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UD Pro-Darwinism essay challenge unanswered a year later, I: Let’s get the essence of design theory as a scientific, inductive inference straight

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Today marks a full year since I issued an open challenge to Darwinists to ground their theory and its OOL extension and root, in light of actually observed capabilities of blind watchmaker mechanisms of chance and necessity through an essay I would host here at UD. The pivot of the challenge is the modern version of the very first Icon of Evolution, Darwin’s Tree of Life (which in an incomplete form is the ONLY image in original editions of Origin of Species), here typified by a case from the Smithsonian:

Darwin-ToL-Smithsonian400
Darwinist Tree of Life showing the root, OOL, from the Smithsonian

 

I first did so in an exchange thread, specifically responding to Jerad, then headlined it some days later. In lieu of prompt serious replies, I set up Wikipedia articles in the empty chair, then answered the usual polarising dismissals here and then also a suggestion that Talk Origins’ 29 evidences presentation by Theobald provided an adequate answer.

As is obvious from the headline, a full year later, there still is no robust answer from the advocates of evolutionary materialism.

First, let me refresh memories on the challenge: cf APPENDIX below

The main focus here, however is to begin by clearing the air after the smoke of many burning strawmen, on the core of the scientific design inference claim. A good way to do this is the following clip from a post in the ongoing charitableness debate:

In terms of the essence of the design theory view, it is that the deep past of origins cannot be directly observed so we must study its traces, and infer explanatory models on causal factors shown to produce consequences directly comparable to the traces. Thus such features, where characteristic of a cause, are an empirically reliable sign. And while inductive reasoning on signs is always provisional, it can be highly reliable.

Mechanical necessity such as F = ma, gives rise to low contingency natural regularities that are often reduced to laws. Chance processes yield high contingency outcomes that may follow relevant statistical distribution models such as the normal curve. Design will often be highly contingent also, but will frequently yield patterns such as functionally specific complex organisation and associated information (such as the text string in this post) [FSCO/I]  that are maximally implausible on chance but are on billions of cases observed a reliable sign of design.

No great mystery, and directly empirically testable, just show blind chance and mechanical necessity producing FSCO/I.

Only, that has not happened, many attempts notwithstanding.

So, we have good reason to rule out mechanical necessity if we see high contingency of outcomes under similar starting conditions, and chance if we see something utterly implausible by chance. This being done on a per aspect basis for an object, process, phenomenon, etc.

Nothing intrinsically strange or hard to follow, or in breach of canons of inductive, scientific reasoning.

And certainly no reference to the Nicene Creed or the Chicago declaration on inerrancy etc. No, quote Bible and try to guide science based on interpretation thereof. That is, not inherently religious.

The problem is, Darwinists nailed their flag to the mast 150 years ago, but over the past 60 years it has become plain that the world of life is chock full of signs of design, from DNA on up.

And the further problem over the same 60 years, is that the observed cosmos turns out to give every indication of being fine tuned in many ways that facilitate C chemistry, aqueous medium cell based life.

So, we are now in a position to further follow up on the matters at stake, anon. END

________________

APPENDIX:

UD PRO-DARWINISM ESSAY CHALLENGE: Compose your summary case for darwinism (or any preferred variant that has at least some significant support in the professional literature, such as punctuated equlibria etc) in a fashion that is accessible to the non-technical reader — based on empirical evidence that warrants the inference to body plan level macroevolution — in up to say 6,000 words [a chapter in a serious paper is often about that long]. Outgoing links are welcome so long as they do not become the main point. That is, there must be a coherent essay, with

(i)an intro,
(ii) a thesis,
(iii) a structure of exposition,
(iv) presentation of empirical warrant that meets the inference to best current empirically grounded explanation [–> IBCE] test for scientific reconstructions of the remote past,
(v) a discussion and from that
(vi) a warranted conclusion.

Your primary objective should be to show in this way, per IBCE, why there is no need to infer to design from the root of the Darwinian tree of life — cf. Smithsonian discussion here –  on up (BTW, it will help to find a way to resolve the various divergent trees), on grounds that the Darwinist explanation, as extended to include OOL, is adequate to explain origin and diversification of the tree of life. A second objective of like level is to show how your thesis is further supported by such evidence as suffices to warrant the onward claim that is is credibly the true or approximately true explanation of origin and body-plan level diversification of life; on blind watchmaker style chance variation plus differential reproductive success, starting with some plausible pre-life circumstance.

It would be helpful if in that essay you would outline why alternatives such as design, are inferior on the evidence we face. [As an initial spark for thinking, contrast my own survey of origins science here on (note the onward resources page), the definition of design theory in the UD resources tab top of this and every UD page, the Weak Argument Correctives in the same tab, the general resources that pop up on clicking the tab itself, and the discussion of design theory in the NWE article here. You may also want to refer to the site of the IDEA Center, and the Discovery Institute CSC site as well as Mike Gene’s Telic Thoughts. Notice IDEA’s essay on the case for design here.] . . . .

I would put this up as an original post, with preliminary contextual remarks and an invitation to respond in the comments section.

I will not submit the post with a rebutting markup or make an immediate rebuttal. In fact, let me make the offer to hold off my own comments for at least five initial comments. I will give you two full days of comments before I post any full post level response; though others at UD will be free to respond in their own right . . . .  [NB: I have given how to contact me in the original Sept 23 post, I will not repeat that in a headlined original post.]

Comments
It’s OK to have models, but the model must match the evidence, not our initial metaphysical assumptions. This is why “I don’t know” should always be the beginning assumption; the default. And to the contrary, It doesn’t imply that it’s hard to tell; rather that in whatever we are looking for we can’t assume one way or another (directed or undirected). We must allow the evidence to speak for itself.
We never KNOW for sure. [Jerad: do you know this for sure? Do you see how you are self-refuting here? KF] We can only find approximations. And the ones that fit that use the fewest unknown causes are more parsimonious. We don't KNOW how gravity works but we can model it. We don't KNOW a lot of things but we can predict and estimate their effects. You're picking on this one aspect for some reason. If some event or events occurs unpredictably and a random 'model' fits the data well then we use it.
You don’t really have a basis for “changing your tune” if you are intent to continue with your initial metaphysical assumption of (apparently) materialism. Materialism is a default for nothing.
If someone found data that showed that certain mutations were predictable then I would alter my view. Your assumption about my ideology is unfounded and telling. You think I hold my views because of an ideological commitment which makes it easier for you to dismiss my views because you think even I don't REALLY believe it. [--> Jerad: On the contrary, circular systems of thought such as a priori materialism are self reinforcing and seem to the true believer to be The Truth, the Golden Key to understanding all of reality. Kindly, provide observational warrant for blind watchmaker chance and necessity being able to produce a gated, encapsulated metabolising entity using algorithmic coded information and having a von Neumann self replication facility. Ditto, for origin of the 10 n- 100+ mn bits of incremental algorithmic coded info required for novel body plans, dozens of times over. Absent such the typical darwinist evolutionary picture of origins lacks a root and a mechanism capable of explaining branches in the Darwinist tree of life such as that used by the Smithsonian. We do know on billions of cases that FSCO/I is a reliable sign of design. KF]Jerad
September 26, 2013
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Where are these undirected models? How are they calibrated?Mung
September 26, 2013
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Jerad, "The behaviour we observe matches the undirected model. ‘We don’t know’ implies it’s hard to tell but . . . there is no indication of direction. At all." Again; you're begging the question. You can't begin with a determination that there is no direction and then state: "we see no indication of direction at all." It's OK to have models, but the model must match the evidence, not our initial metaphysical assumptions. This is why "I don't know" should always be the beginning assumption; the default. And to the contrary, It doesn't imply that it's hard to tell; rather that in whatever we are looking for we can't assume one way or another (directed or undirected). We must allow the evidence to speak for itself. ME: "I haven’t picked any model. I hold to allowing evidence to speak for itself. If it shows evidence of being undirected, I’m perfectly willing to allow that." "Good, then we’re in agreement. There is no evidence that mutations are directed." I can see how you have come to that conclusion based on your initiall assumptions; which I believe are circular. "When we discover a solid, verifiable reason to conclude ‘directed’ then I’ll change my tune." You don't really have a basis for "changing your tune" if you are intent to continue with your initial metaphysical assumption of (apparently) materialism. Materialism is a default for nothing.CannuckianYankee
September 26, 2013
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Elizabeth Liddle @204:
No, it merely reflected the fact that when I added the additional figure to my post, in which it is wrong, I temporarily forgot that Meyer had explicitly explained plural and singular earlier in the book. And yes, I readily conceded my error, in comments, and corrected it in the text.
lol. She cherry-picked a diagram from chapter 7 and injected it into her discussion of chapter 2 because all the diagrams from chapter 2 she posted and the actual text from chapter 2 didn't support her claim that Meyer didn't know the difference and in fact directly contradict her claim that Meyer didn't know the difference. Heck, even the diagram she cherry-picked from Chapter 7 has the term PHYLUM on the right hand side.
And yes, I readily conceded my error, in comments, and corrected it in the text.
But not because it was slanderous, right Alan Fox?Mung
September 26, 2013
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Elizabeth Liddle @193
It’s all microevolution, and it’s all “trivial” speciation, but as the lineages continue, the diverge further and further apart, and resemble each other less and less.
Standard Darwinian hogwash. And this from the person who also proclaims her personal belief that the theory is incomplete.Mung
September 26, 2013
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Elizabeth Liddle @131:
Clearly, Darwinian evolution cannot occur in the absence of self-replicators.
Sure it can. It takes place every day inside computers. Look up evolutionary algorithms.Mung
September 26, 2013
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As a first step, I am terminating this thread of discussion, as a mark of warning.
A warning? A warning of what? Is UD going to start banning people whose opinions they don't like again? ========= Jerad, it seems you are choosing not to notice that we are now dealing with someone, EL, who is hosting a blog where -- in an atmosphere of slanders and conspiracy stories taken as unquestionable fact -- millions have been deemed "ENEMIES OF HUMANITY" without a peep of protest. And on being formally notified of same, we see a blithe business as usual, rhetorical attack as usual, enabling as usual mentality. This is not freedom of expression, it is enabling of slander and hate speech. Something YOU are secondarily enabling by trying to further spread a false accusation of censorship over difference of opinion. Hate speech and enabling thereof fall outside the pale of such freedom. You too need to take warning. KF Jerad
September 26, 2013
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The problem is that the proposed naturalistic mechanisms don’t work, cannot work, will never work. Evolution is an atomic hoax. That’s all.
' . . . will never work.' No bias here then eh? I just don't understand something. ID proponents want to have an honest and open dialogue about the science and yet when some of us 'Darwinists' don't just spout off about 'IDiots' but take the time to attempt to have a real conversation here at Uncommon Descent we are met with ridicule, adamant refusal to see our point of view and accusations about our motives and characters. Thanks for the welcome. ======= Jerad, tone is a problem on both sides, as can be seen from the issue on the table over deeming millions ENEMIES OF HUMANITY, from your side. I wish it were not. On topical point, until darwinists show per credible observation that blind watchmaker chance and necessity is capable of generating bio-functional complex specified information, they simply do not have a mechanism in hand. Only, an imposed a priori of materialism per Lewontin et al, which is ideology not science. CY, below, is right that if we don't know, we don't know. But, we do know a definite source for FSCO/I, design. This covers codes, data structures with algorithmic coded information, algorithms and associated organised execution machines. Until and unless it is shown otherwise, per Newton's rules as discussed in 85 above, we have every epistemic right to conclude on billions of cases in point, that FSCO/I is a reliable sign of design as cause. If you wish to continue discussions on the merits, there is an open thread based on your comment 70 above. I have terminated this thread after dealing with a glitch, as a warning that we have here crossed a serious threshold and that rhetoric as usual and enabling as usual are not good enough. KFJerad
September 26, 2013
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“Undirected” assumes that it was undirected. This is why I asked why you don’t simply say “I don’t know.” You don’t know if it’s undirected. Therefore, “I don’t know” is the default here. You’re obviously inserting your own metaphysical beliefs into the equation in order to prove your metaphysical beliefs.
The behaviour we observe matches the undirected model. 'We don't know' implies it's hard to tell but . . . there is no indication of direction. At all.
I haven’t picked any model. I hold to allowing evidence to speak for itself. If it shows evidence of being undirected, I’m perfectly willing to allow that.
Good, then we're in agreement. There is no evidence that mutations are directed.
Undirected works find until we discover that it it’s directed. We don’t need to invoke anything to get there.
When we discover a solid, verifiable reason to conclude 'directed' then I'll change my tune.Jerad
September 26, 2013
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Jerad, do you realise how much enabling behaviour for what I have had to archive, you have put up? Please, think again
No, I don't know what you're talking about, even if I think I've parsed your convoluted grammar. I've spent hours of my time posting at UD, in good faith, with no agenda, no help, no conspirators, no compensation and very little appreciation or respect. And I get abuse, questions about my motives and intellectual capacity and very little thanks or understanding. But you feel compelled and justified in marginalising me and my comments as being wrong and enabling of behaviour which I have not condoned, participated in or even been aware of. You want me to respect and heed your views but it seems to me that you have no interest at all in me as a person. I'm just some 'enemy' that must be defeated. By stealth or by fire. As long as you appear to hold the 'higher' ground.Jerad
September 26, 2013
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EL & AF: Game over. Not a sign of a twinge of compunction over the matters that have been exposed. Remember, that includes an OP hosted by you EL and tot his moment enabled by you, that accuses millions of being enemies of humanity [presumably some being ringleaders to go through the equivalent of St Peter's upside down final appearance in Rome, and most dupes and so secondarily enemies to be "re-educated"], words that should chill anyone with a knowledge of relevant history. A bad sign indeed. You forget that I have the plantation in my bones. I know what it means when I am dealing with those who have not even a bit of remorse over what they have done or enabled. As a first step, I am terminating this thread of discussion, as a mark of warning. As a second step I suggest to the two of you that you take a time of reflection on what you are enabling. I hope that somewhere there is enough in you to have a spark of remorse. Failing that, the signs are bad indeed. Good day. GEM of TKI ++++++ F/N: Due to a glitch, this took timekairosfocus
September 26, 2013
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Dr. Liddle, Does not the 'creative force' you invoke ('heritable variation in reproductive success'), serve as a means to an end, namely survival? It seems to me that survival is purposeful, and if life is ultimately purposeful, perhaps purpose is a valid reason to assume the existence of a creator.littlejohn
September 26, 2013
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In my post @ 241, the PS is jerry's not mine - I inadvertently left my c&p in the post.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 26, 2013
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Of course, many people have been murdered for who they are. Of course gays and blacks are not the only victims. The sole reason for the example was that it was the issue under discussion.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 26, 2013
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Always the same example by liberals!
Homosexual people have been murdered for who they are, just as black people have been murdered for who they are. The principle used makes no odds. If that kind of thing is going to be ended, people have to be free to speak out.
But you forgot to mention cases of heterosexual people being murdered for being who they are and many cases of white slavery and innocent white people being murdered just because they are white. It's happened both ways, gays and blacks are not the only victims. Evil exists in all races, creeds and genders. I can understand why atheism is appealing to some people!TheisticEvolutionist
September 26, 2013
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Jerry:
You are describing a very common biological process which few will disagree with. The question is what new information does it create?
It depends entirely on how you are defining "information".
The mixing of the various genomes will produce a new genome which statistically is unlike any before it. So that is definitely new but is the gene pool substantively changed?
If the mixing produces a more fertile adult, then yes, the gene pool will change. It must, because that fertile adult will spread that new mix to her offspring and they to theirs.
Are there examples of this process creating new complex capabilities or is it just a little variation for the new gene pool?
Why should there be any limit to the variation? If new variants are being generated all the time, and some of those are beneficial, why shouldn't the gene pool keep moving towards an optimum?
What is necessary is for new genome coding regions to arise and here the layman’s idea of random applies.
New genes are rare, and new coding genes even rarer, but they do happen. What is far more common are variants on existing genes.
I have not seen anyone suggest otherwise. There is no process that monitors what is in these regions of the genome so I would assume “random” is applicable. If it is not random, then what determines what gets accepted and what doesn’t. Always willing to learn.
Well some regions of the genome are more subject to variation than others - an IDist might argue that this is by design, while a Shapiro-ist might argue (I would) that if some regions are particularly fertile ground for adaptive variations, then populations with genomes in which this region is prone to variation will tend to be more robust in the face of environmental change, and therefore survive when others go extinct. In other words, the Darwinian mechanism may well (and it's hard to see why it wouldn't) above the level of the populations, as well as at the level of the population. But there's still lots we don't know. What intrigues me is just how powerful the Darwinian mechanism is as a creative force. Sure, it's possible that a creator was necessary to kickstart the thing (though I don't see any particularly good reason to assume so) but once going, its powers are IMO awesome, even in the very limited models we can build in silico. Anyway, I really appreciate this conversation, jerry, thanks! PS – I have never seen your recombination argument used for the origin of new genes other than it just provides a new random sequence in the genome which may be of potential use. Then we are into traditional probabilities. If not, why not?Elizabeth B Liddle
September 26, 2013
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There you go, KF - niwrad just said evolution is a "hoax" - are you going to suppress his post? Or do you agree with me that he is entitled to his view? Or will you slide some magic razor between an ID proponent who calls evolution a "hoax" and an "evolutionists" who calls ID a "fraud"? [EL, your continued enabling behaviour is revealing. I suggest that in future, instead of projecting words and thoughts unto me that do not belong, you consider that there is something seriously wrong with papering over a declaration that millions are enemies of humanity in a context of slanders and grotesque conspiracy myths taken as fact by suggesting that such defamatory hate speech and incitement fall under freedom of expression. KF] Think about it.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 26, 2013
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Because I don't know the context, KF. And I'm not busting anyone's career. What I see is you spinning conspiracies and in the same breath accusing people on my blog from spinning conspiracies. That is hypocrisy, KF, though I think, to be fair, the problem is that you simply cannot see it. As for a "principled objection to" homosexuality, that cuts no ice with me. Racists have "principled objections" too - doesn't make it right. [--> EL, you just compared objection to a pattern of behaviour to an obvious pattern of visible markers which has no behavioural referent, using one of the secular equivalents of blasphemy in our day, which takes on grim colour from the pattern of enabling at your blog including deeming millions enemies of humanity. It is obvious that you have paid no attention to the distinction. I suggest again that you read here, on seeing another side to the now heavily promoted presumption that homosexual behaviour is genetically instamped and unalterable. But more than this, I spoke to an ideological twisting of key institutions in our civilisation [including law], by speaking of an ISM. The matters raised here, here, here, here and here should help underscore why I did so. But, again, I now expect no responsiveness or compunction on your part. I simply warn you that the attempt to suggest that principled moral objections to and social concerns over homosexualisation of our civilisation is to be equated to racism (and earlier you hosted and enabled similar remarks targetting me and equating such objections to the conduct of Nazis so we all know the Orwellian Doublespeak codes that lie beneath your invidious comparison to racism . . . ) bespeaks an underlying extremism and hostility beneath the genteel facade on your part that reminds me all too uncomfortably of the genteel side of plantation society. I think you need to take a serious pause and do some serious rethinking. KF] Homosexual people have been murdered for who they are, just as black people have been murdered for who they are. [--> And no one has expressed or implied approval for either; and as an educated person you full well know that principled objection implies that the principles are moral. There is no moral justification for racial prejudice. There are serious moral questions attaching to promotion of unnatural sexual acts and habitual behaviour on same, and on the manipulation of marriage and family in our civilisation. The leap from principled objection to ideology to speaking of murder directly compared to murder of people because of skin colour is an outrage. The implied ad hominem laced strawman underscores why it is necessary to highlight your hosting of a blog in which millions have been unjustifiably labelled enemies of humanity in a context of slanders and conspiracy spinning taken as fact. KF] The principle used makes no odds. If that kind of thing is going to be ended, people have to be free to speak out. [--> Freedom of speech is not an excuse for promotion of slander or hate. Nor does it excuse the sort of subtle smearing by invidious association you just indulged, continuing a dangerous pattern that has been there for months. KF]Elizabeth B Liddle
September 26, 2013
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I find evolutionists' arguments based on accusations of imposing theocracy in the US and US courts ruling that "ID is not science" and ID that would ruin student's education and bla bla... pretty boring. [--> Niw, this is Orwellian Doublespeak for implying that ID thinkers = Creationists = Right wing theocratic fascists = Nazis intent on totalitarianism. Hence the assertions of grotesque conspiracy stories taken as fact, and the deeming of millions as enemies of humanity without a peep of protest. Such are not something to be taken lightly, especially if one reckons with the mirror psychology of projection. KF] Personally, as IDer, I am interested to impose theocracy in the US as I am interested to create an aquafarm on Saturn. Moreover I am not US citizen, then one hundred US court rulings about ID-is-not-science would count zero, for me. What I know is that evolution is not a theory of similarities, rather a theory about RM+NS mechanisms transforming ameba into man. It is useless that here Darwin's people continue to speak about similarities. Similarities are pretty much explainable by common design too. The problem is that the proposed naturalistic mechanisms don't work, cannot work, will never work. Evolution is an atomic hoax. That's all. [Niw, I strongly suggest that in future you moderate language. It is appropriate to discuss that there are serious issues of a priori materialism imposed on science and that this raises issues of ideological blindness and institutionalised error enforced in some cases by seriously questionable tactics. But hoax implies widespread deliberate fraud. Unless you can provide evidence of such calculation, refrain from such. KF]niwrad
September 26, 2013
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EL, why don't you give the first context, where AF OM and others were involved in an attempt to portray principled objection to or questioning of homosexualisation of our civilisation as equivalent to nazism? And why don't you give the context of the rebuke of the White Rose movement martyrs to the people of Germany? In the onward context that the subject on the table included career busting and worse, already aspects of a kulturkampf. Then also, try to understand what it means when we see ideologues spinning grotesque conspiracy narratives portraying those they disagree with -- us -- as "enemies of humanity," misanthropes, with all of that onward connexion to Robespierre and Nero's attacks on Christians? As in, big red flag. and again you try to turn about the matter and blame the victim, then wonder why we point out that this is enabling -- in your case literally hosting -- slander and hate fests. Again and again you try to suggest that "a nuh nutten" or that you are all innocent and unjustifiably under challenge for hosting "dialogue" and refusing to "censor," in the face of clear evidence of what is going on -- remember what is on the table is your hosting of slander leading to declaration that we are enemies of humanity. You can take it to the bank that we are seeing just what is going on. KFkairosfocus
September 26, 2013
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Nothing on that site rises to any higher level of "hate" than is frequently posted by you, and others, on this site, and none to the level of legally defined "hate speech" or "slander" under UK law. There is no allegation of legal fraud. As for "hate-stirring conspiracy narratives", just read any one of the posts you have addressed to me over the past few months if you want to know what a "hate-stirring conspiracy narrative" looks like. Or to Jerad, even, who does not even post on my blog and who I have never met in my life except online here. Please, kairosfocus, for once, just look in the mirror.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 26, 2013
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Not merely over the top, especially when placed in the context of a grotesque conspiracy narrative taken as fact by the circle of both original poster and commenters. This is a culture of hate and slander; including an accusation of fraud — not error, fraud; an assertion that was taken as if it were “of course” true, there is not a peep of protest.
There is an issue of fact. There has been an attempt by groups of politically and religiously motivated people to get "Intelligent Design" inserted into school science curricula in the US. ID is not science and there is nothing scientific to teach. There was a clear court decision that rejected ID as science. To claim that there is a scientific core to ID that can be taught as science can only be ascribed to ignorance or fraud.
That sirs, includes me by implication and I ent no fraud and the false accusation of fraud is a mortal insult. This is slander plain and out.
I don't accuse you of fraud as the possibility exists that you genuinely think that ID has scientific merit. I doubt (and am prepared to be corrected) that anyone at TSZ has accused you of fraud. Frankly, I don't think anyone considers you important in promoting ID in the US. Montserrat is not exactly yhe centre of the World.
It is high time that what has been going on is faced and corrected.
If a US court considers a whole raft of evidence, including testimony from Michael Behe and concludes that ID is not science, then I don't think a charge of slander against those of us who think the court's conclusion was sound is appropriate.Alan Fox
September 26, 2013
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EL: Slander and hate speech, which is what I have addressed are not within the ambit of free speech. At legal level they rise to tort, or defamation. In political discourse they lay the basis for the sort of Kulturkampf that sullied the career of Bismark and set up latent hostilities that I shudder to think of where they went in 1939. There is no excuse for harbouring slander, hate-stirring conspiracy narratives and the sort of post where millions of people are declared to be "enemies of humanity." Not to mention, unjustified accusations of fraud. and so forth. There is just no excuse for what has been done and for the shoot the messenger attitude that has prevailed over days and days. KFkairosfocus
September 26, 2013
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Elizabeth, You are describing a very common biological process which few will disagree with. The question is what new information does it create? The mixing of the various genomes will produce a new genome which statistically is unlike any before it. So that is definitely new but is the gene pool substantively changed? Are there examples of this process creating new complex capabilities or is it just a little variation for the new gene pool? What is necessary is for new genome coding regions to arise and here the layman's idea of random applies. I have not seen anyone suggest otherwise. There is no process that monitors what is in these regions of the genome so I would assume "random" is applicable. If it is not random, then what determines what gets accepted and what doesn't. Always willing to learn. PS - I have never seen your recombination argument used for the origin of new genes other than it just provides a new random sequence in the genome which may be of potential use. Then we are into traditional probabilities. If not, why not?jerry
September 26, 2013
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AF; Not merely over the top, especially when placed in the context of a grotesque conspiracy narrative taken as fact by the circle of both original poster and commenters. This is a culture of hate and slander; including an accusation of fraud -- not error, fraud; an assertion that was taken as if it were "of course" true, there is not a peep of protest. That sirs, includes me by implication and I ent no fraud and the false accusation of fraud is a mortal insult. This is slander plain and out. It is high time that what has been going on is faced and corrected. KFkairosfocus
September 26, 2013
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jerry: the problem here is with the word "random", which tends to mean something different in layman's language than in scientific language (where it still has more than one meaning), as I'm sure you aware! But here's a go in layman's language anyway. When DNA is copied, the copy is never identical to the original. However, very similar copies are much more likely than very different copies. However, when sperm and egg cells are formed, which only contain one set of chromosomes instead of two, there is a systematic "shuffling" of the chromosomes so that my eggs each contain a bit from my mother and a bit from my father, so that my son will have assorted bits from all four of his grandparents, not just from two. This also means that new sequences appear as the mix'n'match process takes place. Again this process isn't "random" in one sense - there are some recombinations that are far more likely than others - but as far as we know it is "random" in the sense that there is no process by which a combination that the eventual offspring will find useful is more likely than a combination that it won't. And of course the chances of the offspring reproducing is partly "chance" in the sense that even if he has a wonderful set of DNA sequences he may simply not meet Ms Right, or Ms Right may turn out to be infertile. So the "natural selection" part also has a "chance" or "random" in that sense element. But the end result, statistically, is that any sequence that results in an adult with a better-than-average chance of breeding successfully is going, by definition, to become more common in the population than one that results in a worse-than-average chance. So that part isn't "chance" in the sense of "one thing is as likely as another" - a "more-fit" adults are very much more likely than a "less-fit" adults, where "fit" means: "has a good chance of breeding successfully in the current environment. And if a slightly-better-mousetrap increases those chances, than sequences that contributes to a slightly-better-mousetrap will become more common, as will slightly-better-mousetraps.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 26, 2013
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Me too. And I find it extraordinary that KF can, on the one hand, talk about you, and me, as "enablers" comparable to the Germans who had to be "marched round the camps" to see what their enabling had done, and then single out as "slander", davehooke's remark about the "obliviousness" of an "honest creationist" being "no excuse for assisting the enemies of humanity". Both remarks are completely over the top. But for KF as the author of one to object to davehooke's comment is reveals a lack of self-awareness of the most acute kind. Be that as it may, I will no more take down that thread than I will ask Barry to censor KF's stream of conspiracy theories about the "enablers" and "fronts" for shadowy organisations he seems to think are out to recreate some Marxist dystopia. He has right of reply at my blog, and if he reads the comments carefully will note many dissenting comments. Indeed, I dissented myself. But like you, Alan, I am much more worried about the control of what is said, than I am about what is said. Censorship is the first step to authoritarianism, as I'm sure KF will agree. I will not censor discussion on my blog.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 26, 2013
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...the enemies of humanity... A bit over the top, perhaps. The distinction is made between leaders and followers in a political movement. Maybe the author should have thought to mention the option of having things brought to the followers' attention by marching them... Sorry, couldn't resist. I apologise for not taking things seriously as the issue of what should be taught as science to American kids has only an indirect (so far at least) effect on my life. On the other hand, I fully appreciate how people can feel threatened under the pressure of fundamentalist Christian organisations that wish to undermine settled science teaching. You seem only too eager to control what others see and do. I find that more worrying than the sometimes intemperate language that is widespread on the internet.Alan Fox
September 26, 2013
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Jerad, I apologize for the late response. "Undirected assumes no unknown, undefined causes/agents. Directed, at this point, does assume an unknown and undefined agent...." "Undirected" assumes that it was undirected. This is why I asked why you don't simply say "I don't know." You don't know if it's undirected. Therefore, "I don't know" is the default here. You're obviously inserting your own metaphysical beliefs into the equation in order to prove your metaphysical beliefs. ".....Why would you pick a model with an unknown, undefined, undetected agent? You don’t know what it’s capable of. You don’t know when it was around. You don’t know if its still around....." I haven't picked any model. I hold to allowing evidence to speak for itself. If it shows evidence of being undirected, I'm perfectly willing to allow that. ".....Undirected works fine. We don’t need to invoke something we don’t know anything about." Undirected works find until we discover that it it's directed. We don't need to invoke anything to get there.CannuckianYankee
September 26, 2013
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6) Nobody has proposed that complicated biological systems form by purely random combination. Correct?
As far as I know the process is random. Are certain nucleotides more susceptible to mutation than others? Do you have information that it is not? And if you do then what is the probability distribution of biological formation especially changes in the genome for the coding of new proteins.
I suspect you may have misunderstood R0bb's point which was referring to the way CSI and its variations are calculated. An example would be saying the chance of a 100 residue protein of being found is 1 in 100 raised to the 20th power. This assumes that this particular protein it completely unique in function and is the only possible protein that could be used and that the assembly is "tornado-in-a-junkyard" rather than what is actually postulated; incremental steps. But ToE starts with a viable self-sustaining replicator and variation and selection will stumble across other proteins that may be only slightly worse, similar or better in a particular function (or indeed a duplication can allow a new function to be stumbled upon). So the whole premise of "one in a gadzillion" is flawed. I think strawman is the word in vogue.Alan Fox
September 26, 2013
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