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Do we imagine we see patterns in nature where there are none?

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That is called cherrypicking patterns. A common argument against design in nature is that humans randomly evolved to see patterns where there are none. Many a Darwinian airhead advances such received wisdom at the usual bongfests.

He can be fairly sure that few bong-ees are going to point out the obvious: We evolved to see patterns that are there, for our own best interests. We are sometimes mistaken, but disparaging the seeking of patterns supported by evidence is hardly a solution.

Most often the patterns we see are there. Indeed, more people come to grief by not noticing than by noticing them. (“But I thought this would be an exception, you see…” or “But I never thought it would happen to me… ”)

Darwin’s followers themselves are constantly attempting to impose patterns in the fossil record, and watching them disintegrate in the light of evidence.

Casey Luskin notes that:

cladistics and other phylogenetics methods do not demonstrate common ancestry; they assume it. In other words, these methods don’t test whether all organisms fit into a nested hierarchy (i.e., phylogenetic tree). Rather, evolutionary systematics assumes that common ancestry is true and therefore all organisms belong within a nested hierarchy, and then it uses methods to force-fit any organism into the tree, even if that organisms has traits that don’t fit neatly within the tree.

Common ancestry, therefore, is a starting assumption about the data — not a conclusion from it. Another key lesson is this: just because you see evolutionary biologists creating an impressive-looking phylogenetic tree doesn’t mean that all of the organisms or their traits shown within that tree fit neatly into a nested hierarchy (i.e., a tree structure). One could cite many examples of organisms that don’t fit cleanly into a tree. Here are a few:

Sahelanthropus tchadensis is widely touted as a human ancestor that lived about 6-7 million years ago, sometime very soon after the supposed split between the human line and the chimp line. But it’s rarely mentioned that this specimen doesn’t fit into the standard hominin tree at all.

In any case, an evolutionary biologist could decide to group phyla according to early developmental processes, or according to symmetry, and that’s fine. If you weight one trait heavily, you’ll get one tree. But switch that weight to another trait and you’ll get another, conflicting tree. Either way, when you use one character set to create your tree, then the other character set is no longer distributed in a treelike fashion, and vice versa. That’s a major problem. More.

But they can get away with scuffing out serious discussion of genuine problems, questions, and puzzles to the extent that everyone “knows” that Darwinism is true. (“The debate is OVER, etc.”)

One of the serious harms done by court and other judgments demanding the teaching of “evolution” (that is, Darwinism) in the schools is that it helps raise generations not accustomed to asking intelligent questions when the data don’t fit. From Head Teacher Troll:

When the pattern doesn’t work, there is no pattern anyway, you see. Only ID people look for patterns… But now, if we can just tweak this, and then that, we could get our pattern to fit… You! You there! I can tell that you are thinking Wrong Thoughts! Stop thinking now!

Don’t believe me? See the Darwin in the schools lobby hard at work.

Rob Sheldon writes to say, re the claim about detecting patterns that aren’t there:

If all that is meant by this statement, is that people have an unusual gift to see teleology when mathematical algorithms cannot, then this is a truism that a man can be proud of.

But if this is a statement that only mathematical algorithms are justified in finding patterns, then I would have disagree, and ask if a computer made that judgment as well?

Or if this is a statement that you can fool people by claiming to find patterns that aren’t there, then I would say you are a naive Wall Street investor who has learned his first lesson.

The apparent pattern in the clouds may not be there; the apparent pattern in biotechnology stocks may be there after all.

ID is concerned not with finding patterns, which obviously exist in the mathematics of nature, (consider fractals or the golden ratio). Rather, ID studies patterns that look like they were generated by intelligence. A mere pattern endlessly repeats. A thought-out pattern stops at a point where purpose is detectible.  See the CSI
formulation of ID
.

This may be as good a place as any to note that I (O’Leary for News) will shortly be starting a series, “Talk to the Fossils,” at Evolution News & Views that talks about what we really know about situations where evolution does occur. What patterns do we really see?

Follow UD News at Twitter!

Comments
Are you seriously saying only non-materialists have a basis to call people people? I've read some bizarre claims here, but that would be pretty close to the top!wd400
June 25, 2015
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WD400: I’m a person (...)
Thank you. I'm sorry to have bothered you—I mistook you for a materialist.Box
June 25, 2015
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I've no idea what you are going on about now Box. I'm a person, fwiw, and not sure that particles can be irrational.wd400
June 25, 2015
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WD400: (...) my (assumed) religious beliefs (...)
I am curious. Which is it? Are you a person or a happenstantial collection of irrational particles in motion?Box
June 25, 2015
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Sorry wd400 - I assumed as Zachriel always uses the term "we" in his responses and how you constantly agree and defend him that you must also accept this distinction. Just trying to use your terms!Dr JDD
June 24, 2015
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"making a really awful argument" says the reigning king of 'making a really awful argument' and never, ever, admitting it.bornagain77
June 24, 2015
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Not particularly offended, and don't see how my (assumed) religious beliefs contribute to my ability to be offended. The comment just demonstrates who shallow all this "truth seekers" business is with JDD. (btw, you could go some way to distinguish yourself from this sort of team-ism by admitting your man Easterbrook was making a really awful argument here)wd400
June 24, 2015
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Well, what do you know! A happenstance amalgamation of blind particles in motion feels offended by "you lot"!Box
June 24, 2015
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wd400: “you lot”? erm, you people?Mung
June 24, 2015
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wd400: Mung, you seem to be missing the context. That is entirely possible!Mung
June 24, 2015
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"you lot"? You really sound like someone out to seek the truth...wd400
June 24, 2015
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Dr JDD - the last link in your #76 isn't working. Thanks.Silver Asiatic
June 24, 2015
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Although the apparent 2-billion-year-long stasis of such sulfur-cycling ecosystems is consistent with the null hypothesis required of Darwinian evolution—if there is no change in the physical-biological environment of a well-adapted ecosystem, its biotic components should similarly remain unchanged—additional evidence will be needed to establish this aspect of evolutionary theory.
It will be interesting to see the evidence that shows there was no change in the physical-biological environment for 2 billion years. But of course, failing that ...
Dr JDD: Which has evolutionists now claiming you can’t go 2bn yrs without evolution so it must be convergent evolution.
I think wd400 has a nice term for that ... "ad hoc kludge".Silver Asiatic
June 24, 2015
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I quote a >15yr old paper and get scorned whilst you lot quote a >150yr old statement about how "convergence is expected". Irony? Yes, let's ignore some evidence because it is a bit older so I don't trust it. Look there are plenty of staggering examples of convergent evolution that are more recent. I didn't post those for blind people like yourself wd400 but for those seeking truth. If you want something very recent how about this finding: http://m.pnas.org/content/112/7/2087.abstract Which has evolutionists now claiming you can't go 2bn yrs without evolution so it must be convergent evolution. On those seeking truth, the irony is certainly not lost.Dr JDD
June 24, 2015
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Mung, you seem to be missing the context. Some folks make a big about the fact some genes, like prestin, give a tree that groups bats and dolphins. They further claim the evolutionary explanation for this, that these apparent relationship is the result of convergent evolution, is an ad hoc kludge to save common descent as an idea. In fact, if we look at the synonymous sites, which are not subject the positive selective pressure underlying the convergence, we get the same tree we get from normal sequences. Thus the same evolutionary history is contained even in these convergent protein's DNA sequences. It can't simply be that the assumptions and techniques applied, because those same assumptions are techniques are applied to the convergent trees too!wd400
June 24, 2015
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wd400: Why does the tree estimated from synonymous mutations match the standard phylogeny? Mung: Because they both use the same assumptions and the same techniques? Zachriel:
The observed patterns exist regardless of any theoretical explanation. In the case of prestin, the gene is very similar across mammals, but, nonetheless, is consistent with the standard phylogeny — except for whales and bats. If we look only at synonymous substitutions, then whales and bats also fit the standard phylogeny. Furthermore, the rate of change of synonymous substitutions fits the expected rate of divergence. The validity of an explanation is judged by its ability to explain the observed patterns, and by its ability to predict new observations. Wd400 asked above “Why does the tree estimated from synonymous mutations match the standard phylogeny?” Evolution provides a testable hypothesis.
The question was why these two specific patterns "match" each other. I offered a possible answer as to why these two specific patterns "match" each other. Are you saying my answer is bogus? That the methods used by the pattern creators don't use the same common assumptions and methods?Mung
June 24, 2015
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JDD, The mounting of the high horse was all this "I was giving you a chance to.not look foolish..." stuff when it was readily apparent that the point you were making was irrelevant to Zach's comment. You continue to make new versions of this point but they have yet to gain relevance. The "rant" is your tendency to go off on these evidence-free soliloquies throwing around words like materialism, presuming people who disagree with you do so in bad faith an erecting straw man opponents for you to beat. You latest one was about molecular convergences so I went back to one calculation on the probability of these. I don't know which examples you have in mind that have intermediate states , let alone deleterious ones, I was speaking specifically about the ones people here talk about. When you actually provide some examples of this apparently overwhelming deluge of molecular convergences we get two >15 year old papers and a dead link.wd400
June 24, 2015
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Silver Asiatic: 1. What is the sky? So your argument is that you don't know what the sky is.Zachriel
June 24, 2015
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Indeed Virgil, indeed. One of the reasons I left academia for industry - no one gives 2 hoots about towing the line but rather are we going to cure people of disease with our drugs. Anyhoo, if interested here are the types of convergent evolution that defy belief: http://www.pnas.org/content/94/22/11992.full.pdf http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11070061 http://www.botany.ubc.ca/keeling/PDF/09ConvergPNAS.pdfDr JDD
June 24, 2015
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Dr JDD- Every time you question a liberal you are ranting. Every time you don't just accept the party-line, even though it ain't your party, you are ranting. Good scientists are not welcome in liberal circles, unless you are a good scientist and tow the party line. :cool:Virgil Cain
June 24, 2015
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Now I am accused of ranting and on my high horse but I am merely trying to be a good scientist and assessing the information we have rather than have a blinkered view. Indeed, have a look here if you wish to downplay the potential lack of true redundancy of apparent synonymous substitutions: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867414001457 “Synonymous or “silent” positions in a gene’s sequence can be used to encode additional information that affects properties such as the speed or accuracy with which an mRNA is translated (Drummond and Wilke, 2008), how an mRNA is folded (Goodman et al., 2013) or spliced (Parmley et al., 2006), or, through translational pausing, how a protein folds (Zhang et al., 2009 and Zhou et al., 2013). These and other mechanisms mean that changes in a gene’s sequence that are silent with respect to protein sequence are not always silent with respect to function (Gingold and Pilpel, 2011). Indeed, there is growing evidence that natural selection acts widely on synonymous sites (Drummond and Wilke, 2008 and Supek et al., 2010).” Referring to the last point – why does “natural selection act widely on synonymous sites”? The papers imply importance in which optimised codons are used and that in fact, being truly a “silent” synonymous mutation is perhaps a misnomer. And of course, the observations that oncogenes contain an excess of synonymous mutations in tumours is telling about the impact of such mutations. This should not be underestimated and we would do well to remind ourselves how we are constantly told the impact of synonymous mutations is truly redundant and silent. So before we hear that these events are rare, let us take a moment to reflect on one paper’s estimations: http://genome.cshlp.org/content/13/5/831.abstract?ijkey=be6b3840913b74f8995af296f39fa4a5fe13f02a&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha “The comparison to intergenic DNA sequences indicates that about 39% of silent sites in protein-coding regions are deleterious and subject to negative selection.” So “silent sites” are not that silent after all. Which is my original point – perhaps there is variable function in apparent “synonymous” mutations. Further reading of interest, around degeneracy lifting: http://labs.mcb.harvard.edu/Cluzel/documents/Subramaniam%20et%20al.,%20PNAS.pdf Secondly, with regards to the likelihood of convergence wd400 your specific example is of one aa which is hardly outside the scope of natural processes easily achieving independently. However, when we see multiple amino acid changes that are the same in distant species you have to question the probability especially when you have no evidence that the intermediate mutations are neutral or rather non-deleterious.Dr JDD
June 24, 2015
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You referenced another thread where you claimed to answer the question:
What was the probability that bats and whales would both develop echolocation from a common selection for amino-acid-altering mutations?
Yes, did you notice the first sentence of the reply?wd400
June 24, 2015
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wd400
All this calculation is trying to do is get an idea of how likely [the same substitutions in similar lineages] are.
You referenced another thread where you claimed to answer the question:
What was the probability that bats and whales would both develop echolocation from a common selection for amino-acid-altering mutations?
Of course, it depends on where you start with the non-ecolocating organism but it should be far enough back that some probabilities on the emergence of magnetoception or light-sensing location functions (and other hypothetical, non-existent means of sensing direction) could be calculated also -- as well as the probability that bats would have evolved mammalian eyes.Silver Asiatic
June 24, 2015
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I don’t think that evidence showing that the same substitutions may appear in different lineages does much to explain the origin of similar complex features arising independently. You should try reading threads before you comment in them. People here have tried to make a big deal of molecular convergence (the same substitutions appearing in different lineages), going go far as to say anyone who thinks such convergences are possible are lying to themselves (!). All this calculation is trying to do is get an idea of how likely such convergences are. If you have question about the calculation now that you understand what is actually being calculated let me know.wd400
June 24, 2015
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Zach
Observing the sky from your hometown, do the planets move against the background of the stars?
You may not recognize the assumptions embedded in your question. 1. What is the sky? Why does it need to be what you say it is? Where in nature do we see something that calls itself 'sky'? 2. What is the difference between planets and stars? I could observe every thing as different and distinct with no reason to classify them together in groups. Or I could make them into several groups and deny the two you offered. There is nothing in the sky saying one must be called a planet and the other a star.
Judging by overall character traits, which organism doesn’t belong {cat, trout, bear}?
Of course, it depends on what a 'character trait' is and what it means - and why one would use those to judge the difference between those organisms (or if they're even all organisms). All have eyes, for example. But all have different eyes. So, I call one 'bear eyes' the other 'trout eyes' and finally 'cat eyes'. So, they're not classified by eyes. They're not similar on my own assumptions and standards. The point here is that 'pattern' or 'similarity' only exists when one accepts the assumptions, which are not observable. It's an immaterial, organizational structure which does not exist in nature - like any abstract human mental construct. Like language. We call something language because we create assumptions and rules and add intelligence to the process. Language does not have an empirical existence.Silver Asiatic
June 24, 2015
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BTW Zachriel, we are still waiting for you to reference the theory of evolution. If you can't then please stop talking about it as if one actually exists.Virgil Cain
June 24, 2015
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Zachriel:
Evolution provides a testable hypothesis.
No, it doesn't as evolution cannot account for mammals. As for prestin, well unguided evolution doesn't have an explanation for it, either.
udging by overall character traits, which organism doesn’t belong {cat, trout, bear}?
All three have many traits in common, by design. However cats and bears share more traits as they have a closer common design.Virgil Cain
June 24, 2015
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Silver Asiatic: It’s debatable that ‘patterns exist’ independent of an explanation. Observing the sky from your hometown, do the planets move against the background of the stars? Judging by overall character traits, which organism doesn't belong {cat, trout, bear}?Zachriel
June 24, 2015
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Zach
The observed patterns exist regardless of any theoretical explanation.
It's debatable that 'patterns exist' independent of an explanation. The question of whether there is a pattern or not is based on interpretations of the data. Common interpretations are the result of common assumptions.Silver Asiatic
June 24, 2015
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Mung: Because they both use the same assumptions and the same techniques? The observed patterns exist regardless of any theoretical explanation. In the case of prestin, the gene is very similar across mammals, but, nonetheless, is consistent with the standard phylogeny — except for whales and bats. If we look only at synonymous substitutions, then whales and bats also fit the standard phylogeny. Furthermore, the rate of change of synonymous substitutions fits the expected rate of divergence. The validity of an explanation is judged by its ability to explain the observed patterns, and by its ability to predict new observations. Wd400 asked above "Why does the tree estimated from synonymous mutations match the standard phylogeny?" Evolution provides a testable hypothesis. Silver Asiatic: And what, precisely are the required changes in the gene to move from non-echolocating to the echolocation function? If the changes in prestin were due to selection, then we would expect that the rate of change would exceed the expected rate of drift. We can test this by comparing synonymous and non-synonymous substitutions.
Liu et al., Convergent sequence evolution between echolocating bats and dolphins, Cell 2010: "the {ratio of non-synonymous to synonymous rates} for sites showing a shift in functional constraint in the echolocating whales correlated significantly with support for convergence"
If the changes were due to incremental evolution, then we would expect intermediate forms. We might investigate other mammals that have higher frequency, but not supersonic, hearing.
Rossiter et al., Prestin and high frequency hearing in mammals, Communicative & Integrative Biology 2011: "Combining data from non-echolocating mammals to the results of our earlier studies of bats and dolphins adds some support to the idea that the tempo of change in Prestin correlates positively with the evolution of ultrasonic hearing in mammals"
But how? They suggest a testable hypothesis.
Rossiter et al., Prestin and high frequency hearing in mammals, Communicative & Integrative Biology 2011: "Yet the mechanism by which observed amino acid replacements in prestin might promote auditory sensitivity to high frequencies in echolocating and other taxa is not known. One possibility is that they result in conformational changes of the prestin protein, which in turn alter the shape and stiffness of the OHCs thereby allowing them to vibrate faster."
This suggestion is consistent with more recent studies of prestin structure.
Gorbunov et al., Molecular architecture and the structural basis for anion interaction in prestin and SLC26 transporters, Nature 2014: "Biophysically, prestin most likely acts as an area motor by alternating between two structural conformations that occupy different cross-sectional areas within the membrane"
Zachriel
June 24, 2015
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