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From IAI News: How infinity threatens cosmology

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Peter Cameron, Emeritus Professor Mathematics at Queen Mary, University of London, writes:

There are many approaches to infinity through the twin pillars of science and religion, but I will just restrict my attention here to the views of mathematicians and physicists.

22 09 23.infinity2.ata
IAI News

Aristotle was one of the most influential Greek philosophers. He believed that we could consider “potential infinity” (we can count objects without knowing how many more are coming) but that a “completed infinity” is taboo. For mathematicians, infinity was off-limits for two millennia after Aristotle’s ban. Galileo tried to tackle the problem, noting that an infinite set could be matched up with a part of itself, but in the end drew back. It was left to Cantor in the nineteenth century to show us the way to think about infinity, which is accepted by most mathematicians now. There are infinitely many counting numbers; any number you write down is a negligible step along the way to infinity. So Cantor’s idea was to imagine we have a package containing all these numbers; put a label on it saying “The natural numbers”, and treat the package as a single entity. If you want to study individual numbers, you can break open the package and take them out to look at them.  Now you can take any collection of these packages, and bundle them up to form another single entity. Thus, set theory is born. Cantor investigated ways of measuring these sets, and today set theory is the commonest foundation for mathematics, though other foundations have been proposed. 

One of Cantor’s discoveries is that there is no largest infinite set: given any set you can always find a larger one. The smallest infinite set is the set of natural numbers. What comes next is a puzzle which can’t be resolved at present. It may be the real (decimal) numbers, or maybe not. Our current foundations are not strong enough, and building larger telescopes will not help with this question. Perhaps in the future we will adopt new foundations for mathematics which will resolve the question.

These questions keep set theorists awake at night; but most mathematicians work near the bottom of this dizzying hierarchy, with small infinities. For example, Euclid proved that the prime numbers “go on for ever”. (Aristotle would say, “Whatever prime you find, I can find a larger one.”

While Kronecker (a fierce opponent of Cantor’s ideas) thought in the nineteenth century that “God created the natural numbers; the rest is the work of man”, we can now build the natural numbers using the tools of set theory, starting from nothing (more precisely the empty set).

Mathematicians know, however, that there is a huge gap between the finite and the infinite. If you toss a coin 100 times, it is not impossible (just very unlikely) that it will come down tails each time. But, if you could imagine tossing a coin infinitely often, then the chance of not getting heads and tails equally often is zero. Of course, you could never actually perform this experiment; but mathematics is a conceptual science, and we are happy to accept this statement on the basis of a rigorous proof.

Infinity in physics and cosmology has not been resolved so satisfactorily. The two great twentieth-century theories of physics, general relativity (the theory of the very large) and quantum mechanics (the theory of the very small) have resisted attempts to unite them. The one thing most physicists can agree on is that the universe came into being a finite time ago (about 13.7 billion years) — large, but not infinite. 

The James Webb Space Telescope has just begun showing us unprecedented details in the universe. As well as nearby objects, it sees the furthest objects ever observed. Because light travels at a finite speed, these are also the oldest objects observed, having been formed close to the beginning of the Universe. The finite speed of light also puts limits on what we can see; if an object is so far away that its light could not reach us if it travelled for the whole age of the universe, then we are unaware of its existence. So Malunkyaputta’s question about whether the universe is finite or infinite is moot. But is it eternal or not? That is a real question, and is so far undecided.

Attempts to reconcile relativity and quantum theory have been made. The ones currently most promising adopt a very radical attitude to infinity. They deny that the infinitely small can exist in the universe, but prescribe a minimum possible scale, essentially the so-called Planck scale.

Such a solution would put an end to Zeno’s paradox. Zeno denied the possibility of motion, since to move from A to B you first have to move to a point C halfway to B, and before that to a point D halfway from A to C, and so on to infinity. If space is not infinitely divisible, then this infinite regress cannot occur. (This solution was already grasped by Democritus and the early Greek atomists.)

Of course, this leaves us with a conceptual problem similar to the one raised by the possibility that the university is finite. In that case, the obvious question is “If the universe has an edge, what is beyond it?” In the case of the Planck length, the question would be “Given any length, however small, why can’t I just take half of it?”

Perhaps because we have been conditioned by Zeno’s paradox, we tend to think of the points on a line to be, like the real numbers, infinitely divisible: between any two we can find another. But current thinking is that the universe is not built this way.

More important to physics, the atomist hypothesis also gets rid of another annoying occurrence of infinity in physics. Black holes in general relativity are points of spacetime where the density of matter becomes infinite and the laws of physics break down. These have been a thorn in the flesh of cosmologists since their existence was first predicted, since by definition we cannot understand what happens there. If space is discrete, we cannot put infinitely many things infinitely close together, and the paradox is avoided. We can still have extremely high density; the black hole recently observed and photographed at the centre of our own galaxy is (on this theory) just a point of such high density that light cannot escape, but does not defy our ability to understand it.

Time, however, remains a problem; current theories cannot decide the ultimate fate of the universe. Does it end with heat death, a cold dark universe where nothing happens? Does the mysterious “dark energy” become so strong that it rips the universe to shreds? Or does the expansion from the Big Bang go into reverse, so that the universe ends in a Big Crunch?

None of this matters to us individually. The sun will expand and swallow the earth long before the universe reaches its end.

Full article at IAI News.

Although this article glosses over some concepts in physics and cosmology, it raises interesting points to ponder.

Comments
Origenes @409 said:
How would you define “enjoyment” in this context? In my view it is crucial to point out that a free choice stems from the person, as opposed to stemming from something beyond the control of the person. WRT motivation, perhaps, I would say that, in general, a person tends to choose an act, among alternatives, which is the most harmonious with the entirety of his being. IOWs the act he can stand behind the most. To be clear, I have serious doubts whether or not this constitutes an all-encompassing rule WRT motivation. Does this relate to “enjoy”?
The question would be, why would one make choices that are harmonious with your whole self and that you can stand behind? Why not make a choice that runs counter to that or undermines it? It is because you project that doing the former would result in a more enjoyable outcome/state in those conceptual terms. Perhaps you feel at peace with yourself and satisfied that you make decisions you can stand behind and perhaps be honest about (because you enjoy - conceptually, psychologically, perhaps physically - "being honest.") Perhaps you enjoy living up to certain principles and having what you consider to be virtuous characteristics. Enjoyment is not hedonism. There are many forms of enjoyment: immediate, physical, delayed, conceptual, spiritual, mental, etc. One might enjoy vanilla ice cream and someone else might enjoy abstaining from sweets altogether even though they love sweets because they are serving a delayed or more abstract enjoyment, like losing weight in the future or demonstrating their will power to themselves. One might march into battle because they enjoy being a patriot and the sense they are protecting those weaker than them; another person might flee because the more enjoy the odds of staying alive to continue with their more direct enjoyments. Or, they might remove themselves based on some principle they enjoy holding. I would say that a "harmonious self making decisions one can stand behind" would be a person with well-managed enjoyments in their current inner and external landscape, immediate, physical, and abstract, conceptual. To be clear, particular available carrots and sticks of enjoyment potentials are not the reasons we make the decision; they are just aspects of our current internal and external landscape. The reason we make any decision is just "to enjoy." Every decision is a matter of some form of preference. We prefer A over B because we perceive/believe that A increases enjoyment, decreases unenjoyment, or helps in enjoyment management. "Towards enjoyment," or preference, is not extractable from "free will." If it was extracted, how the heck would we make any choices? What would be the essential, fundamental reason for making ANY choice?William J Murray
October 6, 2022
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Origenes @414 said:
Regarding 4D and 5D origins, this prompts the question of where the 4D and 5D causally originated. Infinity is not a good answer because it’s the logical equivalent of a divide by zero statement. Note that without causality all science stops and everything becomes a statistical miracle.
As I've argued before, the potential for everything that can be said to ever come to exist (all possible things) always existed, or else nothing could have ever come into existence regardless of how else one thinks about any origin or creation story. Nothing can be caused to happen unless that exact effect already exists as information in potentia. Information from the potential is translated into experience within and by a conscious mind. The 4D world is a construct of perspective experienced in a conscious mind, not of external actuality (in the old material world sense of "actuality.") The causal factor of what the conscious mind experiences is the conscious mind of the observer. There's nothing else that can possibly be causal, and 100 yeas of quantum physics (as well as mundane physiological and psychological) experimentation has clearly demonstrated beyond its logical necessity. Once this is properly understood, it stands as a self-evident truth. As far as science is concerned, it would end the perspective that science is exploring "objective reality." We're already there, it's just a concept that is extremely difficult to let go of for most. I would address the concept of "infinity" this way, which to me is the only way it matters: I think that what lies in the potential is "all possible things." That's a mind-boggling number, but it' not truly infinite. It's just infinite for all practical purposes.
If you revise this to assert that reality is fundamentally information, you will be in complete agreement with Anton Zeilinger, an Austrian quantum physicist and Nobel laureate in physics of 2022. I think your use of the term “mental reality” is equivalent to what I term “conscious observation.”
Heh, I just got to this, so it looks like we are largely in agreement. The reason I use square circle instead of something like "the Easter Bunny" is that I can imagine and perhaps even dream about the Easter Bunny. But I cannot imagine or dream about a square circle. There is obviously "Easter Bunny" information that has always been in the potential. Whether or not that by itself makes the Easter Bunny real just depends on how one defines "real" and where you draw the line between what is real and what is not.William J Murray
October 6, 2022
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Dogdoc: Perhaps you missed my revised argument at 398. Judging by your comment 426, I'd say I have correctly understood you in 398 because in it I compare to "beliefs and desires" to "walls and traffic" - any contextual condition within which we make choices.William J Murray
October 6, 2022
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Origenes,
Unlike Harris I choose to believe that I exist. Are you arguing that I have no choice in doing so because I observe myself?
Again: Could you simply choose to believe something you don't believe? No, of course you can't.
If that is your claim, then how do you explain Harris’ who (supposedly) also observes himself but holds that he does not exist?
I don't want to debate what Harris believes, but I think saying "he doesn't believe he exists" is a cartoon version of his point about selves. His belief is consistent with his conscious experience. WJM misread my argument. I am not talking about causes. Nor am I talking about constraints on our freedom. I'm saying that in order for our choices to be free, the reasons for our choices must be freely chosen, but that is impossible.dogdoc
October 6, 2022
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Dogdoc @
We do not freely choose our sense perceptions, and if we make a decision based on our perception then our choice is not free.
Unlike Harris I choose to believe that I exist. Are you arguing that I have no choice in doing so because I observe myself? If that is your claim, then how do you explain Harris' who (supposedly) also observes himself but holds that he does not exist? What WJM wrote earlier seems relevant here:
You’re mistaking the reason for making any decision for the landscape within which one makes the decision. You might as well substitute walls and traffic for beliefs and desires. I didn’t choose where the walls exist or what the traffic is like in my life, either. Does it mean I don’t have free will because my choices must take into account the current walls and traffic of where I live?
Origenes
October 6, 2022
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re 423, to Q: You write, “Models should never be confused with reality. Models can be useful within their limits for a time.” I totally agree. We test our models against reality, and if they don’t agree, we adjust our model. The map is not the territory. When I wrote, “As the video you linked to describes (I think it was you), with Kuhn interviewing Smolin, it is out-dated and false to think of either space or time in the Cartesian sense of an arena, modeled by a coordinate system, in which all events happen.”, you replied, “Cartesian is your term, not mine, nor is the term ever used by Lee Smolin as far as I’ve read. ... In no way would I assert his views as “being out-of-date.” ... “I would not describe him as “out-of-date.” Hmmm, I’ve explained this once before: it is NOT Smolin who brought up the out-of-date idea of space and time as modeled by a coordinate system in which all events happen. It was Kuhn who brought that up and Smolin who then said, yes, that is out-of-date, and here is the modern way to think about. I have not questioned Smolin’s ideas or credentials at all. Also, Cartesian is a standard term for a coordinate system based on the number line, extending infinitely in all directions. From Wikipedia:
Cartesian coordinate system in a plane is a coordinate system that specifies each point uniquely by a pair of numerical coordinates, which are the signed distances to the point from two fixed perpendicular oriented lines, measured in the same unit of length. ... One can use the same principle to specify the position of any point in three-dimensional space by three Cartesian coordinates, its signed distances to three mutually perpendicular planes ...In general, n Cartesian coordinates (an element of real n-space) specify the point in an n-dimensional Euclidean space for any dimension n.
The old way of thinking is then that time is a one-dimensional Cartesian system separate from 3-dimensional Cartesian space. Smolin is saying all that is out-dated, and I agree with him. Last, you writes, “I don’t agree with Dr. Smolin’s presumption of deterministic materialism, ...” I have asked you before about the phrase “deterministic materialism”. I’d be interested in discussing the following: 1. What do you mean by materialism? 2. What does deterministic mean when applied to the word materialism? 3. What is it about Smolin’s views that count as supporting or advocating for “deterministic materialism”? By the way, I watched the 2nd half of the Kuhn/Smolin video, so I’ve now watched the whole thing.Viola Lee
October 6, 2022
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Origenes, When you look at the sky, do you freely choose to see it as blue? Could you choose to see it as green? We do not freely choose our sense perceptions, and if we make a decision based on our perception then our choice is not free.dogdoc
October 6, 2022
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Dogdoc
Did you freely choose to perceive yourself as having a self? If not then ...
I don't understand your question. Are you suggesting that someone or something (a reason?) beyond my control forces me to observe myself? Could you please elaborate?Origenes
October 6, 2022
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Q,
My choice to do so is simply based on self-observation and consequent reasoning
Did you freely choose to perceive yourself as having a self? If not then your choice to disbelieve Harris is based on a reason that was not of your choosing. When I introspect I perceive that my conscious thoughts come to me unbidden, and base some of my beliefs on that unchosen perception. And so on.dogdoc
October 6, 2022
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Viola Lee @419,
Thanks, Q. You write, “For example, postulating that because infinity (arguably infinities) exists in mathematics as in the number line, we can conclude that the universe has been in existence an infinite amount of time.” That’s a fallacious argument. As you said, we use math to model reality, but we have to have reason to believe that our model is appropriate.
Models should never be confused with reality. Models can be useful within their limits for a time.
There is no reason to think that using the infinite number line to model some structure of time as it might extend before our universe is thought to have begun is appropriate.
I don't, but some people, do. Before the Big Bang theory was introduced in 1927 (and expanded by Hubble in 1929), most scientists believed in an infinite steady-state model of the universe. Even in the 1950s and 1960s, support was still evenly divided between the two theories.
As the video you linked to describes (I think it was you), with Kuhn interviewing Smolin, it is out-dated and false to think of either space or time in the Cartesian sense of an arena, modeled by a coordinate system, in which all events happen.
Cartesian is your term, not mine, nor is the term ever used by Lee Smolin as far as I've read. But Smolin is highly respected as a theoretical physicist and the interview was conducted only about 18 months ago. His CV is here: https://leesmolin.com/academic-cv/ I don't agree with Dr. Smolin's presumption of deterministic materialism, but I still respect him and read his books. In no way would I assert his views as "being out-of-date." In fact, in any debate with him, your arguments (and mine) would certainly be (kindly and humanely) chewed up and spit out in little pieces. But that doesn't mean he can't be wrong and that you or I can't disagree with him, but I would not describe him as "out-of-date." -QQuerius
October 6, 2022
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Andrew at 420, There is a difference between beliefs and facts. Some adopt the nonsensical position that beliefs need to start with a brain that has zero and then - only then - can you fill it with beliefs. That's nonsensical. Anyway, established facts that are obvious or easy to confirm, are chosen since they are obvious. As a kid, you find out the hard way that the stove is hot or the pot sitting on the stove is hot. That's not a belief, it's a fact you can demonstrate. So facts learned from experience and from your teachers while growing up are accepted as facts. It's in those books you have to read. Beliefs would include deciding if there might be life on other planets. You can't confirm it but you have read enough and you tend to believe in the idea. We also make judgments when we meet new people or when we're in a crowd of unfamiliar people. We size them up. We determine who we might want to talk to and who we might want to avoid.relatd
October 6, 2022
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re 420: yes, that is what I am saying. And the cumulative act of choosing those things, and consulting them as you make further choices, is that which constitutes the freedom of self-determination.Viola Lee
October 6, 2022
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As soon as your brain begins to develop reasoning, you begin accepting, rejecting, maintaining, downgrading, switching, enforcing, romanticizing, scrutinizing, etc.. your beliefs, which are acts of the will. Andrewasauber
October 6, 2022
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Thanks, Q. You write, "For example, postulating that because infinity (arguably infinities) exists in mathematics as in the number line, we can conclude that the universe has been in existence an infinite amount of time." That's a fallacious argument. As you said, we use math to model reality, but we have to have reason to believe that our model is appropriate. There is no reason to think that using the infinite number line to model some structure of time as it might extend before our universe is thought to have begun is appropriate. As the video you linked to describes (I think it was you), with Kuhn interviewing Smolin, it is out-dated and false to think of either space or time in the Cartesian sense of an arena, modeled by a coordinate system, in which all events happen.Viola Lee
October 6, 2022
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Dogdoc @388
When one chooses to adopt or discard some belief, that choice is either made for no reason at all, or it based on reasons – that is, other beliefs. This regress goes on – you need to already have your beliefs in order to choose your beliefs, which is impossible.
A concrete example would be that I discard Sam Harris’ belief that the self is an illusion. My choice to do so is simply based on self-observation and consequent reasoning — see e.g. #289. End of the line …. I do not see an endless regress WRT beliefs as you seem to suggest.Origenes
October 6, 2022
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Viola Lee @416, Yes, calculus can used to model reality fairly well in reality within limits. The problem manifested in the orbit of Mercury is an example of the limits of traditional orbital mechanics as is the three-body problem as you probably know. Ratios of increments are also valid as are calculating limits. However, as we discussed before in some detail, projecting mathematical infinities onto real-world processes often results in problems and paradoxes, which is exactly what this topic is (or should be) all about. For example, postulating that because infinity (arguably infinities) exists in mathematics as in the number line, we can conclude that the universe has been in existence an infinite amount of time leads to problems and paradoxes of infinite causality, entropy, and information. As for the rest, I was just having some fun, although I'm semi-serious about the T-shirt. P.S. How can we be sure in context of Kurt Gödel's incompleteness theorems that we're using the appropriate mathematical system to model reality? How can we be sure that multiple systems aren't required to model reality? -QQuerius
October 6, 2022
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Q, do you accept calculus as a mathematical tool that can accurately model real-world phenomena ? There is a difference between claiming that a infinite number of discrete object can be instantiated in reality (the general consensus is that they can't) and using the idea of an infinite number of points which are infinitely small and infinitely many at a greater order of infinity than the first case (real numbers) to model continuity. I am really not sure what your seeming disavowal of infinity is this second case is all about.Viola Lee
October 6, 2022
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Kairosfocus @406,
A physically — thermodynamically constrained — instantiated infinity is where the troubles come from.
Bingo! As I've maintained, applying infinity to reality is the logical equivalent of a divide by zero error in math. Another way of looking at this problem is to imagine traveling a specified distance at increments of zero an infinite number of times. But that only works for large values of zero and small values of infinity. ;-) P.S. I'm thinking of getting a T-shirt printed with "L'Hôpital Rules" on it! -QQuerius
October 6, 2022
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William J Murray @405,
Well, to be fair, Q is just asking for possible alternatives.
Yes, exactly! Thank you. Regarding 4D and 5D origins, this prompts the question of where the 4D and 5D causally originated. Infinity is not a good answer because it’s the logical equivalent of a divide by zero statement. Note that without causality all science stops and everything becomes a statistical miracle.
The only way any information can exist or be conveyed is if we live in a mental reality, because all information is mental in nature.
If you revise this to assert that reality is fundamentally information, you will be in complete agreement with Anton Zeilinger, an Austrian quantum physicist and Nobel laureate in physics of 2022. I think your use of the term “mental reality” is equivalent to what I term “conscious observation.”
There’s no such thing as “non-existence.” It’s like saying “square circle.”
You’re right that “non-existence” is NOT a thing. It is “no thing” (nothing). FWIW, Instead of the “square circle” example, I use logical substitution: The Easter Bunny doesn’t exist as a thing. It is nothing. Thus, to assert that the Big Bang originated from nothing is equivalent to asserting that the universe originated from the Easter Bunny! Thanks again. -QQuerius
October 6, 2022
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William J Murray @402, Thanks for getting back on topic with me.
unless you are saying that we are still in “the big bang” as some form of alternate definition of the term.
Yep, that’s exactly what the Big Bang theory asserts! Here’s a standard representation beginning with one or more rapid inflationary periods followed by expansion, WHICH WE ARE STILL PART OF. Notice that the expansion rate is believed to be accelerating now. https://opentextbc.ca/geology/wp-content/uploads/sites/110/2015/09/figure22.png The current belief among cosmologists is that both space and time (aka spacetime) appeared simultaneously 13.8 billion years ago. -QQuerius
October 6, 2022
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Dogdoc: Have you a response to my post at #323?PaV
October 6, 2022
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Querius at 399, You are making absolutely no sense. Do you wander in fields during pitch-black nights in the hope that you won't fall into a hole or walk off a cliff? Real life offers if this then that choices ONLY. Stupid comedy is stupid comedy. Your unique example, as if from a movie, is unique to my experience and the same for everyone I've known and still know. I think you knew there would be negative consequences.relatd
October 6, 2022
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of further note to 408:
Inflationary Spacetimes Are Incomplete in Past Directions Arvind Borde, Alan H. Guth, and Alexander Vilenkin - 15 April 2003 Abstract: Many inflating spacetimes are likely to violate the weak energy condition, a key assumption of singularity theorems. Here we offer a simple kinematical argument, requiring no energy condition, that a cosmological model which is inflating—or just expanding sufficiently fast—must be incomplete in null and timelike past directions. Specifically, we obtain a bound on the integral of the Hubble parameter over a past-directed timelike or null geodesic. Thus inflationary models require physics other than inflation to describe the past boundary of the inflating region of spacetime. https://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.90.151301
bornagain77
October 6, 2022
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WJM @403
If there is any directive from a creator written into the fabric of consciousness of all sentient beings, innately, inescapably motivating every free will choice, it is this simple commandment: “Enjoy.”
How would you define “enjoyment” in this context? In my view it is crucial to point out that a free choice stems from the person, as opposed to stemming from something beyond the control of the person. WRT motivation, perhaps, I would say that, in general, a person tends to choose an act, among alternatives, which is the most harmonious with the entirety of his being. IOWs the act he can stand behind the most. To be clear, I have serious doubts whether or not this constitutes an all-encompassing rule WRT motivation. Does this relate to “enjoy”?Origenes
October 6, 2022
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Origenes, you might also find this interesting.
“There is another development in theoretical physics called the Borde, Guth, Vilenkin theorem. And its not based on General Relativity but its based on Special Relativity. And for that reason it is not effected by postulations about what gravity might or might not have been like in the first tiny smidgen of time after the beginning of the universe. And it is those speculations that prevented the Hawking, Penrose, Ellis, singularity theorem from absolutely proving a beginning point. Instead the Borde, Guth, Vilenkin, theorem proves a beginning to the universe on the basis of considerations from special relativity that have nothing to do with whether or not there were quantum fluctuations within the first tiny smidgen of time after the beginning of the universe, and whether gravity might have worked differently or not. Instead it is independent of all those kind of considerations and caveats that prevent us from saying that the Hawking, Penrose, Ellis, results are absolute proofs (for a beginning of the universe). Instead you have a very strong proof of a beginning from theoretical physics that is not dependent on these conditions.”,,, - Stephen Meyer Discusses the Big Bang, Einstein, Hawking, and More – video – 36:42 minute mark https://youtu.be/m_AeA4fMHhI?t=2202
And here is the BGV paper that provides a "very strong proof" for a beginning to the universe
Inflationary spacetimes are not past-complete - 2003 Arvind Borde,1, 2 Alan H. Guth,1, 3 and Alexander Vilenkin1 Excerpt: we will construct a definition for H that depends only on the relative motion of the observer and test particles. In order to motivate what we do, we first consider the case of nonrelativistic velocities in Minkowski space. Suppose that the observer measures the velocities of the test particles as a function of the time t on his own clock.,,, IV. Discussion. Our argument shows that null and time- like geodesics are, in general, past-incomplete in inflationary models, whether or not energy conditions hold, provided only that the averaged expansion condition Hav > 0 holds along these past-directed geodesics. This is a stronger conclusion than the one arrived at in previous work [8] in that we have shown under reasonable assumptions that almost all causal geodesics, when extended to the past of an arbitrary point, reach the boundary of the inflating region of spacetime in a finite proper time (finite affine length, in the null case). https://www.brainmaster.com/software/pubs/physics/Inflation%20past0110012v2.pdf “The conclusion is that past-eternal inflation is impossible without a beginning.” - Alexander Vilenkin – from pg. 35 ‘New Proofs for the Existence of God’ by Robert J. Spitzer (of note: As well, an elegant “Einstein-like” thought experiment of a space traveler traveling to another galaxy, that Borde, Guth, and Vilenkin, used to illustrate the validity of the proof, is on pg. 35 of the book also.)
bornagain77
October 6, 2022
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Bornagain @396 Thank you for this interesting article. As I understand it (correct me if I am wrong) the BGV theorem shows that an eternal bouncing/cyclical universe must be perfectly balanced in every way. The IS model doesn't meet this criterion:
Each iteration grows vastly larger than the previous one, so the universe is on average always expanding ...
Due to this imbalance in scale it can be shown, by applying the BGV theorem, that such a universe cannot have an infinite past (it must have a beginning) or as they put it: the IS model is "geodesically pastincomplete". For some reason, and here I suspect Gödel’s incompleteness theorem is relevant, it is not possible for physicists and mathematicians to come up with a universe model which is in itself perfectly balanced, put differently: it is not possible to come up with a model of a perpetuum mobile.Origenes
October 6, 2022
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A physically -- thermodynamically constrained -- instantiated infinity is where the troubles come from.kairosfocus
October 5, 2022
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Well, to be fair, Q is just asking for possible alternatives.
a. Are there alternatives to an infinitely small initiation of the big bang?
Yes. The so-called "big bang" location in 4D spacetime is not the actual initiation of anything. That's just what it looks like from a certain 4D perspective. It's like holding a ruler in your hand, pointing at the edge of zero inches, and saying that edge caused the rest of the ruler to emerge.
b. All the information needed for determinism must necessarily emerge from a single point.
This is factually inaccurate under GR spacetime theory. Determinism could be true from a 5D perspective, but we have the pesky problem of 100 years of quantum physics putting the kibosh on that idea. The 4D spacetime structure would have to be solid-state in some sense for determinism to be true. Super-determinism is pretty much just a wish in the minds of many theorists at this point.
How is this information conveyed? How is any information conveyed?
The only way any information can exist or be conveyed is if we live in a mental reality, because all information is mental in nature.
c. What can initiate a big bang from non-existence?
There's no such thing as "non-existence." It's like saying "square circle."William J Murray
October 5, 2022
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I responded. I asked questions about b which you didn't reply to. Of course the questions remains unanswered because I am sure nobody here, and really nobody, knows the answers. Why are you asking again?Viola Lee
October 5, 2022
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If there is any directive from a creator written into the fabric of consciousness of all sentient beings, innately, inescapably motivating every free will choice, it is this simple commandment: "Enjoy."William J Murray
October 5, 2022
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