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Does Darwin’s theory of evolution address the origin of life?

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In reply to “UD Pro-Darwinism Essay Challenge, Elizabeth Liddle writes:

KF: there is a simple misunderstanding here. In Darwin’s words:

There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone circling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved.

In other words, Darwin, and indeed modern evolutionary theory is about descent from “few forms or one”.

It is NOT about the origins of those “few forms or one”.

If you want to uses the tree analogy, it accounts for the trunk to the twigs; it does not account for the origin of the trunk.

Liddle is correct on a basic point: Darwin’s theory proposed to explain transformations of species, not origin of life. That said, most Darwinians have hoped to extend the scope of the theory to encompass prebiotic “evolution” – and they routinely do.

No surprise, because their alternatives are grim: Space aliens, God, or non-Darwinian evolution theories – all of which they minimize or reject because every competitive possibility detracts from their rule. That is the actual reason Darwin in the schools lobbies don’t want competing naturalistic possibilities taught. Such possibilities force an evaluation of the strength of the argument for natural selection as the driver in each and every single case instead of just equating Darwin’s theory with evolution generally. Which is, of course, what they want and need to do.

Darwinism can succeed only as a totalistic system. Of course natural selection does not create complex new organs in life forms in reality. But if all other possibilities are removed, it remains, as Richard Dawkins said back in 1993, the only possibility. And therefore, you see, it or something like it must be true.

I experienced much confusion in these matters until I finally understood that aspect of the struggle. Darwin’s followers will at one and the same time say their theory does not cover OOL and tout with approval papers about chemical prebiotic evolution along Darwinian lines with no inner sense of contradiction. Because their system is totalistic, they do not experience any contradiction, merely an awareness of territory they have not yet claimed.

Comments
What science can do, with a high degree of confidence, however, is tell you that some models are not the truth. Science tells us absolutely unambiguously, for instance, that the world is not 6,000 years old, nor made over the course of 6 days. But it cannot tell us that an unconstrained designer must have designed life. Nor that one didn't. It can only falsify a predictive model. It cannot falsify a model that makes no predictions.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 27, 2013
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Of course tjguy. Science cannot tell us the truth. It can only tell us how well our models fit our data. They never fit perfectly, and our data always have measurement error. I completely agree that science cannot tell you the truth. What it tells you is whether the world is predictable and how to predict it. The fact that we have so many successful predictive models is a strong indication that reality makes some kind of underlying sense, and gives us confidence that our models today will still predict things tomorrow. But they may not. We cannot rule out factors that are arbitrary and in principle unpredictable, for example divine intervention. Nor can we rule them in. All we can say, is "whatever caused this is something we do not yet have a predictive rule for". This is not a problem for science, because science makes no claims to be able to tell us whether something is unknowable or not. And therefore no claim to be able to tell us whether or not something had a "super-natural" cause. However, it is a huge problem for ID, which seeks to demonstrate, by scientific reasoning, that we must rule in an unknowable cause. Regarding your last paragraph: That doesn't mean that scientific conclusions are not accurate, and as for trustworthiness, they always come with estimates (e.g. "confidence intervals"). And they are always provisional. And nor does it mean we cannot make and test models about the past - our models do not have to predict future repetitions of the event in question - they do have to predict new data.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 27, 2013
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Lizzie @ 32
bevets:
If ‘therefore God’ is ALWAYS ruled out, how is your view substantively different than philosophical naturalism?
It is always ruled out as a scientific conclusion. It is not ruled out as either a truth or a perfectly valid belief.
If that's the game you want to play, then you must freely admit that science may not be able to arrive at the truth. It might also be that you are seeking for an answer where one does not exist. There is no way you can avoid this possibility. If that's the approach you are going to take, that's fine, but there is simply no guarantee that your "scientific conclusion" will be accurate or trustworthy especially when dealing with the unobservable, untestable, and unrepeatable past.tjguy
September 27, 2013
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So Behe appears not to dispute time-scales, common descent or natural selection. He just argues from incredulity that random variation is not sufficient to achieve the diversity of extant and extinct life that we see. Then defaults to the conclusion that an “Intelligent Design” inference is thus warranted. Hard to see how anyone could turn this gut feeling into a testable hypothesis.
But I guess you can ask other ID proponents and get the full gamut of variation from Johnson’s simple “God did it” to Behe’s “I just don’t think random variation can explain everything”.
Why do you say that Behe's argument is simply "I just don't think random variation can explain anything"? He has real experimental scientific reasons for his conclusion. It's more than just a feeling. But then, I can turn around and ask you the same thing. Your argument is simply "I just think random variation CAN explain everything." I don't see any difference whatsoever. Neither side can observe history or repeat it to see if either one is right. In some respects, it does come down to beliefs based on how we interpret the evidence. You don't think there is a God so obviously you will say that even though we can't explain all the details, you think it happened simply by random mutation and whatever other evolutionary process you want to throw in there. That's fine, but there is no experimental proof or verification for this.tjguy
September 27, 2013
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Kantian Naturalist, if you can't back up your atheistic claims at the foundational level of reality with physics you have no true foundation within science in the first place!
"Physics is the only real science. The rest are just stamp collecting." -- Ernest Rutherford
For you to pretend that you can make up for this gross deficiency in empirical evidence for your atheistic beliefs at the level of neuroscience without first building a solid foundation within physics is equivalent to trying to build a house on a foundation of sand. It is foolish to even try. Notes:
Can quantum theory be improved? - July 23, 2012 Excerpt: However, in the new paper, the physicists have experimentally demonstrated that there cannot exist any alternative theory that increases the predictive probability of quantum theory by more than 0.165, with the only assumption being that measurement (conscious observation) parameters can be chosen independently (free choice, free will, assumption) of the other parameters of the theory.,,, ,, the experimental results provide the tightest constraints yet on alternatives to quantum theory. The findings imply that quantum theory is close to optimal in terms of its predictive power, even when the predictions are completely random. http://phys.org/news/2012-07-quantum-theory.html
Now this is simply unprecedented in science as far as I know. i.e. That a mathematical description of reality would advance to the point that one can actually perform a experiment showing that your current mathematical theory will not be exceeded in predictive power by another future theory is simply unprecedented in science! And please note that free will and consciousness are axiomatic to Quantum Theory in the experiment., Of related note:
What Does Quantum Physics Have to Do with Free Will? - By Antoine Suarez - July 22, 2013 Excerpt: What is more, recent experiments are bringing to light that the experimenter’s free will and consciousness should be considered axioms (founding principles) of standard quantum physics theory. So for instance, in experiments involving “entanglement” (the phenomenon Einstein called “spooky action at a distance”), to conclude that quantum correlations of two particles are nonlocal (i.e. cannot be explained by signals traveling at velocity less than or equal to the speed of light), it is crucial to assume that the experimenter can make free choices, and is not constrained in what orientation he/she sets the measuring devices. To understand these implications it is crucial to be aware that quantum physics is not only a description of the material and visible world around us, but also speaks about non-material influences coming from outside the space-time.,,, https://www.bigquestionsonline.com/content/what-does-quantum-physics-have-do-free-will
So KN if you really want to impress me with the prowess of your atheistic intellect please feel free to improve on quantum mechanics so that consciousness and free will are not required axioms to it! Until then I will rightly assume you to be a useless stamp collector! Of note: since our free will choices figure so prominently in how reality is actually found to be constructed in our understanding of quantum mechanics, I think a Christian perspective on just how important our choices are in this temporal life, in regards to our eternal destiny, is very fitting:
Is God Good? (Free will and the problem of evil) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfd_1UAjeIA Ravi Zacharias - How To Measure Your Choices - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Op_S5syhKI You must measure your choices by the measure of 1) eternity 2) morality 3) accountability 4) charity
Verse and Music:
The Wise and Foolish Builders Matthew 7:24-27 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.” Creed - My Sacrifice http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-fyNgHdmLI
bornagain77
September 26, 2013
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Sure, let’s just assume it happened and not even raise the question of whether it’s even possible.
Well, of course you could raise the question of whether it's even possible but how would you answer it without trying to finding out whether it was possible? Or would you just sit there, stare at it for a bit, and say "nah, not possible"?Elizabeth B Liddle
September 26, 2013
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Mung:
What does it mean to say that some system is “Darwinian-capable”?
That it has the prerequisites for Darwinian adaptation, namely it is a population of self-replicators that reproduce with heritable variance in reproductive success.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 26, 2013
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Wrong again, Elizabeth. Descent with modification was Darwin’s explanation. You really need to learn the difference between what it is that is being explained and what is offered as the explanation. Knowing the difference is fundamental to good science.
Mung, I think it's time I simply ignored your posts. No, you are wrong, yet again. Descent with modification is neither explanation nor explanandum. It was an observation (offspring look like, but not exactly like, their parents). The explanandum was observed pattern of apparently indicating common descent but with diversification and adaptation. The explanation was descent with modification where that modification confers differential reproductive success. It's all in Origin. I suggest you read it, or simply a good modern text book, before you next tell me I am "wrong". Or, more to the point, before you attempt to critique a theory you simply do not appear to understand. *growl*Elizabeth B Liddle
September 26, 2013
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It's not "fuzzy" at all, Mung. A self-replicator is something that replicates itself, duh. So where there was one thing, you now have two similar things.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 26, 2013
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Elizabeth is not excelling here at the moment, Mung, is she? What do you think you should put in her 'end of term' report? I would put, 'Tries hard, but easily distracted and needs to pay more attention.'Axel
September 26, 2013
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In re: Mung @ 46, I haven't read Stenger's book, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if he committed that particular mistake. Dawkins does, if I recall correctly what he does in The God Delusion. I find the condescending, derogatory tone of the New Atheists so distasteful that I cannot stand to read of that stuff any more. So I'm not going to bother with reading Stenger's book.Kantian Naturalist
September 26, 2013
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Elizabeth Liddle:
Darwinian evolution cannot occur until there is a self-replicator.
Like the "self-replicators" in evolutionary algorithms? Like the "self-replicators" in your own program that you thought refuted Dembski? Once again, you are all over the map. You believe Darwinian evolution can take place in a simulation written by a programmer and run on a computer, even though no actual "self-replication" is involved. I know you do, I've seen you say it more than once. So just how fuzzy is this concept of "self-replication' allowed to be, in your opinion?Mung
September 26, 2013
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Elizabeth Liddle:
Darwinian evolution requires descent with modification.
Wrong again, Elizabeth. Descent with modification was Darwin's explanation. You really need to learn the difference between what it is that is being explained and what is offered as the explanation. Knowing the difference is fundamental to good science.Mung
September 26, 2013
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Elizabeth Liddle:
The issues are: 1. What would such elementary Darwinian-capable ancestral proto-life forms have been like and how did they arise? 2. By what Darwinian means did they get from that simple state to the DNA-RNA-protein systems now ubiquitous in living things?
No, those are not the issues. The first and most fundamental issue is one that is crucial to Darwinian theory but absent from it. What does it mean to say that some system is "Darwinian-capable"?
2. By what Darwinian means did they get from that simple state to the DNA-RNA-protein systems now ubiquitous in living things?
Sure, let's just assume it happened and not even raise the question of whether it's even possible. Let's just assume a simple-state that the "evolved" somehow, into the RNA-DNA-Protein-Metabolism-Cellular system that is the only known form of life and only non-human designed (as far as we know) "Darwinian-capable" system.Mung
September 26, 2013
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Well, Philip, if you're not interested in talking about neuroscience and I'm not interested in talking about quantum mechanics, we don't have much to talk about! In any event, I only cited Churchland to indicate why I don't take Plantinga's EAAN seriously. I'm not completely happy with Churchland's response and I may try to improve on it at some point. But writing on the EAAN would require reading Naturalism Defeated?, which I don't have time to do at present.Kantian Naturalist
September 26, 2013
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In the volume Protocells: Bridging Nonliving and Living Matter, the references to evolution and selection are too numerous to mention. Go figure. While the references to Evolvability are less numerous, the term is consipicuously absent from the Glossary.Mung
September 26, 2013
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Given the OP, worth the full quote, I think. Elizabeth Liddle:
You are still confused. Current theories of OoL posit that the simplest Darwinian-capable entities (self-replicators replicating with heritable variance in reproductive success) were sufficiently simple to have arisen by chemistry (not, obviously by the Darwinian mechanisms because they are a prerequisite for the Darwinian mechanism). Whether you want to call them “alive” or not is a matter of semantics; the important point is that the first ones must, absent some miraculous explanation, have arisen by non-Darwinian processes. The issues are 1. What would such elementary Darwinian-capable ancestral proto-life forms have been like and how did they arise? 2. By what Darwinian means did they get from that simple state to the DNA-RNA-protein systems now ubiquitous in living things? So yes, Darwinian processes are part of the research project (because the gap in our knowledge is not simply from non-self-replicating chemistry to self-replicating proto-cells, but from self-replicating proto-cells to modern-type cells), but that is NOT to say that the Darwinian mechanism can account for that first step. Self-evidently it cannot.
Mung
September 26, 2013
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KN:
(1) There is all the difference in the world between taking “God exists” as the conclusion of an argument and taking “God exists” as a hypothesis to be tested. Lizzie’s point is that it cannot be taken in the second sense, because we have no way of operationalizing the constraints on the hypothesis in such a way as to generate usable data. Frankly, it baffles me that so many well-educated people who are presumably well-informed about philosophy and science cannot grasp this simple point.
People like Victor J. Stenger, for example? God: The Failed Hypothesis. How Science Shows That God Does Not ExistMung
September 26, 2013
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I missed that part of evolutionary theory, you know, where it defines the minimal system necessary for Darwinian evolution. If course, if the theory did define such a system, we wouldn’t be arguing over it.
It doesn't.
Darwinians are confused about their own theory, is it any wonder others are as well?
I don't think evolutionary biologists are confused. I can't speak for you however.
I just replicated some text, then I modified it, and then I selected which version survived. Darwinian evolution? Why not?
Not a self-replicating system. Definitely designed.Jerad
September 26, 2013
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No, Mung, it is you who are confused. Darwinian evolution requires descent with modification. You can't have descent without a self-replicator. And you can't have natural selection without modification. So the minimum requirement is a self-replicator with hereditary modification. Darwinian evolution cannot occur until there is a self-replicator. Therefore, Darwinian evolution cannot account for the first self-replicator Darwin made that quite clear, in the famous last paragraph of Origin.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 26, 2013
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Darwinism begins once there is replication.
Nope. You cannot extend the theory that self-replication with heritable variance in reproductive success leads to adaptation and diversification to explain why there are self-replicators that self-replicate with heritable variance with reproductive success.
Mung
September 26, 2013
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Darwinism begins once there is replication.
Says who? I missed that part of evolutionary theory, you know, where it defines the minimal system necessary for Darwinian evolution. If course, if the theory did define such a system, we wouldn't be arguing over it. Darwinians are confused about their own theory, is it any wonder others are as well? I just replicated some text, then I modified it, and then I selected which version survived. Darwinian evolution? Why not?Mung
September 26, 2013
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Bernard Haisch is an odd mixture of beliefs. Not a theist, he supports pandeism, the belief that God became the universe. Which is basically a mixture of deism and pantheism. His God theory has rejected intelligent design, yet he believes God programmed evolution. He is also a Darwinist and his book The Purpose-Guided Universe claims natural selection was originally created by the mind of God. I doubt he has many followers! Original thinker though who can certainly think outside of the box.TheisticEvolutionist
September 26, 2013
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KN, you seem to miss the whole concept of empirical warrant at the foundational level of reality, physics, of which I mean it. When I state that you have no empirical warrant for your atheistic position, what I mean is that you materialists/naturalists have no empirical evidence whatsoever as to how consciousness can emerge from a non-conscious material basis whereas I have several lines of evidence that consciousness, not material, is foundational to reality. Notes:
'But the hard problem of consciousness is so hard that I can't even imagine what kind of empirical findings would satisfactorily solve it. In fact, I don't even know what kind of discovery would get us to first base, not to mention a home run.' David Barash - Materialist/Atheist Darwinian Psychologist The Hard Problem (Of Consciousness) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRG1fA_DQ9s "We have so much confidence in our materialist assumptions (which are assumptions, not facts) that something like free will is denied in principle. Maybe it doesn’t exist, but I don’t really know that. Either way, it doesn’t matter because if free will and consciousness are just an illusion, they are the most seamless illusions ever created. Film maker James Cameron wishes he had special effects that good. Matthew D. Lieberman - neuroscientist - materialist - UCLA professor
Whereas on the other hand, the Theist is up to his eyeballs in empirical evidence that consciousness precedes material reality:
“I’m going to talk about the Bell inequality, and more importantly a new inequality that you might not have heard of called the Leggett inequality, that was recently measured. It was actually formulated almost 30 years ago by Professor Leggett, who is a Nobel Prize winner, but it wasn’t tested until about a year and a half ago (in 2007), when an article appeared in Nature, that the measurement was made by this prominent quantum group in Vienna led by Anton Zeilinger, which they measured the Leggett inequality, which actually goes a step deeper than the Bell inequality and rules out any possible interpretation other than consciousness creates reality when the measurement is made.” – Bernard Haisch, Ph.D., Calphysics Institute, is an astrophysicist and author of over 130 scientific publications. Preceding quote taken from this following video; Quantum Mechanics and Consciousness - A New Measurement - Bernard Haisch, Ph.D (Shortened version of entire video with notes in description of video) http://vimeo.com/37517080 1. Consciousness either preceded all of material reality or is a 'epi-phenomena' of material reality. 2. If consciousness is a 'epi-phenomena' of material reality then consciousness will be found to have no special position within material reality. Whereas conversely, if consciousness precedes material reality then consciousness will be found to have a special position within material reality. 3. Consciousness is found to have a special, even central, position within material reality. 4. Therefore, consciousness is found to precede material reality. Four intersecting lines of experimental evidence from quantum mechanics that shows that consciousness precedes material reality (Wigner’s Quantum Symmetries, Wheeler’s Delayed Choice, Leggett’s Inequalities, Quantum Zeno effect): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1G_Fi50ljF5w_XyJHfmSIZsOcPFhgoAZ3PRc_ktY8cFo/edit
Another piece of evidence that I find very compelling is that atheists cannot live out their stated beliefs consistently, thus, at least for me, proving that their beliefs can't possibly be a true for reality:
The Heretic - Who is Thomas Nagel and why are so many of his fellow academics condemning him? - March 25, 2013 Excerpt:,,,Fortunately, materialism is never translated into life as it’s lived. As colleagues and friends, husbands and mothers, wives and fathers, sons and daughters, materialists never put their money where their mouth is. Nobody thinks his daughter is just molecules in motion and nothing but; nobody thinks the Holocaust was evil, but only in a relative, provisional sense. A materialist who lived his life according to his professed convictions—understanding himself to have no moral agency at all, seeing his friends and enemies and family as genetically determined robots—wouldn’t just be a materialist: He’d be a psychopath. http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/heretic_707692.html?page=3
Moreover, this psychopathic characteristic inherent to the atheistic philosophy is born out empirically, in that people who do not believe in a soul tend to be more psychopathic than the majority of normal people in America who do believe in a soul. You can pick that psychopathic study of atheists around the 14:30 minute mark of this following video:
Anthony Jack, Why Don’t Psychopaths Believe in Dualism? – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=UUmmObUi8Fq9g1Zcuzqbt0_g&feature=player_detailpage&v=XRGWe-61zOk#t=862s
Verse and music:
2 Timothy 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. Chris Tomlin - Awake My Soul (with Lecrae) [Official Lyric Video] http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=0902E1NU
bornagain77
September 26, 2013
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I didn't list Plantinga's reply, but I did mention it. One of the questions at stake in the Plantinga-Churchland debate is the very deep issue of foundationalism vs antifoundationalism, and more specifically, whether we first have to get the epistemology right and then do neuroscience, or if we can use neuroscience in doing epistemology. Churchland thinks we can use neuroscience in order to explain how we know anything at all, including what we know about the brain. Whereas Plantinga seems to think that naturalism can be shown to be self-defeating based merely upon a priori, probabilistic argument about logical possibilities. So in this case, it's Churchland who has more respect for empirical warrant than Plantinga.Kantian Naturalist
September 26, 2013
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Well seeing as you have little (nothing) to offer in the way of countering what the empirical evidence actual says (as usual), I'll just list the rebuttal from Plantinga that you forgot to list and note that you have no empirical warrant for your position: Aaron Segal, Alvin Plantinga Pages 201-207 DOI: 10.5840/philo20101326 Response to Churchland Paul Churchland argues that Plantinga’s evolutionary argument against naturalism is unsuccessful and so we need not accept its conclusion. In this paper, we respond to Churchland’s argument. After we briefly recapitulate Plantinga’s argument and state Churchland’s argument, we offer three objections to Churchland’s argument: (1) its first premise has little to recommend it, (2) its second premise is false, and (3) its conclusion is consistent with, and indeed entails, the conclusion of Plantinga’s argument. http://www.pdcnet.org/philo/content/philo_2010_0013_0002_0201_0207bornagain77
September 26, 2013
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Leaving aside the quantum physics, which I'm not competent to address, I've addressed on several occasions here why I think Plantinga's EAAN is a mistake. Briefly, I think the EAAN only works if one assumes a basically Cartesian picture of the problem that epistemology must solve, and that we have extremely good reasons to reject that picture. Nullasalus and I had a very productive exchange three or four months ago about the cogency of Churchland's response to Plantinga in "Is Evolutionary Naturalism Epistemologically Self-Defeating (Philo Volume 12, Issue 2, Fall/Winter 2009, pp 135-141). Here's the abstract:
Alvin Plantinga argues that our cognitive mechanisms have been selected for their ability to sustain reproductively successful behaviors, not for their ability to track truth. This aspect of our cognitive mechanisms is said to pose a problem for the biological theory of evolution by natural selection in the following way. If our cognitive mechanisms do not provide any assurances that the theories generated by them are true, then the fact that evolutionary theory has been generated by them, and even accepted by them, provides no assurance whatever that evolutionary theory is true. Plantinga’s argument, I argue, innocently assumes that the (problematic) “truth-tracking character” of our native cognitive mechanisms is the only possible or available source of rational warrant or justification for evolutionary theory. But it isn’t. Plantinga is ignoring the artificial mechanisms for theorycreation and theory-evaluation embodied in the complex institutions and procedures of modern science.
I found Plantinga's response basically inadequate, but as I said, Nullasalus and I had a good argument about it. We ended up disagreeing on the fundamental issue as to whether epistemology must accommodate our pre-theoretic intuitions about notions such as "belief" or "truth," where I took the Sellarsian position (which is also Churchland's) that there aren't any pre-theoretic intuitions -- all of our intuitions about 'belief' or 'truth' are themselves influenced by the conceptual framework, and to the extent that that framework is itself basically Cartesian, it must be called into question. However, I happily note that I don't agree with Churchland in all respects here -- I think he's right to be suspicious of the idea that we will find neurophysiological processes that instantiate propositional contents as such, but any naturalism worth its salt must offer some account of propositional content. Churchland himself thinks that his account is compatible with Brandom's work on propositional content as socially instituted inferential norms, but that seems like a bit of a dodge, to say the least!Kantian Naturalist
September 26, 2013
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Funny, atheists insist that God, Who is postulated to have created and to sustain the universe, cannot be deduced from our science, for contrary to their inside the box delusions (or is shadows in Plato's cave more apt?), God, from advances in Big Bang cosmology and quantum mechanics, is, by far, the best explanation for why the universe was created and for why it continues to exist.
God Is the Best Explanation for the Origin of the Universe - William Lane Craig - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwRR5WTgpp8 God Is the Best Explanation For Why Anything At All Exists - William Lane Craig - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjuqBxg_5mA ‘Quantum Magic’ Without Any ‘Spooky Action at a Distance’ – June 2011 Excerpt: A team of researchers led by Anton Zeilinger at the University of Vienna and the Institute for Quantum Optics and Quantum Information of the Austrian Academy of Sciences used a system which does not allow for entanglement, and still found results which cannot be interpreted classically. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110624111942.htm i.e. Photons are found to require a beyond space and time, ‘non-local’, cause to explain their continued existence in space time.
Moreover, without God, the practice of science itself becomes epistemologically self defeating.
The Great Debate: Does God Exist? - Justin Holcomb - audio of the 1985 debate available on the site Excerpt: The transcendental proof for God’s existence is that without Him it is impossible to prove anything. The atheist worldview is irrational and cannot consistently provide the preconditions of intelligible experience, science, logic, or morality. The atheist worldview cannot allow for laws of logic, the uniformity of nature, the ability for the mind to understand the world, and moral absolutes. In that sense the atheist worldview cannot account for our debate tonight.,,, http://theresurgence.com/2012/01/17/the-great-debate-does-god-exist Epistemology – Why Should The Human Mind Even Be Able To Comprehend Reality? – Stephen Meyer - video – (Notes in description) http://vimeo.com/32145998 "If you have no God, then you have no design plan for the universe. You have no prexisting structure to the universe.,, As the ancient Greeks held, like Democritus and others, the universe is flux. It's just matter in motion. Now on that basis all you are confronted with is innumerable brute facts that are unrelated pieces of data. They have no meaningful connection to each other because there is no overall structure. There's no design plan. It's like my kids do 'join the dots' puzzles. It's just dots, but when you join the dots there is a structure, and a picture emerges. Well, the atheists is without that (final picture). There is no preestablished pattern (to connect the facts given atheism)." Pastor Joe Boot Why No One (Can) Believe Atheism/Naturalism to be True - video Excerpt: "Since we are creatures of natural selection, we cannot totally trust our senses. Evolution only passes on traits that help a species survive, and not concerned with preserving traits that tell a species what is actually true about life." Richard Dawkins - quoted from "The God Delusion" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4QFsKevTXs Alvin Plantinga - Evolutionary Argument against Naturalism - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r34AIo-xBh8 Content and Natural Selection - Alvin Plantinga - 2011 http://www.andrewmbailey.com/ap/Content_Natural_Selection.pdf
see also Boltzmann's Brain I don't know why atheists fail to see this.bornagain77
September 26, 2013
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If one restricts science to the natural, and assumes that science can in principle get to all truth, then one has implicitly assumed philosophical naturalism.
That's a nice way of putting it. But notice that there are two distinct premises here: (1) science is restricted to the natural world. (2) science can in principle get to all truth. (3) so, all the truth that there is, is about the natural world. Now, since (1) and (2) are distinct, one can reject (3) by tossing out (1) or (2). (Of course, one could reject both premises, but one doesn't have to reject both in order to reject the conclusion. Rejecting only one of them is enough.) So, which one to reject? Part of the argument we're having here is between those who reject (1) and those who reject (2). Personally, I'd want to retain (1) -- though subject it to careful re-interpretation along the lines of empiricism -- and reject (2). I think we have plenty of good reasons to allow for different kinds of understanding and explanation besides those that constrained in the ways denominated by the term 'scientific', and that's what rejecting (2) would entail. I don't think we have good reasons to think that we can resolve conflicts between models about causal regularities without constraint by data, and that's what rejecting (1) would entail.Kantian Naturalist
September 26, 2013
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Two minor points: (1) There is all the difference in the world between taking "God exists" as the conclusion of an argument and taking "God exists" as a hypothesis to be tested. Lizzie's point is that it cannot be taken in the second sense, because we have no way of operationalizing the constraints on the hypothesis in such a way as to generate usable data. Frankly, it baffles me that so many well-educated people who are presumably well-informed about philosophy and science cannot grasp this simple point. (2) Following through on a conversation Lizzie had on a previous thread from a few days ago, Lizzie (and I, for that matter) are empiricists, not materialists. That's an epistemological position, not a metaphysical one. (There's an interesting question here why, how, and when "methodological naturalism" displaced "empiricism" as the term of art. Regardless, I think that it's been long enough since the hegemony of logical empiricism was broken that we can reclaim the word, especially in non-technical contexts such as this blog.) By "empiricism," I'm committing myself to the following claims:
(1) all explanation-providing models of causal regularities should be constrained by data as much as is technically feasible.
(2) if a highly-constrained model conflicts with a poorly-constrained model, the more highly-constrained model should be (ceteris paribus) preferred.
(3) if a data-constrained model of causal regularities conflicts with an unconstrained narrative about those regularities, the model should be (ceterius paribus) preferred.
(For the philosophically-sophisticated, I take it that this is a version of empiricism narrow enough to capture what makes the empiricist tradition different from rationalism, but broad enough to incorporate the Kantian and pragmatist criticisms of empiricism.)Kantian Naturalist
September 26, 2013
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