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Creationist movie starring Russell Crowe to hit theaters in 2014

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What’s the difference between creationism and ID? Noah’s flood, the genealogies, tower of Babel, Sodom and Gomorrah — in sum, creationism is defined by the book of Genesis, whereas ID is not focused on these matters at all. ID is the search for patterns that signify the action of intelligence. Judeo-Christian Creationism is the study of the book of Genesis. ID is very important to creationism, but not vice versa.

For those of us in the creationist community, some of us chuckle that Darwinists call all ID proponents creationists. If you really want to know what’s important to creationists, consider the Creation Research Society’s statement of belief:

All members must subscribe to the following statement of belief:

1. The Bible is the written Word of God, and because it is inspired throughout, all its assertions are historically and scientifically true in the original autographs. To the student of nature this means that the account of origins in Genesis is a factual presentation of simple historical truths.

2. All basic types of living things, including man, were made by direct creative acts of God during the Creation Week described in Genesis. Whatever biological changes have occurred since Creation Week have accomplished only changes within the original created kinds.

3. The great flood described in Genesis, commonly referred to as the Noachian Flood, was an historic event worldwide in its extent and effect.

4. We are an organization of Christian men and women of science who accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. The account of the special creation of Adam and Eve as one man and one woman and their subsequent fall into sin is the basis for our belief in the necessity of a Savior for all mankind. Therefore, salvation can come only through accepting Jesus Christ as our Savior.

So now that I’ve set the record straight on the difference between ID and creationism, I’ll mention the upcoming creationist movie starring Russell Crowe (a recent convert to Christianity) that is getting a lot of flak from creationists:

Back when Darren Aronofsky revealed he was working on a big-budget adaptation of the story of Noah’s Ark from the Book of Genesis, the immediate reaction from many was what kind of flak the “Black Swan” director might receive from the Christian community. After all, from the beginning, he made it clear that he was in it for the story and not the religious underpinnings — a declaration of sorts that conservatives were not going to be pleased.

“I don’t think it’s a very religious story,” he told Variety in 2012. “I think it’s a great fable that’s part of so many different religions and spiritual practices. I just think it’s a great story that’s never been on film. I want to make a big event film, and I think it can be that.”

Fast-forward and it appears that early test screenings to what The Hollywood Reporter describes as “key groups that might take a strong interest in the subject matter” have not turned out well. The report quotes an anonymous source close to the production that says poor ratings from Christians and Jews in particular have studio partner Paramount worried. Based on the above quote, I’m not sure what they were necessarily expecting from those groups, but a test screening to the general public also apparently did not fare well. From the article:

“All are said to have generated troubling reactions. But sources say Aronofsky has been resistant to Paramount’s suggested changes. ‘Darren is not made for studio films,’ says a talent rep with ties to the project. ‘He’s very dismissive. He doesn’t care about [Paramount’s] opinion.'”

With “Noah” debuting in March of next year, there’s still plenty of time to tinker with the final product. And let’s not forget the lessons learned from “World War Z,” which turned out to be a giant success despite media reports in the months prior to its release declaring otherwise.

[youtube 6qmj5mhDwJQ]

I hope it turns out to be a blockbuster.


1. ID is very important to creationists, but the converse is not true, often creationism’s association with ID is viewed as a liability by some in ID’s big tent. One of my favorite quotes by Bill Dembski regarding creationists:

…some of the people at the table with us will also be young earth creationists. Throughout my brief tenure as director of Baylor’s Michael Polanyi Center, adversaries as well as supporters of my work constantly pointed to my unsavory associates. I was treated like a political figure who is unwilling to renounce ties to organized crime. It was often put to me: “Dembski, you’ve done some respectable work, but look at the disreputable company you keep.” Repeatedly I’ve been asked to distance myself not only from the obstreperous likes of Phillip Johnson but especially from the even more scandalous young earth creationists.

I’m prepared to do neither. That said, let me stress that loyalty and friendship are not principally what’s keeping me from dumping my unsavory associates. Actually, I rather like having unsavory associates.

2. Creationists actually accept a lot of evolution! How did a small number of ancestral forms in the ark diversify into such varieties on Earth were it not for indefinite radiation (to use creationist Blyth’s ideas that were later plagiarized by Darwin).

3. I accept Noah’s flood as true. I can’t believe Darwinists who accept multiverses as an explanation of OOL find belief in Noah’s flood outrageous. If multiverses explain OOL then it also plausible we live in a universe where Noah’s flood happened. 🙂

17 Replies to “Creationist movie starring Russell Crowe to hit theaters in 2014

  1. 1
    scordova says:

    Noah’s flood, the genealogies, tower of Babel, Sodom and Gomorrah

    Tower of Babel was just added to the OP. I can’t believe the oversight.

    ID theory is very important to defending the tower of Babel account. If human language like computer language is evidence intelligent design, then the Tower of Babel account may hold some credence. Why should so many well-developed irreducibly complex languages suddenly appear in diverse geographical regions at about the same time in history.

    A designer or designers laboring hours at a time are needed to formulate a computer language. Even in human affairs, trying to create a coded language is extremely difficult. Try creating a dictionary of words and then add grammar rules and writing symbols and then try to propagate your new language. Not so easy!

    A cursory view of languages on wiki shows almost all of them tracing their history to about the same point in time. Even Harold Morwitz found the coincidence that all these languages sprang up at the same time in geographically separated regions as quite astonishing.

    Natural evolutionary forces would tend to make humans speak fewer languages over time, not more. All recorded history shows the trend to language simplification and reduction of the number of languages.

    Most ID proponents focus on biological evolution, but the language evolution problem is real. The French academy of science forbade inquiry into the question of languages. It is speculated that the problem of evolving languages would favor religious explanations. I think that is true.

  2. 2
    Barb says:

    World War Z, the movie, is an entertaining and suspenseful 2 hours of Brad Pitt fighting zombies. I liked it. The book, however, is an intelligent, scary, and sometimes funny “mockumentary” about what the world might do if a zombie apocalypse ever happened. I would love to see this book done properly as a miniseries utilizing the same SFX as The Walking Dead on AMC. Incidentally, The Walking Dead is a great show. If you like zombie apocalypses.

    The only thing World War Z has in common with the book is the title; nothing from the book itself is in the film.

    On topic: Aronofsky describes Noah’s flood as “a great fable” which is how many religious people view it as well. Not factual, but fictional. What convinces me of the authenticity of the flood is the corroborating evidence from extra Biblical sources as well as the Bible itself.

    The Bible attests to the factuality of the flood. Before the atheists whine about this, note that I am a Christian and I believe that the highest form of testimony to the flood can be found in Jesus’ words: “In the days of Noah, . . . the flood arrived and destroyed them all.”—Luke 17:26, 27.

    Let’s look at some corroborating evidence from science. the Bible is specific as to the Flood’s being global. There is nothing in its record to limit the Flood to a particular area. Neither is there any indication that others besides Noah and his family survived.

    Explaining the universal magnitude of the Flood, the Bible says: “The waters overwhelmed the earth so greatly that all the tall mountains that were under the whole heavens came to be covered. Up to fifteen cubits the waters overwhelmed them and the mountains became covered.” (Gen. 7:19, 20) And, recording the effect upon all life, the account continues: “Thus [God] wiped out every existing thing that was on the surface of the ground, from man to beast, to moving animal and to flying creature of the heavens, and they were wiped off the earth; and only Noah and those who were with him in the ark kept on surviving.”—Gen. 7:23.

    The question becomes: is there reliable evidence that a global flood occurred?

    Obviously the source of the floodwaters was not the moisture that is ordinarily found in the atmosphere today. For it has been estimated that if all the atmospheric water were suddenly released as rain, it would cover the earth’s surface only to an average depth of less than two inches. There must be another explanation, then, for all this water, and the Bible gives it.

    In its brief account of creation the Bible says regarding the forming of earth’s atmosphere: “And God went on to say: ‘Let an expanse come to be in between the waters and let a dividing occur between the waters and the waters.’ Then God proceeded to make the expanse and to make a division between the waters that should be beneath the expanse and the waters that should be above the expanse.”—Gen. 1:6, 7.

    The waters “beneath” the atmospheric “expanse” were the waters on the surface of the earth. Whereas, “the waters . . . above the expanse” were vast quantities of moisture suspended high above the earth, evidently in the form of a heavy vapor. These waters surrounded our earth in its earlier history.

    Regarding the possibility of the existence of such suspended waters, the book The Genesis Flood (1961), by John C. Whitcomb, Jr., and Henry M. Morris, observes:
    “The region above about 80 miles is very hot, over 100° F and possibly rising to 3000° F, and is in fact called the thermosphere for this reason. High temperature, of course, is the chief requisite for retaining a large quantity of water vapor. Furthermore, it is known that water vapor is substantially lighter than air and most of the other gases making up the atmosphere. There is thus nothing physically impossible about the concept of a vast thermal vapor blanket once existing in the upper atmosphere.”

    However, the exact height and the way in which the waters were held above the earth cannot be known by us with certainty. The earth in the pre-Flood days was “out of water” in the sense that the ground on which men lived and walked stood above the waters of the seas and rivers. Yet, it was “in the midst of water,” since a vast quantity of it surrounded the earth, suspended far above its surface.

    One objection: “But, such a canopy of water suspended above the earth would greatly affect earth’s climate.”

    Yes, it would. The light and heat rays from the sun would be diffused by the vapor canopy, while this vast canopy would prevent heat from escaping. Such a “greenhouse effect” would thus produce a milder, more uniform climate earth wide. Biologist Harold K. Blum explained this effect of water vapor upon climate, saying:

    “Just as the warm glass of the greenhouse tends to raise the temperature of the interior, the water vapor tends to raise that of the earth’s surface below it. This surface, or any object on it, is constantly exchanging radiation with the water vapor in the atmosphere, so the temperature of the surface is closely dependent upon the amount and temperature of this vapor.”

    That earth’s climate was uniformly warm at one time is commonly recognized. In an article concerning dinosaurs, Scientific Monthly of August 1949 observed:
    “In those days the earth had a tropical or sub-tropical climate over much of its land surface, and in the widespread tropical lands there was an abundance of lush vegetation. The land was low and there were no high mountains forming physical or climatic barriers.”

    Of the now-frigid Antarctic continent the French magazine Science et Vie, in its July 1966 issue, said:
    “This inhuman land, this desert of ice, was once a green land where streams flowed among flowers, where birds sang in the trees.” According to this source, at least sixty-one kinds of plants then grew in Antarctica.

    This immense weight of water apparently caused a shifting and buckling of earth’s relatively thin crust. Thus, new mountains were thrust upward, old mountains rose to new heights, shallow sea basins were deepened and new shorelines were established.

    And, too, the sudden fall of this canopy and the tremendous upheavals of earth would create great waves of rushing water—accomplishing in a matter of days what many scientists believe took millenniums of time to occur by slow processes of erosion. Mighty torrents of water carved out deep valleys and huge canyons. Monstrous boulders were smashed together and moved great distances from their native setting, like so many pebbles.

    Think of the great destruction of animal life this would cause. Then consider this report by Byron C. Nelson in his book The Deluge Story in Stone: “The way fishes by the millions are entombed in the rocks of England, Scotland, Wales, Germany, Switzerland, the American Rockies; the way elephants and rhinoceroses are buried by the millions in Alaska, Siberia, England, Italy, Greece; the way hippopotami are buried by the thousands in Sicily; the way reptiles are buried by the millions in western Canada, the United States, South America, Africa, Australia, to mention only a portion of such instances, absolutely require the explanation of great catastrophes for their elucidation.”

    In this connection, William J. Miller, Emeritus Professor of Geology at the University of California at Los Angeles, notes in An Introduction to Historical Geology (1952): “Comparatively few remains of organisms now inhabiting the earth are being deposited under conditions favorable for their preservation as fossils. . . . It is, nevertheless, remarkable that so vast a number of fossils are embedded in the rocks.” A catastrophe such as the Noachian flood could account for this.

    Another objection is raised: where did all the water go?
    When they contemplate waters covering “all the tall mountains that were under the whole heavens,” they think of the more than five-mile-high Himalayan peaks.

    However, there is no reason to believe that the pre-Flood mountains had to be nearly as high as that. You may recall that the Scientific Monthly magazine suggested that in earth’s earlier days “there were no high mountains forming physical or climatic barriers.” It was apparently the tremendous weight of the Flood waters that pushed mountain peaks to their high levels and produced more than six-mile-deep valleys in the ocean floor.

    Then, too, in pre-Flood times there may have been considerably less of the earth’s surface covered by water. Regarding this the book The Genesis Flood observes:
    “In the past decade have been discovered great numbers of ‘seamounts,’ which are nothing but drowned islands out in the middle of the ocean. These are flat-topped, and therefore non-volcanic in formation, and are now in many cases more than 1,000 fathoms below the surface. Yet they give abundant evidence of having once been above the surface.”

    Thus, there is ample evidence for accepting the Bible’s account of the Flood as true. There is a logical and Scriptural explanation for the source of the Flood waters, as well as for where the waters went afterward. And such a global catastrophe provides a satisfying explanation for such an intriguing phenomenon as the millions of fishes entombed at the top of mountain ranges.

  3. 3
    scordova says:

    The flood does have relevance to the ID debate in that if it explains features of the fossil record, if fossils can be demonstrated to be recent (say even 100,000 years versus hundreds of millions of years), then the ID debate takes on a new dimension.

    As I said, we can assume the universe is old, the solar system is old, even most of the fossil record is old, but if we get some serious anomalies of recent fossils, it could be a whole new ballgame for ID.

    Darwinism needs the mainstream paleontological account to be true, it cannot tolerate any suggestion of a great flood as even a partial explanation for the structure of the fossil record.

    Creationist arguments are fringe to ID, but they aren’t irrelevant either. I don’t count the creationists out in terms of the damage they can do by arguing the case of the flood. Look at the way they reacted to Mark Armitage’s fine work. Armitage made no mention of any Bible accounts in his peer reviewed paper, but those electron microscopy photos were worth a thousand words, and every knowledgeable creationist interested in Noah’s flood knew Armitage scored a victory for the creationists (and thus indirectly for ID). And so did the Darwinists, and that seems the reason the Darwinists had to concoct an excuse to get rid of Armitage.

  4. 4
    JGuy says:


    Nice post. I’d just like to add that the majority of flood waters may have been that part which originated from the subterranean depths. Also, I suspect any vapor canopy, if it existed, did not diffuse light… but ti would be interesting to consider what optical effects it would have had… e.g. a slight magnification of starlit skies perhaps?…

    Genesis7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

  5. 5
    Axel says:

    World War Z? I was reminded of Einstein’s quip about WWIV, the other day. An absolute classic!

    ‘I do not know with what weapons World War III will be fought… but I know that World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones…’

  6. 6
    JGuy says:

    p.s. I should say, at least visible light would not be expected to diffuse. But perhaps, infrared light would, also perhaps aiding the distribution of any heat more uniformly across the globe.

    BTW: There are discussions on the vapor canopy, if it existed, where it is described as possibly being held in place as a very thin later by aid of the earth’s magnetic field. A field which also would have been a stronger field at the time.

  7. 7
    scordova says:

    The movie looks like it will depict the source of the water as coming from below!! The Genesis account says, “the fountains of the great deep burst forth”.

    Watch this alternate rendering of the fountains exploding:

    If the exploding crack in the Earth where the flood water escaped propagated at slightly supersonic speeds, the spread of the flood was catastrophic.

    “The way fishes by the millions are entombed in the rocks of England, Scotland, Wales, Germany, Switzerland, the American Rockies; the way elephants and rhinoceroses are buried by the millions in Alaska, Siberia, England, Italy, Greece; the way hippopotami are buried by the thousands in Sicily; the way reptiles are buried by the millions in western Canada, the United States, South America, Africa, Australia, to mention only a portion of such instances, absolutely require the explanation of great catastrophes for their elucidation.”


  8. 8
    ludwitt says:

    I do not understand something. The intelligence designs but does not create. Or the intelligence designs and creates from those designs. If the intelligence designs and creates then intelligent design is a form of creationism. If the intelligence does not create then what is the causal chain from design to creation?

  9. 9
    bornagain77 says:

    As someone who had his clock cleaned by a PhD geologist (who was also a Darwinist), a few years back when I tried to defend the Noah flood, I was very relieved, sometime later, when I found many different secular sources indicating that worldwide catastrophic flooding happened sometime around 13 to 14,000 years ago,,
    Excerpt: Worldwide, we know that the period of 14,000 to 13,000 years ago, which coincides with the peak of abundant monsoonal rains over India, was marked by violent oceanic flooding – in fact, the first of the three great episodes of global superfloods that dominated the meltdown of the Ice Age. The flooding was fed not merely by rain but by the cataclysmic synchronous collapse of large ice-masses on several different continents and by gigantic inundations of meltwater pouring down river systems into the oceans. (124)
    What happened, at around 13,000 years ago, was that the long period of uninterrupted warming that the world had just passed through (and that had greatly intensified, according to some studies, between 15,000 years ago and 13,000 years ago) was instantly brought to a halt – all at once, everywhere – by a global cold event known to palaeo climatologists as the ‘Younger Dryas’ or ‘Dryas III’. In many ways mysterious and unexplained, this was an almost unbelievably fast climatic reversion – from conditions that are calculated to have been warmer and wetter than today’s 13,000 years ago, to conditions that were colder and drier than those at the Last Glacial Maximum, not much more than a thousand years later. From that moment, around 12,800 years ago, it was as though an enchantment of ice had gripped the earth. In many areas that had been approaching terminal meltdown full glacial conditions were restored with breathtaking rapidity and all the gains that had been made since the LGM were simply stripped away…(124)
    A great, sudden extinction took place on the planet, perhaps as recently as 11,500 years ago (usually attributed to the end of that last ice age), in which hundreds of mammal and plant species disappeared from the face of the earth, driven into deep caverns and charred muck piles the world over. Modern science, with all its powers and prejudices, has been unable to adequately explain this event. (83)

    Ice-sheet collapse and sea-level rise at the Bølling warming 14,600?years ago – March 2012
    Excerpt: Past sea-level records provide invaluable information about the response of ice sheets to climate forcing. Some such records suggest that the last deglaciation was punctuated by a dramatic period of sea-level rise, of about 20?metres, in less than 500?years. Controversy about the amplitude and timing of this meltwater pulse (MWP-1A) has, however, led to uncertainty about the source of the melt water and its temporal and causal relationships with the abrupt climate changes of the deglaciation. Here we show that MWP-1A started no earlier than 14,650 years ago and ended before 14,310 years ago, making it coeval with the Bølling warming.

    From Atlantis to the Modern World
    Excerpt: The evidence of the antediluvian world now lies up to 400 feet below sea level. It consists of massive man made complexes off the shores of Japan and elsewhere in 500 other under water sites around the world discovered since 1997 and in underwater caves that have structures that can only form above sea level. It also exists in structures all over the Canadian shield that can only be attributed to massive glaciation. Huge gouges exist in solid granite, carved out by boulders. Huge boulders not native to the regions where they are found, suggest that they were dropped their by glaciers and or massive floods. Massive tombs of broken trees and animal bones crushed together exist in places like Alaska and Oregon. Two separate Clovis peoples are evident pre and post, but not during 12,600 years ago throughout N. America. The age of the Niagara escarpment is exactly 12,600 years old and it was formed by a massive earthquake of about Richter 11 at that time. All of these attest to great forces and sudden catastrophes.

    Missoula Floods
    “between 15,000 and 13,000 years ago”

    Lake Bonneville and the Bonneville Flood
    Excerpt: Ice Age Lake Bonneville, which existed around 14,500 years ago, covered more than 20,000 square miles in Utah and parts of Idaho and Nevada. For hundreds of years, the water level of Lake Bonneville maintained a fairly constant level. The water level dropped almost 400 feet when part of Red Rock Pass, which was holding back the water, eroded. The floodwaters flowed down the Snake River and joined the Columbia River near the Tri-Cities. For a short period of time, the resulting floodwaters from Lake Bonneville increased the size of the Snake River and the Columbia River by more than 20 times their normal flow. After the flood occurred, the water levels of the Great Salt Lake eventually subsided close to what they are now. Lake Bonneville drained only once, with catastrophic results.

    Lake Agassiz

    Mega-flood triggered cooling 13,000 years ago: scientists – March 2010
    Excerpt: Bateman and his team confirmed the path of the floodwaters from Lake Agassiz that covered part of what is now Canada and the northern United States. The lake had formed in front of the ice-sheet that once covered a large part of North America.
    Scientists had previously guessed that a giant flood unleashed from the lake probably caused the Younger Dryas cooling but couldn’t confirm the route of the floodwaters.
    Bateman found that the waters flowed down the Mackenzie River, Canada’s longest, rather than the Saint Lawrence Seaway that had previously seemed the most likely route.
    Studying sediments from cliff sections along the river delta, he said the evidence spanned a large area at many altitudes. This could only be explained by a mega-flood from Lake Agassiz.
    Dating of the sediments helped the team pin down the date of the flooding, showing that it occurred right at the start of the Younger Dryas.

    Catastrophic Flooding from Ancient Lake May Have Triggered Cold Period
    Excerpt: Imagine a lake three times the size of the present-day Lake Ontario breaking through a dam and flooding down the Hudson River Valley past New York City and into the North Atlantic. The results would be catastrophic if it happened today, but it did happen some 13,400 years ago during the retreat of glaciers over North America;ct=162

    The Grand Canyon of the Yellowstone
    According to Ken Pierce, U.S. Geological Survey geologist, at the end of the last glacial period, about 14,000 to 18,000 years ago, ice dams formed at the mouth of Yellowstone Lake. When the ice dams melted, a great volume of water was released downstream causing massive flash floods and immediate and catastrophic erosion of the present-day canyon.

    Grand Canyon Carved by (Ancient Lake) Flood? Geologist Says No – 2012
    Excerpt: Dickinson hopes at least to lay to rest one hypothesis: That an ancient lake carved the canyon through a cascading series of waterfalls. A favored concept for two decades, “I don’t think it’s a valid story, and my main purpose is to dismantle it,” Dickinson said of his new study, published Dec. 13 in the journal Geosphere.

  10. 10
    bornagain77 says:


    Grand Canyon: If not formed by a megaflood (from a massive lake) then what was it formed by? – Dec. 2012

    Also of note:

    Grand Canyon
    Excerpt: Native Americans have been accessing the inner canyon for food and other resources and for travel between rims since soon after the retreat of the last ice age 13,000 years ago.


    Ancient Earth Flood Created Martian-Like Landscape, Researchers Find – July 2010
    Excerpt: This summer, he will continue the work he started at Mason by traveling to Siberia to study a series of mega floods that happened between 45,000 and 13,000 years ago.

    South America
    Excerpt: Ironically, the site with perhaps the best claim to a pre-12,000 BP date date in the Americas is among the farthest south, Monte Verde, in south central Chile. Here Tom Dillehay and his crew have excavated a camp site that has been radiocarbon-dated to about 13,000 years ago, and below the levels of that age are layers of tools and debris that may be much older, perhaps up to 33,000 years old.(26),,, Dozens and dozens of hulking blocks lay scattered in all directions, tossed like matchsticks, Posnansky argued, in the terrible natural disaster that had overtaken Tiahuanaco during the eleventh millennium BC: This catastrophe was caused by seismic movements which resulted in an overflow of the waters of Lake Titicaca and in volcanic eruptions… In addition, fragments of human and animal skeletons had been found lying in chaotic disorder among wrought stones, utensils, tools and an endless variety of other things. All of this has been moved, broken and accumulated in a confused heap. Anyone who would dig a trench here two metres deep could not deny that the destructive force of water, in combination with brusque movements of the earth, must have accumulated those different kinds of bones, mixing them with pottery, jewels, tools and utensils…(152)

    The following video is very interesting for it shows a geological formation that is now known to have been formed by a catastrophic flood, yet Charles Darwin himself had predicted the geological formation in Argentina was formed ‘gradually’:

    Where Darwin Went Wrong – geology video

    It’s plain to see – Flat land surfaces are strong evidence for the Genesis Flood
    Excerpt: A planation surface is a large, level, or nearly level, land surface that has been ‘planed’ flat by running water. Scientists believe that running water cut these surfaces because they are covered by rounded rocks. Water is the only agent we know that can produce rounded rocks, by tumbling them against each other as it transports them along.,,, Planation surfaces sometimes cut across tilted sedimentary rocks. They are especially easy to recognize. The layered sedimentary rocks are often a combination of hard and soft rocks. Only a gigantic, fast-running water flow could have cut both the hard and soft rocks evenly.,,, Geomorphologist Lester King has documented that planation surfaces are abundant on all continents and found at different elevations. He noted about 60% of Africa is a series of planation surfaces. Some planation surfaces are located on the top of mountains.

    Thus, though a PhD geologist/Darwinist may still make me look a bit silly, at least I can point to this worldwide evidence for catastrophic flooding, from secular sources no less, and hold my own against him a little bit.

    Of related interest:

    In this following video lecture (on the ‘table of nations’), at around the 6:00 minute mark, we find that the first ‘advanced’ human civilization, (with the oldest archeological evidence of metallurgy, agriculture, wine making, etc…), flourished near, or at, the Ankara area,,,(The Ankara area is called Anatolia in the video), which is close to where Noah’s Ark is said to have come to rest on a mountaintop:

    Tracing your Ancestors through History – Paul James-Griffiths

    Excerpt: Centrally located in Anatolia, Ankara is an important commercial and industrial city.

    Though, because of his Young Earth Biblical view, Paul James-Griffiths did not give the dating of the area, the dating of the first ‘advanced’ human civilization, around that area, is 12,000 years before the present:

    Stone Age Temple May Be Birthplace of Civilization
    Excerpt: The elaborate temple at Gobelki Tepe in southeastern Turkey, near the Syrian border, is staggeringly ancient: 11,500 years old, from a time just before humans learned to farm grains and domesticate animals. According to the German archaeologist in charge of excavations at the site, it might be the birthplace of agriculture, of organized religion — of civilization itself.

  11. 11
    bornagain77 says:

    Here is a very interesting geographical finding which corroborates the archeological finding for the first human civilization at Ankara:

    The Center of the Earth by Henry Morris, Ph.D.
    Excerpt: The problem is basically to determine that point on the earth’s surface, the average distance from which to all other points on the earth’s land surfaces is a minimum. This point is defined as the earth’s geographical center.

    (1) Divide all the earth’s land areas into small, equal, unit areas.

    (2) Select one of these unit areas as a possible location of the earth’s center.

    (3) Measure the distance along the earth’s surface from this reference area to each of the other unit areas, all over the earth.

    (4) Add up all these distances and divide the total by the number of individual distances measured. The result is the average distance from the reference area to all the other unit areas around the world.

    (5) Repeat the entire process in steps (1) through (4) above for each one of all the other unit areas around the world.

    (6) Compare the “average distances” so calculated for all the different unit areas. The one for which the average distance turns out to be the smallest is the earth’s geographical center.

    Actually, the calculation becomes feasible only if it can be programmed on a high speed computer. To accomplish the latter requires a knowledge of spherical trigonometry, geodesy, calculus, and computer science. In addition, there must be available accurate data on the earth’s land and water areas, arranged in a grid network tied to latitude and longitude. With these factors present, the computation then becomes quite feasible.

    ,,, The exact center of the earth, insofar as Mr. Woods’ calculations could determine, was found to be near Ankara, the present capital of Turkey, at latitude 39° and longitude 34°, on the same latitude as Mount Ararat and essentially the same longitude as Jerusalem.,,,

    Now this is very interesting!,,, That the first archeological evidence for a ‘advanced’ human civilization, with metallurgy, wine making, agriculture, would be very near, or even at, the ‘geographic center of the earth’ is a very ‘spooky’ thing for modern science to find! Pondering all the many places where the beginning of advanced human civilization ‘could have’ happened, instead of where it actually ‘did happen’, should make any reasonable person scratch their head in wonder!

    Of related interest; Rainbows are formed by what are called ‘Quantum Catastrophes’. Thus, since I find Quantum Mechanical phenomena to be thoroughly Theistic, as to the necessity of providing a coherent non-local (beyond space and time) causation, then yes I actually do think God, who is beyond space and time, does form rainbows;

    Quantum Catastrophes
    Excerpt: Catastrophes [1] are at the heart of many fascinating optical phenomena. The most prominent example of such a catastrophe is the rainbow.

    And water itself has its own ‘miraculous’ properties that firmly indicate Intelligent Design:

    Water’s quantum weirdness makes life possible – October 2011
    Excerpt: WATER’S life-giving properties exist on a knife-edge. It turns out that life as we know it relies on a fortuitous, but incredibly delicate, balance of quantum forces.,,, They found that the hydrogen-oxygen bonds were slightly longer than the deuterium-oxygen ones, which is what you would expect if quantum uncertainty was affecting water’s structure. “No one has ever really measured that before,” says Benmore.
    We are used to the idea that the cosmos’s physical constants are fine-tuned for life. Now it seems water’s quantum forces can be added to this “just right” list.

    Water’s remarkable capabilities – December 2010 – Peer Reviewed
    Excerpt: All these traits are contained in a simple molecule of only three atoms. One of the most difficult tasks for an engineer is to design for multiple criteria at once. … Satisfying all these criteria in one simple design is an engineering marvel. Also, the design process goes very deep since many characteristics would necessarily be changed if one were to alter fundamental physical properties such as the strong nuclear force or the size of the electron.

    Also of interest, it seems water itself, (H2O), was ‘designed’ with protein folding (i.e. life) in mind:

    Protein Folding: One Picture Per Millisecond Illuminates The Process – 2008
    Excerpt: The RUB-chemists initiated the folding process and then monitored the course of events. It turned out that within less than ten milliseconds, the motions of the water network were altered as well as the protein itself being restructured. “These two processes practically take place simultaneously“, Prof. Havenith-Newen states, “they are strongly correlated.“ These observations support the yet controversial suggestion that water plays a fundamental role in protein folding, and thus in protein function, and does not stay passive.

    Water Is ‘Designer Fluid’ That Helps Proteins Change Shape – 2008
    Excerpt: “When bound to proteins, water molecules participate in a carefully choreographed ballet that permits the proteins to fold into their functional, native states. This delicate dance is essential to life.”

    as well,,

    Water found to be an ideal lubricant for nanomachines – September 1, 2013
    Excerpt: Researchers from the University of Amsterdam have discovered that machines just one molecule in size move far quicker if you add a ‘lubricant’ to their surroundings. To their surprise, water proved to be the best lubricant by far.

    Of related interest to water being a ‘designer fluid’:

    DNA Sequence Reconstituted from Water Memory? – 2011
    Water carrying only the electromagnetic signature of a DNA sequence can make a replica of the sequence out of simple building blocks, Nobel laureate HIV researcher shows.
    Excerpt: When Noble laureate HIV researcher Luc Montagnier discovered that certain bacterial and viral DNA sequences dissolved in water causes electromagnetic signals to be emitted at high dilutions, that was bad enough. Now, new results from his lab appear to show that the DNA sequence itself could be reconstituted from the electromagnetic signal. That has so stunned the scientific community that one prominent supporter was nonetheless moved to remark: “Luc is either a genius or he is mad!” But some quantum physicists are taking that very seriously, and are linking Montagnier’s findings to decades of research demonstrating the sensitivity of organisms to extremely weak electromagnetic fields.

    Verse and Music:

    John 4:14
    but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

    NEEDTOBREATHE – Washed By The Water (music video)

  12. 12
    Robert Byers says:

    Any movie pushing the bible is better then nothing.
    However creationism will not get cool movies until Hollywood changes its demographics.
    The directer here is Jewish and this Jewish presence stands in the way of a movie industry that balances the nations beliefs.
    A unnatural imbalance produces the present lack of diversity and inferiority of story telling in America.
    Lots of great storys are missed by the ethnc/sex/liberal problem in entertainment.
    So for now one must accept what one gets.
    Somewhere over the rainbow however is a better way.

  13. 13
    ludwitt says:

    Please note that I am writing a paper with the speculative hypothesis that ID is a valid scientific position. I do not know much about ID. I have started off reading, “Intelligent Design Creationism and its Critics”, Edited by Robert Pennock. But I need more from the horses mouth so to speak.

  14. 14
    scordova says:


    Here is a good essay by Stephen Meyer:

    If you follow the structure of Meyer’s argument, I think you’ll do well.

    I’m an ID proponent, but I don’t argue all of ID is science. Meyer echoes my views on the matter.

    I would say, ID is a legitimate circumstantial claim based on science.

    If you want a more balanced discussion from both sides (Pennock is highly biased), I recommend Debating Design edited by William Dembski and Michael Ruse. Ruse is not an ID proponent. You get to hear both side sides argue.

    You might want to read this essay:

    And this discussion here:

  15. 15
    JGuy says:

    My bias is that pre-flood earth had more land area than we have today’s land to water ratio of ~30:70. Perhaps, half or more of the earth’s surface was land. After-all, the present oceans would include new water that had escaped from subterranean locations.

  16. 16
    ludwitt says:


    Thank you for your responce.

    You say, “I’m an ID proponent, but I don’t argue all of ID is science. Meyer echoes my views on the matter.”

    Can you answer a few questions quickly?

    What is the relation between design and creation?

    What ID is science?

    Could you provide me with a paper that has ID as a hypothesis. One that perhaps refutes Darwinian theory and another that goes beyond refuting Darwin to claim the testing of and confirmation of an ID hypothesis.

    What ID is not science? And if not what is ID, Philosophy?

  17. 17
    scordova says:


    You raised very good questions, here are some of my responses:

    Hope that helps.


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