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Must CSI Include the Probabilities of All Natural Processes — Known and Unknown?

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Over on another thread, there has been some discussion (among other things) about whether the concept of CSI must include a calculation of probabilities under all natural processes.  There are a number of interesting issues relating to CSI that might be worth exploring in more detail (including Learned Hand’s comments @47 of that thread, and the issues I mentioned @139).

For now, however, I want to simply flag an issue that has been harped on for years by various individuals (Liddle, ribczynski, and in the recent thread, keith s and wd400).  In summary, the argument is that without knowing all the probabilities of all possible natural processes we cannot ever be certain that some natural process didn’t produce the biological system in question, say, the bacterial flagellum.  And since we cannot be certain that some natural process didn’t do it, then we cannot ever be certain that it was designed.

The primary problem with such an argument is that it pretends to deal in certainties — exhausting all possible natural processes, known and unknown, that might have produced such a system.  In practice, it is essentially a claim that unless we are omniscient, we can never conclude design.  Apart from the wildly one-sided approach to such a position, it ignores the fact that intelligent design is about drawing reasonable inferences.  No-one has ever claimed to be able to do an exhaustive analysis of all possible natural causes, including those that haven’t been well defined or even thought up yet.  Nor does any branch of science proceed on such a basis.  Rather, we draw upon what we do know, the processes that we are aware of, and then make reasonable inferences.  That is why it is called a “design inference,” not a “design deduction” or an “exhaust-all-other-possibilities-before-we-can-say-anything” approach.  The inference to design operates, as does all reasonable scientific effort, on the basis of known processes.

Part of the discussion on the prior thread has focused on whether a natural process, like Darwinian evolution, has any reasonable probability of producing a complex, functional biological structure such as the bacterial flagellum within the resources of the known universe.  For those who don’t have the time or the stomach to wade through all the comments in the prior thread, I offer the following more succinct summary of this particular issue, in the form of a hypothetical (but, unfortunately, very true to life) conversation between an ID Proponent and a Darwinist:

ID Proponent:  Everyone from Darwin to Dawkins acknowledges that many biological systems appear designed.  Nevertheless, rather than just assuming design, in order to be scrupulously careful in our analysis we are also going to examine known natural processes to see if they have a realistic chance of forming such biological systems given the resources of the known universe.  [ID Proponent adds additional details about specification, etc., and then says:]  We’ll call this concept CSI.  Now when we look at such biological systems, say, the bacterial flagellum, and do some basic calculations on even the most fundamental informational structures required to construct the system, it appears the system contains CSI.

Darwinist:  Wait, wait!  Your calculation of CSI must include all known natural processes.  You forgot to include in your calculation my theory, which is that random mutations can be selected and preserved over time to form more complex and more functional structures.  We don’t need to form things all at once.  The bacterial flagellum came about through slight, successive changes.

ID Proponent:  Sure.  I’m happy to include known natural processes.  Have we ever seen something like a bacterial flagellum arise through Darwinian evolution?

Darwinist: No.  But that is only because it takes too long.  Indeed, my theory includes the idea that it takes so long that we shouldn’t expect to see such systems arising.  Or, alternatively, under a version called “punctuated equilibrium” that it happens quickly and in rare, largely unobserved situations.  In either case, we should not expect to see it happen.

ID Proponent:  Um, that seems pretty convenient, doesn’t it?  But OK.  Let’s include the probabilities of such a system coming about through Darwinian evolution.  What are the odds of the bacterial flagellum arising through your theory of Darwinian evolution?

Darwinist:  No-one knows.  We can’t do the calculation.

ID Proponent:  Well if there is no well-recognized way of calculating the probabilities of Darwinian evolution producing the bacterial flagellum, then I suppose I can’t calculate it either.  However, that . . .

Darwinist:  Aha!  I knew it.  You can’t do the calculation!  Therefore, your CSI concept is bunk and I win.

ID proponent:  Hold on just a minute, let me finish.  Let’s think through this.  You are telling me that I need to take into account the probabilities of your theory producing the bacterial flagellum, and then you say that under your theory you don’t know what the probabilities are?  So what do you want me to include?  After all, it is your theory, not mine.  I am only interested in known natural processes, so if we don’t know whether your theory has any reasonable probability of producing the system in question then there is nothing to include.  At most, I guess we could add a caveat to our calculations that our number doesn’t include the probabilities of Darwinian evolution because no-one knows what those probabilities are.  Would that make you happy?

Darwinist:  No, you must include a calculation of probabilities under Darwinian evolution in order for your concept of CSI to be valid.  Otherwise, CSI is bunk.  You said you were going to include all natural processes in your calculation.

ID Proponent:  As I said, I am willing to include in CSI the probabilities of all known natural processes.  But I am not going to make up probabilities for some unknown, unconfirmed, process.  Again, if you have some details to offer about your theory that would allow us to include it in the calculation, I’m happy to do so.

Darwinist:  Nope.  Can’t be done.  I’m not going to tell you what the probabilities are under my theory.  But if you want to critique my theory and show that my theory isn’t plausible, you’ll have to come up with the probabilities of my theory on your own.

ID Proponent:  Hang on.  If I want to critique your theory I have to add some details to your theory that it currently doesn’t have?  Shouldn’t you be interested in knowing whether your theory has any reasonable probability of producing something like the bacterial flagellum?  Shouldn’t Darwinist theorists be anxiously and studiously analyzing what reasonable probabilities Darwinian evolution can overcome, what it can be expected to produce given the resources of the known universe, the “edge of evolution” so to speak?

Darwinist:  We don’t need to provide any such calculations because we believe Darwinian evolution did it.  And if you can’t provide the calculations for our theory then you can’t critique our theory.  Therefore your idea of CSI is bunk and we win!

 

Comments
The essential confusion of ID is the assumption that there are two different types of causes in the world. ID calls the first type of cause "natural causes", meaning "causes that proceed according physical law". The second type of cause it calls "intelligent causes", which are supposed not to follow physical law. ID attempts to show that certain features of the universe cannot have arisen by means of "natural causes", and this supposedly justifies the conclusion that these features are best explained by "intelligent causes". The mistake, of course, is the assumption that there is any such thing as a cause that somehow transcends physical cause. ID often refers to physical processes as "unguided", implying that in contrast "intelligent causes" are "guided" by something that is not itself a physical process. But of course this notion that intelligent actions of living things transcend physical cause is nothing but a metaphysical assumption - empirically untestable, and highly controversial. The fact that ID is predicated on the reality of this dualism means that ID is an exercise in metaphysics and nothing more. Once you remove this metaphysical assumption from ID, what ID is left with is "Certain features of the universe cannot currently be explained by means of any known cause. Therefore, some other, currently unknown cause must be responsible".RDFish
November 27, 2014
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chi = – log2 [ 10 ^ –120 * phi~S(T) * P(T|H) ] Thought P(T|H) was supposed to essentially represent the length of the string, and the probability of it occurring randomly. So is P(T|H) a probability distribution or not?Zachriel
November 27, 2014
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Pachy:
Joe, your comments in numbers 50 and 58 further confirm your belief in and adherence to special creation
Perhaps in your very limited mind. Unfortunately that means nothing to the rest of the world.Joe
November 27, 2014
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Pachy
Joe, you’re accusing Keith and Daniel of things that aren’t true
It is true and evidenced by their comments. OTOH you cannot make your case. Go figureJoe
November 27, 2014
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Barry, I see that you've reneged on your final warning to Joe even though he continues to be as rude as ever.Pachyaena
November 27, 2014
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Joe sneered: "Are keith and Daniel that ignorant that they don’t realize that science is a tentative enterprise and all scientific inferences of today are open to falsification from scientific discoveries of tomorrow? Really?" Joe, you're accusing Keith and Daniel of things that aren't true and your accusations are just more of your diversionary tactics that have nothing to do with whether CSI is real and calculable, and I seriously doubt that you or any other IDer will be able to establish that CSI is real and calculable tomorrow or any other day in the future.Pachyaena
November 27, 2014
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Moose DR said: "The definition of CSI, therefore, is not contingent upon how the CSI came to be." That completely contradicts what Joe has said many times. Joe claims that CSI (and ID overall) is "all about origins". I have never seen another IDer say that Joe is wrong, and I've been looking for a long time.Pachyaena
November 27, 2014
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Barry, since you IDers rely on Dembski's CSI claims and since Dembski's claims are worthless, you really shouldn't sneer at non-IDers who point that out. Instead, you should be sneering at Dembski, and at yourselves for swallowing and promoting worthless claims.Pachyaena
November 27, 2014
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Joe, your comments in numbers 50 and 58 further confirm your belief in and adherence to special creation - young earth creationism. From your YEC position, will you explain all of the details of special creation, and how all of the history of the earth, including every life form that has ever existed, occurred in a 6,000 year time span?Pachyaena
November 27, 2014
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mung said: "There are no derivatives of CSI." A couple of questions to mung and all other IDers: Are CSI, FSCO/I, dFSCI, and FSC exactly the same thing? Are fits and bits exactly the same thing?Pachyaena
November 27, 2014
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45 kairosfocus November 26, 2014 at 4:57 am KS, description is not obsession. When we see clear evidence of objector responsiveness to evidence, fact, logic etc we will have grounds to hope that we are not dealing with attempts to dominate thought without reference to truth, right etc. And when we see clear evidence of objectors policing their ranks regarding the abusive and falsely accusatory, that hope will move to a higher level. When we see some evidence that the accusatory and patently false narratives on the roots, structure and motivations in design thought are repudiated, we will have reason to believe that we have moved beyond a ruthless agit-prop attack and enabling by those who should know and do better. KF --------------------------------- KF, you do exactly what you accuse others of and you do it in spades. I doubt that it's possible to be a more willfully dishonest, domineering, abusive, enabling, illogical, fact-less, evidence-less, obsessive, slanderous, low, wrong, ruthlessly attacking, patently falsely accusatory hypocrite than you are.Pachyaena
November 27, 2014
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Test post.Pachyaena
November 27, 2014
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keith s @43: I thought that might be the Dembski quote you were referring to. I haven't talked to him personally about this issue, so I can't say whether he ever "admitted the attempt failed." The quote you provided @43 certainly doesn't say that. He simply says that his example "doesn't fit the bill." Meaning, presumably, that the bacterial flagellum is too complex to be "simple enough on which the probability calculation can be convincingly performed." What you don't seem to grasp, I fear, is that more functional complexity does not mean that the calculation would run in favor of something like Darwinian evolution. Quite the contrary. We're right back to the ridiculous argument you've been making all along. Namely, because no-one knows how to run a probability calculation with precision on something like the bacterial flagellum, that we therefore cannot draw any reasonable inferences regarding the origin of the bacterial flagellum. That is nonsense. Let's take a single component or a few components and run some basic calculations on them. And they clearly exceed the probability bound and contain CSI. Then we add more complexity -- an astonishing amount more -- to the point that we can't even do the calculation. Any rational person would quickly realize that that addition of complexity adds to the combinatorial problem Darwinian evolution has to overcome. But in an unbelievable manifestation of twisted logic the Darwinist says: "Aha, now it is so complex that no-one can run a calculation. So, therefore, you can't prove that my (vague, general, unspecific, wholly-lacking-in-details) theory about random mutations and natural selection couldn't have done it." Let's cut to the chase: Is there anything at all -- any system you can imagine, any string of characters, any functional machine -- that Darwinian evolution would not reasonably be expected to produce within the resources of the known universe? Is there anything at all beyond its powers?Eric Anderson
November 26, 2014
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The nested hierarchy allows us to rule out special creation,
That is incorrect and demonstrates ignorance of nested hierarchies. Linnean Taxonomy if based on the the hypothesis of a common design via a special creation.Joe
November 26, 2014
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As for your imagined conversation, it ignores the strong evidence for branching descent, which provides us the important historical context necessary for understanding organic history.
Family trees are examples of branching descent. There isn't anything with family trees that supports your claims.Joe
November 26, 2014
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Zachriel:
Unguided evolution can produce a vast number of different objective nested hierarchies.
LoL! Humans produce nested hierarchies.Joe
November 26, 2014
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I can speak English well enough, and am pretty good a math too. However, I find it very difficult to extract any meaning from your posts (littered, as they are, with your own acronyms two dollar words that mean nothing and unlinked clauses). This is a case in point
SB 4: Thus, if we take the Dembski 2005 expression, and apply the above we see: Chi = – log2[10^120 ·phi_S(T)·P(T|H)] Becomes: Chi = I_p – [Threshold]
What? You just blythly replaced p(T|H) for an unrelated probability. Whatever you now do with "Chi" you aren't testing any biologically relevant hyptothesis (which is, I guess, what you mean by all this needle in a haystack business). I don't know how to say this: if you want you ideas to be taken seriously then you should carefully explain them in plan English. As it stands, I scroll past your comments at about the same rate I do BA's, as they are as likely to contain a meaningful contribution.wd400
November 26, 2014
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Mung: If intelligent designers can produce trillions of objective nested hierarchies, and unguided evolution can produce only a single objective nested hierarchy, then it is reasonable to infer that intelligent design is a better explanation than unguided evolution for any give ONH. Your premise is incorrect. Unguided evolution can produce a vast number of different objective nested hierarchies. There is a great deal of contingency in evolution. The nested hierarchy allows us to rule out special creation, but not guided evolution.Zachriel
November 26, 2014
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Eric Anderson: Must CSI Include the Probabilities of All Natural Processes — Known and Unknown? Um, you forgot the formula for CSI. Dembski's is chi = – log2 [ 10 ^ –120 * phi~S(T) * P(T|H) ] Is that what we are using? If so, then it's important to understand that phi~S(T) and P(T|H) must be independent clauses. The latter is usually construed to mean some sort of probability distribution, not every possible natural process. As for your imagined conversation, it ignores the strong evidence for branching descent, which provides us the important historical context necessary for understanding organic history. You can always point to areas of history we don't understand, but that doesn't undermine the overall pattern. If we can show complex adaptation in many cases, we don't have to have evidence in every single case, much less make some sort of probability calculation.Zachriel
November 26, 2014
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PS: That is also why we must point to OOL in Darwin's pond or the like. The probability hyps at work there are not in serious doubt, those of phys and chem with thermodynamics key player. The vNSR self replication facility needs to be accounted for, and there is nothing in sight to do so. OOL is the root of the ToL and any attempt to evade it boils down to major question begging.kairosfocus
November 26, 2014
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Joe, a minute. The numbers on the config spaces vs the accessible resources on sol system or observed cosmos make a hollow boast of such appeals to time. KFkairosfocus
November 26, 2014
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kairosfocus:
Joe, if there were mechanisms that drastically reduced the odds of OOL or origin of major body plans by creating 100 – 1,000 kbits or 10 – 100+ mn bits of novel genetic info on resources available, they should be readily observable.
Absolutely, but our opponents love to hide behind the curtain of father time. The sad part is they think that is scientific.Joe
November 26, 2014
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F/N: I hope, post Mung's devastating extension of the Orgel quote, those who were snidely and mockingly dismissive of the summary term FSCO/I are having second thoughts. I trust, on seeing how Orgel readily accepts that the y/n q chain is a first level info metric, they will revise their dismissal of someone who in another life actually taught telecommunications (to the point where last week my former student and now minister of Comms and works etc who has that portfolio here, reminded me that I taught t/comms to him) and taught digital electronics might actually have an inkling on such things. No concessions to IDiots message domination rhetorical tactics have plainly back-fired. Gotta go get ready for a meeting. KFkairosfocus
November 26, 2014
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Joe, if there were mechanisms that drastically reduced the odds of OOL or origin of major body plans by creating 100 - 1,000 kbits or 10 - 100+ mn bits of novel genetic info on resources available, they should be readily observable. When the elephant is not seen in the room, it is strong evidence one is not there. And again, scientific knowledge is cumulative and revisable on fresh evidence but is constrained by evidence already in hand. On that evidence, we have vera causa support for design as cause of FSCO/I which means it should be at the table for serious consideration. We ONLY have such evidence for design as source of FSCO/I, on trillions of cases observed. So in fact what is well supported, for ideological reasons inadvertently exposed by Lewontin et al, is suppressed in favour of what fits a dominant school of thought's favoured narrative. Message domination, not cogent inductive logic, seems to be ruling the roost for establishment science, science education, a lot of the media, and in many sectors of the Internet. And now, here at UD we are facing a major push. KFkairosfocus
November 26, 2014
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If Dembski wants to avoid false positives, then P(T|H) must account for every hypothesis that might push it above the UPB.
There aren't any such hypotheses to account for. Obviously you have no idea what you are spewing.Joe
November 26, 2014
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wd400:
I thought the point of CSI was to show evolutionary processes couldn’t create some features of biology.
Don't think. CSI is an argument against UNGUIDED evolution. And no one can demonstrate unguided evolution producing CSI. Go figureJoe
November 26, 2014
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KS, description is not obsession. When we see clear evidence of objector responsiveness to evidence, fact, logic etc we will have grounds to hope that we are not dealing with attempts to dominate thought without reference to truth, right etc. And when we see clear evidence of objectors policing their ranks regarding the abusive and falsely accusatory, that hope will move to a higher level. When we see some evidence that the accusatory and patently false narratives on the roots, structure and motivations in design thought are repudiated, we will have reason to believe that we have moved beyond a ruthless agit-prop attack and enabling by those who should know and do better. KFkairosfocus
November 26, 2014
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WD400: It seems we no speaka da Mathe-matics joins no speaka da Ingles. My "strange beliefs" in the power of log transforms are: SB 1: Oh, old Mr Smith must have seriously misled me when he taught me that logs are exponents of a base, base^power = number, so that laws of indices apply to logs. SB 2: As a direct consequence of SB 1, log (A*B*C) = log A + Log B + log C SB 3: even weirder, I believed the information theory tradition dating to Hartley et al, that (on a posteriori probability being 1] identified and used logs of inverted probabilities as information metrics: >> . . . Ip = - log p, in bits if the base is 2. That is where the now familiar unit, the bit, comes from. Where we may observe from say -- as just one of many examples of a standard result -- Principles of Comm Systems, 2nd edn, Taub and Schilling (McGraw Hill, 1986), p. 512, Sect. 13.2: Let us consider a communication system in which the allowable messages are m1, m2, . . ., with probabilities of occurrence p1, p2, . . . . Of course p1 + p2 + . . . = 1. Let the transmitter select message mk of probability pk; let us further assume that the receiver has correctly identified the message [[--> My nb: i.e. the a posteriori probability . . . is 1]. Then we shall say, by way of definition of the term information, that the system has communicated an amount of information Ik given by I_k = (def) log_2 1/p_k (13.2-1) >> SB 4: Thus, if we take the Dembski 2005 expression, and apply the above we see: Chi = – log2[10^120 ·phi_S(T)·P(T|H)] Becomes: Chi = I_p - [Threshold] And we may apply a reasonable extension to identify functional specificity of the information [through a dummy variable S], and a reasonable solar system (or cosmic scope) to set up a metric model that can be tested empirically in its own right: Chi_500 = I*S - 500, bits beyond the solar system threshold On trillions of cases, it is known to be highly reliable, for reasons linked to the needle in haystack search challenge for blind chance and mechanical necessity involving the 10^57 atoms of our solar system at 10^14 tries/s, and for 10^17 s. Where, I trust the extended Orgel cite HT Mung will now be acknowledged as giving support to my longstanding point that state-specification by a chain of Y/N q's is a reasonable info metric. Which is actually closely tied to a way of measuring info used by Shannon in his paper of 1948 and which I first met in basic digital electronics when we were introduced to the notion that an on/off switch or hi/lo value for an RS/D/JK latch or flipflop, or N/S for a magnetic naterial etc. store one bit each. Though, I should expect on track record, no concessions message dominance tactics to continue. Please, think again. KFkairosfocus
November 26, 2014
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Eric:
By the way, I wasn’t able to track down the Dembski quote you kept referring to on the other thread in which he refused to calculate the probabilities of the bacterial flagellum arising through purely natural processes. Were you able to find the quote? Less germane, but I’m curious to see his statement.
He didn't refuse to do the calculation. He actually tried to do it in No Free Lunch, but he made the same error you're making: treating the system in question as a "discrete combinatorial object" (see the quote above). Anyway, he later admitted that the attempt failed. Here's the comment; note that it is the same infamous comment in which Dembski disavowed the explanatory filter:
I wish I had time to respond adequately to this thread, but I’ve got a book to deliver to my publisher January 1 — so I don’t. Briefly: (1) I’ve pretty much dispensed with the EF. It suggests that chance, necessity, and design are mutually exclusive. They are not. Straight CSI is clearer as a criterion for design detection. (2) The challenge for determining whether a biological structure exhibits CSI is to find one that’s simple enough on which the probability calculation can be convincingly performed but complex enough so that it does indeed exhibit CSI. The example in NFL ch. 5 doesn’t fit the bill. The example from Doug Axe in ch. 7 of THE DESIGN OF LIFE (www.thedesignoflife.net) is much stronger. (3) As for the applicability of CSI to biology, see the chapter on “assertibility” in my book THE DESIGN REVOLUTION. (4) For my most up-to-date treatment of CSI, see “Specification: The Pattern That Signifies Intelligence” at http://www.designinference.com. (5) There’s a paper Bob Marks and I just got accepted which shows that evolutionary search can never escape the CSI problem (even if, say, the flagellum was built by a selection-variation mechanism, CSI still had to be fed in).
keith s
November 26, 2014
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Learned Hand:
Dembski acknowledges this; as I recall (I can’t find the quote) he deals with it by pointing to irreducible complexity: if the thing couldn’t have evolved, then the evolutionary hypothesis is excluded, and CSI exists. (Which is a neat trick, but again rules out CSI as a design-detection tool; it’s circular if you’re assuming a priori that the subject is unevolvable.)
This may be the quote you're thinking of:
Consider therefore an irreducibly complex system whose irreducible core contains numerous diverse parts that are minimally complex relative to the minimal level of function they need to maintain. Such a system clearly resists the divide-and-conquer approach typical of Darwinian gradualism. Richard Dawkins has memorably described this gradualistic approach to achieving biological complexity as "climbing Mount Improbable." Climbing Mount Improbable requires taking a slow serpentine route up the backside of the mountain and avoiding precipices. For irreducibly complex systems that have numerous diverse parts and that exhibit the minimal level of complexity needed to retain a minimal level of function, such a gradual ascent up Mount Improbable is no longer possible. The mountain is, as it were, all one big precipice... An irreducibly complex system is a discrete combinatorial object. No Free Lunch, p. 290
keith s
November 25, 2014
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