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But didn’t everyone know this about dogs?

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From Evolution News & Views:

Excerpt: In his latest book, geneticist Wolf-Ekkehard Lönnig of the Max Planck Institutes in Germany takes on the widespread view that dog breeds prove macroevolution. … He shows in great detail that the incredible variety of dog breeds, going back in origin several thousand years ago but especially to the last few centuries, represents no increase in information but rather a decrease or loss of function on the genetic and anatomical levels.

But of course this would be true because we breed dogs for functions that come at the expense of other ones. Functions that help us more than the dog—except insofar as we look after him. But that isn’t natural selection.

Michael Behe writes:

“Dr. Lönnig shows forcefully that one of the chief examples Darwinists rely on to convince the public of macroevolution — the enormous variation in dogs — actually shows the opposite. Extremes in size and anatomy come at the cost of broken genes and poor health. Even several gene duplications were found to interfere strongly with normal growth and development as is also often the case in humans. So where is the evidence for Darwinian evolution now?
The science here is indeed solid. Intriguingly, Lönnig’s prediction from 2013 on starch digestion in wolves has already been confirmed in a study published this year. … ”

Solid science actually won’t make much difference compared to the Darwinian narrative. For that, see Why the narrative trumps facts. Narrative decides which facts are allowed to matter. Facts about dog breeds are not important when citing them as an example with lots of great photo ops helps market Darwinism to the public.

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Comments
Tamara Knight You are hiding behind semantics and your own personal definitions again Joe That's when he's not posting his usual Monty Python "Argument Clinic" defense... "There is no ToE!!! "There is no NS!!" "There are no unguided mutations!!" "Your side has no evidence!!"Adapa
November 13, 2014
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Only in your mind, Tamara.Joe
November 13, 2014
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You are hiding behind semantics and your own personal definitions again JoeTamara Knight
November 13, 2014
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Tamara Knight:
I’m not denying that selection operates ON mutation am I.
NS doesn't operate on anything.Joe
November 13, 2014
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Natural selection is blind and mindless. If the mutations are directed then the process is not blind and mindless and that means it isn't natural selection.Joe
November 13, 2014
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Obviously you have a very limited view of natural selection and it isn’t up to me to educate you.
No you don't, but please do. I'm not denying that selection operates ON mutation am I. Why would a biologist need to say that evoloution requires random mutation then natural selection, if "natural selection" on its own covers all the bases?Tamara Knight
November 13, 2014
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The first step in selection, the production of genetic variation, Genetic variation occurs by MUTATIONS. “Natural selection is the result of differences in survival and reproduction among individuals of a population that vary in one or more heritable traits.” Page 11 “Biology: Concepts and Applications” Starr fifth edition Heritable traits vary by MUTATIONS to the genome. “Natural selection is the simple result of variation, differential reproduction, and heredity—it is mindless and mechanistic.” UBerkley Variation refers to MUTATIONS.Joe
November 13, 2014
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Tamara- The variation refers to mutations. And yes, natural selection requires that the mutations be accidents, errors and mistakes, otherwise it isn't NS. Random, as in chance/ happenstance, variation is part of the equation. Obviously you have a very limited view of natural selection and it isn't up to me to educate you.Joe
November 13, 2014
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Joe: I just provided accepted definitions of natural selection....
Indeed you did.
....and they all include mutations.
No they don't. Not one of them mentions mutation.
Natural selection- The process by which in every generation individuals of lower fitness are removed from the population- Mayr “What Evolution Is” The first step in selection, the production of genetic variation...
I don't contest the part you attribute to Mayr. It is not clear that the rest is quoted from the same source, but even if it is you are assigning more significance to a word than the author intended. "Selection" operates by selecting from existing variation ONLY, but the limits to what it can achieve are severely constrained without a constant source of new variation
Natural selection requires the mutations to be accidents, errors and mistakes.
No it doesn't. In the wild, natural selection operates on ALL variation, however it is caused. If a GM gene ever becomes established in the wild it will be via intelligent mutation and NATURAL selection. Claiming that natural selection needs to determine the source of a mutation before acting is akin to proposing that this week's lottery balls conspire with each other about which is coming out to avoid breaking the law of averages. Note this does NOT preclude you claiming that traits of the resulting organism are not a product of naturalistic evolution, but exist only because of an historical input from a designer, in this case a GM engineer.Tamara Knight
November 13, 2014
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So Tamara tried to tell us about evolution and ended up getting schooled on the entailments of natural selection. Glad we could helpJoe
November 13, 2014
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Tamara, I just provided accepted definitions of natural selection and they all include mutations. Ernst Mayr, one of the architects of the modern synthesis said mutations are part of natural selection-
Natural selection- The process by which in every generation individuals of lower fitness are removed from the population- Mayr "What Evolution Is" The first step in selection, the production of genetic variation, is almost exclusively a chance phenomenon except that the nature of the changes at a given locus is strongly constrained. Chance also plays an important role even at the second step, the process of elimination of less fit individuals. Chance may be particularly important in the haphazard survival during periods of mass extinction. Ibid
Natural selection requires the mutations to be accidents, errors and mistakes.Joe
November 12, 2014
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Joe Natural selection includes mutations.
No it doesn't Joe. The clue is in the name. Natural selection simply increases the frequency of some existing mutations at the expense of the frequency of other existing mutations. Darwin did not even know what a mutation was. Evolution as a biologist understands it is natural selection acting on random mutation. Animal husbandry is artificial selection acting on random mutation.
And if the fish adapted themselves to the net size then that is a different story.
Not sure what you mean here. By "if the fish adapted themselves", do you mean "if the fish decided to evolve into smaller fish", then that would certainly be a different story. But I'm only proposing that the fish that already have genes which predispose them to reproduction over growth will become more common in the presence on predation by fishing net.Tamara Knight
November 12, 2014
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Tamara, Natural selection includes mutations. Haven't you been following along? And if the fish adapted themselves to the net size then that is a different story.Joe
November 12, 2014
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Are you prepared to agree now that selective predation by insects, and unintended selective predation (i.e fishing net mesh size) by humans are examples of natural selection?
Joe It all depends on whether or not the mutations were accidents, errors or mistakes.
You're jumping the gun there, we're still on selection! For the sake of this argument, don't add the complication of mutations. We are just talking about changing the ratios of existing genes across populations. The bell curve of "looks like food" moves to the "I don't fancy eating that" end of the spectrum, and the "age and size at sexual maturity" bell curve moves towards the "stay small and do it young" end. Then is it unambiguously natural selection?Tamara Knight
November 12, 2014
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Tamara Knight:
I’m might contest that minor point later, because fitness is meaningless without reproductive success.
Exactly, however the trait or traits do not have to be heritable.
Are you prepared to agree now that selective predation by insects, and unintended selective predation (i.e fishing net mesh size) by humans are examples of natural selection?
It all depends on whether or not the mutations were accidents, errors or mistakes.Joe
November 12, 2014
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Joe Check that- individual fitness does not require the traits to be heritable.
I'm might contest that minor point later, because fitness is meaningless without reproductive success. It traits that improve fitness (however you define it) are not inherited, then the next generation is necessarily less fit. But that said, superficially there seems little in your post to disagree with. I wonder though why you were so reluctant to categorise the examples of selection I posted pages ago. Are you prepared to agree now that selective predation by insects, and unintended selective predation (i.e fishing net mesh size) by humans are examples of natural selection?
Someone else meaning not yourself and an intelligent agency acting consciously to help you.
That seems a perfectly acceptable definition to me. Unless of course your definition of "intelligent agency acting consciously" includes purposeless acts from intelligent agents, or bacteria just deciding it's time to evolve some anti-biotic resistance. Other than that, we seem good on the selection side. Maybe we can move on to the mutation side.Tamara Knight
November 12, 2014
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Silver Asiatic With a few very minor exceptions, the effects of natural selection are not estimated or predicted. It can’t even be predicted which mutations confer an adaptive advantage because so much depends on environmental factors, resources, competitive pressures and even the effect of other mutations in the same organism.
Wow, and ID proponent who almost understands evolution!
They’re written as if nature selects traits that confer greater fitness.
If this is so it is not a deliberate intention, and is rather at odds with the idea of an undirected blind watchmaker. Far more likely down to carry over from the woo-merchants promoting the Gaia hypothesisTamara Knight
November 12, 2014
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Fixed broken link insular dwarfism.Adapa
November 12, 2014
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Silver Asiatic With a few very minor exceptions, the effects of natural selection are not estimated or predicted. It can’t even be predicted which mutations confer an adaptive advantage because so much depends on environmental factors, resources, competitive pressures and even the effect of other mutations in the same organism. Specific mutations can't be predicted but overall trends certainly can be. One good example is insular dwarfism.
Insular dwarfism, a form of phyletic dwarfism, is the process and condition of the reduction in size of large animals over a number of generations[a] when their population's range is limited to a small environment, primarily islands. This natural process is distinct from the intentional creation of dwarf breeds, called dwarfing. This process has occurred many times throughout evolutionary history, with examples including dinosaurs, like Europasaurus, and modern animals such as elephants and their relatives. This process, and other "island genetics" artifacts, can occur not only on traditional islands, but also in other situations where an ecosystem is isolated from external resources and breeding. This can include caves, desert oases, isolated valleys and isolated mountains ("sky islands"). Insular dwarfism is one aspect of the more general "island rule", which posits that when mainland animals colonize islands, small species tend to evolve larger bodies, and large species tend to evolve smaller bodies.
Casinos can't predict the result of individual roulette rolls but they know for sure in the long run the house will win money. Beyond that, natural selection is not a force that causes anything. Nothing is selected. Animals that survive to reproduce in a population have been naturally selected by definition. Are these layman's weak semantic games all you have to offer? Do you think that will impress professional biologists and geneticists, make them reject evolutionary theory?Adapa
November 12, 2014
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Gravity causes the water to move to a local point of lower potential energy. Is a similar way natural selection causes a population to move to a local point of increased reproductive fitness.
Comparing natural selection to gravity. The first, most obvious difference is that we can predict, with a high degree of accuracy, the effects of gravity. Secondly, gravity is a force or a causation. With a few very minor exceptions, the effects of natural selection are not estimated or predicted. It can't even be predicted which mutations confer an adaptive advantage because so much depends on environmental factors, resources, competitive pressures and even the effect of other mutations in the same organism. Beyond that, natural selection is not a force that causes anything. Nothing is selected. So, natural selection is like gravity? That's one of the games that evolutionists like to play: "Evolution is more certain than gravity", as I've heard it said.Silver Asiatic
November 12, 2014
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Joe:
Darwin used “natural selection” to fool people into thinking nature actually selects and there is power to the process. ... I have encountered evolutionists who think nature actually selects.
I have encountered evolutionists who think that same thing -- and many in the general public think that. I've seen the same think in popular science articles. They're written as if nature selects traits that confer greater fitness. Adapa:
Natural selection is merely the name we give to the differential reproductive success ...
They call it natural selection rather than "differential reproductive success" for a reason. Natural selection is the blind watchmaker. It's the unintelligent designer (which actually doesn't select or design - in fact, it's not an agent that does anything). So, the term "natural selection" is deceptive and powerful enough to fool lots of people. That's why we don't call it "differential reproductive success", which is a more accurate term.Silver Asiatic
November 12, 2014
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Check that- individual fitness does not require the traits to be heritable.Joe
November 12, 2014
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Tamara, That definition is the accepted definition of natural selection. I provided support for that claim:
“Natural selection is the result of differences in survival and reproduction among individuals of a population that vary in one or more heritable traits.” Page 11 “Biology: Concepts and Applications” Starr fifth edition
“Natural selection is the simple result of variation, differential reproduction, and heredity—it is mindless and mechanistic.” UBerkley
“Natural selection is the blind watchmaker, blind because it does not see ahead, does not plan consequences, has no purpose in view.” Dawkins in “The Blind Watchmaker”?
“Natural selection is therefore a result of three processes, as first described by Darwin: Variation Inheritance Fecundity which together result in non-random, unequal survival and reproduction of individuals, which results in changes in the phenotypes present in populations of organisms over time.”- Allen McNeill prof. introductory biology and evolution at Cornell University
Please tell us how what I posted differs from those. So what if Darwin failed to fool people? I bet he fooled many back in his day. And I have encountered evolutionists who think nature actually selects. Fitness is all about traits- heritable traits- that allow the organism to survive and have a chance at reproduction. Someone helping you is not a heritable trait. Someone helping you means you didn't do it and most likely would have been eliminated if left to your own devices. You required someone else's traits to save you. Someone else meaning not yourself and an intelligent agency acting consciously to help you. Now why don't YOU start saying what you think natural selection, artificial selection and fitness mean in your world.Joe
November 12, 2014
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Joe, you say
I accept the standard definitions of fitness and natural selection.
then two posts later:
Natural selection is differential reproduction due to heritable random (as in happenstance) variation.
you give us your own definition! Progress of a kind I quess, at least you put a position on record. Can we have your take on the "standard defintion" of fitness next please?
Darwin used “natural selection” to fool people into thinking nature actually selects and there is power to the process.
If that was his intention, he seems to have failed dismally. He didn't fool evolutionary biologists, and presumably you don't think he fooled you and your ilk, so who are the people he did fool?
And if you can’t figure that out then we cannot have a discussion. It is very clear and my 12 year old understands it.
But I see the whole point of the discussion is to explore and understand the views of others. If you think you have a consistent view of the science of life, why parrot the views of others if you can dazzle me with your insight? Please explain in language a twelve year old could understand precisely what you mean by “help from someone else” in the context of an organism's survival. Must that "someone" be a person? Must the someone have intended to "help"? Or maybe introduce your twelve year old to UD and let him/her explain it. (And see how Dad handles himself on a public forum too).Tamara Knight
November 12, 2014
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Adapa:
Natural selection is merely the name we give to the differential reproductive success empirically observed in wild animal populations.
That is incorrect and even elementary school kids know it is incorrect. Natural selection is differential reproduction due to heritable random (as in happenstance) variation. Darwin used "natural selection" to fool people into thinking nature actually selects and there is power to the process.Joe
November 12, 2014
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Adapa:
How can evolutionary theory have standard definitions of fitness and natural selection when you say evolutionary theory doesn’t exist?
LoL! I never said anything about any evolutionary theory. Definitions of fitness and natural selection can exist without any evolutionary theory. You didn't think that through, did you?Joe
November 12, 2014
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I accept the standard definitions of fitness and natural selection.
No you hide behind your personal definitions.
No, you do not get to tell me what I do and don't do. I accept and use the standard definitions of both fitness and natural selection. There isn't any evidence to the contrary and Tamara cannot make a case for her claims.
As a working definition that’s okay for now provided we agree the nature of “help from someone else”.
And if you can't figure that out then we cannot have a discussion. It is very clear and my 12 year old understands it.Joe
November 12, 2014
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Axel Likewise, ‘natural selection’, in itself, is a nonsense. The act of ‘selecting’ requires a mind and will. Rather, it seems to be a misnomer for an ‘inherited aptitude for survival in a particular environment’. Er, no. Natural selection is merely the name we give to the differential reproductive success empirically observed in wild animal populations. There is no mind or will required. Selection of breeding requiring a human mind and will we call artificial selection. C'mon guys, these are basic concepts most elementary school kids can understand.Adapa
November 11, 2014
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@ Adapa #279 'How can evolutionary theory have standard definitions of fitness and natural selection when you say evolutionary theory doesn’t exist?' Res ipsa loquitur. When Joe said evolutionary theory doesn't exist, he would have meant that it is entirely factitious, a fantasy. However, since it is the atheists' received 'wisdom', in that capacity, i.e. as a widely-shared fantasy of theirs, of course it can and, indeed, would have a standard definition. Likewise, 'natural selection', in itself, is a nonsense. The act of 'selecting' requires a mind and will. Rather, it seems to be a misnomer for an 'inherited aptitude for survival in a particular environment'.Axel
November 11, 2014
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Joe I accept the standard definitions of fitness and natural selection.
No you hide behind your personal definitions. You state:
That fitness refers to that which can survive and reproduce without any help from someone else.
As a working definition that's okay for now provided we agree the nature of "help from someone else". So when I ask:
So Joe, just to clarify, you are stating you think the term fitness only applies until “someone” (i.e. a person) purposefully tries to manipulate nature.
The answer is not "Nope, keep fishing." The response from somebody interested in honest debate and with confidence in his own ideas would be to say exactly which words in that sentence he disagrees with.Tamara Knight
November 11, 2014
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