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Function, the evolution-free gospel of ENCODE

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There is no better title for this post than the very title some Darwinists chose for themselves:

On the immortality of television sets: “function” in the human genome according to the evolution-free gospel of ENCODE

Darwinists are still struggling to come to terms with the idea, from the ENCODE project, that 80% of the genome is functional. Whatever Dawkins now says, according to their model, only about 10% should be subject to natural selection, leaving 70% unexplained. This cannot be!

Apparently, ENCODE are to be criticised for using an ‘evolution-free’ definition of function. Yep, you heard that right. You thought that function was function was function, but oh no, you must use a evolution-y definition or you will not get the ‘correct’ evolution-y answer. It seems awfully like you need to presuppose Darwinism or you will not find Darwinism. Can that be right?

The excuse for this is some interesting Darwinian philosophy (or do I mean sophistry? – make up your mind below): the authors believe that function means nothing (is purely subjective) unless it is selected for. For example, the heart causes the pericardium (the membrane around the heart) to not collapse by filling space, so we could call that a function, but it is selected for pumping blood.

Well, yes, that’s an interesting point, and that’s where it ends for a Darwinist because Darwinists resist the possibility of purpose. But it is nonsense to an engineer. An engineer would not make the mistake of seeing the pericardium as more important than the heart. A broken watch may still contain many functional components even if overall it does nothing. A TV switched off is still a TV even if it never functions. Is that subjective?

It depends what you mean by subjective. If your only ultimate reference frame is physics (and biology as a derivative of physics), then of course all intelligent agents are in fact subjective! For much of what we know, never mind religion and ethics, even in something solid like the definition of a motor, there is no way of translating it into physical equations (you could describe an instance of a motor but that would not capture all possible motors or what ‘motorness’ is – physics makes motors work but it doesn’t know what they are). However, what if all intelligent agents shared that ‘subjective’ knowledge? Then it isn’t really subjective anymore is it? At very least, a being that knows what a motor is, or that a bacterial flagellum is a motor, is more intelligent than one that does not. When we say there is an intelligence out there, we mean there must be a being like us in this respect. A being who wouldn’t be so stupid as to think that the heart was put in to hold up the pericardium. We might not be able to explain why that is stupid, but that doesn’t stop it from being objectively stupid. See my point? Darwinians effectively deny intelligence full stop, writing it off as subjectivity.

Amongst other things the ENCODE authors are lambasted for not distinguishing between ‘Junk DNA’ and ‘Garbage DNA’. No seriously, ‘junk’ now means stuff that is functional, but not used very often, but could be used, like stuff in your attic is ‘junk’. It is different from ‘garbage’, which is the stuff that you would put straight in the bin. ‘junk’ is now a rather misleading word for ‘functional’. So our genome is full of ‘junk’ that is useful and functional, but to a Darwinian it does not count until it starts getting used so that natural selection can get the credit. How convenient! The possibility of design is sidestepped by careful choice of language. Welcome to 1984! A better word might be ‘archived’ rather than ‘junk’.

This article tells us a lot about what is wrong with the whole project. The way to find out if the genome is functional or not, is to look directly for actual function. No presuppositions, just objectivity. But they criticise the attempts of ENCODE to do that. Instead these guys are focussing on searching for indirect evidence of natural selection, with models replete with assumptions and complexities, all presupposing that Darwinism is true. If the Darwinist approach was followed (thankfully many scientists ignore it!) the simple question “functional or not?” could potentially get buried for decades more, under the continuing assumption that most is not. A few more valuable decades in which Darwinists tell us not to bother go looking for function, so slowing down scientific progress.

I, and many of us, hold to an ID worldview firstly and most securely because of what we know about prebiotic chemistry and thus the origin of the first life form. Based on that, because I know there has been a designer involved, I think probably a lot of ‘junk’ will turn out to be ‘brought down from the attic’ at various stages of an organisms life, especially in the developing stages. Time will tell.

Scientific means finding out what is actually there. ENCODE are to be praised for doing that. Darwinism has always been about telling creation myths from the point of view of naturalism (roughly, physics only), and shoehorning every fact into the story. ENCODE are now receiving scorn because they did not wait for the Darwinian imprimatur. Intelligent Design people and creationists (in fact everyone who is not a Darwinist) should take courage from this, jump in and start driving forward ordinary mainstream science, but just make sure they sidestep the attempts to sign them up to that cult.

Comments
'most messy things are complex.' You don't call something that's integrated and purposeful, and thus, clearly been designed, 'messy', WD400. Well, rational people don't.Axel
August 5, 2013
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Clarification: Instead of assuming evolution is creative or has been in the past, evolutionary biologists, including the ID sort, should ask the question, 'Is evolution creative in practice now?' Does it produce new designs? Does it increase information* content? Or does it, in fact, as seems to be the case, exclusively use old designs and existing information? * Information can be defined rigorously in principle: Information required for a function F is -log(P(F)) http://www.tbiomed.com/content/4/1/47andyjones
March 8, 2013
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@wd400 You are misrepresenting what a number of us are saying, and thus not helping. To most people, at the popular level, Darwinism means a natural theory of evolution, with natural selection as the main driver of creation. Now, of course, we all know that natural selection doesnt actually create anything; it only selects from options available. Even in Darwinism, variants are generated by chance, whether one-step mutations or a process of genetic drift and 'neutral evolution', so there is not really a very big distinction. As for the difference between Darwinism and evolutionary biology: if evolutionary biology *assumes* that evolution is creative and mimics design, then it is not scientific, but that is what Darwinists (in the traditional sense of the word) do. I did not say that less than 80% of the genome is functional. Indeed it may be more. We dont know exactly, but the indications we have are, currently, roughly 80%.andyjones
March 8, 2013
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Yeah, I've read Kimura, and I even understand it, which is why I don't called NT "Darwinism". Of course most biologists working in relevant fields know about Kimura's load arguments, that's why no one (apart from certain molecular biologists...) think every polymorphism is the result of Darwinian selection. The paper I cited above limits the true configuration space of putative “neutral evolution”—which, as you mention, would work for most bacterial populations simply because of their growth rate—and, so, makes invoking NT for sexually reproducing organisms ring even more hollow. You didn't actually cite a paper, you referred to a commonly known fact about molecular evolution. But, why would "invoking NT for sexually reproducing organisms" ring hollow? A polymorohism will act as if netural if 2NeS < 1, and Ne is usually much smaller in sexually reducing species that bacteria, thus more nearly-neutral mutations behave as if they were neutral.wd400
February 26, 2013
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wd400: I think that’ the 12,000th time someone here has conflate neutral theory with Darwinism, which, as I keep trying to point out, our opposed to each other! Perhaps I should stop bothering. Well I've read Kimura's book. I wonder if you have. And I know that Kimura proposed the Neutral Theory because positive selection, and the mutational load associated with it, does not accord with the very high level of polymorphisms found in the genome. (Were you aware of that? And, if not, why not? Because evol biol/Darwinists don't talk about such things? If that's the case, it's quite telling.) It's not us here at UD who don't understand the difference, it's the evolutionary biologists who don't seem to get it. IOW, we, here at UD, have to deal with people who, at one and the same time, espouse Darwinism and purport the neutral theory to help explain it. You cited a reference to CNE. Maybe you can argue it's some kind of hybrid, but it's like saying if you put two theories that both have trouble explaining macroevolution, all the problems go away when you combine them. You'll have a hard time selling that one here. The paper I cited above limits the true configuration space of putative "neutral evolution"---which, as you mention, would work for most bacterial populations simply because of their growth rate---and, so, makes invoking NT for sexually reproducing organisms ring even more hollow.PaV
February 26, 2013
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timothya:
Darwin’s Origin of Species provides an excellent introduction to how the external environment selects for or against particular phenotypes in a breeding population.
Except the environment does NOT select. And whatever is good enough survives. But anyway I asked for a reference for the prediction Alan stated. Do you have one?Joe
February 26, 2013
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I think that’ the 12,000th time someone here has conflate neutral theory with Darwinism, which, as I keep trying to point out, our opposed to each other! Perhaps I should stop bothering.
Darwinism swallowed up neutral theory like a proto-eukaryote.Mung
February 26, 2013
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There's been papers on that since the 1960s. Works in bacteria where populations are large and small selective effects can have an influence, not likely relevant to smaller populations. I think that' the 12,000th time someone here has conflate neutral theory with Darwinism, which, as I keep trying to point out, our opposed to each other! Perhaps I should stop bothering.wd400
February 25, 2013
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wd400: Since, as far as I’m aware, every evolutionary biologist thinks natural selection can be constructive (and a few, like me, don’t think you even need selection eg this paper) you could maybe say “evolutionary biology”. There is a paper out that shows that synonymous substitutions are involved in the determining the rate at which proteins are transcribed. This puts further restrictions on the genome, and means that "neutral" mutations are perhaps rarer than thought. It looks like Darwinism is being squeezed at both ends. Neutral 'evolution', certainly, is becoming less and less tenable. What options are left? Intelligent design, perhaps??PaV
February 25, 2013
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Michael Behe on the theory of constructive neutral evolution - February 2012 Excerpt: In brief, the idea is that neutral interactions evolve serendipitously in the cell, spread in a population by drift, get folded into a system, and then can’t be removed because their tentacles are too interconnected. It would be kind of like trying to circumvent the associate director of licensing delays in the Department of Motor Vehicles — can’t be done. The authors think the evolution of such a complex is well beyond the powers of positive natural selection: “Even Darwin might be reluctant to advance a claim that eukaryotic spliceosomal introns remove themselves more efficiently or accurately from mRNAs than did their self-splicing group II antecedents, or that they achieved this by ‘numerous, successive, slight modifications’ each driven by selection to this end.” (1) I don’t mean to be unkind, but I think that the idea seems reasonable only to the extent that it is vague and undeveloped; when examined critically it quickly loses plausibility. The first thing to note about the paper is that it contains absolutely no calculations to support the feasibility of the model. This is inexcusable. - Michael Behe https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/michael-behe-on-the-theory-of-constructive-neutral-evolution/bornagain77
February 25, 2013
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wd400 snips: "It’s good to see you are at least admitting the genome isn’t 80% functional." And yet,,, Shoddy Engineering or Intelligent Design? Case of the Mouse's Eye - April 2009 Excerpt: -- The (entire) nuclear genome is thus transformed into an optical device that is designed to assist in the capturing of photons. This chromatin-based convex (focusing) lens is so well constructed that it still works when lattices of rod cells are made to be disordered. Normal cell nuclei actually scatter light. -- So the next time someone tells you that it “strains credulity” to think that more than a few pieces of “junk DNA” could be functional in the cell - remind them of the rod cell nuclei of the humble mouse. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/04/shoddy_engineering_or_intellig.html Demolishing Junk DNA as an icon of evolution - July 2011 Excerpt: "The genome is hierarchical, and it functions at three levels: the DNA molecule itself; the DNA-RNA-protein complex that makes up chromatin; and the three-dimensional arrangement of chromosomes in the nucleus. At all three of these levels, DNA can function in ways that are independent of its exact nucleotide sequence." (p.93) [. . .] "At the third level, the position of the chromosome inside the nucleus is important for gene regulation. In most cells, the gene-rich portions of chromosomes tend to be concentrated near the center of the nucleus, and a gene can be inactivated by artificially moving it to the periphery. In some cases, however, the pattern is inverted: rod cells in the retinas of nocturnal mammals contain nuclei in which the non-protein-coding parts of chromosomes are concentrated near the center of the nucleus, where they form a liquid crystal that serves to focus dim rays of light." (p.94-5) (The Myth of Junk DNA) http://www.arn.org/blogs/index.php/literature/2011/07/15/demolishing_junk_dna_as_an_icon_of_evolu Jonathan Wells on Darwinism, Science, and Junk DNA - November 2011 Excerpt: Mice without “junk” DNA. In 2004, Edward Rubin?] and a team of scientists at Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory in California reported that they had engineered mice missing over a million base pairs of non-protein-coding (“junk”) DNA—about 1% of the mouse genome—and that they could “see no effect in them.” But molecular biologist Barbara Knowles (who reported the same month that other regions of non-protein-coding mouse DNA were functional) cautioned that the Lawrence Berkeley study didn’t prove that non-protein-coding DNA has no function. “Those mice were alive, that’s what we know about them,” she said. “We don’t know if they have abnormalities that we don’t test for.”And University of California biomolecular engineer David Haussler? said that the deleted non-protein-coding DNA could have effects that the study missed. “Survival in the laboratory for a generation or two is not the same as successful competition in the wild for millions of years,” he argued. In 2010, Rubin was part of another team of scientists that engineered mice missing a 58,000-base stretch of so-called “junk” DNA. The team found that the DNA-deficient mice appeared normal until they (along with a control group of normal mice) were fed a high-fat, high-cholesterol diet for 20 weeks. By the end of the study, a substantially higher proportion of the DNA-deficient mice had died from heart disease. Clearly, removing so-called “junk” DNA can have effects that appear only later or under other circumstances. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/jonathan-wells-on-darwinism-science-and-junk-dna/bornagain77
February 25, 2013
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Since, as far as I'm aware, every evolutionary biologist thinks natural selection can be constructive (and a few, like me, don't think you even need selection eg this paper) you could maybe say "evolutionary biology". It's good to see you are at least admitting the genome isn't 80% functional.wd400
February 25, 2013
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@wd400 Again, transcription is *indicative* of function, so it does change things.andyjones
February 25, 2013
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@wd400 Let me try again. Darwinism and evolutionary biology are different things. I am not using it to refer to evolutionary biology, which contains much stuff that is valid scientific methodology, but to an *ideology* which says that natural selection can create substantial new function. If you want to split hairs about, for example, neutral theories of evolution not being Darwinian, then I will let you have that pedantic point, but neutral evolution is about chance, which is pre-Darwinian, hardly progress, and I dont think anyone is going to be misled by this terminology. If you think my terminology sounds to 'creationist', then how would you word it?andyjones
February 25, 2013
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wd400: "and only a very small number beneficial" But alas, even the beneficial mutations that Darwinists are dependent on to make their atheistic theory seem plausible are only 'beneficial' in a limited context: “The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain - Michael Behe - December 2010 Excerpt: In its most recent issue The Quarterly Review of Biology has published a review by myself of laboratory evolution experiments of microbes going back four decades.,,, The gist of the paper is that so far the overwhelming number of adaptive (that is, helpful) mutations seen in laboratory evolution experiments are either loss or modification of function. Of course we had already known that the great majority of mutations that have a visible effect on an organism are deleterious. Now, surprisingly, it seems that even the great majority of helpful mutations degrade the genome to a greater or lesser extent.,,, I dub it “The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain. http://behe.uncommondescent.com/2010/12/the-first-rule-of-adaptive-evolution/ Michael Behe's Blog - October 2007 Excerpt: As I showed for mutations that help in the human fight against malaria, many beneficial mutations actually are the result of breaking or degrading a gene. Since there are so many ways to break or degrade a gene, those sorts of beneficial mutations can happen relatively quickly. For example, there are hundreds of different mutations that degrade an enzyme abbreviated G6PD, which actually confers some resistance to malaria. Those certainly are beneficial in the circumstances. The big problem for evolution, however, is not to degrade genes (Darwinian random mutations can do that very well!) but to make the coherent, constructive changes needed to build new systems. http://behe.uncommondescent.com/page/6/ Blink and You'll Miss It: Jerry Coyne Turns His Attention to the "Engine of Evolution" (Lenski, Lynch, Hall, Antibiotic resistance, Insecticide resistance) - December 7, 2012 http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/12/blink_and_youll2067161.html Richard Lenski’s Long-Term Evolution Experiments with E. coli and the Origin of New Biological Information Excerpt: Even if there were several possible pathways by which to construct a gain-of-FCT mutation, or several possible kinds of adaptive gain-of-FCT features, the rate of appearance of an adaptive mutation that would arise from the diminishment or elimination of the activity of a protein is expected to be 100-1000 times the rate of appearance of an adaptive mutation that requires specific changes to a gene. (Michael J. Behe, “Experimental Evolution, Loss-of-Function Mutations and ‘The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution’,” Quarterly Review of Biology, Vol. 85(4) (December, 2010).) The sort of loss-of-function examples seen in the Lenski's LTEE (Long Term Evolution Experiment) will never show that natural selection can increase high CSI. To understand why, imagine the following hypothetical situation. Consider an imaginary order of insects, the Evolutionoptera. Let’s say there are 1 million species of Evolutionoptera, but ecologists find that the extinction rate among Evolutionoptera is 1000 species per millennium. The speciation rate (the rate at which new species arise) during the same period is 1 new species per 1000 years. At these rates, every thousand years 1000 species of Evolutionoptera will die off, while one new species will develop–a net loss of 999 species. If these processes continue, in 1,000,001 years there will be no species of Evolutionoptera left on earth. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/09/richard_lenskis_long_term_evol051051.html Mutations : when benefits level off - June 2011 - (Lenski's e-coli after 50,000 generations) Excerpt: After having identified the first five beneficial mutations combined successively and spontaneously in the bacterial population, the scientists generated, from the ancestral bacterial strain, 32 mutant strains exhibiting all of the possible combinations of each of these five mutations. They then noted that the benefit linked to the simultaneous presence of five mutations was less than the sum of the individual benefits conferred by each mutation individually. http://www2.cnrs.fr/en/1867.htm?theme1=7 New Research on Epistatic Interactions Shows "Overwhelmingly Negative" Fitness Costs and Limits to Evolution - Casey Luskin June 8, 2011 Excerpt: In essence, these studies found that there is a fitness cost to becoming more fit. As mutations increase, bacteria faced barriers to the amount they could continue to evolve. If this kind of evidence doesn't run counter to claims that neo-Darwinian evolution can evolve fundamentally new types of organisms and produce the astonishing diversity we observe in life, what does? http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/06/new_research_on_epistatic_inte047151.htmlbornagain77
February 25, 2013
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Joe posted this:
Alan Fox:
Yet the truth is that evolutionary theory predicts that selection acts on the phenotype, the whole body.
Reference please. We can’t just take your word for it.
Darwin's Origin of Species provides an excellent introduction to how the external environment selects for or against particular phenotypes in a breeding population. Combine that with any scientific treatment of Mendelian genetics and you will understand how the external environment, by acting on the bodies of organisms, causes differential reproduction rates between body types and subsequent changes in the population's gene allele frequency. I don't know of any evolutionary biologists who believe that natural selection acts directly on gene structures, but I'm prepared to be surprised.timothya
February 25, 2013
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BA, I don't read the link the link-spam, if you have something meaningful to say do so in your own words. As for Avise's comments - no one is arguing there are no bad mutations, just that Sanford erects a lot of silly ideas ontop of the observation that mutation is a net-negative (i.e. most mutations are neutral, a few bad and only a very small number benificial).wd400
February 24, 2013
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wd400, do you consider Avise's theological argument a scientific argument? Here, at about the 55:00 minute mark in the following video, Phillip Johnson sums up his, in my opinion, excellent lecture by noting that the refutation of his book, 'Darwin On Trial', in the Journal Nature, the most prestigious science journal in the world, was a theological argument about what God would and would not do and therefore Darwinism must be true, and the critique from Nature was not a refutation based on any substantiating scientific evidence for Darwinism that one would expect to be brought forth in such a prestigious venue to support such a, supposedly, well supported scientific theory: Darwinism On Trial (Phillip E. Johnson) – lecture video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwj9h9Zx6Mw In this following video Dr. William Lane Craig is surprised to find that evolutionary biologist Dr. Ayala uses theological argumentation in his book to support Darwinism and invites him to present evidence, any evidence at all, that Darwinism can do what he claims it can: Refuting The Myth Of 'Bad Design' vs. Intelligent Design - William Lane Craig - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIzdieauxZg In fact, it has been pointed out, by many people besides Dr. Craig, that the whole neo-Darwinian argument is, at its core beneath all the rhetoric, a theological argument: On the Vastness of the Universe Excerpt: Darwin’s objection to design inferences were theological. And in addition, Darwin overlooked many theological considerations in order to focus on the one. His one consideration was his assumption about what a god would or wouldn’t do. The considerations he overlooked are too numerous to mention here, but here’s a few:,,, https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/on-the-vastness-of-the-universe/comment-page-2/#comment-362918 Here are peer-reviewed papers which point out the fact that many arguments for Darwinian evolution turn out to be primarily theological arguments at their core: The role of theology in current evolutionary reasoning - Paul A. Nelson - Biology and Philosophy, 1996, Volume 11, Number 4, Pages 493-517 Excerpt: Evolutionists have long contended that the organic world falls short of what one might expect from an omnipotent and benevolent creator. Yet many of the same scientists who argue theologically for evolution are committed to the philosophical doctrine of methodological naturalism, which maintains that theology has no place in science. Furthermore, the arguments themselves are problematical, employing concepts that cannot perform the work required of them, or resting on unsupported conjectures about suboptimality. Evolutionary theorists should reconsider both the arguments and the influence of Darwinian theological metaphysics on their understanding of evolution. http://www.springerlink.com/content/n3n5415037038134/?MUD=MP Charles Darwin, Theologian: Major New Article on Darwin's Use of Theology in the Origin of Species - May 2011 http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/05/charles_darwin_theologian_majo046391.html The Descent of Darwin - Pastor Joe Boot - (The Theodicy of Darwinism) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKJqk7xF4-g “The strength of materialism is that it obviates the problem of evil altogether. God need not be reconciled with evil, because neither exists. Therefore the problem of evil is no problem at all.,,, And of course since there is no evil, the materialist must, ironically, not use evil to justify atheism. The problem of evil presupposes the existence of an objective evil-the very thing the materialist seems to deny. The argument (from Theodicy) that led to materialism is exhausted just when it is needed most. In other words, the problem of evil is only generated by the prior claims that evil exists. One cannot then conclude, with Dawkins, that there is ‘no evil and no good’ in the universe.,,, The fact that evolution’s acceptance hinges on a theological position would, for many, be enough to expel it from science. But evolution’s reliance on metaphysics is not its worst failing. Evolution’s real problem is not its metaphysics but its denial of its metaphysics.,,, Cornelius Hunter – Darwin’s God – pg. 154 & 159 http://www.amazon.com/Darwins-God-Evolution-Problem-Evil/dp/1587430118bornagain77
February 24, 2013
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wd400 you state:
Does Sanford’s (nutty) theory suggest there should be more or less junk DNA than mainstream science?
Nutty theory??? That's funny for you to say that because Avise uses the same data for overwhelmingly negative rate of mutations, that Sanford uses to support Genetic Entropy, to argue that Darwinism is correct because it is proof of 'non-Intelligent Design':
Inside the Human Genome: A Case for Non-Intelligent Design - Pg. 57 By John C. Avise Excerpt: "Another compilation of gene lesions responsible for inherited diseases is the web-based Human Gene Mutation Database (HGMD). Recent versions of HGMD describe more than 75,000 different disease causing mutations identified to date in Homo-sapiens." I went to the mutation database website cited by John Avise and found: HGMD®: Now celebrating our 100,000 mutation milestone! http://www.hgmd.org/
But note how Avise uses such a high rate of negative mutations as a Theological argument:
If, on the other hand, natural causation is denied, and a caring Intelligent Designer is to be held directly responsible for life’s imperfect features, then the theodicy challenge remains poignant. How could a Creator God have engineered such a deeply flawed biological world, right down to its most elemental molecular features? Unless we pretend that biological defects do not exist, we seem forced to conclude that any Intelligent Designer is either technically fallible, morally challenged, or both. Furthermore, if the intelligent designer is deemed to be the Abrahamic God (rather than a Martian, for example), then are we not guilty of blasphemy in ascribing to Him a direct hand in sponsoring the molecular genomic flaws that plague human health? [156] - John Avise - In his chapter on non intelligent design http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2012/06/evolution-professor-special-creation.html
Did it even cross John Avise's mind that the evidence, that he himself cited, is absolutely SCIENTIFICALLY crushing for Darwinism???
We Are All Mutants: First Direct Whole-Genome Measure of Human Mutation Predicts 60 New Mutations in Each of Us - June 2011 http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110613012758.htm *3 new mutations every time a cell divides in your body * Average cell of 15 year old has up to 6000 mutations *Average cell of 60 year old has 40,000 mutations Reproductive cells are 'designed' so that, early on in development, they are 'set aside' and thus they do not accumulate mutations as the rest of the cells of our bodies do. Regardless of this protective barrier against the accumulation of slightly detrimental mutations still we find that,,, *60-175 mutations are passed on to each new generation. - Dr. John Sanford
Interestingly, this ‘slightly detrimental’ mutation rate of 100 to 200, or even 60, per generation is far greater than what even evolutionists agree is an acceptable mutation rate since detrimental mutations will accumulate far faster than ‘selection’ can eliminate them in any given genome:
Beyond A 'Speed Limit' On Mutations, Species Risk Extinction Excerpt: Shakhnovich's group found that for most organisms, including viruses and bacteria, an organism's rate of genome mutation must stay below 6 mutations per genome per generation to prevent the accumulation of too many potentially lethal changes in genetic material. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071001172753.htm Human evolution or extinction - discussion on acceptable mutation rate per generation from population genetics (with clips from Dr. John Sanford) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aC_NyFZG7pM
wd400 it is really not a matter of how much 'junk' DNA ID predicts, all that really matters is that on evolution, because of such a overwhelmingly negative mutation rate' everything should be 100% junk if Darwinism were true!bornagain77
February 24, 2013
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When a darwinist gets sick, he sits down with his doctor, (like anyone else), who tells him which part of his body is not functioning, how it's not functioning, and what needs to be done to effect repair, to get it functioning "properly" again. The doctor will tell him how this component of his body should "normally function" And the explanation is often crystal clear. When he arrives home he has to struggle to remind himself it was all just a useful metaphor. There is no 'real': "repair, no "function", no "proper", no "normal". Just his 'preferences' (like staying alive and healthy). This is another example of how they can't live without constant contradicition, if they really think about their conditiones58
February 24, 2013
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BA, Does Sanford's (nutty) theory suggest there should be more or less junk DNA than mainstream science?wd400
February 24, 2013
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The insurmountable ‘princess and the pea’ problem is pointed out by Dr. John Sanford, at the 8:14 minute mark, of this following video,,, Genetic Entropy – Dr. John Sanford – Evolution vs. Reality – video http://vimeo.com/35088933 ,,,In which Dr. Sanford points out ‘selection’ acts at the coarse level of the entire organism and yet the vast majority of mutations have effects that are only ‘slightly detrimental’ and are far below the power of selection to remove from genomes before they spread throughout the population. Further notes on the princess and the pea paradox of natural selection: Evolution Vs Genetic Entropy – Andy McIntosh – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4028086/ The GS Principle (The Genetic Selection Principle) - Abel - 2009 Excerpt: The GS Principle, sometimes called “The 2nd Law of Biology,” states that selection must occur at the molecular/genetic level, not just at the fittest phenotypic/organismic level, to produce and explain life.,,, Natural selection cannot operate at the genetic level. http://www.bioscience.org/2009/v14/af/3426/fulltext.htm Natural Selection's Reach - Ann Gauger - February 12, 2013 Excerpt: What is the mutational reach of natural selection in general? It's very short. For bacteria, our work suggests the reach is only a few mutations at a time. That's not enough to get a genuinely new function for a protein, let alone a new pathway made up of a handful of proteins, or a metabolism made up of hundreds of proteins. For larger multicellular organisms like us, with slower generation times and smaller populations, the problem gets worse. Much worse. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/02/natural_selecti_1069121.html Using Computer Simulation to Understand Mutation Accumulation Dynamics and Genetic Load: Excerpt: We apply a biologically realistic forward-time population genetics program to study human mutation accumulation under a wide-range of circumstances.,, Our numerical simulations consistently show that deleterious mutations accumulate linearly across a large portion of the relevant parameter space. http://bioinformatics.cau.edu.cn/lecture/chinaproof.pdf MENDEL’S ACCOUNTANT: J. SANFORD†, J. BAUMGARDNER‡, W. BREWER§, P. GIBSON¶, AND W. REMINE http://mendelsaccount.sourceforge.net/bornagain77
February 24, 2013
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Alan Fox:
Yet the truth is that evolutionary theory predicts that selection acts on the phenotype, the whole body.
Reference please. We can't just take your word for it.
Prove us liars by finding a Darwinist who says selection acts on the genotype.
Only artificial selection acts, Alan. Perhaps sexual selection also acts.Joe
February 24, 2013
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Alan Fox:
Yet the truth is that evolutionary theory predicts that selection acts on the phenotype, the whole body. You’re very fond of calling people you disagree with liars, mung. Prove us liars by finding a Darwinist who says selection acts on the genotype.
Wow. That's a tough one! I didn't call timothya a liar. Maybe he really believes it. I would not be at all surprised to find that you, on the other hand, argued against the need for any genotype/phenotype distinction as a requirement for darwinian evolution. The relevant thread, however: UB Sets It Out Step-By-Step How quickly they forget.Mung
February 24, 2013
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as to the conclusion of evolution being derived from its presupposition,,, There are two definitions of Science in our Culture - Phillip E. Johnson - audio http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zK5sqd1SKXo#t=1596sbornagain77
February 24, 2013
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"It’s a conclusion, not a presupposition." But alas, in Darwinian fantasy land of science the conclusion of evolution is derived from its presupposition!
Excerpt: The fact of evolution assures us that the species arose spontaneously, but it doesn’t tell us how. That’s for the theory of evolution to figure out. This all makes sense to evolutionists because the fact of evolution does not come from science. - Cornelius Hunter http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2013/02/oops-evolution-forgot-about-eukaryotes.html
bornagain77
February 24, 2013
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The next evolutionary synthesis: Jonathan BL Bard (2011) Excerpt: We now know that there are at least 50 possible functions that DNA sequences can fulfill [8], that the networks for traits require many proteins and that they allow for considerable redundancy [9]. The reality is that the evolutionary synthesis says nothing about any of this; for all its claim of being grounded in DNA and mutation, it is actually a theory based on phenotypic traits. This is not to say that the evolutionary synthesis is wrong, but that it is inadequate – it is really only half a theory! http://www.biosignaling.com/content/pdf/1478-811X-9-30.pdfbornagain77
February 24, 2013
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Selection does not act on sequences, it acts on bodies.
Actually, it depends on which Darwinist you’re talking to on which day. It must be nice to have a theory that enables you talk out of both sides of your mouth.
Yet the truth is that evolutionary theory predicts that selection acts on the phenotype, the whole body. You're very fond of calling people you disagree with liars, mung. Prove us liars by finding a Darwinist who says selection acts on the genotype.Alan Fox
February 24, 2013
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timothya:
Selection does not act on sequences, it acts on bodies.
Actually, it depends on which Darwinist you're talking to on which day. It must be nice to have a theory that enables you talk out of both sides of your mouth.Mung
February 24, 2013
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It's a conclusion, not a presupposition. I don't doubt cells are complex, most messy things are complex.wd400
February 24, 2013
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