step-by-step process that has been observed to be self-executable. The ribosome operation has been proposed to be algorithmic (Ralgorithm) because it has been shown to contain a step-by-step process flow allowing for decision control, iterative branching and halting capability. The R-algorithm contains logical structures of linear sequencing, branch and conditional control. All of these features at a minimum meet the definition of an algorithm and when combined with the data from the mRNA, satisfy the rule that Algorithm = data + control. Remembering that mere constraints cannot serve as bona fide formal controls, we therefore conclude that the ribosome is a physical instantiation of an algorithm.,,, The correlation between linguistic properties examined and implemented using Automata theory give us a formalistic tool to study the language and grammar of biological systems in a similar manner to how we study computational cybernetic systems. These examples define a dichotomy in the definition of Prescriptive Information. We therefore suggest that the term Prescriptive Information (PI) be subdivided into two categories: 1) Prescriptive data and 2) Prescribed (executing) algorithm. It is interesting to note that the CPU of an electronic computer is an instance of a prescriptive algorithm instantiated into an electronic circuit, whereas the software under execution is read and processed by the CPU to prescribe the program’s desired output. Both hardware and software are prescriptive. http://www.tbiomed.com/content/pdf/1742-4682-9-8.pdf LIFE: WHAT A CONCEPT! Excerpt: The ribosome,,,, it's the most complicated thing that is present in all organisms.,,, you find that almost the only thing that's in common across all organisms is the ribosome.,,, So the question is, how did that thing come to be? And if I were to be an intelligent design defender, that's what I would focus on; how did the ribosome come to be? George Church http://www.edge.org/documents/life/church_index.html Of note, although the ribosome is present in all life, it is not uniform across all life: Ribosome Excerpt: Ribosomes from bacteria, archaea and eukaryotes (the three domains of life on Earth) differ in their size, sequence, structure, and the ratio of protein to RNA. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribosome But even spotting all that to the atheist, does the atheist have any evidence for proteins can evolve? No! Doug Axe PhD. on the Rarity and 'non-Evolvability' of Functional Proteins - video (notes in video description) http://www.metacafe.com/watch/9243592/bornagain77
July 27, 2013
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for instance
You claim that one cannot invoke darwinian evolution to explain the existence of biological systems capable of darwinian evolution. You seem to think this claim is imminently logical. Yet the facts clearly contradict your claim.
You seem to be vying with JoeG for culture-warrior-par-excellence. I think you are in with a good chance if you keep up with comments like these. Think about this for a moment, if you can. The ToE is usually summarized and starts with the assumption of an existing population of self-sustaining self-replicators. Nobody yet has an evidence-based theory for the origin of life on Earth (mainly due to a dearth of evidence, not a dearth of theories). Sure evolutionary processes (trial-and-error)is a very effective approach in many fields. What point are you trying to make? Are you trying to obscure the lack of a theory of ID (evidence-based or not)? I don't see Dr. Durston making much progress here, either. Same old default to design inference with no idea what a design inference entails.Alan Fox
July 27, 2013
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Axel wrote: "I did think disqualifying human beings as designers was a bit rich." Dembski calls human beings 'mundane designers' to distinguish them/us from 'transcendent designers' (2004). So, it's not like he 'disqualifies' them/us, but that he underplays the significance of actually studying 'human designers,' which indeed would undermine the paradoxically both vast and narrow claims of 'Intelligent Design Theory' qua 'theory.' Such a situation explains the peculiar unanthropic bias/composition of DI-CSC fellows. This is why the Big-ID vs. small-id distinction is so important and also why several theists who reject IDism have pointed it out...and been ignored or scorned by IDists. Durston violates the distinction - opting to try to have his cake and eat it too. That is, does not allow the distinction to be expressed or hasn't yet addressed it, just like some other IDists who would try to universalise the single concept 'design' into a kind of 'designism'. That is his bias, which his linked 'Executive Summary' on www.powertochange.com displays quite clearly. That's what I call a bait-and-switch, and it is rampant in the IDM, including here at UD. It also explains why IDist leaders of the IDM at the Discovery Institute, though Durston is not a DI Fellow, have not taken much time to study 'design theory' as it is elaborated in fields outside of biology, cosmology, geology, informatics and engineering. Even the coiner of 'Intelligent Design' Charles Thaxton's 'borrowing' (perhaps call it faulty concept transfer) of the term 'intelligent design' from engineering betrays a lack of explicit explanation of how 'mundane designers' and 'transcendent Designer(s)' differ or are similar and on what grounds he compares them. And then there's Meyer's notion of 'historical sciences' ("Causes now in operation," - Lyell, i.e. "causes that are known to produce the effect in question" - Meyer) as simple 'reverse engineering/reasoning' that falls flat when it is understood that no human being in history has 'experience' of creating or designing the universe we humans live in. OoL is not a topic/field/theme that Meyer's 'historical science' approach can reasonably apply too; though invoking mystical origins/Origins is certainly possible (if not 'scientific'). Is 'Origins of Life' a 'historical (or forensic) science'? No, of course not. No one we know (other than perhaps [a] transcendent Designer[s]) was there/then. Durston's 'Executive Summary' is simply another example of an IDist, promoting his/her blatantly scientistic approach to IDT, on an evangelical Christian website, as if the scientific community should pay attention and 'revolutionise' itself to become something that natural science is not. Unfortunately for Durston, too many people have already seen through the IDM's smokescreens and self-contortions, to its 'little-Big-tent' watering-down and catering to YEC funding channels. The life of the movement qua movement, outside of creationist/evangelical Protestants in the USA (and a few Canadians, like Durston, Bruce Gordon [NYC], Denyse, etc., is already gradually fading away due to honest, open and also faithful scientists and scholars rejecting IDism as a pipe-dream of questionable political PR credibility, the BioLogic Institute (and the collapse of ISCID.org, failure at Dover, cdesignproponentsists, Dembski's 'Waterloo' at Baylor, etc.) included. But there are those who think martyrdom is an IDist virtue worth displaying on forums like UD, ASA, etc., so it would be hard if not impossible to change such persons' hearts to ever accept this 'interpretation' of facts and evidences. The bottom-line is that responsible and devout Muslims, Christians, Jews and Baha'is should openly and directly reject 'Intelligent Design Theory' qua 'theory' as 1) unecessarily scientistic ideology, 2) unfaithful to the traditional Abrahamic religions that claim no 'scientific' proof (they soften/weaken, try to sweeten it to be simply an 'inference,' but we've seen their leaders' hearts when speaking/writing about Big-ID in religious environments) of the Creator's existence was/is/ever will be possible, and 3) an approach based on an amazingly and suprisingly (for America, which is supposed to be so 'scientifically advanced'!) weak philosophy of science (most IDists don't look beyond Thomas Kuhn), which depends far too much and inexcusibly on statisticism and probabilism (don't just quote dictionaries, think forward, bigger and better than IDism!) that are ideologies the IDM will try to fight against though they are appropriate labels of its 'attitude' towards knowledge until it soon becomes extinct in the history of ideas. But hey, Durston's 'scientific case' (regurgitated from others) might end up being a good advertising strategy for those who already believe in the 'power to change' via a transcendent Designer, who think as he does that de-capitalising 'intelligent design' will deceive or trick the majority of religious folks to trust the Discovery Institute and their political 'Wedge' mission of desperately attacking the ghost of 'Darwinism' past. Those people, already religious believers in mainly Protestant (with a trickle of Catholic) funding channels, is clearly what the IDM has 'banked' on so far. Please return back to your "nf/nt ratio approaching zero" now and ignore this message. Probably.Gregory
July 27, 2013
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Mung:
Darwinian evolution is invoked in all sorts of situations that have nothing to do with biological organisms.
Mung:
Are genetic algorithms capable of Darwinian evolution?
Elizabeth Liddle:
Yes.
'nuff said Care to claim that I misrepresented what you wrote Dr. Liddle? I don't think I did. So do you grant my point?Mung
July 26, 2013
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Jerad:
I think it’s easier to buy into the ID hypothesis than to wrap your head around evolutionary theory.
What theory?
Lots and lots of mistakes are made and those attempts are not fit, they don’t survive long enough to reproduce.
Numerous turtles hatch and head for the sea. A bird swoops in and snatches one and makes a meal of it. It fails to survive and reproduce. It's "less fit" than it's brothers and sisters, by definition. What qualifies that as a theory? How is it testable? What makes such a theory scientific?Mung
July 26, 2013
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Jerad:
Nature is very good at trial and error. I’ve read that something like a third of all human conceptions end in spontaneous abortions. Many before the woman is even aware that she’s pregnant.
What makes you think this is a "trial and error" process?Mung
July 26, 2013
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Hi Elizabeth, Sorry I missed you during the period when I was active at your blog. We would have had so much to discuss. I'll admit that I find it challenging to take you seriously, but if you'll try hard I'll try hard. You claim that one cannot invoke darwinian evolution to explain the existence of biological systems capable of darwinian evolution. You seem to think this claim is imminently logical. Yet the facts clearly contradict your claim. Darwinian evolution is invoked in all sorts of situations that have nothing to do with biological organisms. And there's no logical reason that one "Darwinian process" cannot give rise to some other "Darwinian process." Do you disagree?Mung
July 26, 2013
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Jerad:
If you don’t know what it says then how do you know you disagree with it?
I know what evolutionism says, Jerad. I also know that it isn't a theory. That is because it can't muster testable hypotheses along with predictions.Joe
July 26, 2013
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Mung, in case you missed it-> If you want a book on macrevolution then all you do is get a bunch of nooks on microevolution and put them together. After all macroevolution is just microevolution, microevolution and more microevolution. ;)Joe
July 26, 2013
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Jerad:
I think it’s easier to buy into the ID hypothesis than to wrap your head around evolutionary theory.
Yes it is easier to buy into reality than wrap your head around something that doesn't exist. Nice call.Joe
July 26, 2013
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Jerad:
IF you all really are interested in the best case for evolutionary theory then you won’t find it here, or in Dr Dawkins books, or at any one website. You’ll find it in the accumulated knowledge generated by 150 of work done by biologists probing and testing and expanding on the basic framework.
One college textbook on Macro-evolutionary theory Jerad, just one. I'll buy it and read it. But as yet I can't find it. Maybe there's no money to be made in publishing textbooks on macro-evolutionary theory. yeah, that's must be it. I bet you had math textbooks in uni, right? Why should macro-evolutionary theory be exempted?Mung
July 26, 2013
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Jerad:
The fossil record, the DNA evidence, bio-geographic distributions, morphology.
And how is any of that evidence for natural selection?
Cumulative selection is just one round of environmental culling on top of another, on top of another, etc.
Look Jerad, Dawkins modeled cumulative selection with his weasel program. It ain't darwinian.
You know, I’m sure you’ve heard all the explanations before and so your asking for another round of clarification is just time wasting really. No matter what I say you’re going to claim that my evidence isn’t adequate. BUT you won’t have any good, positive counter evidence and you’ll assert that finding gaps in our current knowledge is enough to call the whole of evolutionary theory into question.
You can't even muster testable hypotheses complete with predictions wrt unguided evolution. And Lenski's long-running experiment exposes your position's claims as total bogus. So perhaps you should pull your head out, take a look around and see what reality really says.Joe
July 26, 2013
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Is the minimal system capable of Darwinian evolution capable of recognizing sarcasm?Mung
July 26, 2013
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Jerad:
When can we get past the endless repetition of restating what evolutionary theory does and doesn’t say?
I'll tell you when. When you and other advocates in favor of Darwinian evolutionary theory can present to us a testable theory for the simplest system capable of Darwinian evolution. If you don't even know what is required for Darwinian evolution, and have no theory capable of being tested in support of the claim of what is required, you have nothing scientific to present to us.Mung
July 26, 2013
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Mung
The logic is impeccable.
It is indeed, Mung. Re-read it carefully if you are not truly convinced.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 26, 2013
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Jerad:
I think there are ID proponents who really are interested in having a dialogue and considering the actual evidence.
This is truly rich coming from you Jerad. Invitations were repeatedly extended to you, yet you declines each one. Go figure.Mung
July 26, 2013
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Jerad:
Cumulative selection is just one round of environmental culling on top of another, on top of another, etc.
Culling is the exact opposite of accumulating.Mung
July 26, 2013
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I didn’t realise that you denied Darwinian evolution completely.
Shame on you gpuccio. Stuff just happens, that's all, is recognized by all to be an indisputable truth and a more than adequate explanation in the hallowed halls of science.Mung
July 26, 2013
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You want to cast doubt on the whole thing just because you can’t conceive of how some steps occurred. Asking questions is fine but being a merchant of doubt eventually becomes a idealistic stance.
You have resorted to an ad hominen attack. That is the first sign that one does not have anything to back up their position.
IF you really are interested in all this stuff then I suggest you read current research papers and not just books written for the general public.
I suggest you cite a few and we can evaluate them. Also what do the tobacco companies or global warming or CFC's or plate tectonics have to do with evolution? Keep to the topic at hand, in this case information in the gene pool. If you can expose us as ignorant, go for it. Millions will be ecstatic if you could do that.jerry
July 26, 2013
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Elizabeth Liddle:
They must require completely different solutions, because you can’t invoke Darwinian processes to account for the first Darwinian-capable self-replicator! Whereas you can invoke Darwinian processes to account for things that evolved as a result of there being Darwinian-capable self-replicators.
The logic is impeccable. Why, Elizabeth, can't one invoke Darwinian processes to account for the first Darwinian-capable self-replicator? Perhaps there is a "pre-life" Darwinian process and a "post-life" Darwinian process. What makes a replicator "Darwinian-capable," whatever that means? Well, you really can't say, can you, since you don't even know what the simplest system capable of Darwinian evolution must consist of. In fact, you don't even have a theory about what such a system must consist of. And you really don't know WHEN you can invoke "Darwinism" as an explanation, as you just admitted as outlined in my post @71. Hand-waving is not, and never has been, science.Mung
July 26, 2013
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Elizabeth Liddle:
But we do not know this – it’s the subject matter of OoL research. We do not know how simple a self-replicator has to be to be Darwinian-capable.
Darwinism. A system of belief in search of a theoretical underpinning. So here we have it, in plan text, for all to see, that Elizabeth admits she was just pontificating with no real theory or evidence to support her assertion. Par for the course.Mung
July 26, 2013
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Dr Liddle, Do differences in material processes matter, and do you think it is important to acknowledge those differences? What exactly is your standard of discipline with regard to identifying individual material processes and assigning the capacities of one process to the observation of an unrelated process? And if, for some reason, you should suggest that one process can lead to a target outcome, and then find that the proposed processes cannot (in fact) result in that target, is it your position that you should cease from making that proposition in the future, or will you continue to do so?Upright BiPed
July 26, 2013
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Jerad, I couldn't help to notice in all your romantic reflection about your Darwinian worldview, and all the lines of evidence you alluded to supporting it for the past 150 years, that you forgot to actually cite an actual example of Darwinian processes creating anything. I know in love affairs, such as you have for Darwin, it is hard to see faults in the one you love, but, as a friend, let me let you in on a few defects that you have overlooked:
Scant search for the Maker Excerpt: But where is the experimental evidence? None exists in the literature claiming that one species has been shown to evolve into another. Bacteria, the simplest form of independent life, are ideal for this kind of study, with generation times of 20 to 30 minutes, and populations achieved after 18 hours. But throughout 150 years of the science of bacteriology, there is no evidence that one species of bacteria has changed into another, in spite of the fact that populations have been exposed to potent chemical and physical mutagens and that, uniquely, bacteria possess extrachromosomal, transmissible plasmids. Since there is no evidence for species changes between the simplest forms of unicellular life, it is not surprising that there is no evidence for evolution from prokaryotic to eukaryotic cells, let alone throughout the whole array of higher multicellular organisms. - Alan H. Linton - emeritus professor of bacteriology, University of Bristol. http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?storycode=159282
And in spite of the fact of finding molecular motors, and highly sophisticated control systems, permeating the simplest of bacterial life (Alberts, Venter), there are no detailed Darwinian accounts for the evolution of even one such motor or system.
"There are no detailed Darwinian accounts for the evolution of any fundamental biochemical or cellular system only a variety of wishful speculations. It is remarkable that Darwinism is accepted as a satisfactory explanation of such a vast subject." James Shapiro - Molecular Biologist
The following expert doesn't even hide his very unscientific preconceived philosophical bias against intelligent design,,,
‘We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity,,,
Yet at the same time the same expert readily admits that neo-Darwinism has ZERO evidence for Darwinian processes producing any cellular system whatsoever,,,
,,,we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical or cellular system, only a variety of wishful speculations.’ Franklin M. Harold,* 2001. The way of the cell: molecules, organisms and the order of life, Oxford University Press, New York, p. 205. *Professor Emeritus of Biochemistry, Colorado State University, USA
Though Michael Behe has been pointing this failing in Darwinism out for decades, the only refutation offered by Darwinists has been a very deceptive literature bluffing:
Michael Behe - No Scientific Literature For Evolution of Any Irreducibly Complex Molecular Machines http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5302950/ “The response I have received from repeating Behe's claim about the evolutionary literature, which simply brings out the point being made implicitly by many others, such as Chris Dutton and so on, is that I obviously have not read the right books. There are, I am sure, evolutionists who have described how the transitions in question could have occurred.” And he continues, “When I ask in which books I can find these discussions, however, I either get no answer or else some titles that, upon examination, do not, in fact, contain the promised accounts. That such accounts exist seems to be something that is widely known, but I have yet to encounter anyone who knows where they exist.” David Ray Griffin - retired professor of philosophy of religion and theology Calling Nick Matzke's literature bluff on molecular machines - DonaldM UD blogger - April 2013 Excerpt: So now, 10 years later in 2006 Matzke and Pallen come along with this review article. The interesting thing about this article is that, despite all the hand waving claims about all these dozens if not hundreds of peer reviewed research studies showing how evolution built a flagellum, Matzke and Pallen didn’t have a single such reference in their bibliography. Nor did they reference any such study in the article. Rather, the article went into great lengths to explain how a researcher might go about conducting a study to show how evolution could have produced the system. Well, if all those articles and studies were already there, why not just point them all out? In shorty, the entire article was a tacit admission that Behe had been right all along. Fast forward to now and Andre’s question directed to Matzke. We’re now some 17 years after Behe’s book came out where he made that famous claim. And, no surprise, there still is not a single peer reviewed research study that provides the Darwinian explanation for a bacterial flagellum (or any of the other irreducibly complex biological systems Behe mentioned in the book). We’re almost 7 years after the Matzke & Pallen article. So where are all these research studies? There’s been ample time for someone to do something in this regard. Matzke will not answer the question because there is no answer he can give…no peer reviewed research study he can reference, other than the usual literature bluffing he’s done in the past. https://uncommondescent.com/irreducible-complexity/andre-asks-an-excellent-question-regarding-dna-as-a-part-of-an-in-cell-irreducibly-complex-communication-system/#comment-453291
Morever, despite the fact that Darwinists have ZERO empirical evidence of Darwinian processes EVER producing any molecular machine, here is an example that intelligence can accomplish as such:
(Man-Made) DNA nanorobot – video https://vimeo.com/36880067
The same situation is found with proteins. i.e. Even though no one has ever observed Darwinian processes creating a single functional protein from scratch, intelligence has demonstrated the capacity to create as such:
Viral-Binding Protein Design Makes the Case for Intelligent Design Sick! (as in cool) - Fazale Rana - June 2011 Excerpt: When considering this study, it is remarkable to note how much effort it took to design a protein that binds to a specific location on the hemagglutinin molecule. As biochemists Bryan Der and Brian Kuhlman point out while commenting on this work, the design of these proteins required: "...cutting-edge software developed by ~20 groups worldwide and 100,000 hours of highly parallel computing time. It also involved using a technique known as yeast display to screen candidate proteins and select those with high binding affinities, as well as x-ray crystallography to validate designs.2" If it takes this much work and intellectual input to create a single protein from scratch, is it really reasonable to think that undirected evolutionary processes could accomplish this task routinely? In other words, the researchers from the University of Washington and The Scripps Institute have unwittingly provided empirical evidence that the high-precision interactions required for PPIs requires intelligent agency to arise. http://www.reasons.org/viral-binding-protein-design-makes-case-intelligent-design-sick-cool Computer-designed proteins programmed to disarm variety of flu viruses - June 1, 2012 Excerpt: The research efforts, akin to docking a space station but on a molecular level, are made possible by computers that can describe the landscapes of forces involved on the submicroscopic scale.,, These maps were used to reprogram the design to achieve a more precise interaction between the inhibitor protein and the virus molecule. It also enabled the scientists, they said, "to leapfrog over bottlenecks" to improve the activity of the binder. http://phys.org/news/2012-06-computer-designed-proteins-variety-flu-viruses.html
So Jerad, seeing such stark disparity in empirical evidence compared with your unyielding infatuation for Darwin, I can only ask once again, ‘Are you sure you’ve really understood evolutionary theory?’bornagain77
July 26, 2013
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You are presenting the “overwhelming evidence” argument and we have seen that before but science does not work that way. A lot of what you present does not indicate any specific mechanism for evolution. So I suggest that you present the best case for how major changes happened. One of the necessities for major changes is the origin of new proteins which is what this OP is about. New proteins are not the only thing necessary but it is one of them. What determines where these proteins go and in what sequence is unknown as of this moment so is another major issue. New proteins however, present a very thorny problem.
Nature is very good at trial and error. I've read that something like a third of all human conceptions end in spontaneous abortions. Many before the woman is even aware that she's pregnant. Lots and lots of mistakes are made and those attempts are not fit, they don't survive long enough to reproduce. We are the lucky ones. Our mix of genes was good enough. IF you really are interested in all this stuff then I suggest you read current research papers and not just books written for the general public. I enjoy Dr Dawkins' books but they are not where the action is. That's in the research and journals being published every day. Little bits and pieces adding to the overall picture which hasn't substantially changed since 1859. The gaps are decreasing as more and more of the process becomes clear. It's a very cool time to be alive, to see the 'secrets' revealed. You want to cast doubt on the whole thing just because you can't conceive of how some steps occurred. Asking questions is fine but being a merchant of doubt eventually becomes a idealistic stance. Just like the tobacco companies that tred to drag out the doubt that smoking is bad for you. Or the people that said the evidence wasn't clear that CFCs were harming the ozone layer. Or the current crop of climate change doubters. Sixty or seventy years ago many people couldn't accept that the continents move.. Even now parts of the mechanism are not fully understood. But the continents do move and few intelligent people would deny it. I think it's easier to buy into the ID hypothesis than to wrap your head around evolutionary theory. I think most of us aren't wired to accept the fact that a combination of random mutations and eons of cumulative selection resulted in us. Who would want to think that? But that's what the evidence points to. And the data is growing. I didn't naturally come to believe in evolutionary theory; I had to be convinced. And I ran out of other explanations that encompassed all the data and had less special pleading.Jerad
July 26, 2013
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