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Cocktails! falsifying Darwinism via falsifying the geological “column”

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There is the forgotten book Shattering the Myths of Darwinism written by a non-creationist agnostic Richard Milton. Milton expressed his skepticism of mainstream claims of the old-age of the fossil record. His work further motivated me toward the idea that there could an empirically driven critique of the accepted ages of the fossils.

This is a short bio of Milton:

Richard Milton is a science journalist and design engineer based in London. He is a member of Mensa, the international high-IQ society, and writes a column for Mensa Magazine. He has been a member of the Geologists’ Association for twenty years, and did extensive geological research for this book. He has been featured on the BBC, NBC, and other television networks.

Like the agnostic Denton, Milton seems to draw much admiration from creationists.

The fact Milton was an agnostic suggested to me that considerations of facts and following the evidence wherever it leads might lead one to a different conclusion than the accepted mainstream view of fossil ages. One does not have to begin with the premise of YEC to conclude that the claims of the old ages of fossils have serious empirical difficulties.

But what about radiometric dating? That serious issue will be covered in another post, but suffice to say, on evidential grounds alone, it seems there are serious unresolved conflicts. If physics and chemistry are invoked to defend the old ages of fossils, physics and chemistry can also be invoked to falsify it. Neither side, creationist or evolutionist, has a conflict-free model of history. But that is not to say that one side might not prevail on empirical grounds eventually in the light of future scientific discoveries.

My aim then is not to argue that the accepted mainstream model of the history of life is definitely wrong, but rather it can’t be definitely right given what we already know. Skepticism is in order, and thankfully it doesn’t stop there, skepticism might lead to novel, innovative research to settle the conflicts.

We have the conceptual notion of a geological “column”. The idea is that if you dig a hole, you are essentially traversing down a conceptual column that provides a recorded history of life. Conceptually this is depicted in the following image:

geological column

In such a column, older fossils are buried beneath younger fossils. Even supposing this is a reasonable interpretation, it does not immediately affix the ages of the fossils. One fossil may be older than another, but it doesn’t immediately tell us that the oldest fossils are 500 million years old! So for the sake of argument, let us assume that on average deeper means older, what can we say about the oldest layer based on empirical considerations?

When I asked a geologist common sense questions about the process of fossilization, he threw a fit. I asked “how are fossils fossilized?” I pointed out if you leave a dead organism out in the open it decomposes or is eaten by scavengers. So really good fossilization can’t happen by ordinary processes but rather by catastrophic process such as rapid burial, and often a burial that involves water. He threw a fit at the suggestion but reluctantly conceded that to get really good fossils, one needs water and rapid burial. He didn’t like where the discussion seemed to be headed. 🙂

Here are the boring considerations. Suppose we have intact geological column which can be found in one location such that you get to dig and find fossils in the order prescribed by the diagram above (and there are some who argue there is no such place on Earth, only in the conceptual imaginations of paleontologists). Suppose we give a generous height to this column of 200 miles spanning a history of 500 million years, what would be the average rate of deposition (accumulation of sediments on top of each other). I calculated that it would be .667 millimeters a year.

The geologist then fumed at my figure of a 200-mile deep geological column and argued it could be less than that. Of course, he didn’t realize he actually strengthened my argument. So I said, “fine, 14 miles, since that’s the farthest man has ever drilled into the Earth, that yields a deposition rate of .046 millimeters a year,” which is about half the thickness of a sheet of paper. That would mean a dinosaur that is lying 5 meters high will take about 100,000 years to bury, and thus it becomes very doubtful that it will fossilize because it is exposed to scavengers and decomposition and other environmental effects.

From Darwin-loving pages of Wiki we read:

Fossilization processes proceed differently according to tissue type and external conditions.

Permineralization is a process of fossilization that occurs when an organism is buried. The empty spaces within an organism (spaces filled with liquid or gas during life) become filled with mineral-rich groundwater. Minerals precipitate from the groundwater, occupying the empty spaces. This process can occur in very small spaces, such as within the cell wall of a plant cell. Small scale permineralization can produce very detailed fossils. For permineralization to occur, the organism must become covered by sediment soon after death or soon after the initial decay process. The degree to which the remains are decayed when covered determines the later details of the fossil. Some fossils consist only of skeletal remains or teeth; other fossils contain traces of skin, feathers or even soft tissues.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil

What? The organism needs to buried with sediments and water quickly. Of note, many layers of the geological “column” indicated mass extinction events, such that it could also be interpreted to be rapid simultaneous burial over large geographical regions by water and sediments, if not rapid simultaneous burial over the entire globe! But whatever the details, the fact remains that large sections of the geological column that contain fossils, could not, even in principle be assembled over millions of years. At best we have one catastrophe that creates a bed of fossils followed by a long era of stasis (no activity) and then followed another catastrophe, etc.

The geologist fumed, and said something to the effect, “You’re analysis is silly. Deposition doesn’t happen at steady rates like you imply.” Of course he was fuming so badly, he didn’t realize he was making my point, namely most of the fossil rich geological column didn’t take hundreds of millions of years to form. 🙂 Steady deposition could not have created the fossil record even in principle and even as Darwin and Lyell supposed. At best we have layers created by catastrophes, and then long periods of stasis in between. The bottom line is, the formation of most of the fossil layers of “column” could not have taken place over millions of years even in principle. We have to imagine the long periods of stasis are actually represented, because the fossil layers themselves must have formed in a few years if not a few minutes!

For the Darwinian story to hold, one has to fortuitously interleave highly fotuitous catastrophes followed by long eras of stasis and do this for each of the layers.

Recording of geological history via a process of slow, steady change is represented by a school of thought known as uniformitarianism (founded by Lyell). In contrast, recording of geological history by a process of catastrophes is known as catastrophism. The recording process for the fossil layers based on the considerations above, is then mostly the product of catastrophes. This catastrophist school of thought was highly anti-Darwinian:

Lyell encapsulated his philosophy in a doctrine later called “uniformitarianism”—a complex set of beliefs centered on the catechism that “the present is the key to the past.”….Lyell viewed this principle as a methodological reform to eliminate fanciful (and quasi-theological) “catastrophic” causes and to render the full magnitude of past change by the slow and steady accumulation of ordinary small changes (deposition and erosion grain by grain) extended over vast times.

And yet, from two different standpoints (theoretical and empirical), Lyell’s credo makes little sense, and its status as dogma can only reflect our social and psychological preferences. First, what is the probability that our tiny slice of observable time should include the full range of potential processes that might alter the earth? What about big, but perfectly natural, events that occur so infrequently that we have only a remote chance of observing even one occurrence in historical time? Second, how can Lyellian gradualism account for the fundamental fact of paleontology–extensive, and appparently rapid, faunal turnovers (“mass extinctions”) occurring several times in the history of life? (Traditional explanations over at least a few million years and attributing them to over intensification of ordinary causes–changes in temperature and sea level, for example–but the arguments have always seemed forced.)

Yet, until recently, extinction received much less attention than its obvious prominence warranted. In an overly Darwinian world of adaptation, gradual change, and improvement, extinction seemed, well, so negative–the ultimate failure, the flip side of evolution’s “real” work, something to be acknowledge but not intensely discussed in polite company.

This odd neglect has been reversed in the last decade…the primary architect of this shift is my brilliant colleague David M. Raup….Dave Raup is the best of the best.

Stephen J. Gould
Bad Genes or Bad Luck by David Raup

Amen brother Gould!

But that is not the end of problems, only the beginning. We have the paradoxical situation where the fossil record accumulates, but then this must happen against the contrary forces of erosion. Thus, the fossil record must:
1. fortuitously form one fossil layer via a fortuitous catastrophe
2. have that layer separated from the layer above it by a long era of stasis (no activity)
3. then another fortuitous catastrophe creates the next layer
4. etc.

All this must happen while miraculously avoiding the problem of erosion. This leads to a mechanical contradiction. Is this contradiction resolved? No, just obfuscated away and swept under the rug and defended by ridicule of those who would dare to ask common sense questions.

Ariel Roth of Geoscience Research points out that reasonable estimates of erosion rates of 6 centimeters/1000 year would wipe out not only the geological “column” but even the continents above sea level in short order.

By noting the rates at which the surfaces of the continents are eroded and carried away by rivers to the oceans (see section 2 for specific values), one can calculate the length of time required to remove a given thickness of the continents. Judson and Ritter (1964) have estimated that for the United States the rate of erosion averages 6.1 cm/1000 years. At this rate of denudation the continents, which average 623 m above sea level, would be eroded to sea level in a mere 10.2 Ma [million years]
….
It has been suggested that mountains still exist because they are constantly being renewed by uplift from below. However, this process of uplift could not go through even one complete cycle of erosion and uplift without eradicating the layers of the geologic column found in them. Present erosion rates would tend to rapidly eradicate evidence of older sediments; yet these sediments are still very well-represented, both in mountains and elsewhere.
….
There is little question that there is some difficulty in reconciling present erosion rates with standard geochronology.

On top of that, why aren’t the oceans saturated solutions of salt and minerals? If rain has been pouring on land and pumping salt and other minerals into the oceans, why aren’t they saturated? That complication may be resolvable, but one does not get the feeling the questions are even welcome, much less attempts at resolution.

When I’ve asked geologists, PandasThumbsters about these difficulties, I get just get rude rebuffs. I think to myself, “if not for my sake, won’t they want to answer these questions for the sake of curious aspiring Darwinists?”. Maybe they won’t answer these questions because they have none.

NOTES:
1. The title contains the word: “Cocktail” to emphasize the speculative, informal nature of this essay. I elaborate more about the relevance of such topics to ID in The relevance of YEC to ID

2. here is the link to Ariel Roth’s paper:
http://www.grisda.org/origins/13064.htm

and a long excerpt

By noting the rates at which the surfaces of the continents are eroded and carried away by rivers to the oceans (see section 2 for specific values), one can calculate the length of time required to remove a given thickness of the continents. Judson and Ritter (1964) have estimated that for the United States the rate of erosion averages 6.1 cm/1000 years. At this rate of denudation the continents, which average 623 m above sea level, would be eroded to sea level in a mere 10.2 Ma. In other words, at this rate the present continents would be eroded over 340 times in the 3500 Ma assumed for the age of the continents. The observation by the famous geologist Powell that “mountains cannot long remain mountains” certainly seems appropriate. The estimate of 10 Ma given above has been a well-accepted figure (Schumm 1963) and has subsequently been referred to in a number of publications including Dott and Batten (1971, p. 136) and Garrels and Mackenzie (1971, pp. 114-115). Earlier, Dole and Stabler (1909) gave figures indicating that it would take about twice as long. Judson (1968), while correcting for human activity, suggests 34 Ma for complete erosion of the continents. None of these figures does much to alleviate the discrepancy which is especially significant when one considers mountain ranges such as the Caledonides of western Europe and the Appalachians of North America which are assumed to be several hundred Ma old. Why are these ranges here today if they are so old?
Rates of erosion are greater in high mountains and lower in regions of less relief (Ahnert 1970, Bloom 1971, Ruxton and McDougall 1967, and Schumm 1963). Ruxton and McDougall (1967) report erosion rates of 8 cm/1000 years near sea level and 52 cm/1000 years at an altitude of 975 m in the Hydrographers Range in Papua. Rates of 92 cm/1000 years are reported for the Guatemala-Mexico Border Mountains (Corbel 1959), 100 cm/1000 years for the Himalayas (Menard 1961), and in the Mt. Rainier region of Washington Mills (1976) documents erosion rates of up to 800 cm/1000 years. Probably the highest recorded regional rate is 1900 cm/1000 years from a volcano in New Guinea (Ollier and Brown 1971).
It has been suggested that mountains still exist because they are constantly being renewed by uplift from below. However, this process of uplift could not go through even one complete cycle of erosion and uplift without eradicating the layers of the geologic column found in them. Present erosion rates would tend to rapidly eradicate evidence of older sediments; yet these sediments are still very well-represented, both in mountains and elsewhere.
Other attempts to reconcile average present erosion rates to geologic time include suggestions that man’s activities, especially agricultural practices, have increased the rate of erosion, making present rates uncharacteristically rapid. Such an explanation seems inadequate to account for a several hundred-fold discrepancy. Gilluly et al. (1968, p. 79) propose that farming may have increased average erosion rates by a factor of less than 2, while Judson (1968) suggests about 2½ times. Others have suggested that the climate of the past may have been more dry or the relief flatter, resulting in slower erosion rates. We now have some interior basins such as central Australia where there is no drainage and no removal of sediment, but these are exceptions. The lush vegetation evident in significant sections of the fossil record suggests at least some wetter conditions in the past. Characteristically, current erosion rates in hot, dry lowlands with gradients 0.001 or less, are not sufficiently slower. Corbel (1959) indicates rates of 1.2 cm/1000 years for the hot dry plains of the Mediterranean region and New Mexico. The lowest rates found in a study of 20 river basins (Ahnert 1970) was 1.6 cm/1000 years for basins in Texas and England. These slower rates do not solve a discrepancy of several hundred-fold, and one would have to postulate different past conditions for a major area of the earth during a significant proportion of earth history to provide a resolution to the problem.
A different context can serve to emphasize the question of rates of erosion. If it is assumed that 2.5 km of continents have been eroded in the past (our present continents average about one fourth that thickness above sea level) and if it is assumed that erosion proceeds at the rate of 3 cm/1000 years (half of the presently observed rate to correct for the effects of modern agricultural pursuits), then it would take about 83 Ma to erode a 2.5 km thickness of continental crust. In other words, at present rates of erosion, continents 2.5 km thick could have been eroded 42 times during the assumed 3500 Ma age for the continents, or continents 106 km thick would have been eroded once. There is little question that there is some difficulty in reconciling present erosion rates with standard geochronology.

Comments
JLAfan2001 @ 53
Thanks for the cite from a mainstream science page. However, if the DNA shows 95, or 97 or 98 or 99% similarity, the fact still remains that they are our closest living relatives. This would be overturned with 70% but that hasn’t been found except by Answers in Genesis which is dubious.
More accurately, from that, the only actual fact would be that chimps had the most simiilar DNA known. It would still not indicate that it is a fact that they were living relatives.
This tells me that you are already thinking of way to reject the test results should they not favor your expectations. Earlier you were happy that science was possibly pointing away form the 99% similarity and now you are saying that it would pose more of a problem for evolution than creation. This is why creationism isn’t taken seriously. It holds to hard to it’s beliefs rather than letting them go and it’s what makes them look dishonest.
What you think it tells you is a mistake then. I'm not trying to mold any outcome to fit my view. It really has little effect on the falsity or not of ID or creation. I held this notion long ago. I don't see similarity as a measure of how probable chimps are as relatives. For me, it's more about two things: (1) How can differences be accounted for chimps and humans given the measured differences. (2) How could evolution account for the amount of differences in the given timeline since the supposed most recent common ancestor. There's no change of position. I can show you prior arguments against overly high similarity would be a problem. Any joy in seeing the similarity potentially reduced to 70% in published literature is explainable by the fact that it will mortally harm Darwinism (the bane of society) in an unavoidable way. Well, unavoidable to the numerate at least. That said, you did cause me reconsider something. An overly high similarity (e.g. 99.7%) would actually be a problem for anyone trying to reconcile the chimp/human differences using purely genetics. So, some Darwinists could slip by less than scathed in the public eye. However, the persons that would be most affect in some negative sense are specifically neo-Darwinists and anyone else that thinks DNA determines all development of an organism.JGuy
May 30, 2013
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Although mtEve’s date based on observed (not inferred by phylogeny) mutation rates of mtDNA seems to square quite well with YEC predictions, I can’t see a way to do the same with Y-Adam. I discuss the problems without a solution on reddit here.
That may change with the deep pedigree study where we retrieved DNA from a tomb 24 generations back. I linked to it in the Felsenstein thread. We have a definite mutation rate with the deep pedigree study.scordova
May 30, 2013
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Charlie chokes!:
Try reading a general biology book, that will get you the basics of the theory, if you understood any of it then may I suggest you open a book more specialized in evolutionary biology.
I have read several. A scientific theory should be found in a peer-reviewed journal. That's how Einstein did it. Alan Fox suggested that I read several popular books, textbooks, essays, etc and formulate it myself from those texts. So perhaps you can tell me what predictions are borne from unguided evolution- what are the testable hypotheses- tell us Charlie. And please do not be vague and say evolution this and evolution that, ID is not anti-evolution. Even YEC's baraminology accepts speciation. Ya see Charlie, I have read all those books and all we have is some vague descent with modification, void of specifics as to what gets modified. And evos thinks that DNA is some sort of magical molecule responsible for all of the "endless forms, most beautiful", yet that hasn't panned out. Oops. So really, where is this alleged theory? Or are you just like really sure that it exists?Joe
May 30, 2013
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To All, The thread is now open to all topics, I think we hashed through the original point well enough for now. It's been a pleasure. Just keep it civil and family friendly. Salscordova
May 30, 2013
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Although mtEve's date based on observed (not inferred by phylogeny) mutation rates of mtDNA seems to square quite well with YEC predictions, I can't see a way to do the same with Y-Adam. I discuss the problems without a solution on reddit here. I'm cautious about accepting Thompkin's 70% similarity study because other YEC biologists such as Todd Wood oppose such low estimates. Ironically, Wood and Thompkins used to be colleagues, so I expect Wood is familiar with Thomkins work--although he hasn't yet commented on the recent paper.
I'm still crunching the numbers right now, but my preliminary estimate is that around 25.3 Mb of chimp DNA truly has no similar match in the sequenced human genome. That's about 0.84% of the length of the human genome. As I said, these are preliminary numbers, but I have every reason to expect that they will hold as I continue to process the data. So Rana's interpretation of the chimp genome is wrong. The "unaligned" chimp DNA is not too different; it's too similar. And the parts of the chimp genome that don't align because there is no corresponding sequencing in the human genome are just a tiny fraction of the length of the human genome.
JLAfan2001 @50 Creationists are often blacklisted from mainstream journals simply for being creationists. For example Marcus Ross as quoted in Scientific American: "I have had chapters of my (decidedly conventional) dissertation rejected from journals and special publications for no other reason than the fact that I am a creationist, sometimes in very explicit terms.". By conventional he means taking an unquestionably evolutionary perspective. Or Todd Wood (mentioned above)'s response to critic Phil Senter was "declined without review by 4 different journals". Without Review. On his blog, Todd Wood tends to argue more against creationist points than for them. He's the most cautious and reserved scientist I know of.JoeCoder
May 30, 2013
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And youd be completely wrong to say that number 2 and 3 describe me. You guys have no clue what you are talking about. You should look into getting a decent science education before you try to talk about it.CharlieD
May 30, 2013
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CharlieD, you do understand what "ad hominem" means, right?Barb
May 30, 2013
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Hmm, my standardized test scores, GPA, etc all say different. Try reading a general biology book, that will get you the basics of the theory, if you understood any of it then may I suggest you open a book more specialized in evolutionary biology. You can read right?CharlieD
May 30, 2013
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CharlieD:
Good one guys. Cmon, Im not that stupid. You both have no idea what you are talking about.
Again, we see the logical fallacy of ad hominem. You state that you’re not that stupid, which I’m willing to believe, but you rely a lot on faulty thinking. That is unintelligent.
You talk about the current theory of evolution and next thing ya know you’re trying to prove that modern science is a product of religion? Get real.
Modern science isn’t a product of religion. But evolution and its controversies arises almost religious zeal in people from both sides. Evolution is used as more than a scientific theory (social Darwinism, anyone?); it’s a worldview that states that God is irrelevant.
Yeah everybody back then was religious, you didnt have much of a choice. Science eventually outgrew the blind faith of religion and started questioning things.
You do know that atheists have always existed, right? In fact, ironically, the early Christians were viewed as atheists because they only worshiped one God. Science does question things, and that’s good. You do know that many of the greatest scientists in the world were religious, right? Newton, Galileo, Copernicus, Mendelev, etc. You do realize that belief in God does not preclude one from practicing science, right? You are also falling victim to the logical fallacy of hasty generalization.
This is where science branches from religion; it does not blindly accept what others present, it does not fit facts to theories like you guys do. Science fits theories to facts.
Not all religions require blind faith. You are now using the logical fallacy of hasty generalization again. You obviously have no knowledge of all religions. You have no evidence to show that all religious people believe according to blind faith. The Bible itself condemns blind faith.
Science is my god? No I dont worship science, I study it and think for myself. You should try it sometime.
Ad hominem. I probably do more critical thinking that you give me credit for. And yes, you have made science your god. Look at its definition: Definition of GOD 1 capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: as a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe b Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind 2 : a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship;specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality 3 : a person or thing of supreme value 4 : a powerful ruler I’d say that #2 and 3 describe you pretty well.Barb
May 30, 2013
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Cmon, Im not that stupid.
Yes, you are very stupid. Can you point us to the alleged currect theory of evolution? Provide a link, perhaps?Joe
May 30, 2013
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I predict that they will find human and chimpanzee DNA will remain as close as ever when they are done the new comparisons confirming 150 years of rigorous study. I also predict that IDists and creationists will try to spin the results to match their ideology and tell their followers that the Darwinists were trying to deceive the public.
There is no question that chimps and other primates are closely related to humans, that was evident even to creationists and that's why the creationist Linnaeus placed humans along with primates in his taxonomical grouping. At issue is the number of changes that have to take place, not the percentage. Say we have to account for 27,000,000 changes. How long will that take? But if the geological column is false and represents far shorter time scales, all the claims of Darwinism are moot. One does not have to invoke a Young Earth to see the geological "column" could be young. Thanks for you comments.scordova
May 30, 2013
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Good one guys. Cmon, Im not that stupid. You both have no idea what you are talking about. You talk about the current theory of evolution and next thing ya know you're trying to prove that modern science is a product of religion? Get real. Yeah everybody back then was religious, you didnt have much of a choice. Science eventually outgrew the blind faith of religion and started questioning things. This is where science branches from religion; it does not blindly accept what others present, it does not fit facts to theories like you guys do. Science fits theories to facts. Science is my god? No I dont worship science, I study it and think for myself. You should try it sometime.CharlieD
May 30, 2013
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CharlieD:
have outgrown the blind belief that religion pushes on its followers and I have found science to be a much more wonderful world than that of religion.
So you've made science your god.Barb
May 30, 2013
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Well CharlieD if you truly love science then you should reject the pseudo-science of Darwinism since it undermines the scientific worldview (Plantinga): notes: Founders of Modern Science Who Believe in GOD - Tihomir Dimitrov http://www.scigod.com/index.php/sgj/article/viewFile/18/18 50 Nobel Laureates and other great scientists who believed in God by Tihomir Dimitrov http://www.nobelists.net/ The following is a good essay, by Robert C. Koons, in which the popular misconception of a war between science and religion, that neo-Darwinists often use in public to defend their, ironically, pseudo-scientific position, is in fact a gross misrepresentation of the facts. For not only does Robert Koons find Theism, particularly Chistian Theism, absolutely vital to the founding of modern science, but also argues that the Theistic worldview is necessary for the long term continued success of science into the future: Science and Theism: Concord, not Conflict* – Robert C. Koons IV. The Dependency of Science Upon Theism (Page 21) Excerpt: Far from undermining the credibility of theism, the remarkable success of science in modern times is a remarkable confirmation of the truth of theism. It was from the perspective of Judeo-Christian theism—and from the perspective alone—that it was predictable that science would have succeeded as it has. Without the faith in the rational intelligibility of the world and the divine vocation of human beings to master it, modern science would never have been possible, and, even today, the continued rationality of the enterprise of science depends on convictions that can be reasonably grounded only in theistic metaphysics. http://www.robkoons.net/media/69b0dd04a9d2fc6dffff80b3ffffd524.pdf The Origin of Science Jaki writes: Herein lies the tremendous difference between Christian monotheism on the one hand and Jewish and Muslim monotheism on the other. This explains also the fact that it is almost natural for a Jewish or Muslim intellectual to become a patheist. About the former Spinoza and Einstein are well-known examples. As to the Muslims, it should be enough to think of the Averroists. With this in mind one can also hope to understand why the Muslims, who for five hundred years had studied Aristotle's works and produced many commentaries on them failed to make a breakthrough. The latter came in medieval Christian context and just about within a hundred years from the availability of Aristotle's works in Latin.. As we will see below, the break-through that began science was a Christian commentary on Aristotle's De Caelo (On the Heavens).,, Modern experimental science was rendered possible, Jaki has shown, as a result of the Christian philosophical atmosphere of the Middle Ages. Although a talent for science was certainly present in the ancient world (for example in the design and construction of the Egyptian pyramids), nevertheless the philosophical and psychological climate was hostile to a self-sustaining scientific process. Thus science suffered still-births in the cultures of ancient China, India, Egypt and Babylonia. It also failed to come to fruition among the Maya, Incas and Aztecs of the Americas. Even though ancient Greece came closer to achieving a continuous scientific enterprise than any other ancient culture, science was not born there either. Science did not come to birth among the medieval Muslim heirs to Aristotle. …. The psychological climate of such ancient cultures, with their belief that the universe was infinite and time an endless repetition of historical cycles, was often either hopelessness or complacency (hardly what is needed to spur and sustain scientific progress); and in either case there was a failure to arrive at a belief in the existence of God the Creator and of creation itself as therefore rational and intelligible. Thus their inability to produce a self-sustaining scientific enterprise. If science suffered only stillbirths in ancient cultures, how did it come to its unique viable birth? The beginning of science as a fully fledged enterprise took place in relation to two important definitions of the Magisterium of the Church. The first was the definition at the Fourth Lateran Council in the year 1215, that the universe was created out of nothing at the beginning of time. The second magisterial statement was at the local level, enunciated by Bishop Stephen Tempier of Paris who, on March 7, 1277, condemned 219 Aristotelian propositions, so outlawing the deterministic and necessitarian views of creation. These statements of the teaching authority of the Church expressed an atmosphere in which faith in God had penetrated the medieval culture and given rise to philosophical consequences. The cosmos was seen as contingent in its existence and thus dependent on a divine choice which called it into being; the universe is also contingent in its nature and so God was free to create this particular form of world among an infinity of other possibilities. Thus the cosmos cannot be a necessary form of existence; and so it has to be approached by a posteriori investigation. The universe is also rational and so a coherent discourse can be made about it. Indeed the contingency and rationality of the cosmos are like two pillars supporting the Christian vision of the cosmos. http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/a/science_origin.html Christ and Science - Stanley L. Jaki http://www.realviewbooks.com/catalogb.html#chriscie The Blackwell Companion to Science and Christianity - book http://books.google.com/books?id=qqGRqJT4aNQC&pg=PA3&lpg=PA3&dq#v=onepage&q&f=false Christianity Is a Science-Starter, Not a Science-Stopper By Nancy Pearcey http://www.pearceyreport.com/archives/2005/09/post_4.php Bruce Charlton's Miscellany - October 2011 Excerpt: I had discovered that over the same period of the twentieth century that the US had risen to scientific eminence it had undergone a significant Christian revival. ,,,The point I put to (Richard) Dawkins was that the USA was simultaneously by-far the most dominant scientific nation in the world (I knew this from various scientometic studies I was doing at the time) and by-far the most religious (Christian) nation in the world. How, I asked, could this be - if Christianity was culturally inimical to science? http://charltonteaching.blogspot.com/2011/10/meeting-richard-dawkins-and-his-wife.htmlbornagain77
May 30, 2013
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I dont hate anybody, in fact I was raised a Christian and I still go to church every so often with my family. I have outgrown the blind belief that religion pushes on its followers and have found science to be a much more wonderful world than that of religion.CharlieD
May 30, 2013
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JLAfan2001, "you accuse me of hatred against all Christians." So you only hate 'some' Christians? Sorry if I misread you, the majority of times, as with CharlieD right now, I'm dealing with people who hate all Christians not just some Christians. So NDE's can be 'natural' in your book? Man I sure wish you Darwinists would at least stay consistent on what you consider 'natural'. :) ,,, Can God be considered natural too?bornagain77
May 30, 2013
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BA77 I don't hate Christians. In fact, I haven't completely left my faith but this makes my point. I was making a case for similar DNA and against Christians who reject it outright for their faith and you accuse me of hatred against all Christians. This is the very thing that you have rallied against Darwinists for. Also, maybe there is an afterlife. I certainly hope there is and there is evidence to support it. However, one can be an atheist and still believe NDEs happen. Perhaps there is a natural reason for ti that science hasn't investigated because of it's roots in religion. Jguy Thanks for the cite from a mainstream science page. However, if the DNA shows 95, or 97 or 98 or 99% similarity, the fact still remains that they are our closest living relatives. This would be overturned with 70% but that hasn't been found except by Answers in Genesis which is dubious. "In my opinion, the percentage difference between human and chimp would have little to no negative bearing on ID or creation as models. In contrast, the percentage will affect Darwinism at least some, and very possibly greatly. Some, in the sense that a nearly identical genome would be arguably a more enigmatic problem than one that remained in the public eye at the 97%-98% mark, because explaining all the morphological & behavioral differences in humans and chimps with less – if say 99.7% similar – would be more difficult… On the other end of the spectrum, Darwinism could not handle a 70% difference." This tells me that you are already thinking of way to reject the test results should they not favor your expectations. Earlier you were happy that science was possibly pointing away form the 99% similarity and now you are saying that it would pose more of a problem for evolution than creation. This is why creationism isn't taken seriously. It holds to hard to it's beliefs rather than letting them go and it's what makes them look dishonest.JLAfan2001
May 30, 2013
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JLAfan2001 @ 48
I predict that they will find human and chimpanzee DNA will remain as close as ever when they are done the new comparisons confirming 150 years of rigorous study. I also predict that IDists and creationists will try to spin the results to match their ideology and tell their followers that the Darwinists were trying to deceive the public.
The 'closer than ever' prediction has already been challenged in the literature. If the chimp and human genomes were closer than ever (i.e. >99% similar) as discussed in the literature and media, then there wouldn't (or shouldn't) be any published results - by even evolutionists - that indicate anything less. However, that's not the case: http://www.pnas.org/content/99/21/13633.full BUT... I'd agree with you that if it were closer than ever reported. Then both camps would claim some kind of victory. In my opinion, the percentage difference between human and chimp would have little to no negative bearing on ID or creation as models. In contrast, the percentage will affect Darwinism at least some, and very possibly greatly. Some, in the sense that a nearly identical genome would be arguably a more enigmatic problem than one that remained in the public eye at the 97%-98% mark, because explaining all the morphological & behavioral differences in humans and chimps with less - if say 99.7% similar - would be more difficult... On the other end of the spectrum, Darwinism could not handle a 70% difference.JGuy
May 30, 2013
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So JLAfan2001, since 'real' scientists don't take creationist websites seriously are you still sticking to your 99% figure even though I listed a few sites from 'real' scientists that call that original 99% figure into severe doubt? Shoot even Jerry Coyne, who probably hates Christians more than you do, does not hold to the 99% figure any longer:
From Jerry Coyne, More Table-Pounding, Hand-Waving - May 2012 Excerpt: "More than 6 percent of genes found in humans simply aren't found in any form in chimpanzees. There are over fourteen hundred novel genes expressed in humans but not in chimps." Jerry Coyne - ardent and 'angry' neo-Darwinist - professor at the University of Chicago in the department of ecology and evolution for twenty years. He specializes in evolutionary genetics. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/05/from_jerry_coyn060271.html
JLAfan2001, It sure seems to be a highly dubious figure to bet your eternal soul on, especially given the relative merits of evidence for each position:
Dr. Jeffrey Long: Just how strong is the evidence for a afterlife? - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mptGAc3XWPs Facts about NDEs - video clip on the site Excerpt: In 1982 a Gallup poll estimated that 8 million Americans have had a near-death experience and a more resent study, a US News & World Report in March of 1997, found that 15 million have had the experience. http://www.ndelight.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=117&Itemid=63 Near-Death Experiences: Putting a Darwinist's Evidentiary Standards to the Test - Dr. Michael Egnor - October 15, 2012 Excerpt: Indeed, about 20 percent of NDE's are corroborated, which means that there are independent ways of checking about the veracity of the experience. The patients knew of things that they could not have known except by extraordinary perception -- such as describing details of surgery that they watched while their heart was stopped, etc. Additionally, many NDE's have a vividness and a sense of intense reality that one does not generally encounter in dreams or hallucinations.,,, The most "parsimonious" explanation -- the simplest scientific explanation -- is that the (Near Death) experience was real. Tens of millions of people have had such experiences. That is tens of millions of more times than we have observed the origin of species (or origin of life), which is never.,,, The materialist reaction, in short, is unscientific and close-minded. NDE's show fellows like Coyne at their sneering unscientific irrational worst. Somebody finds a crushed fragment of a fossil and it's earth-shaking evidence. Tens of million of people have life-changing spiritual experiences and it's all a big yawn. Note: Dr. Egnor is professor and vice-chairman of neurosurgery at the State University of New York at Stony Brook. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/10/near_death_expe_1065301.html "A recent analysis of several hundred cases showed that 48% of near-death experiencers reported seeing their physical bodies from a different visual perspective. Many of them also reported witnessing events going on in the vicinity of their body, such as the attempts of medical personnel to resuscitate them (Kelly et al., 2007)." Kelly, E. W., Greyson, B., & Kelly, E. F. (2007). Unusual experiences near death and related phenomena. In E. F. Kelly, E. W. Kelly, A. Crabtree, A. Gauld, M. Grosso, & B. Greyson, Irreducible mind (pp. 367-421). Lanham, MD: Rowman & Littlefield. Michaela's Amazing NEAR death experience - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLEmETQdMkg&feature=player_detailpage#t=629s Jerry Coyne, a Holy Warrior for Darwin - James Barham - April 20, 2012 Excerpt: Darwinists deny the objective existence of purpose, value, and meaning.,,,, (Yet) everyday human life as we experience it is saturated with purpose, value, and meaning. Therefore, to ordinary people -- as to most philosophers who have given the matter deep thought -- the reductionist claims of the Darwinists are absurd on their face. In fact, they are self-contradictory, and just plain silly. Every word that comes out of Jerry Coyne's mouth contradicts his official philosophy. Why? Because he presumably means something by what he says. Because he obviously values some things (Darwinism) and disvalues other things (religion). And because he manifestly has the purpose of convincing his readers that he is right and religious believers are wrong. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/04/jerry_coyne_a_h058811.html
I don't know JLAfan2001, but from my perspective, it sure seems certain that you are making a fools bet if you think that dubious 99% similarity figure disqualifies the fact that you have an eternal soul and that there is an afterlife. verse and music: Matthew 16:26 What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? One Thing Remains [Lyrics] - Kristian Stanfill http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYCJ8EvkGCsbornagain77
May 30, 2013
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BA77 A good portion of those cites were from creationists and IDists. Show me the cites from mainstream science that supports the same conclusion. If Tompkins really did find those results, why were they put forth by Answers In Genesis, a group that NO ONE takes seriously? He can single handedly over turn the human-chimp ancestry if they were published in Nature. Oh, that's right, mainstream science is out to disprove God and bury any evidence against evolution. Has it occurred to you that maybe the reason that Darwinism stands is because it produces the best results and not because of some anti-religion conspiracy? If the goal was to get rid of God using evolution, there wouldn't be any theistic evolutionists. Every Christian would be against it knowing that it's goals are to undermine faith. Instead they are viewed as traitors and compromisers rather than looking at the evidence. If the results produced by mainstream science come up the same, I will personally issue an apology to all at UD. In fact, I'm hoping that they find the same results but I doubt it. I can admit when I'm wrong. Can creationits and IDist do the same?JLAfan2001
May 30, 2013
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JLAfan2001 you state: "I predict that they will find human and chimpanzee DNA will remain as close as ever when they are done the new comparisons confirming 150 years of rigorous study." Would this be the 99% similarity figure you are betting your eternal soul on JLAfan2001? If so, I don't think this bet is going to work out well for you. Guy Walks Into a Bar and Thinks He’s a Chimpanzee: The Unbearable Lightness of Chimp-Human Genome Similarity – 2009 Excerpt: One can seriously call into question the statement that human and chimp genomes are 99% identical. For one thing, it has been noted in the literature that the exact degree of identity between the two genomes is as yet unknown (Cohen, J., 2007. Relative differences: The myth of 1% Science 316: 1836.). ,,, In short, the figure of identity that one wants to use is dependent on various methodological factors. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/05/guy_walks_into_a_bar_and_think.html Even ignoring the subjective bias of ‘various methodological factors’ that Darwinists introduce into these similarity studies, the first inkling, at least for me, that something was terribly amiss with the oft quoted 99% similarity figure was this,,, Humans and chimps have 95 percent DNA compatibility, not 98.5 percent, research shows – 2002 Excerpt: Genetic studies for decades have estimated that humans and chimpanzees possess genomes that are about 98.5 percent similar. In other words, of the three billion base pairs along the DNA helix, nearly 99 of every 100 would be exactly identical. However, new work by one of the co-developers of the method used to analyze genetic similarities between species says the figure should be revised downward to 95 percent. http://www.caltech.edu/content/humans-and-chimps-have-95-percent-dna-compatibility-not-985-percent-research-shows and then this,,, Chimps are not like humans – May 2004 Excerpt: the International Chimpanzee Chromosome 22 Consortium reports that 83% of chimpanzee chromosome 22 proteins are different from their human counterparts,,, The results reported this week showed that “83% of the genes have changed between the human and the chimpanzee—only 17% are identical—so that means that the impression that comes from the 1.2% [sequence] difference is [misleading]. In the case of protein structures, it has a big effect,” Sakaki said. http://cmbi.bjmu.edu.cn/news/0405/119.htm this had caught my eye in 2008,,, Chimpanzee? 10-10-2008 – Dr Richard Buggs – research geneticist at the University of Florida …Therefore the total similarity of the genomes could be below 70%. http://www.idnet.com.au/files/pdf/Chimpanzee.pdf And then this caught my eye in 2011: Study Reports a Whopping “23% of Our Genome” Contradicts Standard Human-Ape Evolutionary Phylogeny – Casey Luskin – June 2011 Excerpt: For about 23% of our genome, we share no immediate genetic ancestry with our closest living relative, the chimpanzee. This encompasses genes and exons to the same extent as intergenic regions. We conclude that about 1/3 of our genes started to evolve as human-specific lineages before the differentiation of human, chimps, and gorillas took place. (of note; 1/3 of our genes is equal to about 7000 genes that we do not share with chimpanzees) http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/06/study_reports_a_whopping_23_of047041.html In late 2011 Jeffrey P. Tomkins, using an extremely conservative approach, reached the figure of 87% similarity: Genome-Wide DNA Alignment Similarity (Identity) for 40,000 Chimpanzee DNA Sequences Queried against the Human Genome is 86–89% – Jeffrey P. Tomkins – December 28, 2011 Excerpt: A common claim that is propagated through obfuscated research publications and popular evolutionary science authors is that the DNA of chimpanzees or chimps (Pan troglodytes) and humans (Homo sapiens) is about 98–99% similar. A major problem with nearly all past human-chimp comparative DNA studies is that data often goes through several levels of pre-screening, filtering and selection before being aligned, summarized, and discussed. Non-alignable regions are typically omitted and gaps in alignments are often discarded or obfuscated. In an upcoming paper, Tomkins and Bergman (2012) discuss most of the key human-chimp DNA similarity research papers on a case-by-case basis and show that the inclusion of discarded data (when provided) actually suggests a DNA similarity for humans and chimps not greater than 80–87% and quite possibly even less. http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/arj/v4/n1/blastin Genomic monkey business – similarity re-evaluated using omitted data – by Jeffrey Tomkins and Jerry Bergman Excerpt: A review of the common claim that the human and chimpanzee (chimp) genomes are nearly identical was found to be highly questionable solely by an analysis of the methodology and data outlined in an assortment of key research publications.,,, Based on the analysis of data provided in various publications, including the often cited 2005 chimpanzee genome report, it is safe to conclude that human–chimp genome similarity is not more than ~87% identical, and possibly not higher than 81%. These revised estimates are based on relevant data omitted from the final similarity estimates typically presented.,,, Finally, a very recent large-scale human–chimp genome comparison research report spectacularly confirms the data presented in this report. The human–chimp common ancestor paradigm is clearly based more on myth and propaganda than fact. http://creation.com/human-chimp-dna-similarity-re-evaluated Then earlier this year, 2013, with better resolution of data, and still using an extremely conservative approach, Tomkins reached the figure of 70% genetic similarity between chimps and humans: Comprehensive Analysis of Chimpanzee and Human Chromosomes Reveals Average DNA Similarity of 70% – by Jeffrey P. Tomkins – February 20, 2013 Excerpt: For the chimp autosomes, the amount of optimally aligned DNA sequence provided similarities between 66 and 76%, depending on the chromosome. In general, the smaller and more gene-dense the chromosomes, the higher the DNA similarity—although there were several notable exceptions defying this trend. Only 69% of the chimpanzee X chromosome was similar to human and only 43% of the Y chromosome. Genome-wide, only 70% of the chimpanzee DNA was similar to human under the most optimal sequence-slice conditions. While, chimpanzees and humans share many localized protein-coding regions of high similarity, the overall extreme discontinuity between the two genomes defies evolutionary timescales and dogmatic presuppositions about a common ancestor. http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/arj/v6/n1/human-chimp-chromosome Though outliers, I’ve even found studies for percent similarity figures as low as 62%,, A simple statistical test for the alleged “99% genetic identity” between humans and chimps – September 2010 Excerpt: The results obtained are statistically valid. The same test was previously run on a sampling of 1,000 random 30-base patterns and the percentages obtained were almost identical with those obtained in the final test, with 10,000 random 30-base patterns. When human and chimp genomes are compared, the X chromosome is the one showing the highest degree of 30BPM similarity (72.37%), while the Y chromosome shows the lowest degree of 30BPM similarity (30.29%). On average the overall 30BPM similarity, when all chromosomes are taken into consideration, is approximately 62%. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/a-simple-statistical-test-for-the-alleged-99-genetic-identity-between-humans-and-chimps/ and even as low as 49% Do Human and Chimpanzee DNA Indicate an Evolutionary Relationship? Excerpt: the authors found that only 48.6% of the whole human genome matched chimpanzee nucleotide sequences. [Only 4.8% of the human Y chromosome could be matched to chimpanzee sequences.] No JLAfan2001, I don't see this bet going well for you at all.bornagain77
May 30, 2013
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"LOL! No doubt. That’s why I’m waiting eagerly for some published results… I will be difficult to hide. Akin to hiding an elephant in a bathtub. I received an email from Dr. Robert Carter (via creation.com) on this, and he is also waiting for new sequencing reports. They have an inquiry option on their website. Also, the measured modern mutation rates of the y-Chromosome. This was another thing I mentioned I’m waiting for published results on. The prediction I’m making – based on obvious YEC ideas – is that observed (modern) mutation rates will place y-Chromosomal Adam (I prefer Y-Chromosomal Noah) to about 4000 years ago. This will be a perfect fit for the YEC model, especially as mitochondrial Eve is already placed at about 6000 years ago using observed (modern) mutation rates." I predict that they will find human and chimpanzee DNA will remain as close as ever when they are done the new comparisons confirming 150 years of rigorous study. I also predict that IDists and creationists will try to spin the results to match their ideology and tell their followers that the Darwinists were trying to deceive the public.JLAfan2001
May 30, 2013
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David, Thank you for the constructive criticisms and taking time to read both the original post and the comment section. The next iteration of this (to be posted elsewhere, not at UD) will incorporate your suggestions. Thanks! Salscordova
May 30, 2013
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There are a series of arguments in this thread that do not help address the words of the title. Yes, fossilisation requires rapid burial, and the rates of burial do not match up to the slow sedimentation rates invoked by uniformitarians. scordova writes: “We have to imagine the long periods of stasis are actually represented, because the fossil layers themselves must have formed in a few years if not a few minutes!” This is fair enough – but it does not address the issue of the validity of the Geological Column. Ariel Roth is quoted to show that present erosion dates do not map onto the timescales associated with the Geological Column. But to my knowledge, Roth does not set out to falsify the Geological Column concept, but to develop a catastrophist understanding of it. There are many other points that can be made here, especially relating to comments that go further than the original post. I recommend that issues raised are defined more clearly and kept distinct. The point of my comment is to say that catastrophism in geology does not falsify the Geological Column concept. I also recommend that a greater effort is made to relate this topic to ID. If geological timescales can be shown to be shorter, then it is easier to show that Darwinian gradualism is NOT demonstrated by the fossil record.David Tyler
May 30, 2013
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Just found this. Remine interviewed back in July 2012: http://kgov.com/Walter-ReMine http://kgov.s3.amazonaws.com/bel/2012/20120706-BEL135.mp3JGuy
May 30, 2013
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A bit ashamed at myself in comment 41 for being or even sounding prideful (and too many I's) ... That prediction should be obvious in the YEC community - it's not an independent prediction of mine. It is one I'm eager to see tested though.JGuy
May 30, 2013
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http://www.icr.org/article/7525/JGuy
May 29, 2013
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http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2012-09/japanese-expedition-drills-deepest-hole-ever-drilled-ocean-floor http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/01/tech/mantle-earth-drill-missionJGuy
May 29, 2013
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Unfortunately Tomkins essay was at a creationist site. It’s always more fun to hear it from the Darwinists themselves.
LOL! No doubt. That's why I'm waiting eagerly for some published results... I will be difficult to hide. Akin to hiding an elephant in a bathtub. I received an email from Dr. Robert Carter (via creation.com) on this, and he is also waiting for new sequencing reports. They have an inquiry option on their website. Also, the measured modern mutation rates of the y-Chromosome. This was another thing I mentioned I'm waiting for published results on. The prediction I'm making - based on obvious YEC ideas - is that observed (modern) mutation rates will place y-Chromosomal Adam (I prefer Y-Chromosomal Noah) to about 4000 years ago. This will be a perfect fit for the YEC model, especially as mitochondrial Eve is already placed at about 6000 years ago using observed (modern) mutation rates.JGuy
May 29, 2013
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Sal, I've read what your referring to before, at least on of those. You have a good point and it would challenge the common explanation of the origin of the radioactive elements. Side thought: Never really thought much about it, but it's interesting that fusion and fission reactions are both exothermic. Not sure what to do with that at the moment. ...Anyway... My question is how we can account for the heat of the apparent radioactive decay. So far, for me, the best explanation is purely intuitive, and is that perhaps the expansion of space absorbs the excess energy. R.Humphreys suggests a possible explanation just like that in one of the RATE books. Even though Humphreys might have issue with a changing speed of light, this fundamental change in space is one reason I have had no problems with considering changing 'constants' in the past. The problem is, how to test this explanation. As you know, I've always been interested in the idea of things like cdk. Not to re-open that discussion, but it has an intuitive resonance with me...at least while I consider the notion of some kind of expansion (temporary or otherwise) of the fabric of space. As for Brown's ideas and possibly testing them... I think the Japanese have drilled the deepest in one of their projects. If I'm not mistaken it's called the Moho project or something like that. Maybe, they will come up with some samples to validate this. Sorry..kinda typing off the cuff here.JGuy
May 29, 2013
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