Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Darwinism has already been quietly abandoned, and people are mainly afraid of the bereft trolls?

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Here’s an interesting perspective from Paul Benedict (War of Words, July 2, 2011):

Stephen C. Meyer, expounding Intelligent Design in his book Signature in the Cell, makes a point he does not seem to appreciate: for decades microbiologists have been abandoning Darwinism. Breakthrough technologies have shown that life at the cellular level is complex beyond anything Darwin or any 19th century biologist could have predicted. From the variety of cellular functions to the complex information transmitted in the gene, many outstanding scientists recognize that the math just doesn’t work. Intelligent Design represents only one concession to the statistical impossibility that chance caused the life of simple cells. Interrupting the following parade of microbiologists who, like Meyers, recognize that random chance alone cannot have produced the simplest cellular life, are conclusions flowing from this scientific consensus. 

Christian de Duve, for example, a Nobel Prize winner, and in no way an advocate of Intelligent Design, has abandoned random chance as the agent of upwards evolution or the ascent of man. He envisions primordial planet earth as a chemical reaction waiting to happen. Recognizing that the odds of random chance being impossibly against the formation of a single cell, let alone man, he has ceaselessly been searching for the string of chemical reactions that, once started, must have inevitably and, without chance, led to mankind. So far… no luck.

Ilya Prigogine, won his 1977 Nobel Prize for his theory that biological life self-assembled from inorganic non-life through the non-equilibrium thermodynamic processes. Again, random chance was abandoned, this time for the notion of an outside force arising in a thermodynamic process that, somehow, energized evolution. Such a force has never been identified.

Manfred Eigen, won the Nobel Prize in 1967 for his work measuring extremely fast chemical reactions brought about by energy pulses. Though proud to use the term evolution, his models of the origin of life are not based on chance but on self-organizing chemical reactions that cycle to higher and higher levels. He is also the author of Eigen’s Paradox that explains a critical problem in positing cycles of RNA that lead to DNA.

Lynn Margulis believes parasites aided random chance in the evolution of the cell.

Freeman Dyson, feeling random chance and self-organizing molecular scenarios are insufficient seems to believe in a combination of Eigens self-organizing RNA cycles andLynn Margulis sense that cellular evolution was the result of parasites.

Michael Polanyi, whose interest in science often impacted his philosophic notions, rejected chance as the origin of life in Lifes Irreducible Structure.

Bernd-Olaf Kuppers, like Michael Polanyi, supports his notions that the whole (the living cell) is greater than the sum of its parts (chemical reactions) with evidence that random chance cannot result in the irreducible complexity of a living organism (60) nor explain the information it transmits.

Bernd-Olaf Kuppers, using methodology like that of noted Darwinian apologist Richard Dawkins, also modeled mathematical algorithms that guide randomly generated computer simulations of origin of life scenarios. Kuppers calls his theory of self-organization the molecular-Darwinistic approach. It is hard to tell what Kuppers means by statements like, inanimate matter organized itself of its own accord into animate systems (82). More.

A libertarian, he ends with a Cry, Fredom: “Tradition dies hard in every generation. Ignorance is not a lack of information; it is willfully ignoring knowledge. Centralized bureaucratic power breeds fear even in professionals, but tenured teachers can do better. It’s time to tell the kids: it is statistically impossible that Darwin’s explanation of the origin of life is correct.”

Comments
Elizabeth and so the story goes!!! and your concrete proof for all this is what?bornagain77
July 3, 2011
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ba77:
No Driver, actually the truth is that a limit has been found by Dr. Behe for neo-Darwinian evolution and that neo-Darwinists have simply not accepted, not refuted, the reality of the ‘limits’ that Dr. Behe has elucidated for neo-Darwinian evolution in his book ‘”The Edge of Evolution"
This is a problem ba77 - you continually assert, and, I am sure, believe in all honesty, that certain claims that you think falsify "neo-Darwinism" have not been refuted, or have been ignored. However, some of us disagree with you! My own view is that the refutations of Behe's argument have been extremely persuasive, and to my knowledge, he has not presented a counter-rebuttal. Which is not to say say there are no limits to Darwinian evolution - there are, very powerful ones. And what is interesting is that we see living things heavily constrained to evolve within those limits. That is an argument for Darwinian evolution, not against it.Elizabeth Liddle
July 3, 2011
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ba77
correction; the grand overriding claim of neo-Darwinism is that we came from bacteria by purely undirected processes. Do you honestly think that this grand overriding claim can be supported?
This is not the "grand overriding claim of" what you call "neo-Darwinism" (still not sure what that term is supposed to mean). One "grand claim" that Darwin made was that both bacteria and all other living things, including us, may have descended from a common ancestor. But, actually, the mechanism for diversification that Darwin proposed is just as applicable to several common ancestors, as is reflected in the quote you posted above. However, it is true that since then, we have found that common ancestry of bacteria and other living things is likely. That is not the same as saying that all other living things descended from bacteria. However, it is saying that that common ancestor was almost certainly unicellular. Bacteria are unicellular organisms. Not all unicellular organisms are bacteria.Elizabeth Liddle
July 3, 2011
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correction: Driver you state; 'So far no-one has found any limits to the process.' No Driver, actually the truth is that a limit has been found by Dr. Behe for neo-Darwinian evolution and that neo-Darwinists have simply not accepted, not refuted, the reality of the 'limits' that Dr. Behe has elucidated for neo-Darwinian evolution in his book '"The Edge of Evolution: The Search for the Limits of Darwinism"; notes; ,,,In fact, trying to narrow down an actual hard number for the truly beneficial mutation rate, that would actually explain the massively integrated machine-like complexity of proteins we find in life, is what Dr. Behe did in this following book: "The Edge of Evolution: The Search for the Limits of Darwinism" http://www.amazon.com/Edge-Evolution-Search-Limits-Darwinism/dp/0743296206 The Edge Of Evolution - Michael Behe - Video Lecture http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/199326-1 A review of The Edge of Evolution: The Search for the Limits of Darwinism The numbers of Plasmodium and HIV in the last 50 years greatly exceeds the total number of mammals since their supposed evolutionary origin (several hundred million years ago), yet little has been achieved by evolution. This suggests that mammals could have "invented" little in their time frame. Behe: ‘Our experience with HIV gives good reason to think that Darwinism doesn’t do much—even with billions of years and all the cells in that world at its disposal’ (p. 155). http://creation.com/review-michael-behe-edge-of-evolution Dr. Behe states in The Edge of Evolution on page 135: "Generating a single new cellular protein-protein binding site (in other words, generating a truly beneficial mutational event that would actually explain the generation of the complex molecular machinery we see in life) is of the same order of difficulty or worse than the development of chloroquine resistance in the malarial parasite." That order of difficulty is put at 10^20 replications of the malarial parasite by Dr. Behe. This number comes from direct empirical observation. Richard Dawkins’ The Greatest Show on Earth Shies Away from Intelligent Design but Unwittingly Vindicates Michael Behe - Oct. 2009 Excerpt: The rarity of chloroquine resistance is not in question. In fact, Behe’s statistic that it occurs only once in every 10^20 cases was derived from public health statistical data, published by an authority in the Journal of Clinical Investigation. The extreme rareness of chloroquine resistance is not a negotiable data point; it is an observed fact. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/10/richard_dawkins_the_greatest_s.html Thus, the actual rate for 'truly' beneficial mutations, which would account for the staggering machine-like complexity we see in life, is far in excess of one-hundred-billion-billion mutational events. So this one in a thousand, to one in a million, number for 'truly' beneficial mutations is actually far, far, too generous for an estimate for evolutionists to use as an estimate for beneficial mutations. "The likelihood of developing two binding sites in a protein complex would be the square of the probability of developing one: a double CCC (chloroquine complexity cluster), 10^20 times 10^20, which is 10^40. There have likely been fewer than 10^40 cells in the entire world in the past 4 billion years, so the odds are against a single event of this variety (just 2 binding sites being generated by accident) in the history of life. It is biologically unreasonable." Michael J. Behe PhD. (from page 146 of his book "Edge of Evolution") ================== An Atheist Interviews Michael Behe About "The Edge Of Evolution" - video http://www.in.com/videos/watchvideo-bloggingheads-interview-with-michael-behe-4734623.htmlbornagain77
July 3, 2011
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Driver you state; 'So far no-one has found any limits to the process.' No Driver, actually the truth is that a limit has been found by Dr. Behe for neo-Darwinian evolution and that neo-Darwinists have simply not accepted, not refuted, the reality of the 'limits' that Dr. Behe has elucidated for neo-Darwinian evolution in his book '"The Edge of Evolution: The Search for the Limits of Darwinism"b>; notes; ,,,In fact, trying to narrow down an actual hard number for the truly beneficial mutation rate, that would actually explain the massively integrated machine-like complexity of proteins we find in life, is what Dr. Behe did in this following book: "The Edge of Evolution: The Search for the Limits of Darwinism" http://www.amazon.com/Edge-Evolution-Search-Limits-Darwinism/dp/0743296206 The Edge Of Evolution - Michael Behe - Video Lecture http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/199326-1 A review of The Edge of Evolution: The Search for the Limits of Darwinism The numbers of Plasmodium and HIV in the last 50 years greatly exceeds the total number of mammals since their supposed evolutionary origin (several hundred million years ago), yet little has been achieved by evolution. This suggests that mammals could have "invented" little in their time frame. Behe: ‘Our experience with HIV gives good reason to think that Darwinism doesn’t do much—even with billions of years and all the cells in that world at its disposal’ (p. 155). http://creation.com/review-michael-behe-edge-of-evolution Dr. Behe states in The Edge of Evolution on page 135: "Generating a single new cellular protein-protein binding site (in other words, generating a truly beneficial mutational event that would actually explain the generation of the complex molecular machinery we see in life) is of the same order of difficulty or worse than the development of chloroquine resistance in the malarial parasite." That order of difficulty is put at 10^20 replications of the malarial parasite by Dr. Behe. This number comes from direct empirical observation. Richard Dawkins’ The Greatest Show on Earth Shies Away from Intelligent Design but Unwittingly Vindicates Michael Behe - Oct. 2009 Excerpt: The rarity of chloroquine resistance is not in question. In fact, Behe’s statistic that it occurs only once in every 10^20 cases was derived from public health statistical data, published by an authority in the Journal of Clinical Investigation. The extreme rareness of chloroquine resistance is not a negotiable data point; it is an observed fact. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/10/richard_dawkins_the_greatest_s.html Thus, the actual rate for 'truly' beneficial mutations, which would account for the staggering machine-like complexity we see in life, is far in excess of one-hundred-billion-billion mutational events. So this one in a thousand, to one in a million, number for 'truly' beneficial mutations is actually far, far, too generous for an estimate for evolutionists to use as an estimate for beneficial mutations. "The likelihood of developing two binding sites in a protein complex would be the square of the probability of developing one: a double CCC (chloroquine complexity cluster), 10^20 times 10^20, which is 10^40. There have likely been fewer than 10^40 cells in the entire world in the past 4 billion years, so the odds are against a single event of this variety (just 2 binding sites being generated by accident) in the history of life. It is biologically unreasonable." Michael J. Behe PhD. (from page 146 of his book "Edge of Evolution") ================== An Atheist Interviews Michael Behe About "The Edge Of Evolution" - video http://www.in.com/videos/watchvideo-bloggingheads-interview-with-michael-behe-4734623.htmlbornagain77
July 3, 2011
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the grand overriding claim of neo-Darwinism is that we came from bacteria by purely undirected processes. Do you honestly think that this grand overriding claim can be supported?
As a claim, it doesn't override other claims of the theory. I think it would be sensible to accept that some form of Darwinism is here to stay. The question is whether limits can be found to Darwinism. So far no-one has found any limits to the process. Find the limits and the scope of Darwinism is much reduced. My point is that the theory would not then be abandoned, at all.Driver
July 3, 2011
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correction; the grand overriding claim of neo-Darwinism is that we came from bacteria by purely undirected processes. Do you honestly think that this grand overriding claim can be supported?bornagain77
July 3, 2011
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Driver, and on the other hand, besides micro-evolutionary events which lose or modify preexisting information, the grand overriding claim of neo-Darwinism is that we came from bacteria. Do you honestly think that this grand overriding claim can be supported?bornagain77
July 3, 2011
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ID proponents will generally concede the fact of microevolution. I don't know how anyone can take seriously the idea that biologists are abandoning Darwinism when Darwinism (with limits) is affirmed even by the theory's staunchest critics.Driver
July 3, 2011
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allanius:
These are theoretical “microbiologists.” The abandonment is even more telling among applied microbiologists who do medical research. They don’t talk about Darwin. They talk in engineering terms–and engineering requires an engineer. There is a growing divide between the cultural narrative that is Darwinism, the theory, and the work going on in applied science. This is the divide that will lead to abandonment in the end. The same resistance that gives theories their unifying power also divides them from the varieties of sensuous experience. Microbiology is making this divide too obvious to ignore.
I just don't think this is true. What is, is that microbiologists are engaged at research on a quite different ("teleonomic" to use Monod's phrase) analytical level to evolutionary biologist. The fundamental underpinning of Darwinian theory is the tautology (i.e. the obviously true statement) that: patterns that are good at persisting will tend to persist for longer than patterns that are not! Or, if you prefer, that robust patterns will tend to be observed more often observed than non-robust patterns. This being (obviously) the case, persisting patterns, e.g. living things that keep replicating themselves should, if we look, have properties that promote self-persistence. This will include properties like self-repair,self-reproduction, self-maintenance. And all these properties are best investigated by analytical techniques derived from engineering - reverse-engineering, if you like. This doesn't mean that microbiologist have "abandoned" Darwin's theory, but have adopted its implications and gone on to look for exactly the mechanisms that must be there if the theory is true. There are, of course, other theories that will predict teleonomic mechanisms (including ID) so it is not a prediction that differentiates between Darwinism and ID, but it certainly does not require the abandonment of Darwinism. Teleonomic mechanisms are explicable under Darwinism, indeed they are fundamental to it. All microbiologists are doing is figuring out what they are.Elizabeth Liddle
July 3, 2011
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Spot on, News! Keep 'em coming like this one. F/N: BA, honourable mention, too.kairosfocus
July 3, 2011
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Thanks markf, yes that was my point. All Darwin wrote about the origin of life was: "...life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one..." I know of no other "explanation" of the origin of life offered by Darwin. That passage comes at the end of a book entitled "The Origin of Species". It simply does not address "The Origin of Life", except to suggest that the our universal common ancestor(s) had life breathed into them by a Creator. You could even argue that he was an IDist, but that he credited the Designer with a Design so powerful that all that was required to produce the variety we see of life on earth was an initial seeding with "a few [living] forms or... one". I do wonder why Darwin gets such a bad press here.Elizabeth Liddle
July 3, 2011
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These are theoretical "microbiologists." The abandonment is even more telling among applied microbiologists who do medical research. They don't talk about Darwin. They talk in engineering terms--and engineering requires an engineer. There is a growing divide between the cultural narrative that is Darwinism, the theory, and the work going on in applied science. This is the divide that will lead to abandonment in the end. The same resistance that gives theories their unifying power also divides them from the varieties of sensuous experience. Microbiology is making this divide too obvious to ignore.allanius
July 3, 2011
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by the way markf, did you see that recent peer-reviewed paper that showed Darwin's 'Origin Of Species' was primarily a Theological argument, not a scientific one??? Charles Darwin, Theologian: Major New Article on Darwin's Use of Theology in the Origin of Species - May 2011 http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/05/charles_darwin_theologian_majo046391.html ,,,A 'bad' theological argument that continues to this day,,, From Philosopher to Science Writer: The Dissemination of Evolutionary Thought - May 2011 Excerpt: The powerful theory of evolution hangs on this framework of thought that mandates naturalism. The science is weak but the metaphysics are strong. This is the key to understanding evolutionary thought. The weak arguments are scientific and the strong arguments, though filled with empirical observation and scientific jargon, are metaphysical. The stronger the argument, the more theological or philosophical. http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2011/05/from-philosopher-to-science-writer.html And the theological 'bad design' argument, which Darwinists unwittingly continually use to try to make their case, is actually its own independent discipline of study within Theology itself called Theodicy: Is Your Bod Flawed by God? - Feb. 2010 Excerpt: Theodicy (the discipline in Theism of reconciling natural evil with a good God) might be a problem for 19th-century deism and simplistic natural theology, but not for Biblical theology. It was not a problem for Jesus Christ, who was certainly not oblivious to the blind, the deaf, the lepers and the lame around him. It was not a problem for Paul, who spoke of the whole creation groaning and travailing in pain till the coming redemption of all things (Romans 8). http://www.creationsafaris.com/crev201002.htm#20100214a ,,,Jesus Christ certainly was not oblivious to 'natural evil'; "Revelation Song" by Phillips,Craig and Dean http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYTDI8QOoMYbornagain77
July 3, 2011
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And markf so how is his 'big if' not an attempt to explain the origin of life in materialistic terms???,,,bornagain77
July 3, 2011
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#3 BA77 - if that is all Darwin wrote on the origin of life then I think you have proved Lizzie's point.markf
July 3, 2011
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El: 'Darwin didn’t even attempt to explain The Origin of Life,' ================= "There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved." (Source on page 490 here) http://www.arn.org/blogs/index.php/literature/2009/11/06/the_story_behind_darwin_s_warm_little_po ,,,,,,,,, Sooner or later, students of abiogenesis will encounter Darwin's 1871 letter to Joseph Hooker with his speculations on the spontaneous generation of life. He was returning some pamphlets which triggered the reaction: "I am always delighted to see a word in favour of Pangenesis, which some day, I believe, will have a resurrection." The next paragraph has his "big if" dream: "It is often said that all the conditions for the first production of a living organism are now present, which could ever have been present. But if (and oh what a big if) we could conceive in some warm little pond with all sorts of ammonia and phosphoric salts, - light, heat, electricity &c. present, that a protein compound was chemically formed, ready to undergo still more complex changes, at the present day such matter wd be instantly devoured, or absorbed, which would not have been the case before living creatures were formed."bornagain77
July 3, 2011
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Darwin didn't even attempt to explain The Origin of Life, so to say that "it is statistically impossible that Darwin’s explanation of the origin of life is correct!" makes no sense. Well, except that it's literally true - the chances of a non-explanation being correct is statistically impossible to compute.Elizabeth Liddle
July 3, 2011
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The self-organizing force that really drives evolution was never random chance, but actually is Dark Entropy. Much to Granville Sewell's and Lee Spetner's chagrin, Dark Entropy(TM) (for which I anticipate a highly underserved Nobel) is the heretofore undiscovered force that overcomes both probability and the second law of thermodynamics to increase order in an open system. Dark Entropy is inferred from the myriad examples of self-organization evident in Darwinian processes. Everything makes sense in the light of Dark Entropy.Charles
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