Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Do we imagine we see patterns in nature where there are none?

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That is called cherrypicking patterns. A common argument against design in nature is that humans randomly evolved to see patterns where there are none. Many a Darwinian airhead advances such received wisdom at the usual bongfests.

He can be fairly sure that few bong-ees are going to point out the obvious: We evolved to see patterns that are there, for our own best interests. We are sometimes mistaken, but disparaging the seeking of patterns supported by evidence is hardly a solution.

Most often the patterns we see are there. Indeed, more people come to grief by not noticing than by noticing them. (“But I thought this would be an exception, you see…” or “But I never thought it would happen to me… ”)

Darwin’s followers themselves are constantly attempting to impose patterns in the fossil record, and watching them disintegrate in the light of evidence.

Casey Luskin notes that:

cladistics and other phylogenetics methods do not demonstrate common ancestry; they assume it. In other words, these methods don’t test whether all organisms fit into a nested hierarchy (i.e., phylogenetic tree). Rather, evolutionary systematics assumes that common ancestry is true and therefore all organisms belong within a nested hierarchy, and then it uses methods to force-fit any organism into the tree, even if that organisms has traits that don’t fit neatly within the tree.

…

Common ancestry, therefore, is a starting assumption about the data — not a conclusion from it. Another key lesson is this: just because you see evolutionary biologists creating an impressive-looking phylogenetic tree doesn’t mean that all of the organisms or their traits shown within that tree fit neatly into a nested hierarchy (i.e., a tree structure). One could cite many examples of organisms that don’t fit cleanly into a tree. Here are a few:

Sahelanthropus tchadensis is widely touted as a human ancestor that lived about 6-7 million years ago, sometime very soon after the supposed split between the human line and the chimp line. But it’s rarely mentioned that this specimen doesn’t fit into the standard hominin tree at all.

…

In any case, an evolutionary biologist could decide to group phyla according to early developmental processes, or according to symmetry, and that’s fine. If you weight one trait heavily, you’ll get one tree. But switch that weight to another trait and you’ll get another, conflicting tree. Either way, when you use one character set to create your tree, then the other character set is no longer distributed in a treelike fashion, and vice versa. That’s a major problem. More.

But they can get away with scuffing out serious discussion of genuine problems, questions, and puzzles to the extent that everyone “knows” that Darwinism is true. (“The debate is OVER, etc.”)

One of the serious harms done by court and other judgments demanding the teaching of “evolution” (that is, Darwinism) in the schools is that it helps raise generations not accustomed to asking intelligent questions when the data don’t fit. From Head Teacher Troll:

When the pattern doesn’t work, there is no pattern anyway, you see. Only ID people look for patterns… But now, if we can just tweak this, and then that, we could get our pattern to fit… You! You there! I can tell that you are thinking Wrong Thoughts! Stop thinking now!

Don’t believe me? See the Darwin in the schools lobby hard at work.

Rob Sheldon writes to say, re the claim about detecting patterns that aren’t there:

If all that is meant by this statement, is that people have an unusual gift to see teleology when mathematical algorithms cannot, then this is a truism that a man can be proud of.

But if this is a statement that only mathematical algorithms are justified in finding patterns, then I would have disagree, and ask if a computer made that judgment as well?

Or if this is a statement that you can fool people by claiming to find patterns that aren’t there, then I would say you are a naive Wall Street investor who has learned his first lesson.

The apparent pattern in the clouds may not be there; the apparent pattern in biotechnology stocks may be there after all.

ID is concerned not with finding patterns, which obviously exist in the mathematics of nature, (consider fractals or the golden ratio). Rather, ID studies patterns that look like they were generated by intelligence. A mere pattern endlessly repeats. A thought-out pattern stops at a point where purpose is detectible.  See the CSI
formulation of ID
.

This may be as good a place as any to note that I (O’Leary for News) will shortly be starting a series, “Talk to the Fossils,” at Evolution News & Views that talks about what we really know about situations where evolution does occur. What patterns do we really see?

Follow UD News at Twitter!

Comments
wd400- Darwin, Mayr, Denton, Knox and Wagner have all made the case that evolution is too complex and messy to produce a nested hierarchy which requires distinct and pristine groups. Your position cannot explain birds, nor Moa. nor anything beyond slight variations of the given starting populations of prokaryotes. Perhaps you should go learn about nested hierarchies and come back when you have specific questions. Also read the authors I mentioned- it would help.Virgil Cain
June 21, 2015
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Can you answer the question? Is archaeopteryx a bird despite having teeth? Or are Moa birds, despite not having any wings?wd400
June 21, 2015
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Unguided evolution cannot explain tetrapods. You need to back up and find a mechanism capable of explaining what we observe. And yes, the nested hierarchy does have a few exceptions.Virgil Cain
June 21, 2015
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Are snakes tetrapods?wd400
June 21, 2015
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Go on then, what else does a tree need?
Quite a bit. Start with the definitions, each set, each level- you really have no idea, do you? Animalia forms a nested hierarchy as it consists and contains all sets and levels under it. Animalia is not a population but a set of defining characteristics. All animals have to have these defining characteristics. The US Army also forms a nested hierarchy and each set and level is properly defined and assigned. Why do you ignore Darwin, Mayr, Denton, Knox and Wagner?Virgil Cain
June 21, 2015
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A tree is not a nested hierarchy. A nested hierarchy has specific entailments that are not inherent in a mere tree.
Go on then, what else does a tree need? Maybe demonstrate using a group like tetrapoda?wd400
June 21, 2015
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wd400
Why does Linnaues’ biological classification worked so well, when his attempts to apply the same system to rocks and minerals failed so badly?
1- It wouldn't if unguided evolution were true 2- It does because unguided evolution isn't true 3- Rocks and minerals were not designed to a common specification, ie a common design.
I think it’s because the hierarchical system prefectly describes what you get from divergent evolution (groups united by their shared common ancestors).
Nested hierarchies are different from mere hierarchies. Darwin explained why we shouldn't observe a nested hierarchy. He used extinction events to justify the distinct classes. Why do you ignore Darwin, Mayr, Denton, Knox and Wagner? Only intelligent design can produce an objective nested hierarchy. A tree is not a nested hierarchy. A nested hierarchy has specific entailments that are not inherent in a mere tree.Virgil Cain
June 21, 2015
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Joe, Why does Linnaues' biological classification worked so well, when his attempts to apply the same system to rocks and minerals failed so badly? I think it's because the hierarchical system prefectly describes what you get from divergent evolution (groups united by their shared common ancestors). Because live evolved in this tree-like way, life can be described with a system like Linnaues'. Rocks didn't come about in this way, so the system fails. Do you have a better answer?wd400
June 21, 2015
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Zachriel:
"the modified descendants proceeding from one progenitor become broken up into groups subordinate to groups.”
So no relationship at all. Why didn't you just say that? Linnaean taxonomy is the nested hierarchy. It has nothing to do with phylogenetics. And it has nothing to do with "the modified descendants proceeding from one progenitor become broken up into groups subordinate to groups". A family tree represents "the modified descendants proceeding from one progenitor become broken up into groups subordinate to groups" and they do not form nested hierarchies based on traits. Zachriel's ignorance and deception do not constitute a substantive argument.Virgil Cain
June 21, 2015
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Virgil Cain: What relationship? "the modified descendants proceeding from one progenitor become broken up into groups subordinate to groups."Zachriel
June 21, 2015
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Zachriel:
Luskin is clearly noting the relationship between the nested hierarchy and the phylogenetic tree.
What relationship? Please be specific. Linnaean taxonomy is the nested hierarchy. It has nothing to do with phylogenetics.Virgil Cain
June 21, 2015
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Virgil Cain: Yet a phylogenetic tree is not a nested hierarchy and evolution doesn’t predict a nested hierarchy. Luskin is clearly noting the relationship between the nested hierarchy and the phylogenetic tree. You might want to take it up with him.Zachriel
June 21, 2015
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Yet a phylogenetic tree is not a nested hierarchy and evolution doesn't predict a nested hierarchy.Virgil Cain
June 21, 2015
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From the first mention of nested hierarchy on this thread:
Casey Luskin: In other words, these methods don’t test whether all organisms fit into a nested hierarchy (i.e., phylogenetic tree).
Zachriel
June 21, 2015
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Zachriel:
Semantics still doesn’t constitute a substantive argument.
It does when semantics is point under debate. Are you really that obtuse that you can say when discussing how something is defined that properly defining it is not a substantive argument? Really? Evolution does not predict a nested hierarchy. Darwin said why it doesn't. Mayr, Denton, Knox and Wagner have confirmed that it does not. Cladistics assumes ancestor-descendent relationships. And evolution doesn't predict the pattern of any cladogram.Virgil Cain
June 21, 2015
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Virgil Cain: Nested hierarchies are DEFINED as groups within groups. Groups subordinate to groups is not part of the definition of nested hierarchies. Semantics still doesn't constitute a substantive argument. http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/evo_06Zachriel
June 21, 2015
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Zachriel:
We used the term nesting in the same sense as Darwin referred to groups, and the same way as over a century of biological science.
You are obviously confused. In comment 10 you used the word nesting correctly. And now you have changed and you are being deceitful. Darwin didn't say anything about nesting groups.
Semantics doesn’t represent a substantive argument.
Your ignorance, dishonesty and lack of integrity do not amount to an argument. Nested hierarchies are DEFINED as groups within groups. Groups subordinate to groups is not part of the definition of nested hierarchies.Virgil Cain
June 21, 2015
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Virgil Cain: ”groups subordinate to groups” is not the same as groups within groups. We used the term nesting in the same sense as Darwin referred to groups, and the same way as over a century of biological science. Semantics doesn't represent a substantive argument.Zachriel
June 21, 2015
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Zachriel, " groups subordinate to groups" is not the same as groups within groups. Nested hierarchies require groups within groups not mere groups subordinate to groups. And even Darwin said:
Extinction has only defined the groups: it has by no means made them; for if every form which has ever lived on this earth were suddenly to reappear, though it would be quite impossible to give definitions by which each group could be distinguished, still a natural classification, or at least a natural arrangement, would be possible.- Charles Darwin chapter 14
So Zachriel proves, once again, that Zachriel doesn't know jack about nested hierarchies and evolution.Virgil Cain
June 21, 2015
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Virgil Cain: Darwin .... have all explained why this is true. Quite the contrary.
Darwin, Origin of Species: I request the reader to turn to the diagram illustrating the action, as formerly explained, of these several principles; and he will see that the inevitable result is that the modified descendants proceeding from one progenitor become broken up into groups subordinate to groups. http://darwin-online.org.uk/graphics/Origin_Illustrations.html
Zachriel
June 21, 2015
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Zachriel, Evolution does not predict a nested hierarchy. Branching descent will not produce a nested hierarchy. Darwin, Mayr, Denton, Knox and Wagner have all explained why this is true. It would be in your best interest to read them and find out why. A family tree is an example of branching descent and you cannot create a nested hierarchy of traits from a family tree. OTOH the US Army has nothing to do with branching descent and it is constructed as a nested hierarchy.Virgil Cain
June 21, 2015
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Mung: Seeing patterns that aren’t there. Try a simple example; lion, bear, trout. When considering the entirety of traits, which one is not like the others. Virgil Cain: YOU went from nested hierarchy to nested pattern. The nesting pattern is obviously hierarchical, and follows from branching descent.Zachriel
June 21, 2015
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Zachriel:
Notably, you went from saying the nested pattern couldn’t be produced by anything other than “intelligent design” to “What nested pattern?”
More notably, YOU went from nested hierarchy to nested pattern.
Here’s a simple example of nesting: Bears and rodents nest within mammals. Mammalia and aves nest within amniota. Amniota and amphibia nest within tetrapoda.
And evolution didn't predict pattern that and common design did. Linnaeus based his classification on a common design using shared characteristics to flesh it out.Virgil Cain
June 21, 2015
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Poor Zachriel. Seeing patterns that aren't there.Mung
June 21, 2015
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Virgil Cain: What nested pattern? Notably, you went from saying the nested pattern couldn't be produced by anything other than "intelligent design" to "What nested pattern?" Here's a simple example of nesting: Bears and rodents nest within mammals. Mammalia and aves nest within amniota. Amniota and amphibia nest within tetrapoda.Zachriel
June 21, 2015
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Zachriel:
If the rate of change is too fast, then we the nested pattern can be lost.
What nested pattern?
However, we know the rate of genetic mutation, and can show this creates a nested pattern of, for instance, synonymous substitutions.
We know that you don't know what you are talking about. Please define "nested pattern".Virgil Cain
June 21, 2015
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Virgil Cain: No, it won’t as traits can be lost, gained or remain unchanged. If the rate of change is too fast, then we the nested pattern can be lost. However, we know the rate of genetic mutation, and can show this creates a nested pattern of, for instance, synonymous substitutions.Zachriel
June 21, 2015
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Zachriel:
Branching descent will produce a nested pattern of character traits.
No, it won't as traits can be lost, gained or remain unchanged. Also transitional forms would ruin any attempt at an objective nested hierarchy.Virgil Cain
June 21, 2015
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Virgil Cain: Intelligent design is the only known process capable of producing an objective nested hierarchy. Branching descent will produce a nested pattern of character traits.Zachriel
June 21, 2015
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Zachriel:
The biological nested hierarchy is objectively supported.
Intelligent design is the only known process capable of producing an objective nested hierarchy. Evolution is too messy to produce such a pattern. See Mayr, Darwin, Denton, Wagner and Knox.Virgil Cain
June 21, 2015
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