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COVID-19 and fading respect for Big Science

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At Creation-Evolution Headlines, an epic paragraph helps us prepare for the
fallout:

Without trying to take sides here, a few headlines illustrate some of the posturing and attacking going on. UC Davis claims that your mask cuts down risk of contracting the disease by 65%, but how can they measure that without specifying the conditions? What kind of mask? How often is it cleaned? The Scientist pitched in, too, with an infographic. But Dr Anthony Fauci, the acclaimed world expert on infectious diseases, first denied the effectiveness of masks and now strongly advocates them. The bickering over masks has taken a political turn, with conservatives often denying their effectiveness, and liberals using masks as virtue signals to shame those who don’t use them. Some say UV kills the virus, others say it doesn’t. The University of Houston has an air filter they claim can kill the virus. The Mayo Clinic puffs itself up in the role of authority, “Debunking COVID-19 Myths,” but who will debunk the debunkers? Much of its advice appears commonsense, but the ‘experts’ have blundered big time publicly for months now, with mainstream media behind them. They promoted then retracting a claim about hydrochloroquine causing harm, because it made President Trump, who promoted HCQ, look bad—a political motivation. See negative analysis by Mary McCullough, and compare it with claims of success from a Henry Ford study (New York Post); see how CNN’s coverage immediately casts doubt on it, revealing its knee-jerk bias against the president). A preprint on bioRxiv finds that HCQ is theoretically and experimentally good after all. Today, there is a controversy going on about whether the virus is airborne (e.g., Nature, BBC News, Live Science). Why is such a simple observational test so hard for the world’s greatest medical scientists to figure out, using state-of-the-art equipment?

David F. Coppedge, “Big Science Is Losing Even More Credibility” at Creation-Evolution Headlines

It’s not the uncertainty that is the problem. It’s the demand for belief and obedience to a variety of conflicting claims in the face of such uncertainty. Sooner or later people begin to doubt whatever they hear, even in matters about which there is considerable certainty. And Big Science is bringing that on itself. It isn’t the “enemies of science” who are doing it.

106 Replies to “COVID-19 and fading respect for Big Science

  1. 1
    Seversky says:

    Coppedge is right. Science is unreliable. Far better to get your medical advice from President Trump. Just drink some bleach and you’ll be fine.

  2. 2
    ET says:

    Coppedge is right. Science ruled by materialism is nonsense. Good thing medical people do not rely on materialism nor evolutionism to make their medical judgements.

  3. 3
    AaronS1978 says:

    Hold it wait just one moment

    “Far better to get your medical advice from President Trump. Just drink some bleach and you’ll be fine“

    Now I want an answer to this

    But if my memory serves me right and I have a post about this on Facebook so I’m pretty sure it does serve me right

    Buuuuuuuuuut

    Didn’t cnn just post an article about how hydroxychloroquine actually did work?…………

    Weren’t you one of the ones that said Trump was just full of shit?

    Oh waIt! insulting Trump, even when he’s right always makes your point which was when scientists are crap, Trump is crappy here

    All of a sudden the problem of scientists doing bad science just goes away because trump does badder science and he dumb dumb

    So we have to settle for bad science because Trump’s science is worse

    This is your logic

    Yes or no

  4. 4
    polistra says:

    The facts didn’t make any difference. The riots made all the difference.

    Many ordinary people were still willing to trust “science” until the biggest and most dramatic CONTROLLED EXPERIMENT in all of social science.

    After the riots, everyone SAW WITH THEIR OWN EYES that the lockdowns and suicide masks had NOTHING to do with science or viruses. The lockdowns and suicide masks are SOLELY designed to humiliate and kill the Wrong Sort Of People while glorifying and enriching the Right Sort Of People. The only relevant variable is whether the governor thinks you’re the Right Sort Of People or not.

  5. 5
    jerry says:

    I knew a very smart guy as nice a person as you could imagine with a PhD in an aspect of physics. He was more an engineer than a basic scientist. He loved building practical things. He would defend scientists to the wall as committed to the truth. He was also a committed atheist. He has since passed away.

    We had discussions on evolution in which he defended Darwin blindly often incoherently. I never pushed too hard because he was such a nice guy and didn’t want to cause hard feelings. Winning arguments can often be counterproductive.

    But then came along the global warming debate and he would produce chapter and verse on why it was nonsense. Boy did he excoriate these scientists as nothing more than paid peddlers of a fake conspiracy. I used to smile inwardly as he was accusing scientists of being cowards and anything but defenders of the truth.

    We are certainly see that play out today.

  6. 6
    kairosfocus says:

    Sev, your suggestion on bleach is a reckless falsehood, and one that has been corrected here at UD. Does that give you a clue as to why your credibility has to be regarded as nil? Where, BTW, Dr Raoult, a leading researcher in France and Dr Zelenko as well as many others are in fact medical doctors/practitioners. The net result has been that there was longstanding reason to see HCQ based cocktails as likely to be useful treatments, if given in good time; and, after all the huffing and puffing and blowing, that is effectively confirmed. It is interesting to see the refusal to accept that, especially given obvious politicisation driving the refusal. KF

  7. 7
    ET says:

    OT- Proof that Joshua Swamidass and Peaceful Science are willfully ignorant of ID concepts https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/open-challenge-to-id-advocates/1652:

    The Puzzle Rules
    If you can’t solve this puzzle with an objective metric, it means you can’t objectively determine the CSI of objects. I do not think this is a solvable puzzle, but because I generated the sequences I know the right answer. For each of the following sequences, I know the correct CSI. I can give a few hints, and a promise:

    Each sequence has a different CSI, either 5, 10, 100, 150 or 200 bits of CSI to be precise.
    Each sequence was constructed with about five lines of python code.
    I’m saving the code used to generate this, and the answer key, and can produce it when you are done trying.
    Remember, it is not enough to just permute these 5 numbers and try all combinations. You have to produce an implementation of ASC that produces results (1) consistent with these numbers and (2) able to identify which ones have high CSI. Of course, you could submit a function that always emits zero. It would be less than CSI in all cases, but it would be unable to determine which sequences were high or low.

    If you cannot solve this puzzle (and I think it is impossible to solve), then it seems we have demonstrated that ASC cannot practically identify high CSI.

    The Sequences
    98d50ad729eb9af79bedc1eb64d555083513057ddfa6e86892fc6360d843e168

    ce98c8f3aaddcac18d724c93ccde9b5af87f1967fe4481700d0832c5b003f4a2

    451834bb93b6de3e8f87255f14789b728b544304027343000e57eabba0573318

    1319730bc751757d7ae1b1f21f81978b9a2ee6d96685f03afc93d257c7d21d66

    19385699c280f99b6825aa165c38191b9d7b6f150cf504f25b9934e96b90261d

    Good luck, and share this widely in your networks.

    1- CSI means there is specified information of 500 bits or more. Not one of Joshua’s sequences hits that mark.

    2- Science is not a parlor game

    3- Function is based on OBSERVTION. As is SPECIFICATION.

    As Wm Dembski wrote:

    Biological specification always refers to function. An organism is a functional system comprising many functional subsystems. In virtue of their function, these systems embody patterns that are objectively given and can be identified independently of the systems that embody them. Hence these systems are specified in the same sense required by the complexity-specification criterion (see sections 1.3 and 2.5). The specification of organisms can be cashed out in any number of ways. Arno Wouters cashes it out globally in terms of the viability of whole organisms. Michael Behe cashes it out in terms of minimal function of biochemical systems.- pg 148 No Free Lunch

    Peaceful Science is ignorant of science and ID

  8. 8
  9. 9
    Seversky says:

    Kairosfocus @ 6

    Sev, your suggestion on bleach is a reckless falsehood, and one that has been corrected here at UD. Does that give you a clue as to why your credibility has to be regarded as nil?

    How is the credibility of the official transcript of Trump’s remarks at the press conference on April 23 2020?

    THE PRESIDENT: Thank you very much. So I asked Bill a question that probably some of you are thinking of, if you’re totally into that world, which I find to be very interesting. So, supposing we hit the body with a tremendous — whether it’s ultraviolet or just very powerful light — and I think you said that that hasn’t been checked, but you’re going to test it. And then I said, supposing you brought the light inside the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way, and I think you said you’re going to test that too. It sounds interesting.

    ACTING UNDER SECRETARY BRYAN: We’ll get to the right folks who could.

    THE PRESIDENT: Right. And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning. Because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs. So it would be interesting to check that. So, that, you’re going to have to use medical doctors with. But it sounds — it sounds interesting to me.

    So we’ll see. But the whole concept of the light, the way it kills it in one minute, that’s — that’s pretty powerful.
    [Emphases added]

    On the most generous interpretation, that was an incredibly irresponsible comment. He is President of the United States. He should have been aware that there would be a lot of people out there who would take his remarks as indicating that bleach could be injected or ingested as a treatment for the disease. The subsequent calls to doctors and clinics made that clear.

    You frequently cite Plato’s parable of the ship of state. Did he discuss what would happen if an otherwise unskilled demagogue were to take control of the vessel by manipulating the crew’s sense of grievance into voting him in as master/helmsman, believing against all evidence that he could do no wrong? “Iceberg? What iceberg?”

    As for the efficacy of HCL cocktails in the treatment of COVID-19, we will have a much better understanding of their therapeutic value based on the weight of evidence from as many observational studies and gold-standard RCTs as possible. The data from studies by Drs Raoult and Zelenko will contribute to that but their maverick or anti-establishment images, while it may make them more appealing personalities to some, does not make their work any more or less reliable.

  10. 10
    rhampton7 says:

    If you’ve been in contact with your state lawmaker in Mississippi, you may want to get a coronavirus test.

    About one in six state lawmakers have tested positive for the coronavirus, according to Dr. Thomas Dobbs of the Mississippi Health Department.

    For weeks, politicians flouted mask recommendations inside the state Capitol. Twenty-six state legislators have now tested positive for Covid-19, including Lt. Gov. Delbert Hosemann and State House Speaker Philip Gunn. Neither man wore a mask at a bill signing at the governor’s mansion last week.

    https://ktvz.com/news/national-world/2020/07/10/dozens-of-mississippi-lawmakers-have-coronavirus-after-weeks-of-refusing-to-wear-masks/

  11. 11
    JVL says:

    Four members of the infamous “Church of Bleach”—a father and his three adult sons—are facing fraud and contempt charges in Florida in connection to selling industrial bleach as a “miracle cure-all.”

    Mark Grenon, 62, and his sons, Jonathan Grenon, 34, Jordan Grenon, 26, and Joseph Grenon, 32, all from Bradenton, Florida, were charged Wednesday.

    Federal prosecutors in Miami allege that the men have been selling their industrial bleach product—called “Miracle Mineral Solution” or MMS—as a treatment for COVID-19 and other conditions. The prosecutors say the men willfully violated a federal order made in April that they stop selling and distributing the product. The family also allegedly sent letters threatening violence to the federal judge who issued the order and warned that they may stage “a Waco.”

    All along, a special agent with the Food and Drug Administration made undercover purchases of their MMS and exchanged emails with the men, according to an affidavit. In some of those emails, one of the defendants advised the agent on how many drops of bleach per hour the agent’s (fictional) wife should drink to treat her bladder cancer.

    After a federal judge ordered them to stop selling the bleach, the men allegedly moved their online orders to email and required customers to fill out a survey, asking customers if they worked for the government or “fake news.”

    All in all, the men allegedly made around $500,000 in the last year alone from selling industrial bleach as a medical treatment. They averaged about $32,000 a month. But when they began touting the bleach as a cure for COVID-19 in March of this year, they made $123,000—about a 400-percent increase in sales.

    Genesis claims MMS can cure a variety of serious diseases and disorders, including cancer, Alzheimer’s, autism, malaria, Parkinson’s, multiple sclerosis, and HIV/AIDS—and, most recently, COVID-19, the disease caused by the new coronavirus, SARS-CoV-2.

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/07/florida-men-charged-with-selling-bleach-as-covid-19-cure-threatening-a-waco/

  12. 12
    ET says:

    Anyone who buys bleach for a covid-19 cure-all gets what they deserve.

    Pr4esident Trump NEVER said to inject nor drink bleach. seversky is lying or just plain stupid.

  13. 13
    ET says:

    The efficacy of HCQ cocktails is already in the scientific literature. It is what makes up the MedCram videos. So I understand why our resident evos don’t grasp it

  14. 14
    Mac McTavish says:

    ET

    Pr4esident Trump NEVER said to inject nor drink bleach. seversky is lying or just plain stupid.

    It is true that Trump never said ‘bleach’. He said ‘disinfectant’ of which bleach is one of the most common one used. And it is a fact that his injudicious use of words resulted in people drinking things like bleach and peroxide.

  15. 15
  16. 16
    ET says:

    If anyone listens to any President for medical advice then they deserve what they get. Trump said medical doctors should be doing it if they approve. He never said to do it yourself.

  17. 17
    ET says:

    Retired Physicist is ignorant on how the USA system works. It’s a bad time for willfully ignorant people.

  18. 18
    Retired Physicist says:

    @JVL in my very first physics job I was responsible for etching silicon dioxide wafers, and we used something called hot piranha solution. Basically, you mix sulphuric acid and industrial strength hydrogen peroxide and heat it up to about 150C. It stripped any adsorbed matter from the wafers. The idea that people would inject or drink bleaches like hydrogen peroxide is just amazing to me. America has some of the smartest people in the world, and some of the dumbest people in the world.

  19. 19
    Retired Physicist says:

    “Pr4esident Trump NEVER said to inject nor drink bleach”

    ETTD.

    The United States normally has 600,000 bankruptcies every year due to medical bills. It will be interesting in a few years to look back and see what the rise is for this year.

  20. 20
    JVL says:

    Retired Physicist: America has some of the smartest people in the world, and some of the dumbest people in the world.

    Actually, in my experience, the whole world has lots of really smart people and lots of really dumb people. The trick is to know who to vote for.

  21. 21
    Retired Physicist says:

    @JVL yes, this whole thing has me personally upset. Beyond the hundreds of thousands of Americans who have died and will die, and the hundreds of thousands or millions who will wind up with problems from stroke, lung damage etc., it’s the little things too. I used to fly JAX to FCO (Rome, Italy) twice a year and enjoy the wonderful clothes, and coffee, and belle donne, and I can’t fly there now, and I don’t know how many months it’ll be before I can again.

  22. 22
    ET says:

    Incessant whining never cured anything. Thinking the President to be a micro-manager is pure ignorance. All Trump’s detractors expect that he should be micro-managing this situation. So they blame Trump. And blaming other people is cowards’ work. It’s quite possible the the mass hatred for Trump is causing the mass break-down with respect to containing the virus. That it is by far more likely than anything the President has said causing it.

    Natural selection is the process of eliminating the less fit from the population. We are observing it in action on a global scale. COVID-19 just happens to a case of NS applied to humans. Humans who should be smart enough to adapt. Adapt or die. A small % are choosing death. I don’t have a problem with that.

  23. 23
    ET says:

    There are different grades of H2O2. And it has been and is being used in medical scenarios: How Food Grade Hydrogen Peroxide Helps COPD and Emphysema. So THAT would be why people are looking to it now.

  24. 24
    jerry says:

    Beyond the hundreds of thousands of Americans who have died and will die, and the hundreds of thousands or millions who will wind up with problems from stroke, lung damage etc

    There has been a known cure for over three months but the political spectrum in the US has prevented this cure from being used except in isolated cases. There are now more cures known but these too are prevented from being implemented. So a lot of dead people to make a political point.

    That is what people should be upset about. But the dead are just statistics till one wants to make a specious political argument.

  25. 25
    Retired Physicist says:

    The idea that there is a simple cure, and the entire global medical community has covered it up, is one of the more outstanding conspiracy theories I’ve ever heard. A person who believes this probably believes in several other conspiracy theories, that for instance my global physics community is covering up infinite energy machines or some other silly nonsense.

  26. 26
    rhampton7 says:

    “ There has been a known cure for over three months”

    Jerry, Who was it that actually said there is a cure? Do you know?

  27. 27
    jerry says:

    Zelenko found a cure. There are others now. You should know that by now. Don’t you read? Or do you just cut and paste dribble?

    There must have been a thousand posts here on Zelenko and his protocol.

    There’s $200,000 to anyone who show it is not a cure. No takers anywhere.

    You might want to ask why some countries don’t have a problem while neighboring countries do?

  28. 28
    ET says:

    RP:

    The idea that there is a simple cure, and the entire global medical community has covered it up, is one of the more outstanding conspiracy theories I’ve ever heard.

    Then it is good that no one is making that claim

  29. 29
    jerry says:

    The idea that there is a simple cure, and the entire global medical community has covered it up, is one of the more outstanding conspiracy theories I’ve ever heard.

    Well not the global medical community but a large portion of it has ignored it or demonized parts of it.

    You are apparently not well read on this topic and do not understand how the virus works. I have no idea what your news sources are but if you had been here for the last 4 months and followed the links provided, you would not in good faith have made the comment you just posted.

  30. 30
    ET says:

    You can’t fix stupid, Jerry. All you can do is hope there are also smart people reading your posts.

  31. 31
    jerry says:

    All you can do is hope there are also smart people reading your posts.

    I came back here in late March to see what information people had on the virus. I had periodically looked in here to see what was currently going on after being a frequent contributor for over 10 years.

    I have found this site to be a continuing good source of information on science in general and lately on the virus. This led me to several other places to get excellent information and insight on the virus.

    It is also a good place to see the nonsense that permeates our society.

  32. 32
    rhampton7 says:

    So you really believe there is a medically proven cure for Covid 19.

    Now I happen to know that Zelenko never proved such a thing and I’d be willing to bet that if KF were honest with you, he would say the same thing.

    All you have is word of one doctor, who has admitted to The NY Times:

    “In an interview on Friday, Dr. Zelenko said that he was guilty of nothing more than sloppy wording. “I’m a clinician, not a researcher,” he said. “I don’t understand fully the language of clinical research.””

  33. 33
    rhampton7 says:

    Israelis are desperate for a solution to the coronavirus crisis. And this desperation manifests in very different ways depending on the local community in question.

    Many Israelis believe their nation’s bio-technical expertise will lead the way, both at home and internationally. Others are awaiting Divine intervention. And some are latching on to any and all proposed “miracle” cures to end the COVID-19 threat and allow us to return to a more normal existence.

    In May, a lot of Israelis, including many in government and the mainstream media, eagerly promoted a treatment proposed by American Jewish doctor Vladimir ‘Zev’ Zelenko. After all, even US President Donald Trump had publicly endorsed Zelenko’s findings.

    Taking that same eagerness to less-scientific extremes is former Minister of Communications and Knesset lawmaker Ayoub Kara, a member of Israel’s Druze minority…. (Corona Cure: Israelis Told to Drink Russian Miracle Water)

    https://www.israeltoday.co.il/read/corona-cure-israelis-told-to-drink-russian-miracle-water/

  34. 34
    rhampton7 says:

    Israel today does not recognize Zelenko’s findings as truthful or accurate. There is no cure in Israel or anywhere else in this world.

  35. 35
    rhampton7 says:

    Researchers have now discovered that the concentration of the two drugs — Lopinavir and hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) — in the lungs of Covid-19 patients is not sufficient to fight the virus.

    Lopinavir is a drug against HIV while hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) is used to treat malaria and rheumatism. Both drugs were regarded as the potential agents in the fight against the coronavirus (SARS-CoV-2).

    “Previous studies have shown the inhibition of drug metabolism by systemic inflammation, we had the rationale to investigate the effect of inflammation on lopinavir and hydroxychloroquine plasma levels,” said study author Catia Marzolini from the University of Basel in Switzerland.

    Importantly, from the lopinavir and hydroxychloroquine concentrations in the plasma, the study group calculated the corresponding concentration in the lung compartment – the anatomic site of SARS-CoV-2 infection.

    The results strongly suggest that it is unlikely that both drugs reach sufficient concentrations to inhibit virus replication in the lung.

    https://www.outlookindia.com/newsscroll/researchers-discover-why-lopinavir-hcq-dont-work-on-covid19/1892488

  36. 36
    jerry says:

    Now I happen to know that Zelenko never proved such a thing and I’d be willing to bet that if KF were honest with you, he would say the same thing.

    All you done is prove that you don’t read, especially on this site. Are you an English speaker? That may be your problem.

    Zelenko has given about 30 video interviews and the NY Times story you reference is over three months old and proof that Zelenko is valid because they did zero to discredit his claims. Now do you think if the NY Times had information. that his claims were not valid, would they not have published it? He has also published his results.

    A famous line of English literature comes from Sherlock Holmes. One of the most brilliant insights into human nature ever is the following quote from Silver Blaze

    “Is there any point to which you would wish to draw my attention?’

    ‘To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time.’

    ‘The dog did nothing in the night-time.’

    ‘That was the curious incident,’ remarked Sherlock Holmes.”

    Which has led to the famous expression of the dog barking in the night. There has been no dog barking that Zelenko’s research is not valid so assume there was nothing to bark at by the NY Times. On this site we are full of dogs not barking in the night. You comment is a prime example.

  37. 37
    rhampton7 says:

    Reliable information is key to tackling any outbreak and nowhere is it more crucial than in the management of the ongoing pandemic, says Ganesan Karthikeyan, a professor of cardiology at the All India Institute of Medical Sciences, New Delhi.

    “ The consequence of all this is impaired judgement, misplaced beliefs and distorted priorities. The run on pharmacies for hydroxychloroquine (triggered by mere speculations) that we witnessed a few weeks ago is a prime example,” writes Karthikeyan.

    Level-headed advisory from institutions like the ICMR, that plasma therapy is still an experimental treatment, are lost in the din. So, it is very likely that people are, in general, convinced that the only two currently available treatments for COVID-19 are plasma therapy and remdesivir.

    But, Karthikeyan argues that a study of dexamethasone in the United Kingdom deserves prominence.

    For one, this is the first study to show an unequivocal, and large benefit in sick patients with COVID-19, on the outcomes that matter most — the risk of death and the risk of needing ventilator support.
    Second, dexamethasone is cheap and readily available, with several “branded generics” available in the Indian market.

    https://indianexpress.com/article/explained/dexamethasone-remdesivir-hydroxychloroquine-india-coronavirus-6498730/

  38. 38
    jerry says:

    RHampton continues to post his fake news.

    Have you read the research on Remdesivir and dexamethasone? My guess is no or else you would not be posting these news articles that are bogus.

    It is also showing that the people you quote are uninformed too. You are just cutting and pasting what you think is relevant information but in actuality has no relevance. So it is fake!

  39. 39
    rhampton7 says:

    Israeli police on Saturday, July 11, said they had flooded central Tel Aviv with officers and closed main thoroughfares, ahead of a rally by critics of the government’s handling of the COVID-19 crisis.

    “Hundreds of police will be deployed in a number of security cordons,” a police statement said. “The mission is protection of the participants and preservation of public order.”

    Organizers of the protests said they expected thousands of Israel’s self-employed to turn out in protest at what they say is the government’s abandonment of them after forcing their businesses to close under coronavirus regulations.

    Student unions said they would also take part in the event at the city’s Rabin Square, to show their concern at the large numbers of young people made jobless by closures.

    https://www.rappler.com/world/regions/middle-east/266326-israeli-police-brace-rally-against-corona-cash-crisis

  40. 40
    rhampton7 says:

    Lockdowns came into effect at 1 p.m. on Friday in neighborhoods in five towns and cities hit hard by the coronavirus outbreak, a day after cabinet ministers approved the measure as the number of new cases in Israel continued to surge.

    Parts of Jerusalem, Beit Shemesh, Lod, Ramle and Kiryat Malachi became “restricted zones” for seven days. The restrictions will be lifted at 8 a.m. on July 17.

    A joint statement Thursday evening by the Prime Minister’s Office and the Health Ministry said entries and exits of the restricted areas will be limited, as well as traffic and business activity inside the areas.

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/lockdowns-go-into-effect-in-neighborhoods-of-5-cities-as-virus-surges/

  41. 41
    Mac McTavish says:

    RP@21, I concur. I travel quite frequently with work. Last year I was in Australia, Singapore and Frankfurt. This year I was supposed to go to Vietnam, New Zealand and Oslo. I don’t feel sorry for myself but I can’t help but think of how many airline and airline support workers are out of work.

  42. 42
    ET says:

    There is a prophylaxis that has scientific support. But since it is based on OTC supplements no one wants to run trials to see how effective it is. Hopefully the vitamin companies step up because once demonstrated effective they have quite a bit to gain.

  43. 43
    AaronS1978 says:

    Covid wars part 342

    I’m gonna say masks actually don’t work which is why we are still skyrocketing in numbers and we believe that 65% of the particulates coming out of one mouth’s are being stopped by surgical mask

    China has still not increased in their numbers that should be a huge concern to everybody on this forum “Big red flag there”

    And we are going about trying to deal with this disease in all the wrong ways

    By the way it turns out my wife has it and I have it to, she marginally sick, I’m unaffected

    But if I tell anybody this I’m a monster and I am sending the wrong message about this disease

    The message I need to send is that everybody will die from this disease and we have to be very afraid of it

    That is the social norm currently, besides blaming trump for this over and over and over again because this is a very political disease that doesn’t affect rioters and protesters but really infect everybody who goes to a Trump rally

    There is my two cents enjoy

  44. 44
    jerry says:

    If anyone is going to post anything about Dr. Zelenko, I suggest they watch some of his interviews. Here is one done in two parts just a few days ago where he discusses in detail his approach and results. (the audio is bad in a couple places) – Part 1 – https://bit.ly/2OtwZwx Part 2 – https://bit.ly/3emuDtN

    Also here is the preprint of his results with 2200 patients. He treated about 800 of them and the rest he considered low risk and sent home to report back if things got worse. https://bit.ly/2YTjRGT

    Just about everyone who comments on this topic have been exposed to these results and ideas. Yet many do not seem to understand the results which probably means they do not read or watch the suggested information. Zelenko is not the only doctor using this protocol.

  45. 45
    ET says:

    Science says masks are effective– https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWbFF3PLnQw

    Kudos to you and your wife. Do you guys take vitamin D or get a lot of Sun? Any supplements? Just curious

  46. 46
    AaronS1978 says:

    @ET

    Not really we’re both very healthy though and she’s actually struggling with a lot of the symptoms they are mild though while I have shown none at all

    Her entire work tested positive for it and she was the last one

    I will say this and from the experience of all of my friends and what I have experienced with it is that it is persistent and it stays with you

    That is the one symptom I’ve noticed that seems to be consistent amongst everyone is that the disease lasts a while

    Another factor could be is that I am type O negative blood and that might be the reason why I am showing little to no symptoms at all and I’m almost entirely unaffected by it

    While my wife is also type o and she’s experiencing mild to no symptoms as well
    She just feels worse then me

    Another case of this was one of my friends and her mom both got the disease

    My friend was type o and showed little to no symptoms, her mom was type A, had a lot of complications to begin with and she passed

    I was skeptical at first about the blood types but after seeing it and experiencing it firsthand I think your blood type does play a huge part in how affected you are by it

  47. 47
    ET says:

    Thank you. Interesting.

  48. 48
    jerry says:

    New Zealand to quarantine people ‘for months, maybe years’ as COVID-19 rages around world – epidemiologist Michael Baker

    We’re going to have thousands of people sitting in these facilities, quarantined in isolation facilities for months, maybe years ahead.

    “Sensible risk management says when a mistake happens you figure out what went wrong, and you improve the system.”

    The latest escapee, a person in their 60s, broke the window of the Waipuna Hotel in Auckland on Friday and climbed out of the building. They then scaled the fence and began to knock on the doors of neighbouring homes.

    https://bit.ly/2Zjmj9E

    They have people locked up potentially for years. But they are one of the leaders in the world in deaths per million. Lock em up and we will look good. Is this the future that those who favor lockdowns for-see?

    Side by side – Costa Rica and Panama are adjacent countries. The death rate per million in Costa Rica is 5 and in Panama it is 200. Guess who used HCQ and who has rejected HCQ? Then there is Mexico who has also rejected HCQ. Their death rate per million is 265.

  49. 49

    .
    Jerry, perhaps it’s just me, but I think the phrasing in that article is a little misleading.

    Potentially misleading anyway.

  50. 50
    Mac McTavish says:

    UB

    Jerry, perhaps it’s just me, but I think the phrasing in that article is a little misleading.

    I think it is extremely misleading. Take this statement from the article for example:

    We’re going to have thousands of people sitting in these facilities, quarantined in isolation facilities for months, maybe years ahead.

    When I first read this I thought he was talking about quarantining individuals for months or years. Then I did a little research. The article is talking about the fact that NZ requires that people entering NZ must be quarantined for 14 days, a practice being followed by many countries. The “months to years” phrase is referring to the practice of quarantining newcomers for 14 days, not about quarantining any individuals for this the goth of time.

  51. 51
    rhampton7 says:

    A Texas doctor says a 30-year-old patient died after attending a “COVID party,” believing the coronavirus pandemic was a hoax.

    “We cared for a 30-year-old patient at Methodist Hospital who told their nurse that they had attended a ‘COVID party.’ … Just before the patient died, they looked at their nurse and said ‘I think I made a mistake. I thought this was a hoax, but it’s not,'” said Dr. Jane Appleby in a video statement obtained by USA TODAY.

    Appleby is the chief medical officer for Methodist Healthcare in San Antonio.
    Appleby said the parties are held by those skeptical of the virus and include someone who has previously tested positive. Attendees go to see “if the virus is real and if anyone gets infected.” 

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/07/11/texas-patient-30-dies-after-attending-covid-party-doctor-says/5422175002/

  52. 52
    Seversky says:

    Such deaths should be laid at the doors of the White House. The Trump administration has consistently downplayed the severity of this pandemic, has fumbled its response and more people are paying with their lives than might otherwise have been the case. I hope the people of this country hold them to account when the time comes.

  53. 53
    jerry says:

    I hope the people of this country hold them to account when the time comes.

    I assume you mean all the people who publish fake news about the lack of effectiveness of the treatments for the virus such as those highlighted in the comments posted by RHampton.

    Have you been advocating for these treatments that are effective In your comments here and with your friends?

    Then there is Dr Appleby. Did she administer the treatments at her hospital. If I was the family, I would be investigating for negligence.

    I would be suing the Democratic Party for falsely trying to say Trump said it was a hoax. Has the Democratic Party been a major contributor to all the deaths due to the virus?

  54. 54
    jerry says:

    As far as the article on New Zealand, if the author can delete it, that will be ok with me. It is apparently fake news. It was over the top. It was however a New Zealand news source.

    I find it interesting that no one commented on the second part of the comment.

  55. 55
    Retired Physicist says:

    @Seversky dozens of hospitals here in Florida and Texas are turning away patients because they are maxed out. Putin sure is getting his money’s worth.

  56. 56
    Retired Physicist says:

    I am sure there will be people who dismiss this article with ad hominem arguments about NPR, but facts are facts.

    https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/06/24/883017035/what-contact-tracing-may-tell-about-cluster-spread-of-the-coronavirus

  57. 57
    jerry says:

    dozens of hospitals here in Florida and Texas are turning away patients because they are maxed out.

    Yet facts are facts. As of today Florida has over 900 ICU beds available including 100 in your county. I did see that Nassau and Okkechobe counties are maxed out in ICU beds, each with 8 each. The lowest for beds in general is Flagler County which is down to 8% out of 112 total. Your county has nearly a 1000 beds available.

  58. 58
    kairosfocus says:

    Sev, why are you repeating a long since exploded falsehood? Mr Trump clearly was discussing UV irradiation of bronchi, which he likely had been briefed on; that has been explored and we discussed the matter here at UD weeks and weeks ago. . The loaded strawman caricature into bleach was and is falsehood that should have been prominently retracted and apologised for. Why is it that so many need to look down on “deplorables” and disdain them as ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked? Do you not see that your persistence in bigoted false accusation gives us the right to hold you as having zero credibility? KF

  59. 59
    jerry says:

    zero credibility

    No not zero, but an excellent positive indicator of the opposite of what is said.

  60. 60
    Mac McTavish says:

    KF@58, I agree that Trump was alluding to internal use of UV although, because of the strange way he strings words together, and his frequent claim that sunlight kills the virus, I can see how it could easily be misinterpreted. This being said, he did clearly and unambiguously mention injecting disinfectant.

    We could argue all day long whether or not Trump’s actions have made it worse for the US to no benefit to anyone. However, it can be concluded that whatever the US is doing has failed when compared to most of the US allies. And, because of this, the impact on lives and the economy will be more extensive than they could have been.

  61. 61
    AaronS1978 says:

    I’m gonna count how many time this thread blames trump. Btw this is China’s fault and WHO’s initial failure. Trump just follows what Fauci says. Whom he is a hypocrite There’s an awesome video of him telling everybody how they have to wear masks while he’s wearing a mask in the moment they stop recording him he takes his mask off

  62. 62
    kairosfocus says:

    MMT, the US is not to be compared to states 1/5 to 1/7 or less its size on population — and usually far more geographically compressed/compact so not needing as much distant communication, travel and transportation; if we do the aggregation (or compare states), the results become much more comparable. In addition, no-one should believe the China story. The truth is, once a pandemic broke out, large numbers of deaths were inevitable, the real issue is the dismal choice between deaths from a spiking pandemic overwhelming facilities and deaths from needless economic dislocation, with 3rd world famine deaths to follow. In addition, some serious reckoning needs to be made by health authorities and the media for unwarranted attacks on what was all along a credible prompt treatment, HCQ based cocktails. That irresponsible and in too many cases blatantly politically motivated behaviour cost a lot of lives. In particular, I am disgusted with disregard for an ethics-epistemology challenge connected to creating a gold standard for placebo based studies when a modicum of decision theory would have taught us a lot better long since. That is one of the lessons to be learned. KF

    PS: I found him clear enough, save to those determined to see him in the worst light.

  63. 63
    jerry says:

    he did clearly and unambiguously mention injecting disinfectant

    Remdesivir is a disinfectant that one injects. Highly recommended by world medical community. Actually I believe very overrated. But saw a headline today that said they had better information.

    Zinc is also an effective disinfectant when used with HCQ. Though is taken orally. Maybe we could inject both just to make the treatment more expensive.

    Trumps actual words included “like that” so he wasn’t suggesting common over the counter products but products that act similarly internally such as Remdesivir. So why bring it up and add the modifier “unambiguously” when It clearly wasn’t an appropriate modifier?

  64. 64
    jerry says:

    I have to be precise with my previous comment. Neither Remdesivir or zinc actually kill the virus. They both prevent the virus from replicating and then spreading

    The immune system is the internal disinfectant that then comes along and kills the virus. However, it is recommended by medical authorities that various things be taken to boost the immune system. Some of these are also injected as part of outpatient and hospital treatments.

    So is a vitamin C injection a disinfectant or just an additive to make the actual disinfectant more potent?

    It’s possible to get into ridiculous semantic games here when the objective should be saving lives. But the sad thing is that is not the objective as is obvious from our political environment.

  65. 65
    ET says:

    The GOVERNORs are responsible for the people in their State. That people want to blame the federal government just further exposes their ignorance.

  66. 66
    ET says:

    H2O2 is a disinfectant. And it can be injected. Of course it has to be a specific grade and then diluted. Administered only by trained medical professionals. And THAT is what Trump said. He NEVER said to administer it yourself.

  67. 67
    jerry says:

    However, it can be concluded that whatever the US is doing has failed when compared to most of the US allies.

    Five US states (New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, Connecticut and Pennsylvania) account for 64% of the deaths. They are large but certainly not the largest. California, Texas and Florida are the largest. They are not part of the 5 states which skews the US numbers.

    Which US ally did you have in mind?

  68. 68
    jerry says:

    I have amend my comment above. The 5 states account fo 49% of the deaths not 64% but only 16% of the US population. The US has over 1% official infections.

    An interesting comparison in the world is Germany with less than .25% of the population infected while France right next door has about .3% of the population Infected but three times as many deaths. On the other side of Germany is Poland With 1/2 the infections per million of Germany and an even slightly lower death rate.

    What are they doing different? Is the low infection rates in Germany and Poland especially Poland just postponing the inevitable of later infections?

  69. 69
    rhampton7 says:

    Weeks after halting a South Dakota study into effects of hydroxychloroquine on COVID-19, state officials and health system leaders continue to wait for direction from federal officials on what to do with doses that were routed here for the experiment.

    We have not received guidance from the federal government. Each of the state’s health systems received an allocation of the drug,” state Department of Health spokesman Derrick Haskins said.

    In a followup Monday, he added, “We don’t have any reason to believe that guidance will not be forthcoming.”

    https://www.keloland.com/top-stories/s-d-still-seeks-guidance-on-hydroxychloroquine/

  70. 70
    rhampton7 says:

    In a new JAMA editorial, a Boston University School of Public Health (BUSPH) researcher and a health research journalist outline common ways that media, governments, and industry and academic public relations press releases have incompletely and misleadingly reported coronavirus research, and how they can do better.

    By way of example, Saitz and Schwitzer describe how three drugs–remdesivir, dexamethasone, and hydroxychloroquine–have been touted as COVID cures, without explanations of the limits of the evidence. These rushed and incomplete announcements have led, among other consequences, to shortages, government stockpiling, and a baffled public: In the case of hydroxychloroquine, they write, “News stories and social media reports took readers on a roller coaster ride, alternately reporting efficacy, lack of efficacy, and harm, reporting dutifully on the results of each latest study.”

    Instead, Saitz and Schwitzer recommend greater caution and more detail, including highlighting limitations, specifying patient populations, and describing new findings in the larger context of previous research. It may be a hard pill to swallow, but, they write, “It is important that complexity be mentioned and considered even if it is not popular among layperson readers.”

    https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2020-07/buso-bro071320.php

  71. 71
    rhampton7 says:

    Amy V. Rapkiewicz, MD, chair and autopsy director, department of pathology, at the NYU Long Island School of Medicine in Mineola, and associates presented a series of COVID-19 autopsies with findings in the lungs, heart, kidneys, liver, and bone to add to the information surrounding prothrombotic conditions in patients with COVID-19.

    Of the 7 patients included in the case series, 4 patients were women. Patient ages ranged from 44 years to 65 years. Three patients were Hispanic, 3 were White, and 1 was Black. Asystolic arrest at home was reported in 2 patients and 2 patients were reported to be taking aspirin prior to illness.

    Before their COVID-19 diagnosis, none of the patients were taking anticoagulants; however, of the 5 hospitalized patients, all received either therapeutic or prophylactic anticoagulation. In addition, all 5 hospitalized patients were treated with at least 1 dose of azithromycin and hydroxychloroquine, and all were mechanically ventilated.

    All patients had platelet-rich thrombi in the microvasculature of the lungs, liver, kidneys, and heart, regardless of their anticoagulation treatment status. Megakaryocytes were also observed in the cardiac microvascular of all patients. Some patients had megakaryocytes in glomeruli, but the highest was noted in the lungs. All cases of megakaryocytes were linked to fibrin microthrombi in cardiac microvasculature.

    “ These findings, in conjunction with extensive platelet-fibrin micro-thrombi detected on specific staining, suggest a profound platelet response in COVID-19 that may be responsible at least in part for multi-organ failure,” the authors noted.

    https://www.hematologyadvisor.com/home/topics/thrombotic-disorders/multiple-organ-thrombi-present-in-covid19-autopsy-series/

  72. 72
    rhampton7 says:

    The drug controller general of India (DCGI) had Saturday approved itolizumab for emergency, restricted use among severe Covid-19 patients, making it the first indigenous drug to be cleared for coronavirus treatment.

    According to Shaw, the study to evaluate itolizumab’s response among Covid patients involved 30 patients, of whom 20 were given the drug and 10 served as control.

    The latter only received “best supportive care”, which included regular treatment by hospitals as well as antivirals, antibiotics, oxygen therapy, and hydroxychloroquine, where applicable. Supportive care varied across institutions. All 20 patients who were given itolizumab recovered, Mazumdar-Shaw said.

    “Apart from the 20 patients who recovered in this trial, many doctors across the country decided to use (itolizumab brand name) Alzumab, which is available in the market, just like they use tocilizumab, to save people’s lives. Over 150 people have been rescued by/benefitted from itolizumab or Alzumab (brand name), in Maharashtra, Gujarat, Delhi,” she added.

    The Biocon trial started in May and concluded 7 July. Each patient underwent treatment for a month and was monitored for cytokines, platelets, creatinine, oxygen pressure, regular vitals, etc, said Mazumdar-Shaw.

    It was observed, she added, that there was a reduced mortality rate among those who were given the drug, while three among those who hadn’t received the treatment died. The patients also showed “significantly reduced” levels of cytokines IL-2, IL-6, IL-17, and TNF alpha, which lead to inflammation and can lead to deaths of cells and tissues during an overly excited immune response.

    https://theprint.in/health/30-patients-2-months-how-biocon-claims-to-have-found-a-covid-hope-in-itolizumab/460054/

  73. 73
    rhampton7 says:

    take the promotion of hydroxychloroquine as a remedy against Covid-19 by Professor Didier Raoult in France, quickly relayed by influential people. Dr. Raoult started using hydroxychloroquine in the treatment of infectious bacterial diseases in the 1990s. He demonstrated that an antibiotic given with a dose of hydroxychloroquine is effective in treating Q fever and Whipple’s disease . So understandably, when SARS-CoV2 first hit the headlines, Raoult turned to his favorite drug, hydroxychloroquine, to try to cure patients with Covid-19. “Coronavirus, game over”, he said on a YouTube video posted on March 26, triumphantly announcing that hydroxychoroquine works.

    Unfortunately, his first clinical trial had not been double-blind randomized, which was perhaps excusable given the urgency of the situation. But his second either!

    If they had been, following the protocols generally accepted by scientists and doctors, Raoult would have quickly realized that his favorite drug has in fact no effect like the randomized double-blind studies conducted by the British (Oxford RECOVERY ) and the Americans (NIH ORCHID) have now demonstrated this. In fact, Raoult believed so much in his miracle drug that he felt it was unnecessary to follow well-oiled clinical trial protocols. He also considers these protocols useless, obsolete, and despise those who advocate them. But, in fact, as RECOVERY and OCHID have demonstrated, they have the annoying habit of often providing clear answers as to the effectiveness (or in this case ineffectiveness) of a drug.

    These examples raise the question: is science entirely the rational pursuit that scientists claim it is, or is there some influence from other factors? The fact is that science does not work in a vacuum. The data can be ambiguous, leaving room for interpretation, but the context also plays a role. Professor Raoult’s early success with hydroxychloroquine against certain bacterial infections could have led him to draw premature conclusions concerning the effect of his favorite drug on SARS-CoV2.

    https://www.europeanscientist.com/fr/opinion/la-science-sous-influence/

  74. 74
    rhampton7 says:

    Governor Kim Reynolds has released a video message to Iowans, urging them to voluntarily wear a mask and practice other public health measures to prevent the spread of COVID-19

    “COVID-19 is far from over and I don’t want to go backwards. I don’t want to reverse the progress that we’ve made since the pandemic began and that’s why I’m again asking for your help,” Reynolds said. “I believe in Iowans and I know that we can continue to step up and take personal responsibility, not because it’s mandated, but because it’s the right thing to do.”

    “So let’s step up, Iowa,” Reynolds says in the video. “Protecting yourself means you’re protecting yourself, your family members, your co-workers and your fellow Iowans.”

    “ Each and every one of us has it in our power to slow the spread of COVID-19,” Reynolds said in today’s video statement. “That’s how we’ll keep Iowans safe and healthy, keep our economy up and running and keep our state moving forward.”

    https://kiwaradio.com/local-news/as-covid-19-cases-rise-gov-urges-iowans-to-step-up-take-personal-responsibility/

  75. 75
    rhampton7 says:

    Gov. Tate Reeves said Mississippi is in the middle of a COVID-19 spike. “This is the worst it has ever been for the spread of cases in our state. It is the most stressed our hospitals have been,” Reeves said. Right now, there is a backlash against coronavirus mitigation. It’s understandable. The sky is falling predictions of the spring were not realized.”

    Reeves said he understands why people are skeptical, but the science is there to support wearing a mask in public.

    “We’ve looked at every available tool and I promise you this this is the best weapon that we have. It’s not fun, but it’s a hell of a lot better than widespread shutdowns and if we don’t do something, that’s where we’re headed,” Reeves said.

    “Every Mississippian has to get through their own head that this is the right thing to do. Are we going to get 100 percent compliance? No. But if we get 80 or 90 percent, it will go a long way,” Reeves said. “Right now, there seems there is a good number of people who have resigned themselves to spreading the virus. Or they believe it is not real. I hear that all the time. I’m telling you, it is real. It is very real. You can see it in our death toll.”

    https://www.wapt.com/article/covid-19-spread-this-is-the-worst-it-has-ever-been-governor-says/33301499

  76. 76
    rhampton7 says:

    “At every store, it’s no shirt, no shoes, no mask, no service,” Kentucky Gov. Andy Beshear said Sunday. “This is just where we are in our battle as Americans and as Kentuckians against COVID-19.”

    The governor intoned the seriousness of the pandemic Sunday, two days after making it mandatory for Kentuckians to wear face masks when out in public.

    “Folks, this is serious. So what we need everybody to do is wear that mask. It’s a requirement, just like wearing your seatbelt,” Beshear said.

    https://www.wlwt.com/article/gov-beshear-to-kentuckians-no-mask-no-service/33298221

  77. 77
    rhampton7 says:

    Gov. Asa Hutchinson on Monday (July 13) began his daily COVID-19 briefing, which would focus on the need for Arkansans to wear masks, by acknowledging that former U.S. Sen. David Pryor and wife Barbara have the virus, with Sen. Pryor in the hospital and Barbara at home.

    The governor quickly transitioned why more people should wear masks, saying that “all of Arkansas should sense the urgency” of wearing masks, socially distancing and doing other things to contain the virus. That urgency, he noted, also comes as the state is just a few weeks from opening schools.

    “[A] mask is the one tool that we have to reduce the spread of the virus, to be able to give ourselves the ability to be out and to move in public without spreading the virus. The mask is something that we want to continue to impress upon Arkansans that that will make a difference for us,” the governor said.

    https://talkbusiness.net/2020/07/sen-david-pryor-and-wife-positive-for-covid-19-gov-hutchinson-notes-sense-of-urgency-to-wear-masks/

  78. 78
    jerry says:

    And I asked are masks harmful? https://bit.ly/2CvpJ0l

  79. 79
    rhampton7 says:

    Louisiana’s COVID-19 cases and hospitalizations continued to rise today as Gov. John Bel Edwards’ statewide mask mandate took effect.

    Edwards’ new order requires the public to wear masks indoors and outside and closes bars to all traffic other than curbside pickup.

    “We need you to do what’s right, and what’s right is wearing a mask,” Edwards said. “We’re doing everything we can to not go back to Phase 1 or Phase Zero, especially as we’re preparing to reopen schools safely (in August). We need people to comply.”

    https://www.leesvilledailyleader.com/news/20200713/as-covid-19-cases-rise-edwards-urges-public-to-wear-masks

  80. 80
    rhampton7 says:

    Those governors are talking to you, and people like you, Jerry.

  81. 81
    Mac McTavish says:

    Jerry

    And I asked are masks harmful?

    Nice sensationalist, and bogus, broadcasting. Basic physics. What is the average volume of air exhaled? 2 litres? 3? What is the volume of exhaled air entrained behind a mask? 10 ml? 20 ml?

    If you have serious concerns about CO2 and masks, might I suggest that you insist that your surgeon not wear a mask the next time you require surgery.

  82. 82
    jerry says:

    Nice sensationalist, and bogus, broadcasting. Basic physics. What is the average volume of air exhaled? 2 litres? 3? What is the volume of exhaled air entrained behind a mask? 10 ml? 20 ml?

    revealing answer. You don’t know what is being breathed in and neither do I. Nor does anyone else which is why I know you do not know. The demonstration was a little over the top but was it inaccurate?

    But the concentration is obviously much higher in CO2. The question is this harmful? How long a time. can the mask be worn without being harmful? 30 minutes, 2 hours, 4 hours or 8 hours? Would you want children to wear them all day at school? People with breathing problems?

    How long should we continue to wears masks since by using them we are postponing the time when the virus will be harmless? A year? Two years? Forever?

  83. 83
    jerry says:

    Those governors are talking to you, and people like you, Jerry.

    . Are they? I doubt it. They’re politicians worried about perceptions not well being.

    You never answered my question to you about masks. Even if they prevent the number of cases in the short run, is that good? Are they just postponing the time when the virus is gone? Do we all have to get the virus before that happens? Or enough of us that we can go back to normal lives? What is the tradeoff to society of postponing the time before the end of the virus? We all know that the evidence is that postponing normal life is devastating for many.

  84. 84
    Mac McTavish says:

    Jerry

    The demonstration was a little over the top but was it inaccurate?

    Yes it was. CO2 is high in the few mls of exhaled air entrained in the mask after an exhalation. Air that was entrained because the monitor created a void for this air to hang out rather than passing through the mask as it normally would. When you inhale, you take a couple litres of clean air into your lungs. This dilutes any trapped air by several orders of magnitude before it enters the lung. This will bring it to levels barely distinguishable from the CO2 levels in the air.

    And this completely ignores the fact that the monitor used does not function properly under turbulent conditions.

  85. 85
    kairosfocus says:

    MMT, I have had effectively lifelong breathing challenges. I struggle to wear masks for any length of time; they are debilitating. I notice cashiers and others with the same struggle. There is a reason for all those masks pulled down below the nose or under the chin. That is conformed by people doing heavy physical labour who are far more robust than I am. KF

    PS: I suggest to you that you are overlooking a second order effect. The CO2 retention problem is not confined to a pocket between mask and face, but relates to air not expelled as usual from lungs and especially bronchi. As I recall, CO2 conc in that zone is tied to the breathing reflex. There is likely to be inadequate, relatively ineffective respiration and that would have knock on metabolic effects. You are taking a vital system out of spec for prolonged periods, day after day after day. That can have not so good effects. Remember what just climbing a mountain can do.

  86. 86
    kairosfocus says:

    U/D:
    https://twitter.com/BjornLomborg/status/1251843646879563776

    >>Bjorn Lomborg
    @BjornLomborg
    ·
    Apr 19
    The Oxford University Centre for Evidence-Based Medicine has updated its estimates of the fatality of corona:

    – Case Fatality Rate is likely between 0.1-0.36%

    https://cebm.net/covid-19/global-covid-19-case-fatality-rates/
    Image>>

    If so, comparable to flu
    KF

  87. 87
    Mac McTavish says:

    KF, yes, masks are uncomfortable and take getting used to. As are seatbelts. But that is no reason not to wear them. And we are just talking about cloth masks, not N95s. During the winter we think nothing about putting scarves over our mouth and nose and partaking in outdoor activities. And I haven’t heard of anyone collapsing from CO2 toxicity.

    But your argument is just a red herring. Even in jurisdictions that have mandated masks, they make exemptions for people with pre-existing respiratory issues. There is zero risk from CO2 for an otherwise healthy person. On the other hand, if I had a respiratory problem, I would be avoiding going into stores wherever possible.

  88. 88
    ET says:

    Yes, walk around with an oxygen talk and mask

  89. 89
    rhampton7 says:

    As of yet, the only trial in the world that produced actionable results is the UK’s Recovery trial, White says. More than 11,000 patients in NHS hospitals were enrolled in the hydroxychloroquine trial, and no clinical benefit was found. Another arm of this trial has also yielded solid evidence that the cheap steroid dexamethasone cuts deaths in hospitalised patients on ventilators by a third, making its use commonplace in the most serious cases – at least in the UK. Another two studies, one of 821 patients and the second of 2300 people, have also found no significant benefit of treating patients with hydroxychloroquine.

    Still, the drug’s role in this pandemic may not be over. White’s trial, COPCOV, which was also temporarily halted but is now back up and running, is testing the efficacy of hydroxychloroquine to prevent Covid-19 in the first place, rather than treating severely sick hospitalised patients.

    While COPCOV restarted after the Lancet study was retracted, many other trials didn’t. There’s no other evidence of harm from taking hydroxychloroquine, White says. But instead many health agencies didn’t resume halted trials, switching their reasoning from the potential harm of the drug to suggest that it doesn’t work, which, he says, ‘is strange at best’.

    ‘Most things were damaged by Covid-19 but not bureaucracy,’ White adds. ‘Despite all the fine words from country leaders and governments,’ he says, ‘the process itself has been very slow.’

    https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/does-hydroxychloroquine-still-have-a-role-to-play-in-this-pandemic/4012135.article

  90. 90
    rhampton7 says:

    HCQ is obviously not a panacea for severe cases of Covid-19. Given early, it helps reduce mortality by about half, compared to those not given HCQ. In India the drug is widely available and not expensive. A number of Indian states have already incorporated a short course of HCQ in their Covid-19 treatment protocol, and states that have not done so will do well to implement this quickly.
    Two other therapies for mortality reduction are a short course of dexamethasone and convalescent plasma. Indian physicians have a golden opportunity to use the three modalities in sequence – dexamethasone in those who do not improve with early use of HCQ and convalescent plasma for those who do not improve with dexamethasone. The outcome of this treatment sequence will inform the medical community how to save many lives.

    https://indianexpress.com/article/explained/coronavirus-vaccine-hydroxychloroquine-hcq-covid-19-treatment-6504276/

  91. 91
    rhampton7 says:

    Rosendaal’s scathing review echoes many of the same criticisms made by outside scientists following the study’s publication. In particular, he condemns the decision by Raoult’s team to exclude from the study’s final results six patients who took hydroxychloroquine, including four whose condition worsened, one of whom eventually died during the study period (none in the control group died). There were also other inconsistencies, such as supplemental material mentioning that a number of asymptomatic patients were included for study while the study’s actual language claimed that it was an examination of hospitalized patients (people without symptoms are unlikely to have been hospitalized for covid-19).

    These and other problems with the data were enough to make the study “nearly if not completely uninformative,” Rosendaal wrote. The overly rosy tone of the paper in promoting hydroxychloroquine as a covid-19 treatment is not only unfounded, he added, “but, given the desperate demand for a treatment for Covid-19, coupled with the potentially serious side-effects of hydroxychloroquine, fully irresponsible.”

    Another new paper, also published yesterday, similarly criticizes the French study, noting that “this trial has several major methodological issues, including the design, outcome measure and the statistical analyses.”

    Though it seems like the major fallout from this research has come and gone, with most countries no longer enthusiastic about hydroxychloroquine and other drugs that have shown promise for treating covid-19 now available, its repercussions may linger far longer.

    https://gizmodo.com/all-the-ways-the-influential-hydroxychloroquine-study-w-1844378680

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924857920302260

    https://forbetterscience.com/2020/03/26/chloroquine-genius-didier-raoult-to-save-the-world-from-covid-19/

  92. 92
    jerry says:

    RHampton,

    This is the wrong site for your posts. They should be on the Lancet retraction page.

    https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/retraction-watch-lancet-hydroxychloroquine-editorial-retracted-and-replaced/

    That way you can retract most of the comments you wrote especially those on HCQ including the fake news stuff you just published. Where do you find this nonsense?

  93. 93
    rhampton7 says:

    In a study published in the journal Cell Press Sneak Peak, researchers from the HU and New York’s Mount Sinai Medical Center have focused on the ways in which the COVID-19 changes patients’ lungs in order to reproduce itself.

    The main finding was that the virus prevents the routine burning of carbohydrates, and as a result, large amounts of fat accumulate inside lung cells, a condition the virus needs in order to reproduce.

    According to the team, this new understanding of the virus may help explain why patients with high blood sugar and cholesterol levels are often at a high risk.

    By screening FDA-approved medications that interfere with the virus’ ability to reproduce, the team found that the cholesterol-lowering drug Fenofibrate (sold as Tricor) showed extremely promising results.

    It was found that by allowing lung cells to burn more fat, Fenofibrate breaks the virus’ grip on these cells, and prevents virus’ ability to reproduce.

    Thus, within only five days of treatment, the virus almost completely disappeared.

    “This course of treatment could potentially downgrade the virus’ severity into nothing worse than a common cold,” the researchers concluded.

    http://www.xinhuanet.com/engli.....212618.htm

  94. 94
    rhampton7 says:

    Mississippi Gov. Tate Reeves (R) threw cold water on the notion of defeating the coronavirus pandemic with “herd immunity,” saying Monday that states’ health systems would be overwhelmed long before reaching that point.

    Reeves said in a Twitter thread that in Mississippi alone, the hospital system has “started to become stressed to the point of pain” at 36,680 confirmed cases and conservatively estimated that herd immunity would require 40 percent of the population to become infected, which he said would require more than 3,000 new cases daily for the next year.

    “We would need to TRIPLE our worst day-every day-for a year,” Reeves tweeted. “I’m not one of these guys that immediately dismisses any idea that challenges the expert status quo talking points. I’m pretty skeptical by nature. That’s healthy. But herd immunity is not anything like a realistic solution in the short or mid-term. I wish it was.”

    https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/507208-mississippis-gop-governor-herd-immunity-is-not-anything-like-a-realistic

  95. 95
    rhampton7 says:

    Texas reported a small drop in COVID-19 hospitalizations on Monday, the first decline in two weeks as health officials work to slow the spread of the disease.

    The state said 10,405 people were hospitalized with lab-confirmed infections, down from a high of 10,410 on Sunday. While the decline itself was minimal, the overall growth of hospitalizations has been slowing for several days now, a possible early sign that the state’s surge is beginning to weaken.

    “We need to see if this first day will be the first of many,” Gov. Greg Abbott cautioned in an interview on KXAS in Dallas.

    https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/texas/article/Texas-COVID-19-hospitalizations-drop-first-time-15405482.php

  96. 96
    rhampton7 says:

    Positive COVID-19 cases, hospitalizations and ICU admissions are on the rise in Indiana, yet the virus death rate has decreased in the state.

    Positive tests are up. The state’s site said it has a 9.1% positive rate as of Monday. The state was seeing about 4 to 5%.

    “This can suggest that there is an increased prevalence or an increased number of individuals with coronavirus in the community,” said Grannis.

    The number of coronavirus deaths have decreased in Indiana. The state reported two over the weekend, but infectious disease experts say while that is good, it shouldn’t be taken as a sign people can slow precautions.

    “So far, we’ve already seen around 2,500 deaths in just under 18 weeks of COVID-19,” said Kelley. “That is almost 20 times as many deaths as we saw during the flu season.”

    https://fox59.com/news/coronavirus/covid-19-cases-hospitalizations-icu-admissions-increase-in-indiana/

  97. 97
    kairosfocus says:

    MMT, mere discomfort is not what I am talking about; which should be obvious. I am speaking, quite explicitly, about debilitating respiratory deficit, likely tied to excess retained CO2 and other things. I am speaking of people whose health is a lot more robust than mine having to stop working physically at accustomed level, even forced to take days off to recover. I am talking about cashiers who reach a point where they are losing concentration and stop wearing their masks effectively in order to do their job accurately and speedily. And this is no surprise, over the past 100+ years, we have known that forcing troops to resort to protective gear especially for breathing (gas masks) drastically reduces their effectiveness. So, no, this is no red herring. It is a factor that explains some of the refusal to wear masks. Yes, there is need to look at things like masks, gloves and face shields etc but they are not a panacea. Likewise, on track record of corona viruses I think the jury is out on a long term effective vaccine. My thought is, we need to recognise that reducing the peakiness and moving to herd immunity is where we are going to end up . . . so, the ideal is a large number of mild cases that build up herd immunity (much as we treat colds and flu), with treatments to reduce likelihood of complications and if that fails, effective management of serious cases. Eventually, CV19 is going to be another wrinkle on the common cold. KF

    PS: I specifically include that all along there was reasonable evidence of the effectiveness of HCQ-based cocktails and similar drugs [esp Ivermectin]. The unbalanced coverage in the media and the resort to gold standard fallacies on placebos will have to be addressed. There is a lurking ethics-epistemology challenge and unresponsiveness to commonplace decision theory results speaks volumes.

  98. 98
    rhampton7 says:

    Due to the continued rise in coronavirus cases, the government will roll out new restrictions within the next two days, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said on Wednesday.

    Among the new potential directives: gatherings capped at 10 people, closing beachfronts, synagogues and yeshivot, reducing public transportation, allowing restaurants only to open for delivery and determining if shopping centers and stores can be open based on their risk of infection.

    Netanyahu admitted Wednesday night that the government made a mistake in the way it reopened the economy after the original closure during the first wave of the virus: “The opening of the banquet halls and large gatherings … these things lead to a disaster and raise the level of morbidity,” he said. “So, our guidelines will be very strict about gatherings.”
    The expected plan was shared by Israeli media on the backdrop of a briefing Wednesday by Health Minister Yuli Edelstein, who said that the country could have to take steps toward a closure within the next three or four days if the coronavirus does not stop spreading.

    https://www.jpost.com/health-science/edelstein-will-know-if-country-needs-total-lockdown-within-four-days-635195

  99. 99
    rhampton7 says:

    Oklahoma Gov. Kevin Stitt, who has aggressively pushed to reopen his state and flouted experts’ health recommendations, announced Wednesday that he is the first governor to test positive for coronavirus.

    Dr. Lance Frye, the commissioner of the Oklahoma State Department of Health, said they don’t know exactly when Stitt was infected, but that it would’ve been within the last couple of weeks.
    Asked if he would impose a statewide mandate for residents in light of diagnosis, Stitt said he’s “not thinking about a mask mandate at all.”
    “I know that some businesses are mandating masks and that’s great. But you can’t pick and choose what freedoms you’re going to give people. So if the businesses want to do it, if some local municipalities want to do it, that’s fine. But again, we also respect people’s rights to stay home if they want, to run their businesses, or to not wear a mask,” Stitt said.

    Stitt also reiterated that he is not planning to roll back any of the state’s reopening plans at this time.

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/15/politics/kevin-stitt-oklahoma-governor-coronavirus/index.html

  100. 100
    rhampton7 says:

    Gov. Tom Wolf announced broad new statewide restrictions on bars and restaurants and larger indoor gatherings Wednesday as Pennsylvania reported another nearly 1,000 new infections, continuing a recent resurgence of COVID-19 in parts of the state.

    Nightclubs will be shut down, bars will also be closed unless they also offer dine-in meals, and bars and restaurants will be limited to 25% capacity.

    Indoor events and gatherings of more than 25 people will be prohibited, as well as outdoor gatherings of more than 250. And businesses will be required to have their employees work remotely to the extent possible.

    “This is the virus speaking,” he says. “The virus is making the rules here, we’re just trying to anticipate what those rules are and doing what we can to reduce the risk that virus is going to do a lot of damage to Pennsylvania.”

    https://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2020/07/15/gov-tom-wolf-coronavirus-mitigation-efforts/

  101. 101
    rhampton7 says:

    Gov. Kay Ivey during a joint news conference Wednesday morning announced a statewide mask mandate as Alabama continues to grapple with alarming COVID-19 infection rates.

    The order requires everyone in the state older than 6 to wear a mask in public areas while interacting within six feet of people from another household. This order goes into effect at 5 p.m. Thursday and will be in place until July 31.

    The governor said that while violating the mask mandate could bring a $500 fine and jail time, the goal is to inform people of the need to wear face coverings to protect against the virus spread and not to collect fines or to jail violators.

    “We’re pleading with the people of Alabama to wear a mask,” Ivey said.

    As caseloads increase, 30 hospitals across the state are reporting limited or no ICU space, with only 12 percent of intensive care hospital beds available for new patients.

    “We’re almost to the point where our hospital ICUs are overwhelmed,” Ivey said during the news conference.

    https://www.fox10tv.com/news/coronavirus/gov-ivey-announces-statewide-mask-mandate-to-combat-covid-19-in-alabama/article_4d785ff4-c6a1-11ea-82c3-1f13971cd1bb.html

  102. 102
    rhampton7 says:

    Target, CVS and the grocery chain Publix on Thursday announced new policies requiring customers to wear masks, as the retail world takes new steps to try to slow the novel coronavirus pandemic amid an explosion of cases.

    Meantime, Arkansas became the latest to put forth a statewide mandate on wearing masks in indoor public areas.
    Their moves came a day after Walmart, Kroger and Kohl’s announced similar new policies, and Alabama, Montana and the city of Tulsa enacted new mandates for facial coverings.

    But agreement on the need for masks is not universal, as Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp (R) on Wednesday issued an order nullifying all local mask mandates, and a Utah county commission meeting was canceled after anti-mask protesters caused it to devolve into chaos.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/16/coronavirus-live-updates-us/

  103. 103
    rhampton7 says:

    An Ohio Army veteran died of the coronavirus just two months after he publicly condemned the use of face masks in an online social media post.

    According to his obituary, Richard Rose III, of Port Clinton, died at home on July 4 of complications related to the coronavirus. He was 37.

    The veteran, who served in the U.S. Army for nine years with two tours in Iraq and Afghanistan, was adamant about not wearing a face mask amid the pandemic, calling the precaution just part of the “hype” in an April 28 Facebook post.

    “Let me make this clear. I’m not buying a f—king mask,” Rose wrote. “I’ve made it this far by not buying into that damn hype.”

    https://people.com/health/ohio-veteran-refused-mask-dies-coronavirus/

  104. 104
    JVL says:

    Georgia Governor Brian Kemp yesterday issued an executive order that overturns local mask-wearing requirements.

    Kemp’s executive order says that “any state, county, or municipal law, order, ordinance, rule, or regulation that requires persons to wear face coverings, masks, face shields, or any other Personal Protective Equipment while in places of public accommodation or on public property are suspended to the extent that they are more restrictive than this Executive Order.”

    Kemp, a Republican, issued the order despite evidence that masks are an effective tool in fighting the COVID-19 pandemic. Wearing masks is one of several important steps people can take to limit the spread of coronavirus, among others, such as hand-washing and social distancing. Kemp acknowledges that, as his executive order says, “all residents and visitors of the State of Georgia are strongly encouraged to wear face coverings as practicable while outside their homes or place of residence, except when eating, drinking, or exercising outdoors.” Kemp also went on a tour of various cities to encourage mask wearing, but he has said, “we don’t need a government mandate to do the right thing.”

    https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/07/georgias-republican-governor-orders-cities-to-stop-requiring-masks/

  105. 105
    rhampton7 says:

    Governor Jared Polis announced he’s imposing a mandatory mask or face covering law starting at midnight July 16 for everyone age 10 and older when in indoor public places. Those who have medical conditions that prevent wearing a mask are exempt.

    By refusing to wear a mask in a place where other people gather, violators will be subject to citation under the state’s trespassing order.

    “We have a choice in Colorado,” he said, “either more mask-wearing or more damage to our economy and loss of life. Wearing a mask is not a political statement. I don’t know how it became a game of political football. The virus doesn’t care what political party you’re in. The virus is the virus and it is a threat to every single one of us.”

    https://www.csindy.com/TheWire/archives/2020/07/16/gov-polis-imposes-statewide-face-covering-order

  106. 106
    rhampton7 says:

    A top Federal Reserve official is calling on Americans to wear masks, saying the practice can have crucial benefits for the future of the economic recovery, even as masks fan political flames normally avoided by the central bank at all costs.
    “We’re confident that masks work, and if you want to reopen the economy faster, you want to get people back on planes and in stores,” Robert Kaplan, president of the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas, said in an interview with The Washington Post. “Part of my job, I believe, is to call it out.”

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/07/17/fed-masks-economy/

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