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Darwinist response to Wells’ junk DNA book: PZ Myers threatens to read it

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The Myth of Junk DNAAs David Klinghoffer puts it at ENV:

Over the weekend, Jonathan Wells’s The Myth of Junk DNA broke into the top five on Amazon’s list of books dealing with genetics — a list normally dominated at its pinnacle by various editions of Richard Dawkins’ The Selfish Gene. Not bad, Jonathan.The juxtaposition with Dawkins’ Selfish Gene is appropriate, notwithstanding the demurrals of biochemist Larry Moran et al. Dawkins and other Darwinists, such as Jerry Coyne, have indeed posited that neo-Darwinian theory predicts that swaths of the genome will turn out to be functionless junk. The Junk DNA argument has been a pillar of the Darwin Lobby’s efforts to seduce public opinion and influence public policy. Professor Moran wants to imagine that Dawkins never held that neo-Darwinism predicts junk DNA. But that’s not how other Darwinists see it. (Compare, for example, Dennett’s Darwin’s Dangerous Idea, page 316.)

So far, with none of them having actually read the book (though P.Z. Myers threatens to do so), the Darwin apologists’ response to The Myth of Junk DNA has followed along four lines of defense.

1) The usual insults. In his blog Larry Moran of the Department of Biochemistry at the University of Toronto, a grown man and from the looks of him not a young one either, repetitively derides Jonathan as an “IDiot.” (How embarrassing for this mature gentleman, you might think. Can you imagine Jonathan Wells or anyone else prominent in the ID community replying in kind, designating Professor Moran as “Larry Moron” or similar? The question is self-answering and tells you a lot about how desperation kindles anger among these people.)

– David Klinghoffer, “Junk DNA and the Darwinist Response so Far”ENV May 16, 2011 More.

UD News interview with Wells on his book, here.

Reb Moshe: PZ, What did you just say? You’re “thinking of picking up a copy of his book … well, hadn’t you better?” Or are you just a tourist around here? And haven’t we had this conversation already?

Comments
Hi Ellazimm, Think of life like computer programming. Without any IT background, you can make some (very limited) progress using observation and experimentation alone (science). But if you really want to know what is going on, you need to read the flipping manual (theology)! There are no shortcuts when it comes to the best and important things in life. If you're looking for answers you need to study the Book of Scripture as well as the Book of Nature.Chris Doyle
May 17, 2011
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Lovely discussion all but it's late in England and I can see from the mistakes I made in my last reply that I really do need to call it a night. Thanks again for letting me ask my questions; I hope I haven't offended anyone and that my intentions have not come across as manipulative or disingenuous. Because they're not. Later then.ellazimm
May 17, 2011
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Chris, Why is the question of evil theology when it has real world ramifications and results? If a designer is including suffering and pain then is it not fair to ask if that is part of the design? And is it not fair to ask if there is any evidence for it being part of the plan? And is it not fair to ask, scientifically, if a certain kind of designer would have more explanatory power than another kind? How can logic and the scientific method work and be applicable only up to a certain point? If we have the ability to think critically, ask questions, make inferences and filter results then why draw a line? When do we give up evidence and verification? And why. Who hasn't had a 'spiritual' experience that they didn't first examine with their sharpest critical skills? I know I have. Who hasn't felt the presence of some greater power and not asked: is this real? How do I know? What evidence is there that convinces me I'm not delusional? And who hasn't then had doubts and questions and had to look at it all again? And again? And who hasn't wanted to have as much evidence and reasons as they could muster for their convictions? I do not believe that most of you have blind 'faith'. I think most of you have really thought, long and hard, about your beliefs. I don't think I agree with you but I'd like to understand where you are coming from. And I'd like to argue with you. :-) It's part of the way I learn.ellazimm
May 17, 2011
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BA77: I'm not here to convert or be converted. I'm just here to try and understand what you think. Okay? I think that if the existence of a designer is a scientific question then the designer's methods, motivations and timing are also subject to scientific inquiry. How could it be otherwise? Clearly the designer has chosen or been obligated to intervene at certain moments in certain ways. We don't see design implementation on an obvious and grand scale daily. So is this due to motivation or limitations? Can we find evidence for either of those? How is that not a scientific question? Even if the answer is: we're not sure. Even an all powerful, all knowing designer interacts with the world in ways that can be examine and scrutinised. I would think.ellazimm
May 17, 2011
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I, for one, ellazimm don't have a problem with the problem of evil... but it is strictly a theological matter. We are part of the ultimate scientific experiment and cannot get outside of it to report any scientific findings. Not in this life anyway. It is completely separate to the subject matter of Intelligent Design.Chris Doyle
May 17, 2011
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BA77: I'm not here to find out about the materialist viewpoint. I'm here to find out why you are not discussing the nature, motivation and competence of the designer. I'm here to find out what you think about these issues. Why would I be asking the questions here otherwise? I'm quite sure you have all thought about the issues I'm bringing up. I don't understand the reluctance to discuss them. Especially as, it seems to me, filling in those aspects of the design inference could strengthen you argument. For example: a malevolent designer would explain sub-optimal design and maybe aspects of pain and suffering. So, if you don't think the designer is malevolent then how does a benevolent designer help explain aspects of the designed world? C'mon people! I know you've thought about this. This is your forum! I'm just asking questions. You can shut me up anytime you like. I've got no power or influence here. But, honestly, I'd like to know what you think. I can't rectify some of what I see in the world with the notion of a designer but I bet some of you can. If Intelligent Design Theory is scientific then can withstand follow-on questions.ellazimm
May 17, 2011
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ellazimm, And why is it not a scientific question, that helps explain the reasons behind those things, regarding the motivations and methods of the designer? Who said it's not a scientific question? I said it's not part of ID. If you want to lay out the case that evaluating possible reasons for why the world is the way it is is a scientific question, let's hear why. I'd be interested in hearing it. If a biologist tells me that fish eat plankton, and I ask where the carbon in the plankton came from, he may well tell me 'That's not a question for biology.' It would be a question for, say.. cosmologists or physicists. And if they’re not part of the plan then what power and influence does the designer have or choose to exert? Good questions. Theology and philosophy deal with these. But you seem to be arguing that these questions are part of science. I'd love to hear why.nullasalus
May 17, 2011
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ellazimm so you want to talk 'about' the Designer now??? Does this now mean that you accept that neo-Darwinism is devoid of any rational foundation in science and you want to move on to Theology??? If so great, but if not, what would be the point since you would still hold blind, pitiless, chance of materialism as your ultimate creator and the discussion would not have any real meaning for you??? By the way here is the falsification of reductive materialism (local realism); The Failure Of Local Realism - Materialism - Alain Aspect - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/4744145 The falsification for local realism (materialism) was recently greatly strengthened: Physicists close two loopholes while violating local realism - November 2010 Excerpt: The latest test in quantum mechanics provides even stronger support than before for the view that nature violates local realism and is thus in contradiction with a classical worldview. http://www.physorg.com/news/2010-11-physicists-loopholes-violating-local-realism.html This following study adds to Alain Aspect's work in Quantum Mechanics and solidly refutes the 'hidden variable' argument that has been used by materialists to try to get around the Theistic implications of the instantaneous 'spooky action at a distance' found in quantum mechanics. Quantum Measurements: Common Sense Is Not Enough, Physicists Show - July 2009 Excerpt: scientists have now proven comprehensively in an experiment for the first time that the experimentally observed phenomena cannot be described by non-contextual models with hidden variables. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090722142824.htm (of note: hidden variables were postulated to remove the need for 'spooky' forces, as Einstein termed them — forces that act instantaneously at great distances, thereby breaking the most cherished rule of relativity theory, that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light.)bornagain77
May 17, 2011
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nullasalus: It's not so much a matter of disagreeing with anything . . . I'm just wondering why there is little discussion of what I'm seeing as some of the ramifications of some things being designed. Surely you've thought about it? You're an intelligent person. You've wondered. You've thought. You've asked yourself: if malaria, whooping cough, measles, some cancers, plague, HIV, lupus, hermaphrodism, homosexuality, polio, tooth decay, dementia, arthritis, exzema, alopecia, hay fever, migranes, etc are part of the plan then who is making the plan? And why is it not a scientific question, that helps explain the reasons behind those things, regarding the motivations and methods of the designer? And if they're not part of the plan then what power and influence does the designer have or choose to exert? In a court of law, where facts are at least attempted to be established, it's fair to ask after motive and means. Why is that NOT part of the intelligent design inference? Why is it when a Darwinist says: well, that's not the way an intelligent designer would do things you don't say well it might be because of such and such reasons. And saying that design doesn't have to be optimal continues to bring up the motive and method (and competency) of the designer. Surely. If a sub-optimal design has been implemented and suffering and pain are part of the results and if new and improved designs are implemented in an attempt to rectify some of the problems then surely that is arguing for either a fallible designer OR one that is intentionally making less than perfect designs. For some reason. And explaining those reason makes the design inference stronger and more explanatory.ellazimm
May 17, 2011
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No Mung, scientists do the job they're paid to do and then, if the results conflict with any pre-conceived evolutionist notions they might try and move the goalposts (or leave it to others to worry about because they're sure their beliefs are corroborated by other scientific disciplines). Pointing out that many scientists are evolutionists in this context is like pointing out that many scientists are Democrats, fond of Tom Cruise or tend to be Virgos: in other words, irrelevant. I wonder why you don't see this, Mung.Chris Doyle
May 17, 2011
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Mung: okay, but . . . if Intelligent Design Theory has been established then what? Where does it go from there? What further explanatory power can be generated? What's the point of Intelligent Design Theory if not to explain, more fully, aspects of the material world? It seems to me that questions about the timing, methods and motivations of the designer are supporting rationales for Intelligent Design Theory. I cannot believe that all the people who have spent so much time arguing for the design inference here have not considered the nature of the designer. And if the design inference is a scientific issue then why isn't the nature of the designer? Especially if, as I've heard, the design inference allows for corporeal, physical alien beings to be the designers. Surely it's allowed to ask questions of their motives and methods if only to rule out some possibilities. Yes? If there is a place where Intelligent Designer Theory is discussed then I'd love to know about it.ellazimm
May 17, 2011
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ellazimm, I have never understood the reluctance to question the motivations, methods and timings of the intelligent designer. What reluctance? I said, sure, good question. Behe if I recall correctly says that if, say... malaria shows signs of intelligence design, that's that. We can't just say "that's not designed!" because malaria is harmful. I said such questions are not part of ID. But I agreed they're valid questions. What exactly are you disagreeing with here?nullasalus
May 17, 2011
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ellazimm asks;; 'If the issue of a benevolent vs malevolent designer aren’t addressed here then where are they addressed?' Perhaps 'Origin Of Species' by Charles Darwin since it is far closer to a theological book than a science book!!! Charles Darwin, Theologian: Major New Article on Darwin’s Use of Theology in the Origin of Species http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/05/charles_darwin_theologian_majo046391.html ,,,Turns out that to be a very good neo-Darwinist you absolutely have to be a horrible theologian first and foremost!!! :)bornagain77
May 17, 2011
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ellazimm, you're looking for Intelligent Designer Theory. We're Intelligent Design Theory.Mung
May 17, 2011
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If evolutionists were genuinely interested in scientific knowledge...
Need I point out that it is "evolutionists" who are bringing all this information to light? We're piggybacking on their findings. Let's at least be honest about that.Mung
May 17, 2011
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nullasalus: I have never understood the reluctance to question the motivations, methods and timings of the intelligent designer. What questions can you ask past the existence of an intelligent designer? Does it matter, the nature of the designer? Does the nature of the designer help explain the design choices? A scientific theory must have explanatory power. Would a malevolent designer better explain more issues? If your hypothesis is that some aspects of the natural world are better explained as the result of the intervention of an intelligent designer AND if you think that proposition has been established beyond reasonable doubt (which I think some of you are saying) then what is wrong with pushing the inquiry on to further stages? 'Cause that's what science does . . . isn't it? Ask questions. If the issue of a benevolent vs malevolent designer aren't addressed here then where are they addressed? Outside of theological forums since I hope we're still talking science here.ellazimm
May 17, 2011
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paulmc:
I was responding to your statement that you “have no idea whether there are 1, or 999,999, or 999,999 + 1 ALU repeats“. This certainly has bearing on the validity of Wells’ thesis.
wow. Could you read that any more literally? And then you extrapolate what I said about ALU repeats to the entire genome? Let me assure you that Wells' book is not my first exposure to genetics or the genome or even ALU sequences. Sitting just a few books down on the shelf from the book by Wells is this book Inside the Human Genome: A Case for Non-Intelligent Design. And just a few books down from that book is this one Relics of Eden: The Powerful Evidence of Evolution in Human DNA. And then, Darwinian Detectives: Revealing the Natural History of Genes and Genomes And were you the won who asked BA77 if he'd read this book Evidence and Evolution? Because that one is just a few books further down. Please don't worry about me. When you see me making bad arguments, either logically or on the facts, then perhaps you might be warranted in making some assumption about what I do or do not know. Thanks.Mung
May 17, 2011
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Is that a fair question? If there is a designer is the fact that there is so much death and pain and suffering an indication that the designer is actually evil? Sure. It's just not an ID question.nullasalus
May 17, 2011
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So, I'm wondering . . . if the Alu sequences are purposeful and they've been linked to lots of nasty diseases then . . . is the designer malevolent? Is that a fair question? If there is a designer is the fact that there is so much death and pain and suffering an indication that the designer is actually evil? Just a question. It's fair to ask questions . . . yes?ellazimm
May 17, 2011
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Interesting . . . from Wikipedia: In mammals, almost half the genome (45% to 48%) comprises transposons or remnants of transposons. Around 42% of the human genome is made up of retrotransposons while DNA transposons account for about 2-3%. AND Short interspersed repetitive elements or Short interspersed elements are short DNA sequences (<500 bases) that represent reverse-transcribed RNA molecules originally transcribed by RNA polymerase III into tRNA, rRNA, and other small nuclear RNAs. SINEs do not encode a functional reverse transcriptase protein and rely on other mobile elements for transposition. The most common SINEs in primates are called Alu sequences. Alu elements are 280 base pairs long, do not contain any coding sequences, and can be recognized by the restriction enzyme AluI (hence the name). With about 1,500,000 copies, SINEs make up about 11% of the human genome. While historically viewed as "junk DNA", recent research suggests that in some rare cases both LINEs and SINEs were incorporated into novel genes, so as to evolve new functionality. The distribution of these elements has been implicated in some genetic diseases and cancers. AND Alu insertions are sometimes disruptive and can result in inherited disorders. However, most Alu insertions act as markers that segregate with the disease so the presence of a particular Alu allele does not mean that the carrier will definitely get the disease. The first report of Alu-mediated recombination causing a prevalent inherited predisposition to cancer was a 1995 report about hereditary nonpolyposis colorectal cancer. The following human diseases have been linked with Alu insertions: Breast cancer, Ewing's sarcoma, Familial hypercholesterolemia, Hemophilia, Neurofibromatosis, Diabetes mellitus type II. And the following diseases have been associated with single-nucleotide DNA variations in Alu elements impacting transcription levels: Alzheimer's disease, Lung cancer, Gastric cancer.ellazimm
May 17, 2011
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of note to ALU functionality; On Not Reading Signature in the Cell: A Response to Francisco Ayala (Part 2) - Stephen Meyer Excerpt: Further, the Alu sequences that Ayala specifically cites as prime examples of widely and randomly distributed nonsense sequences in the human genome are NOT non-functional or "nonsense." Short Interspersed Nuclear Element (SINE) sequences of which Alu is one member, perform numerous formatting and regulatory functions in the genomes of all organisms in which they have been found. It is simply factually incorrect for Ayala to claim otherwise. In general, SINEs (and thus Alus) allow genetic information to be retrieved in multiple different ways from the same DNA data files depending on the specific needs of different cell types or tissues (in different species-specific contexts). In particular, Alu sequences perform many taxon-specific lower-level genomic formatting functions such as: (1) providing alternative start sites for promoter modules in gene expression--somewhat like sectoring on a hard drive (Faulkner et al., 2009; Faulkner and Carninci, 2009); (2) suppressing or "silencing" RNA transcription (Trujillo et al., 2006); (3) dynamically partitioning one gene file from another on the chromosome (Lunyak et al., 2007); (4) providing DNA nodes for signal transduction pathways or binding sites for hormone receptors (Jacobsen et al., 2009; Laperriere et al., 2004); (5) encoding RNAs that modulate transcription (Allen et al., 2004; Espinoza et al., 2004; Walters et al., 2009); and (6) encoding or regulating microRNAs (Gu et al., 2009; Lehnert et al., 2009). In addition to these lower-level genomic formatting functions, SINEs (including Alus) also perform species-specific higher-level genomic formatting functions such as: (1) modulating the chromatin of classes of GC-rich housekeeping and signal transduction genes (Grover et al., 2003, 2004; Oei et al., 2004; see also Eller et al., 2007); (2) "bar coding" particular segments for chromatin looping between promoter and enhancer elements (Ford and Thanos, 2010); (3) augmenting recombination in sequences where Alus occur (Witherspoon et al., 2009); and (4) assisting in the formation of three-dimensional chromosome territories or "compartments" in the nucleus (Kaplan et al., 1993; see also Pai and Engelke, 2010). Moreover, Alu sequences also specify many species-specific RNA codes. In particular, they provide: (1) signals for alternative RNA splicing (i.e., they generate multiple messenger RNAs from the same type of precursor transcript) (Gal-Mark et al., 2008; Lei and Vorechovsky, 2005; Lev-Maor et al., 2008) and (2) alternative open-reading frames (exons) (Lev-Maor et al., 2007; Lin et al., 2008; Schwartz et al., 2009). Alu sequences also (3) specify the retention of select RNAs in the nucleus to silence expression (Chen et al., 2008; Walters et al., 2009); (4) regulate the RNA polymerase II machinery during transcription (Mariner et al., 2008; Yakovchuk et al., 2009; Walters et al., 2009); and (5) provide sites for Adenine-to-Inosine RNA editing, a function that is essential for both human development and species-specific brain development (Walters et al., 2009). Contrary to Ayala's claim, Alu sequences (and other mammalian SINEs) are not distributed randomly but instead manifest a similar "bar-code" distribution pattern along their chromosomes (Chen and Manuelidis, 1989; Gibbs et al., 2004; Korenberg and Rykowski, 1988). Rather like the distribution of the backslashes, semi-colons and spaces involved in the formatting of software code, the "bar-code" distribution of Alu sequences (and other SINEs) reflects a clear functional logic, not sloppy editing or random mutational insertions. For example, Alu sequences are preferentially located in and around protein-coding genes as befits their role in regulating gene expression (Tsirigos and Rigoutsos, 2009). They occur mainly in promoter regions--the start sites for RNA production--and in introns, the segments that break up the protein-coding stretches. Outside of these areas, the numbers of Alu sequences sharply decline. Further, we now know that Alu sequences are directed to (or spliced into) certain preferential hotspots in the genome by the protein complexes or the "integrative machinery" of the cell's information processing system (Levy et al., 2010). This directed distribution of Alu sequences enhances the semantic and syntactical organization of human DNA. It appears to have little to do with the occurrence of random insertional mutations, contrary to the implication of Ayala's "sloppy editor" illustration and argument. Critics repeatedly claim that the theory of intelligent design is based on religion, not science. But in his response to my book, it is Ayala who relies on a theological argument and who repeatedly misrepresents the scientific literature in a vain attempt to support it. The human genome manifests nonsense sequences and sloppy editing ill-befitting of a deity or any truly intelligent designer, he argues. He also sees other aspects of the natural world that he thinks are inconsistent with the existence of a Deity. I'll leave it to theologians to grapple with Ayala's arguments about whether backaches in old age and other forms of generalized human suffering make the existence of God logically untenable. But on the specific scientific question of the organization of the human genome, I think the evidence is clear. It is Ayala who has been sloppy, and not only in his assessment of the human genome, but also, I must add, in his critique of my book. http://www.stephencmeyer.org/news/2010/03/_this_is_part_2.html But paulmc, the amazing thing is that you will ignore all this and move on to some piece of neo-Darwinian tripe, merely to try to protect your atheistic religious belief! Why is this paulmc??? Why is it so important for you to deny God??? and Although you do you best to ignore the overwhelming evidence for God in this life, Do you think you will be able to hide from God when you die??? If so you are in for a VERY BIG surprise!!! It is also very interesting to point out that the 'light at the end of the tunnel', reported in many Near Death Experiences(NDEs), is also corroborated by Special Relativity when considering the optical effects for traveling at the speed of light. Please compare the similarity of the optical effect, noted at the 3:22 minute mark of the following video, when the 3-Dimensional world 'folds and collapses' into a tunnel shape around the direction of travel as an observer moves towards the 'higher dimension' of the speed of light, with the 'light at the end of the tunnel' reported in very many Near Death Experiences: Traveling At The Speed Of Light - Optical Effects - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5733303/ The NDE and the Tunnel - Kevin Williams' research conclusions Excerpt: I started to move toward the light. The way I moved, the physics, was completely different than it is here on Earth. It was something I had never felt before and never felt since. It was a whole different sensation of motion. I obviously wasn't walking or skipping or crawling. I was not floating. I was flowing. I was flowing toward the light. I was accelerating and I knew I was accelerating, but then again, I didn't really feel the acceleration. I just knew I was accelerating toward the light. Again, the physics was different - the physics of motion of time, space, travel. It was completely different in that tunnel, than it is here on Earth. I came out into the light and when I came out into the light, I realized that I was in heaven.(Barbara Springer) Near Death Experience – The Tunnel, The Light, The Life Review – view http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4200200/bornagain77
May 17, 2011
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I'm with bornagain77! Evolutionists once again find themselves on a sinking island over junk DNA. Having previously enjoyed a vast landmass of ignorance, each passing month, the water level of knowledge is swallowing up the land and it’s starting to get very damp on the ground. BA77 is absolutely right to point out the similarity between evolutionists’ failed predictions about vestigial organs and evolutionists’ failed predictions about junk DNA. How many decades have those unscientific attitudes put us back? It is a wonderful thing that, amongst the many useful functions that an appendix provides, one of them is to provide a safe haven for ‘good’ bacteria in our body. But, thanks to the flawed evolutionary mindset, many still consider the appendix to be a useless piece of junk. When we discovered that human genes comprise only 2% of human DNA, evolutionists told us, with ‘scientific certainty’ that the remaining 98% of our DNA is just junk. This is exactly what the theory of evolution predicted, they told us. But then, we started to discover function in portions of that so-called junk. So, we were told that over 90% of our DNA is just junk. And that figure has been diminishing ever since as the waters of knowledge come flooding in. Now it’s, “Look, there is still a lot of junk in our DNA. Believe me, there is a (neo-darwinistic) scientific consensus here!”. BA77 is absolutely right to point out that this claim is absolutely ridiculous. Evolutionists were wrong about vestigial organs. They were wrong about 98% of our DNA being junk. And though that figure is diminishing as we learn more and more about the cell (we’re still just scratching the surface), evolutionists are still claiming that there is junk in our DNA. It’s just like a kid opening up some sort of electronic toy, putting it back together again but having screws and other components left over and then throwing them away because they’re “just junk”. If evolutionists were genuinely interested in scientific knowledge (rather than being, in truth, mere atheists with scientific pretensions) then they would withhold any further judgement on so-called junk DNA until at least another decade of well-funded and well-organised research had taken place. But they don’t. They must cling on to junk DNA because 21st century science has already destroyed the rest of their evidence for evolution. And there’s no sign of that rescue helicopter yet so I hope they can swim!Chris Doyle
May 17, 2011
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ellazimm states: 'BA77 – also, looking at the evidence means ALL the evidence, paulmc’s included. He was just trying to make sure you had seen some of the evidence.' Now let's get this straight, neither paulmc, Moran, nor anyone else, has a firm clue as to complete functionality of DNA, and even though, from what little researchers have thus far gathered, we know that the programming of DNA is orders of magnitude greater than anything man has ever devised, we are to assume that most ALU repeats are junk because??? because??? well because by-golly atheists insist that if we don't completely understand the function of a DNA sequence then it must be junk!!! Why do atheists insist that we do this unwarranted step??? Well because by-golly it is mandated by their number one piece of evidence for evolution,,, it is motivated by their a-priori philosophical/theological commitment that 'God would not have done it that way', and not by any reasoned look at ALL the evidence coming out of DNA research on their part,,, Charles Darwin, Theologian: Major New Article on Darwin's Use of Theology in the Origin of Species http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/05/charles_darwin_theologian_majo046391.html notes: ,, Despite the fact the neo-Darwinists have not even generated a single novel functional protein or gene, much less any sophisticated functional information, by evolutionary processes we find stuff like this in the cell,,, 10 Ways Darwin Got It Wrong Excerpt: As molecular biologist Jonathan Wells and mathematician William Dembski point out: “It’s true that eukaryotic cells are the most complicated cells we know. But the simplest life forms we know, the prokaryotic cells (such as bacteria, which lack a nucleus), are themselves immensely complex.,,, There is no evidence whatsoever of earlier, more primitive life forms from which prokaryotes might have evolved” (How to Be an Intellectually Fulfilled Atheist (or Not), 2008, p. 4). These authors then mention what these two types of cells share in terms of complexity: • Information processing, storage and retrieval. • Artificial languages and their decoding systems. • Error detection, correction and proofreading devices for quality control. • Digital data-embedding technology. • Transportation and distribution systems. • Automated parcel addressing (similar to zip codes and UPS labels). • Assembly processes employing pre-fabrication and modular construction. • Self-reproducing robotic manufacturing plants. So it turns out that cells are far more complex and sophisticated than Darwin could have conceived of. How did mere chance produce this, when even human planning and engineering cannot? http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn85/10-ways-darwin-wrong.htm Comprehensive Mapping of Long-Range Interactions Reveals Folding Principles of the Human Genome - Oct. 2009 Excerpt: At the megabase scale, the chromatin conformation is consistent with a fractal globule, a knot-free, polymer conformation that enables maximally dense packing while preserving the ability to easily fold and unfold any genomic locus. http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/326/5950/289 3-D Structure Of Human Genome: Fractal Globule Architecture Packs Two Meters Of DNA Into Each Cell - Oct. 2009 Excerpt: the information density in the nucleus is trillions of times higher than on a computer chip -- while avoiding the knots and tangles that might interfere with the cell's ability to read its own genome. Moreover, the DNA can easily unfold and refold during gene activation, gene repression, and cell replication. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091008142957.htm Scientists' 3-D View of Genes-at-Work Is Paradigm Shift in Genetics - Dec. 2009 Excerpt: Highly coordinated chromosomal choreography leads genes and the sequences controlling them, which are often positioned huge distances apart on chromosomes, to these 'hot spots'. Once close together within the same transcription factory, genes get switched on (a process called transcription) at an appropriate level at the right time in a specific cell type. This is the first demonstration that genes encoding proteins with related physiological role visit the same factory. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/12/091215160649.htm And if ALU sequences truly served no function, why in blue blazes does the cell take so much care to repair it from alteration/mutation: Quantum Dots Spotlight DNA-Repair Proteins in Motion - March 2010 Excerpt: "How this system works is an important unanswered question in this field," he said. "It has to be able to identify very small mistakes in a 3-dimensional morass of gene strands. It's akin to spotting potholes on every street all over the country and getting them fixed before the next rush hour." Dr. Bennett Van Houten - of note: A bacterium has about 40 team members on its pothole crew. That allows its entire genome to be scanned for errors in 20 minutes, the typical doubling time.,, These smart machines can apparently also interact with other damage control teams if they cannot fix the problem on the spot. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100311123522.htm The Evolutionary Dynamics of Digital and Nucleotide Codes: A Mutation Protection Perspective - February 2011 Excerpt: "Unbounded random change of nucleotide codes through the accumulation of irreparable, advantageous, code-expanding, inheritable mutations at the level of individual nucleotides, as proposed by evolutionary theory, requires the mutation protection at the level of the individual nucleotides and at the higher levels of the code to be switched off or at least to dysfunction. Dysfunctioning mutation protection, however, is the origin of cancer and hereditary diseases, which reduce the capacity to live and to reproduce. Our mutation protection perspective of the evolutionary dynamics of digital and nucleotide codes thus reveals the presence of a paradox in evolutionary theory between the necessity and the disadvantage of dysfunctioning mutation protection. This mutation protection paradox, which is closely related with the paradox between evolvability and mutational robustness, needs further investigation." http://www.arn.org/blogs/index.php/literature/2011/04/26/dna_repair_mechanisms_reveal_a_contradic The Darwinism contradiction of repair systems Excerpt: The bottom line is that repair mechanisms are incompatible with Darwinism in principle. Since sophisticated repair mechanisms do exist in the cell after all, then the thing to discard in the dilemma to avoid the contradiction necessarily is the Darwinist dogma. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-darwinism-contradiction-of-repair-systems/ ============ On Not Reading Signature in the Cell: A Response to Francisco Ayala Excerpt: This directed distribution of Alu (junk) sequences enhances the semantic and syntactical organization of human DNA. (page down for 33 references of ALU functionality) http://www.stephencmeyer.org/news/2010/03/_this_is_part_2.htmlbornagain77
May 17, 2011
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Mung:
And I would recommend not making unwarranted assumptions.
I was responding to your statement that you "have no idea whether there are 1, or 999,999, or 999,999 + 1 ALU repeats". This certainly has bearing on the validity of Wells' thesis.paulmc
May 17, 2011
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BA77 - also, looking at the evidence means ALL the evidence, paulmc's included. He was just trying to make sure you had seen some of the evidence.ellazimm
May 17, 2011
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If I could say one thing, I really would recommend learning more about the genome before reading Wells’ book. It would surely give some valuable context to his writing.
And I would recommend not making unwarranted assumptions.Mung
May 17, 2011
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BA77 - even if paulmc is biased I don't see why that stops you from answering the question. Science is about asking questions. Maybe some of them make no sense but . . . . shouldn't we always try to test the boundaries of knowledge? I would also like to ponder the use of DNA testing for 'relatedness'. In my understanding some bits of repeated genome are compared and if two individuals have the same number of repeats then they are most likely related. Which brings up the question: what possible function could the repeated sections have if different people have different number of repeats? I'm not trying to get at someone but you have to admit it's an interesting question no matter what your assumptions.ellazimm
May 17, 2011
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Mung - yes I'm aware that was lighthearted :) If I could say one thing, I really would recommend learning more about the genome before reading Wells' book. It would surely give some valuable context to his writing.paulmc
May 16, 2011
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paulmc, I hope you understand that what I wrote was humor. I'm not like BA77 and I don't think he's doing ID any favors. I have no idea whether there are 1, or 999,999, or 999,999 + 1 ALU repeats and I don't intend to research the matter. I have other things I'm interested in right now that are taking up my attention. To answer your question, I could not possibly tell you how many are necessary or indeed if any at all are necessary. However, I do happen to be reading Wells' book (among others). But right now I am at work and it is at home, so I can't just now respond to you concerning what he may say specifically in the book about what he means in using the term "Myth" in the title.Mung
May 16, 2011
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Mung - lovely parable. But where is the evidence for the claim that vast numbers of Alu repeats are 'necessary'? Considering, in particular, that they are retrotransposons. Perhaps we have the reverse of your parable. 1 sheep remains and 99 sheep ran into the wilderness...paulmc
May 16, 2011
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