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The “confused and illusory world” of the Christian Darwinist: What does it mean to say that nature has “freedom”?

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Apologies, Reb.)

In “The Language of Science and Faith,” Giberson (soon to be in an online dialogue with Bill Dembski) and Collins argue that God has given nature “freedom”: This is their proposed solution to the problem of evil in nature:

When God, as a loving Creator, withdraws from complete sovereign control over his creatures and grants them freedom, this means – in ways often difficult to understand – that those creatures can now act independently of God. They are free to not be robotic automatons, puppets or trained attack dogs. In the case of the Holocaust – the classic example of human evil – we always do exactly what Dembski says we never do: we shift the responsibility for that evil from God to the Nazis. Such reflections have long characterized Christian thinking about the problem of evi. All we need to do now is enlarge this general concept to include the sorts of things that nature is doing on its own.Not all Christians are comfortable with the idea that nature has freedom, of course. …

Actually, not all Christians can even make rational sense of the these assertions. “Nature” is simply everything that exists in this universe, and to say that everything that exists has “freedom,” is to say what, exactly? Surely not that the puppets and attack dogs have freedom. It turns out that this is an argument about how “evolution can be a friend to faith,” because

Those instincts that drive cats to torture mice can emerge naturally and freely from the evolutionary process. They need not originate in the mind of God. (P. 139)

But, excuse me, the instincts obviously do originate in the mind of God, unless the argument here is that God had no idea what he was doing.

How would a landlord fare in court if the Crown charged that he had created a fire hazard, and he responded that the dangerous conditions were simply those that “can emerge naturally and freely from the weathering process”?

In defter hands than those of Giberson and Collins, such arguments are always used to undermine both God’s existence and human freedom. After all, if what Giberson and Collins claim is true, there is – for all practical purposes – no God, and human freedom is an illusion created by the buzz of neurons. Which is what most evolutionary biologists believe.
– – Karl W. Giberson and Francis S. Collins, The Language of Science and Faith: Straight Answers to Genuine Questions (InterVarsity Press, 2011), p. 138, 139.

Comments
The moment someone calls himself Christian you naturally assume that they believe in the revelation God has provided in the Bible. The last time I looked there is an explanation for evil in the Bible. It is called the Fall. Here's an exercise for you. What is the absolute first passage of Scripture to attribute the origin of evil (as in, it offers up the fall as an explanation for evil) to the fall? I mean, was the snake in the garden evil? Was satan evil prior to the fall?
Mung
April 21, 2011
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rewrite; ,,, Thus Collins and Giberson can talk about ‘nature having freedom’ all they want, but the fact of the matter is that ‘nature’ is mysteriously constrained to each of billions, if not trillions, of unique points of observation! A ‘fact of nature’ that only finds successful resolution as to its ’cause’ in the infinite mind of God;bornagain77
April 21, 2011
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Those instincts that drive cats to torture mice can emerge naturally and freely from the evolutionary process. They need not originate in the mind of God.
Likewise waterboarding I suppose. Amazing how wide the net of what constitutes torture these days.Mung
April 21, 2011
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When God, as a loving Creator, withdraws from complete sovereign control over his creatures and grants them freedom, this means – in ways often difficult to understand – that those creatures can now act independently of God.
What's the difference between "complete sovereign control" and incomplete sovereign control? As usual, they want to have their cake and eat it too. Trying to retain the doctrine of the sovereignty of God while denying actual sovereignty to Him. Are we really acting independently of God, or is He still in control? Bring to mind a lawgiver who makes laws then does nothing to enforce them. These subjects require deep thought and ought to be addressed before Darwinism even enters the picture. It's like, ooh, Darwinism, now we have to rethink our entire theology. Um, well, no. We don't.Mung
April 21, 2011
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I take exception to this statement; 'nature has freedom' The world is in fact far more 'constrained' than Collins or Giberson realize; Quantum wave collapse is 'centered' on each unique observer in the universe,,, to prove so; ,,, First I noticed that the earth demonstrates centrality in the universe in this video Dr. Dembski posted a while back; The Known Universe - Dec. 2009 - a very cool video (please note the centrality of the earth in the universe) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17jymDn0W6U ,,, for a while I tried to see if the 4-D space-time of General Relativity was sufficient to explain centrality we witness for the earth in the universe,,, 4-Dimensional Space-Time Of General Relativity - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3991873/ ,,, yet I kept running into the same problem for establishing the sufficiency of General Relativity to explain our centrality in this universe, in that every time I would perform a 'mental experiment' of trying radically different points of observation in the universe, General Relativity would fail to maintain centrality for the radically different point of observation in the universe. The primary reason for this failure of General Relativity to maintain centrality, for different points of observation in the universe, is due to the fact that there are limited (10^80) material particles to work with. Though this failure of General Relativity was obvious to me, I needed more proof so as to establish it more rigorously, so i dug around a bit and found this; The Cauchy Problem In General Relativity - Igor Rodnianski Excerpt: 2.2 Large Data Problem In General Relativity - While the result of Choquet-Bruhat and its subsequent refinements guarantee the existence and uniqueness of a (maximal) Cauchy development, they provide no information about its geodesic completeness and thus, in the language of partial differential equations, constitutes a local existence. ,,, More generally, there are a number of conditions that will guarantee the space-time will be geodesically incomplete.,,, In the language of partial differential equations this means an impossibility of a large data global existence result for all initial data in General Relativity. http://www.icm2006.org/proceedings/Vol_III/contents/ICM_Vol_3_22.pdf and also 'serendipitously' found this,,, THE GOD OF THE MATHEMATICIANS - DAVID P. GOLDMAN - August 2010 Excerpt: Gödel's personal God is under no obligation to behave in a predictable orderly fashion, and Gödel produced what may be the most damaging critique of general relativity. In a Festschrift, (a book honoring Einstein), for Einstein's seventieth birthday in 1949, Gödel demonstrated the possibility of a special case in which, as Palle Yourgrau described the result, "the large-scale geometry of the world is so warped that there exist space-time curves that bend back on themselves so far that they close; that is, they return to their starting point." This means that "a highly accelerated spaceship journey along such a closed path, or world line, could only be described as time travel." In fact, "Gödel worked out the length and time for the journey, as well as the exact speed and fuel requirements." Gödel, of course, did not actually believe in time travel, but he understood his paper to undermine the Einsteinian worldview from within. http://www.faqs.org/periodicals/201008/2080027241.html But if General Relativity is insufficient to explain the centrality we witness for ourselves in the universe, what else is? Universal Quantum wave collapse to each unique point of observation! To prove this point I dug around a bit and found this experiment,,, This following experiment extended the double slit experiment to show that the 'spooky actions', for instantaneous quantum wave collapse, happen regardless of any considerations for time or distance i.e. The following experiment shows that quantum actions are 'universal and instantaneous': Wheeler's Classic Delayed Choice Experiment: Excerpt: Now, for many billions of years the photon is in transit in region 3. Yet we can choose (many billions of years later) which experimental set up to employ – the single wide-focus, or the two narrowly focused instruments. We have chosen whether to know which side of the galaxy the photon passed by (by choosing whether to use the two-telescope set up or not, which are the instruments that would give us the information about which side of the galaxy the photon passed). We have delayed this choice until a time long after the particles "have passed by one side of the galaxy, or the other side of the galaxy, or both sides of the galaxy," so to speak. Yet, it seems paradoxically that our later choice of whether to obtain this information determines which side of the galaxy the light passed, so to speak, billions of years ago. So it seems that time has nothing to do with effects of quantum mechanics. And, indeed, the original thought experiment was not based on any analysis of how particles evolve and behave over time – it was based on the mathematics. This is what the mathematics predicted for a result, and this is exactly the result obtained in the laboratory. http://www.bottomlayer.com/bottom/basic_delayed_choice.htm ,, and to make universal quantum Wave collapse much more 'personal' I found this,,, "It was not possible to formulate the laws (of quantum theory) in a fully consistent way without reference to consciousness." Eugene Wigner (1902 -1995) from his collection of essays "Symmetries and Reflections – Scientific Essays"; Eugene Wigner laid the foundation for the theory of symmetries in quantum mechanics, for which he received the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1963. http://eugene-wigner.co.tv/ Here is the key experiment that led Wigner to his Nobel Prize winning work on quantum symmetries: Eugene Wigner Excerpt: To express this basic experience in a more direct way: the world does not have a privileged center, there is no absolute rest, preferred direction, unique origin of calendar time, even left and right seem to be rather symmetric. The interference of electrons, photons, neutrons has indicated that the state of a particle can be described by a vector possessing a certain number of components. As the observer is replaced by another observer (working elsewhere, looking at a different direction, using another clock, perhaps being left-handed), the state of the very same particle is described by another vector, obtained from the previous vector by multiplying it with a matrix. This matrix transfers from one observer to another. http://www.reak.bme.hu/Wigner_Course/WignerBio/wb1.htm i.e. In the experiment the 'world' (i.e. the universe) does not have a ‘privileged center’. Yet strangely, the conscious observer does exhibit a 'privileged center'. This is since the 'matrix', which determines which vector will be used to describe the particle in the experiment, is 'observer-centric' in its origination! Thus explaining Wigner’s dramatic statement, “It was not possible to formulate the laws (of quantum theory) in a fully consistent way without reference to consciousness.” ,,, Thus Collins and Giberson can talk about 'nature having freedom' all they want, but the fact of the matter is that 'nature' is severely constrained to each of billions, if not trillions, of unique points of observation! A 'fact of nature' that only finds successful resolution as to its 'cause' in the infinite mind of God; Psalm 33:13-15 The LORD looks from heaven; He sees all the sons of men. From the place of His dwelling He looks on all the inhabitants of the earth; He fashions their hearts individually; He considers all their works. note: "As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter." Max Planck - The Father Of Quantum Mechanics - Das Wesen der Materie [The Nature of Matter], speech at Florence, Italy (1944)(Of Note: Max Planck was a devout Christian, which is not surprising when you realize practically every, if not every, founder of each major branch of modern science also 'just so happened' to have a deep Christian connection.) Colossians 1:17 "He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." further notes: Intelligent Design - The Anthropic Hypothesis http://lettherebelight-77.blogspot.com/2009/10/intelligent-design-anthropic-hypothesis_19.htmlbornagain77
April 21, 2011
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This is gibberish. "Nature" has free will to do things "on its own"? Nature is sovereign but God is not? They have made nature into an intelligent (or at least free and willful) designer while they deny the concept of intelligent design. Do these guys read their own stuff? Do they believe this qualifies as intelligent discourse? "Difficult to understand" indeed.stjones
April 21, 2011
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The moment someone calls himself Christian you naturally assume that they believe in the revelation God has provided in the Bible. The last time I looked there is an explanation for evil in the Bible. It is called the Fall. “For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.” – Romans 8:19-23 There is a dark spiritual dimension out there clearly described throughout the Bible, of which Satan is its prince, and which the “Christian Evolutionists” conveniently choose to ignore. Jesus speaking: “You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.” – John 8:44 The apostle Paul: “For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.” – Ephesians 6:12 There is no logic or consistency in Giberson’s beliefs. He seems to want to sell Christianity to the atheists. Maybe he wants the atheists to like him so that if they like him they might like Jesus. Well, it doesn’t work that way. If you are a Christian you have to be antithetical. You can’t be friends with the world and a friend of God.aedgar
April 21, 2011
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In defter hands than those of Giberson and Collins, such arguments are always used to undermine both God’s existence and human freedom. I think one only needs to ask if atheists, in believing that God does not exist, A) Therefore believe that nature is endowed with an abundance of freedom, and B) believe that this abundance of "freedom" therefore shows that we have free will, or that they therefore really "act independently" of anything. (If it's now merely an unplanned nature rather than God that ultimately directs their actions, how independent are they really?) This is disappointing in the extreme. I thought Ayala may have been in a minority over at Biologos. Instead, his thoughts seem to be the mainstay of the organization.nullasalus
April 21, 2011
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