Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Agnostics vs. Atheists: Devil’s Delusion now available at Amazon

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Has anyone provided a proof of God’s inexistence?
Not even close.

Has quantum cosmology explained the emergence of the universe or why it is here?
Not even close.

Have the sciences explained why our universe seems to be fine-tuned to allow for the existence of life?
Not even close.

Are physicists and biologists willing to believe in anything so long as it is not religious thought?
Close enough.

Has rationalism in moral thought provided us with an understanding of what is good, what is right, and what is moral?
Not close enough.

Has secularism in the terrible twentieth century been a force for good?
Not even close to being close.

Is there a narrow and oppressive orthodoxy of thought and opinion within the sciences?
Close enough.

Does anything in the sciences or in their philosophy justify the claim that religious belief is irrational?
Not even ballpark.

Is scientific atheism a frivolous exercise in intellectual contempt?
Dead on.

Dr. Berlinski’s agnosticism and willingness to say, “I don’t know”, has a great appeal to someone like me. Anyone working in the hard sciences or engineering is accustomed to being made aware of his own fallibility on an hourly basis, and out of necessity one learns to become skeptical of many things. To hear someone as brilliant as Berlinski say, “I don’t know”, makes him more credible in my eyes. Dr. Berlinski echoes the skepticism and agnosticism that is at the heart of science, a skepticism which says, “I don’t know, but I want to learn more”.

What do we know for sure? Perhaps not much. I know for sure there is no hope or salvation in Charles Darwin. I know for sure Darwin found math repugnant and admitted he couldn’t even perform the early steps of high school algebra after considerable effort.

In contrast, Berlinski loves mathematics and physics, and in his book, Devil’s Delusion, he expresses much of his love of math and physics as he critiques the scientific pretensions of the atheists.

Berlinski defends his ideas by exploring the works of Maxwell, Einstein, Godel, Turing, Chomsky and other great minds. Dawkins in contrast appeals to Darwin. I would take Maxwell, Turing, and Godel over Darwin any day.

Here are some excerpts from Berlinski’s book:

the great German mathematician David Hilbert affirmed in an address given in 1930, “We must know, we will know.”

Shortly after Hilbert delivered his address, Kurt Godel demonstrated that mathematics was inherently incomplete. If science in the twentieth century has demonstrated anything, it is that there are limits to what we can know.
….
Darwin’s theory of evolution…may be grasped by anyone in an afternoon, and often is. A week suffices to make a man a specialist.

historian Richard Weikart, who in his admirable treatise, From Darwin to Hitler makes clear what anyone capable of reading the German sources already knew: A sinister current of influence ran form Darwin’s theory of evolution to Hitler’s policy of extermination.
….
Darwinian biologists are very often persuaded that there is a conspiracy to make them look foolish. In this they are correct.
….
Computer simulations of Darwinian evolution fail when they are honest and succeed only when they are not….What these computer experiment do reveal is a principle far more penetrating than any that Darwin ever offered: There is a sucker born every minute.

After reading the book, one is forced to conclude, “scientific” atheism is The Devil’s Delusion.

Comments
So, I get the impression that your knowledge of Fourier analysis is superficial.
Whether superficial or not, I know the difference between a Fourier Series and a Fourier Transform. And it appears TorbTard had an even more superficial understanding than I. :-) I'm afraid he'll have a hard time persuading the world otherwise in light of my most recent citations...
These are still not the conditions you gave
Perhaps. But I now have a better set of conditions. :-) But even conceding that point you cannot logically argue that I did not know the difference between a Fourier Series or a Fourier Transform. That is a falsehood. Thanks anyway for explaining your line of reasoning. It's understandable that you inferred from my initial treatment that my understanding was superficial, but it does not logically follow that I did not know the difference between Fourier transforms and Fourier series. Furthermore, the notion of an infinite period for aperiodic functions holds even with my original posting if the condition of absolute integrability on that period also holds (which was in the Wiki link to Dirichlet my original posting). So your claim:
These are still not the conditions you gave
is a bit weak in light of the application of infinite period for aperiodic fuctions. You're of course welcome to keep promoting and believing that I have only superficial understanding, but you should not argue that I don't know the difference between a Fourier Transform and a Fourier Series. That is a falsehood. Most damaging to the argument that I could not distiguish between the two is the fact the Wiki Dirichlet link uses two separate phrases: "Fourier Transform" and "Fourier Series". On those grounds alone, it is evident I had seen and was familiar with the fact that two separate concepts must surely exist. I appreciate your courage in posting here at UD. For that you have my utmost respect. regards, Salvadorscordova
April 4, 2008
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Sal, I'm offering a rebuttal :-) It was pure chance that I found your recent post at Chu-Carroll's blog - and you can't expect a quick answer to your post as the thread is dormant since Mar 1st. To summarize my view: 1. In your blog, you lifted a formula from the wikipedia entry about Fourier transforms. I say "lifted", as you hyperlinked to the pic of the formula. 2. In the wikipedia entry, the formula is correctly stated for a "complex-valued Lebesgue-integrable function". 3. In your entry, you change this to "obey[ing] the Dirichelet Condition". 4. Therefore, I stated, that you are mixing up Fourier series and general Fourier transforms. 5. You then quote a lecture note of the Physics Department of the University of Hong-Kong, which introduces a Fourier transform for an aperiodic function by looking at this function having an infinite period. 6. The conditions for the function in this lecture notes are: - being Lebesgue integrable - satisfying the Dirichlet conditions on every finite interval. 7. These are still not the conditions you gave and 8. the second condition is only necessary for this special approach - which is thought to motivate the students, I guess - while 9. being in L1 is the important one... So, I get the impression that your knowledge of Fourier analysis is superficial.DiEb
April 4, 2008
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Someone has already taken the time to post a brilliant review of the Berlinski book on Amazon. http://www.amazon.com/Devils-Delusion-Atheism-Scientific-Pretensions/dp/0307396266 Anyone want to make a bet how long before John Kwok or that Victor Stenger guy tears it apart? Haha.DeepDesign
April 4, 2008
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DiEb, Look at the very end of that blog at Mark Chu's Log. I posted right there in hostile territory on April 2, 2008. Did you notice no one offered a rebuttal? Thank you however for helping me clear my name. People on Mark's weblog fabricated falsehoods about me in order to smear me, and thus I took a great deal of exception to one of their commenters, TorbTard Larson. Thank you for waiting a bit to post your comment. Because UD does not operate like the ARN discussion forum, after a thread here at UD has run it's course I'm happy to grant that people on a few threads can talk about whatever they want in order to diffuse whatever is on their mind. I think this thread is close to running it's course since most people still have Berlinski's book on order. Perhaps at some future date one of the UD authors may want to provide a book review of Berlinski's book. So if something is pressing on your mind, give it another day, and I'll open the tail end for some off-topic dialogue since this thread looks like it will run its course. I want to be aware of the areas of interest of UD readers. This can be valuable since it was through this discussion I realized that there could be interest in Michael Lynch's new book and Fisher's fundamental theorem. I began preparing a new thread on that topic last night. The fact that Berlinski mentioned exactly my thoughts on the matter says that Fisher's Fundamental Theorm would be a good topic to discuss.scordova
April 4, 2008
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DHL, I'm not the owner of the blog "Good Math, Bad Math", that would be Mark Chu-Carroll. I just took part in a discussion about Fourier transforms, correcting Sal on an issue of Dirichlet conditions. My current post at "Good Math, Bad Math" seems to be awaiting moderation. I choose this platform to comment on the issue anew, as 1. Sal brought it up here 2. I don't see any possibility to post on Sal's own blog {DLH DiEb my apologies. I corrected my comment above.}DiEb
April 4, 2008
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Hi Frost, I didn't get to finish what I was writing earlier. Chomsky, proposes that the human brain is somehow equipped at birth with a Universal Grammar out of which all human languages later develop. Universal Grammar is defined by the dictionary as "The set of formal grammatical features that all natural languages, both actual and possible, must possess in order to have the properties of human languages." Obviously Egyptian and Mayan are different, but both share the common principles of syntactical language.DeepDesign
April 4, 2008
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Allen Ergo, both the “modern evolutionary synthesis” and the mathematical arguments for ID must both be either heavily modified or rejected outright. We've been using the flagellum as the icon of ID for about a decade now. I don't think your epigenetic phenotype variation hypothesis is relevant there and thus there's no modification of ID needed. If you think epigenetic information is relevant in the flagellum please explain how. I'll agree you're half right, however - the modern synthesis is irretrievably flawed. DaveScot
April 4, 2008
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DiEb My Apologies on my previous deleted remark- it is indeed Mark Chu-Carroll who needs to learn the art of civil discourse - including how to avoid ad hominem attacks and how to address the argument not the person.DLH
April 4, 2008
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Heck, here: http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2007/12/sal_strikes_again_fourier_tran.phpDiEb
April 4, 2008
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Sal, I found no way to post on your own blog re "TorbTard Toasted at PandasThumb". So, I'll try this way and ask you to have a look here. I added my comment...DiEb
April 4, 2008
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Oh, he meant that Dembski just came up in the conversation but not in person. I was a little confused. Thanks for clearing that up Cordova.Frost122585
April 4, 2008
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"There is no evidence that language evolves” to any significant extent. I think Noam Chomsky would agree. Human beings have an innate knowledge of language, which is often referred to as universal grammar.DeepDesign
April 3, 2008
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Bill Dembski wasn't there, only the topic of Bill Dembski came up.scordova
April 3, 2008
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Sal: I read with interest your comments on Fisher's Fundamental Theorem of Natural Selection. I have been pointing out for years that Fisher's mathematical theory of natural selection is self-limiting. That is, natural selection eliminates the raw material that is absolutely necessary for its operation: variation within (and between) populations. This problem is similar to the one posed by Fleeming Jenkin to Darwin's original theory (in the Origin of Species. That is, Jenkin pointed out that if inheritance were blended (as was the predominant theory at the time), sexual recombination would have the effect of eliminating variation and therefore depriving natural selection of its necessary raw material. Both Darwin and Fisher proposed the same solution to this problem: "continuous variation", which is illustrated mathematically by the normal distribution of variable traits within populations. Darwin provided no rigorous explanation of where such variation came from, supplying instead massive examples of such variation (especially among domesticated plants and animals, especially pigeons). Fisher developed an entire self-consistent theory by which continuous variation could become "embedded" within a population. However, Fisher's theory was still vulnerable to the effects of natural selection, which tends to reduce variation (and even eliminate it in small populations). Sewall Wright's theory of genetic drift was his attempt to solve this problem, proposing that in small populations natural selection can be overwhelmed by purely random changes as the result of what could most precisely be called "sampling error." All of these problems ultimately stemmed from the over-emphasis on the primacy of genetic specification of phenotypes. The idea that all evolutionary change could ultimately be reduced to changes in allele frequencies in populations was fundamental to the mathematical theories of evolution propounded by the founders of evolutionary theory (especially the founders of the neo-darwinian "modern evolutionary synthesis"). As I have pointed out before, much of the mathematical underpinning of ID theory (especially John Sanford's "genetic entropy" and William Dembski's "complex specified information") suffers from precisely the same problem. That is, they also assume that all significant evolutionary change happens at the level of genes (or even nucleotide sequences). However, as I have recently pointed out (see http://evolutionlist.blogspot.com/2007/10/rm-ns-creationist-and-id-strawman.html), the most important factor in evolution is not variation in the genetic code, but rather variation in the phenotypes in populations. There are now many known mechanisms by which phenotypic variation can be generated without genetic variation, and vice versa. Ergo, both the “modern evolutionary synthesis” and the mathematical arguments for ID must both be either heavily modified or rejected outright.Allen_MacNeill
April 3, 2008
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Man that stings. I would have loved to jaw with him after all these months of blogging on his site.Frost122585
April 3, 2008
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Holly hell, Dembski was there and I didnt get a chance to meet him! Cordova c'mon man. Dont tell me you knew and didnt tell me.Frost122585
April 3, 2008
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One of the brightest minds at PandasThumb was also at David Berlinski's book party, Jason Rosenhouse. Last year it was my friendly dialogue with Rosenhouse at a reception for Bill Dembski and Michael Shermer that help inspire me to gradschool. He's quite a fine gentleman in person, and drove 2.5 hours to attend David Berlinski's talk. I link to his take on the party. Berlinski in Washington, DC PS This may be one event where we hear on CSPAN2 people from UD as well as PandasThumb!scordova
April 3, 2008
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Oh, my goodness, I think I've opened pandora's box by talking about Lynch's book. I'm going to slap together a separate blog thread to delve into Fisher's fundamental theormem and Lynch's contempt for selectionist theory.
Those who promote the concept of the adaptive evolution of the above features [complexity, modularity,robustness, evolvability] are by no means memebers of the intelligent design movement...however, as emphasized above, the burden of evidence for those who embrace an all-powerful guiding hand of natural selection should be no less stringent than what one would demand of a creationist Michael Lynch
Neither is Lynch off the hook since he invokes stochastic models for evolution as an alternative to natural selection. Bill Dembski's displacement theorem pretty much destroys Lynch's hope that there exists a stochastic route to the evolution of integrated complexity. Berlinski in his book writes of Michael Lynch and echoes this point:
biologist Michael Lynch observed that "Dawkin's agenda has been to spread the word on the awesome power of natural selection." The view that results, Lynch remarks, is incomplete and therefore "profoundly misleading". ..... The demotion of natural selection from biological superpower to ideological sad sack throws into bright relief an obvious question: How to explain on the basis of a random walk, the startling coherence and complexity of living organisms.
scordova
April 3, 2008
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Certainly not. Unless you want to accuse the likes of R.A. Fisher, Warren Ewens, Joe Felsenstein, Mike Lynch, John Maynard Smith, etc. etc. of not being able to think mathematically. If you want, I can list a few more mathematicians and statisticians.
Don't forget JBS Haldane or Motoo Kimura!!!! The problem however, is that with respect to selection theory, their math pretty much destroys any belief that natural selection can possibly be the majority cause for much of anything. I have Michael Lynch's latest book on the structure of the genome. Of the 500 or so pages, only 3 pages mention Charles Darwin, and humorously, those pages are in the chapter entitled: "GenomeFart" (echoes of Bill Dembski humor).
the uncritical acceptance of natural selection as an explantory force for all aspects of biodiversity (without any direct evidence) is not much different than invoking an intelligent desinger page 368
Ah the problem Dirversity! Selection is mathematically defined by the reduction of diversity, yet we have diversity all around. Natural Selection is measured by reduction of diversity yet the exapansion of diversity must be explained through a reduction of diversity. Lynch is being far to kind to the selectionists. It would appear Fisher's fundamental theorem of natural selection pretty much trashes Darwin's grand hypothesis. Ah the irony of it all..
It is well known that most biologists abhor all things mathematical... Michael Lynch
scordova
April 3, 2008
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Maybe the difference is explained by the logical and mathematical thinking required in the hard sciences, as opposed to the the language based sophism required in the soft sciences.
Certainly not. Unless you want to accuse the likes of R.A. Fisher, Warren Ewens, Joe Felsenstein, Mike Lynch, John Maynard Smith, etc. etc. of not being able to think mathematically. If you want, I can list a few more mathematicians and statisticians.Bob O'H
April 3, 2008
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William Wallace, I think Dr. Berlinski has a charm and natural intelligence that can appeal to all people. He does (in my humble opinion) an enormous amount of good for ID as a scientific and cultural enterprise.PannenbergOmega
April 3, 2008
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Hi Frost, sounds like everyone had a good time. I'm hoping to watch one of the showings of the event on CSPAN 2 this weekend. Mike1962 & AussieID, I am well aware of Kwok too, Haha.PannenbergOmega
April 3, 2008
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But I got it signed.Frost122585
April 2, 2008
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I ordered Berlinski's book.DaveScot
April 2, 2008
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Please replace "reasonable reasonable" with reasonable doubts.William Wallace
April 2, 2008
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"Billions of ordinary folks all over the world are able to see right through the claims of the darwinists, and with very little effort, to boot." True, as you so eloquently described in Every House is Built by Some Man... But as the mass media incites self-doubt (~''who are you going to believe? NOVA, or your lying eyes?''), I fear simple country folk of the present and future may doubt their own common sense, sometimes for good, sometimes for ill. To take one example in which common sense may not be a good substitute for science: ask a farmer how far the sun is away from the Earth, he may very well reply "93 million miles" because he heard it on a PBS or Discovery Channel documentary. Mind you this farmer has not performed the measurement, and days out on a tractor watching sun beams form angles through gaps in the clouds indicate the sun is much closer. Yet, the farmer discounts his own real world experience and defers to the factoid mentioned on television. God gave us brains, and we should use them. Common sense can only take us so far. The macro-theory of evolution fails to allay reasonable reasonable. Other (hard) scientific theories do not.William Wallace
April 2, 2008
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mike1962: "Any bets on how long it will take John Kwok to review the book without even reading it?" I couldn't agree with you any more ... and I'm sure there wouldn't be too many suckers to take THAT bet on, apart from John Kwok, but then he would have to read THIS to take that bet on, and I don't think this or Devil’s Delusion will be on his 'to read' list. Devil's Delusion, though, is on MY reading list.AussieID
April 2, 2008
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Pannen, I might add that at the book release party last night Berlinski did quote Gödel in reference to belief. I had the pleasure to talk to David for about 3 or 4 minutes. We talked about some of my ideas. I used an example (and you can here it in my question that I asked in the Q&A if you tune in on the CSPAN2 broadcast) of how linguistic evolution of civilizations that have died out such as the ancient Egyptians or the Mayans is a little like the Cambrian explosion in that there is a sudden emergence of complexity and then it disappears. Then we have to go to a different civilization starting out at a different point of perhaps less complexity on various ways. As an example the precision and perfection of the pyramids was way advanced for its day. I used this example to illustrate, and as an analogy, to the fact that language is obviously a DIRECT logically necessary extension of intelligence. You cant have one without the other. Yet, language evolves. So my point was that evolution does nothing to discount intelligent design because you can have them both. The language in DNA seems to make my point manifestly. My other point that beefed up my assertion that was underpinned by the concept that "evolutionists are trying to use evolution to get rid of design and faith in divinity though “broken logic"-- that even if you explain how everything happened and prove beyond a reasonable doubt that evolution is the big picture, you still have the problem of probability! Life arising and doing all of the things that it does cant happen by virtue of (or rather lack there of) a stochastic shuffle. Even the Neo-Darwinists aren’t making this claim. They rely of secular laws. But where did they come from. As expelled will show they wont even let us ask this question because it fallows by logical necessity that intelligent design is a viable option and a robust scientific theory. I will say however that Dr. Berlinski rejected my analogy between evolution and ID and the evolution of language because he said that “there is no evidence that language evolves” to any significant extent. That is to say that language, between the ancient Egyptians and say the modern day English is virtually the same. I’m not so sure he was right (and intuitively I think he’s wrong but I haven’t studied it enough to say for sure) but I respectfully and graciously moved on to tell him that I was a huge fan of his writing and that I owned a bunch of his books (Infinite Assent, Newton‘s Gift, Tour of The Calculus and of course I picked up a copy of The Devil‘s Delusion there at the DI). I told him that I “had bought” many of his books-- The good and ever dry doctor replied predictably, "Well, please don’t stop buying them now! At least not on my account.”Frost122585
April 2, 2008
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Nice article here by the good doctor. Einstein and Godel:Friendship between equals by David Berlinski http://www.discovery.org/a/2444 "Godel was an optimist by conviction and a theist by inclination; he took seriously speculations about the after-life; he was sceptical about the Darwinian theory of evolution. And he was a voluptuous Platonist, arguing with great boldness and ingenuity that the human intellect is capable of directly grasping pure mathematical abstractions."PannenbergOmega
April 2, 2008
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I'll buy the audio version the very day it's released...Gods iPod
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