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From IAI News: How infinity threatens cosmology

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Peter Cameron, Emeritus Professor Mathematics at Queen Mary, University of London, writes:

There are many approaches to infinity through the twin pillars of science and religion, but I will just restrict my attention here to the views of mathematicians and physicists.

22 09 23.infinity2.ata
IAI News

Aristotle was one of the most influential Greek philosophers. He believed that we could consider “potential infinity” (we can count objects without knowing how many more are coming) but that a “completed infinity” is taboo. For mathematicians, infinity was off-limits for two millennia after Aristotle’s ban. Galileo tried to tackle the problem, noting that an infinite set could be matched up with a part of itself, but in the end drew back. It was left to Cantor in the nineteenth century to show us the way to think about infinity, which is accepted by most mathematicians now. There are infinitely many counting numbers; any number you write down is a negligible step along the way to infinity. So Cantor’s idea was to imagine we have a package containing all these numbers; put a label on it saying “The natural numbers”, and treat the package as a single entity. If you want to study individual numbers, you can break open the package and take them out to look at them.  Now you can take any collection of these packages, and bundle them up to form another single entity. Thus, set theory is born. Cantor investigated ways of measuring these sets, and today set theory is the commonest foundation for mathematics, though other foundations have been proposed. 

One of Cantor’s discoveries is that there is no largest infinite set: given any set you can always find a larger one. The smallest infinite set is the set of natural numbers. What comes next is a puzzle which can’t be resolved at present. It may be the real (decimal) numbers, or maybe not. Our current foundations are not strong enough, and building larger telescopes will not help with this question. Perhaps in the future we will adopt new foundations for mathematics which will resolve the question.

These questions keep set theorists awake at night; but most mathematicians work near the bottom of this dizzying hierarchy, with small infinities. For example, Euclid proved that the prime numbers “go on for ever”. (Aristotle would say, “Whatever prime you find, I can find a larger one.”

While Kronecker (a fierce opponent of Cantor’s ideas) thought in the nineteenth century that “God created the natural numbers; the rest is the work of man”, we can now build the natural numbers using the tools of set theory, starting from nothing (more precisely the empty set).

Mathematicians know, however, that there is a huge gap between the finite and the infinite. If you toss a coin 100 times, it is not impossible (just very unlikely) that it will come down tails each time. But, if you could imagine tossing a coin infinitely often, then the chance of not getting heads and tails equally often is zero. Of course, you could never actually perform this experiment; but mathematics is a conceptual science, and we are happy to accept this statement on the basis of a rigorous proof.

Infinity in physics and cosmology has not been resolved so satisfactorily. The two great twentieth-century theories of physics, general relativity (the theory of the very large) and quantum mechanics (the theory of the very small) have resisted attempts to unite them. The one thing most physicists can agree on is that the universe came into being a finite time ago (about 13.7 billion years) — large, but not infinite. 

The James Webb Space Telescope has just begun showing us unprecedented details in the universe. As well as nearby objects, it sees the furthest objects ever observed. Because light travels at a finite speed, these are also the oldest objects observed, having been formed close to the beginning of the Universe. The finite speed of light also puts limits on what we can see; if an object is so far away that its light could not reach us if it travelled for the whole age of the universe, then we are unaware of its existence. So Malunkyaputta’s question about whether the universe is finite or infinite is moot. But is it eternal or not? That is a real question, and is so far undecided.

Attempts to reconcile relativity and quantum theory have been made. The ones currently most promising adopt a very radical attitude to infinity. They deny that the infinitely small can exist in the universe, but prescribe a minimum possible scale, essentially the so-called Planck scale.

Such a solution would put an end to Zeno’s paradox. Zeno denied the possibility of motion, since to move from A to B you first have to move to a point C halfway to B, and before that to a point D halfway from A to C, and so on to infinity. If space is not infinitely divisible, then this infinite regress cannot occur. (This solution was already grasped by Democritus and the early Greek atomists.)

Of course, this leaves us with a conceptual problem similar to the one raised by the possibility that the university is finite. In that case, the obvious question is “If the universe has an edge, what is beyond it?” In the case of the Planck length, the question would be “Given any length, however small, why can’t I just take half of it?”

Perhaps because we have been conditioned by Zeno’s paradox, we tend to think of the points on a line to be, like the real numbers, infinitely divisible: between any two we can find another. But current thinking is that the universe is not built this way.

More important to physics, the atomist hypothesis also gets rid of another annoying occurrence of infinity in physics. Black holes in general relativity are points of spacetime where the density of matter becomes infinite and the laws of physics break down. These have been a thorn in the flesh of cosmologists since their existence was first predicted, since by definition we cannot understand what happens there. If space is discrete, we cannot put infinitely many things infinitely close together, and the paradox is avoided. We can still have extremely high density; the black hole recently observed and photographed at the centre of our own galaxy is (on this theory) just a point of such high density that light cannot escape, but does not defy our ability to understand it.

Time, however, remains a problem; current theories cannot decide the ultimate fate of the universe. Does it end with heat death, a cold dark universe where nothing happens? Does the mysterious “dark energy” become so strong that it rips the universe to shreds? Or does the expansion from the Big Bang go into reverse, so that the universe ends in a Big Crunch?

None of this matters to us individually. The sun will expand and swallow the earth long before the universe reaches its end.

Full article at IAI News.

Although this article glosses over some concepts in physics and cosmology, it raises interesting points to ponder.

Comments
But we are not arguing that there is no free will! You are just knee-jerking without trying to comprehend. For instance, read 265. Or 179-183, or 190. No one is arguing that free will doesn't exist. We are discussing what it means, and what are the limits free will imposes upon our responsibility are as free agents. Dogdoc is claiming that a certain type of ultimate responsibility is impossible, and I have argued, in 265, that there are flaws in that argument. Dogdoc appreciated my comment and asked for more clarification (the way people do in constructive discussions.) I find it pretty amazing the extent to which some of you don't even try to pay attention! Sad. :-(Viola Lee
October 4, 2022
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Jerry at 310, In summary: You have no free will. You are not responsible for your actions. I have a large bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you. Only $15 million. [I'm not responsible for posting that.]relatd
October 4, 2022
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why don’t you just ignore it?
Top 10 nominee for most ironic comment of year. How can a discussion on free will lead to a fruitful discussion if there is no such as free will to choose a comment that is relevant? How can someone honestly answer this question since there is no such thing as honesty? Would anyone be able to determine anything without free will? Aside: are off topic comments examples for or against free will? Do we freely have the choice to post a comment without free will? How does one determine what to put into a comment? Aside2: most important insight nominee of year. How does one propose no free will yet ignore any valid criticism of their own comments.     Time to end this charade! jerry
October 4, 2022
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See 288, 290, 293, 296, 297, 298, 299, 300, 301, 302, 303, and 304. Also, you write, "Let me suggest that philosophical issues about “free will” have now been thoroughly beaten to death and don’t need further dispute." That's your opinion, but obviously not true, as there is no philosophical consensus about the topic. If you and others are not interested in our discussion, why don't you just ignore it?Viola Lee
October 4, 2022
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Oh joy, another diversion. Please stay on topic. -QQuerius
October 4, 2022
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More: I am puzzled why people trying to have a serious discussion about one of the topics raised in the OP are being considered "trolls". You may not agree with us, or even be at all interested in the line of thought we are pursuing, but that doesn't make our presence here "trollish". Trolls are people who make useless, non-productive remarks for the purpose of arousing or expressing negative judgments or emotions. To be frank, I think most of the remarks this morning about trolls are themselves much better examples of trollish behavior than the remarks being criticized. Bible verse:
Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but don’t consider the beam that is in your own eye? Or how will you tell your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye;’ and behold, the beam is in your own eye? You hypocrite! First remove the beam out of your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother’s eye. (Matthew 7:3-5)
Viola Lee
October 4, 2022
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Free will entered the discussion only as part of the supposedly free will choice of what to measure in quantum mechanics related to wavefunction collapse and the Heisenberg choice. Since the fundamental nature of reality begins with quantum events, the involvement of conscious observation (aka the measurement problem) becomes relevant, especially since the Big Bang initially occurred at the quantum level. As anyone familiar with quantum mechanics knows, much of the work by theoretical physicists has been focused on maintaining deterministic materialism at the quantum level and with infinitely small distances that required infinite amounts of fine tuning to contain all information required to maintain determinism. So, additional perspectives that don't involve dog whistles and shouts of "squirrel" are welcome at this dog show as far as I'm concerned. Let me suggest that philosophical issues about "free will" have now been thoroughly beaten to death and don't need further dispute. Again, we're faced with the all of spacetime, mass-energy, laws of physics, and all information originating from nothing, but starting at a point infinitely small to determine everything studied in cosmology. -QQuerius
October 4, 2022
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Just got home: I'd like to point out that materialism is not part of this discussion about free will/responsibility: two of us are not materialists (Vivid and myself), and dogdoc has stated that the theism/materialism issue doesn't affect his argument. Carry on, and hopefully those of us actually contributing something substantive here will return.Viola Lee
October 4, 2022
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Bornagain @299 Thank you. Obviously Jerry Coyne must exist in order to deny his own existence. As Descartes argued, even the act of doubting one’s own existence is in fact confirmation of one’s existence —— I do something, therefor, I exist. The next insurmountable problem for materialists like Coyne is that, in order to be rational one has to be free. Jerry cannot be said to be a rational being if he is not in control of his thoughts and opinions. The problem for Coyne & co is that materialism explicitely states that Jerry’s thoughts and opinions (like everything else) are determined by events long before he was born & the laws of nature, as opposed to by Jerry Coyne himself. IOWs self-determination, freedom, is prerequisite to rationality.Origenes
October 4, 2022
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Relatd @301, 302,
If your boy was being told lies by a neighbor and repeated them, what would you do?
Point taken. In my case, it would be lies told them by college professors.
“Could I pay in equivalent weight in Spam?”
Haha! Yeah, pop psychology and philosophical spam. -QQuerius
October 4, 2022
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Not seen on Monty Python: Hello, Mister James? This is All Bill Collectors. You have several that are past due. [clears throat] “There is no self in, around, or as part of anyone’s body. There can’t be. So there really isn’t any enduring self that ever could wake up morning after morning worrying about why it should bother getting out of bed." I see. In any case, we expect payment immediately. Will you be sending a cheque? If not I can take your credit card information over the phone. "Do you accept Bitcoin?" No, we do not. "Can I put the wife on?" I'd rather you didn't. "Could I pay in equivalent weight in Spam?" No. I'm afraid not. "Can I pay in person?" We, uh, have no offices. I am working remotely from home. [silence] Hello? Hello? Sigh, another one...relatd
October 4, 2022
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Querius at 300, By filling up post after post after post, the troll hopes that others will forget any objections and buy into the NONSENSE I mentioned earlier. If your boy was being told lies by a neighbor and repeated them, what would you do?relatd
October 4, 2022
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Relatd @299,
As far as “feeding the trolls,” there needs to be a response in some cases.
If it's a persistent TROLL, then why bother? One can predict that the comment is disingenuous. But, I guess I'll concede partly to your point: to give one reasonable answer and not to follow up on the inevitable abuse. In some cases, it might be helpful for others to see a correction of any misperceptions, which of course will be rejected by the troll. What do you think? -QQuerius
October 4, 2022
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Origenes at 289, that was pretty neat. I even tucked it away for future reference for the next time a Darwinian atheist claims that his conscious experience is merely a neuronal illusion.
The Confidence of Jerry Coyne – Ross Douthat – January 6, 2014 Excerpt: But then halfway through this peroration, we have as an aside the confession (by Coyne) that yes, okay, it’s quite possible given materialist premises that “our sense of self is a neuronal illusion.” At which point the entire edifice suddenly looks terribly wobbly — because who, exactly, is doing all of this forging and shaping and purpose-creating if Jerry Coyne, as I understand him (and I assume he understands himself) quite possibly does not actually exist at all? The theme of his argument is the crucial importance of human agency under eliminative materialism, but if under materialist premises the actual agent is quite possibly a fiction, then who exactly is this I who “reads” and “learns” and “teaches,” and why in the universe’s name should my illusory self believe Coyne’s bold proclamation that his illusory self’s purposes are somehow “real” and worthy of devotion and pursuit? (Let alone that they’re morally significant: But more on that below.) Prometheus cannot be at once unbound and unreal; the human will cannot be simultaneously triumphant and imaginary. https://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/01/06/the-confidence-of-jerry-coyne/?mcubz=3 Quote from Sam Harris (a Darwinian materialist): “The self is an illusion.” – Michael Egnor Demolishes the Myth of Materialism (Science Uprising EP1) https://youtu.be/Fv3c7DWuqpM?t=267 – Naturalism requires us to believe that our minds are an illusion. But, as neurosurgeon Michael Egnor says, “if your hypothesis is that the mind is an illusion, then you don’t have a hypothesis.” https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/hush-the-universe-is-learning/ "There is no self in, around, or as part of anyone’s body. There can’t be. So there really isn’t any enduring self that ever could wake up morning after morning worrying about why it should bother getting out of bed. The self is just another illusion, like the illusion that thought is about stuff or that we carry around plans and purposes that give meaning to what our body does. Every morning’s introspectively fantasized self is a new one, remarkably similar to the one that consciousness ceased fantasizing when we fell sleep sometime the night before. Whatever purpose yesterday’s self thought it contrived to set the alarm last night, today’s newly fictionalized self is not identical to yesterday’s. It’s on its own, having to deal with the whole problem of why to bother getting out of bed all over again.,,, - Alex Rosenberg - Professor of Philosophy Duke University - The Atheist’s Guide to Reality, ch.10 "The first thing to understand, I believe, is that there is no thing like “the self.” Nobody ever had or was a self. Selves are not part of reality. Selves are not something that endures over time. The first person pronoun “I” doesn’t refer to an object like a football or a bicycle, it just points to the speaker of the current sentence. There is no thing in the brain or outside in the world, which is us. We are processes… the self is not a thing but a process." - Thomas Metzinger is a German philosopher. As of 2011 he holds the position of director of the theoretical philosophy group at the department of philosophy at the Johannes Gutenberg University of Mainz “that “You”, your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll’s Alice might have phrased: “You’re nothing but a pack of neurons.” This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing.” Francis Crick – “The Astonishing Hypothesis” 1994 At the 23:33 minute mark of the following video, Richard Dawkins agrees with materialistic philosophers who say that: “consciousness is an illusion” A few minutes later Rowan Williams asks Dawkins ”If consciousness is an illusion…what isn’t?”. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWN4cfh1Fac&t=22m57s
bornagain77
October 4, 2022
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Querius at 297, I have to wonder if this is a case of: "What do you want to do today?" I know, let's rattle a few cages at UD for sport. And so it goes. The internet is an open microphone, anyone can use it for good or ill. As far as "feeding the trolls," there needs to be a response in some cases. Otherwise the trolls can lead others down the path to uh... NONSENSE. Don't want that either.relatd
October 4, 2022
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Relatd @296, From reading the previous comments, the following proverb comes to mind:
A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion. -Proverbs 18:2 ESV
This has been made abundantly clear! The trolls start out with "innocent questions" and "unanswerable challenges" but only read the responses (if they even do that) to try to find a rebuttal, make vacuous assertions or level ad hominem attacks. They're here only to shout "squirrel" at a dog show. You can spot them when they get completely off topic and then laugh at all the time they were able to waste by diverting attention from the OP. Let me ask, which of them brought out any examples of infinities and how these interact with cosmology? That's why virtually all our conversations here are diverted to the same hopeless babble. Again . . .
A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion. -Proverbs 18:2 ESV
Please don't feed the trolls. -QQuerius
October 4, 2022
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Ba77, To become your own god and arbiter of all that is true - to you - is what is being preached here. What I find stupid is the crazy "agree to disagree" idea. Unilateral disagreement is like unilateral disarmament, it doesn't work. So, the trolls come here to promote their viewpoints, present some ideas, and think that maybe some will listen. But I'm not seeing any ideas that are worth considering. This is just an exercise that ends in futility. 2 Timothy 3:7 "always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth."relatd
October 4, 2022
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makes me sad to see some of the responses here
Has to be one of the most phony statements ever.jerry
October 4, 2022
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Anyway, there are plenty of Atheists who have chosen to change their beliefs and become Christians and vice-versa. Acts of the will. Andrewasauber
October 4, 2022
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And I suspect that one of the reasons you dumb Atheists are here is to help maintain your Atheism. You can comment and see Atheism's superiority over all things in glorious display and feel better about it. You're really not fooling anyone but yourselves. Andrewasauber
October 4, 2022
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Why do people go on diets? Because they chose to change their beliefs about how they should eat. Andrewasauber
October 4, 2022
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This is beating a stale horse, but you can choose to maintain, discontinue, or question beliefs and desires. based on new information, You can choose to re-rank them in priority. Any and all of them. Beliefs and desires shift, disappear, reappear, mutate, and evolve because people choose to change them. Andrewasauber
October 4, 2022
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I find it to annoying to deal with the residents here who just respond emotionally to anything they don’t agree with (or more often than not, can’t get their heads around).
Perfect description of the anti ID person. Strategy of the anti ID person: find anything that will make a pro ID person look bad. Even if it’s just the failure to dot “i’s” or cross “t’s”. By all means never deal with substance or you will lose every time. Ignore anything that will make you look bad or a pro ID person look good. Aside: pro ID people here cooperate by providing lots of things that have nothing to do with ID that are often excessive even if within reason.jerry
October 4, 2022
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//On absolute vs proximate responsibility/freedom // I choose to hold that “I” exist —— to be clear, with “I” I refer to my consciousness, my viewpoint. I am the only one who has access to my “I”, put another way: no one but me can possibly have an informed opinion on this particular subject, therefor whatever I choose to believe about my “I” can only be my absolute responsibility, can only be the result of my fully self-determined choice. - - - - - - (1.) I do something. (2.) A thing that does not exist cannot do something —— from nothing nothing comes. From (1.) and (2.) (3.) I existOrigenes
October 4, 2022
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TimR, TimR defends the insanity of 'Many Worlds' here, https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/granville-sewell-on-origin-of-life-as-a-provably-unsolvable-problem/#comment-731350bornagain77
October 3, 2022
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That's brilliant Vivid. Yes let the storm just pass haha. One of my favorite adages is, "We are all victims of victims".dogdoc
October 3, 2022
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DD “But we would already need to have our beliefs and desires in order to freely choose new beliefs and desires, and this begins an infinite regress of choices that you could not possibly have initiated.” Well this is going to cause a firestorm from some of my friends but the desire part is quite Biblical “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.” Psa 51:5 Augustine’s non posse non peccare. I am going to duck, cover and shelter in place now LOL Vividvividbleau
October 3, 2022
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Good question. I'm enjoying this conversation a lot, as these are ideas I am developing (or at least developing an articulation of) in response to your and Vivid's posts. I look forward to thinking about this tomorrow afternoon when I'm back home with some time..Viola Lee
October 3, 2022
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Viola, Your critique of my argument is interesting, I would like to think about it. Is there some discernible difference between the evil neuroscientist's influence and one that you've incorporated from, say, your peer group, that renders the former an override of your freedom, while the latter just becomes part of you? (referring to @273)dogdoc
October 3, 2022
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"It makes me sad" You have no clue what true sadness is yet.bornagain77
October 3, 2022
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