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UB Sets It Out Step-By-Step

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UD Editors:  No one has come close to refuting UB’s thesis after 129 comments.  We are moving this post to the top of the page to give the materialists another chance.

I take the following from an excellent comment UB made in a prior post.  UB lays out his argument step by step, precept by precept.  Then he arrives at a conclusion.  In order for his argument to be valid, the conclusion must follow from the premises.  In order for his argument to be sound, each of the premises must be true.

Now here is the challenge to our Darwinist friends.  If you disagree with UB’s conclusion, please demonstrate how his argument is either invalid (as a matter of logic the conclusion does not follow from the premises) or unsound (one or more of the premises are false).  Good luck (you’re going to need it).

Without further ado, here is UB’s argument:

1.  A representation is an arrangement of matter which evokes an effect within a system (e.g. written text, spoken words, pheromones, animal gestures, codes, sensory input, intracellular messengers, nucleotide sequences, etc, etc).

2.  It is not logically possible to transfer information (the form of a thing; a measured aspect, quality, or preference) in a material universe without using a representation instantiated in matter.

3.  If that is true, and it surely must be, then several other things must logically follow. If there is now an arrangement of matter which contains a representation of form as a consequence of its own material arrangement, then that arrangement must be necessarily arbitrary to the thing it represents. In other words, if one thing is to represent another thing within a system, then it must be separate from the thing it represents. And if it is separate from it, then it cannot be anything but materially arbitrary to it (i.e. they cannot be the same thing).

4.  If that is true, then the presence of that representation must present a material component to the system (which is reducible to physical law), while its arrangement presents an arbitrary component to the system (which is not reducible to physical law).

5.  If that is true, and again it surely must be, then there has to be something else which establishes the otherwise non-existent relationship between the representation and the effect it evokes within the system. In fact, this is the material basis of Francis Crick’s famous ‘adapter hypothesis’ in DNA, which lead to a revolution in the biological sciences. In a material universe, that something else must be a second arrangement of matter; coordinated to the first arrangement as well as to the effect it evokes.

6.  It then also follows that this second arrangement must produce its unambiguous function, not from the mere presence of the representation, but from its arrangement.  It is the arbitrary component of the representation which produces the function.

7.  And if those observations are true, then in order to actually transfer recorded information, two discrete arrangements of matter are inherently required by the process; and both of these objects must necessarily have a quality that extends beyond their mere material make-up. The first is a representation and the second is a protocol (a systematic, operational rule instantiated in matter) and together they function as a formal system. They are the irreducible complex core which is fundamentally required in order to transfer recorded information.

8.  During protein synthesis, a selected portion of DNA is first transcribed into mRNA, then matured and transported to the site of translation within the ribosome. This transcription process facilitates the input of information (the arbitrary component of the DNA sequence) into the system. The input of this arbitrary component functions to constrain the output, producing the polypeptides which demonstrate unambiguous function.

9.  From a causal standpoint, the arbitrary component of DNA is transcribed to mRNA, and those mRNA are then used to order tRNA molecules within the ribosome. Each stage of this transcription process is determined by the physical forces of pair bonding. Yet, which amino acid appears at the peptide binding site is not determined by pair bonding; it is determined  by the aaRS. In other words, which amino acid appears at the binding site is only evoked by the physical structure of the nucleic triplet, but is not determined by it. Instead, it is determined (in spatial and temporal isolation) by the physical structure of the aaRS. This is the point of translation; the point where the arbitrary component of the representation is allowed to evoke a response in a physically determined system – while preserving the arbitrary nature of the representation.

10.  This physical event, translation by a material protocol, as well as the transcription of a material representation, is ubiquitous in the transfer of recorded information.

CONCLUSION:  These two physical objects (the representation and protocol) along with the required preservation of the arbitrary component of the representation, and the production of unambiguous function from that arbitrary component, confirm that the transfer of recorded information in the genome is just like any other form of recorded information. It’s an arbitrary relationship instantiated in matter.

Comments
bumpMung
May 15, 2014
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Incomplete Nature begins by accepting what other theories try to deny: that, although mental contents do indeed lack these material-energetic properties, they are still entirely products of physical processes and have an unprecedented kind of causal power that is unlike anything that physics and chemistry alone have so far explained. Paradoxically, it is the intrinsic incompleteness of these semiotic and teleological phenomena that is the source of their unique form of physical influence in the world.
Mung
October 9, 2013
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I'm sure semiosis was predicted by Darwin, even, if Darwin is read correctly.Mung
October 9, 2013
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Mung, your #1410 and #1411 above are just too rich. Just think, it only took a couple of years and about 4000 comments over a dozen threads. Now its no big deal at all. The power of scientism is to assimilate facts and deny them in the same breath.Upright BiPed
October 7, 2013
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still unrefutedMung
October 7, 2013
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holaMung
August 19, 2013
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hola UBiped,Mr.Mung its been awhile since i've posted anywhere, I figure i'll try to post here again since it looks like KeithS and RBill are posting here again. I'm trudging through this post trying to catch up, interesting thus far. at the Diogenes matrix math part. D can't actually think this is a valid counter here.junkdnathewhite
August 16, 2013
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Still no recorded information to be found over at TSZ.Mung
July 21, 2013
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As they were setting the blog back up over at TSZ, one wonders whether they stopped to ponder the physical requirements for the transfer of recorded information. Probably not.Mung
March 10, 2013
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The emergence of the discipline of semiotics has encouraged us to see natural objects and entities as signs, pointing beyond themselves, representing and communicating themselves. - McGrath, Alister E. A Fine-Tuned Universe
Mung
February 26, 2013
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Mung, okie. I'se got my 10 lb sledge hammer and 1" thick sharpened stake ready, just in case. Tip can be fire-hardened if necessary. KFkairosfocus
February 12, 2013
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I don't think MG has been resurrected. I think that's just Joe living in the past. :)Mung
February 11, 2013
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Joe: You mean that the MG sock-puppet persona has been resurrected? Looks like we need to re-hammer the stake through the heart for it. KFkairosfocus
February 11, 2013
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mathgrrl:
I’m sure his “more formal” version will address every criticism raised here.
He only addresses VALID criticisms and no one there has posted any.
I’m personally looking forward to the answer to the question “Assuming your argument is sound, how exactly does it support ID?”
Why are you waiting, it has been answered. So we don't have any valid criticisms and to top it off we have another moron who can't even follow along.Joe
February 11, 2013
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Semiosis wins.Mung
February 10, 2013
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The concept of information is central both to genetics and evolutionary theory. - John Maynard Smith
Mung
February 2, 2013
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What lies at the heart of every living thing is not a fire, warm breath, nor a "spark of life". It is information, words, instructions... Think of a billion discrete digital characters... If you want to understand life think about digital technology. - Richard Dawkins
Mung
February 2, 2013
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It's a tasty and nutritious word salad!Mung
January 30, 2013
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HT: BA77
“In the last ten years, at least 20 different natural information codes were discovered in life, each operating to arbitrary conventions (not determined by law or physicality). Examples include protein address codes [Ber08B], acetylation codes [Kni06], RNA codes [Fai07], metabolic codes [Bru07], cytoskeleton codes [Gim08], histone codes [Jen01], and alternative splicing codes [Bar10]. Donald E. Johnson – Programming of Life – pg.51 – 2010
Mung
January 22, 2013
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The epigenome consists of chemical compounds that modify, or mark, the genome in a way that tells it what to do, where to do it and when to do it. The marks, which are not part of the DNA itself, can be passed on from cell to cell as cells divide, and from one generation to the next. - Epigenomics Fact Sheet
What natural law determines the placement of these compounds? What is the evidence that the placement of these compounds is completely random? Is there a middle ground between determined and random that could be called arbitrary?Mung
January 20, 2013
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... we have begun to glimpse the multilevel complexity found in the epigenome's storehouse of information. We can see that the living cell possesses vast riches of life-enabling codes, which go far beyond the spiral thread of DNA itself. Information, in a diversity of usable forms, is lodged in virtually every corner of the cell ... The mutual integration of these systems and layers of information is a marvel to behold. The Mysterious Epigenome: What Lies Beyond DNA
Mung
January 20, 2013
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Allan Miller:
Soooo … yes, semiosis is real. Consider it dealt with. Organisms make and receive ‘signs'
Mung
January 18, 2013
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Cubist@TSZ
As best I can tell, Mung, nobody hereabouts thinks this ‘semiosis’ thingie isn’t real.
lolMung
January 18, 2013
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Physics, Chemistry, Information. Are there yet higher levels waiting to be discovered? Will it have to wait until our own technology advances further so that we will have the language and concepts to understand what it is we are seeing?Mung
January 18, 2013
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Thank you for your charitable contribution serious123. You might have gathered from the introduction that the writing was not a formal presentation, but merely a paragraph lifted from a blog comment, which the owner of UD then numbered and presented here. The fact that it has withstood all takers for the past several months (in more than one iteration here and elsewhere) is satisfactory. I apologize for not achieving the higher standards you suggest. A more formal argument will be presented at a later date.Upright BiPed
January 15, 2013
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This is the same problem in biology that has led some biologists to move to multiverse as the odds are beyond insurmountable. However the argument is just so poorly written it almost seems like the writer is not a native english speaker. In order to write a convincing argument, careful attention must be paid to using precise language, yet simple formulations. Look at any of the most famous arguments by the greats and you'll see anyone can read them. The argument needs to be reduced to its common denominator--as it sits it is like 5+2-5+6-9+7-3+8-4+2-1 =8 when it should be more like 2+2+2+2=8serious123
January 15, 2013
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Desires, like ideas, are intentional; they point to something, like signs. - Peter Kreeft
Mung
January 14, 2013
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'Look, science isn’t for everyone. Finger painting may be more your speed.' 'Painting by numbers', Joe. Give RB some technical credit. It's why I call myself, Axel....Axel
January 12, 2013
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onlooker did an internet search on my name "Mung" and in it found something so objectionable that she felt she could refuse all intellectual discourse from anyone using the name "Mung." Not a rational response, to be sure. But it served her purposes. Any excuse will do.Mung
January 11, 2013
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Mung, would you please stop quoting facts?! It makes it so uncomfortable for our recalcitrant materialist friends. ---- BTW, I love your #1396. What say ye, onlooker, will you take up the challenge?Eric Anderson
January 11, 2013
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