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News-watch: yet another incident of mass violence in FL, USA — where is this nihilism coming from?

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First, condolences and prayers for victims and families.

Daily Mail has a useful header that seems to capture key themes to ponder as we head into the weekend:

These was of course — within minutes — the usual talking point exchange on firearms, gun-free [= target-rich] zones, mental illness and effects of certain antidepressants, affiliations (Antifa and Islamism have also been suggested and there is a picture of him in a MAGA hat) and the like, etc.

U/D: My email inbox has a link to Townhall that points to a claim that “Leon County law enforcement sources told the Tallahassee Democrat that they could not find information linking Cruz, 19, to the Republic of Florida Militia, as first reported by the group’s self-proclaimed leader Jordan Jereb.” So, that one is a bit of a mystery.

My own view is that there need to be mental illness facilities that can effectively detain potentially violent inmates, that we do need to look at effects of drugs and that schools, organisations and public meetings need oversight by an organised, armed civilian marshal corps. Including churches. I have even suggested the Tavor in semi-automatic form and a 6.5 mm Grendel loading, and would add 9 mm pistols where such would be a better fit. That coach should never have been forced to try to use his body as a shield. Obviously, one guard was not enough. Where, too, four or five people (at least two armed), would credibly be able to take down such a would-be shooter in a case where “when seconds count, the police are minutes away.”

While I am at it, if he was repeatedly reported (including to the FBI), was expelled and in a school for the troubled, how was he able to organise and carry out such an attack?

However, we need more.

What is it that is eating out our civilisation and is sending the message to those on the fringes that instead of cherishing one’s neighbour one can view and treat one’s neighbour as little more than a target. Perhaps, all too literally.

Let me add a remark by Pat Buchanan, which points to a further factor:

>>While this massacre may be a product of mental illness, it is surely a product of moral depravity. For this was premeditated and plotted, done in copycat style to the mass killings to which this country has become all too accustomed.

Nikolas Cruz thought this through. He knew it was Valentine’s Day. He brought his fully loaded AR-15 with extra magazines and smoke grenades to the school that had expelled him. He set off a fire alarm, knowing it would bring students rushing into crowded halls where they would be easy to kill. He then escaped by mixing in with fleeing students.

The first ingredient, then, was an icy indifference toward human life and a willingness to slaughter former fellow students to deliver payback for whatever it was Cruz believed had been done to him at Douglas High.

In his case, the conscience was dead, or was buried beneath hatred, rage or resentment at those succeeding where he had failed. He had been rejected, cast aside, expelled. This would be his revenge, and it would be something for Douglas High and the nation to see – and never forget.

Indeed, it seems a common denominator of the atrocities to which we have been witness in recent years is that the perpetrators are nobodies who wish to die as somebodies.

If a sense of grievance against those perceived to have injured them is the goad that drives misfits like Cruz to mass murder, the magnet that draws them to it is infamy. Infamy is their shortcut to immortality.>>

Maybe, we need to ponder a point raised by Bryan, in the 1920’s — though it will doubtless excite ire in some quarters:

>>Darwinism leads to a denial of God. Nietzsche carried Darwinism to its logical conclusion and it made him the most extreme of anti-Christians . . . . As the [First World] war [of 1914 – 1918] progressed I [William Jennings Bryan was from 1913 – 1915 the 41st US Secretary of State, under President Wilson] became more and more impressed with the conviction that the German propa-ganda rested upon a materialistic foundation. I se-cured the writings of Nietzsche and found in them a defense, made in advance, of all the cruelties and atrocities practiced by the militarists of Germany. [It didn’t start with the Nazis!] Nietzsche tried to substitute the worship of the “Su-perman” for the worship of God. He not only re-jected the Creator, but he rejected all moral standards. He praised war and eulogized hatred because it led to war. He denounced sympathy and pity as attributes unworthy of man. He believed that the teachings of Christ made degenerates and, logical to the end, he regarded Democracy as the refuge of weaklings. He saw in man nothing but an animal and in that animal the highest virtue he recognized was “The Will to Power”—a will which should know no let or hin-drance, no restraint or limitation . . . . His philosophy, if it is worthy the name of philos-ophy, is the ripened fruit of Darwinism — and a tree is known by its fruit . . . .

The corroding influence of Darwinism has spread as the doctrine has been increasingly accepted. In the American preface to “The Glass of Fashion” these words are to be found: “Darwinism not only justifies the sensualist at the trough and Fashion at her glass; it justifies Prussianism at the cannon’s mouth and Bol-shevism at the prison-door. If Darwinism be true, if Mind is to be driven out of the universe and accident accepted as a sufficient cause for all the majesty and glory of physical nature, then there is no crime or vio-lence, however abominable in its circumstances and however cruel in its execution, which cannot be justi-fied by success, and no triviality, no absurdity of Fash-ion which deserves a censure: more — there is no act of disinterested love and tenderness, no deed of self- sac-rifice and mercy, no aspiration after beauty and excel-lence, for which a single reason can be adduced in logic.” [The Menace of Darwinism, pp. 52 – 54. Emphases and explanatory parentheses added.]>>

Is this one root of what we are seeing? This is worth pondering, too. For, nihilism, surely, is not distilling itself out of thin air and imposing itself on us. END

PS: As it has come up, some BBC numbers, c 2007 when policy on holding the 50 rounds at home changed:

PPS: Here is an illustration on how Israeli Teachers protect their charges in loco parentis:

Are Israeli Teachers armed? Notice two adults, one on obvious overwatch for an outing carrying an instantly recognisable US WW2 issue/era M1 carbine [not a likely equipment for a security guard or a soldier on active duty], the other interacting more closely with the children. And of course we do not know if the second adult has a concealed weapon. This image is of course scoffed at, but it makes the point — armed overwatch, some open, some not.
Comments
How Many Lives Are Saved by Guns - and Why Don’t Gun Controllers Care?
[snip] As to defensives uses of guns, the CDC report said, “Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was ‘used’ by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies. … Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year, in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008.” Criminologist and researcher Gary Kleck, using his own commissioned phone surveys and number extrapolation, estimates that Americans use guns for defensive purposes 1.2 million times each year — and that 1 in 6 Americans who have used guns defensively believe someone would have died but for their ability to resort to their defensive use of firearms. Twenty years ago economist John Lott, author of “More Guns, Less Crime,” and his research partner wrote: “We find that allowing citizens to carry concealed weapons deters violent crimes and it appears to produce no increase in accidental deaths. If those states which did not have right-to-carry concealed gun provisions had adopted them in 1992, approximately 1,570 murders; 4,177 rapes; and over 60,000 aggravated assaults would have been avoided yearly.” [snip] Third, many on the left want to ban the “mentally ill” from obtaining firearms. Currently firearms cannot be legally possessed by someone determined by a judge to be of danger to himself or to others. What about people who do not meet that standard? It was the left, most prominently the American Civil Liberties Union, that in the 1970s successfully pushed to end “involuntary commitment” for those who do not meet that standard. Bruce Ennis became legal director of the ACLU in 1977 and was known as the father of the “mental health bar.” In 1974 he said, “My personal goal is either to abolish involuntary commitment or to set up so many procedural roadblocks and hurdles that it will be difficult, if not impossible, for the state to commit people against their will.”
Key takeaways: Defensive use of guns reduces victim injury, and reduces murders, rapes, and aggravated assaults by thousands per year. It is the liberal left, the ACLU, that has made it near impossible to keep guns out of the hands of the mentally ill. Further 2nd amendment infringements won't change the ACLU's enabling of the mentally ill to get guns and would increase rapes, murders and aggravated assault.Charles
March 6, 2018
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What You Need To Know About The 1994 Assault Weapons Ban To PREVENT Another One
[snip] For the six years from 1999 to 2004 when the ban was lifted, 52,214,932 background checks were conducted. For the first six years after the ban was lifted (2005 to 2010), 71,319,676 background checks were conducted. If each background check represents one gun, 19 million more guns were purchased in the six years after the ban than during the last six years of the ban. This makes intuitive sense: when guns are banned, fewer guns are sold; when the ban is lifted more guns are sold. But is it the number of guns we care about or what people are doing with those guns? You compare the data on background checks — your reference point for gun sales — to the FBI’s data on what people were doing with those guns for 1997 to 2001, 2002 to 2006, and 2007 to 2011. While you’re at it, you look at what the FBI says people were doing with rifles specifically since there were a principal target of the ban. The FBI says that during the last six years of the ban, firearms were used to kill 54,468 people, 2,483 of whom were killed with a rifle. During the first six years after the ban — with 19 million more guns on the street — the FBI says firearms were used to kill 58,065 people, 2,432 of whom were killed with a rifle. What? More people were killed with a rifle during the ban than after the ban? Could it be the assault [rifle] ban made no difference to homicide by rifle? Why, yes, yes it could. And with 19 million more guns on the street after the ban, there were only 3,597 additional firearms homicides? Could it be that limiting guns had very little impact on limiting total firearms homicides? Why, yes, yes it could. You realize that during the last six years of the ban, there was one gun murder for every 959 guns whereas during the first six years after the ban, there was one gun murder for every 1,228 guns. Well, you’re right to wonder, if there were more guns but fewer firearms homicides per gun, what was everybody doing with all those extra guns? They certainly weren’t using them to murder more people. Could this help to explain the steady drop in violent crime rates that has continued since 2004? Could it be that people are using those extra guns to defend themselves and to deter and prevent all kinds of violent crime? Why, yes, yes it could. You need to tell your mother. Especially if she looks like Dianne Feinstein.
After the assault rifle ban ended, 19,104,744 more firearms were purchased than during the ban, but the murder rate went down from 1 murder per 959 guns during the ban to 1 murder per 1,228 guns after the ban. Increased gun ownership did not correlate to an increase in murders by gun. During the assault rifle ban 2,483 people were killed with a rifle. After the assualt rifle ban ended, 2,432 people were killed with a rifle. Banning assault rifles did not correlate to a reduction in murder by rifle.Charles
March 6, 2018
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Molson Bleu @ 183
So, your right to have no rules placed on your ownership of an AR15....
I'm already restricted from purchasing fully automatic firearms, or magazine capacities greater than 30 rounds, or supressors, or carry concealed or open in every state. My right to use my otherwise lawful firearms to defend myself is further restricted by "gun free zones". And I'm already subject to background checks, waiting periods, and permits in some cases.
... is more important than a school kid’s chance of attaining an age where he can buy an AR15.
You argue from a false premise. There is no cause and effect that school kids won't live to buy AR15s if AR15s aren't further restricted. They live and buy them today, under existing restrictions. And they are a thousand fold more likely to die from texting and driving than from a mass shooting, but you don't really care about saving those lives, do you. That's just more of your "snake oil" speech that needs to be limited. The problem you refuse to acknowledge is that a rare few use AR15s unlawfully because the government doesn't enforce laws already on the books, doesn't act on tips, doesn't enter past violent behavior into background databases, doesn't harden the schools taxpayers have already paid for, doesn't engage an active shooter even after backup arrives, and doesn't put an end to the bullying that triggers these kids in the first place. Further infringing on my AR15 rights won't change any of that. But your "snake oil" would get more people killed. School kids who think they're protected by your "sensible limits" will die because the root causes continued to be ignored instead of corrected. Your "sensible limits" are actually depraved indifference on your part to the deaths you'll cause. You don't get to falsely yell "fire" to stampede people and you don't get to falsely accuse lawful gun owners of being responsible for the governments' failings and unlawful kids. If your "sensible limits" on gun ownership to prevent school shootings were offered as a prospectus seeking investors, the SEC would bring you up on fraud charges, which is why your speech needs to be limited.
I think that you have made your position very clear.
My position has been clear, very clear. It is your position that has been hypocritical, self-contradictory, unsubstantiated, incoherent, and now is little more than shrill hyperbole.Charles
March 5, 2018
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“Well, Would you not be willing to have some rules placed on your speech about an AR15...” So, your right to have no rules placed on your ownership of an AR15 is more important than a school kid’s chance of attaining an age where he can buy an AR15. I think that you have made your position very clear.Molson Bleu
March 5, 2018
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Molson Bleu @ 181
I don’t think that anyone thinks that the root cause is as simple as gun control.
You do:
Molson Bleu @ 133: Yes, you can harden soft targets like schools, and I am not saying that we shouldn’t do this, but that is just a bandaid. It does absolutely nothing to solve the root cause. The crazies will no longer shoot up the schools. Instead, they will shoot up the theatres, hospital waiting rooms, subways, theatres, church picnics, church services, New Years celebrations, college graduation ceremonies, pro life rallies, fall fairs, scout jamborees, and the like. Alteratively, we could make it more difficult for the crazies to get their guns in the first place. This won’t eliminate mass shootings, unfortunately the cat is out of the bag on that, but it will reduce them
You ask:
Would you not be willing to have some rules placed on your ownership of an AR15 (eg, storage, transport and transfer requirements similar to Israel and Switzerland) in order to make mass shootings more difficult to do?
Well, Would you not be willing to have some rules placed on your speech about an AR15 (eg, false statistics, mischaracterizing firearm features, mischaracterizing root-causes of school shootings, ignoring risks to law-abiding gun owners, ignoring criminal behavior, ignoring policy that thwarts criminalizing violent students, similar to yelling "fire" to stampede a crowd) in order to make anti 2nd amendment propaganda more difficult to do? Since you're so eager to impose "sensible limits" on my 2nd amendment rights, the time has come to impose sensible speech control limits on your 1st amendment rights. Just as you are, sensibly, not permitted to stampede people by yelling "fire", no longer shall you be permitted to stampede policy makers by yelling "blame guns". Your speech is hereby prohibited from using the words "rifle", "pistol", "firearm", "magazine", "ammunition", and "shooting" Your speech that mentions gun control shall be limited to a capacity of 10 words. You must acquire a permit to discuss, post, tweet or retweet, or otherwise mention gun control. Your speech which does mention gun control must first be approved by an authorized agency such as the NRA. Violation of any of these sensible speech control laws will result in 6 months imprisonment for the 1st and 2nd offense, and 10 years imprisonment thereafter. Anyone prepared to restrict my 2nd amendment rights should be equally prepared to have their 1st amendment rights restricted.Charles
March 5, 2018
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Charles@179&180, I don’t think that anyone thinks that the root cause is as simple as gun control. But the attitude that any type of gun control can’t even be on the table with respect to remedial correction and ultimate corrective action is just narrow minded and selfish. Any effective solution will require a multi-prong approach. Limited but enforced gun control, hardening of schools, increased resources in schools for guidance and social support, and the like. Would you not be willing to have some rules placed on your ownership of an AR15 (eg, storage, transport and transfer requirements similar to Israel and Switzerland) in order to make mass shootings more difficult to do?Molson Bleu
March 5, 2018
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Molson Bleu @ 155
If you know anything about root cause analysis, which you obviously don’t...
Here are a group of psychologists and the Secret Service who analyzed the actual root causes of school shootings. A group of psychologists studied prevention of school shootings: A Qualitative Investigation of Averted School Shooting Rampages
The most salient prevention effort mentioned by multiple participants was that of establishing and implementing what they believe to be successful antibullying programs. Such programs appear to have instilled a climate within these schools that bullying is not acceptable and not tolerated. Consistent with best practices on prevention (Hage et al., 2007), participants mentioned antibullying programs that the literature has supported, such as the Olweus Bullying Prevention Program (e.g., Olweus, Limber, & Mihalic, 1999). It is important to note this explicit effort to minimize bullying when considering that some studies have shown that retaliation for being bullied is one of the most common reported motives for planning and executing a school rampage (e.g., Daniels, Buck, et al., 2007; O’Toole, 2000; Vossekuil et al., 2002). As Molina, Dulmus, and Sowers (2005) emphasize, the sooner such prevention/intervention programs are implemented, the greater the likelihood that future school violence can be prevented. [p. 88]
And the Secret Service earlier had studied how to "profile" school shooters: The Final Report and Findings of the Safe School Initiative: Implications for the Prevention of School Attacks in the United States
Overview of Safe School Initiative Findings The findings of the Safe School Initiative suggest that there are productive actions that educators, law enforcement officials and others can pursue in response to the problem of targeted school violence. Specifically, Initiative findings suggest that these officials may wish to consider focusing their efforts to formulate strategies for preventing these attacks in two principal areas: • developing the capacity to pick up on and evaluate available or knowable information that might indicate that there is a risk of a targeted school attack; and, • employing the results of these risk evaluations or "threat assessments" in developing strategies to prevent potential school attacks from occurring. Support for these suggestions is found in 10 key findings of the Safe School Initiative study. These findings are as follows: • Incidents of targeted violence at school rarely were sudden, impulsive acts. • Prior to most incidents, other people knew about the attacker’s idea and/or plan to attack. • Most attackers did not threaten their targets directly prior to advancing the attack. • There is no accurate or useful "profile" of students who engaged in targeted school violence. • Most attackers engaged in some behavior prior to the incident that caused others concern or indicated a need for help. • Most attackers had difficulty coping with significant losses or personal failures. Moreover, many had considered or attempted suicide. • Many attackers felt bullied, persecuted or injured by others prior to the attack. • Most attackers had access to and had used weapons prior to the attack. • In many cases, other students were involved in some capacity. • Despite prompt law enforcement responses, most shooting incidents were stopped by means other than law enforcement intervention. [pp. 11-12] Most attackers used some type of gun as their primary weapon, with over half of the attackers using handguns (61 percent, n=25), and nearly half of them using rifles or shotguns (49 percent, n=20). Three-quarters of the attackers used only one weapon (76 percent, n=31) to harm their victims, although almost half of the attackers had more than one weapon with them at time of the attack (46 percent, n=19). [p. 16] The large proportion of attackers who acquired their guns from home points to the need for schools and law enforcement officials to collaborate on policies and procedures for responding when a student is thought to have a firearm in school. In particular, schools should be aware of the provisions of the Federal Gun-Free Schools Act, which requires that all schools expel students who bring a gun to school and should report all violations to local law enforcement officials. [p. 36]
The key takeaways above are: school shootings are often the result of bullying, they are often signalled well in advance, they seldom involve "assault rifles", and failure of school administration and police to treat students bringing firearms to school as a crime only enables some future attack. If and when the above untried preventative methods fail, then a hardened school (only partially implemented at Parkland) would stop a school shooter. No gun bans as proposed would have changed what Cruz was enabled to do, but preventing Cruz from being bullied, and failing that, processing his numerous incidents of violent behavior as crimes (as Broward county school administration and law enforcement deliberately avoided) would have shown up in background checks and prevented his firearm purchases. A safe school is a school in which students are not bullied, students who are violent are expelled and put "in the system", and teachers are allowed to teach instead of be disciplinarians.Charles
March 5, 2018
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Dodge County, Wisconsin, Sheriff Dale Schmidt pens an open letter about root causes of school shootings: https://www.theblaze.com/news/2018/03/04/wisconsin-sheriff-pens-viral-letter-addressing-the-root-cause-behind-parkland-shooting
[snip] Read the full letter below: Following every mass killing, I ask myself, what has happened to our society? I also wonder what the solution is to ensure our families do not become future victims. Many have pointed out that years ago, people would go to school and have hunting rifles in their vehicles. Yet, mass violence in schools and other locations did not happen as in society today. It makes me think that there must be a root cause that we are not addressing that has led to this change. So what has changed and more importantly how do we fix it? Media reports of school walk-outs and gun control discussions are becoming more prevalent than ever, all in an effort to find a quick and easy solution. I think it is safe to say that there is no quick and easy solution. I think perhaps we are not evaluating the true root cause which is obviously very complex. We must make efforts to change our society as a whole. It’s my belief that the root cause starts with our youth lacking basic skills including respect for authority figures like parents and teachers, the ability to cope with conflict and the ability to handle rejection. Further issues like mental health and alcohol/drug use also play a role, but column length restrictions limit my ability to cover all aspects of the root cause today. I believe it is imperative that we raise our children in a manner that instills respect for authority. While we all love our children, we need to get back to a society of parents who expect a level of respect toward both them and others in authority, including teachers. Discipline needs to be reintegrated into our society. Parents, don’t ever let anyone tell you that you can’t or shouldn’t reasonably discipline your child in a non-abusive manner. Teachers need to have the support of parents when they make disciplinary decisions and parents need to resist the urge of running to the defense of their children when a teacher feels the need to discipline. It undermines their authority and will likely be treated as an example for actions toward others in authority in the future. What about inability to cope or handle rejection? For years we have watched as competition has been replaced by participation awards that are given to make children feel good. While no one wants their child to ever be disappointed or upset, when they are young, they need to face conflict and disappointment and learn to resolve it appropriately under the guidance of adults. It is part of developing their personality and dealing with conflict in the future. When youth are not taught how to handle difficult situations, they must find their own way to cope, which without guidance may be result in unhealthy or even dangerous future behavior. I am no expert and am merely giving an opinion of what I have seen in my own experience, but I feel that my opinions have merit as I have witnessed people dealing with difficult situations at the worst times of their lives. My point in writing this is not to place blame but rather to start conversations on what truly is the root cause of violence in society. Many have strong opinions about gun control but realistically gun control will do nothing more than place a very small band aid on a much bigger problem. It is imperative that we have serious discussions on what we can do to change the norms of our society and positively impact the decisions our youth make. It’s time to refocus our energy to affect long lasting change so that we can keep Dodge County a safe and enjoyable place to live, work and visit. Sheriff Dale J. Schmidt
I would only quibble with:
Parents, don’t ever let anyone tell you that you can’t or shouldn’t reasonably discipline your child in a non-abusive manner. Teachers need to have the support of parents when they make disciplinary decisions and parents need to resist the urge of running to the defense of their children when a teacher feels the need to discipline.
So is spanking ok again? Teachers won't get any support as long as they attempt to indoctrinate kids in alternate lifestyles and promote Islam over Christianity. Otherwise, the sheriff is exactly right. I guess I'll add that teachers need some help to get the school administration off their backs and free them up to teach more and test less, and get rid of common core and its look-alikes.Charles
March 4, 2018
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The chilling school shooting threats made across the country since the Parkland massacre: Dozens of kids have been arrested - including a 10-year-old - all vowing to kill teachers and classmates http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5460311/The-chilling-school-shooting-threats-Parkland.html
Since February 14, there have been at least 38 different threats across the US Most were made by students posting on social media who were underage In one case, a student took a gun to school but killed himself instead of others He had planned to commit mass murder but changed his mind last minute Not all are serious - some kids said they were trying to be funny or stall classes The frightening trend is being met with harsh, swift action from police Now, dozens of teens across the country are facing felony charges and jail time
[snip]
The large number of threats is worrying but not necessarily an increase on years gone by. Experts say it is purely that they are now being made public because police are not taking any chances and are arresting children who would ordinarily be disciplined more privately by their teachers and parents. 'Kids make bad decisions and I think that in decades past those decisions would have been addressed behind closed doors with the principal and parents. 'Now they're being addressed behind closed doors in the police station and the courtroom,' said Ken Trump, president of National School Safety and Security Services, a Cleveland-based consulting company.
Mostly handguns shown or mentioned. 1 kid pictured with semi-auto carbine. One kid said he was going to use a nerf gun. Not one more brused eye!!! Time to ban nerf guns, for the kids!Charles
March 4, 2018
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F/N: Former US Secretary of State and US National Security advisor Rice on The View:
Former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice offered an amazing story from her childhood to explain to the more liberal hosts of “The View” why she supports Second Amendment rights. Here’s what she said “Let me tell you why I’m a defender of the Second Amendment,” she began. “I was a little girl growing up in Birmingham, Alabama, in the late fifties, early sixties,” she explained. “There was no way that Bull Connor and the Birmingham Police were going to protect you.” “And so when White Knight Riders would come through our neighborhood,” she said, “my father and his friends would take their guns and they’d go to the head of the neighborhood, it’s a little cul-de-sac and they would fire in the air, if anybody came through.” “I don’t think they actually ever hit anybody,” she continued. “But they protected the neighborhood. And I’m sure if Bull Connor had known where those guns were he would have rounded them up.” “And so, I don’t favor some things like gun registration,” she said to a suddenly silent crowd. “That said, it’s time to have a national conversation about how we can deal with the problems we have. It’s not going to be any single fix to the terrible events at Parkland,” she concluded.
KFkairosfocus
March 4, 2018
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U/D: Yahoo News-Reuters:
FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. (Reuters) - The Florida Senate rejected a proposal to ban assault weapons, and voted for a measure to arm some teachers, weeks after 17 people were killed in the deadliest high school shooting in U.S. history. An amendment that would have banned assault weapons attached to a wider bill failed on Saturday in a largely party-line vote, in response to the Feb. 14 killing of 14 students and three faculty at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in the Fort Lauderdale suburb of Parkland. The vote was 20-17 against the assault weapon ban, with two Republicans joining all of the senate's 15 Democrats in support of the proposal, the Miami Herald reported. The full bill, the Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Public Safety Act, is expected to pass the state Senate on Monday, then go to the Florida House. After the Senate rejected the ban, Stoneman Douglas student Jaclyn Corin tweeted, "This breaks my heart, but we will NOT let this ruin our movement. This is for the kids." Fellow classmate David Hogg, who has become one of the school's leading activists on gun safety, tweeted, "Elections are going to be fun!"
Notice, who are the cited spokespeople chosen to counter the vote, and their talking points. Then compare what has come out above, including the development as to why a background check on NC would very likely fail to detect dangers. KFkairosfocus
March 4, 2018
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JAD, thanks, significant and telling about the agit-prop job that is now in progress. looks like, meant to feed lawfare and censorship to shut down viral expose. It SHOULD be utterly implausible that school kids in shock and in effect meeting over a cafeteria table could be pushing a major policy agenda; for sure they simply do not really know what they seem so confident over; strongly suggesting something I know all too well from 40 years ago. For, now, it is increasingly clear they are being USED as near-martyr status face cards who are likely swept up way over their heads and are used to push a long simmering agenda; in a context where there is a clear pattern of government and policing failure not to mention outright manipulation by major media.Right now, I think I have good enough reason to believe that young man complaining of scripting and to take CNN's harsh denunciations as proof they wish to crush and brush aside those who will not toe the agit prop partyline and are so foolish as to blurt out inconvenient truth. Spiral of silencing tactics. We should take this as the exposed tip of an iceberg glimpsed through the fog that tells us the utterly cynical and even outright will-to-power is all, nihilistic nature of media, educational, policing and government establishments. But, who is listening, and increasingly, who is left to sound a clear, credible alarm? Something is deeply wrong. KFkairosfocus
March 4, 2018
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KF @ 172, You need to do some of your own homework here. Sperry, in the article I cited @ 170, gives us the link to the BROWARD COUNTY COLLABORATIVE AGREEMENT ON SCHOOL DISCIPLINE. That is the official legal document which modifies the policy that opened up the cracks in the system. Here is the link: https://www.browardprevention.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Fully-Executed-Collaborative-Agreement.pdf Let me quote the documents two opening paragraphs:
WHEREAS, the parties acknowledge that law enforcement plays an essential role in maintaining safety in the community. However, the use of arrests and referrals to the criminal justice system may decrease a student's chance of graduation, entering higher education, joining the military, and getting a job. [emphasis added]
But what about the 14 students who were killed because this new policy allowed Nikolas Cruz to slip through the cracks-- those are cracks the policy itself created.
WHEREAS, in the 2011-2012 school year, the Department of Juvenile Justice reported 1,062 school-related arrests in Broward County, the highest number in the state. 71% of these arrests were for misdemeanor offenses. Over half of those students had never been referred to the Juvenile Justice System before.
So if you can “magically” just zero out 60-70% of the arrests by not having them “reported” (even by police themselves!) you can then boast you have dramatically improved your school districts embarrassing discipline problems even though nothing has really changed. Again, how did Nikolas Cruz slip through the cracks? There is no doubt that this policy is a major reason. Notice the signatures, especially on pages, 16 (school superintendent), 17 (circuit court judge), 18 (state attorney) and 20 (county sheriff).john_a_designer
March 4, 2018
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kairosfocus @ 171
I should note that corporate strategies, ideological agendas, agit prop operations, secret subversion, hidden agendas, secret groups and societies, media manipulation and much more have always existed.
And media coverup of professional astro-turfing.... Why Did It Take Two Weeks To Discover Parkland Students’ Astroturfing?
[snip] On February 28, BuzzFeed came out with the actual story: Rep. Debbie Wassermann Schultz aiding in the lobbying in Tallahassee, a teacher’s union organizing the buses that got the kids there, Michael Bloomberg’s groups and the Women’s March working on the upcoming March For Our Lives, MoveOn.org doing social media promotion and (potentially) march logistics, and training for student activists provided by federally funded Planned Parenthood. The president of the American Federation of Teachers told BuzzFeed they’re also behind the national school walkout, which journalists had previously assured the public was the sole work of a teenager. (I’d thought teachers were supposed to get kids into school, but maybe that’s just me.) In other words, the response was professionalized. That’s not surprising, because this is what organization that gets results actually looks like. It’s not a bunch of magical kids in somebody’s living room. Nor is it surprising that the professionalization happened right off the bat. Broward County’s teacher’s union is militant, and Rep. Ted Lieu stated on Twitter that his family knows Parkland student activist David Hogg’s family, so there were plenty of opportunities for grown-ups with resources and skills to connect the kids. [snip]
Charles
March 4, 2018
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JAD, sobering issues. Is there corroboration or confirmation? KFkairosfocus
March 4, 2018
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F/N: Corsi's opposition view at USA Today is worth reading: https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/02/27/arm-qualified-willing-teachers-and-staff-editorials-and-debates/378812002/ I find it significant that a search came up with denunciations and dismissals highlighted, targetting him as a conspiracy theorist. This is a PhD in American studies who, like it or not has published several best selling books of significant impact, who has had something to say. For sure, on fair comment, a lot more than High School students who seem ignorant on several major issues and implications of what they have advocated but wear the near-martyr halo. I suggest we would be better advised to address the issues. KF PS: I should note that corporate strategies, ideological agendas, agit prop operations, secret subversion, hidden agendas, secret groups and societies, media manipulation and much more have always existed. There is a saying: if it succeed none dare call it treason, and that saying exists for a reason. The issue is not if such are possible or even fairly common but whether there is good warrant regarding particular cases. Where, we must ever remember Machiavelli's hard-bitten counsel that political disorders are like hectic fever, at first easy to cure but hard to diagnose, but if at length the course of the disease is obvious to all it is then too late to cure. The point here is that we need credible experts who can read patterns early and can provide good warrant for prudent action in good time. Are we reading the signs of our times?kairosfocus
March 4, 2018
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Here are some excerpts from another article which is worth reading:
Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel backed Runcie’s plan to diminish the authority of police in responding to campus crime. A November 2013 video shows him signing the district’s 16-page "collaborative agreement on school discipline,” which lists more than a dozen misdemeanors that can no longer be reported to police, along with five steps police must “exhaust” before even considering placing a student under arrest. In just a few years, ethnically diverse Broward went from leading the state of Florida in student arrests to boasting one of its lowest school-related incarceration rates. Out-of-school suspensions and expulsions also plummeted…
So Broward County school district went from one of worst to first-- well, almost. Never mind if you had been an accountant and had “cooked the books” like this, by just zeroing out a lot of debt, you would have ended up in jail. Nevertheless, this looked good on somebody’s resume.’ And besides their intentions were so good. They really believed they were doing the right thing.
In January 2014… [the U.S.] department [of education] issued new discipline guidelines strongly recommending that the nation's schools use law enforcement measures and out-of-school suspensions as a last resort. Announced jointly by Duncan and then-Attorney General Eric Holder, the new procedures came as more than friendly guidance from Uncle Sam – they also came with threats of federal investigations and defunding for districts that refused to fully comply… [The Broward County school] district’s legally written discipline policy also lists “assault without the use of a weapon” and “battery without serious bodily injury,” as well as “disorderly conduct,” as misdemeanors that "should not be reported to Law Enforcement Agencies or Broward District Schools Police.” This document also recommends “counseling” and “restorative justice."
https://www.realclearinvestigations.com/articles/2018/02/28/obama_administration_school_discipline_policy_and_the_parkland_shooting.html This is how government from the federal level right down to the state and local government planned to keep our children safe. How has that plan been working out? (Did they even think about school safety here?) So what has the response been from control advocates? Vilify and demonize the NRA, “they’re ultimately responsible.” Ban guns with the wrong cosmetics like the AR-15. Heck nobody needs a gun, the police are there to protect us… Yeah, right.john_a_designer
March 3, 2018
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F/N: I should add, there is an obvious purge of "the right" on major social media outlets, sounding a lot like spiral of silencing backed up by stereotyping, stigmatising and scapegoating. Some folks are pushing hard for big stakes, and things may get really nasty going forward. ID supporters need to monitor carefully as the very same tactics are liable to be used against us by pretty much the same kinds of folks. Remember just over a decade ago the families and children of Kansas USA were held hostage over the accreditation of the education of their children; mostly for the thought crime of teaching a more or less traditional understanding of science. Something nasty this way comes. KFkairosfocus
March 3, 2018
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Charles, I suggest that a volunteer citizen marshal corps comprising people already there and armed with suitable weapons such as Tavor in 6.5 mm Grendel, 9 mm autopistols, MP5's or the X 95 Tavor etc, would be extremely affordable. A modest stock of 6.5 mm Creedmore guns [1,000+ m] to handle snipers of the ilk that murdered Mrs Weaver is also quite affordable. I am sure IWI and/or licensees would be delighted to give special prices for the million or so weapons in the special calibre. (6.5 mm Grendel is an 800 m round.) Any claims that a proper target-hardening could not be afforded are patently false. Instead they reveal the same hostility and prejudice shown in the unwarranted accusation that teachers of caucasian race would take excuse of holding concealed carry permits to murder significant numbers of black and latino students, as I pointed out above. In fact CCW permit holders have a very good track record to the contrary. KFkairosfocus
March 3, 2018
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john_a_designer @ 166
Cruz law enforcement was able to escape focusing attention of law enforcement on Cruz
There. All fixed up.Charles
March 3, 2018
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The following is from a recent NRO article. It’s very worth reading.
Yesterday Paul Sperry of RealClearInvestigations published a comprehensive report that reached an explosive conclusion: “Despite committing a string of arrestable offenses on campus before the Florida school shooting, Nikolas Cruz was able to escape the attention of law enforcement, pass a background check and purchase the weapon he used to slaughter three staff members and 14 fellow students because of Obama administration efforts to make school discipline more lenient.” Overstatement? Perhaps, but it contains an important element of truth. In 2013, the Broward County school board entered into an agreement with multiple law-enforcement agencies — including the Broward County sheriff — designed to limit the number of on-campus arrests.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/03/parkland-shooting-school-discipline-policies-limited-law-enforcement-involvement-with-students/ So what is the main argument from idiotic gun control nuts advocates? That we should rely completely on the government for our protection and safety? Well, that’s what the Broward County school board decided. However, arresting Nikolas Cruz so he had a criminal record would have prevented him from legally purchasing an AR-15. It also may have gotten him the psychiatric care that he needed.john_a_designer
March 3, 2018
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Molson Bleu @ 158
The solution to mass shootings will not be by hardening targets alone, because there are not enough security forces and money to harden all possible targets.
Further to this point regarding hardening of schools, it would seem voters and taxpayers are willing to spend the money to harden their schools, but government (i.e. Broward County Superintendent Runcie) has mismanaged the expenditures & deliverables. Golly. Who knew? Educational Advisory Board Member: ‘Killings Could, and Should Have Been Prevented’ February 22, 2018 By Wayne Alder
[snip] Over the past three years I, and the advisory board, continuously sought information from the Broward County School Board on this issue, and pushed for single point of entry implementation in our schools. In 2014 Broward County voters approved an $800 million bond for school improvements. Chief among the promises made by the Broward County School Board in pushing for the bond’s approval were improvements to Broward’s single point of entry protection. However, as of last year, 100 of the 238 schools in Broward County still needed field visits to determine what was needed to accomplish single point of entry, let alone complete the necessary modifications to make it a reality. Although some improvements had been made to Marjory Stoneman Douglas High school, large sections of perimeter fencing remained missing, and other necessary improvements remained unfinished for effective single point of entry. Although a final determination remains to be made, it is undeniable that the murderer gained access to the interior buildings of Marjory Stoneman Douglas unimpeded. This is a failure of perimeter control and a failure of the Broward County School Board to implement single point of entry. [snip]
And it seems Runcie has dug himself and Broward County schools into a financial hole.... Six Clues Prove Broward School’s $800 Million Bond Program Is In Trouble
Broward School’s $800 million bond program is in trouble with costs skyrocketing by as much as 40 percent. Many of the projects promised by School Superintendent Robert Runcie and the School Board cannot be done for the original estimated costs. [snip]
Charles
March 3, 2018
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F/N: Just when Gun Control advocates were pushing how reasonable they are, this comes in MN, USA -- and recall what is being drowned out in the current media-whipped up agit prop and now lawfare frenzy (as summarised):
For everyone in MN. Here it comes HF 3022 is now in the Legislature – Permit required to own a gun – Permit required to buy a gun – Permit required to sell a gun – Local law enforcement gets to deny all types of gun permits – Local law enforcement gets to deny permits to carry [--> arbitrary power in hands of police] – Personal medical information must be shared with law enforcement [--> opens up info theft, blackmail and more] – All firearm transfers must be reported – All guns must be registered (fees set by local law enforcement) – Registration must be renewed annually – Local law enforcement may conduct warrantless “safety inspections” of gun owner’s homes [ --> warrantless search and seizure fishing expeditions and politicised police harassment] – Local law enforcement sets “safe storage” policies – Five day waiting period for all transfers – Transfers must be done through an FFL (even between private parties) – Fees may be charged for transfers – Local law enforcement may conduct background investigation on transfers – Total ban on any gun which meets broad “assault weapon” definition – banned guns must be destroyed or surrendered [ --> Currently most firearms in the US are semiauto, add one more feature and banned.] – Ban thumbhole stocks – Ban adjustable stocks – Ban pistol grip stocks [--> likely implicitly bans handguns, the classic weapon of self defense] – Limit fixed magazine capacity to 7 rounds – Ban any magazine capable of holding more than 7 rounds [ --> Most pistols hold more than this, esp. 9 mm pistols] – Suspension of gun rights based on complaints from anonymous parties [--> This is worse than the Inquisition.] – Recriminalization of suppressors – Bump stock ban – All ammunition sales will be registered – Permit required to purchase ammunition Almost forgot an important thing — HF 3022 would also make gun owner private data public. This would include: Number and type of guns you own Your address [--> this in an era of identity theft, information fraud and targetting by agit prop operators]
This is similar to the moves made by the British that triggered the American Revolution. What are these legislators thinking? Even if one is no gun owner and has doubts about firearms in civilian hands, the implications of such proposals point to ever encroaching state power. Don't ever underestimate power of precedent, and that of a ruthless agenda backed by cultural marxist agit prop and lawfare tactics. And, these things cannot be wound up and set running overnight, they have been in the pipeline for years, were probably in prep for the big push that the election of Mr Trump so obviously checked for a moment. The same obtains for the surge shown by Antifa and the sort of big media push that we are seeing. Some dots need to be connected and the iceberg inferred from the tip showing on the surface. And no, this is not conspiracy theorising, it is reading patterns on known dynamics of agit prop and linked ruthless pushes all the way to full bore 4th generation warfare. Never forget, with Tet, a sharp and devastating defeat was media amplified into a dominant narrative of hopeless quagmire that culminated in the enslavement and slaughter of millions. Something that has never been properly accounted for or reformed from. KFkairosfocus
March 3, 2018
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kairosfocus @ 162
Further to this, secrecy obtains.
Indeed. The Israelis don't publish their security methods, not suprisingly. What is known, is largely known annecdotally from specific instances. Hence a wide range of descriptions of what Israelis do or not to harden their schools.
Your cars/phones vs guns argument is also quite illuminating
Yes. Thoughtless, incoherent, hypocrisy that always blames "guns" but never blames behavior, and always demands further rights infringment but never demands law enforcement, always wringing hands over 1 more mass shooting death but never over thousands more texting-while-driving deaths, or thousands more gang-shooting deaths. The Leftist hypocrisy is truly stunning.Charles
March 3, 2018
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Charles, interesting numbers. I suggest that statistics on Israeli teachers will need to be modified by risk estimation [as in, settler areas] and further modified by the broad-based conscription which implies that essentially every teacher is also a soldier. Further to this, secrecy obtains. KF PS: Your cars/phones vs guns argument is also quite illuminating.kairosfocus
March 3, 2018
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Molson Bleu @ 158
OK, I admit that I may have exaggerated. There were 270 in 2014, 333 in 2015, 383 in 2016 and 346 in 2017 and 36 so far in 2018. Hopefully, this lower number for 2018 persists for the entire year.
Regardless of your exaggeration, Gun Violence Archive has wildly inflated numbers. They did not define "mass shooting", but looking at some of the incidents, it seems to be a catchall that includes "drive bys" and inter-gang violence. Their numbers wildly surpass Klarevas' "incidents" per decade of 19 (1984-1994), 12 (1994-2004) and 34 (2004-2014) as quoted by the Wash. Post and cited in your link @ 140. Further, here is a Congressional Research Service analysis of FBI data: Mass Murder with Firearms Incidents and Victims 1999-2013 - CRS 2015.pdf [p. 2]
Summary With data provided by criminologist Grant Duwe, CRS also compiled a 44-year (1970-2013) dataset of firearms-related mass murders that could arguably be characterized as “mass public shootings.” These data show that there were on average: • one (1.1) incident per year during the 1970s (5.5 victims murdered, 2.0 wounded per incident), • nearly three (2.7) incidents per year during the 1980s (6.1 victims murdered, 5.3 wounded per incident), • four (4.0) incidents per year during the 1990s (5.6 victims murdered, 5.5 wounded per incident), • four (4.1) incidents per year during the 2000s (6.4 victims murdered, 4.0 wounded per incident), and • four (4.5) incidents per year from 2010 through 2013 (7.4 victims murdered, 6.3 wounded per incident).
And for those who question the FBI's data, here is a dataset compiled by Mother Jones Investigations US Mass Shootings, 1982-2018 You can browse the spreadsheet and you'll see that for every year, the number of mass shootings is in single digits (i.e. less than 10) for any given year. So, CRS/FBI stats and Mother Jones Investigations have "mass shootings" between 4-9 per year, and Klarevas (whom you relied upon earlier) has even less at 2-4 per year. Whereas Gun Violence Archive has 250-350 per year [face-palm].
Here is the Israeli example: [snip] No armed teachers and one armed guard. Just like the Florida school.
Yes. Israel does not, as a rule, arm its teachers. However, every Israeli school has different threats. Every school undergoes a threat assessment and a security plan is customized for that school's circumstances. Minimally, every school has at least one armed security guard and more depending on school size, as well as controlled entry and exit points (everyone enters through a manned, secure entrance with metal detectors), and physical security fences including bollards to prevent vehicle attacks. Also, armed guards escort all school trips everywhere in the country. A key aspect of Israeli school security is they profile and question potential threats (unlike our politically correct law enforcement which actually coddles and shields identified threats). But unlike the Florida school, the Israeli armed guards don't cower outside waiting for backup that still doesn't go in when it arrives.
And the story about high gun ownership in Israel is simply a myth.
The issue is how Israeli's harden their schools, how many armed guards Israeli schools have, not how many of the general population are armed. The rate of armed guards in Israeli schools is approximately 100% versus approximately 24% fulltime for all US public schools (http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2015/2015051.pdf [Table 5, p. 10 ])
How is limiting access to the types of weapons that can be purchased a violation of your 2nd amendment rights?
"... the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Which part of "shall not be infringed" do you not understand.
The solution to mass shootings will not be by hardening targets alone, because there are not enough security forces and money to harden all possible targets.
We are talking about hardening schools. We harden banks, courthouses, federal office buildings, jewelry stores, customs warehouses, financial couriers, etc., but not schools. Schools put up a sign that says "Gun Free Zone" with a yellow happy face. Universities already have campus police, they just need to be armed. High schools and gradeshools, even nurserys, need to hire at least one additional staff as armed guard, just like banks, etc.
But without some movement on sensible and enforceable gun control laws, we will continue to have mass shootings at unprecedented levels.
While your "unprecedented levels" cited by Gun Violence Archive are preposterous, they are still below the number of teens deaths due to texting and driving, which you don't seem to get too excited about. When the sensible laws already on the books are enforced and not circumvented by the government and schools, and when the government actually does something when people say something, and when sensible school hardening steps have been taken, we can reassess what is or isn't working. Right now, the only thing that is working is an armed citizenry that shoots back. We just don't let it work everywhere, and the mass shooters know that and exploit it. I'll also note for the record that you totally evaded your argument to "harden" cars to prevent texting and driving deaths but were unwilling to limit teen cell phone ownership. Teens don't need cell phones for defense nor do they (or anyone) have a right to them. Lawful 2nd amendment gun ownership, OTOH, is vital for self defense and a right.Charles
March 2, 2018
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MB, it seems a confiscation bill was just introduced in the US Congress with looks like 150 co-sponsors. It turns on the implications of the "assault weapons" definition I highlighted. FYI, there are already background checks, just to pick one case; they did not work with NC because there is a push to keep offences and problems of school kids out of law enforcement records. Further, with all due respect 18 year olds are liable for the draft still, are allowed to vote, and are regarded as adults. I also point out the string of policing and government failures in this case which undermines the claim that the government and its agents will provide adequate care, preventative measures and protections. That these issues seem to be significantly drowned out speaks, and not well. KFkairosfocus
March 2, 2018
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"I have also pointed out that any major confiscation effort would trigger a civil war in the US as millions would take it that this is an index of a new long train of abuses and usurpations. " I am not talking about the confiscation of any guns, except in cases where they were already obtained illegally. I would rather see an increase in gun restrictions (e.g., assault style weapons) whereby anyone who currently owns one legally would be grandfathered. However, I would not allow the current owner to transfer it to anyone else or bequeath it in an inheritance. However, I would like to see an immediate effort placed on more stringent and enforced requirements for the purchase of all guns. Things like meaningful background checks, increased age limit, mandatory training, reference check, and the like. Nothing that any law abiding citizen would have a problem getting through. In addition to this, legally enforcable rules about the proper storage, transport and use of guns. And finally, any transfer of ownership must follow the same restrictions.Molson Bleu
March 2, 2018
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"Firstly, prove that is a fact. Cite your sources that prove the U.S. has more than 365 mass shootings per year." OK, I admit that I may have exaggerated. There were 270 in 2014, 333 in 2015, 383 in 2016 and 346 in 2017 and 36 so far in 2018. Hopefully, this lower number for 2018 persists for the entire year. http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/past-tolls "When presented with a proven (by Israelis) solution to mass shootings in U.S. schools (less than a couple dozen deaths every few years) by hardening schools, you argue it won’t solve the root cause of “crazies getting guns in the first place”." Here is the Israeli example:
At one high school in Israel, we saw a typical scene -- an armed guard outside the main entrance. Since 1974 there have only been half a dozen terror attacks on Israeli schools. Principal Nati Stern says there are about 145 teachers at the school, and none are armed with guns.
No armed teachers and one armed guard. Just like the Florida school. And the story about high gun ownership in Israel is simply a myth.
In Israel it can take up to three months to get a gun. For starters, you have to be over 27, unless you've served in the military. Then you must prove that your job requires a gun, and get a doctor to sign off. Doctors like Omri Ben Ezra also check for mental illness. The final step is at the gun range. But about 40 percent of school security guards fail and need to reapply. That's fine with principals like Stern.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-schools-in-israel-keep-students-safe-and-prevent-mass-shootings/ "You aren’t about “root causes” or “solutions” of teen deaths. You’re just about depriving law-abiding gun owners of their 2nd Amendment constitutional rights, and you’ll use any excuse you think might fly, and you don’t even recognize your own excuses." How is limiting access to the types of weapons that can be purchased a violation of your 2nd amendment rights? You can still buy guns. How is requiring a physical and psychological exam before you can purchase a gun a violation of your 2nd amendment rights? How is a thorough background check and a waiting period a violation of your 2nd amendment rights? How is mandatory training and demonstrated proficiency a violation of your 2nd amendment rights? How are rules about safe storage, transport and use of weapons a violation of your 2nd amendment rights? The solution to mass shootings will not be by hardening targets alone, because there are not enough security forces and money to harden all possible targets. I agree that we should provide some hardening for the most vulnerable and valuable groups among us, schools being one of these. But without some movement on sensible and enforceable gun control laws, we will continue to have mass shootings at unprecedented levels.Molson Bleu
March 2, 2018
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Molson Bleu @ 155
But you are just trying to demonstrate that banning certain types of guns, or placing more restrictions on gun ownership, will not eliminate mass shootings. But nobody has suggested that it will.
No, I was merely using your own words to highlight your two-fold hypocrisy: 1) that you are not interested in saving teen lives (who die a hundred-fold more annually from texting while driving than from being shot in school), but rather merely driven to deprive law-abiding citizens of their rights. 2) that hardening schools, as the Israelis did, in fact eliminates the root cause of mass school shootings i.e. "crazies" entering schools with guns. @ 133 you argued against hardening schools in favor of making it more difficult for "crazies" to get guns. @ 155 you argued in favor of hardening cars and against making it difficult for teens to get cell phones. Here were your own exact words @ 133:
Yes, you can harden soft targets like schools, and I am not saying that we shouldn’t do this, but that is just a bandaid. It does absolutely nothing to solve the root cause. The crazies will no longer shoot up the schools. Instead, they will shoot up the theatres, hospital waiting rooms, subways, theatres, church picnics, church services, New Years celebrations, college graduation ceremonies, pro life rallies, fall fairs, scout jamborees, and the like. Alteratively, we could make it more difficult for the crazies to get their guns in the first place. This won’t eliminate mass shootings, unfortunately the cat is out of the bag on that, but it will reduce them.
And here @ 155 is your argument to "harden cars" instead of deprive teens of their cell phones:
If you know anything about root cause analysis, which you obviously don’t, the corrective action should eliminate the root cause (aka, texting while driving). Banning teens from owning cell phones won’t eliminate texting while driving because this practice isn’t limited to teens. Building cars with signal blockers will do this.
And here is your same argument with its hypocrisy illuminated by substituting "shooting up schools" for "texting while driving":
If you know anything about root cause analysis, which you obviously don’t, the corrective action should eliminate the root cause (aka, crazies shooting up schools). Banning crazies from owning assault rifles won’t eliminate shooting up schools because this practice isn’t limited to crazies. Hardening soft targets like schools will do this.
You continue with:
However, countries that have invoked stringent and enforced gun access laws do not have more mass shootings than there are days in the year. Trying to divert the subject to texting while driving does not change this fact.
Firstly, prove that is a fact. Cite your sources that prove the U.S. has more than 365 mass shootings per year. Secondly, I didn't divert the subject, rather you didn't seem to recognize your own arguments, that you prefer depriving law-abiding citizens of their 2nd amendment rights instead of hardening schools, but prefer to harden cars instead of deprive teen drivers of cell phones. But it does illuminate quite well that you are not about saving teen lives, you're really just about depriving others of rights you disagree with:
Molson Bleu @ 27: Unreservedly protecting everyone’s 2nd amendment rights is obviously not working. Molson Bleu @ 40: I think that we should get our heads out of the sand and acknowledge that our obsession with the 2nd amendment, and refusal to alter it in any way, is a large part of the problem.
When presented with a proven (by Israelis) solution to mass shootings in U.S. schools (less than a couple dozen deaths every few years) by hardening schools, you argue it won't solve the root cause of "crazies getting guns in the first place". When presented with a solution to prevent teen texting while driving deaths (thousands per year, every year) by preventing teens from owning cell phones in the first place, you argue for the "hardening of cars". You aren't about "root causes" or "solutions" of teen deaths. You're just about depriving law-abiding gun owners of their 2nd Amendment constitutional rights, and you'll use any excuse you think might fly, and you don't even recognize your own excuses.Charles
March 1, 2018
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