Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Darwinism and academic culture: Mathematician Jeffrey Shallit weighs in

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You can tell that Darwinism is failing when it attracts completely ridiculous attacks like this one, on Signature in the Cell (Harper One, 2009). The gist is that Nagel thought Meyer’s book a prize.* But Shallit says,

Meyer claims, over and over again, that information can only come from a mind — and that claim is an absolutely essential part of his argument. Nagel, the brilliant philosopher, should see why that is false. Consider making a weather forecast. Meteorologists gather information about the environment to do so: wind speed, direction, temperature, cloud cover, etc. It is only on the basis of this information that they can make predictions. What mind does this information come from?

What mind indeed? If we experience either snow or dull, freezing rain here tomorrow, why should I be surprised? This is the season officially known as winter.

So, maybe Nagel, the brilliant philosopher, knows more than Shallit, the University of Waterloo prof.

I thought Thomas Nagel’s discussion of animal mind, in “What is it like to be a bat?” was the best of its type, in elucidating the difficulties of a materialist explanation of mind. I would commend it to all.

For example, the information that explains how the butterfly emerges from the mess of the pupa, after the caterpillar has done its bit by constantly eating leaves, is vastly more complex than the information that explains why rain falls or snow blankets. We seek an explanation for metamorphosis, not for why rain or snow falls.

Here is an example:

So how is the trick done inside the “magic box” of the pupa? As one biologist told me, “The entire caterpillar dissolves, and is reconstructed as a butterfly.” The stored energy from the caterpillar’s voracious eating habits creates that? … ridiculous. Let’s hear more explanations, and subject them to tests, based on the life of the universe.

*Signature in the Cell (Harper One, 2009) was literally a prize at Uncommon Descent recently. I hope for more copies soon, for more contests and more prizes.

Comments
There's so much fake concern over the definition of information. It's the via (noun) by which anything arises that can't be explained by what we believe to be "natural" processes. The word is the totality of one side of the debate, ID's side. No use reading the rest of this post because that's it. The laws themselves which make lightning occur, and gravity etc are all likely from a sentient source, but their mechanistic via is seen to be easily reproduced by nature on it's own. This is an opinion. The grey area of information vs. nature will be as large as not enough is known but it will likely always be an opinion. But to pretend one or the other doesn't exist is for some religions. It can never be determined outright, if every instance of gravity isn't being controlled by god, or if no god was never involved. But it can be seen that the probability of god creating each gravity moment newly isn't worth talking about - so that gets put on the "natural" shelf. And someday hopefully god's "handiwork left behind on automatic" can be studied by ID in a meaningful way. When you deny information exists, you have to then deny everything exists, except for maybe a few subjective ideas, because it's on par with observing a wall. We don't have a handle on the mathematical absolute knowledge of anything, yet something exists. Give me a break. Science was never intended to make logic it's master, and it never could. It's always subservient to logic "what makes sense", because tools were never built into science to overcome logic. It's always going to be about opinions of data. Some scientists want you to believe your opinion of their data doesn't count. Why not? You're on equal ground with anyone else when looking at raw results.lamarck
December 26, 2009
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"Phew – reality has asserted itself, and we disagree." It's your obligation to show why you disagree with my point. I am not aware of any instances where ID is at odds with reality. Individual people make assertions but that does not mean that their assertions are essential to ID. Like anything in science it is modified by additional data. As far as information that Meyer is concerned with: when one data sources specifies the content in another data source that is an unusual type of information. I continually give the same answer to everyone here. Ask the biology programs around the globe what they mean by biological information. They use it all the time. And then listen to a Berkeley course on the history of information to try understand the various ways the term information can be used. Until you can show how the type of information Meyer refers to arises in nature, then maybe you should refrain from criticizing Meyer or ID or defending Shallit's specious non relevant comment. Shallit is referring to a different type of information and trying to conflate the two. That you cannot see this is interesting. Meyer doesn't have to use the term FSCI. Anyone who criticizes the term should deal with the content of the term rather than the term itself.jerry
December 26, 2009
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Why should you be worried. ID is based on truth, an accurate reading of the physical universe. It makes logical conclusions based on that reading. What I said was obvious. What Shallit said was specious and is also obvious.
Phew - reality has asserted itself, and we disagree. :-) To me, ID isn't an accurate reading of the physical universe, and I'd also disagree that what Shallit said was specious. And I'm not sure it's obvious, either. this was why I was trying to unpack what was meant by information, and where it was being created or just transmitted.
What Meyer is saying is that certain types of information only seem to be able to be created by a mind. We have had the same discussion here a hundred times or more. We call this information, FSCI or functionally specified complex information.
Does he use the term FCSI? And how does he define "information" in FCSI? I assume you're able to just quote the passage where he explains what he means by "information".Heinrich
December 26, 2009
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"Hm. I’m worried. Seriously worried. We agree." Why should you be worried. ID is based on truth, an accurate reading of the physical universe. It makes logical conclusions based on that reading. What I said was obvious. What Shallit said was specious and is also obvious. "In particular, is Meyer saying that mind-independent information cannot be created? i.e. a physical process cannot lead to an increase in the information that would be measured?" I doubt that he believes this because there are lots of types of information. In your sentence you are using the term in a general fashion and could mean any of the many types of information. But as we have said only a mind designates it as information whether the information exists or not in nature. That is neither here nor there and has nothing to do with the argument made in his book because he is not talking about information in general. It may be an interesting question to debate in a philosophy class but it has nothing to do with origin of life or evolution. What Meyer is saying is that certain types of information only seem to be able to be created by a mind. We have had the same discussion here a hundred times or more. We call this information, FSCI or functionally specified complex information. (Some will make the fatuous argument that no one else except us uses this term and therefore it is invalid but that has nothing to do with the relevance of the argument) The information in DNA when looked at in a certain way is this type information and is essentially similar to the information contained in language and computer programming. This type of information is found as a result of intelligence all the time but is not found in nature at all except in certain aspects of DNA. So the question is can nature using the forces of nature only, produce this type of information. The answer so far is it cannot. To say it has produced it in life is begging the question because that is the entity under discussion. So all the processes of nature from the beginning of time and all the scientists in laboratories all over the globe have not been able to produce this type of information in even the littlest bit. I expect that in some time in the future a great fanfare will be made and some group of scientists will show how a small amount of this type of information was created by using some unusual combination of forces. But even such an event will probably be only child's play compared to what will be necessary to produce true FSCI. The "C" stands for complex and represents thousands of bits of information and even that is only a token of what is present in the simplest cell. But we have a legion of anti ID people here who deny the obvious. Which is why when it comes to science it is ID that is scientifically based and the anti ID which is religiously or sophistry based.jerry
December 26, 2009
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jerry @13 -
The term information has unknown numbers of meanings. The argument that it is only produced by the mind is in a sense true and not true. If there were no humans or entities in the universe of similar oh higher levels of intelligence, many combinations of natural entities, not life, would not be considered information because no mind could make such a designation. But the combinations of natural entities would exist non the less.
Hm. I'm worried. Seriously worried. We agree. As I still haven't won a copy of SotC, can someone explain what concept Meyer uses? In particular, is Meyer saying that mind-independent information cannot be created? i.e. a physical process cannot lead to an increase in the information that would be measured?Heinrich
December 26, 2009
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BTW, wind speed, etc., does not exist in a natural state, but are concepts of minds and as such can only be ascertained by mental activity. Shallits's pasted blurb is just some very grasping and not well thought out gobblydegook.Anaxagoras_Rules
December 25, 2009
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Quote from wikipedia: Messenger ribonucleic acid (mRNA) is a molecule of RNA encoding a chemical "blueprint" for a protein product. mRNA is transcribed from a DNA template, and carries coding information to the sites of protein synthesis: the ribosomes ... In mRNA as in DNA, genetic information is encoded in the sequence of nucleotides arranged into codons consisting of three bases each. Each codon encodes for a specific amino acid, except the stop codons that terminate protein synthesis. This process requires two other types of RNA: transfer RNA (tRNA) mediates recognition of the codon and provides the corresponding amino acid, while ribosomal RNA (rRNA) is the central component of the ribosome's protein manufacturing machinery.Collin
December 25, 2009
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UNLESS the cell can be viewed as a hardware decoder designed by mind. Why not?tribune7
December 25, 2009
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groovamos, I don't see how it is a circular conundrum. The tRNA and mRNA can't be designed to be a "decoder" of sorts?Collin
December 25, 2009
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:I’m losing patience with the use of information theory “concepts” or non-concepts as the case may be, to push ID in the marketplace.: The term "information" has many meanings and from what I understand the use of it in the Shannon sense doe not have anything to do with the most common use of the term in biology.. Your are a MSEE and apparently know something about Shannon information. Would you say that the information in a computer program or an English paragraph is information in the Shannon sense? From what little I understand, it isn't.jerry
December 25, 2009
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Jeffrey says in his example that weather information does not originate in mind(s). I disagree in part; but he is on to something regarding the nature of/ or inherent existence or nonexistence of information in the weather. Does weather have informational content? No. Do units of measure? Yes. Do the designs of transducers and sensors? Yes again. The last two arise in minds and in the Shannon sense are part of the coding problem, and are indispensible for collecting weather information. And so weather information does originate in minds, because the coding originates in minds. This in my view is a conundrum for Jeffrey's argument, and is in fact laughingly related to the insistence of scientists that there is a such thing as a "genetic code", a term used to wow each other and the public in general. By relying on the "wow" factor to keep the funding coming, life scientists in this case are unintentionally implying a mind behind the "genetic code", because codes originate in minds. Including computer coding, because minds produce the hardware, assemblers and compilers that translate codes into function. Alternatively if there is a such thing as a genetic code then by the above reasoning there would have to be a mind in the cell for there to be a such thing as meaningful information, since information requires a mind to code and a mind to decode, UNLESS the cell can be viewed as a hardware decoder designed by mind. This may be a circular conundrum for ID and although I support ID, I'm losing patience with the use of information theory "concepts" or non-concepts as the case may be, to push ID in the marketplace. I think there is confusion sown by the use of little understood concepts. Engineer here, with an MSEE which is also how Shannon was credentialed before he obtained his PhD in math. I never see in the literature that Shannon was an engineer first and a mathematician second.groovamos
December 25, 2009
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Consider making a weather forecast. Meteorologists gather information about the environment to do so: wind speed, direction, temperature, cloud cover, etc. It is only on the basis of this information that they can make predictions. What mind does this information come from? The information is derived from standards and definitions that were created by the minds of men, well, like Anders Celsius. Without these standards -- intelligently designed, if you will -- the information would not exist.tribune7
December 25, 2009
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The term information has unknown numbers of meanings. The argument that it is only produced by the mind is in a sense true and not true. If there were no humans or entities in the universe of similar oh higher levels of intelligence, many combinations of natural entities, not life, would not be considered information because no mind could make such a designation. But the combinations of natural entities would exist non the less. The moon is lifeless, so we presume, but there contains all sorts of combinations of natural entities that once a mind considers it, is considered information using many of the common uses of information. These combinations of entities, craters, rocks, dust, crevices etc, are definitely information to the geologist and other scientists. Similarly, temperatures, wind speed, etc are pieces of information to the mind. Were they information prior to the mind observing them. Some might argue yes, some no. But the issue is really pointless in the debate over evolution or the origin of life or the origin of the universe. The issue becomes are there certain entities that can only come into existence through an intelligence and do these entities possess a certain type of information that is different than other types of information. If I take a walk in the woods, and pick up a rock, this rock contains all sorts of information. For example, the very place it was laying and its orientation and its comparison to its surrounding might tell me how long the rock has been there and its potential origin. If someone did a chemical analysis of the rock and suppose there was a technique to describe each molecule in the rock and its position relative to every other molecule, then I would have a very complete description of the rock. All this is information. Suppose someone did further analysis of the rock and realized that it pointed to an opening in a cave 50 feet away. Now that could be a coincidence or it could mean that some intelligence placed the rock there. If it just happened to be a coincidence is that information. If some intelligence placed the rock there, then most would call that information. Again remembering that there are many, many uses of the term "information." Also if one did a chemical analysis of the rock and then realized that many of the combinations of the various molecules led to the production of an exterior gas which led to the formation of other types of rock or other entities that made it easier for rocks to form, we would be amazed. We would call these sub combinations information too but in a different sense than the previous types of information used about this rock. If these processes were actually quite simple but still efficacious in producing new rocks, we would not call the process intelligence based but an interesting phenomena of nature. It would be in all the chemical and geology books and be studied. However, if the entities produced by these sub combination produced highly intricate systems that inter worked with each other to produce factories for producing rocks, we would step back and say how is this possible. And if these little rock systems producing factories found a way to perpetuate themselves, we would call it life and be amazed. We would look for the chemical properties of the molecules that would force these rock systems to start and continue to research them until we concluded that there does not seem to be any properties of chemicals that inevitably lead to such systems and the only source for such systems in our experience is intelligence. Of course the properties described does not exist, but it shows the different types of information that can be associated with a rock. It also shows that to conflate the fact that some of this information could exist with and without an intelligence to assess it with the type of information that only exists as a result of intelligence it a nonsense argument and one easily separated. There are many types of information in DNA. Just the description of the individual nucleotides is information. Their groupings relative to each other are information. If the nucleotide combinations were found to reliably spell out someone's name that would be another piece of information. So if we were able to reliably show that Craig Ventner is spelled out in the some set of nucleotides, that is information of a different nature using the same data set. If we found that the combinations of nucleotides coded for something extraneous to the DNA through a chemical process, that would be entirely different information using the same data set. If we found out that the nucleotides had different patterns in them, that would be information. If we found that the nucleotides cut off at certain points that would be information. The different types of information that might arise from nucleotides may almost be endless. But if certain subtypes of the various information generated by an examination of the nucleotides were identified as only arising from intelligent intervention, that does not make the other types of information that could arise through natural means, somehow contradict the intelligent origin of the other information. Shallit's argument is specious and the sad thing he knows it but yet proffers it. But we see that same phenomena here played out every day and the know nothing raise their fatuous objections.jerry
December 25, 2009
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Bruce, I am pretty sure that Matteo was using sarcasm to ridicule the idea that such a complex process came into being by pure chance. But this does raise a point that I hope may be helpful to mention here. If I may humbly offer a suggestion, I have always found communication to be most effective when clarity is chosen over cleverness. Cleverness may bring some small amusement to those who are already in agreement, but more often than not (as I have observed many times in this forum) it confuses one's supporters while having little effect on the opposition except prompting them to respond in the same way. Like salt on food, an occasional light sprinkling of wit may season our arguments, but it does not make a good main dish.sagebrush gardener
December 25, 2009
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Semiotics, anyone? I haven't read Signature of the Cell (I'm waiting to win one of Denyse's competitions. :-)), but I think one has had to be careful separating out the signified (e.g. the actual temperature), and the signified (e.g. the number that is written down). As I understand it, Shallit's point is that the actual temperature (whether recorded or not) is the information, in which case it exists independently of any intelligence. I can't comment on exactly what Meyer means by information, but it's clear that Dr. Dembski's information is something that exists independently of a human mind: it's a property of the cell. So the actual sequence of DNA is equivalent to the actual weather: it's something which is there.Heinrich
December 25, 2009
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To Mateo: You said, "Those insects which proceeded to grow into something useful after dissolving into a slurry went on to reproduce, while those that didn’t, didn’t. Those insects which dissolved after building a cocoon did even better! Don’t you see?!? It was Natural Selection which is the very antithesis of randomness!!!" You've missed a very crucial point--until you can show a possible evolutionary path by which an an insect which does not metamorphose reaches a state where it dissolves into a slurry and then "gr[ows] into something useful" by a series of incremental steps each of which enhances its fitness, you have nothing at all. And even then, you have to deal with the problem of how a slurry that is not contained (say within a cocoon) could possibly grow into anything at all.Bruce David
December 24, 2009
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When I first read this post, I thought, "Is Shallit serious? Of course the information comes from the human beings who decided what to measure, who set up the instrumentation to measure those quantities, and then who make the predictions based on those results." However, as I think a little more deeply, I believe that there is something else going on here. If I put myself in Shallit's shoes, I think that he equates all the complexity in the atmosphere with the complexity in the DNA. Since being a materialist (I assume) he sees DNA as having been produced by natural causes and the weather having been so produced as well, he sees no difference between the two in terms of information. In making this equivalence, however, he misses the distinction that differentiates CSI from complexity, and that is functional specificity. The complexity in the atmosphere that is the weather is neither specified nor is it functional. Therefore, although it is complex, it does not qualify as information by Meyer's definition (following Dembski, of course). Complexity can be and is produced by natural causes all the time throughout the Universe. It is complex, functionally specified information that requires a designing intelligence to create.Bruce David
December 24, 2009
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Well, pointing out Shallit's equivocation is quite right, but we can also, I think, simply take his argument and ask him what he realy knows at all. Okay, we have this "information" in the wind, clouds, etc. But what is this arguing at all? He has still said absolutely nothing because he is simply making a non-empirical assertion that we "know" that this "information" didn't come from a mind because we "know" that it didn't come from a mind. In actuality he has not changed the argument at all. He is trying to clarify Meyer's argument by using the exact same argument and saying, "but we know that weather is from purely natural and materialistic processes", but that is only an assumption. My question: How often does a process have to recur on its own until we pronounce it "natural" and "without the cause of a mind"? How many revolutions does a spinning top have to make before we say, "it 'obviously' started itself because it just keeps going"? How scientific is this? Just because we don't see an intervening finger to keep the top spinning doesn't mean that it didn't have one "In the beginning . . ."Brent
December 24, 2009
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Shallit is confusing two distinct meanings of the word information. The first meaning, which Shallit is using, is "knowledge obtained from investigation", i.e. a description of an object, event, etc. The second meaning -- the one intended by Meyer -- is "the attribute inherent in and communicated by one of two or more alternative sequences or arrangements of something (as nucleotides in DNA or binary digits in a computer program) that produce specific effects". To illustrate, that is like the difference between a picture of what I see on my computer screen vs. the millions of lines of computer programming that produced it. Or a description of the orchid sitting on my desk vs. the complex genetic code that determined its features. [ Source of definitions: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/information ]sagebrush gardener
December 24, 2009
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Shallit:
Meteorologists gather information about the environment to do so: wind speed, direction, temperature, cloud cover, etc. It is only on the basis of this information that they can make predictions. What mind does this information come from?
The meteorologist's?SCheesman
December 24, 2009
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Who could ever think that wind speed, temperatures, humidity, rainfall, and the times when they occurred are information? They are not. They are physical properties and events. They are neither information nor data. A drop of rain falling is not information. When one records, using some language, that a drop of rain fell, or other meteorological recordings, that is information. It requires language. Has the weather, without any intelligence, ever recorded or communicated an abstract, symbolic description of itself? Shallit's comment is willful cluelessness.ScottAndrews
December 24, 2009
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Well, with a name like Shallit that rhymes with...(no need here for elaboration)...it is all quite understandable.JPCollado
December 24, 2009
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Well isn't it obvious how caterpillars become butterflies? It's very simple: Those insects which proceeded to grow into something useful after dissolving into a slurry went on to reproduce, while those that didn't, didn't. Those insects which dissolved after building a cocoon did even better! Don't you see?!? It was Natural Selection which is the very antithesis of randomness!!! Yet another cdesign proponentist "puzzle" instantaneously refuted! You intelligent design creationists have zero understanding of Science! </sarc>Matteo
December 24, 2009
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Well, Shallit managed to trash a workshop he has never taken (and wouldn't need to, if he has tenure at your expense). One taught by an expert in non-tenured survival. If that is what you want, vote for it.O'Leary
December 24, 2009
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Thanks, Denise. I think the problem with Shallit's weather analogy is not the degree of complexity in information, it's a full-blown category error. He's conflating data with information. Wind speed, temperature, etc are data, measurements. Wind has to have a speed. Cloud cover has to have an area. This is necessity. Data and information are commonly used as synonyms, but Meyer clearly does not intend this meaning with his technical use of the word information. Shallit either knows this and uses the common meaning of information as synonymous with data as a deceptive equivocation or he's just one dumb mathematician.landru
December 24, 2009
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