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From IAI News: How infinity threatens cosmology

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Peter Cameron, Emeritus Professor Mathematics at Queen Mary, University of London, writes:

There are many approaches to infinity through the twin pillars of science and religion, but I will just restrict my attention here to the views of mathematicians and physicists.

22 09 23.infinity2.ata
IAI News

Aristotle was one of the most influential Greek philosophers. He believed that we could consider “potential infinity” (we can count objects without knowing how many more are coming) but that a “completed infinity” is taboo. For mathematicians, infinity was off-limits for two millennia after Aristotle’s ban. Galileo tried to tackle the problem, noting that an infinite set could be matched up with a part of itself, but in the end drew back. It was left to Cantor in the nineteenth century to show us the way to think about infinity, which is accepted by most mathematicians now. There are infinitely many counting numbers; any number you write down is a negligible step along the way to infinity. So Cantor’s idea was to imagine we have a package containing all these numbers; put a label on it saying “The natural numbers”, and treat the package as a single entity. If you want to study individual numbers, you can break open the package and take them out to look at them.  Now you can take any collection of these packages, and bundle them up to form another single entity. Thus, set theory is born. Cantor investigated ways of measuring these sets, and today set theory is the commonest foundation for mathematics, though other foundations have been proposed. 

One of Cantor’s discoveries is that there is no largest infinite set: given any set you can always find a larger one. The smallest infinite set is the set of natural numbers. What comes next is a puzzle which can’t be resolved at present. It may be the real (decimal) numbers, or maybe not. Our current foundations are not strong enough, and building larger telescopes will not help with this question. Perhaps in the future we will adopt new foundations for mathematics which will resolve the question.

These questions keep set theorists awake at night; but most mathematicians work near the bottom of this dizzying hierarchy, with small infinities. For example, Euclid proved that the prime numbers “go on for ever”. (Aristotle would say, “Whatever prime you find, I can find a larger one.”

While Kronecker (a fierce opponent of Cantor’s ideas) thought in the nineteenth century that “God created the natural numbers; the rest is the work of man”, we can now build the natural numbers using the tools of set theory, starting from nothing (more precisely the empty set).

Mathematicians know, however, that there is a huge gap between the finite and the infinite. If you toss a coin 100 times, it is not impossible (just very unlikely) that it will come down tails each time. But, if you could imagine tossing a coin infinitely often, then the chance of not getting heads and tails equally often is zero. Of course, you could never actually perform this experiment; but mathematics is a conceptual science, and we are happy to accept this statement on the basis of a rigorous proof.

Infinity in physics and cosmology has not been resolved so satisfactorily. The two great twentieth-century theories of physics, general relativity (the theory of the very large) and quantum mechanics (the theory of the very small) have resisted attempts to unite them. The one thing most physicists can agree on is that the universe came into being a finite time ago (about 13.7 billion years) — large, but not infinite. 

The James Webb Space Telescope has just begun showing us unprecedented details in the universe. As well as nearby objects, it sees the furthest objects ever observed. Because light travels at a finite speed, these are also the oldest objects observed, having been formed close to the beginning of the Universe. The finite speed of light also puts limits on what we can see; if an object is so far away that its light could not reach us if it travelled for the whole age of the universe, then we are unaware of its existence. So Malunkyaputta’s question about whether the universe is finite or infinite is moot. But is it eternal or not? That is a real question, and is so far undecided.

Attempts to reconcile relativity and quantum theory have been made. The ones currently most promising adopt a very radical attitude to infinity. They deny that the infinitely small can exist in the universe, but prescribe a minimum possible scale, essentially the so-called Planck scale.

Such a solution would put an end to Zeno’s paradox. Zeno denied the possibility of motion, since to move from A to B you first have to move to a point C halfway to B, and before that to a point D halfway from A to C, and so on to infinity. If space is not infinitely divisible, then this infinite regress cannot occur. (This solution was already grasped by Democritus and the early Greek atomists.)

Of course, this leaves us with a conceptual problem similar to the one raised by the possibility that the university is finite. In that case, the obvious question is “If the universe has an edge, what is beyond it?” In the case of the Planck length, the question would be “Given any length, however small, why can’t I just take half of it?”

Perhaps because we have been conditioned by Zeno’s paradox, we tend to think of the points on a line to be, like the real numbers, infinitely divisible: between any two we can find another. But current thinking is that the universe is not built this way.

More important to physics, the atomist hypothesis also gets rid of another annoying occurrence of infinity in physics. Black holes in general relativity are points of spacetime where the density of matter becomes infinite and the laws of physics break down. These have been a thorn in the flesh of cosmologists since their existence was first predicted, since by definition we cannot understand what happens there. If space is discrete, we cannot put infinitely many things infinitely close together, and the paradox is avoided. We can still have extremely high density; the black hole recently observed and photographed at the centre of our own galaxy is (on this theory) just a point of such high density that light cannot escape, but does not defy our ability to understand it.

Time, however, remains a problem; current theories cannot decide the ultimate fate of the universe. Does it end with heat death, a cold dark universe where nothing happens? Does the mysterious “dark energy” become so strong that it rips the universe to shreds? Or does the expansion from the Big Bang go into reverse, so that the universe ends in a Big Crunch?

None of this matters to us individually. The sun will expand and swallow the earth long before the universe reaches its end.

Full article at IAI News.

Although this article glosses over some concepts in physics and cosmology, it raises interesting points to ponder.

Comments
Paxx Does God have free will?
This comment won the award for the dumbest question ever on UD. Kairosfocus give him/her the award.
Can God see into an indivivual human’s “choice maker” and know exactly what the choice will be before the choice is made? A “yes” answer necessarily makes the choice deterministic. A “no” answer means God is not omniscient. No getting around that. Yeah yeah, God “transcends time.” (Don’t we all.) A non-falsifiable, and therefore, worthless claim in the domain of rational discourse.
:) Only if there are no levels of understanding greater than yours.whistler
October 8, 2022
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Origenes @454,
I choose to hold that “I” exist —— to be clear, with “I” I refer to my consciousness, my viewpoint. I am the only one who has access to my “I”, put another way: no one but me can possibly have an informed opinion on this particular subject, therefor whatever I choose to believe about my “I” can only be my absolute responsibility, can only be the result of my fully self-determined choice.
You believe you exist, and you think you chose that belief freely. Are you able to choose that you don't exist? Try it! Any luck? No, I didn't think so. You did not make a free choice to believe that you exist, you are compelled to believe what you believe and cannot choose otherwise. You are misunderstanding the claim by Harris et al that there is no self, but I don't care to argue about that with you.
According to you, it seems, “free” means “free from any given context.”
It means the ability to freely choose the beliefs and desires that underlie a choice, which is impossible.
In your view freedom entails that a person is free if he is able to choose his beliefs, desires and observations (IOW he is free to choose who he is) and (probably) also what his external world looks like.
If some choice A is based on observations, then in order for that choice to be free then one would have to freely choose B what they perceive. But choice B is impossible, so choice A would not be free. Yes, you could say that in my view, choices are based on "who you are", and you cannot choose "who you are" because you would have to be you already before you made that choice.
And here you point out that your idea of freedom does not make logical sense, because choosing one’s beliefs and desires cannot be done without (prior) beliefs and desires.
Correct (unless one chooses randomly).
Next you do not (!) reject your incoherent concept of freedom and replace it with a better one, but instead you remarkably choose to cling to it. You boldly state that deciding one’s own beliefs and desires is the “basis for a free choice”, while you know full well that this is a self-contradictory concept. Finally you go on to claim that true freedom is not possible.
In free will discussions the first step is always to clarify what exactly is meant by "free will" or "free choice". I have carefully explained that what I mean is that 1) you choose based on reasons, and 2) those reasons are not chosen by anyone or anything else except you (if somebody else chose the reasons for your decisions, then your decision would not be freely chosen by you). I then point out that it is not possible to choose your own reasons (beliefs and desires), and thus conclude that the sort of freedom I've described (which I find most people believe they have) is impossible.dogdoc
October 8, 2022
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Paxx, God pervades everywhere and everywhen, indeed, in him we live, move and have our being. He is at the north pole of space time, due north of everywhere and everywhen. So, the notion of God knowing before is a category error, mistaking a temporally bound being for an eternal. Next, to know is not to cause, much less determine. So, it is a further carrying forward of the error to suppose God's north polar awareness forces the result in violation of the person. As for issues with omniscience, God's attributes are not arbitrary and are mutually consistent, e.g. God does not know how to draw a Euclidean plane square circle, as such is logically incoherent and infeasible, but he knows this fact of impossibility. It is hard to think about these things, so let's proceed knowing how little we know. KF PS, Jerry, this is an example of a real difficulty of thought worth at least a note, never mind whoever may try to throw rhetorical bombs.kairosfocus
October 8, 2022
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Will those still discussing free will willfully decide to stop commenting on free will or will the discussion depend on a quantum event a million years ago? Will we ever know? God only knows! But the interesting thing is that they believe they are learning something. Even though they are only automatons. Is this an example of determinism generating new knowledge? Can they decide if it is new knowledge? What other oxymorons are there to look forward to? Or are they just morons? We will have to see what the automatons come up with. Who said AI is in the future? It is happening right here on this thread on UD. Aside: can an automaton know if it is using bad logic? Bad knowledge? What does it mean to know? Is it a choice? Is it done willfully? Are anti ID people automatons and cannot help their poor choices? That would explain a lot. So many questions! Let’s hear it for the automatons that come here!!! They cannot help the keys they push on their keyboard. Aside2: do they know what a keyboard is?jerry
October 8, 2022
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Can God see into an indivivual human's "choice maker" and know exactly what the choice will be before the choice is made? A "yes" answer necessarily makes the choice deterministic. A "no" answer means God is not omniscient. No getting around that. Yeah yeah, God "transcends time." (Don't we all.) A non-falsifiable, and therefore, worthless claim in the domain of rational discourse.Paxx
October 8, 2022
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Dogdoc @
My claim is that if one makes a choice based on reasons (beliefs, desires, etc) then in order for the choice to be free then that person must have freely chosen to have those beliefs, desires, etc.
According to you, it seems, “free” means “free from any given context.” In your view freedom entails that a person is free if he is able to choose his beliefs, desires and observations (IOW he is free to choose who he is) and (probably) also what his external world looks like.
But it is impossible to freely choose choose your beliefs, desires, etc, because you must first have your beliefs, desires, etc in order to make that choice.
And here you point out that your idea of freedom does not make logical sense, because choosing one's beliefs and desires cannot be done without (prior) beliefs and desires. Next you do not (!) reject your incoherent concept of freedom and replace it with a better one, but instead you remarkably choose to cling to it. You boldly state that deciding one’s own beliefs and desires is the “basis for a free choice”, while you know full well that this is a self-contradictory concept. Finally you go on to claim that true freedom is not possible. Is the above a fair summation of your position?Origenes
October 8, 2022
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Which leads me to my next question, which is rather ultimate... Does God have free will? What determines God's choices? Why one decision over another? Does his "nature" determine his choices? Are God's choices deterministic? Food for thot.Paxx
October 8, 2022
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Dogdoc and WJM. Your responses are making my mind hum. And I love it. Fellow travellers.Paxx
October 8, 2022
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Dogdoc@
(... ) the choice is always based on reasons that ultimately originate externally.
I have argued against your idea in #289 by providing an example with a purely internal origin; something which cannot possibly have an external origin. The most relevant part at your convienence:
I choose to hold that “I” exist —— to be clear, with “I” I refer to my consciousness, my viewpoint. I am the only one who has access to my “I”, put another way: no one but me can possibly have an informed opinion on this particular subject, therefor whatever I choose to believe about my “I” can only be my absolute responsibility, can only be the result of my fully self-determined choice.
Origenes
October 8, 2022
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Paxx @450 said:
Humans make all kinds of strange and inconsistent choices. The lucky ones are the ones who’s reasons are most stable and consistent. They are the least insane. So while I think the enjoyment based model fits the facts the best, the reasons that inform the “chooser” are not necessarily stable. And that is a curse.
When you consider that our internal landscape has been haphazardly programmed by countless influences since birth, it's a wonder anyone acts with any semblance of consistency or sanity. At about the age of 30 I realized that my internal landscape - my psychology, subconscious, etc - was not producing an enjoyable life. I began a process of deprogramming and reprogramming myself using various techniques. The result was a transformation from a relatively miserable life to an exquisitely enjoyable one, that to this day just kept getting more and more enjoyable as I reprogrammed myself more easily every time any issue threatened or infringed upon my enjoyment. For example, I used to find conflict very unenjoyable. I programmed myself to enjoy it -not to seek it out, but to be very comfortable with it and enjoy it when it came into my life. I used to be cripplingly shy; I programmed myself out of it. I used to have anger issues; I honestly can't remember the last time I felt any anger about anything. I've reprogrammed myself into a truly fairy-tale like enjoyable life, and it all began with the realization that it's all up to me and I am free to program myself any way I want.William J Murray
October 8, 2022
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Paxx, Your depiction here is along the lines of Daniel Kahneman's notion of the experiencing vs. the remembering self, which I find it to be a compelling model of our motivational structures. In addition to Kahneman's dual selves, there are other schemes, for example a 2-dimensional continuum of emotional valence and arousal. Getting independent operational definitions of these metrics and testing models against experimental data could tell us more about choice-making. Kahneman has come under substantial criticism, but I think his work pointed toward further (better) explorations of our motivations.dogdoc
October 8, 2022
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Dogdoc said:
WJM holds that this consideration is always aimed at maximizing a single value, “enjoyment”. I used to think similarly. I no longer think that is very useful, though:
That's interesting. I've found it to be perhaps the most comprehensively useful, liberating and empowering bit of understanding I've ever acquired. Your argument for "compatibilism" (or your version of it) is the result of setting a standard for the quality of "freedom," wrt to will, that cannot be met because it requires that A not equal A, or that will and choice not be what they are (and cannot be anything different.) Meaning, "the reason(s)" and will are inseparable aspects of a single thing. There is no will without the reason; there is no reason without the will. Your position, if I understand correctly, is that reasons precede the will, and thus form a kind of determinism; but reasons cannot precede the will. Without will, there are no reasons. Without reasons, there is no will. Your argument depends on these two things being separable and one preceding the other; neither of these premises are true because they require A not being equal to A. IOW, "free" will cannot mean freedom from a reason, because there is no "will" without a reason.
I have a feeling that we actually agree about all of this. Yes, the exercise of one’s will is tantamount to computing the highest all-encompassing (for now and in the future) emotional valence.
Now we're talking! IMO, once you understand that will and "the reason" are inseparable aspects of the same thing, and the "the reason" is always ultimately about X, which I call "enjoyment" and you call "emotional valence," regardless of the inner and external landscape, it is at this point that you've found the Rosetta stone for (1) understanding yourself and other people, and (2) programming yourself toward maximum "emotional valence," or enjoyment.William J Murray
October 7, 2022
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dogdoc: Then that would mean my enjoyment in the long run would be greater if I drank beer. And so on. Right. But there's another consideration: the assessment of enjoyment that I have right this second, regarding "the now" and "the future", is not static. The brain is in a continual state of flux with regards to these "enjoyment" value judgments, which can complicate the thing to an almost crazy-making level. Take addiction, for example. One minute, "I want a drink". Your mind has a dim memory of the consquences of taking the drink. So you take the drink. And you take the next 12 drinks. Next morning, "crap, I did it again. WHY DO I DO THAT?!!!" Etc. Your current enjoyment is not what the current choser would choose. The current choser would like to reverse time, and have a re-do about that choice to drink, but we don't get to do that. Darn. This works at various levels. The addiction could just be ice cream. Or it could be cocaine. Or worse. Alcoholics call this "the insanity of the first drink." Humans make all kinds of strange and inconsistent choices. The lucky ones are the ones who's reasons are most stable and consistent. They are the least insane. So while I think the enjoyment based model fits the facts the best, the reasons that inform the "chooser" are not necessarily stable. And that is a curse.Paxx
October 7, 2022
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Paxx (and WJM), I suspected so. It's a compatibilist position - a person can make a choice, and it can be "free" in the sense of "uncoerced by other agents". But the choice is still the result of a consideration of one's beliefs and desires, and those are not themselves chosen. WJM holds that this consideration is always aimed at maximizing a single value, "enjoyment". I used to think similarly. I no longer think that is very useful, though: Why did you choose to work out instead of drink beer? Because I know that in the long run I'll have more enjoyment if I'm fit. How do you know that is the actual reason for your decision? Because I'm doing it! What if you chose the beer? Then that would mean my enjoyment in the long run would be greater if I drank beer. And so on.dogdoc
October 7, 2022
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dogdoc, I think I understand. Seems like your view, then, is identical to WJM's. (Which is mine too, if I understand him correctly.)Paxx
October 7, 2022
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Paxx,
Are you saying you can make a choice for no forward thinking reason? If so, that would necessarily be the effect of sheer randomness.
I'm saying that IF somebody claimed to have made a decision for no reason at all (a completely arbitrary, or random, choice) then I would not consider that to be an exercise of free will even though it was (perhaps) non-determined. My argument has nothing to do with determinism - it is about the reasons that can provide a basis for our choices. You can make a choice based on reasons (beliefs, desires, etc) but you cannot ultimately choose your reasons, any more than you can lift yourself by your own bootstraps.dogdoc
October 7, 2022
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dogdoc @441, Are you saying you can make a choice for no forward thinking reason? If so, that would necessarily be the effect of sheer randomness.Paxx
October 7, 2022
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Origenes “Of course Sam Harris does not agree. He holds that nothing is capable of denying it’s own existence and write a book about it.” Just like Krause who wrote a whole book telling us what “ nothing “ is! Vividvividbleau
October 7, 2022
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VB @440
… everything starts with the law of identity ….
Indeed, logic is about existence; about what something is and what something is not. And in my view logic is grounded in oneself, in one’s identity. One seperates reality in two parts: oneself and the external world; "I" and "not-I". “I” = “I”, “I” is not “not-I” and “A” is either “I” or “Not-I”.
… the reason for our choices start there, starts with existence.
Only what exists can do someting, can act. What does not exist cannot do anything; from nothing nothing comes. Of course Sam Harris does not agree. He holds that nothing is capable of denying it’s own existence and write a book about it.Origenes
October 7, 2022
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Asauber,
Beliefs aren’t facts,
Correct.
therefore they are subject to changes based on individual judgements/choices.
You don't seem to be familiar with the argument I'm making. If you believe one must never torture puppies, then it is impossible for you to simply change your belief and decide that it's important to torture puppies. One's beliefs change over time, but the changes are not under our own control.
Information set A points to X belief. Hold on, Information set B points to not X. My judgement says?
If your judgement picks "X", then your judgement must have been made for some reason. (If it wasn't, then it is merely an arbitrary judgement). In order for your choice to free then the reasons upon which your judgement was made must also have been freely chosen. In the end you cannot freely choose your own beliefs, desires, etc any more than you can lift yourself up by your own bootstraps.
So, if you are lurching to conclusions without thinking, that’s not a problem with the idea of free will, it’s a problem with personal discipline.
I'm disregarding choices made for no reason, because it is not the sort of choice that we are talking about when discussing free will.
You do have some control about what you think, you just haven’t practiced it enough to be good at it. In fact, the culture we live in is designed to weaken and destroy personal responsibility.
See above.dogdoc
October 7, 2022
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Origenes,
I observe myself and next I come to the conclusion that I am something real, something that truly exists. Sam Harris on the other hand, comes to the conclusion that he is an illusion; that he, in fact, does not exist.
Again I don't want to argue what Sam Harris thinks.
My claim is that a person is a free being, but his freedom does not extend to the world in which he finds himself. IOWs the free person has control over himself, but not over the external world (putting aside the fact that to some extend the person can manipulate this external world).
My claim is that if one makes a choice based on reasons (beliefs, desires, etc) then in order for the choice to be free then that person must have freely chosen to have those beliefs, desires, etc. But it is impossible to freely choose choose your beliefs, desires, etc, because you must first have your beliefs, desires, etc in order to make that choice..
Can we agree on the following: a free choice of a person, within the given parameters of the world external to him, stems from the person, as opposed to stemming from the world which surrounds him.
No, they cannot ultimately decide their own beliefs and desires (the basis for a free choice) any more than you can lift yourself up by your own bootstraps.
IOWs “free” refers to origin of choice.
I've argued that "free choice" refers to choices made for some reason(s) (beliefs, desires, etc), and that we cannot choose our own beliefs, desires, etc., so our choices are not free in that sense.
If the origin of a choice can be found within the person, then we speak of a “free choice”, and if the origin of a ‘choice’ is the external world [beyond the control of the person], then we speak of a “determined act”.
I am not discussing determinism here, only reasons. The choice comes from a person, but the choice is always based on reasons that ultimately originate externally.
The color of the sky is beyond one’s control. One cannot choose its color.
Agreed. Nor can one choose one's own beliefs and desires. I cannot choose to desire to torture puppies, for example.
You seem to argue that only if Solipsism is true, there can be free choice. Do I understand you correctly?
No, not at all - my argument has nothing to do with other minds.dogdoc
October 7, 2022
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WJM,
You’re apparently arguing that free will doesn’t exist because reasons for making choices exist.
I'm saying that if a choice is not made for some reason(s) then it is merely arbitary, not an exercise of the sort of free will worth wanting. If it is made for a reason, then the reason(s) cannot have themselves been freely chosen.
The truth is, free will cannot exist without reasons. Or, as I would argue, one fundamental, universal reason: enjoyment of one’s experience.
I have a feeling that we actually agree about all of this. Yes, the exercise of one's will is tantamount to computing the highest all-encompassing (for now and in the future) emotional valence.dogdoc
October 7, 2022
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Origenes “I observe myself and next I come to the conclusion that I am something real, something that truly exists” Good observation everything starts with the law of identity, the reason for our choices start there, starts with existence. “Can we agree on the following: a free choice of a person, within the given parameters of the world external to him, stems from the person, as opposed to stemming from the world which surrounds him. IOWs “free” refers to origin of choice. If the origin of a choice can be found within the person, then we speak of a “free choice”, and if the origin of a ‘choice’ is the external world [beyond the control of the person], then we speak of a “determined act”. Nicely stated. Vividvividbleau
October 7, 2022
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Debating a materialist. Question: Does the following back and forth look famliar to anyone? [Theist]: If materialism is true, then everything (including our thoughts & beliefs) results from laws of nature & events long before we were born. We control neither laws of nature nor events long before we were born. It follows that we do not control our thoughts & beliefs. Therefor, assuming that rationality requires control over one’s thoughts & beliefs, under materialism we are not rational. [Materialist]: That is total BS reasoning, because the reality is that people are rational! [Theist]: ….. ?!Origenes
October 7, 2022
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Viola Lee @427, Thanks for watching the rest of the Smolin interview. You asked
1. What do you mean by materialism? 2. What does deterministic mean when applied to the word materialism? 3. What is it about Smolin’s views that count as supporting or advocating for “deterministic materialism”?
Materialism in a scientific context is the idea that matter and energy is the only reality and that everything else is a result of interactions between matter and energy. This includes thoughts, emotions . . . and your will. The deterministic part of it is the idea that all events, including human choices and actions, are completely predetermined from previous states. It’s a sort of hyper-causality. However
. . . mathematics, while being a useful tool, is not the mirror of nature—there’s no mathematical object which is the perfect mirror of nature . . . – Lee Smolin
Lee Smolin in his latest book (2019), describes himself as a “realist,” meaning that objects exist and have properties independent of our measurements. He writes
Behind the century-long argument over quantum mechanics is a fundamental disagreement about the nature of reality—a disagreement which, unresolved, escalates into an argument about the nature of science. Two questions underlie the schism. First off, does the natural world exist independently of our minds? More precisely, does matter have a stable set of properties in and of itself, without regard to our perceptions and knowledge? Second, can those properties be comprehended and described by us? Can we understand enough about the laws of nature to explain the history of our universe and predict its future? [Q: My emphasis added.] The answers we give to these two questions have implications for larger questions about the nature and aim of science, and the role of science in the larger human project. These are, indeed, questions about the boundary between reality and fantasy. People who answer yes to these questions are called realists. Einstein was a realist. I am also a realist. We realists believe that there is a real world out there, whose properties in no way depend on our knowledge or perception of it. [Q: My emphasis added.]
This describes materialism and determinism. Dr. Smolin goes on to describe the massive challenge currently posed by quantum mechanics that seem to falsify realism and how he views that challenge. On the other side of the issue are physicists such as Eugene Wigner. Steven Weinberg writes
In the instrumentalist approach . . . humans are brought into the laws of nature at the most fundamental level. According to Eugene Wigner, a pioneer of quantum mechanics, “it was not possible to formulate the laws of quantum mechanics in a fully consistent way without reference to the consciousness.”
Max Planck, who’s considered the father of quantum mechanics stated the following in a speech delivered in Florence, Italy in 1944 titled The Nature of Matter:
As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear-headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter.
And, of course, there’s Vlatko Vedral, Professor of Physics at the University of Oxford, and CQT (Centre for Quantum Technologies) at the National University of Singapore, and a Fellow of Wolfson College. As a recognized leader in the field of quantum mechanics, here’s how he expresses it:
The most fundamental definition of reality is not matter or energy, but information––and it is the processing of information that lies at the root of all physical, biological, economic, and social phenomena.
So, it's currently believed that information is conserved. But what is the SOURCE of all information? Can it appear spontaneously and design things? -QQuerius
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So, if you are lurching to conclusions without thinking, that's not a problem with the idea of free will, it's a problem with personal discipline. You do have some control about what you think, you just haven't practiced it enough to be good at it. In fact, the culture we live in is designed to weaken and destroy personal responsibility. Andrewasauber
October 7, 2022
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"Could you simply choose to believe something you don’t believe?" Illogical question. Beliefs aren't facts, therefore they are subject to changes based on individual judgements/choices. Information set A points to X belief. Hold on, Information set B points to not X. My judgement says? Andrewasauber
October 7, 2022
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Dogdoc @
Again: Could you simply choose to believe something you don’t believe? No, of course you can’t.
My claim is not that one can choose to believe something one doesn’t believe. Where did you get that from? - - - - I observe myself and next I come to the conclusion that I am something real, something that truly exists. Sam Harris on the other hand, comes to the conclusion that he is an illusion; that he, in fact, does not exist.
I’m saying that in order for our choices to be free, the reasons for our choices must be freely chosen, but that is impossible.
My claim is that a person is a free being, but his freedom does not extend to the world in which he finds himself. IOWs the free person has control over himself, but not over the external world (putting aside the fact that to some extend the person can manipulate this external world). Can we agree on the following: a free choice of a person, within the given parameters of the world external to him, stems from the person, as opposed to stemming from the world which surrounds him. IOWs “free” refers to origin of choice. If the origin of a choice can be found within the person, then we speak of a “free choice”, and if the origin of a ‘choice’ is the external world [beyond the control of the person], then we speak of a “determined act".
When you look at the sky, do you freely choose to see it as blue? Could you choose to see it as green? We do not freely choose our sense perceptions, and if we make a decision based on our perception then our choice is not free.
The color of the sky is beyond one’s control. One cannot choose its color. You seem to argue that only if Solipsism is true, there can be free choice. Do I understand you correctly?Origenes
October 7, 2022
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Dogdoc Could you simply choose to believe something you don’t believe? No, of course you can’t.
Nonsense. A new information or a different approach /new perspective of a situation can change your beliefs.
in order for our choices to be free, the reasons for our choices must be freely chosen, but that is impossible.
Nonsense. You are just a creature and you don't have the power to create yourself neither the intelligence to decide all the processes involved . Somebody way smarter than yourself set the rules in place. Your free will is to play the proposed game / rules or reject them.
We do not freely choose our sense perceptions, and if we make a decision based on our perception then our choice is not free.
Nonsense. Freedom is not what you babble. Freedom involves moral choice not about what colour you prefer to see the sky or how many hands/fingers/etc. you want to have . You are just a limited creature with (a narrow) field given to you to express your free will.whistler
October 7, 2022
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Dogdoc said:
I’m saying that in order for our choices to be free, the reasons for our choices must be freely chosen, but that is impossible.
Choices don't exist without a reason to make a choice. Free will is about making choices; it doesn't exist without them. Choices don't exist without a reason to make them. Free will and "the reason" for making a choice are inseparable aspects of a whole. You're apparently arguing that free will doesn't exist because reasons for making choices exist. The truth is, free will cannot exist without reasons. Or, as I would argue, one fundamental, universal reason: enjoyment of one's experience. Saying you should be able to choose your own reason for making a choice is nonsensical because the choice itself does not exist without the co-existing reason to make a choice. They are two inseparable sides of the same coin.William J Murray
October 7, 2022
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